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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Huzo on April 15, 2022, 09:35:40 AM
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I have a set of Caruso timing gears that I fitted to my Norge.
Here is an image
(https://i.ibb.co/2hg1kpn/2-F905-CCF-9-E77-4-DB6-B44-F-DED8-AEDC4120.png) (https://ibb.co/2hg1kpn)
Question is..
I consider the lash between the crank and cam gears to be absolute minimum. What is the consensus regarding this lash ?
Will it increase or decrease when hot ? My educated guess is that the cases will expand when at operating temp, resulting in them “growing apart” a very small amount, thus increasing the lash. But that is only a guess, does anyone have an educated opinion ?
I would like to hear from Tusayan as well as anyone else.
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Won't everything expand at the same rate and the lash will remain constant?
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Won't everything expand at the same rate and the lash will remain constant?
I think the coefficient of expansion is greater for the aluminium. Given that there is more mass, I think the crankcase will get “taller”, thus increasing the lash.
On my first assembly, I started the bike and it just sounded......”tight”.
The thought of the two shafts closing up with no clearance was a concern, so I temporarily threw the chain back in.
I considered rigging up a jig to spin them under load for a time to bed them in before refitting.
Unsure as yet... :popcorn:
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Hmmm, the only thing I can compare it to are the gear driven cams on my Vfr750, although they are slash cut gears. Four cams and two connecting gears were in aluminium casings and went on forever.
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Hi Peter...what difference in sound or performance are you noticing with these new gears? When you say tight, do you mean the bike feels restricted in performance, or just tighter as in you're breaking in a new engine?
Cheers
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Have you discussed this with Mr. Caruso?
Paul B.
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Hi Peter...what difference in sound or performance are you noticing with these new gears? When you say tight, do you mean the bike feels restricted in performance, or just tighter as in you're breaking in a new engine?
Cheers
Because I knew there is zero lash in the pair and mindful of the torture that I would be inflicting if they got any tighter, I did not know if the sound was normal.
I was expecting a whirring sound, but this was more of a subdued scream. I re installed the chain, out of an abundance of caution.
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Have you discussed this with Mr. Caruso?
Paul B.
Not yet.
But I think I will.
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I have a set of Caruso timing gears that I fitted to my Norge.
Here is an image
(https://i.ibb.co/2hg1kpn/2-F905-CCF-9-E77-4-DB6-B44-F-DED8-AEDC4120.png) (https://ibb.co/2hg1kpn)
Question is..
I consider the lash between the crank and cam gears to be absolute minimum. What is the consensus regarding this lash ?
Will it increase or decrease when hot ? My educated guess is that the cases will expand when at operating temp, resulting in them “growing apart” a very small amount, thus increasing the lash. But that is only a guess, does anyone have an educated opinion ?
I would like to hear from Tusayan as well as anyone else.
I have these fitted to a few engines. The tooth clearance will increase as the engine cases get to operating temp.
Ciao
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I have these fitted to a few engines. The tooth clearance will increase as the engine cases get to operating temp.
Ciao
Ok Phil, that’s good news.
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precisely the reason there is a determined clearance between gear tip and root of its mate.
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I just got an e mail back from Mr Caruso.
He assures me that as the engine warms, the clearance (as expected) will grow.
Also he told me that before he ships a gear set out, he fits them to an engine he has on hand and checks for correctness.
He further states that the shaft centres on these big blocks are known to be accurately machined.
While in Italy, I will get a new oil pump for the Norge and re install the gears if they check out ok.
Thanks all.
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'60s BMW established cold timing gear lash at 0.002".
That leaves room for an 0.001" oil film.
I wouldn't want to run any gear set at zero clearance.
That's inviting galling of tooth surfaces.
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Because I knew there is zero lash in the pair and mindful of the torture that I would be inflicting if they got any tighter, I did not know if the sound was normal.
I was expecting a whirring sound, but this was more of a subdued scream. I re installed the chain, out of an abundance of caution.
:thumb:
Wise to halt at zero clearance,
Keep us updated
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:thumb:
Wise to halt at zero clearance,
Keep us updated
Guissepe Caruso went on to point this out.
Although I don’t think it applies in this case, it is possible to attempt to discern the lash between the crank and cam gear pairing and find none.
This can be because there is none.
Or
The reluctance for the cam gear to turn by hand pressure due to the frictional drag and the loading of the rockers against the lobes. It will feel like the gears have zero lash and are solidly meshing, when in fact they are not.
The go is, to fit them on their shafts and leave the driving pin out of the camwheel and see if any lash exists.
I’m fitting a new oil pump when I get back from Italy with the Norge and I’ll investigate it then.
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precisely the reason there is a determined clearance between gear tip and root of its mate.
I think it’s prudent to allow for the fact that zero lash can also occur when the teeth are “wedging” into the corresponding valley.
Any further closing up of the clearance beyond this condition, doesn’t bear contemplating.
I’m encouraged to hear that the shafts travel apart as the engine warms, but I’d like to be able to discern some lash when stone motherless cold.
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While working on golf course equipment years ago the we had an assortment of various diameter lead wires we would check bearing and gear clearances with. Perhaps a machine shop supply outfit near you would have some.
