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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: willowstreetguzziguy on August 07, 2021, 09:21:23 AM
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Just celebrated 50 years of motorcycle riding and since 1971, I’ve seen at least an eight fold increase in road traffic here in south-central Pennsylvania.. Over the first 40 of those years I had to deal with stupid drivers, drunken drivers and an occasional speeding motorist.
10 years ago, I began noticing distracted drivers with their cell phones and on board technology. Four years ago we traveled to and stayed in Asheville North Carolina. I noticed the drivers down there were much different. They were attentive, very courteous and they pretty much stayed close to the speed limit. I was very impressed because I had begun noticing a growing trend around here… Angry (drivers and riders) lawless behavior on the road..
Let me begin with distracted drivers. It’s not uncommon for me to wait three seconds or more at a stoplight for the driver ahead to realize it has turned green. My rule of thumb is I give them five seconds if they aren’t moving, I beep my horn. Several times recently I’ve been giving the finger. I am now careful to whom I beep my horn.
I’ve been passed on double yellow lines many times in rural areas, most recently in a rural area where the driver was passing on a double yellow coming toward me, in my lane at 75 mph!
TWICE we were in the city of York, PA recently and witnessed 4-5 riders in a 35 mph zone popping willies on their bikes traveling 60 mph through downtown. Speeding at 85 & 90 mph on 65mph highways is now common.
I have my own business so I travel around the area constantly and I’m seeing this type of behavior more and more. A woman from our area was gun down while she and her husband we’re celebrating their honeymoon and driving down through Virginia. They had made the mistake of unknowingly merging into an angry driver.’ lane. The angry driver pulled out his gun and shot her dead through her side window as they were driving down the highway! You may have heard about that..
Maybe it’s the pandemic, maybe it’s the political upheaval, the economy, increased drug use, lack of policing but there’s a major change in behavior in our society and as riders who are vulnerable, we have to be very much aware of what’s going on around us.
So I’m having to deal with stupid drivers, distracted drivers, drunk drivers, tailgaters, angry drivers and lawless drivers.
Is this happening in your area where you ride?
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Not where I live, in rural Burnet County Texas. I tend to ride at 55 mph or thereabouts, as that speed just is a "sweet spot" for me and my '04 Breva 750. Most of our rural roads are posted faster than that and what traffic we have generally wants to go faster than I do. My solution is to pull onto the shoulder (where one exists) and wave the following vehicle(s) by.
Last month began my 68th year of regular riding and I admit to always having been very wary on two wheels. Having moved here from SoCal three years ago has been a blessing in many respects in addition to more courteous drivers. I think rural drivers are more courteous, but that may reflect a much lower level of congestion. I'm 15 miles from the nearest traffic light and 16 miles from the nearest town.
Ralph
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I live in a semi-rural area that gets a fair share of tourist traffic. Locals drive a lot faster than the tourist, and occasionally will pass in ill-advised spots to get around the gawkers, but for the most part are pretty safe. There was a terrible wreck here last week where someone crossed the line and caused a head-on wreck, but wrecks are very rare here (two I can recall over the past three years). I occasionally have to go into Portland, and the distracted and incompetent outnumber good drivers by 15 to one. And nobody is polite behind the wheel anymore. Watch a few of those videos on YouTube and you can see how many accidents were caused by two egos, one determined to merge and one determined to not allow anyone in front of them. Just left and let the idiot in. Won't cost you any time, and can save you a lot of money and perhaps your life.
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SoCal has the same problem. Having been born here I found in the past that the native Californians were very good, courteous drivers. But that has all changed with the domestic and foreign immigration ( a lot of it illegal) out of hand. Imagine coming from a country that does not have much in the way of roadway etiquette and what do you get? Also, all the people that are glued to their phones constantly; that is a recipe for disaster. I have seen every possible scenario. I was about to change lanes back into the very far right lane and here zooms by a McLaren at about 110mph. Good thing I looked twice.
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Most driving "water" rolls off my back but two start making me mumble under my breath. First is people running in the left lane of interstates but not passing. Two is a combination of those that don't know how to merge and those that will not move out of an outer lane when they have plenty of room to let someone merge.
