Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: willowstreetguzziguy on August 29, 2021, 02:30:39 PM
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Does it matter to most Guzzi riders if the next big Guzzi is water cooled? Or are you a died in the wool air cooled rider.
I owned 2 water cooled BMW K75’s from 1986-20017 with absolutely no cooling issues. Needed more character so I switched to th MG 1200 Sport for more character. I do like the simplicity of the air cooled engine and hate to see it fade into history.
I can’t see myself getting ride of the 12S and getting a water cooled Guzzi. I could see adding a Royal Enfield Himalayan though.
So the question is… Would you consider buying a water cooled Guzzi? Or not?
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Water cooling would be a deal breaker. I’m a dyed in the wool fan of air-cooled.
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Makes.zero.differen ce to me. All that matters is that it's good looking and a joy to ride.
-AJ
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I can’t see myself getting ride of the 12S and getting a water cooled Guzzi.
Think if it's hybrid.
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Hi all, 8-29-21
If I were in the market for a bike...sure, I'd follow the technology. Being water cooled would not keep me from buying a Guzzi. Just like when it went from carbureted to EFI, from electrical to electronic ignition, drum brakes to discs, cables to hydraulics, tubes to tubeless, etc. As with all new technology, I'm sure MG will have it's hiccups. I guess that's part of the Guzzi charm. :wink:
Be well, stay well,
DougG
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I don't really care - as long as it still 'feels Guzzi' when I ride it.
Cheers,
D.
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Water cooling would be a deal breaker. I’m a dyed in the wool fan of air-cooled.
Same here, why change something that's working?
Never had an air cooled bike overheat.
But have, and heard of cars/trucks overheating.
Fan belts fly off, radiators leak, thermostats go bad.
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Water-cooled engines makes no difference to me...but I have owned / ridden mainly air cooled bikes... :wink:
I will reserve my judgement until I see the rest of this new V1000 Guzzi... :thumb: :boozing: :cool:
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Not a problem, would buy one tomorrow. I love my air cooled Norge but my K1100 has 160K miles, not drip, no overheating.
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I love steam train engines, horse drawn drays and ox carts too...keeping up with tech ,and particularly in terms of efficiency and pollution, is wise though if you are trying to sell vehicles.
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Not a problem, would buy one tomorrow. I love my air cooled Norge but my K1100 has 160K miles, not drip, no overheating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X45nbXGyT0w
https://www.k100-forum.com/t1389-solved-k100-radiator-flush-or-thermostat-change-to-tackle-heat-problem
https://www.k-bikes.com/threads/k1100-overheat.18481/
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I have, and he will be at the Ohio rally if anybody thinks I'm lying! You can ask him yourself.
As for the rest of it, give it a rest. Anyone with a brain knows water cooling will allow engines to meet more strict emissions standards, not to mention extract more power. Unless you're a youngster, there will be plenty of air cooled bikes around for years. You'll simply find a used bike that someone never rode and buy it cheap.
Overheated when he left it running, then stopped at an all you can eat buffet :laugh:
John Henry
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Yes, I would have NO problem with a water cooled Guzzi. It is, most likely, the wave of the future in addition to the added performance one can get from a water cooled engine. I am not married to the air cooled Guzzi models...
Tony
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it matters if you want to see a modern performance oriented Guzzi ...but I understand the resistance and perhaps an air-cooled big block would be a nice addition too?
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I prefer air cooling, I just think it’s cool. I don’t think I’ll choose to own one, but I’m not going to say it will never happen, especially if it is a cool Guzzi!
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I've had both and I prefer air-cooled but I also do not care what any manufactures does to evolve/survive. If you are asking would I buy a water cooled Guzzi? As long as its not a cardan driven bored out small block in a 40 year old Tonti frame........maybe!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X45nbXGyT0w
https://www.k100-forum.com/t1389-solved-k100-radiator-flush-or-thermostat-change-to-tackle-heat-problem
https://www.k-bikes.com/threads/k1100-overheat.18481/
Yeah, you are right! All water cooled bikes suck and they won't sell a single one. Air cooled is the way of the future, thats why all new bikes are air cooled. Jeeze, how did my K1100 stay together? Lucky i guess. Now, i need an air cooled car, lots of choice . . .
