Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: DesertPilot on January 15, 2022, 02:46:59 PM
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I have found that if I accidentally turn the hazard blinkers on while I'm riding, the engine loses power, refuses to rev above 2500 RPM without surging, and the ALARM! URGENT SERVICE light comes on. This continues even after I turn the blinkers off. But if I switch off the ignition and let things sit while I scratch my head wondering what just happened, everything goes back to normal.
This happened with both my V85TT's -- this one and the one that battled that SUV to a draw. Nothing I can find in the owners manual or service manual gives any clue why it should happen, how it could happen, or even that it should happen at all. Has anyone else noticed this? Is it some unexplained anomaly, peculiar only to my bikes, or is it some Guzzi Thing, designed to prevent lusty young Italians from tooling around with their hazard blinkers on?
I am mystified -- so mystified that I'm going to break my rule about cross-posting and post this message to Guzzitech as well, in hope that one of you wiser minds might provide me with some clue.. I apologize in advance for the cross-post.
BTW - In answer to the obvious question, I didn't have a chance to check the OBD codes. I have an adapter on order from Lonelec, and once it arrives, I may try to reproduce the problem.
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That's called character, Luigi throws those curves in there to keep you on your toes, no normal bike would do that LOL
Similar, if you have a V7III and turn the key on without starting it, then move it around the headlights turn on, I get it that the headlight should only turn on once the engine is running but it also needs to be On if the bike is moving without the motor running?
There's probably a reason for this weird behaviour but I doubt we will ever know.
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They do that so when we break down and push it home, we can see where we are going.
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I would check all the grounds.
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I would check all the grounds.
I'll give that a go. Thanks for the advice! I checked the connection to the cam position and O2 sensors and everything else I could see without pulling the tank and those were fine. That leaves the throttle position sensor, and I've seen 'refuses to rev and/or surges when you try' be a symptom of trouble there on other machines, so I may have a look at that later.
Right now, everything's gone back to being fine... except that this time the check engine light didn't reset. I imagine it will reset while I'm waiting for my OBD2 adapter to arrive -- yes, I know I should have one handy, but I never got around to ordering it :grin: -- but if it stays lit, the code should be informative. While I'm waiting, I'm also going to print out the circuit diagram and see if there's any plausible way the hazard blinker circuit could interfere with the engine electronics.
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I would check all the grounds.
That is a possibility OR overloading the 12 Volt supply to the dash causing it to pull down the Voltage.
One way to check that would be to unplug a couple of the flashers so the load is normal (2 bulbs) and then try activating the 4 way flasher switch.
Do you notice any dimming of the dash lights while it's happening?
You had the same symptoms on a different V85.
We might have to wait for more V85 owners to check it out.
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After my bike new V85TT died on the 2nd day, nothing about MG surprises me. Hang in there!!
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If I'm reading the circuit diagram right, the positive output lead from the hazard blinker switch goes straight to the instrument panel where Some Magic Happens (tah dah!) to send blinks to the rear signals. The instrument panel seems to perform a myriad of other functions, so I could just barely imagine a problem there affecting the engine electronics, but that 'just' is only 'barely'. The positive lead coming into the right-hand switch assembly is more interesting, for it also seems to branch out to feed power to the clutch switch, 'derating temperature sensor' (whatever that is), head temperature sensor, T-map sensor (MAP sensor?), motorized throttle valve, and demand sensor (I'm sure we've all had relationships like that).
While there doesn't seem any obvious way that closing the hazard blinker switch could affect anything upstream of it -- unless, as Madtownguzzi suggests, the 12 V supply is struggling to maintain 12 V, in which case I'd expect to see similar symptoms if I put other loads on the system by triggering the high means or honking the horn, or hmm, what if there was a partial short after the switch -- it might be significant that the MAP sensor is on that circuit, for I've had MAP sensor problems cause very similar symptoms on a Toyota SR5 pickup back in... well... you don't need to hear that story. Another more frightening possibility would be that the ECU -- which lurks like an evil warlord in its lair to the left of the diagram, plotting who knows what mischief in its cryptic silicon mind -- might be out of whack, but this possibility is too horrible to contemplate so I shall ignore it.
That's as far as I'm likely to get looking over the circuit diagram. The plan remains, 1) see if the check engine light resets, 2) see if I can reproduce the problem, 3) see if I can get an error code after the OBD2 adaptor cable that I really should have ordered a year ago but who ever gets around to stuff like that arrives, 4) make some brilliant decision, 5) enjoy a glass of wine. Since Steps 1 and 2 involve riding and Step 5 involves wine, this might not be too terrible a burden.
