Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dimitri_Harkov on February 19, 2021, 01:32:40 PM
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Hello everyone,
I like nimbler bikes with a little less weight and always thought it would be nice if MG did a modern version of their V50 series.
As long as the 'old' V7 III was 'bottom' of their line, it didn't seem viable, as my vision of a modern V50 is one of a 175kg/48HP bike (386lbs/35kw).
That would have been much too close to the V7 III to make any sense.
But now: The gap to the 2021 V7 850 would be considerable.
Also, in areas with tiered mc license systems, the new V7 is now far beyond the critical 48HP mark, somewhat hampering access to the Guzzi drug for new(er) riders.
With a power-to-weight-ratio better than the V7 III and not a lot worse than the new V7, a new V50 would be a blast to drive and fill the gap nicely, in my opinion.
If there really is a gap, that is...
Therefore, I would like your opinions:
1) Do you think a new V50 would sell?
2) Would you buy one?
A bit more detail of what I had in mind:
Weight: 175kg/386lbs wet max
Power: 35kw/48HP max
Displacement: I called it a 'V50', but I really don't care. Whatever makes the power/weight figures work
Style/Ergonomics: Tried and testet V7 style? closer to the original V50s would work too of course, as would a second line of more modern looking ones (as seen with the new V7 stone vs. classic)
Other: An air-cooled V2 with shaft drive seems mandatory. But if they do a water-cooled one that looks, sounds and feels the part I wouldn't mind either
Cheers,
D.
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I’d buy a sub-400 lb. bike making 48 hp in a heartbeat. I just don’t think MG could make that happen with Euro 5 standards. My cynical nature could very well be overthinking here, but I’m suspecting their decision to go up to 850 cc had as much to do with people begging for more power as it does with growing emissions restrictions. I’m 150 lbs. I like air-cooled bikes that I can pick up, but that can also hold their own on the highway.
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Well, there are bikes with those figures + Euro 5 around, just no air cooled ones that I know of.
e.g.: https://www.brixton-motorcycles.com/models/crossfire-500?gclid=Cj0KCQiA4L2BBhCvARIsAO0SBdYuTLmU-Q8FPz4SP3QYuYToOXsk6wzCe8mss1fhNbWAsRvf6o2UljsaAnT8EALw_wcB
(Just some random bike - no replacement for a Guzzi)
I’m suspecting their decision to go up to 850 cc had as much to do with people begging for more power as much as it does with growing emissions restrictions.
Yeah, I think so too.
Maybe the supercharger is the way to go then?
Come on Moto Guzzi, show some spirit! If H-D can do it, how hard can it be? ;)
But yeah, I guess that's too much to wish for (both the original specs as well as a supercharged smaller displacement one to get the emissions right).
Cheers,
D.
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Come on Moto Guzzi, show some spirit! If H-D can do it, how hard can it be? ;)
How did that work out for Harley? :grin: Maybe the worst selling, least popular Harley ever...
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Oh sorry, I didn't mean any past H-D bikes with supercharger, but their current supercharger project.
Whatever that will be in the end: https://www.rideapart.com/news/485653/harley-supercharged-engine-latest-patent/
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The Harley Sprint was a force to be reckoned with in a couple classes of racing back in the day. They dominated. They are quite collectable today and bring decent dollars.
kk
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A lot of tiered liscensing systems also have a cpacity restriction around 650cc so the V7 was never elegible for it anyway. The chances of Guzzi making something price compedative are pretty slim. Although if you are looking at expanding the customer base asking a bunch of existing customers if they would buy it is missing the point IMO. Realistically Guzzi should probally be working on something electric if they want to susrvive not rehashing thier cheap and nasty from 40 years ago.
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remember, they only have the one factory. it seems to me that to produce a bike like that and sell it at a competitive price, they would have to turn to asia like royal enfield has done. i don't think it would sell very well in the US
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No
And
No
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No
And
No
Would have to agree with ol' footguzzi on this one... :laugh: :grin: :wink: :rolleyes: :shocked: :huh:
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Modern V50, Sleeve the cylinders smaller, get pistons, Done
Now go buy 100 V7 3's and make them.
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Nup.
When I can’t ride what I’ve got, I’ll die or buy a boat..
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I’m struggling to remember when the market wanted a less powerful version of a similar bike. Maybe the K75. I don’t think the v50 ever sold well at least here in the US, probably because you could buy a 16 valve Honda 750 for less money. We don’t have tiered licensing so any fool can buy a Hayabusa on credit.
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I’m struggling to remember when the market wanted a less powerful version of a similar bike. Maybe the K75. I don’t think the v50 ever sold well at least here in the US, probably because you could buy a 16 valve Honda 750 for less money. We don’t have tiered licensing so any fool can buy a Hayabusa on credit.