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Yeah, you are right! All water cooled bikes suck and they won't sell a single one. Air cooled is the way of the future, thats why all new bikes are air cooled. Jeeze, how did my K1100 stay together? Lucky i guess. Now, i need an air cooled car, lots of choice . . .
even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in awhile :laugh:
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And as far as the government concerned about the emission of the relatively few large displacement motorcycles,
look at all those jets flying by, the factories, the trucks, coal-fired power plants, and deforestation.
Concerned government? Yeah, that, why cigarettes are still being sold. Over $5 per pack in taxes.
The cancer comes as a bonus.
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Really
Sorry Dusty, I'll try not to be so honest :rolleyes:
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If I can get 110 reliable HP out of a 1000 instead of a measley 65, hell yes.
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I suppose we could go back to leather belt drive?
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*****Caution needed******
We are easing a little close to certain subjects that we all know are are prohibited on WG.
Everyone step back a bit. Thanks.
Dan
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A water cooled Guzzi? Sure.
A water cooled Guzzi built outside of Italy? Deal breaker.
Sorry..
YMMV.
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I've ridden air cooled Kawasakis and water cooled ones...
I've ridden air cooled Honda's and water cooled ones...
I've ridden air cooled Ducati's and water cooled ones...
I've driven air cooled VW's and water cooled ones...
In all cases the air cooled ones are neat, cool, fun & nostalgic, but they are not better than the water cooled ones.
Time and technology march on.
I'll not get rid of my air cooled Guzzi's, but if the stars align and I'm attracted to it, then I'll own a water cooled one too.
Eric
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If I can get 110 reliable HP out of a 1000 instead of a measley 65, hell yes.
Plus 1 ^
Now we can start thinking about a 140hp Lemans VI
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I think most Guzzi fans would scoff at MG deciding to go with a different layout of the engine quicker that choosing to go liquid-cooling. Within 20 years, let’s consider how many motorcycle companies will be making air-cooled bikes, or SOLELY air-cooled bikes for that matter. As the Euro regs go, so go the rest of the world. It’s inevitable. Honestly, if it makes better engineers out of manufacturers, and cuts down on pollution…why not. If you don’t like it, there’s a plethora of vintage bikes to stick with.
That said, if Moto Guzzi goes instead with two different engines with two different types of cooling, all the better, in my opinion. Give folks options while not fading into obscurity.
Want air-cooling that meets strict emissions restrictions AND has great performance? Well, there’s a pad and pencil. Go design one ;)
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I hope they follow Triumph's lead on the t120 and keep the cylinder fins , makes for a smaller radiator also. Hopefully dual lambda's and a stock map that actually works everywhere.
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tighter emission water cooling is the best way to control it wh
y do you thing all the reliable as hell engines went away 4.0 jeep ,7.3 ford diesel , 350 chevy, slant six, emissions is the main reason liquid cooling is around the corner for all motorcycles just before electric comes around
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Water cooling doesn't bother me, as long as they don't hang a suitcase of a radiator on the front.
(https://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/jpg/200608/2006-triumph-rocket-iii-1.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/s2si9RqB9N8/maxresdefault.jpg)
But they'd better not ditch the longitudinal-crank V-twin, unless it's with something equally unique.
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If I'm going to buy a liquid cooled bike I'll buy it from one of the dealers here in town instead of traveling 300 miles to the nearest Guzzi dealer.
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Really
Sorry Dusty, I'll try not to be so honest :rolleyes:
Just out of curiosity, which Guzzi do you own and when was the last new Guzzi you bought from a dealer?
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Over the years I've had air only, air/oil and water cooling. It's never been an active thought in deciding to purchase, ride or enjoy. Though with Moto Guzzi, I'd very likely give them a few years to work the bugs out of any water cooling system they's release. The reason being their lack of experience in anything but air and air/oil cooling.
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Over the years I've had air only, air/oil and water cooling. It's never been an active thought in deciding to purchase, ride or enjoy. Though with Moto Guzzi, I'd very likely give them a few years to work the bugs out of any water cooling system they's release. The reason being their lack of experience in anything but air and air/oil cooling.