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Can you replicate the issue with the bike just idling, not while riding it.
Start up in garage, let it warm up, flip on the blinkers…do you see any drop in idle or other unusual indications?
How current is your battery?
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I just started mine on the lift and with the engine running at any revs, the hazards will flash when selected and turn off on command.
Seemingly no issues....(yet...) :rolleyes:
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They do that so when we break down and push it home, we can see where we are going.
I wouldn’t need the light.
I can find my way to the City Dump on a moonless night blindfolded..!
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I wonder if the function relies on the bars being well grounded, I was testing with a multimeter on my V7III one day using the bars as a ground reference. I was surprised I was getting intermittent results, it turned out the bars are rubber mounted and they were only grounded intermittently through the clutch cable.
Adding a short ground jumper across the rubber bushing fixed that, there were a couple of bolts underneath the left hand bar mounting that looked like they were intended for that.
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My wild a$$ guess:
There is an issue with a bulb or wire. When the hazards are flashing, the dashboard believes a bulb is burned out. So, it tosses up the 'urgent service' message. Add to that, when the dash has any 'urgent service' message, it is limiting the motor revs.
That is my wild guess, and it of course means nothing. :boozing:
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My wild a$$ guess:
There is an issue with a bulb or wire. When the hazards are flashing, the dashboard believes a bulb is burned out. So, it tosses up the 'urgent service' message. Add to that, when the dash has any 'urgent service' message, it is limiting the motor revs...
I've been wondering about that. It seems unlikely to be a bulb, because it doesn't throw a message when I use the same bulbs as turn signals or brake lights, but a bad wire in the hazard blinker circuit itself might explain the problem. I've also wondered if the ECU limits revs when it throws an 'Urgent Service', as you said. When this has happened, the engine also idled at 2000 RPM, as if some hypochondriac algorithm in the ECU decided, "Oh dear! Trouble! Better keep those revs at 2000 so we can limp home! Or roll home, as the case may be."
This raises two questions:
1) Does anyone here know if showing the 'Urgent Service' message also causes the ECU to limit revs?
2) Does anyone here know if the 'Urgent Service' message also causes the ECU to trigger the flashers, in which case it might have been the bike that did this, rather than me hitting the button by accident.
Additional note: The hazard button appears to be a push button -- quite possibly a membrane switch under a plastic guard -- that sends a brief signal to the instrument panel when pressed, rather than an actual switch that stays on after you push it. This seems to be an argument against the Current Leaking Through A Bad Wire From The Hazard Button Is Reducing Power To something Like The MAP Sensor hypothesis, since such a leak would only last a fraction of a second.
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2) Does anyone here know if the 'Urgent Service' message also causes the ECU to trigger the flashers, in which case it might have been the bike that did this, rather than me hitting the button by accident.
I think you are on to something here. As in, if say the throttle servo is acting up, they may turn on the hazards, and limit the throttle.
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I think you are on to something here. As in, if say the throttle servo is acting up, they may turn on the hazards, and limit the throttle.
Thanks for the hypothesis! It could well be consistent with the last incident, since I had just opened up some throttle to pass someone -- yes, the results were more exciting than I anticpcated -- and the 2-3 earlier incidents over the past 16 months might also all have happened when I fed in some throttle.
The only safe way to try to reproduce this is going to be to head back to the hills and fiddle. But I need a break from problem-solving, and I don't have the OBD2 adaptor yet, so I'm going to nip off to spend today hang gliding instead. Experiments tomorrow...
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Upon reading the Owners Manual carefully ("Read the Owners Manual? We can do that?"), I discovered the following informative entry on Page 25:
URGENT SERVICE ALARM
A serious failure is signalled by a fast flashing (two flashes per second) of the general
warning light and by the words URGENT SERVICE on the digital display. Contact an
Authorised Moto Guzzi Dealer as soon as possible. In these cases, the ECU activates
a safety procedure limiting vehicle performance in order to allow the rider to go to an
Authorised Moto Guzzi Dealer at a reduced speed. Depending on the type of failure,
performance can be limited in three ways: a) by reducing the maximum torque pro-
duced; b) by keeping the engine at idle speed but slightly accelerated (during this
operation, the throttle control is disabled); c) the engine rpm is steady at around 3000
rpm; Under these conditions the throttle control provides limited management of the
torque.
NOTE
WHEN THE "URGENT SERVICE" ERROR APPEARS ON THE DIGITAL DISPLAY,
THE FOUR ARROWS FLASH FOR 30 SEC. TO WARN THE VEHICLES BEHIND
OF A POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SITUATION UNTIL THE TURN INDICATOR IS
ACTIVATED TO ALLOW THE DRIVER TO PULL OVER.
