Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: s1120 on January 02, 2021, 09:10:57 AM
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Ya, I know, they are cheap for a reason... But really.. Im tossing around getting a small bike like a dual sport for a summer house we have on Cape Cod mass.. Beating around the backroads, heading to the beach etc.. Looking around for older stuff its normally WAY over priced... scrap, or stolen/no paperwork. Spending 1500k for something brand new is not sounding bad.. Maintenance, and building the bike is no issue for me, and its not something that I really need to rely on for daily use, so waiting a week or so for parts is not a killer. [Guzzi Content :) ] Anyone have, or have ridden one??
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I have owned 2 CSC TT250's which are made by Zhongshen. I had a 2016 and again a 2019. It is nominally considered to be the cadillac of cheap chinese 250 enduros. It has the CG250 (229cc actually) motor, which is a clone of a 3rd world honda pushrod motor they never imported into the US, but developed for 3rd world countries. It seems folks in those countries never do preventative maintenance. They ride their bikes until they stop and then take them to a mechanic. Honda couldn't figure out why their OHC motors were failing until they learned this. They developed the CG motors to run on goo for oil. The rest of the bikes "look" good, but are cheap. It is possible they got cheaper between 16 and 19 due to trying to hold prices due to tarrifs. My 19 has 2300 miles and I have already replaced the chain, the battery needs replacing, and the tires will need replacing soon.
you get what you pay for. I paid $2200. You can get a Bashan Brozz for about $2000, or a Hawk for about $1500. The differences are things like balance shafts, switch quality, tach, brakes (drum or disc rear) and forks (conventional or upside down).
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this is the "wildguzzi" for cheap chinese enduros: http://www.chinariders.net/forumdisplay.php?f=101
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I have one, although I didn't buy it off Amazon, I got it from CSC. But essentially it is the same bike as a Hawk which you can get on Amazon. They are all made by Zonfg shen, one of China's biggest M/C mfgs. The TT250 from CSC is a bit higher spec, as it has better quality switch gear, full instrumentation including gas gage and digital RPMs, along with nice fluff like full LCD lighting, upside down gold forks, and cooler graphics. CSC sells theirs fully assembled and properly set up, and ready to ride. It literally comes shipped in a full sized wood crate, with gas in the tank, break the crate open, hit the starter and ride it out of the garage!
For all those extra's, it does cost hundreds more from CSC. Amazon type bikes like Hawks, are slightly more crude, and you do have to assemble and tune them yourself, but that's got to be fairly easy. The Hawk and CSC use all the same hardware and seem to be 90% identical. I have had mine for 3.5 years and have 2600 miles on it, and couldn't be much more pleased. Build quality is surprisingly high, motor is a 229cc Honda CG knock off, meaning it has pushrods and nut adjustable lifters, it's reported to be almost bullet proof, and so far mine has. Electric start, and a kick if you want, steel braided disks front and back, simple carb, and the CSC if 50 state compliant. Fairly peppy for 16hp, will run sixty plus on the highway, more is you change the rear sprocket, but it's in it's element 35-50 on any road, will handle easy to mid level off road without complaint. I really like how easy it is to ride, and I never have to think twice about it, it always starts right up and ready for fun. Feels lighter than it is, and I have had nothing loose up or fall off. Maintenance is super basic, I think it will last for decades. Parts are very inexpensive and easy to get. I expect it will last longer than I will! If you get one as well made as mine, I think it will be exactly what you're looking for.
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be careful, the hawk is not registerable in some states. some poor bastard just had his title revoked.
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We had spells of selling a variety of new china scooters & bikes as well as servicing them through the shop, depending upon who was doing mechanic work. In general, they work fine until they don't work. Then it's a matter of sourcing the right parts to fix them. If you can get the right parts, you're all set. if not, you're done. There isn't a whole lot of in-between. Doesn't matter if it's a 49cc moped/scooter, a 500 cc Hyasong (sp?) fake VRod or something in between. The dead bikes become parts bikes that quickly become less viable as each remaining good part disappears.
If you do have a close clone version, like one of the engines that are virtual copies of a 250 Honda rebel, sometimes parts will interchange. But you should plan to go to your preferred Honda dealership/source with the desired & correct Honda part numbers already in hand. If you call up, tell them you're working on a Chinese bike and ask if they'll help with parts, we've found that they probably won't.
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For $3,399, I'd have no issues owning and riding one of these...
2020 SSR Motorsports XF250 Dual Sport :cool: :thumb: :wink: :smiley:
(https://i.ibb.co/wKc0dkm/Screen-Shot-2021-01-02-at-9-38-11-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/wKc0dkm)
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These engines are why I'm not keen on the interesting motorcycles by Janus. Although they're American made, the engines come from an unknown Chinese company.
