Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: aklawok on September 06, 2021, 05:50:09 AM
-
I came across this from a mfr. (REV X) while searching oil additives and it gave a good explanation. according to the video it does not start activate until 700f. and fully till 1100f. I hope this is informational to all.
https://d2y5sgsy8bbmb8.cloudfront.net/v2/03a01d94-25a0-58dd-b9f5-8d31f5d8b0f2/ShortForm-Generic-480p-16-9-1409173089793-rpcbe5.mp4
from mfg (REV X):
"ZINC (ZDDP) is widely known to be the prime ingredient to protect flat tappet cams and valve train components within engines with high valve spring pressure, to control aggressive camshaft profiles. ZINC is also the protective additive necessary to protect older vintage engines that were produced when Zinc was the primary additive used to provide the last measure of protection against catastrophic failure. The proper amount of ZINC is to be used in relation to engine oil for the ideal amount of protection. Zinc provides the proper amount of the ZDDP additive to treat six quarts of engine oil, giving the proper ratio of 3000-3200 ppm for proper engine break in and protection of high pressure valve train components. Blended with a light base mineral oil that aids in the quick and complete dispersion into any engine oil for fast activation and protection during first startup. For maximum protection ZINC must be reapplied to engine oil when the oil and filter are changed."
"As ZINC (ZDDP) is heated it creates a film that coats the engine parts with an anti-wear layer, think of it as a sacrificial layer that will wear away preventing wear on your vital engine parts. This is very beneficial for flat tappet motors, which have as the name suggests a flat lifter. When the engine is running the cam lobe is in constant contact with the flat surface of the tappet. This creates high temperatures due to the friction between the two. If the protective film created by the ZDDP was not present this heat and friction would wear away at the lifters and cam leading to engine failure."
-
All too confusing for me. Whatever meets oem specs (sae, jaso, etc.) is what I use and it usually boils down to Walmart Supertech or Shell Rotella. Or in the case of the rear drive some of the bikes require moly additive too.
And, what is the 700F, about? The only thing that reaches that temp is the combustion chamber & exhaust track...not cam & lifters.
Another oil thread :smiley:
-
All too confusing for me. Whatever meets oem specs (sae, jaso, etc.) is what I use and it usually boils down to Walmart Supertech or Shell Rotella. Or in the case of the rear drive some of the bikes require moly additive too.
And, what is the 700F, about? The only thing that reaches that temp is the combustion chamber & exhaust track...not cam & lifters.
Another oil thread :smiley:
hit the nail on the head...I have not heard this about temp. needed for it to work! not interested in another oil thread either. depending on the product, ZDDP is only recommended for older( pre 2000's or pre 2004?) as manufactures have built the new spec oil(SL,SN) into their designs and fewer have flat tappets. does anyone across the pond know how this has effected new euro emission standards?
-
I find it puzzling that the 2021 V7 E5 (850cc) engines specify API grade G (high ZDDP) oil, even though the engine has roller valve lifters. Can someone explain that?
-
what I am more interested in is how MG can still specify for grade G in 2021 and meet the EURO 5 emissions?
-
It may have to do with it being a pushrod design and the points of contact between the pushrod, rocker arm and valve stem. There may be a timing chain/gears. Not quite like most car motors.
The chemical engineers and tribologists need to know why, not me.
-
Don't worry, no emission standards in Nome :grin:
-
And, what is the 700F, about? The only thing that reaches that temp is the combustion chamber & exhaust track...not cam & lifters.
My understanding is that where there is metal to metal contact, then you reach the high temps where the ZDDP does its stuff. No metal to metal, then no high temps.
Just as a data point, that really has little value. I used a ZDDP additive in my Stelvio knowing it was a problem. The flat tappets still failed at around 50,000 miles. No idea what that means, but there it is.
-
ZDDP is a multi-functional additive, and there's more than one kind (including the activation temp, consumption rate). ZDDP is a primary anti-wear additive, and a secondary (but quite effective) anti-oxidant, and anti-corrosion additive. It does lots of things, and does them very inexpensively but well. There are replacements for each of its functions, but mostly they're more expensive than ZDDP or have other factors limiting their use.
Here are some references, the last 3 of which were started by a professional lube formulator and physicist:
https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STLE_ORG/BOK/LS/Additives/The%20Chemistry%20and%20Function%20of%20Lubricant%20Additives.pdf
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/differentiating-zddps.344368/
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/simple-explanation-of-zddp-synthesis.276902/
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/a-new-theory-of-zddp-film-formation.256672/
-
Thanks for the links bulwnkl :thumb: this all has made the rabbit hole I am tracing down just deeper and wider!
from what I postulate ZDDP can work in conjunction with Moly, and form films on ferrous metal under high sheer stress or friction, with or without high temperature (the said 700f) just not as much. ZDDP also has anti-oxidant properties as well. the only downside (as an additive) is that it can contaminate catalytic converters in newer vehicles built to not need it and its use in "break in oils" require it be changed out quickly.
-
Combined with high doses of Vitamin C, Zinc cures -!
-
Combined with high doses of Vitamin C, Zinc cures -!
So, do I had 500mg of vitamin C to a sick engine?! :shocked:
:evil:
-Stretch
-
It's the main ingredient in snake oil
-
A scientific treatise I read some years back concluded that in flat tappet engines, under pressure and heat metal to metal contact could become a problem and cause a term they called "microwelding". This is where, momentarily and almost at an atomic level, the two surfaces welded themselves to each other. Of course, the power of the engine quickly broke that weld. This process could go on for thousands of miles until finally the hardening wore through and the failure avalanched. They found that of all the additives around ZDDP was still the best additive at preventing this happening; I think the recommended dose is something like 1800ppm but don't quote me on that.
Down on the backside of the planet we are fortunate that Penrite, an Ozzie company, specialises in making oddball oils for oddball stuff like vintage cars and bikes, and oddball flat tappet engines that require 10W60 weight oil with a full zinc loading. Not only that, I can wander down to my local Supercheap and buy it off the shelf as they stock almost the entire range of Penrite oils. :thumb:
-
Well, you know all of us like our "odd ball" stuff... why else are we here :shocked:. but you can keep your allbran! up top side we have froot loops lol! :food:
New zealand has always been a bucket list thing, would love to do the milford track.