Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Philnewbike on March 18, 2021, 01:32:06 PM
-
(https://i.ibb.co/C0BCP5r/oil-chart.png) (https://ibb.co/C0BCP5r)
Hello
Due to a severe case of OCD and or displacement behaviour I have been reading a shed load of oil information (not on forums, in journals). This is what I’ve learnt based on my search for a gearbox (GB) and final drive (FD) oil for my Breva 1100 CARC... just for scientific fun :thumb:. The manual states 85w90 GL5 oil for GB and 80w90 GL4 oil for FD. These are listed as Agip/ENI oil products named MP/S 85w90 and MP 80w90. This seems to be standard for all CARC bikes. So why would Guzzi stipulate two apparently only slightly different grades and standards (85w GL5 and 80w GL4)? Hard to know, but ENI 85w90 MP/S datasheet says its suitable for trucks, very apt! When I looked (in the UK) for 85w90 the choice is very slim and when I asked the nice people at Opie oils they said Redline light shock proof oil 75w90 and swore this was superior (because forums say it is…). I don’t wish to insult our American cousins but when I read the claims of Redline I immediately think ‘snake oil salesman’. Maybe the stuff is good in dragsters but for everyday Sunday motorbike rides? Nah. Plus there are plenty of tails saying it turns to milkshake when in contact with moisture, which occasionally used bikes or ones that are left standing with have due to condensation. So, what about another more down to earth 75w90 Opie also recommended? Afterall, the 90 weight is there and the 75w will just make it easier to shift when cooler yes? Well, I don’t think so. If you look at the datasheets for the oils you will see that the standard way of comparing viscosities is centistokes (cSt) of viscosity at 40 C and 100 C (roughly 100 F and 200 F). Guzzi spec 90 weight ENI MP/S oil has a viscosity of 18.5 cSt at 100C and a viscosity of 206 cSt at 40C. Now, the thing is, do MG gearboxes operate at 100C? I guess not (not measured it sadly… if anyone has a laser heat sensor thing an can zap their GB that would be great). The engine oil temp is ~100C and the GB will very likely operate lower than that. I am going to guesstimate 70C. At 70C the MP/S 85w90 oil has a viscosity of about 60 cSt (from log viscosity vs linear temp plot - as is standard in oil viscosity work). At 70C the Redline not-snake-oil has a viscosity of 40 cSt. Now this is a lot lower. At 100C they are similar, but I don’t think the box runs that hot unless it was raced. Now for the Guzzi spec 80w90 FD oil. This will most probably run cooler than the GB, I’m guestimating 50C (again, can anyone check this?). The datasheet for MG ENI MP 80w90 oil has a viscosity of 15 and 144 cSt at 100 and 40 degrees C respectively. At 50C this equates to 100 cSt and for the Redline it is 75 cSt – again, much lower. In other words, I think Guzzi designed the spec so that at the inbetween temperatures that the GB and FD operate at the viscosity of the chosen oil is high enough to give protection at that point and the FD probably needs a little more viscosity (at a lower temperature) because of the FD bevel extreme pressure. I also imagine the GL4 is due to some tiny element of yellow metal somewhere, or they weren't sure so erred for caution. Thus, I have chosen Fuchs 85w90 GL5 bus oil (hey, it hits the spec! :boozing:) for the GB and Fuchs/Silkoline GL4 80w90 for the FD as they have very close viscosity ratings to the unavailable Agip/ENI spec’d oils.
Now you can all call me a muppet and swear your grandma ran a Road King for 300,000 miles on pink milkshake :popcorn: (But seriously, I am interested in the engineering scientific side of things, but not "I ran it for 5000 miles and it didn't blow up argument)
-
Spot on. I really appreciate your collection of supporting data on the always contentious "oil thread" subject. I also use the specified oils as specified by the manufactures. They are the ones with the real need to insure the reliability and thus longevity of their products after all. They have spent and enormous amount of engineering effort creating those specifications.
As a side note in your remarks about the "pink milkshake" phenomena, ALL oils are subject to water absorption but the design of the CARC final drive is such that the likely hood of pully moisture in from the atmosphere is more likely. The little bellows seal boot around the reaction arm acts as a bellows type pump when the final CARC unit is travelling up and down in it's range of motion. And when it is wet out while doing this the moisture just simply gets drawn in. The best defense for this is to fit up a remote breather, mine is routed all the way up to my airbox.
Additionally, a little known fact on moisture in oil. One tenth of one percent (.1%) water in oil will diminish the lubricity of the oil by 50%! Now most applications that use oil such as engines and gearbox's operate at high enough temperatures' (100 C) to keep the moisture out but for those of us who regularly ride for short distances this can become a very costly mistake.
Just my 2 cents, thanks for sharing
Skippy
-
One of my owners manuals specified AGIP Rotra MP and so I set out to find a reasonable replacement. Valvoline and Castrol products were very close to the specified AGIP product - and Mobil Delvac 1 came in as a virtual match. All of these have the MT-1 rating (manual transmission rating) which includes a seal conditioner.
The owners manual for one of my newer Guzzis specifies "Castrol Products"
I even have a liter of Genuine Moto Guzzi final drive oil, with moly. The instructions on the container state to "shake well before using".
Many of us simply purchase 75W-90 [insert brand name here] and pour it into everywhere that wants gear oil.
-
Hi Phil & Skippy,
Interesting read! I thought the GL4 vs GL5 in older Guzzi's had something to do with plastic bearing cages or bronze bushings somewhere in the transmission...idk.
For me, whatever the vehicle manufacturers recommended SAE or JASO spec recommends is what I use. I am one of those thrifty characters that will use any inexpensive brand that meets OEM recommended spec oil. Unfortunately, I most always end up changing oil before the recommended mileage or time interval unless I'm on a trip with the bike. Some of my bikes only get a few K miles per year so the change interval is once per year....what a waste, please don't report me to the Oil Change police.
Additionally, the color of the new oil (red, purple, etc.) means nothing to me. I would take no pride in bragging about the Regal Purple, Shat Proof Red or IsSoil that I spent a few hours of wages on but could not prove it works better than any of the other offerings out there. The same goes for the color of used/drain oil unless there are obvious signs of moisture (milky appearance, etc.) or fuel dilution. Dirty oil is dirty oil to me. If I ever get real concerned, I'll send it out for oil analysis. Ok, so now you know my thoughts on oil. :cheesy:
-
I also use the Guzzi specified oils and change them all (engine, transmission and gearbox) at 3K miles or 6 months, whichever comes first. Oil is cheap compared to engine repairs.