If only they could have adapted an engine from Tecumseh, or Briggs & Stratton.
https://janusmotorcycles.com/motorcycles/ (https://janusmotorcycles.com/motorcycles/)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.wp.com%2Fgoodsparkgarage.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F04%2FJanus-Goodspark-9.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
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...and so are these!! :grin: :wink: :laugh: ...and the list of small Chinese knock-off bikes goes on and on and on... :wink:
"Hell Hath No Fury...like a 50cc MotoPed with a 90cc Big Bore Kit!" :laugh: :grin: :shocked: :rolleyes:
(https://i.ibb.co/pJSwLQD/Screen-Shot-2021-01-02-at-9-55-50-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/pJSwLQD)
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These engines are why I'm not keen on the interesting motorcycles by Janus. Although they're American made, the engines come from an unknown Chinese company.
If only they could have adapted an engine from Tecumseh, or Briggs & Stratton.
https://janusmotorcycles.com/motorcycles/ (https://janusmotorcycles.com/motorcycles/)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.wp.com%2Fgoodsparkgarage.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F04%2FJanus-Goodspark-9.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
The engine used in Janus, is the exact same as used in the CSC 250s and Hawk. It's made by Zonfgshen, it's a 229cc push rod knock-off of the extremely well thought of Honda CG 125. The Zonfgshen motor has proven to be very good. All the parts are easily available through several Zongshen dist in the USA.
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B-Chad,
I'm thinking for the long haul.
I've got a couple of bikes, Italian and German, 50 to 70 years old, and I can still source parts through networks of collectors.
Zongfshen may have parts now, but in ten yrs? Some of us don't get a different bike every few years. Instead we buy and keep for decades.
Joe
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Alibaba has all kinds of bikes for well under $1KNot sure about how much shipping will be but for the cost I should stop looking as the temptation is great. :grin:
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I have owned 2 CSC TT250's which are made by Zhongshen. I had a 2016 and again a 2019. It is nominally considered to be the cadillac of cheap chinese 250 enduros. It has the CG250 (229cc actually) motor, which is a clone of a 3rd world honda pushrod motor they never imported into the US, but developed for 3rd world countries. It seems folks in those countries never do preventative maintenance. They ride their bikes until they stop and then take them to a mechanic. Honda couldn't figure out why their OHC motors were failing until they learned this. They developed the CG motors to run on goo for oil. The rest of the bikes "look" good, but are cheap. It is possible they got cheaper between 16 and 19 due to trying to hold prices due to tarrifs. My 19 has 2300 miles and I have already replaced the chain, the battery needs replacing, and the tires will need replacing soon.
you get what you pay for. I paid $2200. You can get a Bashan Brozz for about $2000, or a Hawk for about $1500. The differences are things like balance shafts, switch quality, tach, brakes (drum or disc rear) and forks (conventional or upside down).
I spent quite a bit of time in China over the last 10 years I can confirm that, I never saw one bike that looked like it was being cared for.
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For $3,399, I'd have no issues owning and riding one of these...
2020 SSR Motorsports XF250 Dual Sport :cool: :thumb: :wink: :smiley:
(https://i.ibb.co/wKc0dkm/Screen-Shot-2021-01-02-at-9-38-11-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/wKc0dkm)
Looks nice, but for the cost your getting close to what you can get a royal Enfield for.
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B-Chad,
I'm thinking for the long haul.
I've got a couple of bikes, Italian and German, 50 to 70 years old, and I can still source parts through networks of collectors.
Zongfshen may have parts now, but in ten yrs? Some of us don't get a different bike every few years. Instead we buy and keep for decades.
Joe
Ok, but look at it this way. These bikes have been available in the US for at least 5 years, perhaps considerably longer. I can get literally get ANY part within a couple of days, that's been the case for years already. Zongshen makes huge numbers of these bikes and motors. I'm fairly certain they have made at least tens of thousands more units than Gilera, Benelli or BMW ever did. I strongly suspect that in 30 years it will be far easier to get Zongshen parts, than it ever has been to get Gilera/Benelli parts. I'm only talking about the motor, getting parts made by Janus in 30 years, good luck!
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be careful, the hawk is not registerable in some states. some poor bastard just had his title revoked.
They SAY it can be registerable in NY... not sure how I would prove that.
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Yes, I'm biased. That out of the way, what I did was put the bike money in cash and watch the sales outlets like a hawk. :grin: Eventually both my XT250 and DR650 came up for sale, used and in like new condition, for a decent price . I would have no trouble selling either bike and getting my money back, even after several years of use. Spend a little more, get quality.
