Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 27, 2021, 09:00:49 PM
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Customer John S. dropped this stuff off today.
(https://i.ibb.co/h2KwDYw/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h2KwDYw)
(https://i.ibb.co/zZdJv9V/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zZdJv9V)
(https://i.ibb.co/crtSmnm/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/crtSmnm)
(https://i.ibb.co/ggbytmY/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ggbytmY)
A few years back, I started building an "Ambovert" and this was the rolling chassis. When I abandoned that project, John bought it from me along with a bunch of other bits (5 spd. transmission, new crashbars, handlebars, fork tubes, etc.). His intent all along was to use the Norge engine, that he already had, in it. Now the project is here for me to build it to his specifications.
The engine will just fit, mounts will need to be made and welded to the frame. It's been done before, by a gent "Stephen" on the Loopframe Facebook group.
(https://i.ibb.co/zsPVMkB/Stephen-Craven-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zsPVMkB)
(https://i.ibb.co/1014Pbp/Stephen-Craven-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1014Pbp)
(https://i.ibb.co/PFZYPXv/Stephen-Craven-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PFZYPXv)
I plan to use a pair of Mikuni 40 mm flat-slides that John supplied. The ignition system is where the questions start. Stephen fitted a Sachse unit meant to be mounted to the front of a Ducati PM alternator.
(https://i.ibb.co/TrK5gxX/Stephen-Craven-4.png) (https://ibb.co/TrK5gxX)
I want to use the original Norge ignition (coils, pickup, ECU) if possible. John supplied me with a full wiring harness, coils, ECU(s), and just about everything else (including a dash!).
(https://i.ibb.co/hDM6NHy/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hDM6NHy)
My question is, does anyone know if can I just remove all of the bits of the harness that I won't need (f.i., ABS, dash, etc.) and create a stand-alone ignition system utilizing just the pickup, coils and ECU? Looking at the wiring diagram, it sure looks like it could be very simple.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/wiring_diagram_norge_1200_gt_8v.pdf
The coils are #46 & #47, the pickup is #53.
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Interesting, I thought the dash was integral to the system?
:popcorn:
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Interesting, I though the dash was integral to the system?
:popcorn:
Very interesting build Charlie :bow: :thumb:
From the reading I've done, I didn't think there was an easy work around solution for the dash issue.
I hope kiwiroy sees this and jumps in, I'm sure I've read him describe how the canbus system on the CARC bikes need a signal from all sorts of wires and sensors for the basic ignition and fuel injection to work.
Will be an interesting build to follow, I'm sure lots of CARC owners with faulty/flakey dashes will be eager to see you come up with a simpler working solution.
good luck with it
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Hi Charlie,
I installed a 1100 Stone engine on a 1982 G5.
I used 40mm Dellortos and a Sachse Ignition mounted on the Alternator.
It works great.
I made a new harness myself.
I think this is easier than modifying an original harness.
Are you going to use the Fuel Injection System, or Carbs?
Also, how difficult or easy is it to fit the old style gearbox in a CARC engine?
Ariel
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If the stock ECU and fuel injection is going in the bin, the ignition should be easy (as long as the curve is correct)
A then stand alone ignition (once attached with machining) does not know what it is attached to, it just does its job when it see's a signal.
Fantastic project and look forward to future posts.
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Should be a fun project.
I think the ignition will be fairly straight forward pickup item (51) except you won't have a Throttle Position Sensor. The ignition will fire ok but it will just fire at one spot.
Beetle would be the guy to ask if you needed a TPS or some other method of advancing the spark, I'm sure you could rig up a TPS somehow on the carb linkage, it doesn't need to be a precision device since you won't need it to control the injectors.
I have a Hall Effect sensor I could send you, that would be a nice way to replace the regular TPS
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
Of course you won't need the fuel pump with carbs, it would have too much pressure for the float needles.
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Hi Charlie,
I installed a 1100 Stone engine on a 1982 G5.
I used 40mm Dellortos and a Sachse Ignition mounted on the Alternator.
It works great.
I made a new harness myself.
I think this is easier than modifying an original harness.
Are you going to use the Fuel Injection System, or Carbs?
Also, how difficult or easy is it to fit the old style gearbox in a CARC engine?
Ariel
It's a bit different with the Norge engine - no crank mounted alternator to attach the Sachse pickup directly to. Stephen attached it to the alternator belt cover, which doesn't seem to be optimal to me.