I don’t think you would need to be hesitant Mark, I believe Guzzi has much experience with liquid cooling, but I could be wrong. Certainly Piaggio, much like Polaris, had extensive experience with modern liquid cooling, hopefully they could help Guzzi get it right.
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Plus 1 ^
Now we can start thinking about a 140hp Lemans VI
I say 160, do I hear 170?
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If I can get 110 reliable HP out of a 1000 instead of a measley 65, hell yes.
Well said!
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I don’t think you would need to be hesitant Mark, I believe Guzzi has much experience with liquid cooling, but I could be wrong. Certainly Piaggio, much like Polaris, had extensive experience with modern liquid cooling, hopefully they could help Guzzi get it right.
Yes, you're correct Chad. I forgot about Aprilia and other Piaggio divisions.
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All air cooled engines are on their way out. BMW had to water cool the boxer twin too. Result, 30% more power, increased reliability and they are flying out of the showrooms.
A water cooled Guzzi would be great. Still a 90 degree transverse twin with shaft drive but quieter, more efficient and more powerful. If they get it right, they will be able to compete on the world stage again!
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If I can get 110 reliable HP out of a 1000 instead of a measley 65, hell yes.
Close the phone lines, we have a winner!
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Think if it's hybrid.
Don't see the point of half arseing it if you are going water cooling do it, or are you talking a petrol/electric hybrid?
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Don't see the point of half arseing it if you are going water cooling do it, or are you talking a petrol/electric hybrid?
Petrol/electric.
Piaggio already made the MP3 Hybrid in 2010.
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tighter emission water cooling is the best way to control it wh
y do you thing all the reliable as hell engines went away 4.0 jeep ,7.3 ford diesel , 350 chevy, slant six, emissions is the main reason liquid cooling is around the corner for all motorcycles just before electric comes around
Exactly. You may have noticed that your air cooled Guzzi, (if you still have one) takes a while on a cold morning to reach its ideal temperature, which means that, even with fuel injection, it will run richer than it needs to, which, of course, means worse emissions and less than optimal gas mileage. And once it is fully warmed up, if the temp is too high, the motor will put out a different mix of pollutants that includes nitrogen oxides. This assumes that the engine is tuned up to optimal performance.
Also, realize that Guzzi has to sell bikes in Europe and other parts of the world as well, where emission levels are even more stringent than ours. Engine noise is also another reason to move to water cooling, and overseas they are more strict than us.
I am a fan of air cooled bikes, and have never owned a liquid cooled one, but I agree, liquid cooling will happen before the industry transitions to electric only propulsion.
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WTH, I'll add my voice to the chorus.
Would I consider one - SURE. I'll consider just about anything.
Generally speaking I prefer Air Cooled bikes because I enjoy the relatively simplicity and don't need the extra ponies.
But Guzzi could wooo me to own another water-cooled bike if the result is attractive, not maintenance intensive, and most importantly they give me things that they refuse to on the other air-cooled models that I like (V7/V9) - i.e. dual discs, USD forks, mono-shock/SSSA all with the good looks and riding ergos of the V7/V9.
And even if this model ISN'T for me I'm glad they'll build it for others. The current lineup is too limiting for many riders. More appeal = better future success.
On the hybrid thing/cooling fins. Why not. My understanding is that some of the OEMs that have done that have designed it so the motor will keep going on air-cooling only if needed. So bust a hose, lose a water pump, have a thermostat stick shut and you can still get home. Sounds great to me. I also like the looks.... so there's that too.
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Ive had mostly air cooled bikes. I do like the simplistically of them, and also the looks. I really dont care for the looks of a modern water cooled motorcycle engine. Not a big deal in something like a sport bike, or a touring bike, where its all covered anyways, but on a open naked bike, I like the look of the aircooled engines. There really is zero doubt that the water cooled is better. Controlling the temp of the engine allows better tuning giving improved efficiency performance, and life span. As another upside, the makers can put better sounding pipes/mufflers on the bike, that meet standards, but still have some rumble when you loose some of the engine ringing from the fins, and open jugs. So ya.. I would buy a water cooled Guzzi. But only if they got the look of the engine right, and keep the Guzzi feel.
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some years ago Harley ( I think) was able to lower the amount of valve clatter and other noises which allowed them to open up the exhaust slightly for a little more tone. presumably, if water cooling quiets down other engine noises, perhaps the exhaust on MG's could be a little more present as well from the factory that is.