My my! Who would even have imagined such a thing? That explains... much... :laugh: In particular, it suggests the root cause has been there all along, and the 2-3 previous riding glitches over the past 16 months were due to it rather then me hitting the hazard blinker by accident.
It also suggests a change in strategy. Rather than assume the problem has corrected itself and ride the bike to see if the Check Engine light will reset, I will hope that The Secret ["Nyah ha ha!" etc] remains hidden somewhere in the depths of the ECU, and wait for that adapter cable to arrive so I can check for an OBD code. In the meantime, I'll be forced to grit my teeth and... yes, life is cruel.. ride the Ducati...
This is getting interesting. I'll post more when I learn more.
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Great information.
I just wish Guzzi would list all the different faults that can trigger the alarm.
That would give as poor owners a fighting chance of troubleshooting.
With the distance between dealers the slow "Limp to a Dealer" mode is a sick joke IMHO.
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...With the distance between dealers the slow "Limp to a Dealer" mode is a sick joke IMHO.
Mine did reset when I turned the ignition (not just the engine cutoff) off and on, and I gather others have had the same experience.
Lonelec just shipped my adapter cable and KL-1 adapter (hurray!), so I'm hoping I'll be able to check the OBD codes this week. The theories so far as
1) Evil MAP sensor.
2) Throttle motor has decided to rebel against its overlords.
3) It's been using some oil, this has fouled a lambda sensor, and lambdas have taken advantage of this to slip past the guards and wreak havok.
4) Space aliens. I beleive that's OBD code P9909.
5) There will be no code, leaving me to wait, worry, and wonder...
I'm hoping it's not 5 because that would not be emotionally satisfying, but we shall see...
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Mine did reset when I turned the ignition (not just the engine cutoff) off and on, and I gather others have had the same experience.
Lonelec just shipped my adapter cable and KL-1 adapter (hurray!), so I'm hoping I'll be able to check the OBD codes this week. The theories so far as
1) Evil MAP sensor.
2) Throttle motor has decided to rebel against its overlords.
3) It's been using some oil, this has fouled a lambda sensor, and lambdas have taken advantage of this to slip past the guards and wreak havok.
4) Space aliens. I beleive that's OBD code P9909.
5) There will be no code, leaving me to wait, worry, and wonder...
I'm hoping it's not 5 because that would not be emotionally satisfying, but we shall see...
Could it be the oil pressure sensor/connector? Now that you know it is not an accidental bumping of the hazard switch, have you been able to put together the situation or establish a common pattern? I.E. bouncing off rev limiter, lugging, miss shift or over-rev on downshift? Or does it just randomly happen?
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Could it be the oil pressure sensor/connector? Now that you know it is not an accidental bumping of the hazard switch, have you been able to put together the situation or establish a common pattern? I.E. bouncing off rev limiter, lugging, miss shift or over-rev on downshift? Or does it just randomly happen?
It's only happened 2-3 times in 16 months, and the first 1-2 times were so insignificant I didn't even realize it might be a thing, so I'm relying on some very unreliable memories when I search for patterns. The only common thread *might* be 'rolling on lots of throttle uphill or at speed after an extended period at lower revs'. I could make up any number of scenarios for that one. Bouncing off the rev limiter seems unlikely, but I suppose it could have happened, so I'll take your advice and number this among them. Thanks!
My plan remains wait for that OBD cable adapter to arrive, try to read some codes, if I find some, assume that's the problem and go from there, and if I don't find any codes, head out to the same place it happened last Saturday and try to reproduce everything I did... with the OBD reader handy in case anything shows up. The start of next step of this investigation will be determined by the speed of international airmail from the fine fellows at Lonelec, who were quite quick about getting that order off.
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It's only happened 2-3 times in 16 months, and the first 1-2 times were so insignificant I didn't even realize it might be a thing, so I'm relying on some very unreliable memories when I search for patterns. The only common thread *might* be 'rolling on lots of throttle uphill or at speed after an extended period at lower revs'. I could make up any number of scenarios for that one. Bouncing off the rev limiter seems unlikely, but I suppose it could have happened, so I'll take your advice and number this among them. Thanks!
My plan remains wait for that OBD cable adapter to arrive, try to read some codes, if I find some, assume that's the problem and go from there, and if I don't find any codes, head out to the same place it happened last Saturday and try to reproduce everything I did... with the OBD reader handy in case anything shows up. The start of next step of this investigation will be determined by the speed of international airmail from the fine fellows at Lonelec, who were quite quick about getting that order off.