Had MOS (milky oil syndrome) with my Griso due to shorter winter commutes. Solution was twofold: 1) block off the oil cooler to retain heat and 2) take the long way to get the engine hot enough to boil off the condensate. Other bikes didn't seem to suffer as badly in the same conditions.
-
Hey Kballowe,
I ran into the same thing in the owners manual for my V11 Lemans... AGIP Rotra but I got lucky with the shop manual that specified an an SAE oil too.
-
Ay caramba! A gearbox oil thread! I took my first bike , a K75C , to the dealer for its breakin service. 5000 miles later I changed the fluids myself. The “mechanic “ forgot to put oil back into the gearbox. Found out later he was a coke head. Never had a problem. Maybe it’s all just a big oil conspiracy .👁👁👁 The truth is out there. Actually, in the south Florida heat, the standard has been Mobil 1 75-90. But opinions vary. I suspect that viscosity ranges are more critical in colder climes where temps don’t rise so quickly.
-
It’s raining and I’m bored so I’ll just throw out an opinion based on nothing except what I’ve done over the past 45 years with my personal motorcycles.
Except in extreme circumstances such as drastic temperatures changes, environmental conditions and racing use, I don’t believe one can notice much if any different in minor changes in motor oil or differential oil lubricants, as far as weights or synthetics. I have never experienced any adverse conditions when I have done these changes in the past.
Continue please:)
-
Hi Phil & Skippy,
Interesting read! I thought the GL4 vs GL5 in older Guzzi's had something to do with plastic bearing cages or bronze bushings somewhere in the transmission...idk.
For me, whatever the vehicle manufacturers recommended SAE or JASO spec recommends is what I use. I am one of those thrifty characters that will use any inexpensive brand that meets OEM recommended spec oil. Unfortunately, I most always end up changing oil before the recommended mileage or time interval unless I'm on a trip with the bike. Some of my bikes only get a few K miles per year so the change interval is once per year....what a waste, please don't report me to the Oil Change police.
Additionally, the color of the new oil (red, purple, etc.) means nothing to me. I would take no pride in bragging about the Regal Purple, Shat Proof Red or IsSoil that I spent a few hours of wages on but could not prove it works better than any of the other offerings out there. The same goes for the color of used/drain oil unless there are obvious signs of moisture (milky appearance, etc.) or fuel dilution. Dirty oil is dirty oil to me. If I ever get real concerned, I'll send it out for oil analysis. Ok, so now you know my thoughts on oil. :cheesy:
I forgot to mention that oil with .1% moisture will show very little signs of contamination visually.
I also use the Guzzi specified oils and change them all (engine, transmission and gearbox) at 3K miles or 6 months, whichever comes first. Oil is cheap compared to engine repairs.
Had MOS (milky oil syndrome) with my Griso due to shorter winter commutes. Solution was twofold: 1) block off the oil cooler to retain heat and 2) take the long way to get the engine hot enough to boil off the condensate. Other bikes didn't seem to suffer as badly in the same conditions.
Frustratingly enough Moto Guzzi discontinued the use of a thermostatically controlled oil cooler on the CARC bikes after the 2-valve bike such as mine and Philnewbike's 1100 Breva's. Why? Who the hell knows, just silly in my opinion.
Skippy
-
As a side note in your remarks about the "pink milkshake" phenomena, ALL oils are subject to water absorption but the design of the CARC final drive is such that the likely hood of pully moisture in from the atmosphere is more likely. The little bellows seal boot around the reaction arm acts as a bellows type pump when the final CARC unit is travelling up and down in it's range of motion. And when it is wet out while doing this the moisture just simply gets drawn in. The best defense for this is to fit up a remote breather, mine is routed all the way up to my airbox.
Additionally, a little known fact on moisture in oil. One tenth of one percent (.1%) water in oil will diminish the lubricity of the oil by 50%! Now most applications that use oil such as engines and gearbox's operate at high enough temperatures' (100 C) to keep the moisture out but for those of us who regularly ride for short distances this can become a very costly mistake.
Skippy
A remote Breather for the CARC Unit is a must I'd say, did my Stelvio one not long after I got it in Sep 2015.
The Oil is always clean when I change it, barely any change from when it went in.
As for Engine Oil temps, the Stelvio, and I'm guessing the Griso and any other 1100/1200 Engine with an Oil Cooler and no Thermostat is badly over-cooled.
I fitted a Trail Tech Oil Temp Sensor and Gauge soon after I got the Bike, partly due to the Flat Tappet concerns.
In Winter, or just cool weather (<14°C or so), my Oil would never get above 75°C or so, less if it rained as well.
Would always have 'Mayo' in the Valve Covers.
I took to partially/fully covering the Cooler in Winter, to get the Temps up to a decent level (110-120°C), no more Mayo.
Then I built a Thermostat Unit, using a 93°C Waxstat, and put it in the Cooling Oil Circuit, to bypass the Cooler.
Temp Sensor was originally in the Banjo Bolt in the Cooling Oil Outlet from the Crankcase (see pic).
I've since moved it to the Sump, next to the Drain Plug.
(https://i.ibb.co/KhVnfRJ/Thermo1-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KhVnfRJ)
I also machined up a replacement Alloy Fill Plug for the CARC Unit, that accepts another Trail Tech Sensor (with Gauge obviously).
Highest temp seen so far is around 42°C, during our decent (for once) Summer, in 2019.
I'm going to fit it to the Gearbox Fill/Level hole at the next service, just out of interest.
(https://i.ibb.co/Q70wFDk/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q70wFDk)
geojson python (https://geojsonlint.com/)
-
Thank you for your appreciative comments. You would not believe how much info i have acquired... think I'm going mad with oil data! Maybe I should have explained the plot though: the dashed lines with the labelled numbers are the guzzi spec. Also, I should have said that perhaps the reason the small block non-CARC bikes have 140 weight oil is that those final drives run a bit hotter and so need to be thicker oil to start with. Not sure why they would be hotter though? Basically the reason I don't think you can just run 75w90 is because the 90 bit isn't the weight of the oil at the temperature a guzzi operates at, i.e. it is not going to be 100 C more likely lower, so you don't want a 75w weight as it will be a bit too thin. Though as someone above said, if it's oily it's probably ok. My argument with that is that overwhelming the people who say " I've run bikes for 50 year on olive oil" etc have never run one for 10,000 miles on the same oil and compared the wear rates to an identical bike ran for 10,000 miles on the right spec.