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I must be the oddball here.
I'm a lot more concerned about the side exhaust pipes than water cooling. Burnt human body partss, breaking cylinder heads off in a mild tipover...
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And as far as the government concerned about the emission of the relatively few large displacement motorcycles,
look at all those jets flying by, the factories, the trucks, coal-fired power plants, and deforestation.
Concerned government? Yeah, that, why cigarettes are still being sold. Over $5 per pack in taxes.
The cancer comes as a bonus.
Ya come to think of it you just might be right. :thumb:
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Ya come to think of it you just might be right. :thumb:
Or perhaps it’s government using a step of limitation rather than or before going full cancellation, while also allowing gains to be procured while A is still utilized.
Like “there are reasons why you shouldn’t be using THIS, but for whatever reasons that may be, we cannot or will not prohibit you yet, so in the meantime, we will make it a little more harder (or add incentive to move toward THAT), and get something positive out of A while you continue to use it.”
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Just make the engine look better than a CX500. Look to Triumph twins for how to make a water cooled engine look good - esp. the radiator.
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Just make the engine look better than a CX500. Look to Triumph twins for how to make a water cooled engine look good - esp. the radiator.
I prefer the look of the CX500.
The CX500 is the example I always make to argue that a liquid cooled engine can be nice to see and that's better for liquid cooled cylinder to not have fake fins.
Unfortunately OHC or DOHC cylinders can't be so "cylindrical". The heads must be squared.
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The big blocks are going away because they can't meet Euro 5. I kind of wonder why. The new BMW R 18 is air/oil cooled and meets the standards all be it with a low amount of horsepower for the size of the motor. So with the big blocks, air and oil cooled, is it actually because of the emissions that can't be met or awful clatter coming from the valve train?
As to the question as to whether I would own a water cooled bike or not? One reason for no is the ease of maintenance on an air cooled bike. Yes for water cooled for all the reasons already posted. And the current long lived anti-freeze coolants is another plus.
kk
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A few years ago when I was stuck in stop and go traffic in Phoenix for over 30 minutes, outside temperature was 112 and the MGX I had was so hot I could fry an egg off the valve cover, I was sure wishing for water cooling.
This Indian Challenger that I have, the fan comes on around 205 degrees and it cools back down to 180 degrees in about 30 seconds, sitting still on a 90+ degree sunny Ozark day. Yes, water cooling is good. It's important to me and it should be important to anyone competing in the motorcycle manufacturing world today. "Adapt or die" comes to mind.
But, I still LOVE my two air cooled Tontis.
My $.02
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The big blocks are going away because they can't meet Euro 5. I kind of wonder why. The new BMW R 18 is air/oil cooled and meets the standards all be it with a low amount of horsepower for the size of the motor. So with the big blocks, air and oil cooled, is it actually because of the emissions that can't be met or awful clatter coming from the valve train?
I was always told that combustion chamber volume and hp were part of the emissions puzzle.
That without water-cooling OEMs needed to go to larger and larger cubic capacities to increase hp but to meet tightening emissions standards they could not increase hp nearly as much as with water-cooled motors. But that the volume and lower hp numbers made it possible for them to meet the standards.
As such the problem with the Guzzi big blocks seems likely that they couldn't increase the volume sufficiently to make the necessary power and meet tighter emissions, while motors like the Harley M8 and the BMW R18 (or even the R9T with the obviously lower output from the R1200/1250 models) still can. Though I do have to wonder if the days of the R9T are numbered.
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You right. I have read that also. I was surprised how low the horsepower rating is for the R18 with such a large engine. My 1400 makes more with lower displacement and Guzzis aren't powerhouses compared to other brands.
kk
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It seems that the trend here is, those who wrench on their own bikes are opposed to indifferent to a water cooled Guzzi. And those that do not wrench on their own bikes are indifferent to in favor of a water cooled Guzzi. Simplicity and ease of working on seems to be the number one reason people are saying they prefer air cooled bikes.
-AJ
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It seems that the trend here is, those who wrench on their own bikes are opposed to indifferent to a water cooled Guzzi. And those that do not wrench on their own bikes are indifferent to in favor of a water cooled Guzzi. Simplicity and ease of working on seems to be the number one reason people are saying they prefer air cooled bikes.