I'll have Greg Bender make a new main harness, but if I can use part of the Norge harness for just the ignition, I will.
I have both carbs and f.i. to choose from, but we've pretty much decided to use the Mikuni 40 mm flat-slides.
The 5 spd. simply slips right onto the Norge engine - no modifications.
If the stock ECU and fuel injection is going in the bin, the ignition should be easy (as long as the curve is correct)
A then stand alone ignition (once attached with machining) does not know what it is attached to, it just does its job when it see's a signal.
Fantastic project and look forward to future posts.
Sure I can do an aftermarket ignition, like Stephen did, but I thought it would be nice to utilize the Norge parts I already have, if at all possible. Possibly less work, less costly, a cleaner installation and no doubts about the correct curve.
Should be a fun project.
I think the ignition will be fairly straight forward pickup item (51) except you won't have a Throttle Position Sensor. The ignition will fire ok but it will just fire at one spot.
Beetle would be the guy to ask if you needed a TPS or some other method of advancing the spark, I'm sure you could rig up a TPS somehow on the carb linkage, it doesn't need to be a precision device since you won't need it to control the injectors.
I have a Hall Effect sensor I could send you, that would be a nice way to replace the regular TPS
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
Of course you won't need the fuel pump with carbs, it would have too much pressure for the float needles.
Even if I need to add the TPS, it wouldn't be too hard. How would the Hall Effect sensor replace the TPS and where would it go/how would it be wired in?
I don't have the Norge pump and since it was in the tank, wouldn't consider using it anyway. Gravity will work just fine.
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Another great project to watch! :thumb:
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I think your on the right track with using the ECU for the ignition. I'm not sure if the timing needs a TPS??? I think it's only needed for the injectors???
The dash, I have no idea. Does the dash have a lockout feature? Coded key?
Good luck,
Tom
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Even if I need to add the TPS, it wouldn't be too hard. How would the Hall Effect sensor replace the TPS and where would it go/how would it be wired in?
I don't have the Norge pump and since it was in the tank, wouldn't consider using it anyway. Gravity will work just fine.
The Hall effect sensor is actually a TPS off a car, it would wire straight to the ECU in place of the throttle sensor (40)
Needs some form of linear to rotary motion.
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Late Keihan flat slides have tps as std, should be easy to find used from 450 mx bike in suitable size
Or maybe adapt the fitting to fit your mikunis
No idea if they “talk” to your ecu but Roy or Beetle would know
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The Hall effect sensor is actually a TPS off a car, it would wire straight to the ECU in place of the throttle sensor (40)
Needs some form of linear to rotary motion.
Can you post a photo of what it looks like? The Norge TPS would need the same "linear to rotary motion".
(https://i.ibb.co/4N46554/Norge-TPS.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4N46554)
Late Keihan flat slides have tps as std, should be easy to find used from 450 mx bike in suitable size
Or maybe adapt the fitting to fit your mikunis
No idea if they “talk” to your ecu but Roy or Beetle would know
If these Mikunis (TMX) had bellcrank tops, it would be easier to adapt the Norge TPS. Unfortunately, they don't, just simple flat tops. I'm sure I can still figure something out though.
Edit: Searched cable operated TPS and found that such a thing exists! Here's one example:
(https://i.ibb.co/ZBckydN/tps1-large.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZBckydN)
Probably wouldn't be too difficult to machine an adapter for the Norge TPS to make it cable operated. We plan to use a Tommaselli 2C throttle and the Mikunis came with cables and one-into-2 splitter. So I could run one cable direct from the 2C to the TPS and then the other to both carbs via the splitter.
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very interesting project..this could be a red herring but these guys make highly rated ignition systems and may be able to help...it is a long way to go though ! https://www.ignitech.cz/en/
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Can you post a photo of what it looks like? The Norge TPS would need the same "linear to rotary motion".
(https://i.ibb.co/4N46554/Norge-TPS.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4N46554)
If these Mikunis (TMX) had bellcrank tops, it would be easier to adapt the Norge TPS. Unfortunately, they don't, just simple flat tops. I'm sure I can still figure something out though.
Edit: Searched cable operated TPS and found that such a thing exists! Here's one example:
(https://i.ibb.co/ZBckydN/tps1-large.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZBckydN)
Probably wouldn't be too difficult to machine an adapter for the Norge TPS to make it cable operated. We plan to use a Tommaselli 2C throttle and the Mikunis came with cables and one-into-2 splitter. So I could run one cable direct from the 2C to the TPS and then the other to both carbs via the splitter.