Also. A word about those who run on heavier oil, e.g. 75w140 when 85w90 is specified: High viscosity oil in an application where a medium viscosity is appropriate will simply shear more at the gear tooth interface and that friction may cause momentary heat to a point where its viscosity is LOWER than the right lower spec 90 weight. Thats not my opinion its tribological fact. So you can produce more wear going for a 'safe' heavier oil. Not saying thats definitely the case here, but possible. At the very least you'll be using more fuel and possibly straining the seals. Word to the wise: stick to the spec and peace out oil thread addicts :boxing:
Oh, one more confounding issue: the v9 and v85tt look almost identical to me but the v85 gearbox is specified with 140 oil and v9 is 90! I think this may be due to the possibility that the v85 will be used off road 2 up and so the oil will be hotter, load higher, and so the viscosity should be higher as its expectedto thin out... not sure tbh
-
I would need to see more pants suspenders and corn cob pipe smoking first.
This is what I removed.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/motorcycle/1973motoguzzieldorado/273.JPG)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/motorcycle/1973motoguzzieldorado/274.JPG)
The new FD gears and gearbox clusters got Redline Shockproof Heavy.
Time will tell if I look inside or something overheats beforehand.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/motorcycle/mgmods/GB.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/motorcycle/mgmods/Image-36.png)
-
A remote Breather for the CARC Unit is a must I'd say, did my Stelvio one not long after I got it in Sep 2015.
The Oil is always clean when I change it, barely any change from when it went in.
As for Engine Oil temps, the Stelvio, and I'm guessing the Griso and any other 1100/1200 Engine with an Oil Cooler and no Thermostat is badly over-cooled.
I fitted a Trail Tech Oil Temp Sensor and Gauge soon after I got the Bike, partly due to the Flat Tappet concerns.
In Winter, or just cool weather (<14°C or so), my Oil would never get above 75°C or so, less if it rained as well.
Would always have 'Mayo' in the Valve Covers.
I took to partially/fully covering the Cooler in Winter, to get the Temps up to a decent level (110-120°C), no more Mayo.
Then I built a Thermostat Unit, using a 93°C Waxstat, and put it in the Cooling Oil Circuit, to bypass the Cooler.
Temp Sensor was originally in the Banjo Bolt in the Cooling Oil Outlet from the Crankcase (see pic).
I've since moved it to the Sump, next to the Drain Plug.
(https://i.ibb.co/KhVnfRJ/Thermo1-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KhVnfRJ)
I also machined up a replacement Alloy Fill Plug for the CARC Unit, that accepts another Trail Tech Sensor (with Gauge obviously).
Highest temp seen so far is around 42°C, during our decent (for once) Summer, in 2019.
I'm going to fit it to the Gearbox Fill/Level hole at the next service, just out of interest.
(https://i.ibb.co/Q70wFDk/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q70wFDk)
geojson python (https://geojsonlint.com/)
That is amazing work mate and really interesting. So if you read off from my plot from about 42 deg C then the Guzzi spec oil viscosity is basically at the 40 deg / 140 cSt level and the 75w90 Redline not-snake-oil is at 100 cSt... lots lower. Will be fascinated to see what the gearbox temp is :thumb:
How hard wss it to rig up this interesting system?
-
ALL oils are subject to water absorption but the design of the CARC final drive is such that the likely hood of pully moisture in from the atmosphere is more likely. The little bellows seal boot around the reaction arm acts as a bellows type pump when the final CARC unit is travelling up and down in it's range of motion. And when it is wet out while doing this the moisture just simply gets drawn in. The best defense for this is to fit up a remote breather,
Just my 2 cents, thanks for sharing
Skippy
Thanks skippy, good point !
-
I would need to see more pants suspenders and corn cob pipe smoking first.
This is what I removed.
Lol.
What on earth happened? Were you running in olive oil?
-
Fuchs/Silkoline GL4 80w90.
-
That is amazing work mate and really interesting. So if you read off from my plot from about 42 deg C then the Guzzi spec oil viscosity is basically at the 40 deg / 140 cSt level and the 75w90 Redline not-snake-oil is at 100 cSt... lots lower. :thumb:
How hard wss it to rig up this interesting system?
And in practical application this means precisely what? Higher viscosity is always required? Guzzi oil recommendations for viscosity are always precisely what's needed in all circumstances? You might be surprised at what rationale is used in the manufacturers world with regards to specifications on a lot of things. It's regularly not always a direct technical consideration. I see this thread with regards to the specific hair splitting over precise viscosity as a bit of naval gazing by people that think manufacturers treat this question as anally as some of their customers. They don't and cant when they are selling machinery all over the world to be used in a multitude of applications and ways.
I'm aware of the relationship between theory and practice and I have many many times drilled down to the theoretical fine point when I need to but when I have years of first hand practical knowledge I don't waste time on the theory. The facts are that millions and millions of motorcycle straight cut transmissions in applications driven by engines with far more power and torque than a Guzzi twin happily survive hundreds of thousands of KLM's without issue on 10/15W-40/50 engine oil. They also happily survive when you subject them to racing conditions without complaint. A Guzzi gearbox has the luxury of operating with dedicated transmission oil and you're concerning yourself with the viscosity differences between oils rated in the same grade. I mean knock yourself out but it's in the area of OCD as you mentioned and of no practical benefit.
Ciao
-
I go the other way and get brand loyal across my bikes. Redline Shockproof in gearboxes and Honda GN4 in cranks. I just wish oil filters were all the same size.
-
Be sure to send your oil in to Blackstone labs every 3 miles, and then will will know for sure if things are going correctly. otherwise total guess.. :thumb: Maybe send your fork oil in too.. :evil:
-
Thank you for starting this thread @Philnewbike. Because I've always wondered why MG bothered to specify different FD and gearbox oils. And what the difference is using the more mass produced full synthetic 75w90. There are differences besides viscosity, but I don't have those answers here.
I believe the designs are for high reliability operating in sub freezing ambient temperatures as well as sweltering summer ambients in the hottest deserts. It appears to me the viscosity differences between the different oils in the graph is a magnitude less than the difference for the given spec'ed oil at the temperature extremes I mentioned.
This leads me to summarize that the greatest variance is when using 75w-90 in coldest winter when the oil is too thin, but hey, if oil this thin then is a problem, then all the oils would be even thinner in hottest summer. I hope my logic comes through here, it is a simple idea, but a little hard for me to describe.