GliderJohn
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dang
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Most driving "water" rolls off my back but two start making me mumble under my breath. First is people running in the left lane of interstates but not passing. Two is a combination of those that don't know how to merge and those that will not move out of an outer lane wg=hen they have plenty of room to let someone merge.
GliderJohn
Those drivers are “Clueless Drivers” I forgot to mention that group. Add another to that list.
As the OP, I wanted to mention that even while off the bike or out of the car, just walking around and observing people, I have sensed for the last two years a “Frustration & Anger” in some people that’s just under the surface. And it probably comes out when they get out on the road.
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Well, here in the courteous south (sounds pretty ridiculous imho, I think less rude and arrogant is better..) there are places where the traffic is nearly as bad as up north with fast life or death stuff. The other big if not bigger danger are the real crackheads or their social-equivalent kissing cousins driving their barely functioning disposable POS beaters. They have noting to lose and no insurance to pay for it. If they wreck it, they've got another war story to brag about while they're at the ER again. Now there's driveways popping up everywhere as houses are built EVERYWHERE to accommodate thousands of transplants who are so sick of where they used to live that they want to be here to make into their new version of that place they left- bad habits et al....
Many of the good roads are now like the other roads that weren't good. Things change.
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New Haven…
It seems the newest trend is passing crowded stoplights by going the opposite direction in the travel lane..
That’s right…4, 2 lane intersections everyone stopped..from out pf line behind you comes a noisy buzzbox bombed out street ride driving in the wrong direction thru all 4 red lights
If his buddy is playing race car driver they’ll follow along behind
They threaten by not stopping…everyone freezes while the lights change and the errant driver lays down donuts in the intersection, then goes top speed away
Rules…who needs them
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Rules don’t apply to everyone, just to those who follow them. Everyone else is entitled to their own version of personal choice. Me? I’d like to see harsher penalties for those who ignore the laws that the rest of us try to live by.
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Well, here in the courteous south (sounds pretty ridiculous imho, I think less rude and arrogant is better..) there are places where the traffic is nearly as bad as up north with fast life or death stuff. The other big if not bigger danger are the real crackheads or their social-equivalent kissing cousins driving their barely functioning disposable POS beaters. They have noting to lose and no insurance to pay for it. If they wreck it, they've got another war story to brag about while they're at the ER again. Now there's driveways popping up everywhere as houses are built EVERYWHERE to accommodate thousands of transplants who are so sick of where they used to live that they want to be here to make into their new version of that place they left- bad habits et al....
Many of the good roads are now like the other roads that weren't good. Things change.
Yes........... thats it.
Ciao
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Re:merging...if you are on the highway it is not your responsibility to move over to allow a car to merge. It is the merging diver's responsibility to match speed of traffing and safely merge. That is why on ramps have a yield sign.
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Re:merging...if you are on the highway it is not your responsibility to move over to allow a car to merge. It is the merging diver's responsibility to match speed of traffing and safely merge. That is why on ramps have a yield sign.
Yeah, you could be dead right, but it might be more prudent to let the other car merge anyway.
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Seems like a lot of drivers of big pickups want to show off their horsepower on the interstates .
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From Two Checks:
Re:merging...if you are on the highway it is not your responsibility to move over to allow a car to merge. It is the merging diver's responsibility to match speed of traffing and safely merge. That is why on ramps have a yield sign.
A lawyer could argue that, anyway it is just safe driving. Having you move into an inner lane sure beats me having to come to a complete stop or nearly so at the end of the ramp.
GliderJohn
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Seems like a lot of drivers of big pickups want to show off their horsepower on the interstates .
Around here, diesel pickups like to gun it a spew smoke at drivers behind them at stoplights!
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Re:merging...if you are on the highway it is not your responsibility to move over to allow a car to merge. It is the merging diver's responsibility to match speed of traffing and safely merge. That is why on ramps have a yield sign.
Obviously. But it costs you but a glance in the mirrors to move over and make the road a safer place for both you and the merging car. Seems like a bargain to me.
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I’m not required to move left to allow someone to merge in, but if I can safely do it I will. It just seems right (or left). I tell my daughter that her most important responsibility is to let other drivers know clearly what she is doing and will do. I think that here on the Cape there are some stupid drivers, but most are courteous and no one wants to actually hit or get hit. Now cell phones - they terrify me.