I would safely say (IMHO), the BMW K75 is not in the same class as the diminutive V50...(just say'in) :wink: :cool:
(https://i.ibb.co/kBT4yrv/Screen-Shot-2021-02-20-at-7-04-48-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/kBT4yrv)
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The Harley Sprint was a force to be reckoned with in a couple classes of racing back in the day. They dominated. They are quite collectable today and bring decent dollars.
kk
Well , sorta kinda . Those engines were a little different than the garden variety Sprint , the CRTT and its variants were more like the Aermacchi short stroke racing engines . Oh , not sure I would say they dominated :laugh:
Dusty
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Ok, I see a new V50 would not fare well, at least not in the US :)
I’m struggling to remember when the market wanted a less powerful version of a similar bike.
Like - always? Eg. Honda's CB line ever since had bikes from 125cc and below to 750 or 1000cc or more, and 5+ steps in between.
As most manufacturers have, really.
Or maybe there is a misunderstanding?
Modern V50, Sleeve the cylinders smaller, get pistons, Done
Now go buy 100 V7 3's and make them.
Then we would just have a bike with less power - that's not the point of the exercise.
But a bike with a power to weight ratio superior to the V7III, with 175kg/386lbs wet max.
A lot of tiered liscensing systems also have a cpacity restriction around 650cc so the V7 was never elegible for it anyway.
Oh, I was not aware of that. In our licensing system, the A2 limit is just 35kw tops and the bike may not exeed a certain power to weight ratio; but there is no limit to CC.
The chances of Guzzi making something price compedative are pretty slim
Yeah, I don't think that either.
But on the other hand: Guzzis were never priced competitively. At least not the last 20 years.
But if you want a Guzzi - you buy a Guzzi. And at least for the V7s, that worked in the past.
Guzzi should probally be working on something electric if they want to susrvive
I fully agree. One might not like the idea of the end of the combustion engine, but it will come, and soon.
Good that Piaggio is already delving into that area.
Thanks for the feedback guys
&
cheers,
D.
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I wish they would do it, but I could see it not making any sense.
Smaller, lighter bikes ... who would buy them.
Newer riders? Newer riders usually have no mechanic-ing skills so they need a strong dealer network, no go with MG. They are also often looking for cheap, so like a Honda Rebel 300. Can't see that customer getting a new MG instead. Then there are the new young enthusiastic crowd, they go buy Yamaha MT-07s, they would not buy a MG. So a brand new rider that appreciates classic Italian design? Small small number of people.
Older riders? Seems an 850cc these days is called a middle weight, so what experienced rider would want a ~500cc bike? Maybe someone wanting a lighter bike. But then there is that darn MT-07 again. Fast, fun, super reliable, low maintenance, plenty of Yamaha dealers around ... plenty in the used bike market ... new prices not bad either. So probably some Moto Guzzi guys wanting a lighter bike would buy them. How many in a year in the US? 500 bikes?
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And what would be the cost? In the moment they have one engine platform. This is good because making a lot of equal parts is cheap. Making this platform smaller (displacement) would not be significantly cheaper. Developing a new smaller platform and a new cheaper to produce frame would also need a lot of money. And at what prices could they sell such a bike? Similar to that of a Royal Enfied 650 twin? Go figure!
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You mean price per unit?
I'd say in the region of the V7 III seems fair, as they are close performance wise (the V50 even slightly better).
Let's say 7750€ in Germany?
No need to compete with the likes of the RE 650s price-wise.
This V50 concept would out-perform them significantly.
And Guzzis have always been a lot more expensive and sold none the less.
Of course I don't know if it were very expensive to develop a smaller engine from the existing tech.
I guess they could still re-use quite a lot of the parts.
Cheers,
D.
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In Germany the V7 III does not even appear on the list of the top 50 in 2020 (Jan. - Sept.). The best Guzzi was of course the V85 TT (35, 837 sold), but is was clearly outsold by the Enfield Continental 650 (32, 922 sold) . The new V7 850 Stone starts with €9100,-. This is about €2500 more than the Enfield and I think it is worth its money. How do you want to create an attractive motorcycle with 500 ccm with an otherwise similar layout that costs less than the Enfield 650? Constructed by Aprilia, build in Italy? In a way that Piaggio is able to earn money with this thing?
I think making the small Guzzi more competitive against Triumph and Kawasaki, which also are not exactly cheap, was the right decision. It is an attractive motorcycle in its own. People who want to ride a Guzzi are prepared to pay a bit more for "their" marque. I was.
Of course, realising that I really like the Himalayan and even the new 350 Meteor a reasonably priced new Falcone could easily be my backup - motorcycle. Of course with a horizontal single cylinder so it is different from all these neo - classic small motorcycles from India and China we can get here in Europe. And I would even tolerate a liquid-cooled engine because the more and more stringent rules can be better fulfilled with this layout.