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Wouldn't Plastigage pretty much do the same thing?
kk
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Wouldn't Plastigage pretty much do the same thing?
kk
Plastigauge might work on tooth the interface but would be tough to mic accurately once flattened with a slight curve. The lead wires were very small dia. and could check interface and fatter ones used on root clearance.
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I agree, not what it is made for. Maybe in a pinch it might give ball park idea. Also gear drive conversions are known to be noisy.
kk
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Did Mr. Caruso mention if the gears tend to quiet down after they are run in for a while?
Rick.
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Huzo,
I have this exact same set of gears in my Breva right now and can attest to your concern about the sound. For me it was a pleasant change from the tappity-tap-tap cacophony emanating from the left side as my original chain tensioner was complete junk. The sound was replaced by a substantially quieter whirr of the straight cut gears. If I recall you have already upgraded your tensioner and I presume your motor didn't suffer from the calamity of noise that mine had.
In my humble opinion, as long as you can smoothly turn the motor over by hand with the plugs out then I trust the quality of Joe Caruso's workmanship.
I have several thousand miles on mine since installed and all is well.
Skippy
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Did Mr. Caruso mention if the gears tend to quiet down after they are run in for a while?
Rick.
I didn’t discuss that aspect with him, but did with Pete Roper.
Pete said that they do become quieter after a bedding in period. He told me that he performed a modification to allow more pooling of oil around the gear train, further dampening the sound.
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Huzo,
I have this exact same set of gears in my Breva right now and can attest to your concern about the sound. For me it was a pleasant change from the tappity-tap-tap cacophony emanating from the left side as my original chain tensioner was complete junk. The sound was replaced by a substantially quieter whirr of the straight cut gears. If I recall you have already upgraded your tensioner and I presume your motor didn't suffer from the calamity of noise that mine had.
In my humble opinion, as long as you can smoothly turn the motor over by hand with the plugs out then I trust the quality of Joe Caruso's workmanship.
I have several thousand miles on mine since installed and all is well.
Skippy
Yes I have done the tensioner work on mine and it is now silent.
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Huzo,
I have this exact same set of gears in my Breva right now and can attest to your concern about the sound. For me it was a pleasant change from the tappity-tap-tap cacophony emanating from the left side as my original chain tensioner was complete junk. The sound was replaced by a substantially quieter whirr of the straight cut gears. If I recall you have already upgraded your tensioner and I presume your motor didn't suffer from the calamity of noise that mine had.
In my humble opinion, as long as you can smoothly turn the motor over by hand with the plugs out then I trust the quality of Joe Caruso's workmanship.
I have several thousand miles on mine since installed and all is well.
Skippy
Seconded.
My '97 Sport still had the stock chain tensioner, pretty weak. I installed Joe's gears and was pleasantly surprised to discover the bike a good deal quieter than it was before- it always had a ton of reflected noise in the fairing. The gears are nearly silent, you can hear the whirring if you listen for it but it's not apparent otherwise.
I left the starboard tensioner bolt hole empty to facilitate oil mist on the gears from crankcase pumping.
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Guissepe Caruso went on to point this out.
Although I don’t think it applies in this case, it is possible to attempt to discern the lash between the crank and cam gear pairing and find none.
This can be because there is none.
Or
The reluctance for the cam gear to turn by hand pressure due to the frictional drag and the loading of the rockers against the lobes. It will feel like the gears have zero lash and are solidly meshing, when in fact they are not.
The go is, to fit them on their shafts and leave the driving pin out of the camwheel and see if any lash exists.
I’m fitting a new oil pump when I get back from Italy with the Norge and I’ll investigate it then.
And so the plot thickens!
Perhaps a more appropriate title would be , how do you measure lash ?
Assumption got answers other than one you wanted.
Personally, I fit gears for (permanent) accurate valve timing as much as for reduced reciprocating mass, usually with a new camshaft.
So, rockers off, dial gauges on pushrods, degree wheel on crank, fit pin in appropriate hole on predrilled cam gear.
Original loopy camshaft gears came predrilled like this, I made a jig 40 years ago to do same, 5 holes not one, surprising that these gears are not drilled, perhaps because he originally intended them for Daytona engines which have vernier adjustment at camshaft/pulley. Carcano designed pushrod motor was always intended to have the adjustment at cam gear, original workshop manual shows you how to fit and set up gears.
My 1967 V700 on factory painted marks was 1 degree advanced from Carcano’s figures, I guess every motor was timed by hand then, marks painted by tradesman.
I still do it that way
Without rockers, lash is easily felt and valve timing accurately adjusted (+ or - 1 degree is pretty good for a factory build imho, interesting how your Norge with a few miles and aftermarket gears times up.
Peak lift angle and overlap in and ex at tdc tell you everything, very light (carb) valve springs installed for final check.
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And so the plot thickens!
Perhaps a more appropriate title would be , how do you measure lash ?
Assumption got answers other than one you wanted.
Personally, I fit gears for (permanent) accurate valve timing as much as for reduced reciprocating mass, usually with a new camshaft.
So, rockers off, dial gauges on pushrods, degree wheel on crank, fit pin in appropriate hole on predrilled cam gear.
Original loopy camshaft gears came predrilled like this, I made a jig 40 years ago to do same, 5 holes not one, surprising that these gears are not drilled, perhaps because he originally intended them for Daytona engines which have vernier adjustment at camshaft/pulley. Carcano designed pushrod motor was always intended to have the adjustment at cam gear, original workshop manual shows you how to fit and set up gears.