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I live in farming region ,two lane roads and small towns for dozens of miles in every direction..Compared to what you guys mention most drivers here are not a problem..
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It's up to the merging driver to either speed up or slow down to merge Not the driver in that lane to adjust for the merger. Un-safe to think that a semi-tractor with a trailer to pull over for someone merging. "Mass kicks a$$." Simple physics.
Anecdotally, more of the idiot & rude drivers out here are recent transplants from the U.S. Mainland, mostly from California.
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It is not my responsibility to let you merge, but I am not going to risk my ride or my life to make that point. Too many people merge without looking, or wait till they get to the end of the ramp to look left and by then, they are out of room to accelerate and are moving 10mph slower than I am. As they floor it to lurch forward and swing left to avoid the shoulder of the road, I have anticipated their stupidity and taken steps (slowing slightly, moving left, or if prudent, speeding past their projected merge point) to protect myself. The right of way only matters in court- on the street, I am more interested in self preservation. My responsibility is to survive, not enforce traffic law or right of way.
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Y'ep.
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Columbus, Ohio drivers are one of the reasons I retired…and that was before - - hit.
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Re: Merging
You have the right of way, but if the other driver runs into you and you could have prevented it by changing lanes and allowing him to merge, the judge will find both of you liable — the other guy violated your right of way but you had the opportunity to take evasive action but choose not to. It’s your responsibility to drive defensively.
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I also find more stoned drivers here in Florida since medical Marijuana became prevalent the most popular type around here smells like skunk to me this adds to the list of problems as a daily rider
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If you move over as a matter of "allowing" the other driver to merge you are not avoiding a collision. You are ASSUMING if you don't move there would be a collision.
Using this logic means you should stop and allow drivers on side streets and parking lots to pull out to avoid a crash.
It is the merging driver's responsibility to yield.
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If you move over as a matter of "allowing" the other driver to merge you are not avoiding a collision. You are ASSUMING if you don't move there would be a collision.
Using this logic means you should stop and allow drivers on side streets and parking lots to pull out to avoid a crash.
It is the merging driver's responsibility to yield.
That's a horrible simile and an overall not a helpful attitude.
Moving over, while not compulsory is simple courtesy and increasing the margin of safety when possible. You can also speed up or slow down to achieve similar results.
A better comparison night be to say allow a driver from a side street to proceed before you when traffic is at a full stop or moving slowly. You don't have to do it, but when the opportunity arises everyone is better off for it and it cost you basically nothing.
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There are three main types of driving and riding in the UK:
1) Point and squirt, where the driver/rider is looking at an area about 20ft in front of them, accelerates hard and brakes hard.
2) I have right of way, where they follow the highway code to the letter and assume that because they have right of way everyone will yield.
3) Defensive riding/driving, where they have good all round awareness and look as far ahead as they can see. They assume that no-one has seen them or will yield.
I have seen countless people in the gutter or trapped in their car from groups 1 and 2. Group 3 live longer, you decide.
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Problem is, people merging have now come to expect everyone to move over and think when merging they have the right of way.
As a certain spoiled retired race car driver used to say, "they wouldn't let me pass today".
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Well then, let them have the right of way. Who cares really? What does it cost you, maybe a little wear and tear on the brake pads. I think people forget they have brakes, too.
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This "failure to yield right-of-way way" when entering a highway on an acceleration ramp is a real pet peeve of mine. First saw it as common practice south of the Mason Djcon line. The practice has migrated northward.
The "right of way" laws are designed to eliminate any confusion on procedure when transiting public roadways. Any deviance from the established regulation only creates confusion. Confusion causes accidents!
Too many people come off ramps paying no attention to "the total situation" and attempt to edge a traveling lane car left when the traveling lane car is blocked to their left. Only way out requires the traveling lane car to brake hard which increases their chances of being struck from the rear.
In general drivers have become $%#@!&^*>/@!$#&*! It's a dangerous world out there.