-
And in practical application this means precisely what? Higher viscosity is always required? Guzzi oil recommendations for viscosity are always precisely what's needed in all circumstances? You might be surprised at what rationale is used in the manufacturers world with regards to specifications on a lot of things. It's regularly not always a direct technical consideration. I see this thread with regards to the specific hair splitting over precise viscosity as a bit of naval gazing by people that think manufacturers treat this question as anally as some of their customers. They don't and cant when they are selling machinery all over the world to be used in a multitude of applications and ways.
I'm aware of the relationship between theory and practice and I have many many times drilled down to the theoretical fine point when I need to but when I have years of first hand practical knowledge I don't waste time on the theory. The facts are that millions and millions of motorcycle straight cut transmissions in applications driven by engines with far more power and torque than a Guzzi twin happily survive hundreds of thousands of KLM's without issue on 10/15W-40/50 engine oil. They also happily survive when you subject them to racing conditions without complaint. A Guzzi gearbox has the luxury of operating with dedicated transmission oil and you're concerning yourself with the viscosity differences between oils rated in the same grade. I mean knock yourself out but it's in the area of OCD as you mentioned and of no practical benefit.
:thumb:
Ciao
-
Fuchs/Silkoline GL4 80w90.
@LesP
What bike is that failed final drive from? It doesn't look like a CARC... Looking at old Guzzi manuals the V50 sized FDs stipulate Agip F.1 Rotra MP SAE 140 and the 850 tyoes are straight 90. Note that 90 weight is heavier than a xW90 weight oil so if you used 80w90 instead of 90 it will also be too thin at the operating temperature (i.e. that is well below 100C / 200F). I have added the Silkolene/Fuchs straight 90 weight to the chart in red (and changed the x axis for clarity), as you can see it is very viscos because it has no W rating.
Impossible to say for sure, but from the engineering textbooks on gear wear this looks like scuffing and, or followed by, severe overheating - thermal runaway (caused by gears expanding and running without backlash which increases the loads causing increased temperature...etc). However, contrary to that they also seem to show the very tips of the teeth worn which actually would suggest far too much clearance, i.e. slipping (was this after the wear occurred perhaps?). What may have caused all this? Well 80w90 is too thin for an older non-CARC bike according to the Guzzi spec. Perhaps maintenance or lack of done by previous owners accelerated damage before you got it: bearing misalignment due to wear or misassembly either at factory or previous repair, snake oil additive added by misguided owners, too thick viscosity oil (though you say this wasn't the case) or too thin, low oil, too high oil causing frothing, too much axial float or water contamination. Or, plain old too many miles on the clock!
(https://i.ibb.co/nnd1KZZ/oil-chart-with-90.png) (https://ibb.co/nnd1KZZ)
-
I have years of first hand practical knowledge I don't waste time on the theory. The facts are that millions and millions of motorcycle straight cut transmissions in applications driven by engines with far more power and torque than a Guzzi twin happily survive hundreds of thousands of KLM's without issue on 10/15W-40/50 engine oil.
Hi Phil
I'm a mechanical engineer in R&D so this is a little side step for me because the science of gearbox design and failure is not that familiar to me... but it is becoming so due to OCD lol. Just a couple of things I'd say I disagree with but am happy for you to carry on believing so this isn't meant to be combative:
If you're not interested in theory then yes, choose whatever has the biggest advertising budget and looks cool (Redline I suspect).
As far as I know straight cut gears don't tent to fail early here, it's the dog clutches that do... and the bevel final drive... and seals.
10w40 and 15w50 engine oil is probably OK for gearbox but definitely not OK for final drive which needs extreme pressure EP additive.
10w40 and 15w50 engine oil has equivalent gear oil weights of roughly 75w90 or there abouts so is probably a little thin for gearbox but will most likely be fine as you say. If you put it in the FD you will wear it out faster. it'll be too thin and not have EP protection. That's not to say it won't last 100Km for some people but is will be wearing far higher rate as it's not got the right EP additives.
Why not just stick to the spec? Sorry, I keep forgetting, gearbox designers spend all that time and brain power designing how many microns of gear clearance are needed for the bending load on the teeth and then when it comes to choosing the oil they go "ah, just stick something cool-looking in with a cool name".
No mate, they honestly don't.
Toodle-pip!
Phil
-
Thank you for starting this thread @Philnewbike. Because I've always wondered why MG bothered to specify different FD and gearbox oils. And what the difference is using the more mass produced full synthetic 75w90. There are differences besides viscosity, but I don't have those answers here.
I believe the designs are for high reliability operating in sub freezing ambient temperatures as well as sweltering summer ambients in the hottest deserts. It appears to me the viscosity differences between the different oils in the graph is a magnitude less than the difference for the given spec'ed oil at the temperature extremes I mentioned.
This leads me to summarize that the greatest variance is when using 75w-90 in coldest winter when the oil is too thin, but hey, if oil this thin then is a problem, then all the oils would be even thinner in hottest summer. I hope my logic comes through here, it is a simple idea, but a little hard for me to describe.
Thanks mate, it is all academic, just for OCD kicks. I'd probably say that the operating temperature once warm will not vary significantly and therefore ambient temperature, unless sub 5 C or post 40 C is probably all covered in the spec. Or, if riding 2-up in hills or off road this might be an issue too. So outside those parameters then yes I'd probably consider fiddling with the spec but then again I wouldn't bother riding in sub 5 C I'd get the bus!
-
Fuchs/Silkoline GL4 80w90.
I've just realised I'm UK not USA, when I say gearbox I should be clear I mean the thing with the gears in - that needs 85w90 in a CARC and straight 90 for the 1970s 850 or straight 140 for 1970s V50 (as examples)
When I say final drive or transmission I mean the swing arm shaft bit - 80w90 in a CARC and same straight 90 850 or 140 V50 style as above for older Guzzis I've seen the manuals for.
Cheers
phil
-
I also machined up a replacement Alloy Fill Plug for the CARC Unit, that accepts another Trail Tech Sensor (with Gauge obviously).
Highest temp seen so far is around 42°C, during our decent (for once) Summer, in 2019.
I'm going to fit it to the Gearbox Fill/Level hole at the next service, just out of interest.
(https://i.ibb.co/Q70wFDk/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q70wFDk)
geojson python (https://geojsonlint.com/)
Great work! Will be fascinated to see the gearbox temp. So at 42 deg C the 80w90 Guzzi spec oil is at ~140 cSt and the Reline not-at-all-snake-oil is at ~100 cSt. That’s a third less viscosity. Maybe that isn't enough to cause damage but I see no reason to risk it especially as a proper EP specific gear oil hits the Guzzi spec at a fraction of the price.