I will do, I dont believe the TPS is so critical if you aren't using it for the fuel injection
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I think your on the right track with using the ECU for the ignition. I'm not sure if the timing needs a TPS??? I think it's only needed for the injectors???
The dash, I have no idea. Does the dash have a lockout feature? Coded key?
Good luck,
Tom
Nope, ignition as well. Ignition and fuel maps both use the TPS as a reference. Ditching the EFI is such a backward step. It's the luddite option.
Ciao
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Interesting, I thought the dash was integral to the system?
:popcorn:
I thought you would need the dash too.
However a few years ago when I thought that the dash on my B11 was about to die I looked at the Megasquirt / Microsquirt aftermarket ECU.
It struck me that every sensor that the engine needed was already fitted. I just need to be able to talk to it and the Microsquirt had the ability to do that
See here https://www.diyautotune.com/shop/megasquirt-assembled/microsquirt/
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Nope, ignition as well. Ignition and fuel maps both use the TPS as a reference. Ditching the EFI is such a backward step. It's the luddite option.
Ciao
Guilty as charged. This project is going to be daunting enough without throwing EFI into the mix.
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Is there a feasible way to mount or install and use the dash panel from the Norge onto the Ambassador? Even if it's tucked away for aesthetic reasoning. You'd then be able to use EFI instead of carbs.
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Other than the challenge and the fact that he has the engine, what is plus for using a 2 valve Norge engine?
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Is there a feasible way to mount or install and use the dash panel from the Norge onto the Ambassador? Even if it's tucked away for aesthetic reasoning. You'd then be able to use EFI instead of carbs.
No way in Hades that I'd incorporate that fragile, troublesome POS into the system. :evil: There are ways of using EFI without it anyway.
But, as I wrote above, this project will be big enough (not only do I have to install the Norge engine and make it work, but I also have to restore the entire Ambo chassis) without adding the complication of EFI. There is a budget that I need to work within as well and the hours it takes for me to figure out all of the EFI installation would definitely cause me to go way over that.
I can hear it now though "err, it's not really that difficult to install", "it'll run so much better", etc. Fine. Then you build a Loopframe with Norge engine and show me how it's done! :evil: :laugh:
Other than the challenge and the fact that he has the engine, what is plus for using a 2 valve Norge engine?
"There's no replacement for displacement". In a word: "power".
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I can't see a problem with eliminating the dash . As long as you can get around the ignition immobilizer function . Other than that its only function is the ability to store a few sensor faults. I am not certain, but it seems to me that the advance curve in the ecu would only require input from the rpm sensor not tps. At least I hope that is the case. Good luck with it , you certainly have a project. Looking forward to following. :bow:
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When you get it figured out, I will bring you my ambo parts bike and a breva 1100 engine-- hopefully I can find a cheap convert for the disc/fork conversion by then
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When you get it figured out, I will bring you my ambo parts bike and a breva 1100 engine-- hopefully I can find a cheap convert for the disc/fork conversion by then
Might want to find a 5 spd. and Tonti rear drive too. :wink:
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No way in Hades that I'd incorporate that fragile, troublesome POS into the system. :evil: There are ways of using EFI without it anyway.
But, as I wrote above, this project will be big enough (not only do I have to install the Norge engine and make it work, but I also have to restore the entire Ambo chassis) without adding the complication of EFI. There is a budget that I need to work within as well and the hours it takes for me to figure out all of the EFI installation would definitely cause me to go way over that.
I can hear it now though "err, it's not really that difficult to install", "it'll run so much better", etc. Fine. Then you build a Loopframe with Norge engine and show me how it's done! :evil: :laugh:
"There's no replacement for displacement". In a word: "power".
I certainly admire your ability to get these things figured out and working as they should. This will be a very educational thread to follow. Thank you for allowing us to tag along.
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I'll be starting a build thread in the "Bike Builds, Rebuilds And Restorations Only" section once I get started. Right now I'm still in the "thinking it through" and "collecting what's missing" stage. :azn:
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I can't see a problem with eliminating the dash . As long as you can get around the ignition immobilizer function . Other than that its only function is the ability to store a few sensor faults. I am not certain, but it seems to me that the advance curve in the ecu would only require input from the rpm sensor not tps. At least I hope that is the case. Good luck with it , you certainly have a project. Looking forward to following. :bow:
Nope, requires both. Ignition map is rpm V throttle position. Baro pressure engine temp and OAT also trim the ignition values. A small Part of the reason EFI is better.
