Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: lad on February 27, 2021, 06:27:47 AM
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So I started a post about this a while ago but it's a bit long, here's a link https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=108931.0
In short, i have non-linear acceleration in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear, like someone is putting on the brake during it.
Before I replace the TPS, I'm just wondering is there anything else to try?
I have new sparks, caps, and HT wires on it.
I took of the sensor and cleaned it and calibrated it but I didn't touch anything mechanical on the injection system.
It idles great, there's no backfiring, and it drives great other than that.
I took off the fuel tank and cleaned out the petcocks, there was a bit of rust so I gave it an electrolysis blast.
I can't get to the fuel filter, but I changed out the air filter.
I don't have guzziDiag or its connections.
cheers!
Based in Ireland also
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I think you might want to go to the effort to get to the fuel filter, is there any way of logging fuel pressure to see if the rail is dropping under load?
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John Henry
thanks John, I really did want to do it, I imagine it was never done because it looks so old and stock, but I've no idea how to get to it, it's so deep and there're clamps everywhere, looks like a big disassembly.
it is around 3k that it seems to be happening, but then i can kind of navigate my way through it and there is acceleration there on the other side of the 3k, or sometimes there just won't be any trouble. So, it's intermittent.
FF is meant to be done every 6500 miles apparently, so...probably about 7 overdue. I'll order one anyway and brace myself.
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I think you might want to go to the effort to get to the fuel filter, is there any way of logging fuel pressure to see if the rail is dropping under load?
:huh: i won't have a notion. I would guess yes, but it's not in my shed...
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I don't understand why the fuel filter is not easy to get at, isn't it right under the tank on the upper frame tube? With the tank off it should be pretty easy to replace, right?
But the FF is the next thing to try it sounds like.
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The fuel filter is not too hard to change once you figure it out and disconnect it,but it looks intimidating.I changed mine before replacing my tps which turned out to be the problem.
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The fuel filter is not too hard to change once you figure it out and disconnect it,but it looks intimidating.I changed mine before replacing my tps which turned out to be the problem.
I don't know what a bad TPS would feel like, but this feels like not enough fuel, maybe they're similar
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I don't understand why the fuel filter is not easy to get at, isn't it right under the tank on the upper frame tube? With the tank off it should be pretty easy to replace, right?
But the FF is the next thing to try it sounds like.
It's right under the frame, not the tank, and surrounded by enough wires to make Medusa looking like she's balding
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FF is meant to be done every 6500 miles apparently,
That is a ridiculously low factory specification. Must have been required by someone who had investment in the filter supply company. I have two 98 EVs. I used to change as specified. Its a brute of a task and usually requires some DNA spillage. Now, one bike has 35K on its filter and the other is 70K on its filter. Both run fine. You might want to change yours due to age, but I really doubt it is clogged or the source of your problem.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I changed mine before replacing my tps which turned out to be the problem.
Hey TKELLY. Please clarify that line above. It was the TPS or it was the FILTER that caused your problem???
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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It's in a weird place but pretty easy, cut ties and drop it, then take hose off one end and banjo bolt on other end.
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With the age and all, change the fuel filter. It is annoying to get the wrenchs up in the frame to get it out, but doable.
Keep in mind though, that unlike a carb bike, on these fuel injected systems, the filter is flowing about the same amount of fuel 100% of the time. So the RPM and throttle position don't have much effect on the fuel filter flow.
From your description, it may be the TPS. They can cause odd behavior that is effected by the throttle position, of course.
And don't forget to clean the tip of the timing sensors. That can do odd things. It is a Call 1100i, correct? That has TWO sensors. Make sure you keep track of the SHIMS that are on the sensors.
I would start with cleaning the timing sensors.
Get the GuzziDiag cable. It is relatively cheap if you have a PC to run it.
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And don't forget to clean the tip of the timing sensors. That can do odd things. It is a Call 1100i, correct? That has TWO sensors.
Is there two? I thought there's an RPM sensor somewhere near flywheel, and then the one timing on the camshaft? Anyway, a clean can't hurt. Just pop them out and use WD40? Or electrical contact cleaner ?
I'm going to do the fuel filter anyway, I like to just give it a routine service myself when I get a bike so I can ride in peace. Maybe i'll replace the TPS because it looked gunky and it's the wrong model and everyone is telling me that's what it is. I'll do them all one at a time anyway to potentially get an answer.
thanks
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Is there two? I thought there's an RPM sensor somewhere near flywheel, and then the one timing on the camshaft? Anyway, a clean can't hurt. Just pop them out and use WD40? Or electrical contact cleaner ?
I'm going to do the fuel filter anyway, I like to just give it a routine service myself when I get a bike so I can ride in peace. Maybe i'll replace the TPS because it looked gunky and it's the wrong model and everyone is telling me that's what it is. I'll do them all one at a time anyway to potentially get an answer.
I'm not 100% sure what bike you have. The Cal 1100i (large computer under the passenger seat) has two. One on the top right side of the flywheel. And one on the top left side of the timing chest. WD40 is a fine cleaner. Well, a solvent on the flywheel one, as WD40 may attract dust and goop. The front one is already in oil. Do not lose the shims, and the front timing one has an o-ring that is likely hard as a rock.
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I’ll just mention about the TPS.. it is NOT the same as the 1998 and on EV. 1997 and earlier use a TPS that is physically larger that the later version. I don’t think there is a Harley version available for that model like there is for the EV. They are not cheap!
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http://www.harpermoto.com/potentiometer-b-30530501.html
new TPS from Harpers for under $100 USA
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That’s the one, price not too bad.. wonder what shipping to Ireland will be?
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TPS was my problem,never changed gas filter again.
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TPS was my problem,never changed gas filter again.