If it’s of any interest.
I have bumped the rev limiter a couple of times and it’s not thrown a code.
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It's only happened 2-3 times in 16 months, and the first 1-2 times were so insignificant I didn't even realize it might be a thing, so I'm relying on some very unreliable memories when I search for patterns. The only common thread *might* be 'rolling on lots of throttle uphill or at speed after an extended period at lower revs'. I could make up any number of scenarios for that one. Bouncing off the rev limiter seems unlikely, but I suppose it could have happened, so I'll take your advice and number this among them. Thanks!
My plan remains wait for that OBD cable adapter to arrive, try to read some codes, if I find some, assume that's the problem and go from there, and if I don't find any codes, head out to the same place it happened last Saturday and try to reproduce everything I did... with the OBD reader handy in case anything shows up. The start of next step of this investigation will be determined by the speed of international airmail from the fine fellows at Lonelec, who were quite quick about getting that order off.
Here's what I'm using. Most likely 1 day shipping for you.
https://www.obdinnovations.com/kkl-obd2-usb-cable-ftdi-ft232rl-chip-3-pin-adapter-cable/
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A failed Lambda did not trigger an URGENT SERVICE ALARM for me and I put 230 miles on it after the MIL light came on. The bike ran fine as far as I could tell no stumble or hiccups.
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Thanks for the info about the lamba sensor and rev limiter. I too have bumped into the latter without incident (hooligan me!) but every clue helps.
Poking around Guzzitech, I see a case of a Cal 1400 (which i gather has the same ECU) with a much more severe bit of similar-seeming behavior that threw a P0155 code and I gather they eventually traced back to the throttle position sensor. This might be something to think about when and if I finally have a chance to check for codes. I very much suspect the ECU has already reset, because that's the way our Robot Overlords work, and I'll be reduced to nipping around and waiting for the behavior to recur so I can whip out my OBD reader, plug it in, grin smugly, and say, "Ah ha! Take that, Robot Overlords! I have Thwarted Your Nefarious Plan!"
If all goes well, the cable adapter should show up this week so I can begin some Plan Thwarting.
As I'm sure you all can guess, this is still in that blissfully ignorant Hasn't Caused Any Serious Inconvenience Of Cost Any Significant Amount Of Money So It's Still Sorta Fun stage of engine diagnostics. Will the saga remain this benign? We shall see...
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Thanks for the info about the lamba sensor and rev limiter. I too have bumped into the latter without incident (hooligan me!) but every clue helps.
Poking around Guzzitech, I see a case of a Cal 1400 (which i gather has the same ECU) with a much more severe bit of similar-seeming behavior that threw a P0155 code and I gather they eventually traced back to the throttle position sensor. This might be something to think about when and if I finally have a chance to check for codes. I very much suspect the ECU has already reset, because that's the way our Robot Overlords work, and I'll be reduced to nipping around and waiting for the behavior to recur so I can whip out my OBD reader, plug it in, grin smugly, and say, "Ah ha! Take that, Robot Overlords! I have Thwarted Your Nefarious Plan!"
If all goes well, the cable adapter should show up this week so I can begin some Plan Thwarting.
As I'm sure you all can guess, this is still in that blissfully ignorant Hasn't Caused Any Serious Inconvenience Of Cost Any Significant Amount Of Money So It's Still Sorta Fun stage of engine diagnostics. Will the saga remain this benign? We shall see...
Part of me hopes that you don’t get it sorted.
I’m enjoying your stoic forbearance and witty turn of phrase... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Part of me hopes that you don’t get it sorted...
Have no fear! Three decades of English sports car ownership (doesn't everyone carry a valve spring compressor, spare valves, and head gasket set in the boot for quick roadside repairs?) allowed me to perfect my 'don't get it sorted' skills to a very high level. As I shall proceed to demonstrate... :grin:
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It took forever -- with a brief digression to determine that no, the Euro4 16 to 3 point adoptor won't work even though this is a Euro4 bike who'd have guessed but hey I can use it on the Ducati -- but I finally managed to lay my hands on a 16 to 6 pin OBD2 adapter for the 7SM ECU used by the V85TT.
Tah dah!
(https://i.ibb.co/mByRTLp/x26r60-IMG-20220128-150445.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mByRTLp)
Was there indeed an error code to reward all my efforts? The answer was yes.
(see note above about, "Tah dah!"')