My 1967 V700 on factory painted marks was 1 degree advanced from Carcano’s figures, I guess every motor was timed by hand then, marks painted by tradesman.
I still do it that way
Without rockers, lash is easily felt and valve timing accurately adjusted (+ or - 1 degree is pretty good for a factory build imho, interesting how your Norge with a few miles and aftermarket gears times up.
Peak lift angle and overlap in and ex at tdc tell you everything, very light (carb) valve springs installed for final check.
Ok mate, I will bear all that in mind as well.
Suffice to say, if I’d installed the gears and felt even a couple of thou’ lash, I would have buttoned it up and off into the sunset.
I have a background in machining and I know what a couple of thou feels like and I could not discern any.
But that may be for the reasons mentioned.
I will forensically check it out when I install the new oil pump.
Thanks for your valued advice mate... :thumb:
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Journeyman Tool & Die maker here and I couldn't feel 0.002" lash in the gears when I set up the alternator drive on my Ural. It required a dial indicator on a tooth face for me to get true proof of movement.
Of course I was the other side of 68 then. Might make a difference?
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Journeyman Tool & Die maker here and I couldn't feel 0.002" lash in the gears when I set up the alternator drive on my Ural. It required a dial indicator on a tooth face for me to get true proof of movement.
Of course I was the other side of 68 then. Might make a difference?
I’ve got a nice dial gauge, I could clock it up when the time comes.
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So aside from the superb craftmanship of the gears and the change of sound, are you expecting any change in performance (torque or acceleration or top end or fuel consumption or other typical KPI)? Just curious as to why the route of changing to the gears vs. replacing with the original setup, other than it can be done, and it's cool to do so.
Thanks!
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So aside from the superb craftmanship of the gears and the change of sound, are you expecting any change in performance (torque or acceleration or top end or fuel consumption or other typical KPI)? Just curious as to why the route of changing to the gears vs. replacing with the original setup, other than it can be done, and it's cool to do so.
Thanks!
Elegance. It could be argued, and indeed succinctly that installing gears is actually going back to the original setup.
Ciao
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Elegance. It could be argued, and indeed succinctly that installing gears is actually going back to the original setup.
Ciao
Also, it makes me feel good.
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So aside from the superb craftmanship of the gears and the change of sound, are you expecting any change in performance (torque or acceleration or top end or fuel consumption or other typical KPI)? Just curious as to why the route of changing to the gears vs. replacing with the original setup, other than it can be done, and it's cool to do so.
Thanks!
I do like the notion of not having a lot of load on the oil pump bearings.
That new tensioner really does apply a lot of force to them.
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Whenever I put gears in a Guzzi, seems like it makes better throttle response. I’ll bet you may notice that, especially with those gears.
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Whenever I put gears in a Guzzi, seems like it makes better throttle response. I’ll bet you may notice that, especially with those gears.
I’ll look forward to that John.
Thanks.
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I actually considered mounting them on a pair of shafts and spin them under light load submersed in oil, if my initial diagnosis comes up as too tight.
I will not start the bike again unless there is some lash present when cold.
It matters not to me how much the clearance opens up when hot, I just will not do it.
Also.
I’m open to some educating on the topic of getting the lash perfect so as to ensure completely accurate valve timing.
I figure that if there is .002” lash instead of say .004”, that’s a 2 thou error.
Now a 2 thou’ error in the rotation of the cam gear over say a 50 mm radius, will translate to a 0.0004” difference in the rotation of a cam lobe of 10 mm radius.
The numbers may not be accurate, but you can see how the error diminishes.
How much earlier/later will the valve begin to open or close with the lobe arriving half a thou’ early or late ?
I would suggest that such a tolerance would be similar to having your valve clearance one thou’ out and nobody would wet their pants over that.
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/2 BMW did fine with timing gears. They did have a tube that pumped oil directly at the junction between the two timing gears.
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/2 BMW did fine with timing gears. They did have a tube that pumped oil directly at the junction between the two timing gears.
Yeah.
Pete Roper told me that he blanked off one of the drain holes (I think), to allow the oil to pool around the gear train.
Surely cannot be a bad thing...?
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I actually considered mounting them on a pair of shafts and spin them under light load submersed in oil, if my initial diagnosis comes up as too tight.
I will not start the bike again unless there is some lash present when cold.
It matters not to me how much the clearance opens up when hot, I just will not do it.
Also.
I’m open to some educating on the topic of getting the lash perfect so as to ensure completely accurate valve timing.
I figure that if there is .002” lash instead of say .004”, that’s a 2 thou error.
Now a 2 thou’ error in the rotation of the cam gear over say a 50 mm radius, will translate to a 0.0004” difference in the rotation of a cam lobe of 10 mm radius.
The numbers may not be accurate, but you can see how the error diminishes.
How much earlier/later will the valve begin to open or close with the lobe arriving half a thou’ early or late ?
I would suggest that such a tolerance would be similar to having your valve clearance one thou’ out and nobody would wet their pants over that.
Yes
You are barking up a very tall tree with very little fruit
The low hanging stuff, as I said, is to accurately dial in your camshaft(or if it proves to be worn or easily bettered, replaced with suitable grind)
Theoretically it will retard itself as gear faces wear (and lash increases) but never like a worn chain and academic to all intents and purposes.