Hope i'm the same, maybe they just fail
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I’ll just mention about the TPS.. it is NOT the same as the 1998 and on EV. 1997 and earlier use a TPS that is physically larger that the later version. I don’t think there is a Harley version available for that model like there is for the EV. They are not cheap!
Thanks foto, I did find this out, it's the PC09 or something, and later ones use PF03 or something, and funny enough the newer one is on it so i'm going to switch back to what it should be, I found a few on eBay for a good price.
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http://www.harpermoto.com/potentiometer-b-30530501.html
new TPS from Harpers for under $100 USA
Thanks, I have one here on this side of the atlantic.
For anyone curious:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEU-Ducati-TPS-Sensor-PF09-04-SBK-ST4-ST3-ST4s-SP-Poti-TP/183492007624?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
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I'm not 100% sure what bike you have. The Cal 1100i (large computer under the passenger seat) has two. One on the top right side of the flywheel. And one on the top left side of the timing chest. WD40 is a fine cleaner. Well, a solvent on the flywheel one, as WD40 may attract dust and goop. The front one is already in oil. Do not lose the shims, and the front timing one has an o-ring that is likely hard as a rock.
Big box under the seat alright, P8? I'll take a look at the sensors tomorrow and keep and eye on shims and rings, thanks!
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Turns out it's not a stock filter, it's one of those UFI (chinese?) ones, but sure I may as well change it. Can it be done just by peeling away a few cables and cable ties and dropping it down a bit? Would you get in there with a spanner? Ratchet spanner?
(https://i.ibb.co/r0NxVFK/FF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r0NxVFK)
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UFI is the stock filter I believe. If you can undue the hoses in that position then you can slide the filter forward out of the round holder? But when I did it I think I took the bracket off the frame pulled both out and got the round bracket on the new one before mounting it up. Yeah there is not much room to work there, I forgot how tight it is.
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I forgot how tight it is.
I just did it there, it's actually grand, it's always daunting when you've never done it. I pulled away those connections, un-routed some hose connected to the frame, and there's enough room to crack the seal on the filter, then you can unscrew it with your hand nearly, once it's out of the housing it has a lot of wiggle room back and forth. I didn't have to cut any cable-ties even. Regular open-end spanners did it for me.
But!...
(https://i.ibb.co/9VnYZRp/Screen-Shot-2021-02-27-at-23-11-32.png) (https://ibb.co/9VnYZRp)
What does it say in the TPS/FF argument now.....??
Is there a how-to section on the forum? Took a lot of pics and videos on how do get at it because I couldn't find anything on youtube, might edit it together and put it up, do something good for once in my life
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I ordered a TPS also, PF09, the fuel filter will get here first so I'll test it before the TPS, maybe it won't need it.
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Got the filter, Mahle, german thing. I think it's a bit thinner than stock but it's so damn tight in there that nothing's going anywhere. Looking forward to seeing if it makes a difference. Not sure if that fuel pump needs a drain/refresh/back-flush? ?
(https://i.ibb.co/mJQhrv7/Screen-Shot-2021-03-06-at-09-32-43.png) (https://ibb.co/mJQhrv7)
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I did not, but it all flowed out of it, brown as it was
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Well the good news is the filter is done, and off your list for maintenance. I would run the bike first to see if it fixed the issue before you do the TPS. When your following a issue, you should always do one thing at a time.
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Well the good news is the filter is done, and off your list for maintenance. I would run the bike first to see if it fixed the issue before you do the TPS. When your following a issue, you should always do one thing at a time.
Yep. That's the plan, looking forward to the next 10,000k where I don't have to change the filter.
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IIRC lad has a '96 1100i. The fuel filter also fits Porsche 944. Probably other same generation German autos. UFI Filters are Italian in origin. Probably oem one that you have. More than likely the oem one is Italian made. They like other manufacturers have plants making them in other countries. USA, Italy & China. I highly doubt that the oem you have is "Chinese" or American. Almost all of the UFI made in China is for domestic and Asian consumption.
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I highly doubt that the oem you have is "Chinese" or American. Almost all of the UFI made in China is for domestic and Asian consumption.
Ok, point made. I just figured it was cheap because when I searched from the partslist (GU29106061) I came up with this Weber filter:
(https://i.ibb.co/GFcJp4W/Screen-Shot-2021-03-06-at-21-44-39.png) (https://ibb.co/GFcJp4W)
and the UFI was listed as a replacement.
Either way, if it's a stock Italian UFI it has no place on a bike with 47,xxxKm on the clock. (It is a '96 cali 1100i)
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Maybe someone covered this already.
I would replace the filter just because it feels good, but you say there is good acceleration on the other side of 3,000 rpm so I cannot see how it can be a filter.
If there is enough flow to give good performance up high, it’s not going to be sub standard at 3,000...
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Hope you get it running right soon. :thumb: :thumb:
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Maybe someone covered this already.
I would replace the filter just because it feels good, but you say there is good acceleration on the other side of 3,000 rpm so I cannot see how it can be a filter.
If there is enough flow to give good performance up high, it’s not going to be sub standard at 3,000...
Well...that's what I'm expecting, but you never know! I still have 2 options left after the filter anyway, or 3 if you include driving it off a cliff?
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Well, it still drives terribly. I'd nearly say it's worse.
There's a spot in all the gears, if you hold it there it's like being on a bucking-broncho horse-ride thing.
Really low idle now also, like, 500-600rpm.
Little clacky sound from the cylinder heads when the idle is that low, is that the sound of happy-tappy valves?
Not sure should I mess with the idle, or get guzzi diag, or the trim on the ECU, or hand it over to a professional....no guzzi guys near me though.
Going to clean the sensors and double-check the TPS reading for now :sad:
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I would start with cleaning the timing sensors.