(https://i.ibb.co/PCjBpVK/x20r60-IMG-20220128-150419.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PCjBpVK)
Examination of the OBD code reference guide on the Guzzitech forums suggests the problem is either 1) a bad connector to the throttle body actuator, 2) a bad wire somewhere, 3) a problem with the actuator itself ick, or 4) space aliens. The question becomes, how enthusiastic am I about the prospect of siphoning 40 lbs of gas out of the tank so I can pull the tank to locate the connectors, conclude I can't see anything wrong with them, but the tank back on, refill it, start the engine, and have the problem reappear (Yes, members of my tribe have a realistic attitude about how the world works). The answer may depend on just how hard the connectors are to inspect.
Have any of you had this OBD code, gotten it sorted, and/or had occasion to poke around the throttle body and figure out where the relevant connectors are hidden? If so... just where are they hidden, and is it possible to get at them without pulling too many things apart? I suppose I could look all this up in the service manual, but where's the sport in that? :grin:
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In front of the left side panel there is a connector on the throttle body. Google Mistras V85TT V-Twin boost dongle IIRC and you will see where it’s at. You can reach this without removing anything.
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Maybe look for chafed throttle wiring around the steering neck?
I tend to look at the last thing I touched or modified too. 😜
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Maybe look for chafed throttle wiring around the steering neck?
I tend to look at the last thing I touched or modified too. 😜
That was the first thing I checked, since I'd pushed some wires around when I installed the Barkbusters, making this a candidate toe 'last thing I touched or modified' as well.
In front of the left side panel there is a connector on the throttle body. Google Mistras V85TT V-Twin boost dongle IIRC and you will see where it’s at. You can reach this without removing anything.
Thanks! I pulled the side panel earlier, was unable to figure out which of the 3 or so connectors was the one I wanted, and the diagram in the service manual (see below) entirely failed to be informative and/or bear any real relation to the scene that confronted my eyes.
(https://i.ibb.co/wQHWRFH/Cryptic-Picture.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wQHWRFH)
This should be a big help!
UPDATE: ...or so I'd hoped. If I understand the Mistral instructions, they're plugging into the T-MAP sensor, not the throttle body connections. Whose location remains to be determined. I could go out to do the Stare At It In A Poorly Lit Garage Until You Go Mad With Frustration routine -- with which I've had much practice -- but I think I'll have glass of wine instead -- a routine one can never practice too often -- and puzzle this out tomorrow...
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A Tale Of Two Sockets
by Someone Other Than Charles Dickens
“It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had the Service Manual before us, we had the Interhnet before us, we were not going direct to Heaven, we were all going find out where the throttle body connector really was.”
The Service Manual entirely failed to be informative regarding the location of the throttle body connector, but a search through the internet finally turned up this Suggestive Diagram (No, not that kind of suggestive! Whatever were you thinking!) which seemed to indicate the presence of two sockets in the throttle body and gave some impression where they were located with respect to the airbox.
(https://i.ibb.co/M8tj7m7/diagram01-03-060-diagram.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M8tj7m7)
An ad on eBay for used throttle body confirmed that these hypothetical sockets did indeed exist.
(https://i.ibb.co/XszFhzh/diagram02-s-l1600-fig02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XszFhzh)
The next step was to find the ruddy things. For this purpose, I wanted my Small Mirror For Looking Around Corners. Predictably, this mirror had gone the way of all flesh -- or reflective glass, as the case may be -- and was lost, gone, vanished as ever Atlantis. But members of my tribe are not so easily thwarted! After the Necessary Grumbling, I located a Suitable Reflective Object (SRO) to take its place.
(https://i.ibb.co/XFM4LCB/fig00-x20r60-IMG-20220129-143554.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XFM4LCB)
Armed with the SRO, I set off in search of the sockets. The one at the bottom left of the throttle body is easy enough to find once you know where to look. It’s hidden under the left side panel, just behind the frame member.
(https://i.ibb.co/3NYbN4f/fig01-x20r60-IMG-20220129-144153.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3NYbN4f)
It is also entirely irrelevant, since it’s just an air pressure sensor because hey, you never know when you might want to know if there’s air pressure in case you were wondering if you were going to need that space suit. The throttle body connection is better hidden, but all you need to do to get at it is pull the tool tray, look at the Suggestive Diagram, and think, “Oh... yes... right. I knew that's where it was there all along, but hadn’t gotten around to looking.”
(https://i.ibb.co/mhxT8FK/fig02-x20r60-IMG-20220129-142313.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mhxT8FK)
The plug itself is rather strange, with a Spiffy Yellow Tab you have to pull back before you can remove it.