Ciao
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Next question: EV (8 spring) flywheel and clutch or Norge (10 spring)? I don't have either, both are on ebay for reasonable $$. Just worried that the Norge unit may be too hard to pull with a cable and Convert handlebar lever assembly. We don't want to go hydraulic. Opinions?
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TPS
(https://i.ibb.co/PmRpZh2/DSCN0637.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zn1chR3)
(https://i.ibb.co/ctF0ZyN/DSCN0639.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k08jwGh)
(https://i.ibb.co/qRzdgNB/DSCN0641.jpg) (https://ibb.co/THZk04c)
Unlike the usual TPS it doesn't have a mechanical stop, it will just rotate forever it just has a range of 90 degrees it responds to so you will need to figure out the coupling. it has 1/4" shaft with a flat.
The Norge TPS doesn't have a 160 millivolt zero set point like a 2000 era bike
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:thumb:
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Next question: EV (8 spring) flywheel and clutch or Norge (10 spring)? I don't have either, both are on ebay for reasonable $$. Just worried that the Norge unit may be too hard to pull with a cable and Convert handlebar lever assembly. We don't want to go hydraulic. Opinions?
Do they have a lighter spring option for the 10 spring clutch as they do for the eight? j I just put the surflex springs in the 8 spring lmIII and was pleasantly surprised by the lighter pull. Maybe you could go hyd and go cable to a hidden MC . Have your cake and eat it too.
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Do they have a lighter spring option for the 10 spring clutch as they do for the eight? j I just put the surflex springs in the 8 spring lmIII and was pleasantly surprised by the lighter pull. Maybe you could go hyd and go cable to a hidden MC . Have your cake and eat it too.
Yes. https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=4986
Cable to a master cylinder? :shocked: I'm not building a BMW or V50 II here! :laugh: :laugh:
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Nope, requires both. Ignition map is rpm V throttle position. Baro pressure engine temp and OAT also trim the ignition values. A small Part of the reason EFI is better.
Ciao
So it looks like other than throttle position all the other sensors with be retained and functional without the dash. I have an idea for the cable operated TPS. I have a few cable operated demand sensors from 1400's kicking around that would be plug and play . All you would need is a twin cable throttle ,one to linked carbs and the other to the tps spool. I think either of the pots from the demand sensor would work as is for your tps signal.
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Charlie,
I'm running 15M Ecu and California Vintage wiring harness in my build. A Norge runs a 5am ECU. I think you need to run the dash and it's switches(norge, griso, stelvio) 15M ECU is widely available (Guzzi, Ducati and Aprilia)and much cheaper than a 5AM.
My Quota runs a 15M Ecu. Some people are running carbs. and using the ECU for the ignition.
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So it looks like other than throttle position all the other sensors with be retained and functional without the dash. I have an idea for the cable operated TPS. I have a few cable operated demand sensors from 1400's kicking around that would be plug and play . All you would need is a twin cable throttle ,one to linked carbs and the other to the tps spool. I think either of the pots from the demand sensor would work as is for your tps signal.
Kiwi_Roy is sending me a TPS that is cable operated and as I wrote yesterday, I'll be using a 2C throttle - one cable opening both carbs via splitter and the other can operate the TPS. If I can make the original ECU and coils work - great. If I can't, no biggie, I'll use an aftermarket ignition such as the Sachse.
Charlie,
I'm running 15M Ecu and California Vintage wiring harness in my build. A Norge runs a 5am ECU. I think you need to run the dash and it's switches(norge, griso, stelvio) 15M ECU is widely available (Guzzi, Ducati and Aprilia)and much cheaper than a 5AM.
My Quota runs a 15M Ecu. Some people are running carbs. and using the ECU for the ignition.
As I wrote in my first post, that's all I'm hoping to do. The customer supplied Mikuni flat-slides and I plan to use those.
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I put a 03 hydro in my loop and went to carbs. I cut every wire out of the wiring harness except anything to do with spark. I think about 4 wires. I then flashed the ecu to a spark curve of a 70s era Lemans with no tps bias. I had two small L brackets made out of billet and used them for the front mount eliminating any welding. They were known to crack but I cut a piece of pipe to fit in between the two L brackets with a stock long bolt and they have held up flawlessly. I can go take a few photos.