Do you know which sensors these are? I see a few
on the left there's two on the front:
(https://i.ibb.co/7XrrmQ9/IMG-6286.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7XrrmQ9)
and one on the cylinder head:
(https://i.ibb.co/ZKL2wxc/Screen-Shot-2021-03-07-at-12-31-42.png) (https://ibb.co/ZKL2wxc)
and one around the clutch (?) on the right:
(https://i.ibb.co/g4p0MT2/Screen-Shot-2021-03-07-at-12-31-57.png) (https://ibb.co/g4p0MT2)
wire going down the front too...
(https://i.ibb.co/QfZswwf/Screen-Shot-2021-03-07-at-12-31-50.png) (https://ibb.co/QfZswwf)
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In 1st pic oil pressure is upper & cam timing(for ignition) is on bottom- may have metal slivers on it.
2nd pic is oil temp
3rd pic is crank timing--- may have metal slivers on it
4th pic is altenator
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I said it way back in the beginning. Its a dirty TPS. It lives below the throttle body. Fuel mist condenses and drips down inside, evaporates, leaves gum residue. Easy enough to drill a tiny hole and spray tuner cleaner inside. Transforms performance. You have to learn where and how to test for TPS voltage.
Or buy a new TPS.
I've just been through the exact symptoms on 98EV. I knew what do do and its good as new.
If you lot would lift quarantine rules, I'd fly over to Shannon and do it for you in exchange for a pint.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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In 1st pic oil pressure is upper & cam timing(for ignition) is on bottom- may have metal slivers on it.
2nd pic is oil temp
3rd pic is crank timing--- may have metal slivers on it
4th pic is altenator
Thanks! So clean the cam and crank timing and watch for slivers...?
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I said it way back in the beginning. Its a dirty TPS. It lives below the throttle body. Fuel mist condenses and drips down inside, evaporates, leaves gum residue. Easy enough to drill a tiny hole and spray tuner cleaner inside. Transforms performance. You have to learn where and how to test for TPS voltage.
Or buy a new TPS.
I've just been through the exact symptoms on 98EV. I knew what do do and its good as new.
If you lot would lift quarantine rules, I'd fly over to Shannon and do it for you in exchange for a pint.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
The dream.
You did say drill a hole, and I have a new TPS on order, i'm just trying to get a well rounded opinion but also do things one at a time just in case it's something else.
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I would start with the sensor on the flywheel, it’s easier to get to and lives in a dirty environment with metal stuff from the starter teeth on the ring gear. Look for shims and put them back the same. If that’s not it, then the one on the left front of the engine. No need to fool with any other sensors. If it was me, I’d clean the flywheel sensor, then replace the tps and then if it’s not cured, the front sensor.
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The rear sensor is in a dry environment so there's a lot of "swarf" that can accumulate on it, the front sensor is inside the oil mist of the block so less likely to attract cludge to block it up.
Have you messed with the trim dial on the side of the computer box? It's covered by a rubber plug, I wouldn't screw that until last resort unless it's already been molested.
I think you can trigger a faulty code that might shed some light on the source if it's one of the sensors. Do you have the fuel injection supplement manual? That covers the procedure for reading those fault codes.
http://dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf
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The rear sensor is in a dry environment so there's a lot of "swarf" that can accumulate on it, the front sensor is inside the oil mist of the block so less likely to attract cludge to block it up.
Have you messed with the trim dial on the side of the computer box? It's covered by a rubber plug, I wouldn't screw that until last resort unless it's already been molested.
I think you can trigger a faulty code that might shed some light on the source if it's one of the sensors. Do you have the fuel injection supplement manual? That covers the procedure for reading those fault codes.
http://dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf
I don't have the Diagnostic connections yet, but I'll order them in the mean time. Haven't touched that trim dial at all
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cam timing(for ignition) is on bottom- may have metal slivers on it.
3rd pic is crank timing--- may have metal slivers on it
so the cam was dirty but no slivers...
(https://i.ibb.co/0jJFmyj/Right-before.png) (https://ibb.co/0jJFmyj)
it scrubbed up nicely though...
(https://i.ibb.co/52SKr4L/Screen-Shot-2021-03-07-at-16-29-29.png) (https://ibb.co/52SKr4L)
and the crank was just a bit oily but clean and without slivers
(https://i.ibb.co/TMpxRcX/Left.png) (https://ibb.co/TMpxRcX)
I didn't notice shims on either of them, unless they're welded to the frame/sensor housing. Hopefully they weren't lost if any PO went at them
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Diag cables on the way anyway
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As mentioned the front sensor may have shims. But....It seems that many did not have shims. It's just something to watch for.
I can't remember if you ever tested the voltage of the TPS to see if it advanced smoothly?
Good luck,
Tom
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As mentioned the front sensor may have shims. But....It seems that many did not have shims. It's just something to watch for.
I can't remember if you ever tested the voltage of the TPS to see if it advanced smoothly?
Good luck,
Tom
I did, there were some jumps but the nice people on the forum said it was still linear, it's buried in the other thread I posted at the start of this one. Kind of feels like it's at the same point in the throttle though, like 1/4 open, which might lean toward TPS issue. Anyway, it's my next stop, so the mystery will be resolved after that, keep that popcorn on simmer
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If you want to know where it is twist grip wise. Put a piece of masking/painters/paper type tape on the throttle about 2 inches long right next to the rubber grip. Then put just a small piece on the rubber grip. Take a marking pen and put a mark on the long tape and small tape with throttle off. Then turn it to W/O and put another mark on the long tape. Now guestimate the middle of the two marks on the long tape and mark. Now you have half marked. Put two more to make quarters.
Now when you go down the road you can WHEN SAFE look to see where the problem is at least per the twist grip.
Tom
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I would want to know if it is at a particular throttle position or a typical rpm figure.