For knowledge
1/ note valve timing as is with chain, correct with gears (use degree wheel, dial gauges and drill- but no money). Feel the difference
2/ Read Tuning for Speed by Phil Irving, he explains valve timing (procedure and effect) far more eloquently than I ever could, actually worth reading just for his unambiguous perfect English and to get thinking about how bad modern Australian English has become.
He was educated in Melbourne 100 odd years ago, so much has been lost
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Hmmm, the only thing I can compare it to are the gear driven cams on my Vfr750, although they are slash cut gears. Four cams and two connecting gears were in aluminium casings and went on forever.
VFR 750 gears were straight cut with spring loaded backlash gears incorporated. In RC30 WSB race engines the spring loaded backlash gears were left off to save weight and friction.
Ciao
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I actually considered mounting them on a pair of shafts and spin them under light load submersed in oil, if my initial diagnosis comes up as too tight.
I will not start the bike again unless there is some lash present when cold.
It matters not to me how much the clearance opens up when hot, I just will not do it.
Also.
I’m open to some educating on the topic of getting the lash perfect so as to ensure completely accurate valve timing.
I figure that if there is .002” lash instead of say .004”, that’s a 2 thou error.
Now a 2 thou’ error in the rotation of the cam gear over say a 50 mm radius, will translate to a 0.0004” difference in the rotation of a cam lobe of 10 mm radius.
The numbers may not be accurate, but you can see how the error diminishes.
How much earlier/later will the valve begin to open or close with the lobe arriving half a thou’ early or late ?
I would suggest that such a tolerance would be similar to having your valve clearance one thou’ out and nobody would wet their pants over that.
Way too much overthinking here Huzo. Even with zero backlash cold thats fine it will get some as the engine warms. The crank front bearing clearance can be up to .060mm clearance and the same for the front cam journal so even tight the crank and cam journal will move to allow for the lack of clearance. If the gears fit when cold then they'll be fine, if they won't fit then you have an issue. Don't overthink it. It's like Ducati main bearing end float it set to -.1-.15mm, yes that means that when the engines cold there is compressive load on the crank main bearings from the crankcases. When you torque up the vertically split cases the cases stretch .1-.15mm and preload the crank mains. When the cases warm up with the engine running the preload reduces to near zero. Want to think about that every time you start your Ducati? Of course not. Same with the gears, if they fit cold then they are ok.
Ciao
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Way too much overthinking here Huzo. Even with zero backlash cold thats fine it will get some as the engine warms. The crank front bearing clearance can be up to .060mm clearance and the same for the front cam journal so even tight the crank and cam journal will move to allow for the lack of clearance. If the gears fit when cold then they'll be fine, if they won't fit then you have an issue. Don't overthink it. It's like Ducati main bearing end float it set to -.1-.15mm, yes that means that when the engines cold there is compressive load on the crank main bearings from the crankcases. When you torque up the vertically split cases the cases stretch .1-.15mm and preload the crank mains. When the cases warm up with the engine running the preload reduces to near zero. Want to think about that every time you start your Ducati? Of course not. Same with the gears, if they fit cold then they are ok.
Ciao
Ok Phil.
I am heavily tempted (and probably will) go with yours and others counsel. I did realise that I was probably over thinking it, but I’m a bit of a bugger for that....
Pete Roper has sourced a new pump for me and it’s en route. When I install it, I will properly check the gear train out.
I have had them in once and run the engine for a short while.
While on the topic of all this, what is the correct way to treat a loctited nut prior to removal ?
Is it an application of heat and if so how much ?
I do have a rattle gun to facilitate removal, but I’d like to know what the go is...
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I actually considered mounting them on a pair of shafts and spin them under light load submersed in oil, if my initial diagnosis comes up as too tight.
I will not start the bike again unless there is some lash present when cold.
It matters not to me how much the clearance opens up when hot, I just will not do.
Way too much overthinking here Huzo. Even with zero backlash cold thats fine it will get some as the engine warms. The crank front bearing clearance can be up to .060mm clearance and the same for the front cam journal so even tight the crank and cam journal will move to allow for the lack of clearance. If the gears fit when cold then they'll be fine, if they won't fit then you have an issue.
Ciao
A perfect description of Huzo’s dilemma, I think
Oil film areas around front crank and camshaft are non existent cold but not actually seized solid.
For taxi that shares drivers and never gets cold, maybe
Air cooled bike that stops overnight ?
Cold dry bearings might scream
Canadians use electric block heater, that would solve any cold clearance issue.
Hassle to carry around and free camping out of question Imho
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Ok Phil.
I am heavily tempted (and probably will) go with yours and others counsel. I did realise that I was probably over thinking it, but I’m a bit of a bugger for that....
Pete Roper has sourced a new pump for me and it’s en route. When I install it, I will properly check the gear train out.
I have had them in once and run the engine for a short while.
While on the topic of all this, what is the correct way to treat a loctited nut prior to removal ?
Is it an application of heat and if so how much ?
I do have a rattle gun to facilitate removal, but I’d like to know what the go is...
Red Loctite on the oil pump nut, heat. Around 220 deg C to get it to release. I have an infrared thermometer I use for this purpose. Useful on alloy parts like axle/caliper support brackets where overheating is something you want to avoid. Hit it with a propane burner for a short sharp application then rattle it off if you like but manual wrenching will work.