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$7,495 or $7,495 for a Janus, I don't think so. I paid less than that for my left over 2019 V7lll. Dealer fees pushed it up some but still a much better, bigger motorcycle for not much more money. I have a Chinese Honda clone motor on my rototiller. Very reliable and dependable, from Harbor Freight.
kk
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Chinariders.com
https://www.chinariders.net
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4D1r23bGGk
I was thinking of buying A hawk or the CSC 250, but after thinking I figured I pay a little more and find a used KLX250 because what i read on it being bullet proof and all. I found a clean 2009 with around 5k on it.The bike ran fine until one day on the highway doing around 65 it didn't, long story short it ate a valve, killing the piston and head, so I found a used head off a KLX300 and put a Bili Blue 351 kit in it. Cost a few bucks(well a lot of bucks) to fix but now it is much better in the power department but I may have saved a lot of money if I bought the Hawk or maybe a better KLX250. :undecided:
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I have a $3300 SSR Buccaneer 250i, which has been very satisfactory. It is a scrambler of the old style (but with modern brakes and electronics). It is not available on Amazon, but instead is found at SSR dealers. It is 50-state licenseable and naturally comes prepped and ready to ride.
I don't know if what I have is outside the range that you're considering spending. But I would recommend paying attention to the company that manufacturers the motor in any bike you get. Lifan has made the 250cc Virago clone in my bike for many years; the parts are completely interchangeable as far as anyone has pursued the matter. It has been claimed that Lifan bought the rights and/or blueprints from Yamaha. (The motorcycle itself was made by Longia.)
Lifan now also manufacturers complete motorcycles. Here is one that might better fit the budget you have in mind on Amazon, for $2000, shipped:
https://smile.amazon.com/X-Pro-200cc-Motorcycle-Adult-Street/dp/B07V1Z1YRH/ref=mp_s_a_1_36?dchild=1&keywords=buccaneer+250+motorcycle&qid=1609604926&sr=8-36
(https://smile.amazon.com/X-Pro-200cc-Motorcycle-Adult-Street/dp/B07V1Z1YRH/ref=mp_s_a_1_36?dchild=1&keywords=buccaneer+250+motorcycle&qid=1609604926&sr=8-36)
I don't know if it is registerable in all 50 states. Since it is a Lifan, I would have no qualms about buying one.
Moto
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This at $2,050 with shipping to me...would only do 27mph till a carb specialist rebuilt it....now does 55...
(https://i.ibb.co/kXC9Rb7/D15512-E7-05-E0-4-FF8-9789-CE561-ECF0381.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kXC9Rb7)
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And here is someone trying to kill a hawk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohcz22-wTY8
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Ok, but look at it this way. These bikes have been available in the US for at least 5 years, perhaps considerably longer. I can get literally get ANY part within a couple of days, that's been the case for years already. Zongshen makes huge numbers of these bikes and motors. I'm fairly certain they have made at least tens of thousands more units than Gilera, Benelli or BMW ever did. I strongly suspect that in 30 years it will be far easier to get Zongshen parts, than it ever has been to get Gilera/Benelli parts. I'm only talking about the motor, getting parts made by Janus in 30 years, good luck!
You could easily be right. After all, China is on the way to surpassing the US as the dominant economy.
Zongshen may end up as the new Honda.
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Yes, I'm biased. That out of the way, what I did was put the bike money in cash and watch the sales outlets like a hawk. :grin: Eventually both my XT250 and DR650 came up for sale, used and in like new condition, for a decent price . I would have no trouble selling either bike and getting my money back, even after several years of use. Spend a little more, get quality.
Hey Shorty,
Tell me how you like the Yamaha please?
Enough motor to make it fun?
Good enough on the trails?
Thanks,
inditx
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Hey Shorty,
Tell me how you like the Yamaha please?
Enough motor to make it fun?
Good enough on the trails?
Thanks,
inditx
Howdy inditx. The newer FI XT250s start any time the battery is up to snuff. No fuss or choke. Keeping in mind I weigh over 250, the bike is a delight on back roads. I have had it to indicated 75 mph on a flat road on a windless day; it has legs. I would not hold it above about 60-65 for any length of time. The suspension is good for cow trailing, with a very low first gear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cD7D4eCehk It does not have the proper suspension for enduro work or big jumps. It has a 5 speed, where the older XT225s had a 6 speed. I would like a better rear shock (maybe I have the preload too stiff?) I like the light weight, being able to flat foot it (30 inch inseam), and the ability to explore dirt roads and easy trails with confidence.