30% throttle will be 5,000 rpm in neutral, but 3,000 rpm under load in top gear. If it’s TPS it’ll be at a particular THROTTLE POSITION not a particular RPM or SPEED.
You need to isolate the parameters under which you can replicate the anomaly.
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Same symptoms I had on my EV.The small tps.
A little part of carbon track was weared out. Were the tps sleeper is at 50 km in 3.gear
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A little part of carbon track was weared out.
While damage and failure are a true possibility (it is a sliding internal part after all), it is far more likely that the TPS is just dirty and corrupting or inhibiting the voltage signal to the CPU. Thus, it can usually be cleaned and restored to service by drilling a hole, spraying tuner cleaner or DeOxit inside, working it around, blowing it out, and covering the drill hole with good tape. Works for me.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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:thumb: me too.
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My experience with 170,000 miles of EV seat time is cleaning works 50% of the time. But it is basically free so always worth trying.
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My experience with 170,000 miles of EV seat time is cleaning works 50% of the time. But it is basically free so always worth trying.
Is there a post or tip on where to drill the hole? I have 02 and while it checks out OK with a VOM, sometimes I get a throttle hickup.
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Is there a post or tip on where to drill the hole? I have 02 and while it checks out OK with a VOM, sometimes I get a throttle hickup.
Patrick put up pictures on the first thread that I linked at the start of this one, but that's 5 pages long now, if I had to guess...it's on page 2
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If you want to know where it is twist grip wise. Put a piece of masking/painters/paper type tape on the throttle about 2 inches long right next to the rubber grip. Then put just a small piece on the rubber grip. Take a marking pen and put a mark on the long tape and small tape with throttle off. Then turn it to W/O and put another mark on the long tape. Now guestimate the middle of the two marks on the long tape and mark. Now you have half marked. Put two more to make quarters.
Now when you go down the road you can WHEN SAFE look to see where the problem is at least per the twist grip.
Tom
Must do this on my next spin (sensor test), just to be sure to be sure to be sure. Then I'll drill the TPS because I don't know when my new one is getting here.
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Is there a post or tip on where to drill the hole? I have 02 and while it checks out OK with a VOM, sometimes I get a throttle hickup.
This was what he said, straight forward stuff
I think you have the same TPS as my 98EV. You can drill a hole as shown here by the little white spot. Spray in 'tuner cleaner', work the pivot, blow it out with air. Rinse and repeat.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZKtvN87/tpshole.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZKtvN87)
Maybe I'll come over and set it up for you!!!!
Patrick Hayes
Fremont, CA
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Nice. Thanks!!
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eh....
Have i been duped? Why is the PF09 about 12 times bigger than the PFC3?
(https://i.ibb.co/D85YK2G/Screen-Shot-2021-03-11-at-16-22-38.png) (https://ibb.co/D85YK2G)
That's apparently the one for my frame number, but evidently they're not interchangeable? The thick plottens.
Pain in the ass. Guess i'm drilling and hoping
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eh....
Have i been duped? Why is the PF09 about 12 times bigger than the PFC3?
(https://i.ibb.co/D85YK2G/Screen-Shot-2021-03-11-at-16-22-38.png) (https://ibb.co/D85YK2G)
That's apparently the one for my frame number, but evidently they're not interchangeable? The thick plottens.
Pain in the ass. Guess i'm drilling and hoping
The PF09 is the correct TPS for your bike and not a PFC3. To the best of my knowledge you can't interchange between the two TPS's but you can buy a new PF09 here:
https://ca-cycleworks.com/pf09.html
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I’ll just mention about the TPS.. it is NOT the same as the 1998 and on EV. 1997 and earlier use a TPS that is physically larger that the later version. I don’t think there is a Harley version available for that model like there is for the EV. They are not cheap!
reply number 15, I warned you.
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reply number 15, I warned you.
....haha! You did...and I didn't listen for some reason...
Are there two PF09s then? And one is smaller? It wasn't not cheap, but I should be able to return it, or sell it on.
balls, thanks anyway
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The PF09 is the correct TPS for your bike and not a PFC3. To the best of my knowledge you can't interchange between the two TPS's but you can buy a new PF09 here:
https://ca-cycleworks.com/pf09.html
I have a PF09, that's my hand, my tiny hand holding a huge TPS. thanks all the same
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I don't get it, here's the Marelli data sheet for the part number, it says 70mm mounting holes, which is what I have, so is there a different injection system on the older bikes? There doesn't seem to be two PF09s
i just want the truth
(https://i.ibb.co/xhwtm86/Screen-Shot-2021-03-11-at-18-36-11.png) (https://ibb.co/xhwtm86)
(https://i.ibb.co/L0bkMtz/Screen-Shot-2021-03-11-at-18-35-56.png) (https://ibb.co/L0bkMtz)
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I think the one you have is PF09/04. Maybe the /04 means it's a different version?
Sorry to hear the wrong one came, I know you've been waiting a bit for it.
Tom
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....haha! You did...and I didn't listen for some reason...
Are there two PF09s then? And one is smaller? It wasn't not cheap, but I should be able to return it, or sell it on.
balls, thanks anyway
there is only one PF09 throttle position sensor...one size
a PFC3 is a much SMALLER throttle position sensor as compared to a PF09
Are YOU sure what year/model bike you have?
I currently have 2 different bikes in the garage:
1996 Cali i > this bike has the correct throttle position sensor > PF09
1998 EV > this bike has the correct throttle position sensor > PFC3
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I don't get it, here's the Marelli data sheet for the part number, it says 70mm mounting holes, which is what I have, so is there a different injection system on the older bikes? There doesn't seem to be two PF09s
again..what year bike do you have?
Yes, the throttle bodies are different on the Cali i's as compared to the EV models
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there is only one PF09 throttle position sensor...one size
a PFC3 is a much SMALLER throttle position sensor as compared to a PF09
Are YOU sure what year/model bike you have?