Ciao
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Red Loctite on the oil pump nut, heat. Around 220 deg C to get it to release. I have an infrared thermometer I use for this purpose. Useful on alloy parts like axle/caliper support brackets where overheating is something you want to avoid. Hit it with a propane burner for a short sharp application then rattle it off if you like but manual wrenching will work.
Ciao
Ok.
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Pete Roper has sourced a new pump for me and it’s en route. When I install it, I will properly check the gear train out.
I have had them in once and run the engine for a short while
Did that solve the issue?
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I think the coefficient of expansion is greater for the aluminium. Given that there is more mass, I think the crankcase will get “taller”, thus increasing the lash.
On my first assembly, I started the bike and it just sounded......”tight”.
The thought of the two shafts closing up with no clearance was a concern, so I temporarily threw the chain back in.
I considered rigging up a jig to spin them under load for a time to bed them in before refitting.
Unsure as yet... :popcorn:
A thought Huzo. Did you pre oil the timing chest before the first start? I add 3-400ml of oil through the ignition pickup hole before the first start after the cover is installed and also apply a small amount of grease by brush to each gear tooth on assembly.
Ciao
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A thought Huzo. Did you pre oil the timing chest before the first start? I add 3-400ml of oil through the ignition pickup hole before the first start after the cover is installed and also apply a small amount of grease by brush to each gear tooth on assembly.
Ciao
Sussed, excellent result
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I’m a bit embarrassed to admit it, but you all deserve the truth.
I did apply a little grease on the teeth, thinking it would deposit around after startup.
I should have done better.
However when I cracked open the timing chest to re install the chain, the gears were well soaked in oil.
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Did that solve the issue?
I have not received the pump yet.
In any case, the Norge is on the water somewhere between Singapore and England.
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I have not received the pump yet.
In any case, the Norge is on the water somewhere between Singapore and England.
Where is it landing Huzo?
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(https://i.ibb.co/NmK0zrK/A6-C98-CE0-A693-4812-B62-B-359-AF4971-BF9.png) (https://ibb.co/NmK0zrK)
Where is it landing Huzo?
Faggs rd Feltham.
Walking distance from Heathrow.
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Hoped it was Liverpool, you could have stayed a day or two to recuperate. Never mind, there's always another day 👍
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Hoped it was Liverpool, you could have stayed a day or two to recuperate. Never mind, there's always another day 👍
So I’m not allowed to visit ?
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So I’m not allowed to visit ?
Of course you are, plenty of room. 👍
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Of course you are, plenty of room. 👍
Heat up the bangers and mash.
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I’m a bit embarrassed to admit it, but you all deserve the truth.
I did apply a little grease on the teeth, thinking it would deposit around after startup.
I should have done better.
However when I cracked open the timing chest to re install the chain, the gears were well soaked in oil.
Don’t knock yourself out, I doubt the grease did any harm, as you say gears pick up oil pretty quick
Lash mystery may take a while ?
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So aside from the superb craftmanship of the gears and the change of sound, are you expecting any change in performance (torque or acceleration or top end or fuel consumption or other typical KPI)? Just curious as to why the route of changing to the gears vs. replacing with the original setup, other than it can be done, and it's cool to do so.
Thanks!
Nah mate, just an indulgence pretty much.
However..
I do like the notion of a perceived simpler arrangement and I love the idea that there is no load on the oil pump due to chain tension.
I acknowledge the fact that the bike has done 200,000 km with the standard setup though. I will run the gears for an appropriate time to allow them to settle in, but they’ll need to quieten down a bit….(and probably will).
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Nah mate, just an indulgence pretty much.
However..
I do like the notion of a perceived simpler arrangement and I love the idea that there is no load on the oil pump due to chain tension.
I acknowledge the fact that the bike has done 200,000 km with the standard setup though. I will run the gears for an appropriate time to allow them to settle in, but they’ll need to quieten down a bit….(and probably will).
Does your engine breathe through the cam gear Huzo? Does it have the breather hose running off the l/h side of the timing chain cover?
Ciao
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Does your engine breathe through the cam gear Huzo? Does it have the breather hose running off the l/h side of the timing chain cover?
Ciao
Yes and yes Phil.
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Elegance. It could be argued, and indeed succinctly that installing gears is actually going back to the original setup.
Ciao
That's a good reason all by itself. Lovely piece of work.
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Yes and yes Phil.
Ok so therefore your bike does not retain any oil at all in the fwd cam drive area, it relies solely on oil mist to lubricate the gears. Probably why your bike has slightly more gear noise than the earlier bikes.
Ciao
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Ok so therefore your bike does not retain any oil at all in the fwd cam drive area, it relies solely on oil mist to lubricate the gears. Probably why your bike has slightly more gear noise than the earlier bikes.
Ciao
Hmmmm
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I’ve thought about drilling an oil pressure hole into the vertical oil pressure galley to squirt at the junction where the gears mesh but never have done it. I’d tend to go small so as to not affect the pressure upstream. Maybe.0025 to start with. Just speculation. It would be fun to make a clear front cover or a window
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I’ve thought about drilling an oil pressure hole into the vertical oil pressure galley to squirt at the junction where the gears mesh but never have done it. I’d tend to go small so as to not affect the pressure upstream. Maybe.0025 to start with. Just speculation. It would be fun to make a clear front cover or a window
I'd like to see your 0.0025 inch drill!