-AJ
Curious how you extracted the data on those who wrench and those who don’t. Was that something I forgot to put in my profile signature?
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Curious how you extracted the data on those who wrench and those who don’t. Was that something I forgot to put in my profile signature?
It's an educated guess based on comments made on this thread, the Sportster S thread, and the spy photo thread, and years of people posting. Oh course I could be wrong.
-AJ
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If an aircooled Guzzi was significantly lighter than a new watercooled Guzzi, maybe not.
If aircooled meant 500 lb 1000cc bike vs a 650 lb water-cooled bike, then NO.
BUT...
Modern designs seem to add water-cooling without much weight gain and my watercooled bikes have been dead nuts reliable in the cooling department.
The water-cooled bike might be harder to restore or keep running when long in tooth in the long term...but who cares about long term, anymore?
Guzzi is not as steadfastly routed with air cooling as a necessity of its intrinsic design aesthetic as is HD, therefore to me its just a matter of performance rather than faithfulness to original design. The transverse engine configuration is more congruent to a transverse radiator in front, anyway.
Owing to that, if they do it right, the radiator could be very unobtrusive and almost inconspicuous if it was shaped properly and integrated into the engine/frame shape on a transverse V.
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I absolutely LOVED my '60 VW Beetle with the bulletproof 36HP engine that would run on practically anything combustible. Easy to work on, easy on the pocketbook, and a hit with the ladies BUT:
Volkswagen saw the writing on the wall in the '70's regarding meeting evolving emission/fuel mileage/crash standards and realized that even though they sold a galactic buttload of the things and the air-cooled engine was a HUGE selling point they would be unable to meet those standards with that design without overcoming HUGE engineering roadblocks so they killed the air-cooled design and the Rabbit/Golf was born.
You can imagine if VW with wads of R&D cash to burn on testing and certification couldn't make the numbers work, then what's a small boutique manufacturer like Moto Guzzi going to do?
The world moves on and perhaps our great-grandchildren will be the true winners.
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I absolutely LOVED my '60 VW Beetle with the bulletproof 36HP engine that would run on practically anything combustible. Easy to work on, easy on the pocketbook, and a hit with the ladies BUT:
Volkswagen saw the writing on the wall in the '70's regarding meeting evolving emission/fuel mileage/crash standards and realized that even though they sold a galactic buttload of the things and the air-cooled engine was a HUGE selling point they would be unable to meet those standards with that design without overcoming HUGE engineering roadblocks so they killed the air-cooled design and the Rabbit/Golf was born.
It was a bit later than the '70s when VW "killed" the original air-cooled engine. It just wasn't for sale in most of the world.
"By 2002, over 21 million Type 1s had been produced, but by 2003, annual production had dropped to 30,000 from a peak of 1.3 million in 1971. VW announced the end of production in June 2003, citing decreasing demand, and the final original Type 1 VW Beetle (No. 21,529,464) rolled off the production line at Puebla, Mexico, on 30 July 2003, 65 years after its original launch."
And then there is Porsche (sold in all markets):
"Air-cooling reigned supreme up until the introduction of the Porsche 911 996 in 1998. This makes the Porsche 911 993, produced from 1994-1998, one of the most sought-after models around. It's the very last of the air-cooled 911s."
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I loved my 65 Ghia after engine was rebuilt following a catastrophic piston slap that broke a cylinder while going up that Mission Hill in San Diego .
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I loved my 65 Ghia after engine was rebuilt following a catastrophic piston slap that broke a cylinder while going up that Mission Hill in San Diego .
LOVE Karmen Ghia's.....but "I just HATE when that happens...." :laugh: :grin: :wink: :rolleyes: :shocked:
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I would definitely buy a water cooled Guzzi, but I just worked a 4 day bicycle race over the weekend and it was hotter than 10 kinds of fire and no overheating issues on the TT.
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I'm just happy to hear that Guzzi has the resources to develop a completely new engine and model in these tough economic times. I hope the V :thumb:1000 is another hit for them, following on from the V85.
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It all comes down to why I bought Moto Guzzi in the first place.