(https://i.ibb.co/4WC3cNp/XT250-Queen-Wilhomena-Lodge.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4WC3cNp)
Here's an article about the older XT225 : http://bcanet.co.uk/bikesite/big_bloke_on_a_girl.htm
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Thanks Shorty, that’s what I was wanting to hear.
Looking at an 09 that is carbed but might be ok still.
inditx
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Don't think anyone mentioned GPX yet, https://gpxmoto.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=5
They have a good selection of 4 stroke or 2 stroke, air cooled or water cooled, smaller wheels vs. normal sized wheels, etc.
Each time I've looked into bikes like this I end up with the best idea is a nice used Japanese bike. :laugh:
I start off looking at ~$1200 Amazon bikes. Mostly a bunch of crap parts, poorly designed, poorly assembled, so would require a lot of work to sort out and keep running well.
Then look at the Hawk at around $1500, which is a wee bit better than the $1000-$1200 bikes, but again, lots of low quality/design parts thrown together.
Then next thoughts go to the CSC TT250 at around $2300. US importer, stands behind their products, a bit more picky about all the parts and how they work together, very responsive with parts and upgrades. So with this one it is more likely to work OK from the start, and just some cheap stuff to deal with as you go (like pathetic quality chain). So a bike you can buy ride and it will need work/attention at about the level as a ~20 year old Japanese bike. But as for fun riding, hum, not that great.
So then up to GPX, the XTR T4 250 LC 21x18 is $3100, US importer with parts/support, finally a bike that actually works and is fun to ride. But wait a minute, now you are at $3100 and really you are still getting a not so great quality Chinese bike.
Then over to craigslist, find a Yamaha XT225 with 900 miles on it and asking $2500. Or wow a DRZ-400 for $1800. If you really want to get dirt serious, several 250cc 2 stroke dirt bikes for under $2500.
A friend of a friend got their kid one of the $1100 ish Amazon bikes ... dad not so mechanically inclined, neither is his kid ... they had a good time uncrating it and sorting out how to get it together ... watching youtube videos ... I think it took them 2 weekends to get it all together (vs. the 2 hr times on youtube, but they weren't in a rush, didn't spend all day on it, etc). It worked for ~4-6 weeks, then had problems, has now sat for 3 months as they don't really know how to sort out the problem(s) and don't want to spend money paying someone to fix it. Maybe one day they will spend a few more weekends together and get it sorted out. Any maybe that dad/son bonding time is pretty cool and worth $1100. :grin: Maybe this will inspire the kid to gain some mechanical skills/knowledge. Who knows. But certainly not the best plan for a cheap fun bike to ride around on for years and years.
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These engines are why I'm not keen on the interesting motorcycles by Janus. Although they're American made, the engines come from an unknown Chinese company.
If only they could have adapted an engine from Tecumseh, or Briggs & Stratton.
I think Tecumseh has been gone for a few years now. I seem to remember they went broke trying to compete on price with the Chinese small engine manufacturers (which Honda, B&S, and Kohler really don't try to do). IIRC Ridley motorcycles did use an adapted B&S Vanguard V-twin.
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I think Tecumseh has been gone for a few years now. I seem to remember they went broke trying to compete on price with the Chinese small engine manufacturers (which Honda, B&S, and Kohler really don't try to do). IIRC Ridley motorcycles did use an adapted B&S Vanguard V-twin.
Rode with a guy with a Ridley this summer. Kinda a cool bike, and It does look to be a Briggs or other industrial V twin engine .
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I think Tecumseh has been gone for a few years now. I seem to remember they went broke trying to compete on price with the Chinese small engine manufacturers (which Honda, B&S, and Kohler really don't try to do). IIRC Ridley motorcycles did use an adapted B&S Vanguard V-twin.
Last I heard, Tecumseh was still in business, but just a shell of its former proud self. Now putting Asian engines in its machines.
The old Tecumseh side valve snowblower engines used to very popular w the kart racers.
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Don't think anyone mentioned GPX yet, https://gpxmoto.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=5
They have a good selection of 4 stroke or 2 stroke, air cooled or water cooled, smaller wheels vs. normal sized wheels, etc.
Each time I've looked into bikes like this I end up with the best idea is a nice used Japanese bike. :laugh:
I start off looking at ~$1200 Amazon bikes. Mostly a bunch of crap parts, poorly designed, poorly assembled, so would require a lot of work to sort out and keep running well.
Then look at the Hawk at around $1500, which is a wee bit better than the $1000-$1200 bikes, but again, lots of low quality/design parts thrown together.