I currently have 2 different bikes in the garage:
1996 Cali i > this bike has the correct throttle position sensor > PF09
1998 EV > this bike has the correct throttle position sensor > PFC3
I thought I was sure, my logbook says manufactured in 1996, and the the frame number matches the logbook, but maybe someone just stuck that badge onto the frame...must check does it look botched.
Confusing, to say the least
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Could someone have changed the TB assy.?
Tom
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Could someone have changed the TB assy.?
Tom
Is that possible? Something is definitely amiss, I'd love to see pictures of the 9 in use to compare
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whaddaya know, it looks completely different...bastard s
(https://i.ibb.co/dkxBFrs/Screen-Shot-2021-03-12-at-19-29-44.png) (https://ibb.co/dkxBFrs)
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I don't get it, why not put on what came off.
If you actually look in parts book you'll see Guzzi used BOTH TPS's (earlier & later versions) 94-97 no indication where it splits from T3 & T4 versions
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Good luck....I'm out of trying to help with this!
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whaddaya know, it looks completely different...bastard s
(https://i.ibb.co/dkxBFrs/Screen-Shot-2021-03-12-at-19-29-44.png) (https://ibb.co/dkxBFrs)
image is pretty fuzzy but that doesn't look like either the 1997 cal or EV throttle body, can you get a sharper pic?
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lad has a '96 Cali 1100i. '97 they did a a bunch of subtle refinements before the major Cali mods to make it the '98 EV.
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so, when i pulled the TPS to drop it, there was a smear of slightly viscous petrol...? Do you think this could be the cause of a bad TPS, or the result, or a feedback loop?
I probably only did 10 kilometers on it since taking it off, cleaning, and putting it on.
Wouldn’t mind doing valve clearances, and sourcing new injector-manifold boots, not sure how much either of these would have an effect on my problem.
shouldn’t the opposite manifold be leaking un-burned petrol also?
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lad has a '96 Cali 1100i. '97 they did a a bunch of subtle refinements before the major Cali mods to make it the '98 EV.
I had a 95 1100i, don't remember the TB looking anything like the fuzzy pic.
But my 95 was bullet proof and went many miles without ever looking at the TPS..
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Foto/i-GNvMqwW/0/a01d516d/S/IMG_005-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Foto/i-GNvMqwW/A)(https://photos.smugmug.com/Foto/i-S7C3r5X/0/7a57afd9/S/IMG_004-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Foto/i-S7C3r5X/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Foto/i-nQLfXsJ/0/0328a717/S/ROLL3DX-11_1-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Foto/i-nQLfXsJ/A)
I did have to put in a new clutch at about 40k land lady not too happy about doing it in the living room.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Guzzi/i-kFvxc7z/0/f0883536/S/044_1-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Guzzi/i-kFvxc7z/A)
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so, when i pulled the TPS to drop it, there was a smear of slightly viscous petrol...? Do you think this could be the cause of a bad TPS, or the result, or a feedback loop?
I probably only did 10 kilometers on it since taking it off, cleaning, and putting it on.
Wouldn’t mind doing valve clearances, and sourcing new injector-manifold boots, not sure how much either of these would have an effect on my problem.
destroyed the one on my 98. sat at the dealers with gas, sun gets the gas to expand and pushes it past the shutoff valve. it drips into the TPS and gums it up. that's why they fail with low miles.
shouldn’t the opposite manifold be leaking un-burned petrol also?
it sits higher.
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how is it getting past my shutoff valve on a 10k ride? bad valve?
...bad TPS?!?!
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Here's a better pic of the '96 cali 1100i injector body
(https://i.ibb.co/DRmTRJS/Screen-Shot-2021-03-13-at-22-30-42.png) (https://ibb.co/DRmTRJS)
(https://i.ibb.co/WDc50mD/Screen-Shot-2021-03-13-at-22-29-40.png) (https://ibb.co/WDc50mD)
The bike itself is exactly like mine, except my throttle bodies look like this early Jackal:
(https://i.ibb.co/74gPP2Y/Screen-Shot-2021-03-13-at-22-35-39.png) (https://ibb.co/74gPP2Y)
only with a black plastic cap
And this 2001 EV, minus the shiny cap, same thing:
(https://i.ibb.co/TRDHrX4/Screen-Shot-2021-03-13-at-22-38-12.png) (https://ibb.co/TRDHrX4)
...you think someone swapped them out? Wonder why, if they did, are they even interchangeable? Wouldn't the ECU have to be re-mapped too ?
Anyone want to buy a motorcycle?
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I had a 95 1100i, don't remember the TB looking anything like the fuzzy pic.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Foto/i-nQLfXsJ/0/0328a717/S/ROLL3DX-11_1-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Foto/i-nQLfXsJ/A)
To my eyes these two TBs are the same
A good living room should have an engine in it, beats a TV
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So your saying you have the later version throttle body with the smaller TPS? If they had been swapped out then the plug connector would have to have been changed too?
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LAD: You have a terminology error which is going to confuse people. Just above here you post four pictures. The third picture refers to "... injector bodies ..." on a Jackal. What we are looking at are THROTTLE BODIES. The actual FUEL INJECTORS are smaller, down stream, and more hidden behind the intake tract. When I enlarge that 3rd picture, I can easily see the rounded body of a PF3C TPS under the bottom of the Throttle Body as it should be.