Style and clean look with no fake or imitation parts, like fake carbon fiber, air scoops, etc.
Shaft drive on a non-cruiser mid displacement bike.
No eyesore of a radiator.
I am no against liquid cooling, but the radiator needs to be integrated into the lines of the bike or hidden from view as much as possible.
If Guzzi looked like any other bike, I would go back to Japanese bikes.
I don't much care about HP. I couldn't ride any faster through the curves with more HP.
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A water cooled Guzzi? Sure.
A water cooled Guzzi built outside of Italy? Deal breaker.
Sorry..
YMMV.
My exact thoughts. We all know that some parts are sourced 'elsewhere' *cough couch* but if they outsource the motors, or major manufacturing and assembly, to China/India/et-al, that's a deal breaker.
Aircooled is my preference, and what makes a motorcycle, but I have had a couple IL4 Watercooled bikes (C-10 Concours/FJR). My favorite and longest owned motorcycle is a Yamaha XS1100. Air cooled/shaft drive. That is what I prefer, and what drew me to Moto Guzzi. I'm open to what Guzzi brings to the table.
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If an aircooled Guzzi was significantly lighter than a new watercooled Guzzi, maybe not.
If aircooled meant 500 lb 1000cc bike vs a 650 lb water-cooled bike, then NO.
BUT...
Modern designs seem to add water-cooling without much weight gain and my watercooled bikes have been dead nuts reliable in the cooling department.
The water-cooled bike might be harder to restore or keep running when long in tooth in the long term...but who cares about long term, anymore?
Guzzi is not as steadfastly routed with air cooling as a necessity of its intrinsic design aesthetic as is HD, therefore to me its just a matter of performance rather than faithfulness to original design. The transverse engine configuration is more congruent to a transverse radiator in front, anyway.
Owing to that, if they do it right, the radiator could be very unobtrusive and almost inconspicuous if it was shaped properly and integrated into the engine/frame shape on a transverse V.
a water-cooled bike despite the radiator, water pump, and the rest will likely be lighter than an air-cooled bike. At least that's that's the way it's worked out for all the modern bikes. Lighter and more powerful. Even the new Harley Pan Am weighs 560 lb. About 10lb heavier than a Sportster or 70lb lighter than a Softail. (Google it)
Go down the line and you'll see manufacturers are integrated more tech than just the water pump.
Aesthetics are a different issue.
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You can imagine if VW with wads of R&D cash to burn on testing and certification couldn't make the numbers work, then what's a small boutique manufacturer like Moto Guzzi going to do?
Motorcycle engines and their needs are not the same as car engines, as demonstrated by BMW attempting to phase out air cooled engines in the 80s, and then backpedaling into a line of air cooled motorcycle engines that is still in production. They make both for a reason, just as Guzzi will.
Guzzi production numbers are not high, but its not a boutique manufacturer in terms of resources. Guzzi is a brand and an assembly plant of a large vehicle manufacturer (Piaggio) which makes about 500,000 vehicles in total annually and for some time now has done all Guzzi design and engineering.
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I’m fine with water cooling and realize it may be needed for ever more stringent pollution laws but it’s not for me. I will continue to ride air cooled bikes until they are gone. At my age I’m not worried about running out of choices.
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Water cooling is fine by me, I have a couple of water cooled bikes. I have what I call the scotch test. For a vehicle to pass, I have to be able to stare at it for hours while sipping on two fingers of scotch.
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I don't mind watercooling... I just don't look the look of radiators, it makes the bike (in general) look less 'clean'.
I love my Honda, but the Guzzi looks much cleaner.
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Just for a clarification, It's Piaggio that designs the engines for Piaggio/Aprilia/Guzzi, it's Piaggio that builds them in Pontedera and it's Piaggo that decides what brand can use them. This engine will be or built in Tuscany and only finally assembled in Mandello, or arrive in Mandello already completely assembled.
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Dont see the point of a L/C V longitduinal Vtwin. Surley its all about cooling those cylinders. Parallel twin makes more sense for L/C. Yes I have seen that monstrosity of the BMW L/C boxer. WTF is that. I nn fact isnt the engine completly unsuitable. Need 2 sets of water jackets and piping, plus the exit of the radiator is blocked by the cylinders?
Kev