(https://i.ibb.co/XyfpkCx/fig03-x20r60-IMG-20220129-142328.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XyfpkCx)
After you’ve wiggled it free, given it a spritz of contact cleaner, then given it another spritz for luck, it’s the very devil to get back together. Time after time, I’d slide the thing in (No, that’s not what I meant! See note above about ‘whatever were you thinking!’) and slip the Spiffy Yellow Tab back in place, only to have the thing slide back out again. Aargh. Finally, with the help of the SRO, and after more Necessary Grumbling, I got the thing to lock in place
(https://i.ibb.co/1LDcmsK/fig04-x20r60-IMG-20220129-144201.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1LDcmsK)
Since then I’ve cleared the OBD codes, verified that the check engine went out, verified that it doesn’t go on again when I start the bike up, and retired to my chambers for glass of wine. Will this fix the problem? Who knows? But, “It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done, it is a far, far better rest that I go to (see note above about 'glass of wine') than I have ever known."
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Continuing the literature theme- I'm reading a book now and this saga reminds me of it. Martin Cruz Smith- 'The Siberian Dilemma'
A siberian îs walking across a frozen lake when it cracks below him- he falls in. If he climbs back out onto the ice, he'll die within a minute of the cold. If he stays in the water, he will last five minutes before he dies of hypothermia. What does he do?
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Continuing the literature theme- I'm reading a book now and this saga reminds me of it. Martin Cruz Smith- 'The Siberian Dilemma'
A siberian îs walking across a frozen lake when it cracks below him- he falls in. If he climbs back out onto the ice, he'll die within a minute of the cold. If he stays in the water, he will last five minutes before he dies of hypothermia. What does he do?
One imagines it depends on whether the ice is still under warranty :laugh:
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Continuing the literature theme- I'm reading a book now and this saga reminds me of it. Martin Cruz Smith- 'The Siberian Dilemma'
A siberian îs walking across a frozen lake when it cracks below him- he falls in. If he climbs back out onto the ice, he'll die within a minute of the cold. If he stays in the water, he will last five minutes before he dies of hypothermia. What does he do?
He dies. BTW I'm pretty sure you'll die of hypothermia a lot quicker in water than in the free air.
Ciao
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I would think so as well. I'm just relaying the story as I read it.
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Desert, great discription, beats tearing out hair whilst sobbing in the dark.
JRT, how did we segway from possible plug triumph to expiring Russians?
The thought processes on this site are amazing.......
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He dies. BTW I'm pretty sure you'll die of hypothermia a lot quicker in water than in the free air.
Ciao
The air is a lot colder than the water.
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The air is a lot colder than the water.
Do we know the wind chill factor? Perhaps he drowns and gets pulled under as his clothes get heavier and heavier.
Oh the Conundrum.
Speaking of Siberia...another good book to read...The Long Walk (was it fiction or real, also part of the debate).
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The air is a lot colder than the water.
Yea ok true, there is that but there is something about the ability of very cold sea water which may be below zero and it's greater ability to chill the body. Like a water temp of 20 deg C feels really cold where 20 deg C air temp feels comfortable. Not sure I'll need to research it. My brain has a couple of spare useless information memory cells vacant at the moment it seems:)
Ciao
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Yea ok true, there is that but there is something about the ability of very cold sea water which may be below zero and it's greater ability to chill the body. Like a water temp of 20 deg C feels really cold where 20 deg C air temp feels comfortable. Not sure I'll need to research it. My brain has a couple of spare useless information memory cells to vacant at the moment it seems:)
Ciao
I guess you could make the case that given air is less dense than water, heat will not flow as readily when on the land and therefore the body’s heating mechanism will be more effective in getting the core temperature up.
Case in point.
We have much more success in cooling engines with water than air.
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(https://i.ibb.co/xJ59kc6/7T.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xJ59kc6)
Hmmmmmmm
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The Plot Thickens
also not by Charles Dickens
I took the bike out for a test ride and it ran quite well for 30 minutes. Vroom. Then, as I exited a climbing right turn (see note above about 'Vroom'), the engine quit without warning. Bit of an eye-opener that was! I coasted to a stop on the side of the road, determined that the engine wouldn't restart, checked a few more times to determine that it really wouldn't restart, then got off the bike, pulled out my handy OBD2 scanner, and plugged it in to discover [cue ominous music] the Dread P060C Code...
(https://i.ibb.co/xjZPncP/x20r60a90-IMG-20220131-133818.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xjZPncP)
"Bugger," I thought to myself. "This may entirely fail to be fun." I sighed, put away the scanner, then climbed back aboard and gave the starter one more try because hey you never know, and...