-
Hmm....if using X140 lube will cause viscosity loss due to heat why would Guzzi specify X140 lube in an off road application due to heat?
The reason Guzzi or any otber manufacturer says to use a certain brand of oil is because they are paid to do so.
And the "milkshake" thing about Red Line gear oil comes from the Shock Proof Heavy looking like a strawberry milkshake as it comes from the bottle. Most any oil will look like a milkshake or mayo when water is involved.
The GL-4 rating on gear lubes USED to be due to non ferrous metals in the transmission-the thing we shift by foot on bikes and by hand in cages. GL-5 USED to attack those metals. There are now GL-5 oils which are compatible with non ferrous metals.
-
Most on here who run Redline use the Heavy not the Light
I don't know about the CARC bikes, too dammed modern for me.
With the older 5 speeders the majority of the gears are Helical not straight cut.
The few that are unfortunate enough to run straight cut 5 speeders, usually end up digging into the box a LOT earlier, me included because the gear surface treatment was inadequate.
The straight cut boxes sometimes make more noise than the engines.
If you've dug into one of these old boxes and seen the way Louigi put these things together, IMHO the finer points of gear oil is probably the least of your worries.
This is before we get to Guzzi reducing the dogs from 5 to 3 in a hopeless attempt to speed up the shifting, all it did was make the boxes even noisier and resulted in these boxes needing attenion earlier than their older brothers. Or we could discuss the twin row all metal bearings that Guzzi changed to phenolic/nylon caged with around half the balls type without a change of part number.
I could go on as many, many on here could do likewise and more
I'm in some doubt regarding the depth of design that went on inside Mandello, because over the years they've made some howlers.
-
Hmm....if using X140 lube will cause viscosity loss due to heat why would Guzzi specify X140 lube in an off road application due to heat?
The reason Guzzi or any otber manufacturer says to use a certain brand of oil is because they are paid to do so.
And the "milkshake" thing about Red Line gear oil comes from the Shock Proof Heavy looking like a strawberry milkshake as it comes from the bottle. Most any oil will look like a milkshake or mayo when water is involved.
The GL-4 rating on gear lubes USED to be due to non ferrous metals in the transmission-the thing we shift by foot on bikes and by hand in cages. GL-5 USED to attack those metals. There are now GL-5 oils which are compatible with non ferrous metals.
Heat: There are 2 kinds to consider, the heat at the meta-metal interface and the bulk heat of the sump. Going more slowly with higher load would indicate a higher viscosity required. Using a higher viscosity at high sliding speed can simply cause heating at the sliding interface due to the viscous heating.
Yes brand is for monetary agreement. But spec like 85w90 is for a reason.
The Redline is particularly sensitive to water contamination due to the (I think) calcium additive level.
Yes, some GL5 oils specifically say they're also GL4 compliant and that is important to check.
-
Most on here who run Redline use the Heavy not the Light
With the older 5 speeders the majority of the gears are Helical not straight cut.
Heavy 140 oil *is recommended* for a lot of the small block final drives. Excessive gearbox wear could be due to wrong spec heavy weight dragster oil... maybe!
I was not aware of any box having helical gears. Interesting.
-
The statement was made and repeated using the heavier oil is bad due to added heat at the mating sufaces of of the gears.
If this is bad you wouldnt want to use the heavier spec oil under any condition.
-
(https://i.ibb.co/d2yH6Xz/oil-chart-with-90-and-140.png) (https://ibb.co/d2yH6Xz)
The statement was made and repeated using the heavier oil is bad due to added heat at the mating sufaces of of the gears.
If this is bad you wouldnt want to use the heavier spec oil under any condition.
Attached is the viscosity comparison chart with Redline heavy added. Note it is thinner than the Guzzi spec for 85w90 and thinner than the older Guzzi spec of straight 90 weight at the operating temperature (i.e. below 70 deg C).
No, saying "heavier oil is bad due to added heat at the mating sufaces of of the gears and so you wouldn't want to use the heavier spec oil under any condition", is patently not correct. In general and oversimplifying it: lower speed highly loaded tends to indicate heavier oil and vice versa.
Heavy weight oil is not bad under any conditions, it is simply unwise to use heavy weight oil when the gearbox manufacturer and their oil supplier say to use a medium one e.g. 85w90 and you use (e.g.) 75w140. I don't see how that is controversial. (Except what you're actually doing is probably using a thinner oil which I'll explain in a minute...!).
You're confusing two principles. One is that (e.g. Redline) 75w140 weight oil in a gearbox that's running at 50 deg C is heavier than 85w90 or straight 90. It isn't, it's actually lighter, so thinner than Guzzi/Agip expected. Look at the new plot with Redline 75w140 added: below 70 deg C the Redline is THINNER than the Guzzi spec. OK this may not be an issue, but we don't know so why risk it? (The gearbox runs cooler than the engine, especially so if you're a potterer like me.)
The second is general gearbox teeth design principle: oil is chosen to provide certain microns of oil film between teeth and some dog clutch engagement principles. If you then stick in a genuinely heavier oil of some kind then the film thickness increases and so does the friction heating of the shearing forces in the film. So instantaneously, at the tooth-to-tooth interface, you can get high temp LOWER viscosity oil film and hence less protection and higher temperatures. I'm not sure if this is a big issue here tbh but it's worth noting.
Interestingly the MP/S 85w90 spec sheet also shows there are limited slip friction modifiers in it suggesting that ideally an 85w90 or straight 90 for a LS diff would be best (maybe something to do with the sliding dog clutches in sequential boxes and avoiding too much slipperiness for positive engagement)... I'm not sure at this moment of my knowledge tbh :thumb:
Agip/ENI, though obviously they paid Guzzi for the privilege (just like Castrol now) of supplying, and the Guzzi engineers, know more about oil selection than Redline definitely-not-snake-oil-with-huge-marketing-budget do.
Obviously, if there's a lot of wear and the clearances have opened up to the point of noise generation then perhaps a heavier oil would then be appropriate, but not a 75w90 as the 75w bit makes it too thin at the expected operating temperature - which thanks to John Warner I estimate to be above 40 deg C and below 70 deg C. NB a chap above in the comments used an oil too thin for his final drive (80w90 - ignored the spec that says heavier weight) and look what happened (and now he says he's going to use redline shockproof, which is also thinner than the spec at the 40 deg C :violent1:... Why ignore the spec?