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I’ve thought about drilling an oil pressure hole into the vertical oil pressure galley to squirt at the junction where the gears mesh but never have done it. I’d tend to go small so as to not affect the pressure upstream. Maybe.0025 to start with. Just speculation. It would be fun to make a clear front cover or a window
Just not necessary I don't think John. The std chain and tensioner are obviously lubricated quite effectively by the oil mist and the loading on the gear teeth on a geared system wont be that high. At the end of the day it's only driving the camshaft not the back wheel and Joes gears are pretty beefy. After seeing the way the Norge engine front timing case is configured I think the blocking off and raising the oil drain holes on the earlier engines to elevate the height of the trapped oil some people do is a pointless exercise and only serves to waste energy by additional drag and churn oil which elevates it's temperature and can lead to frothing.
A two and a half thou oil delivery hole isn't a practical size in an engine oil delivery system I dont think. I've seen oil pump bodies shed larger particles than that from contact with the tips of the gear teeth. It would be interesting to get a look at whats happening in there during running. On youtube there are various videos of car engine rocker covers and sumps that have been made see through. Interesting what goes on in there.
Ciao
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I'd like to see your 0.0025 inch drill!
Bloody hard to sharpen :laugh:
Ciao
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Too many zeros…. :grin:
I think I used a .030” on a failed small block rear main thrust flange with good results.
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I did have them in for a VERY short period.
The last time I ran it, I decided they were coming out. From that decision to lifting off the timing chest cover, was about 20 minutes.
The gears had a goodly coating of oil all over them and that was a hot engine with 20 minutes drain time.
The inspection hole is an idea I will ponder.
It would not be too hard to have a threaded plug suitably lock wired and start the engine with the alternator belt cover removed and peer in while it’s running.
Would make a nice little video.
Hmmmm…. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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It would be fun to make a clear front cover or a window
Actually much easier than that, if you have early mechanical tacho model or can borrow timing chest cover from one, simply run without tacho drive installed
Good thrash for 30 mins, all the fun you could imagine.
But this is maddest thread drift ever, first post problem was not oil related, oil won’t create lash
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Actually much easier than that, if you have early mechanical tacho model or can borrow timing chest cover from one, simply run without tacho drive installed
Good thrash for 30 mins, all the fun you could imagine.
But this is maddest thread drift ever, first post problem was not oil related, oil won’t create lash
No drift at all just following the logical path. The first post was related to tooth backlash because of perceived gear noise and gear noise can be somewhat related to the conditions the gears operate in including the oil and how they are lubricated. I would expect a gear drive system lubricated by oil mist to be somewhat noisier than the same system lubricated by an oil bath. Threads like this lead to interesting learnings for some of us. So now I know the later BB engines breath through the cam gear and camshaft and don't rely to some extent on the timing chain and oil pump sprocket picking up oil from a vestigial sump in the timing chest.
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I don’t mind where it drifts to.
Talked to Pete about it today, he holds no fears whatsoever.
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No drift at all just following the logical path. The first post was related to tooth backlash because of perceived gear noise and gear noise can be somewhat related to the conditions the gears operate in including the oil and how they are lubricated. I would expect a gear drive system lubricated by oil mist to be somewhat noisier than the same system lubricated by an oil bath. Threads like this lead to interesting learnings for some of us. So now I know the later BB engines breath through the cam gear and camshaft and don't rely to some extent on the timing chain and oil pump sprocket picking up oil from a vestigial sump in the timing chest.
Cool bananas
Perhaps a schematic drawing of OP’s breather system would be handy. Oil return (condensate) to timing chest would seem to have the opposite effect
This May be relevant
Suffice to say, if I’d installed the gears and felt even a couple of thou’ lash, I would have buttoned it up and off into the sunset.
I have a background in machining and I know what a couple of thou feels like and I could not discern any.
But that may be for the reasons mentioned.
I did have them in for a VERY short period.
The last time I ran it, I decided they were coming out. From that decision to lifting off the timing chest cover, was about 20 minutes.
The gears had a goodly coating of oil all over them and that was a hot engine with 20 minutes drain time.
Goodly,, wonderful
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Cool bananas
Perhaps a schematic drawing of OP’s breather system would be handy. Oil return (condensate) to timing chest would seem to have the opposite effect
This May be relevant
Goodly,, wonderful
So here is an image of Joes gears for the Norge and later BB engines which as far as the breather system go's replicates the original Guzzi chain drive system. The engine vents through the cam gear ribs via 4mm holes from the outer dia of the gear to the inner and into the holes in the nose of the cam. From there it goes forward in the hollow camshaft nose into the area on the front of the cam cover and out the vent on the lhs of the cam cover. Not shown on the cover is the seal holder and seal that seals the nose of the camshaft to the front cover. The last image shows in the bottom of the crankcase timing chest floor the two large dia holes around 20mm each that drain the area directly to the sump unlike older BB engine crankcases which have drain holes in the vertical face above the floor of the timing chest and retain a quantity of oil that the lower portion of the oil pump gear runs in and picks up oil. Note also the addition of cam lobe oiling holes just before the opening ramps fed I'm surmising from the rear cam bearing feed in a drilling through the centre of the camshaft. Technical evolution, always interesting.