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For the past four years I've been adjusting to the relaxed pace of rural life and for the most part enjoy the lack of traffic slowdowns and the mostly higher level of courtesy. But I've also learned that if you wait long enough, you'll see every form of urban-driving stupidity practiced on our 50-mph two-lane roads. This morning a local mom posted on our town Facebook page that while driving her three kids home to her farm last night, at that 50 mph limit, she was tailgated by a pickup truck with his high-beams lit, honking at her to speed up or pull off -- which she would have done on a state road (which have pull-outs) but couldn't do it on a county road with the irrigation ditch on one side and no shoulder on the other. It's not just strangers passing thru -- there's a certain kind of local who grew up here and thinks that entitles him to ownership of the roads.
As for out-of-towners, there's slow-moving tourists (especially the big RVs or Harleys on parade) and the Denver motosport freaks -- the Porsche and Ferrari clubs and sportbike riders heading through our valley to get from one twisty pass to the next. Some of those are smart drivers, but some seem oblivious to what's around the bend: mudslide? rock fall? cow or elk? kid on a bike? I saw all of those driving home this morning.
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A few years ago I lived on st Croix in the virgin Islands for a few years brought my triumph sidecar rig anyone who believes that bs about living on island time is misinformed they honk at the very second the light turns green im glad I learned the carribbean cus words
(https://i.ibb.co/n0G5vsY/20150802-090005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n0G5vsY)
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Quote from: adaven on Today at 12:47:39 PM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=111728.msg1771782#msg1771782)Well then, let them have the right of way. Who cares really? What does it cost you, maybe a little wear and tear on the brake pads. I think people forget they have brakes, too.
So I should inconvenience others to make it convenient for one?
The people merging have brakes, also. And ot is their responsibility by law to seamlessly and safely merge.
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Now let's talk about roundabouts. There aren't any near me but when I go to Reno, I struggle with them. On my bike no problem, but my long wheelbase dually, that's something else. They do speed things up but?
kk
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Wow - some strong opinions on merging!
If I can allow someone to merge safely by soft-pedaling, (soft gripping on the bike?),
or changing lanes, I'll happily do so. And I'll tell ya - if you help semi driver in this manner,
you'll likely have made a new friend!
My rationale goes something like this:
1. Stopping on an acceleration ramp is DANGEROUS! It should be avoided at ALMOST any cost.
2. Allowing someone to or being allowed to safely merge reduces stress and road rage in all parties.
Angry drivers are dangerous drivers.
3. Smooth traffic flow and smooth merges help everybody. Smoother, safer, faster.
4. Yielding right-of-way laws aside, the very definition of merge - " to blend or come together without abrupt change-
i.e. merging traffic" seems to imply a give-and-take by both parties. A lot of public road driving requires that -
other examples will occur to the reader........ :wink:
-Stretch
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Trucks don't have the ability to accelerate or slow like a car. Usually its all they can do to get near the speed of traffic.
That said, why do so many feel they should slow or speed up when it is the merging driver's responsibility to do so?
They can do it just as easy as you. And they don't impede traffic by merging properly.
+1 on not stopping on a ramp.
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Lost a rider last week on a two lane state road. Don't know if he was one of the stupid or angry ones. Crossed a double yellow line to pass and rode head-on into an oncoming vehicle. RIP! :sad:
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Merging traffic from an “on ramp” onto a high speed interstate or other US highway, is one of the most dangerous situations we have on our highways today.
The city where I worked, as a motor office, was literally divided by two major 4 lanes running through it, I40 and US Highway 52.
The majority of the accidents I investigated on those highways were due to the EXIT and ENTRANCE ramps.
The information I am offering is the text book description of how these ramps are to be utilized and in no way includes personal opinions.
At the bottom or ending of the ramps are YIELD signs. The definition being “increase, decrease speed or stop when necessary”.
These ramps are designed for the user to build up the necessary speed to smoothly blend in with the traffic of which the road, the ramps are serving, without interruption of that traffic. One will notice there are usually a heavy white line at the end of the ramp which usually extends several yards. At the end of this line is where the ramps traffics “right of way” ends and their responsibility to YIELD begins.
The WORST thing a motorist can do is to abruptly reduce their speed or apply breaks, to allow a slow moving vehicle on that ramp to enter the right lane of travel. On a high speed highway, 65mph+, a vehicle suddenly hitting their breaks or drastically reducing their speed, even as a jester of kindness, can produce deadly results. Don’t ask me how I know this.