Then next thoughts go to the CSC TT250 at around $2300. US importer, stands behind their products, a bit more picky about all the parts and how they work together, very responsive with parts and upgrades. So with this one it is more likely to work OK from the start, and just some cheap stuff to deal with as you go (like pathetic quality chain). So a bike you can buy ride and it will need work/attention at about the level as a ~20 year old Japanese bike. But as for fun riding, hum, not that great.
So then up to GPX, the XTR T4 250 LC 21x18 is $3100, US importer with parts/support, finally a bike that actually works and is fun to ride. But wait a minute, now you are at $3100 and really you are still getting a not so great quality Chinese bike.
Then over to craigslist, find a Yamaha XT225 with 900 miles on it and asking $2500. Or wow a DRZ-400 for $1800. If you really want to get dirt serious, several 250cc 2 stroke dirt bikes for under $2500.
A friend of a friend got their kid one of the $1100 ish Amazon bikes ... dad not so mechanically inclined, neither is his kid ... they had a good time uncrating it and sorting out how to get it together ... watching youtube videos ... I think it took them 2 weekends to get it all together (vs. the 2 hr times on youtube, but they weren't in a rush, didn't spend all day on it, etc). It worked for ~4-6 weeks, then had problems, has now sat for 3 months as they don't really know how to sort out the problem(s) and don't want to spend money paying someone to fix it. Maybe one day they will spend a few more weekends together and get it sorted out. Any maybe that dad/son bonding time is pretty cool and worth $1100. :grin: Maybe this will inspire the kid to gain some mechanical skills/knowledge. Who knows. But certainly not the best plan for a cheap fun bike to ride around on for years and years.
I'm guessing you have not spent much time on a CSC 250? I have 2600 miles on one I bought new a few years back, and have had exactly ZERO parts break or fail. I ride it 90% on the road, I'm 250lbs and I constantly beat on it. Chain still working fine, maybe I'll need a new one next summer, maybe not, but if I do it will only eat up $30.
I don't ride motorcross with it, but I do take it off road and have fun, and then ride it home a 60mph, and it's happy as a clam.
My point is, it's built far better than you are giving it credit for. Is it equal to a Yamaha XT250? No, but for $2900 less, it is a hell of a lot closer than it should be!
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Tecumseh built good engines. I have one on my wood chipper. Runs great and quite powerful.
kk
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I’m going to go against the love for CSCs thus far. I bought one of the first round TT250s back when they were first releasing them. $1900 + freight/paperwork, talk about a deal! I’d been looking for a small side street and dirt road commuter. It wasn’t bad, it was mainly just ‘meh’. Lots of loose fasteners out of the crate. Fairly underpowered, but felt quicker than it was due to the light weight. Stock chain and battery were pretty lousy. Not amazing off road, but good enough for a $2k motorcycle. At the end of the day, the bike was fine, but I wished I’d bought a used DRZ or similar instead. Thrilled others are enjoying their TT250s though, and I’m hopeful the more recent models have just gotten better.
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Could not be more impressed with my G/F Kymco Spade 150 CC FI motorcycle. Reminds me of old standard MC of the 80's. Actually made in Taiwan but has corporate office in South Carolina. New $2700 with 2 year warranty. Runs Great for grocery getter.
(https://i.ibb.co/3vMDDZK/Shield-Install.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3vMDDZK)
(https://i.ibb.co/DV7DHM2/Small-Pic-Spade-150.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DV7DHM2)
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Could not be more impressed with my G/F Kymco Spade 150 CC FI motorcycle. Reminds me of old standard MC of the 80's. Actually made in Taiwan but has corporate office in South Carolina. New $2700 with 2 year warranty. Runs Great for grocery getter.
(https://i.ibb.co/3vMDDZK/Shield-Install.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3vMDDZK)
(https://i.ibb.co/DV7DHM2/Small-Pic-Spade-150.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DV7DHM2)
I've had the impression that Kymco was closer to the Japanese than the Chinese in terms of quality and support. No real reason I think this except what I've read on the interwebs, and the fact that Kymco actually has a dealer network. A couple of years ago I was at a local grocery store and they had a line of Chinese scooters for sale for $700. I wondered at the time where people who bought these thought they were going to get service on them, or if all the sales were to very self-sufficient people. Or it most buyers ever gave it a thought.
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We started her with a 300cc Kymco scooter and was so impressed moved her to the MC as the scooter was abit overwhelming for a novice rider. Dealers are about as plentiful as MG. Not saying much but parts are available and stone reliable with easy maintenance. They provided engines for both Honda and BMW mc's I had been told.