Not sure if the 1200 uses the same ecu but if it uses the same cam sensor, the 1100 ecu could be used.
JB
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I put a 03 hydro in my loop and went to carbs. I cut every wire out of the wiring harness except anything to do with spark. I think about 4 wires. I then flashed the ecu to a spark curve of a 70s era Lemans with no tps bias. I had two small L brackets made out of billet and used them for the front mount eliminating any welding. They were known to crack but I cut a piece of pipe to fit in between the two L brackets with a stock long bolt and they have held up flawlessly. I can go take a few photos.
Not sure if the 1200 uses the same ecu but if it uses the same cam sensor, the 1100 ecu could be used.
JB
Hi John! The 1200 engine mounts completely different - the mounting points are up high on the timing cover.
Different ECU as well.
(https://i.ibb.co/zXjcjcv/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zXjcjcv)
However, the parts diagram shows the cam sensor/pickup to be the same, so the 1100 ECU could be an alternative. Thanks for that idea.
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My friend Martin stopped by this afternoon to help me shoehorn the big Norge lump into the Ambo frame. It fits, but there is nearly zero space between the engine and frame on the sides.
(https://i.ibb.co/Gvk6GMz/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Gvk6GMz)
(https://i.ibb.co/7NXhC6w/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7NXhC6w)
(https://i.ibb.co/80Rhb64/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/80Rhb64)
To install the transmission, it was necessary to remove all of the studs (and swingarm, etc.). Taking a cue from Martin/jacksonracing it will be bolted to the engine.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZHkvsnL/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZHkvsnL)
(https://i.ibb.co/WBhRWwt/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WBhRWwt)
Just need to work up some engine mounts now.
(https://i.ibb.co/G3zQWkr/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G3zQWkr)
(https://i.ibb.co/K2DT2fv/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K2DT2fv)
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I guess that takes the guess work out of centering it off. :thumb:
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How close is it. Less than 2mm clearance isn't really tenable in the real world. The crankcase will grow around .5mm @ 100 deg C in areas. Maybe shaving the cases a little is the way to go.
Ciao
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Not sure if my loopy’s “normal”, sat for 50 years with engine loose but frame widens by about an inch without being tightened.
Might be worth checking compressed figure from another before deciding how much to trim, shouldn’t be a problem trimming —is only fins you’d be grinding off, case itself should be no wider than old cases, again easy to measure.
And well done Charlie, looking good, not sure I’d want any more power in my one, front forks still the limiting factor for me, half a ton of unsprung weight is hard to control, forth bridge for yokes etc etc.
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Not sure if my loopy’s “normal”, sat for 50 years with engine loose but frame widens by about an inch without being tightened.
Might be worth checking compressed figure from another before deciding how much to trim, shouldn’t be a problem trimming —is only fins you’d be grinding off, case itself should be no wider than old cases, again easy to measure.
And well done Charlie, looking good, not sure I’d want any more power in my one, front forks still the limiting factor for me, half a ton of unsprung weight is hard to control, forth bridge for yokes etc etc.
Every Loop frame I've laid hands on has always been very slightly sprung inwards and this one was no exception. Needed a bit of spreading to get the rear bolt spacers into place. Today I plan to measure the width of a Loop timing cover at the engine bolt hole, add in the width of the spacers and then compare that total to the width of the frame the Norge lump is in. I'm betting the frame needs to be spread out a few millimeters at least. That may give me enough clearance.
The forks are basically the same as an early Tonti at this point (Convert lowers, dampers and springs) but will be modified somewhat to deal with the extra weight.
Loop swingarm will be replaced with a Convert one for the larger, stronger u-joint and carrier bearing. Rear drive (V700) will need an upgrade as well, possibly an 8/33.
The Norge breather apparatus will even work.
(https://i.ibb.co/KyPqMMx/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KyPqMMx)
(https://i.ibb.co/sjkgdnD/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sjkgdnD)
(https://i.ibb.co/HPrL3Zf/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HPrL3Zf)
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What is the ground clearance looking like? DonG
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What is the ground clearance looking like? DonG
Not great, 4"?
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Extended forks an option? DonG
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Extended forks an option? DonG
Not unless we want to screw up the handling. As mentioned in a previous post, there will be changes in the fork internals, possibly slightly longer. The other Norge/Loop owner is contemplating swapping on an (aftermarket) deep sump with external filter and eliminating the oil cooler. That would be an option, but I think retaining the 'cooler would be a good idea. That could be accomplished by using a "sandwich" adapter between the filter and pan (if there's room).