...to my surprise, the engine fired right up. Members of my tribe may not always be noted for their wisdom, but we can recognize A Gift From The Motor Gods when we receive it, so I took this opportunity to nip back home while I had chance. The nipping process was successful and the bike now sits proudly in the garage awaiting a call to the shop, because I'm not going to try to diagnose something that's beginning to seem like [see note above about 'cue ominous music'] a problem with the ECU.
Sigh... Mondays...
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The Plot Thickens
also not by Charles Dickens
I took the bike out for a test ride and it ran quite well for 30 minutes. Vroom. Then, as I exited a climbing right turn (see note above about 'Vroom'), the engine quit without warning. Bit of an eye-opener that was! I coasted to a stop on the side of the road, determined that the engine wouldn't restart, checked a few more times to determine that it really wouldn't restart, then got off the bike, pulled out my handy OBD2 scanner, and plugged it in to discover [cue ominous music] the Dread P060C Code...
(https://i.ibb.co/xjZPncP/x20r60a90-IMG-20220131-133818.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xjZPncP)
"Bugger," I thought to myself. "This may entirely fail to be fun." I sighed, put away the scanner, then climbed back aboard and gave the starter one more try because hey you never know, and...
...to my surprise, the engine fired right up. Members of my tribe may not always be noted for their wisdom, but we can recognize A Gift From The Motor Gods when we receive it, so I took this opportunity to nip back home while I had chance. The nipping process was successful and the bike now sits proudly in the garage awaiting a call to the shop, because I'm not going to try to diagnose something that's beginning to seem like [see note above about 'cue ominous music'] a problem with the ECU.
Sigh... Mondays...
Jeez mate you have an endearing turn of phrase.
To be able to maintain a level of levity in the face of such angst is praiseworthy.
Good luck mate.
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The Plot Thickens
also not by Charles Dickens
I took the bike out for a test ride and it ran quite well for 30 minutes. Vroom. Then, as I exited a climbing right turn (see note above about 'Vroom'), the engine quit without warning. Bit of an eye-opener that was! I coasted to a stop on the side of the road, determined that the engine wouldn't restart, checked a few more times to determine that it really wouldn't restart, then got off the bike, pulled out my handy OBD2 scanner, and plugged it in to discover [cue ominous music] the Dread P060C Code...
(https://i.ibb.co/xjZPncP/x20r60a90-IMG-20220131-133818.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xjZPncP)
"Bugger," I thought to myself. "This may entirely fail to be fun." I sighed, put away the scanner, then climbed back aboard and gave the starter one more try because hey you never know, and...
...to my surprise, the engine fired right up. Members of my tribe may not always be noted for their wisdom, but we can recognize A Gift From The Motor Gods when we receive it, so I took this opportunity to nip back home while I had chance. The nipping process was successful and the bike now sits proudly in the garage awaiting a call to the shop, because I'm not going to try to diagnose something that's beginning to seem like [see note above about 'cue ominous music'] a problem with the ECU.
Sigh... Mondays...
This is the generic troubleshooting list for your code. A few things to check before arriving at the WCS. Worth a look.
Defective controller or programming error.
Bad controller fuse or power supply relay.
Open or shorted circuit or connectors in the CAN harness.
Insufficient control module ground
Ciao
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This is the generic troubleshooting list for your code. A few things to check before arriving at the WCS. Worth a look.
Defective controller or programming error.
Bad controller fuse or power supply relay.
Open or shorted circuit or connectors in the CAN harness.
Insufficient control module ground
Ciao
Thanks! It's that first possibility that gives me pause. In my experience, stories that begin with the phrase, "Defective controller or programming error," can sometimes end in tears :grin:
My USB adaptor finally arrived, so I could now, in principle, give Guzzidiag a go to see what insights it might provide. But not today. It's time to give the brain a rest... or give the rudimentary central nervous system a rest, for members of my species... and see what inspiration tomorrow might bring.
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Thanks! It's that first possibility that gives me pause. In my experience, stories that begin with the phrase, "Defective controller or programming error," can sometimes end in tears :grin:
My USB adaptor finally arrived, so I could now, in principle, give Guzzidiag a go to see what insights it might provide. But not today. It's time to give the brain a rest... or give the rudimentary central nervous system a rest, for members of my species... and see what inspiration tomorrow might bring.
Yea it's human nature to head towards the WCS but good troubleshooting practices suggest starting with the simple stuff first. good luck when you get back to it.