Also, your first of four photos is of the right side of an 1100i. Is that your bike? When I enlarge that right side Throttle Body picture, it seems that I can see a much larger/oval TPS mounted under the right side throttle body. Can't have two of them! There was earlier confusion about which TPS you have on this bike. We've all been referring to a TPS on the left side. Does the 1100i perhaps have it on the right side? And thus the one you bought is actually correct to replace that right side version? I would surely like to see images of both of your throttle bodies, from a below angle, and good lighting. I have seen Internet images of 1100i with the larger TPS mounted under the RIGHT side throttle body. Here is an EBAY sale and you have to study the image to realize it is laying upside down and the TPS is below the right throttle body:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353013960402?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=353013960402&targetid=1068323860310&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9032008&poi=&campaignid=11612431353&mkgroupid=114626995633&rlsatarget=pla-1068323860310&abcId=9300456&merchantid=131375545&gclid=CjwKCAiA4rGCBhAQEiwAelVtizVe3X_D8EI5u9_0LQXxUazBELPtSgOPM42Ko0DTqERAB31saWEF4hoC4eQQAvD_BwE (https://www.ebay.com/itm/353013960402?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=353013960402&targetid=1068323860310&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9032008&poi=&campaignid=11612431353&mkgroupid=114626995633&rlsatarget=pla-1068323860310&abcId=9300456&merchantid=131375545&gclid=CjwKCAiA4rGCBhAQEiwAelVtizVe3X_D8EI5u9_0LQXxUazBELPtSgOPM42Ko0DTqERAB31saWEF4hoC4eQQAvD_BwE)
Lastly, you comment about riding 10km after cleaning the TPS. Are you just referring to an exterior, surface cleaning? Or, did you drill a hole as I indicated and spray electronics cleaner inside? The TPS failure occurs when contaminants insulate a portion of the resisting arc track on the inside. Wiping off the outside just makes it look pretty and won't solve anything.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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LAD: You have a terminology error which is going to confuse people. Just above here you post four pictures. The third picture refers to "... injector bodies ..." on a Jackal. What we are looking at are THROTTLE BODIES. The actual FUEL INJECTORS are smaller, down stream, and more hidden behind the intake tract. When I enlarge that 3rd picture, I can easily see the rounded body of a PF3C TPS under the bottom of the Throttle Body as it should be.
Ok, changed that to throttle
Also, your first of four photos is of the right side of an 1100i. Is that your bike? When I enlarge that right side Throttle Body picture, it seems that I can see a much larger/oval TPS mounted under the right side throttle body. Can't have two of them! There was earlier confusion about which TPS you have on this bike. We've all been referring to a TPS on the left side. Does the 1100i perhaps have it on the right side? And thus the one you bought is actually correct to replace that right side version? I would surely like to see images of both of your throttle bodies, from a below angle, and good lighting. I have seen Internet images of 1100i with the larger TPS mounted under the RIGHT side throttle body. Here is an EBAY sale and you have to study the image to realize it is laying upside down and the TPS is below the right throttle body:
That's mad...maybe it is under the right side on an old 1100i. There's confusion everywhere, Patrick. I have said I have a PF3C on the bike, but according to literature I should have a PF09. Mine is on the left, now it should be on the right. I posted a picture in the other thread, https://ibb.co/jk6XhfV, that's the left side. I ordered a PF09 thinking I was undoing the PO's mistake, not knowing it wouldn't fit, apparently it would fit a stock 1100i, 1996, on the righthand side. Can't believe that wasn't twigged until now, fair play.
Lastly, you comment about riding 10km after cleaning the TPS. Are you just referring to an exterior, surface cleaning? Or, did you drill a hole as I indicated and spray electronics cleaner inside? The TPS failure occurs when contaminants insulate a portion of the resisting arc track on the inside. Wiping off the outside just makes it look pretty and won't solve anything.
I just soaked it in isopropyl to see would it permeate like the fuel did. I wasn't suggesting it was a solution, I only mentioned the cleaning as a point of interest to the fact that it was now covered in petrol slime, when it had been 'pretty'. I'm going to drill it now and then see.
Long and short of it, I have no idea what's going on. Maybe the entire TB/Injector assembly was swapped out? Seems too dramatic to be true
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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So your saying you have the later version throttle body with the smaller TPS? If they had been swapped out then the plug connector would have to have been changed too?
yeah, seems unlikely, although now Patrick's info suggests the whole thing would have had to have been swapped out.
Maybe it's just a bastard bike that was built during the transition from the two TPS's and the cali to the EV or the carbs to the injectors etc and doesn't match the paperwork, which I'm told is common enough.
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Well its drilled and triple-rinsed now, so I'll set the mv again and try get out for a spiníni during the week when the sun's back.
cheers
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LAD: A "bastard" it is for sure. As I wrote privately, Guzzi is famous for introducing improvements and changing parts mid-model. I found the attached parts diagram online. Note that there are TWO images for part #3. Enlarging the image clearly shows the two very different TPS body shapes that we have been discussing. So, either TPS could be accurate for your year of production. Just depends on which day of the week your motor rolled out of the line. Oddly, the picture seems to indicate that either TPS shape would fit under the RIGHT side throttle body. But, we know the smaller PF3C (which you have) fits under the left side throttle body. File away this transition data for when you get stumped on other areas of your Frankenstein bike. :evil:
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
(https://i.ibb.co/m67GDLC/twotps.png) (https://ibb.co/m67GDLC)
Google search these part numbers.
The upper part number highlighted will show the smaller PF3C TPS.
The lower part number highlighted will show the larger PF09 TPS.
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Been reading this and the other thread ... might have missed this, but ... did you buy this and it was running this way at purchase time?
Or did it run fine for some number of months/miles and then started acting up more and more? Or was it running fine and then one day it started running bad like it is now?
Have you had any discussions with the previous owner? Be interesting to hear if they did some strange throttle body swap or this area has been worked on and parts replaced before.
Hope the drill and clean TPS works for you!
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That's the diagram I was working off, in the top left it says 3a (the small PF3C) was in production after frame 15922, and mine is 15292, so I went with the PF09, unless the frame numbers go backwards?