(https://i.ibb.co/7zw36wd/shopping-q-tbn-ANd9-Gc-Qr-BNvlv-K-si-WR51-XSx0c-P-Wg67h-Dm-TDEsg-4l-FUvw-Leq-YLx-I4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7zw36wd)
This afternoon I did the measuring mentioned in a previous post and found that the frame rails needed to be spread approx. 5 mm at the front mounting bolt lugs. Once I did that, I had approx. 2 mm clearance between the engine and frame on both sides. I'll be making a crossmember to bolt in place there, I feel it will be necessary to retain what frame rigidity a Loopy has. :wink:
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Hi, I'm following this with great interest. I think eliminating an oil cooler is absolutely a no no. Any engine using oil jets to cool the pistons will be taking additional heat into it's oil. Even running a little cooler with carburation vs F.I. won't be enough. I have yet to run my 1400 LMIV but it will have a cooler and I have a Buell XB12S engine in a 71 XLCH frame running a carb. I only ran a cooler on the Buell engine because the engine was plumbed for it but found it to be essential as even with it the tank is very hot.
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Hi, I'm following this with great interest. I think eliminating an oil cooler is absolutely a no no. Any engine using oil jets to cool the pistons will be taking additional heat into it's oil. Even running a little cooler with carburation vs F.I. won't be enough. I have yet to run my 1400 LMIV but it will have a cooler and I have a Buell XB12S engine in a 71 XLCH frame running a carb. I only ran a cooler on the Buell engine because the engine was plumbed for it but found it to be essential as even with it the tank is very hot.
I agree. An original Norge cooler and hoses are on the way for this project.
I spent a little "thinking time" the other day about a few things.
Exhaust: I need headpipes with a 35 + mm i.d. and 38 mm o.d. I'll likely have Armour Motor Products in the UK make a pair of Loop headpipes, but with the Tonti flange. Convert finned flanges will work to secure the headpipes to the engine. Planning on Mistral mufflers. Playing around with some old (Alphabet?) headpipes I have.
(https://i.ibb.co/zmcYbht/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zmcYbht)
(https://i.ibb.co/ydYChWX/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ydYChWX)
(https://i.ibb.co/jwk8rq0/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jwk8rq0)
I bobbed a V50 grabrail last year and still have the cut off piece laying around. It has the shape I need for the lower front crossmember, but not the wall thickness or diameter. Good as an idea/pattern though.
(https://i.ibb.co/FngycfR/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FngycfR)
(https://i.ibb.co/PjfQHDR/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PjfQHDR)
The original Loop battery tray is just a stamped sheet metal piece, a little rigidity may be gained by making one from 3/8" thick alloy plate.
(https://i.ibb.co/31jm7dp/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/31jm7dp)
The Norge engine has these threaded "lugs" on either side, I'm not sure what attached there. Could add a frame mount here.
(https://i.ibb.co/wB4cKhh/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wB4cKhh)
(https://i.ibb.co/nwC08HQ/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nwC08HQ)
And finally, maybe an "A" shaped brace, either tubular or from alloy plate, to tie the engine/trans. to the frame backbone.
(https://i.ibb.co/rG9X78W/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rG9X78W)
At this point all just ideas I had.
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This may be a silly question. For the front engine mount, can't you just use a loop front cover? Get the crank adapter for the loop pulley and run a Fields alternator conversion? Or make a bracket for the existing alternator?
You may need to remove some internal webbing from the loop front cover for it to work with the timing chain.
Tom
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This may be a silly question. For the front engine mount, can't you just use a loop front cover? Get the crank adapter for the loop pulley and run a Fields alternator conversion? Or make a bracket for the existing alternator?
You may need to remove some internal webbing from the loop front cover for it to work with the timing chain.
Tom
I guess one could use the Loop (preferably late Eldo - already clearance for a chain) timing cover, however:
1) The Norge crankcase breather is built into the timing cover.
2) No adapter would be necessary, use a 22 (Norge crank diameter) x 50 (Loop crank seal o.d.) x 7 seal and the existing Norge crank pulley. The existing adapters wouldn't work since the nose of the Norge crank isn't tapered like the crank of the earlier engines that adapter was made for (Bosch crank-mounted alternator engines).