Cheers
phil
-
For the 5 speeders that I'm running the Guzzi recommendation is 80W-90 and the Redline Heavy's viscosity is higher
That's not to say I won't look at another brand later, but for this season I'll continue to use the Redline that's in the box for now.
It's also not to say that higher=good/lower=bad there are so many variables it's a pointless debate.
Generally we fall into 2 camps, you either stick rigidly to Guzzi's recommendations or you don't.
On the older bikes is the oil specified, the best for the gearboxbox/bevel box/engine currently available or the best that was available at the time of production?
Should I go to an 85W/90 instead?
As an aside engine oil recommended is 20/50 as that was about as good as it got back in the day, I'm currently running a 15/50 and thinking of going to a 10/50. Some of the carc's have a 10/60 recommended for their engines.........sho uld I be going there............Si gh
My own take is as long as the oils are generally within the ranges of common sense and your not running Yak Fat in the engine and mineral water in the transmission you'll probabaly be just fine.
Gettin' ma coat............... .....I should know better than to even post on oil threads
-
For the 5 speeders that I'm running the Guzzi recommendation is 80W-90 and the Redline Heavy's viscosity is higher
That's not to say I won't look at another brand later, but for this season I'll continue to use the Redline that's in the box for now.
It's also not to say that higher=good/lower=bad there are so many variables it's a pointless debate.
Generally we fall into 2 camps, you either stick rigidly to Guzzi's recommendations or you don't.
On the older bikes is the oil specified, the best for the gearboxbox/bevel box/engine currently available or the best that was available at the time of production?
Should I go to an 85W/90 instead?
As an aside engine oil recommended is 20/50 as that was about as good as it got back in the day, I'm currently running a 15/50 and thinking of going to a 10/50. Some of the carc's have a 10/60 recommended for their engines.........sho uld I be going there............Si gh
My own take is as long as the oils are generally within the ranges of common sense and your not running Yak Fat in the engine and mineral water in the transmission you'll probabaly be just fine.
Gettin' ma coat............... .....I should know better than to even post on oil threads
For the 1000 5 speed the spec is indeed Agip MP 80w90 for gearbox and final drive. 75w90 Redline would be too thin and 75w140 Redline is a fair bit thicker. This might be a good thing if there's already wear in the box, but then again it may just cause excessive frictional shear heating and frothing degradation causing more wear. We'll never know so like you say, pointless to debate. There is known tribology science and there is anecdotal evidence. Both are interesting and anecdotal evidence is still valid... but sometimes there is some right nonsense spoken so you just have to be more careful.
As you say, this is all pointless at the end of the day, but I'm fascinated by the science and thought I'd share it just for kicks... you know you love a good oil thread, admit it :boozing:
-
Surprise, surprise! A 75 weight oil is thinner than an 85 weight! Whoda thunk it!
But, the statement was made that a higher viscosity oil creates more heat at contact points than thinner oil
In the exact transmission Guzzi recommends two different viscosities depending on use.
If the heavier oil creates more heat then why does Gizzi recommend a heavier oil in conditions that would create more heat is said heat at contact points is harmful?
Btw, I have no dog in the fight but I can tell ya I have used the shock proof heavy in quick change rears in 700+ HP dirt track cars. The gears show no wear whatsoever. And its hard to get the gars off their shafts because you can't grab them. Too slick.
That's why it's said not to be used in transmissions with synchros.
-
Surprise, surprise! A 75 weight oil is thinner than an 85 weight! Whoda thunk it!
We were discussing 75w90 or 75w140 to 85w90 and yes it is indeed a surprise to many because they don't realise that their application is running at a temperature where a 75w90 or 75w140 is at the 'w' end of it's viscosity and not at the 90 or 140 end and therefore thinner than they think (and thinner than the Guzzi spec).
But, the statement was made that a higher viscosity oil creates more heat at contact points than thinner oil
In the exact transmission Guzzi recommends two different viscosities depending on use.
If the heavier oil creates more heat then why does Gizzi recommend a heavier oil in conditions that would create more heat is said heat at contact points is harmful?
Based on gearbox design theory I'd suggest because the transmission is assumed to be going more slowly at higher loads, which would suggest a higher viscosity and/or that the high loads will cause the gearbox to run hotter and therefore nearer to the 'hot end' of the xxWyy rating where the oil's thinner.
Btw, I have no dog in the fight but I can tell ya I have used the shock proof heavy in quick change rears in 700+ HP dirt track cars. The gears show no wear whatsoever. And its hard to get the gars off their shafts because you can't grab them. Too slick.
That's why it's said not to be used in transmissions with synchros.
Yes Redline's spec say's it is recommended for that kind of purpose.
Again, anecdotal is not compelling but is interesting. I don't think a 700 hp dirt bike used for minutes and then stripped down is very representative of lazy Guzzi riding though.
-
Surprise, surprise! A 75 weight oil is thinner than an 85 weight! Whoda thunk it!
But, the statement was made that a higher viscosity oil creates more heat at contact points than thinner oil
In the exact transmission Guzzi recommends two different viscosities depending on use.
If the heavier oil creates more heat then why does Gizzi recommend a heavier oil in conditions that would create more heat is said heat at contact points is harmful?
Btw, I have no dog in the fight but I can tell ya I have used the shock proof heavy in quick change rears in 700+ HP dirt track cars. The gears show no wear whatsoever. And its hard to get the gars off their shafts because you can't grab them. Too slick.
That's why it's said not to be used in transmissions with synchros.
I remember about 20 years ago when Pratt and Whitney were trying to develop a high bypass jet engine using a reduction gearbox for the fan they were running the gears in an oil bath and were having sever overheating issues. This gear system remember would be transmitting many thousands of shaft horsepower. The cure? less oil. They went to a targeted oil jet system directly at the gears and ditched the wet sump system. The churn was overheating the oil. Things aren't always simple to extrapolate without data and physical experience. You can hypothesise and pour over theory all you like and it's what you need to do sometimes but at the end of the day the actual doing of it is where the answers are. And there's plenty of gearbox and bevel gear practical lubricating data out there.
The other thing I recall was GMH here is Australia had a 4 speed manual gearbox they used in a lot of cars, the M21. Good box but had an issue with shifting when cold, esp in winter. The solution from GMH? Ditch the gear oil and run ATF. My father in law was involved in the testing and research on that one. Many thousands of those boxes ran many hundreds of thousands of KLM's for the rest of their lives on ATF without issues. So designed for gear oil and end up running for life on ATF.