Actually didn't twig the right side, or that the throttle body covers are completely different. Mary Shelley owes me an apology
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Been reading this and the other thread ... might have missed this, but ... did you buy this and it was running this way at purchase time?
Or did it run fine for some number of months/miles and then started acting up more and more? Or was it running fine and then one day it started running bad like it is now?
Have you had any discussions with the previous owner? Be interesting to hear if they did some strange throttle body swap or this area has been worked on and parts replaced before.
Hope the drill and clean TPS works for you!
I bought it like this, the PO didn't clock it, and I didn't take it for a test because he was fairly experienced, but I don't think he took he opened it up, just a few casual spins around his area. He only did minor service work, I think it was changed hands a few times before that and the trail runs cold, swapped PX with a car dealer before him, and was decommissioned in Berlin in 2011...that's all I got.
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Here's GuzziDiag rubbing it in my face!
(https://i.ibb.co/zF9XZTv/Screen-Shot-2021-03-14-at-14-18-01.png) (https://ibb.co/zF9XZTv)
show me my pictures (https://imgbb.com/)
No option for a P8 with a PF3C :cheesy:
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No option for a P8 with a PF3C :cheesy:
Is there an option for '97 1100i? Use that. If not, your components would work with '98EV in GuzziDiag.
PS: Hoisting my tricolor today for the week.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Is there an option for '97 1100i? Use that. If not, your components would work with '98EV in GuzziDiag.
PS: Hoisting my tricolor today for the week.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Good man, not a lot being hoisted here except people's frustration, but that's life.
There's a <2001 EV, but still says it's P8 PF09, maybe it'll change when I connect it
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well,
the TPS drill-spray-rinse tactic didn’t work, i’d go as far as to say it’s worse now.
strangely, I set the mv again but on guzzidiag it was reading higher, not that i can trust that yet.
idle is gone way down, like 6 or 7 hundred.
not sure what to do, reset the whole injection? valves? swap out bodies to accommodate the P8+PF09 combo? Fuel pump? fuel pump is really loud but maybe that’s the way it is. Diag i’m still working on, not
sure i have the right version and there’s no option for my setup, still it says there’re no faults anyway
When does the fun start?
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fuel pump is really loud but maybe that’s the way it is.
That is a big hint. Remind us. Did you ever remove and drain the tank? Clean it out with a little bit of fresh fuel? Did you remove the petcocks from the tank?
A loud pump is characteristic of fuel intake restriction. While the FI system has a huge filter under the tank, the pump is fed through the petcocks. Each petcock has a screen filter the diameter of a pencil and about 2" long. Any debris in the tank will slosh around and quickly plug the screens. Pump works harder and harder to suck fuel past the debris. Perhaps are hoses upstream on the suction side deteriorated and collapsing interior? Perhaps is the round seal inside the petcock torn up and blocking a flow passage?
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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The fun started this morning, happy st Patrick's day!
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strangely, I set the mv again but on guzzidiag it was reading higher, not that i can trust that yet.
idle is gone way down, like 6 or 7 hundred.
In order to set the TPS baseline, you have to disconnect cross linkage and also fully back out the throttle body idle screw so that the butterfly closes completely. Only then can you set the TPS at 150mV. Now, connect the linkage and screw the throttle body idle screw back in until the TPS is now reading around 400 mV. Did you perhaps leave the idle screw backed out? I can't see why a cleaned and reset TPS would cause a substantially lower rpm.
Do you have a new TPS on order?
Sure wish I could lay hands on this one. :-(
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I think I brought this up before. Your recent post, I'm not sure if you used a multi meter or Guzzidiad to set the TPS voltage. Don't use Guzzidaig to set the voltage.
Give this a read, probably again, to see where your at. The write up is mainly for a 15m and pf3, but overall applicable to the P8 and the pf3 TB's.
https://archive.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html
Sorry to hear of more troubles :sad:
Tom
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Also buy a real multi-meter. the free harbor freight units are inaccurate from my experience.
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Also buy a real multi-meter. the free harbor freight units are inaccurate from my experience.
It's not harbour freight, not sure if it's ''real'', seems to work ok though
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I think I brought this up before. Your recent post, I'm not sure if you used a multi meter or Guzzidiad to set the TPS voltage. Don't use Guzzidaig to set the voltage.
Give this a read, probably again, to see where your at. The write up is mainly for a 15m and pf3, but overall applicable to the P8 and the pf3 TB's.
https://archive.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html
Sorry to hear of more troubles :sad:
Tom
Setting the whole thing from scratch seems to be the way to go, to learn the system and potentially fix the problem. Not sure if the PF3C is even compatible with a P8 ECU, or if the TPS is even working, but at least I'll learn something.
I'll get some cylinder-gaskets and check those valves first...
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That is a big hint. Remind us. Did you ever remove and drain the tank? Clean it out with a little bit of fresh fuel? Did you remove the petcocks from the tank?
I did remove the tank, blasted it with a few nights of electrolysis, rebuilt the petcocks, cleaned their strainers, added new fuel with injector-cleaner. Then changed fuel filter.
A loud pump is characteristic of fuel intake restriction
I meant to say it's just loud when priming, not sure if there're different levels of loud that would suggest anything. I reckon if you had pump trouble you'd know about it more than just wavy acceleration during part of the gear? Maybe not.
Did you perhaps leave the idle screw backed out? I can't see why a cleaned and reset TPS would cause a substantially lower rpm.
I only set the higher mv, presuming the arms and stops were all ok, maybe they were not, i'll start from scratch this time
Do you have a new TPS on order?
I don't, I didn't think they were available, only a HD one or a 2nd hand. I still have faith in it, I'll do the baseline method first and then look for a replacement
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Setting the whole thing from scratch seems to be the way to go, to learn the system and potentially fix the problem. Not sure if the PF3C is even compatible with a P8 ECU, or if the TPS is even working, but at least I'll learn something.