Ciao
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Does Guzzidiag work on the V85? I may have missed that memo...great if it does, you'll be able to read some of the faults there.
What is the equivalent of the 15M or 5M version for the V85, just for grins...if anyone knows.
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really wouldn't restart, then got off the bike, pulled out my handy OBD2 scanner, and plugged it in to discover [cue ominous music] the Dread P060C Code...
This got my attention, the fact that you can read codes without having to resort to a laptop that is so alien to any flat surface that the bike has.
I seem to be the only one that expects Guzzidiag to throw up errors in plain English, all my laptop does is show a cryptic code that I then have to look for on some elusive file.
So what code reader are you using, I have a generic code reader that refuses to display anything although I know it has at least one error on the ECU.
My old Apple laptop will only work with an old version of GuzziDiag, does the latest Guzziiag have a real Man Machine interface?
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Desert, great discription, beats tearing out hair whilst sobbing in the dark.
JRT, how did we segway from possible plug triumph to expiring Russians?
The thought processes on this site are amazing.......
I don't know...just talented, I guess. I assure you that those in charge of subtitles have been sacked....
Ok- I won't derail any more, I hope. Of the possibilities listed, I'd look for 'relay or ground' first. As it was suggested- KISS.
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This got my attention, the fact that you can read codes without having to resort to a laptop that is so alien to any flat surface that the bike has.
I seem to be the only one that expects Guzzidiag to throw up errors in plain English, all my laptop does is show a cryptic code that I then have to look for on some elusive file.
So what code reader are you using, I have a generic code reader that refuses to display anything although I know it has at least one error on the ECU.
My old Apple laptop will only work with an old version of GuzziDiag, does the latest Guzziiag have a real Man Machine interface?
It's an old garden-variety Inovna 3100 I had lying around the place. I'd have preferred a unit that played the appropriate tune for each code -- the Imperial March from 'Star Wars' for something ominous, like P060B (A/D converter), and 'Yummy Yummy Yummy' by the Ohio Express for something like P0110 (Air Temperature Sensor) that was merely annoying -- but we must make do with what we have.
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I watched the U-tube review of the 3100, it looks really comprehensive, all I can say is why would you want to use a laptop that gives you less information.
It would be good to see a review of other types particularly with Guzzi in mind.
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This got my attention, the fact that you can read codes without having to resort to a laptop that is so alien to any flat surface that the bike has.
I seem to be the only one that expects Guzzidiag to throw up errors in plain English, all my laptop does is show a cryptic code that I then have to look for on some elusive file.
So what code reader are you using, I have a generic code reader that refuses to display anything although I know it has at least one error on the ECU.
My old Apple laptop will only work with an old version of GuzziDiag, does the latest Guzziiag have a real Man Machine interface?
Why don't you just download a free OBD app Roy.
Ciao
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Does Guzzidiag work on the V85? I may have missed that memo...great if it does, you'll be able to read some of the faults there.
What is the equivalent of the 15M or 5M version for the V85, just for grins...if anyone knows.
Yes it works with the 7SM ECU..(V85).
You will need the appropriate plug, but they are easily obtainable.
You won’t be able to adjust the CO trim though.
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Why don't you just download a free OBD app Roy.
Ciao
PM sent.
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I watched the U-tube review of the 3100, it looks really comprehensive, all I can say is why would you want to use a laptop that gives you less information.
It would be good to see a review of other types particularly with Guzzi in mind.
The nice thing about a small portable scanner like the 3100 -- if you ignore its stubborn refusal to play music -- is that you can toss in the topcase to check for codes that might otherwise have surreptitiously vanished by the time you get home. Yes, one could pack along a laptop instead, with the intention of plugging it in and booting it up by the side of the road while fiddling with wires and trying not to drop it oops crunch, but for some strange reason that I'm entirely at a loss to explain, this concept has failed to thrill me :grin:
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I finally was able to schedule a visit to the shop and take the bike in so they could look at the bike under warranty. They gave Piaggio a call and were advised to update the ECU software. They did so, I rode it home without any adventures, and it now sits smugly (it is, after all, a Guzzi :grin:) in the garage waiting until I have an opportunity to take it out on a reasoanably lengthy test ride.
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I guess you could make the case that given air is less dense than water, heat will not flow as readily when on the land and therefore the body’s heating mechanism will be more effective in getting the core temperature up.
Case in point.
We have much more success in cooling engines with water than air.
this
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UPDATED UPDATE: I took the V85 out on a test ride over the same roads where it had suffered its glitches, and new glitches were conspicuous by their absence, so evidence suggests that it's fixed. Time for a glass of wine!