Ciao
-
THX. That's really interesting.
-
I remember about 20 years ago when Pratt and Whitney were trying to develop a high bypass jet engine using a reduction gearbox for the fan they were running the gears in an oil bath and were having sever overheating issues. This gear system remember would be transmitting many thousands of shaft horsepower. The cure? less oil. They went to a targeted oil jet system directly at the gears and ditched the wet sump system. The churn was overheating the oil. Things aren't always simple to extrapolate without data and physical experience. You can hypothesise and pour over theory all you like and it's what you need to do sometimes but at the end of the day the actual doing of it is where the answers are. And there's plenty of gearbox and bevel gear practical lubricating data out there.
The other thing I recall was GMH here is Australia had a 4 speed manual gearbox they used in a lot of cars, the M21. Good box but had an issue with shifting when cold, esp in winter. The solution from GMH? Ditch the gear oil and run ATF. My father in law was involved in the testing and research on that one. Many thousands of those boxes ran many hundreds of thousands of KLM's for the rest of their lives on ATF without issues. So designed for gear oil and end up running for life on ATF.
Ciao
R&D is both theory and experimental (including field results) so these two examples sound interesting and eminently believable. In case you’re interested for rotational gear speeds >15 m/s my text book says you should use spray lubrication for superior cooling!
ATF in manual boxes is pretty common. Not sure why… I am not stuffing any more gear oil info into my head :boozing:
Toodle-pip
-
Were those M21 trannies straight cut gears ?
-
Were those M21 trannies straight cut gears ?
That I recall they were all helical including the M22 'rock crusher (I bought a new M22 in the 1980's)
Plenty of folk have run ATF in Norton Commando gearbox's with no problems (but elected to use Redline in that application also)
#
I will stick to the snake oil milkshake (Heavy) in the Moto Guzzi gearbox and FD and soon to have Royal Purple 20/50 HPS.
-
Were those M21 trannies straight cut gears ?
No, road cars don't use straight cut transmissions as they would drive you nuts with the noise. ( someone will dig something up now I just know it) As an aside auto transmissions are full of gears, planetary gears for the most part and designed to be lubed by ATF but many big gears in an auto trans just the same.
On a Carc bike the biggest worry you have is the pinion nut hasn't loosened of as they are lightly torqued from the factory without thread locker (Roper info) and when the lock washer lets them back off it destroys the Carc, not the absolute precise grade of gear oil you use.
Here's another fact of life in cars and bikes. A significant amount of the time even the official dealer servicing DOESN'T use the grade of oil specified,if it's an unusual grade they dont normally carry or isn't used in their shop. I know this for a fact as I've seen the receipts for the oil used from a dealer service with the wrong grade of oil that was used on the servicing receipt many times. Plus of course from friends in the industry that service bikes. Manufacturers know this sort of thing happens and by and large engineer their products to tolerate this. They obviously make a requirement but are usually smart enough to have enough "head room" in the design to allow for deviations. I think there'd be quite a few Griso's running around happily on 15W-50 or 10W-50 instead of the 10W-60 hard to get oil that no other bike the shop sells uses. I can guarantee you it's the same for gear oil, the dealer will use whatever is the nearest grade unless they have a decent requirement. But let the navel gazing continue, it's fairly amusing.
Ciao
-
On a Carc bike the biggest worry you have is the pinion nut hasn't loosened of as they are lightly torqued from the factory without thread locker (Roper info) and when the lock washer lets them back off it destroys the Carc, not the absolute precise grade of gear oil you use.
Nah...Bullshit.
That can’t be right...!
(https://i.ibb.co/3d5nwvr/AF3-F3-DDF-40-E4-4023-8593-9167-CA991-C0-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3d5nwvr)
(https://i.ibb.co/NpQcsd6/24-E7833-F-E318-4-B71-A112-064662-DFC926.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NpQcsd6)
Something that bad would NEVER happen to my bike... :popcorn:
-
Nah...Bullshit.
That can’t be right...!
(https://i.ibb.co/3d5nwvr/AF3-F3-DDF-40-E4-4023-8593-9167-CA991-C0-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3d5nwvr)
(https://i.ibb.co/NpQcsd6/24-E7833-F-E318-4-B71-A112-064662-DFC926.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NpQcsd6)
Something that bad would NEVER happen to my bike... :popcorn:
You've obviously been half a grade out in the gear oil you've been using, lol.
Ciao
-
You've obviously been half a grade out in the gear oil you've been using, lol.
Ciao
The nut came loose..!
-
The nut came loose..!
I know.
Ciao
-
You've obviously been half a grade out in the gear oil you've been using, lol.
Ciao
Should have used ATF fluid !
-
On a Carc bike the biggest worry you have is the pinion nut hasn't loosened of as they are lightly torqued from the factory without thread locker (Roper info) and when the lock washer lets them back off it destroys the Carc, not the absolute precise grade of gear oil you use.
How many CARCs have failed that way compared to not using the right EP grade oil though? I'd bet not using EP is far more common, but we'll never know.
Here's another fact of life in cars and bikes. A significant amount of the time even the official dealer servicing DOESN'T use the grade of oil specified,if it's an unusual grade they dont normally carry or isn't used in their shop. I know this for a fact as I've seen the receipts for the oil used from a dealer service with the wrong grade of oil that was used on the servicing receipt many times. Plus of course from friends in the industry that service bikes. Manufacturers know this sort of thing happens and by and large engineer their products to tolerate this. They obviously make a requirement but are usually smart enough to have enough "head room" in the design to allow for deviations. I think there'd be quite a few Griso's running around happily on 15W-50 or 10W-50 instead of the 10W-60 hard to get oil that no other bike the shop sells uses. I can guarantee you it's the same for gear oil, the dealer will use whatever is the nearest grade unless they have a decent requirement. But let the navel gazing continue, it's fairly amusing.