I'll get some cylinder-gaskets and check those valves first...
You mean valve cover gaskets, not cylinder gaskets.
You have two manual petcocks. Are you opening both?
Yes, the PF3C is proper for the P8. That is exactly the normal pairing on the '98EV.
Yes, the PF3C is available from the after-market. I just bought one from Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Throttle-Position-Sensor-Potentiometer-California/dp/B07ZQM66J1/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=pf3c&qid=1616105133&sr=8-1 (https://www.amazon.com/Throttle-Position-Sensor-Potentiometer-California/dp/B07ZQM66J1/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=pf3c&qid=1616105133&sr=8-1)
I looked on Amazon.co.uk and nothing is listed. I don't think Ireland has a unique Amazon site.
Someone nice in the USA could buy one and ship it to you. Probably jacks up the postage a bit. A traveler could hand carry it if you know anyone eligible to travel now.
I would be happy to fly over and hand deliver. But, you would have to quarantine me at your house for 14 days and I suspect you would tip the Guzzi before that duration ran out. :evil:
Lastly, setting the TPS base is really important and a fundamental start to diagnostics. The running TPS voltage is really meaningless if the base point isn't accurate.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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What Patrick said about P8 and PF3C. Yes they work together. This is just for a second opinion.
The link for Amazon. I have used the USA site and bought from Amazon UK. The very few times I did at about $20 USD, no import fees, at least with Amazon Prime. "Prime" Amazons discount subscription that gets you more free shipping's and such. You may be able to use your country's Amazon site to buy from the USA? Or even go to the USA site??
The Amazon link for the PF3C is from ca cycleworks. They have a web site to buy from. Price is the same for the AFTERMARKET (I believe) part. No idea what they would charge to send it to you???
Again, Good Luck and ask away!!!
Tom
PS: I had to get up to speed with FI when I bought my EVT that had been well messed with before I bought it. With the help here, it's now a sweet bike!!
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Well, at least at bit of 'undefined' clarity from Dave Richardson's Guzziology, I guess it is in a grey area...
(https://i.ibb.co/4j8MG7Q/Screen-Shot-2021-03-19-at-21-58-26.png) (https://ibb.co/4j8MG7Q)
Gives me a bit of hope that it's not some frankenstein job and is just not set up right
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You will be a better motorcycle rider, knowing this much about your equipment. You will have success and we’re here for questions.
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:boozing:
You will be a better motorcycle rider, knowing this much about your equipment. You will have success and we’re here for questions.
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i set the mv a bit lower there, around. to 365, (typed.565 first) and it drove slightly better. even the idle was a bit higher (somehow?)
i did watch the numbers again as i opened the throttle, this time extremely slowly, and there are two points where the numbers go backwards, around 2.8 and 3.4 volts, ive done it with a few different throttle grips and it happens every time. I wonder if that’s the issue? Bad TPS one might say
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i set the mv a bit lower there, around.565, and it drove slightly better. even the idle was a bit higher (somehow?)
i did watch the numbers again as i opened the throttle, this time extremely slowly, and there are two points where the numbers go backwards, around 2.8 and 3.4 volts, ive done it with a few different throttle grips and it happens every time. I wonder if that’s the issue? Bad TPS one might say
Mv at idle should be ca 380.🐧
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Mv at idle should be ca 380.🐧
sorry. meant 365. between 360 and 385 i was told
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i did watch the numbers again as i opened the throttle, this time extremely slowly, and there are two points where the numbers go backwards, around 2.8 and 3.4 volts, ive done it with a few different throttle grips and it happens every time. I wonder if that’s the issue? Bad TPS one might say
LAD, you may have watched this before, but go back and watch again. CA-Cycleworks built a test bench to test and report on TPS quality/accuracy. The device produces a paper print to show the ramp of voltage as the TPS is rotated. Watch particularly at 5 min, 13 min, and 17 min to see obvious data issues. Really quite enlightening. I recently bought one of their PF3C units and it came packaged with a nice, clean data output print specific to that unit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZK9fVvNaC4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZK9fVvNaC4)
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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LAD, you may have watched this before, but go back and watch again. CA-Cycleworks built a test bench to test and report on TPS quality/accuracy. The device produces a paper print to show the ramp of voltage as the TPS is rotated. Watch particularly at 5 min, 13 min, and 17 min to see obvious data issues. Really quite enlightening. I recently bought one of their PF3C units and it came packaged with a nice, clean data output print specific to that unit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZK9fVvNaC4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZK9fVvNaC4)
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
nice! hadn’t seen that. my graph would probably look like a middle finger
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When you finally get your bike "dialed in", do some long term riding. I think you mentioned modifying the bottom end. Don't. Lightening the flywheel won't benefit you for the type of riding that you'll do. I live on an island too.
The island of Hawaii. It's way smaller but the terrain is similar to the lake area around the factory in Mandello del Lario where. 5th gear is overdrive that I use at 70+ mph. 2nd - 3rd gear is around town. 4th is above 45mph. Keep the rpm's up around 4K and your bike will pull when you need it.
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I think you mentioned modifying the bottom end. Don't. Lightening the flywheel won't benefit you for the type of riding that you'll do.
different thread id say. i have no plans to lighten the bottom end. wouldn’t even know how. hawaii though! please can i visit you
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There's a line. :grin: JJ is in there someplace. :tongue:
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is it over now? can we go home?
(https://i.ibb.co/xMgYgYk/74733-B0-E-A39-C-4-FF7-B4-BE-2-DD33-DCA01-E9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xMgYgYk)
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Hopefully that fixes your problem. Remember to read up on how to set it up. Take your time when doing it.
Tom
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Is that how the story ends? Feels like I read a novel only to discover that last chapter was torn out of the book. :-(