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No. This would be a total disaster. I’m very sympathetic to the concept. I love my 2013 V7 to bits. I want low weight. I can manage just fine with 45 hp.
But a modern V50 would just be far to close to a current V7 to be successful.
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How do you want to create an attractive motorcycle with 500 ccm with an otherwise similar layout that costs less than the Enfield 650?
I already said I don't want that. No need to compete. And why is that? You answered the question yourself:
It is an attractive motorcycle in its own. People who want to ride a Guzzi are prepared to pay a bit more for "their" marque.
Of course the V7 is not in the top 50. Probably never was.
That the V85 is up there is probably a freak 'accident' that will never happen again. And it's in a different segment too.
Certainly the 2021 V7 will not get into the top 50 either.
The 'classic looking standard motorcycle that is not too powerful' market niche is pretty small I guess.
Hence the share for a premium bike in that segment is bound to be even smaller. E.g.: I can't imagine Kawasaki's W800 is up there either.
But that's probably why SmithSwede is right:
But a modern V50 would just be far to close to a current V7 to be successful.
Cheers,
D.
EDIT:
I looked up the top 50 and indeed, the only compareable bike to the V7 in the list is the RE650.
Although my numbers differ somewhat from yours (I used THIS (https://www.motorradonline.de/ratgeber/motorrad-neuzulassungen-gesamtjahr-2020-das-sind-die-50-beliebtesten-bikes-in-deutschland/) list).
No W800, no Street Twin, no V7, no surprise ;)
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They arent going to make a lighter, more nimble bike with a 500cc motor. Best you would get would be the exact V7 platform with smaller cylinders or altered boreXstroke. Like the Breva 850 or the Bellagio built off the same CARC platform with the big block 1100 necked down a few hundred cc
And no, I dont think they would sell, the biggest knock against the modern v7 series has never been that it is TOO powerful.
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They arent going to make a lighter, more nimble bike with a 500cc motor. Best you would get would be the exact V7 platform with smaller cylinders or altered boreXstroke.
That would indeed make no sense. Who needs the same bike with less power?
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So what kind of motorcycle are you thinking of?
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Rebadge.
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So what kind of motorcycle are you thinking of?
Me? If so: see the first post.
A 175kg light bike with 48 HP.
That is NOT 'the same bike with less power'.
It's a new, light(ish) bike with superior performance to the V7III.
Cheers,
D.
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all this time I thought the V7 was a modern v50 ...
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Me? If so: see the first post.
A 175kg light bike with 48 HP.
That is NOT 'the same bike with less power'.
It's a new, light(ish) bike with superior performance to the V7III.
Cheers,
D.
they made a v50 that weighed about that, no way it had 48hp tho... maybe 28-30hp?
The bigger issue is they are not going to make a different bike with a 500cc engine. If they did offer a 500cc, it would be exactly the same size and weight as a modern V7, but with 33% less engine capacity. I dont think MG (or any perspective customers) see much point in doing that.
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But now: The gap to the 2021 V7 850 would be considerable.
Also, in areas with tiered mc license systems, the new V7 is now far beyond the critical 48HP mark, somewhat hampering access to the Guzzi drug for new(er) riders.
I believe they made a point of saying that the new 2021 V7 is available with restricted software for tiered licensing requirements. It can be unlocked after.
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Oh, this is an easy one. No, it wouldn't sell. And, I wouldn't buy one.
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I'd guess there could be a market for a bike with "V50 characteristics" as described by Dimitri.
Would it sell? Depends - on price and looks, i.a.
Would I buy one? Possibly.
Don't think so much of the word "V50" - what's central in this discussion are weight and performance
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Plenty of underpowered bikes on the market now. I wouldn't be a buyer myself.
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I like this one
http://www.ssrmotorsports.com/store/street/buccaneer_cafe.php
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I think a modern Nuovo Falcone would be a better fit in the market.
Skippy
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I like this one
http://www.ssrmotorsports.com/store/street/buccaneer_cafe.php
That's a cool looking little bike...but it's only a 250cc. Still, I'll bet a lot of FUN to ride around the hood!! :thumb: :cool: :wink: :smiley:
(https://i.ibb.co/pyB7vpf/Screen-Shot-2021-02-23-at-6-46-47-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/pyB7vpf)
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I think a modern Nuovo Falcone would be a better fit in the market.
Skippy
I agree. Piaggio could likely adapt an existing (scooter) powertrain to build it. Something like the stillborn Italjet Amarcord.
(https://i.ibb.co/QX5vTvJ/amarcord.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QX5vTvJ)
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No
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No
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don't piaggio sell a billion scooters each year? they must be OK at low cost.