3) There is no flat area up in the V between the cylinders to mount any existing alternator bracket. Something would need to be created, perhaps like this one:
(https://i.ibb.co/z7mSmhv/alt-conv-kurt-thomas-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z7mSmhv)
which could utilize the original Norge Bosch alternator. But, it would need to be slotted on one mounting point for belt tension adjustment (just like the much beefier Norge timing cover already has!)
I'm not sure which is more work: adding mounts to the frame and using the Norge engine as-is, or figuring out a breather port, sourcing the seemingly odd-sized seal (may not be hard, I haven't really looked) and making an alternator mount that allows adjustment and is strong enough. On second thought, I am sure: using the Norge engine as-is! :wink:
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Hi, When I see something like this I can't help thinking how I would tackle some of the issues. My brain has locked on the front lower frame spacer/reinforcer. I look at what materials I have on hand and what I can make most easily with my equipment. Recently while at my local metal supermarket buying other pieces they had 1" x 4" x 3' 6061 slabs on cheap so I took one. Then I looked at what taps I had and there was a 12mmx1.25 perma coil kit. If you like this plan and give me some measurements I could have it in the mail or whatever in a day or 2. I would need the overall width and the location of the oil fittings. The offset is flexible up to the limit of the 4" material width which is way more than enough. You could position the offset up,down , or forward. I can't tell for sure from the pictures if there are obstacles I am missing. Let me know and we will take it from there. There would be no cost to you except possibly shipping if you wanted it sent overnight or something pricey
(https://i.ibb.co/GPbFYNg/ambo-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GPbFYNg)
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Hi, When I see something like this I can't help thinking how I would tackle some of the issues. My brain has locked on the front lower frame spacer/reinforcer. I look at what materials I have on hand and what I can make most easily with my equipment. Recently while at my local metal supermarket buying other pieces they had 1" x 4" x 3' 6061 slabs on cheap so I took one. Then I looked at what taps I had and there was a 12mmx1.25 perma coil kit. If you like this plan and give me some measurements I could have it in the mail or whatever in a day or 2. I would need the overall width and the location of the oil fittings. The offset is flexible up to the limit of the 4" material width which is way more than enough. You could position the offset up,down , or forward. I can't tell for sure from the pictures if there are obstacles I am missing. Let me know and we will take it from there. There would be no cost to you except possibly shipping if you wanted it sent overnight or something pricey
(https://i.ibb.co/GPbFYNg/ambo-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GPbFYNg)
Wow! Thanks for the generous offer! I'll take you up on it, but it'll be a while before I can give you dimensions. The 1200 Ambo project is off the lift right now so that I can fix a clutch issue on my own V700.
(https://i.ibb.co/b51x4Jg/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b51x4Jg)
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The forks are basically the same as an early Tonti at this point (Convert lowers, dampers and springs) but will be modified somewhat to deal with the extra weight.
Do you use T series yokes ?
I can’t deal with boat anchor original but all Tonti have much narrower steering stop spacing, don’t ’ really want to cut orig frame if I can avoid it.
Thought of grinding off stops on bottom yoke and making bolt on stops attached to clamp bolts but interested if you’ve had better idea.
Mine’s getting forks from Nevada (38mm), keeping single sided drum for now , hope to find 4LS wheel but have disc option if I decide to go that way.
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Do you use T series yokes ?
Nope. Loop yokes.
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Thanks to "leroy_can", I now have a beautifully machined billet crossmember! :thumb: With it in place, there is 2 mm clearance between the engine and frame on both sides - as much or more than an original Loop has.
(https://i.ibb.co/41jWz94/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/41jWz94)
Fits perfectly.
(https://i.ibb.co/vztPhK6/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vztPhK6)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y2zChRX/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y2zChRX)
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This is so great because I have a 1100 Breva that runs great but is getting a little long in the tooth (and its probably worth less than $3000 on the open market)... and a '73 Ambo roller in need of resto... both sitting in my garage right now. Excited to see how this all goes together
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More things acquired: 850-T rear wheel w/cush drive and 2LS brake, Norge flywheel and clutch assembly. Hopefully a 7/33 rear drive as well. I'll be using a Tonti swingarm for it's larger carrier bearing and u-joint.
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2LS brake
I thought you were doing a CONVERTed disc front end?
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I thought you were doing a CONVERTed disc front end?
The 850-T rear wheel has a 2LS brake, the front will be dual disk.
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This new bracket takes care of stiffening up the front frame. Great job!!!!
How are you going to attach the engine to the frame?
Could this bracket have been extended up to the engine mounts?