Where we as motorcycle riders must use the ultimate measure of caution it at CLOVER LEAF interchanges where the entrance ramps combine with the EXIT ramps. These types of ramps are no longer used in the construction on interstate highways in American, however there are thousands left in the nation. I cannot express enough caution that needs to be used on these ramps where high speed vehicles are attempting to both enter and exit a highway where vehicles are traveling at speeds exceeding 70 mph.
Just last week there was a fatality on I40 in Winston Salem NC, where I live, due to one of these exchanges.
Ride safe fellow WG family.
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Twice I have nearly done a high speed rear ender when entering an interstate looking to the left for an opening then look forward to find the car in front of me has come to a complete stop because they didn't think they could merge.
GliderJohn
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Some things I learned in drivers' ed classes still stick with me. One is, accelerate when changing lanes. You realize it's obviously safer when you do it. Unfortunately this takes anticipation, planning and awareness. Another is the "count to 3" rule to maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front of you, where when that vehicle passes a stationary object, you pass the same object after counting to 3. I think my kids told me they teach you to count to 2 now. I often wonder how drivers' ed classes have changed these days.
A pet peeve of mine is when someone in front of me decides to be "nice" and let another driver enter the road by slowing down. That's fine when they're aren't other drivers behind the "nice" one. It's not a recognition of who has right of way and is an example of random, unpredictable driving.
People camping in the middle or left lanes. Don't get me started. I lived in Germany a while. EVERYONE stays as far to the right as traffic will allow and only ventures into left-ish lanes when passing, and then gets back to the right as soon as possible. On speed limit free autobahns, you never know when a Porsche or Mercedes with full air dams is coming from behind at 220 km/hr. Germans must be perplexed when first driving on American multilane roads. It is so relaxing to drive on German autobahns because you can reliably predict how others will drive. In the US, who knows why anyone's in a particular lane? Big rig trucks used to stay mainly in the right most lanes. Now, they seem to stay in the middle of 3 lanes. So if you're in the right lane (keeping right unless passing) and want to pass, you have to make 4 lane changes instead of 2. This is one reason why I hate driving/riding on interstate roads.
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I’ve found that no matter where I’m currently living, that’s were the country’s worst drivers are. :sad:
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I’ve found that no matter where I’m currently living, that’s were the country’s worst drivers are. :sad:
When we moved to NJ (7 years ago now) I noticed a phenomenon. Maybe the rigid DL requirements and late age (17) for fully licensed drivers has an effect. The drivers around here (south jersey at least) are by and large both courteous and observant of many regulations (for instance pulling over for emergency vehicles).
In contrast the Philly suburbs that I had lived most of my life and NYC suburbs before that were bustling with idiots.
Growing up spending large parts of my summers in MA I was not impressed with drivers on the Cape either.
But in recent travels we noted very courteous drivers in CO (in and around Denver).
So I'm not sure what are observational biases and what are actual trends. But I suspect it's not the same everywhere, but also could have something to do with regional differences, population density, etc.
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Well, if someone asked me who the most polite drivers are that I’ve ever driven among for an extended period of time I’d have to say it would be the North Dakotans. But that’s primarily due to the fact there were so few of them.
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When we moved to NJ (7 years ago now) I noticed a phenomenon. Maybe the rigid DL requirements and late age (17) for fully licensed drivers has an effect. The drivers around here (south jersey at least) are by and large both courteous and observant of many regulations (for instance pulling over for emergency vehicles).
In contrast the Philly suburbs that I had lived most of my life and NYC suburbs before that were bustling with idiots.
Growing up spending large parts of my summers in MA I was not impressed with drivers on the Cape either.
But in recent travels we noted very courteous drivers in CO (in and around Denver).
So I'm not sure what are observational biases and what are actual trends. But I suspect it's not the same everywhere, but also could have something to do with regional differences, population density, etc.
I believe that traffic density is a big factor. Whenever I get to within a 20 or 30 mile radius of a large metropolitan area drivers appear to become more aggressive.
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Seems like a lot of drivers of big pickups want to show off their horsepower on the interstates .
I have found this to be true. The farther west you ride, the more dually pickups would pass me flying down the interstate at 95+ speeds. Texas and New Mexico should put a Super Duty 350 on their state flags!