(https://i.ibb.co/CVyfdnX/norge.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CVyfdnX)
(https://i.ibb.co/GFT4kxg/z12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GFT4kxg)
(https://i.ibb.co/hDdywX9/76mx-2643c17ff4e72ba9b3cd9500072bc65d.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hDdywX9)
(https://i.ibb.co/Yttd8Kr/s-l1600.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yttd8Kr)
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Just not necessary I don't think John. The std chain and tensioner are obviously lubricated quite effectively by the oil mist and the loading on the gear teeth on a geared system wont be that high. At the end of the day it's only driving the camshaft not the back wheel and Joes gears are pretty beefy. After seeing the way the Norge engine front timing case is configured I think the blocking off and raising the oil drain holes on the earlier engines to elevate the height of the trapped oil some people do is a pointless exercise and only serves to waste energy by additional drag and churn oil which elevates it's temperature and can lead to frothing.
A two and a half thou oil delivery hole isn't a practical size in an engine oil delivery system I dont think. I've seen oil pump bodies shed larger particles than that from contact with the tips of the gear teeth. It would be interesting to get a look at whats happening in there during running. On youtube there are various videos of car engine rocker covers and sumps that have been made see through. Interesting what goes on in there.
Ciao
That’s why I never did it. In this case there was a concern about the oiling on the gears with the new timing chest design so I mentioned it as a possible solution to a possible problem since it would be easy to do. It stands to reason hole size would need to be determined and I make no recommendations on that obviously. There are also the considerations of skill and tooling.
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That’s why I never did it. In this case there was a concern about the oiling on the gears with the new timing chest design so I mentioned it as a possible solution to a possible problem since it would be easy to do. It stands to reason hole size would need to be determined and I make no recommendations on that obviously. There are also the considerations of skill and tooling.
Ok sure. I just dont see oiling of the gears an issue on the later designs. If they were under a lot of load like the much narrower gearbox gears I might but not here. Anyway they have been fitted to later engines and I'll see what the outcome is but I don't expect any problems.
Ciao
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The title of the thread has been modified to allow for drift… :popcorn:
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The last image shows in the bottom of the crankcase timing chest floor the two large dia holes around 20mm each that drain the area directly to the sump unlike older BB engine crankcases which have drain holes in the vertical face above the floor of the timing chest and retain a quantity of oil that the lower portion of the oil pump gear runs in and picks up oil. . Technical evolution, always interesting.
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(https://i.ibb.co/Yttd8Kr/s-l1600.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yttd8Kr)
Yes, a picture tells a fousand words
Not quite as clear but my 67 V700 (70mm stroke, no oil filter, helical gears) , tractor not rocketship
Vertical and horizontal holes visible ( blow up for horiz holes under oil pump gear)
(https://i.ibb.co/GFZszYT/73847-CCD-F42-A-4862-936-A-EA5-F8-B48-A199.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GFZszYT)
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Yes, a picture tells a fousand words
Not quite as clear but my 67 V700 (70mm stroke, no oil filter, helical gears) , tractor not rocketship
Vertical and horizontal holes visible ( blow up for horiz holes under oil pump gear)
(https://i.ibb.co/GFZszYT/73847-CCD-F42-A-4862-936-A-EA5-F8-B48-A199.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GFZszYT)
So if I'm understanding correctly from your image the very early engines that came originally with a gear driven cam also had the timing chest drained via holes in the floor area and only when they went to chain driven cams they sealed the timing chest floor so the area retained oil? Is this the case?
Ciao
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So if I'm understanding correctly from your image the very early engines that came originally with a gear driven cam also had the timing chest drained via holes in the floor area and only when they went to chain driven cams they sealed the timing chest floor so the area retained oil? Is this the case?
Ciao
Early “Tonti” roundfin case, mid 70’s S3: T3, le mans, convert, G5, SP
Oil filter inside sump, dual points, Bosch alternator, manual cam chain tensioner
The most common motor, sold in the thousands, good reasons why but the chain was a bit of a drag., oh and the flywheels were steam era relics, took till the 1100 Sport and Daytona to slim them down. Both easily fixed
(https://i.ibb.co/zNRB8Ph/C146-C54-A-5022-4-A24-91-B5-3-B2-C61601-F6-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zNRB8Ph)
I don’t have any between 1967 and these, post a pic of what you have or have seen with year/ model etc, engine number if you don’t know.
May be owner modified, people do some weird stuff
I like this talk in pictures game, cuts the fairy stories out, the dreams, the weird opinions, the my mate Billy’s got a ten foot willy and he says etc etc
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I suppose when it’s all said and done, the gears are in exactly the same environment as the chain and the first one did 180,000 km with zero trouble.