Tom
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This new bracket takes care of stiffening up the front frame. Great job!!!!
How are you going to attach the engine to the frame?
Could this bracket have been extended up to the engine mounts?
Tom
The engine will be attached to the frame via the original engine mounting points as shown in these photos:
(https://i.ibb.co/H728Fvb/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/H728Fvb)
(https://i.ibb.co/sbHk7W9/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sbHk7W9)
Mounting lugs will be machined and welded into the frame.
There is no room for the crossmember to be extended up to the engine mounting point. When viewed from the front, the engine mount is nearly right up against the frame, there is no room for and will be no need for a spacer. This is how Stephen on the Loopframe Facebook group did his:
(https://i.ibb.co/zsPVMkB/Stephen-Craven-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zsPVMkB)
(https://i.ibb.co/1014Pbp/Stephen-Craven-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1014Pbp)
(https://i.ibb.co/PFZYPXv/Stephen-Craven-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PFZYPXv)
I plan on something similar, but connecting that mounting point (which is on the timing cover) to the two on the block itself.
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Got it.
I thought the only mount was on the timing cover. I didn't see the 2 on the block.
Thank you,
Tom
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Got it.
I thought the only mount was on the timing cover. I didn't see the 2 on the block.
Thank you,
Tom
Although Stephen's are only bolted into the timing cover and that seems to work well enough, I'd feel a lot better having the block mounting points connected too.
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Although Stephen's are only bolted into the timing cover and that seems to work well enough, I'd feel a lot better having the block mounting points connected too.
Absolutely agree, tie into every mounting point available. Glad the mount worked for you. Apparently mail can still move pretty fast when it wants to.
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Although Stephen's are only bolted into the timing cover and that seems to work well enough, I'd feel a lot better having the block mounting points connected too.
Well a Spine frame uses the engine as a stressed member and is happy enough with the front cover mounting points only. I'd just use whichever made the easiest and most elegant front mounts with adequate strength. Lets be honest it doesn't take "engineering" to just keep adding metal until there's no further points available. Elegant solutions "make" a conversion like this not battleship design.
Ciao
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Well a Spine frame uses the engine as a stressed member and is happy enough with the front cover mounting points only. I'd just use whichever made the easiest and most elegant front mounts with adequate strength.
Good point. Thanks for your input.
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Bought an 850-T rear wheel from Joe Walano. Thought a cush drive would be a good idea.
(https://i.ibb.co/VtmQsNp/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VtmQsNp)
(https://i.ibb.co/WDb08cH/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WDb08cH)
I'll be stripping it down and relacing with a Boranni rim.
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Bought a used, low miles Norge flywheel and clutch assembly on ebay and it arrived yesterday. 7 lbs. 12.2 oz. for the flywheel and ring gear, compared to 13 lbs. for just the original Ambo flywheel.
(https://i.ibb.co/5kgHZyf/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5kgHZyf)
Clutch plates measure in spec. and have perfect splines. Came with the springs, clutch pushrod thrust piece and hardware.
(https://i.ibb.co/jb3pzjH/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jb3pzjH)
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Hey Charlie, any updates on this beast?
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Hey Charlie, any updates on this beast?
Yes... on Facebook.
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I'll have to see if I can find it thru my wife's account (i'm not on there)... would that be your biz page, or on one of the Facebook Guzzi groups?
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I'll have to see if I can find it thru my wife's account (i'm not on there)... would that be your biz page, or on one of the Facebook Guzzi groups?
On my business page.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3562813957174043&type=3
Engine is mounted into the frame, frame repairs and reinforcement done.
(https://i.ibb.co/LzxNxGT/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LzxNxGT)
Been trying different air box ideas, finally settled on something like this ("CAD") rendering. May go a bit taller for more volume. Yes, that the filter enclosure from a '70s Tonti-frame. It fits the space and clears whats in the way.
(https://i.ibb.co/kxSh3Bx/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kxSh3Bx)
I'm running out of room to put things, so the air box may also be where the coils mount.
(https://i.ibb.co/kGX6gFT/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kGX6gFT)
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Thanks Charlie, cool beans.
Did the customer decide to forgo the carbs and run it with the stock injection?
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Thanks Charlie, cool beans.
Did the customer decide to forgo the carbs and run it with the stock injection?
No, that was my decision. The carbs would have required massive trimming of the battery covers. Plus, I think it will just be more "user friendly" with injection.
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Awesome, I agree!