Then there's this article about drivers in Florida and Miami. I was stunned by the percentage of drivers with suspended licenses:
"Miami-Dade Judge Steven Leifman told Miami Today that Florida uses a “high-fee model,” with most speeding tickets costing at least $200, which includes court fees. Almost a third of the drivers in Miami-Dade county—the state’s most populous—are driving with a suspended license, reported the publication."
Don't even get me started on what happens on Atlanta's interstates starting around 9 or 10pm on the weeknights.
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It should be easier to lose your licence for life.
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Well then, let them have the right of way. Who cares really? What does it cost you, maybe a little wear and tear on the brake pads. I think people forget they have brakes, too.
Deferring to the problem only feeds the problem, because the person who holds the incorrect belief is having that belief reinforced.
When I’m in the truck, I see people who pass on the inside breakdown lane to speed up to the front of the stationary traffic queue.
I get the greatest joy out of sitting in 65 tonnes of truck and waving them in ahead of me, whilst leaving not quite enough room....
If they were lost or had made a genuine mistake, I would open the space for them.
Other than that, they can get rooted.... :popcorn:
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Aggressive driving seems to becoming the norm everywhere. Here in the Texas of the north, oil country dictates that the typical vehicle is a quad cab 4x4 pickup with a lift kit and silly big wheels. My wife was twice crushed in her Miata and Z4 by said pickups changing lanes any looking in their mirrors. I have been nearly taken out many times by big ass trucks driven by young dudes, baseball cap backwards, white sunglasses, you all know the type. Don’t know why it is but have experienced the same all across the western USA and Canada. I just lay back and try to move over, I am not going to ‘win’ riding a bike.
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I have little idea what the finer points of this thread are, and with that I’ll say what I like to do.
When touring aka going somewhere where I won’t be sleeping in my bed, I ride considerably faster than traffic. I sometimes pass on double yellow, though I try to keep that to a minimum because a imagine it piss people off. I do try to use my blinkers all the time and back off the throttle when passing cages, so they don’t get subjected to needles noise.
I just ride fast, and reasonably polite.
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I live in the southeast corner of Arizona right on the Mexican border. Since - 19, the border has been closed for routine business,to our Mexican neighbors to the south, which make up 75% of the commerce here in this little town, so things are really "dead" here, as in the roads, and stores/ restaurants are mostly empty, which makes it great for motorcycling.
I have a small retirement house ,just south of Tucson, and thats a different story there. There are lots of angry, distracted , speeding drivers there, and it seems people are "pissed" all the time, ready to honk the horn ,or flip a bird , for anything. I have noticed, fewer and fewer courteous drivers, in that area. The police have been strict on device use while driving, and I have noticed a decrease in that distracted drivers, wandering all over the road! :thumb:
Rick.
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My impressions now for AZ is that no idiots are pulling firearms out. I use to open carry. The law got changed that anyone can conceal carry if they're legal. So no trying to intimidate someone by pulling a piece out.
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Aggressive driving has a new(?) contender - As we know high performance electric cars have a new kind of HP. It's immediate. It may be in the hands of an idiot. There is no noise, (except horn blowing). They do it because they can. In the past 2 weeks, 3 white cars. 2 Teslas and an SUV have passed me @ way more than double the 30m/h speed limit, on a hilly 2 lane, 2 mile stretch of road w/only shoulders or ditches on both sides. There are a few curves but the blind hills can be deadly. . . hence the name "Dead Horse Hill"; AKA Stafford St. An interesting history from back in the yclept Brass Era. BTW: Commuters are not a problem. "WAYZ" ? and other work around gps routers may be the the instigator. R3~
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https://youtu.be/EBC1CPVgw3w (in fairness, I believe the sound effects were added)
This one's a classic, happened a couple of days ago. The guy in the red truck had a kid in the car and was let go with a ticket. The Highway Patrol is reexamining based on the video.
(https://cdn.field59.com/KWTV/5009f68ab21984b8200e0bdf4bf9652f1842971a_Road_Rage_8_9_custom.jpg)
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A friend of mine's incredibly popular. Everywhere he goes other drivers hoot and wave to him.
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Sorry , a ticket is inappropriate in that situation .
TS
Yep, the charge should “ADW in attempt to conflict death or serious injury”
GS- 14-32