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have been following this thread with interest as my timing gear 73 eldorado has the 4 oil holes in the bottom of the timing chest plugged with 10mm grub screws and it drains via the oil holes that are a 3rd of the way up behind the oil pump gear and another a little higher up, I have had the bike for about 12 years and and travelled 70,000 kms on it before I rebuilt it a while back due to annoying piston slap that it had since I purchased it and when I rebuilt it the bottom end and timing gears were sound so I left the plugs installed as I couldnt see any negative effects and being a diesel mechanic all my life I believe chains can run in a mist of oil but gears need a bath. Ray
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have been following this thread with interest as my timing gear 73 eldorado has the 4 oil holes in the bottom of the timing chest plugged with 10mm grub screws and it drains via the oil holes that are a 3rd of the way up behind the oil pump gear and another a little higher up, I have had the bike for about 12 years and and travelled 70,000 kms on it before I rebuilt it a while back due to annoying piston slap that it had since I purchased it and when I rebuilt it the bottom end and timing gears were sound so I left the plugs installed as I couldnt see any negative effects and being a diesel mechanic all my life I believe chains can run in a mist of oil but gears need a bath. Ray
Duly noted RB….
I think the jury is out to an extent as to how much oil is being thrown around in there during operation.
If I was sure it was a mist, then the gears would stay on the shelf. Roper assures me that it is an absolute maelstrom of oil being thrown everywhere during operation and I do know that when I pulled them out 20 minutes after shutdown, they were soaked in oil…
So I’m open to all comment.
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Duly noted RB….
I think the jury is out to an extent as to how much oil is being thrown around in there during operation.
If I was sure it was a mist, then the gears would stay on the shelf. Roper assures me that it is an absolute maelstrom of oil being thrown everywhere during operation and I do know that when I pulled them out 20 minutes after shutdown, they were soaked in oil…
So I’m open to all comment.
Here is an image of the Guareschi gear set they sell installed in an engine. It looks to me to probably be a late model Norge with the Troichoidal oil pump and it's also been modified to use MGS-01 piston oil squirters by the looks of things with the braided lines running behind the cam gears to the oil squirters MGS-01 style. So once again gear driven cam with as can be seen large oil drain holes in the timing chest. The final 2 images are of an 8 Valve Griso 1200 engine that uses gear cam drive as standard and also large drain holes in the timing chest. I think we can say without reservation that the cam drive gears can happily operate without a wet sump and oil mist lubrication only.
https://www.guareschimoto.it/prodotto/terna-ingranaggi/
(https://i.ibb.co/gVgSMm5/zz3-14890.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gVgSMm5)
(https://i.ibb.co/YP9brMp/Screenshot-2022-05-28-142417.png) (https://ibb.co/YP9brMp)
(https://i.ibb.co/wwNj529/Screenshot-2022-05-28-142539.png) (https://ibb.co/wwNj529)
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Duly noted RB….
I think the jury is out to an extent as to how much oil is being thrown around in there during operation.
If I was sure it was a mist, then the gears would stay on the shelf. Roper assures me that it is an absolute maelstrom of oil being thrown everywhere during operation and I do know that when I pulled them out 20 minutes after shutdown, they were soaked in oil…
So I’m open to all comment.
Fitters call, of course, never blame the manufacturer or internet opinions
But there are many ways to measure gear lash
(https://i.ibb.co/MhhctXP/FADE3-D07-10-E0-49-B9-B98-F-718050397385.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MhhctXP)
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I think it’s been mentioned in this thread that the distance between centers change as the temperature changes. Does anyone have a rough idea how much it moves from say, ambient 70f temp to operating temp after an hour of running? I know from having an oil temperature gauge on several big blocks that it takes an average of 30 miles for the oil temp, taken from a sender in the drain plug, to stabilize. From there it fluctuates depending on the variables. What average temp is the alloy in the block do you suppose? Caruso has likely calculated and possibly measured the difference change between the gears .just curious this morning..
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I think it’s been mentioned in this thread that the distance between centers change as the temperature changes. Does anyone have a rough idea how much it moves from say, ambient 70f temp to operating temp after an hour of running? I know from having an oil temperature gauge on several big blocks that it takes an average of 30 miles for the oil temp, taken from a sender in the drain plug, to stabilize. From there it fluctuates depending on the variables. What average temp is the alloy in the block do you suppose? Caruso has likely calculated and possibly measured the difference change between the gears .just curious this morning..
I have measured the difference between the case expansion between the main bearing bores and the crank main bearing outside flywheel faces of a bevel drive Ducati to calculate the preload to use on the main bearings for assembly. I could make an educated guess on the Guzzi main and cam bore growth after I measured the centres. The cases will run at around 90 deg C in that area on average more or less.
Ciao
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Speaking of noisy gear train, I have 3 or 4 early fine pitch timing sets on the shelf, they are out of V700s, they belong where they are, they have to be heard in operation from behind a Polizia fairing for hours on end.......DonG
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Speaking of noisy gear train, I have 3 or 4 early fine pitch timing sets on the shelf, they are out of V700s, they belong where they are, they have to be heard in operation from behind a Polizia fairing for hours on end.......DonG
Thanks for that Don
Maybe no help to OP but someone might find this with search
I knew about the 3 gearboxes on V700’s but didn’t know about timing gears
So I looked it up
According to parts books, series 1&2 use same crank gear but different cam gear. The series 3 has different number for the set (no longer sell individually)
FWIW mine is series 2, SS1’s, restrictors in heads, straight cut 1st, helical 2,3 &4
Motor (albeit ridiculously low mileage from new) is so quiet it would pass Euro 5 noise test, even straight cut first is barely audible, timing gears not at all.
Are your noisy ones incredibly high mileage and worn to a point ?
Photo might be good, worn helical gears usually obvious