Viscosity at 100°C engine operating temp:
15W50 Motul 138.7 mm²/s
10W60 Motul 156.1 mm²/s
Viscosity at 40C gearbox operating temp:
Agip 85W90 206 mm²/s
Redline 75W90 100 mm²/s
Redline 75w140 175 mm²/s - looks ok
I agree to some extent. But 15W50 and 10W60 are very similar viscosity a the operating temperature of the engine. 85W90 is the gearbox spec for my bike and Redline 75W90 is nowhere near the spec, not just a bit off, it's in another ballpark in terms of viscosity at the likely operating temperature: it is about half the viscosity - I thought that, considering it was recommended by Opie, was pretty interesting in a Navally kinda way :boozing:. Glad you enjoy the oil thread, I love em, most don't. :popcorn: 75W140 looks ok for gearbox but is a rather expensive experiment imho. Oh, and far too viscous for the final drive
Don't get me started on using ATF. Jees, you may as well use olive oil (extra virgin with molyslip, obviously :thumb:)
-
The gearbox on my V7, running the stock oil, sounded and felt like a load of bricks in a cement mixer. I switched to Bel-Ray Big Twin Gear Oil 85w-140. Now it sounds and feels like a load of river stone in a blender. Shrugs. :boozing:
Best,
Mike
-
I know this is an old thread BUT I just got a Stelvio and her in the Arizona desert at 95 degrees the CARC Wass to hot to hold my hand on for more than a second or two.
-
The viscosity is just one part of the equation. And to be honest in a final drive or Guzzi gearbox not that important. There isn't many tight bearing surfaces or oil gallery's for it to go through.
What is important is the spec of the oil and film strength.
I am surprised to see GL4 species for a final drives. Its usually gl5 which has a higher EP spec.
-
Do the CARC bikes have any yellow metals in the gbx or bevel box?
That's usually the reason GL5 isn't specified AFAIK
That said there are quite a few oils whose spec sheets state they meet GL5 but are not aggresive to yellow metals
-
Here in the U.S., after a similar amount of homework I've chosen Chevron Delo ESI 85-140. It exceeds all the OEM specs by a wide margin; the only question unanswered is how long it takes to react with the humidity, as it's mentioned in the literature. I moved away from RedLine as it's so sticky it interferes with inspection and requires a rinse at changes.
-
Interesting discussion.
My auto parts store was out of 80W90, so I put 75W90 in the gearbox.
Valvoline synthetic, I think.
I'll do the same in the final drive. 75W might actually be a slight advantage in cool
weather like we get in Maine.
FWIW, I suspect that you could use almost anything in the gearbox. 10w50, 85W90,
or even ATF. I've owned vehicles specing(sp?) all of those for a manual gearbox.
Change it when you change the engine oil every 5K and it'll probably outlast the rest
of the bike.....
It seems that shearing forces on the oil would be particularly hard on the final drive
oil. There's an awful lot of force on that pinion! So, it's probably a good idea to stick
to gear oil there. 75W90 vs. 80W90? Not an awful lot to choose there, especially if
one changes it at every tire change. Service interval is 30K, so 75W90 should be fine
every 6K to 10K miles.
YMMV. :grin:
-Stretch
-
When you sit and stare at the CARC on your 200,000 km Norge and you are as far geographically from home as it’s possible to get…
You think of Roper, Michael and the Motul that you’ve put in there from day dot…
100,000 European kilometres, 100,000 Australian kilometres, hundreds of Alpine passes and 42 deg C Australian crossings.
Then you wonder if you should change what you’ve been doing… :rolleyes:
Do ya’ feel lucky..?
Well, do ya’….punk ?
-
+1 :laugh: . Peter
-
Basically the reason I don't think you can just run 75w90 is because the 90 bit isn't the weight of the oil at the temperature a guzzi operates at, i.e. it is not going to be 100 C more likely lower, so you don't want a 75w weight as it will be a bit too thin.
75w90. I think you may need to re-read what the numbers stand for and mean.
The "w" stands for "winter". 75w is the oil's characteristic at 0-degrees Fahrenheit. Not many of us begin our rides at that temp, so it's a bit of a moot point. Most of us don't start a ride at 0-F, and if for some reason we did, the bevel box and transmission would quickly warm to operating temps after a few miles.
As you mentioned, the 90 number is the oil's characteristic at 100-degrees Celsius. No, most of us don't ride at that air temperature, but the oils inside our motorcycles can certainly see that temp. 100-C = 212-F, or the boiling point of water. I think if you would take the trouble to check your Engine, Transmission, Bevel Box oil temperatures after a good ride, you might be surprised at those oils' temperatures. They'll be warmer than you think.
Though as someone above said, if it's oily it's probably ok. My argument with that is that overwhelming the people who say " I've run bikes for 50 year on olive oil" etc have never run one for 10,000 miles on the same oil and compared the wear rates to an identical bike ran for 10,000 miles on the right spec.
No one has done that. Not even the factory! But many of us have run the same oil for hundreds of thousands of miles over multiple bikes. My choice is Mobil-1 75w90 synthetic gear oil for engine and transmission on the Guzzis I've owned, and it's served me well.
-
Oil threads are funny. So many people determined to comment when really they actually know next to nothing about how oil works.
Viscosity is not a key factor in things like gearboxes. The spec of the oil (addives for shear, film strength and EP protection etc) is the vital thing.
Viscosity comes into play when you need to pump it through small holes or clearances.
-
Oil threads are funny.
They are. As are the wackadoodles, waxing on ad nauseam.
:rolleyes:
-
Oil threads are funny. So many people determined to comment when really they actually know next to nothing about how oil works.
Viscosity is not a key factor in things like gearboxes. The spec of the oil (addives for shear, film strength and EP protection etc) is the vital thing.
Viscosity comes into play when you need to pump it through small holes or clearances.
FYI......whatever. :rolleyes:
A riding buddy " Indian Chief" drives semis. When he bought his first one, he drove it for a week and went to change the fluids. The only oil that came out was engine oil. Not a drop in the rear ends.? He was hauling dirt IIRC. So doing a lot of shifting. :undecided:
Edit: I should mention he added fluids And carried on. That was about 5 yrs ago. No harm was done. ? Still driving it daily,
-
If it’s just to foster discussion or improve one’s knowlege then there’s no reason not to have a current oil thread running….
But.
Why would changing something that’s been successful for as long as you’ve ridden, even warrant a second thought ?
You might as well have a thread on new and interesting ways to wipe your ass…..
If you can still bight your fingernails and not dry reach, you’re doing it right…Don’t change a thing… :thumb:
-
Totally forgot about this topic, sorry to those that asked me about certain things. :embarrassed:
For what it's worth, the highest Temp I've seen from the CARC Unit to date is 73°C, crossing Central Spain during a heatwave, ambient temp was 43°C for a few hours.
I'll make an effort to relocate the Sensor to the Gearbox as soon as is practical for me.
Also, not wishing to start an Oil debate, but I've been using Mobil Jet II in my Gearbox and CARC Unit for nearly 30,000 miles.
Comes out as clean as it went in.
Specs far surpass any of the car/Bike Oils by a large margin.