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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bison on May 31, 2022, 03:03:12 PM
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Hi Folks,
Me again.
Does anyone have an explanation why my 2007 Norge TPS should keep losing calibration?.
I replaced it because of this problem, but it's still going out of calibration.
It was set to 4.7degrees, the bike ran beautifully, then it started the cutting out problem again, completely randomly, then there was a terrible low speed throttle response, just off of idle. I rechecked the TPS, 2.4 degrees, reset it, 4.8 degrees, twisted the throttle a few times, 4.5 degrees, reset it again, 4.7, twisted the throttle, ok, stayed at 4.7. rode the bike, running nicely, checked the TPS, 4.5. rode it tonight, I was doing a low speed and emergency stop lesson, ran perfectly, got to about 47 miles out and slowed down, opened the throttle, it died, then picked up, pulled over just up the road, the engine died while coasting to a stop. it always starts right away after it dies. I'll check the tps again tomorrow to see what it's reading. Seems like the signal is breaking down?.
New ECU, cam sensor, relays, fuses, earths, side stand,neutral, clutch switch fuel filter, the list goes on, to try to cure the problem, it didn't.
The dash doesn't die, all functions stay alive when this happens, and no fault codes. The engine just dies, completely randomly, but only when slowing down then accelerating again.
I am assuming the tps going out of calibration is connected in some way. I think it earths through the ECU, but all pins are gleaming and new, as is the ecu earth. I've checked the wiring going to the tps, no breaks or chaffs that I can see.
Cheers,
Alan.
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Jeez Bison, you have the patience of a saint..!
I have no idea, my ‘07 has never done that so I’m clueless. I hope someone with greater diagnostic skills comes along, it must be infuriating and I will be watching your progress.
Why the damn thing moves out of range is perplexing. When you replace it, is there any way that it can mechanically move ?
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Hi Huzo,
No, it's fixed quite well, I replaced the screws with nice stainless allen screws to make it easier to remove.
Actually it's driving me nuts!
HA!.
Alan.
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Hi Huzo,
No, it's fixed quite well, I replaced the screws with nice stainless allen screws to make it easier to remove.
Actually it's driving me nuts!
HA!.
Alan.
Hell yeah..!
Stick with it mate, for all our sakes. I’m clueless.
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I also noted that even when the stepper motor hose is plugged the idle which is normally 1100 will sometimes go to 1500 or more completely randomly, clutch switch?, it all checks out though. and I've bridged it to see if that helped, it didn't. I noticed that with the stepper motor hose linked up, pulling the handlebar lever hard into the handlebar seems to settle the revs down?. Could it still be the clutch switch?
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Yes if it's a 2V Norge, the only model that I had issues w/that switch for some reason I know nothing about.
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You should repost your long description on the Griso ghetto. A couple of real boffins live there. The Norge and the Griso share the same electronics, and they will be glad to help, I am sure. If you can't find the fix there, you can't find it anywhere.
Moto
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TPS going out of "cal" can only be caused by four things. Bad TPS, bad ECU, wiring fault, or mechanical connection between throttle body and TPS.
If I read your post correctly, you have replaced the TPS and ECU? Which can only mean wiring fault or mechanical problem.
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I bridged the clutch switch, no difference, I then rode it and checked the TPS base setting after the ride, 7.8 degrees, it was set to 4.7 yesterday.
Just going to double check the wiring as advised.
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You might want to check the throttle body above TPS and see if the butterfly is loose, got play.
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My experience with the same problem made me invest in a can of DeOxit. Remove the TPS but first mark where it is currently. Flood the TPS with DeOxit and dry with compressed air. Repeat! This will remove any impurities that are causing this condition. Remember to turn the part that rotates back and forth....more DeOxit....Put back on engine to spot that you previously marked. Should now be fixed and come off idle smoothly.
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Hi,
It's a brand new tps, exactly the same problem.
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Hi folks
Yes, I removed the tps and checked the tb shaft for play, and there is some, and it could definitely be contributing, however, this problem didn't slowly creep up on me, the bike was running fine then the starter button problem arose, and it brought with it the cutting out problem, although the starter button is working perfectly now after replacing the ecu.
This is pretty random, as I said, much slow riding and emergency stops last night, it never missed a beat, then we rode for maybe 5 or 6 miles and it cut out when slowing down, and again when coming to a stop, and both these times I was slowing in a controlled manner, in between these two cut outs I stopped at two junctions, never missed a beat. Close the throttle and open it, I would say 95% of the time and its perfe ct,, but it's completely unpredictable. Is the abs speed sensor worth checking?. I noticed and repaired a broken wire to the abs switch, but that's all, everything else seems fine. The question is, is the tps losing calibration the cause of my problem or a symptom?.
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Now I don't want to get too excited but it ran ok when I just went out, maybe 20 miles, no problem, the only thing I did was repair that ABS switch and remove and refit the TPS, I haven't reset it either. I tried again and again to get it to cut out and it didn't. The ABS switch?, really?, c'mon, it has to be coincidence.
I've been here before though, thinking it was fixed
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Have you checked for any codes she might have thrown ?
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Hi Huzo,
No fault codes have ever shown, for any of the problems I've had with it.
Tomorrow I will test it extensively.
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Does it always drift the same way after a reset? ie always get smaller?
If so I wonder if the sacred screw or tie rod has worked themselves loose
and move the set point
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If the throttle body bushes are badly worn you'll never get a stable TPS baseline.
Ciao
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It's not the ABS. It can't affect the TPS.
As I previously mentioned, and as Lucky Phil mentions above, a serious look at the throttle bodies is required.
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Does it always drift the same way after a reset? ie always get smaller?
If so I wonder if the sacred screw or tie rod has worked themselves loose
and move the set point
Nice one..!
On that line, are the ball joints and fitment of same, secure.
ie
Can you hold one quadrant and move the other ?
Have you had a manometer on the TB’s ?
Just a home made U tube with appropriate liquid.
I can see that some of what I just typed is a nonsense, because you say that the calibration is slipping.
How is the TPS joined to the butterfly shaft and is the stop screw on the LH quadrant sound ?
I’m fishing in this area, because I’m wondering if the TPS is ok, but the shaft itself is not stopping at the same point.
Now of course (I think…), if the butterfly shaft is not abutting at the same place, the idle revs will change and the ECU will tell the stepper to make an adjustment.
I would make certain that the TPS is firmly mated to the shaft and then see if the butterflies are able to move independently of each other due to some anomaly in the tie rod or quadrant mechanism.
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Good morning from a lovely sunny Scotland.
So, yes, I must completely concur, it can not have been the abs switch. The throttle bodies are perfect on my very accurate gauges, and also when swapping gauges from one to the other, and it always comes back to the same idle speed. There is no play in the linkages, and minimal play when holding the left tb and trying to move the right shaft, no more than on any of my other bikes. I removed the tps and checked for smooth movement and it seems to be fine. The readings were high and low yesterday and the day before. The bike was running fine last night, I will today check the tps angle, and test.
I did however check all the wiring and connectors I could see under the tank and in the relay area, including removing all the relays (again) and cleaning the connections/checking wires/fuses, I found nothing, apart from the discounted abs switch, is it possible I inadvertantly fixed a bad connection?. But I've been through them umpteen times.
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What about your ground connections? Especially the one on the ECU? Clean & tight?
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Gleaming and tight!.
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You fixed it now ride it.
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Good evening avid readers,
Are you ready for the latest installment?
OK, the tps was removed and checked fir smooth movement and the tb's checked for play, cleaned all the relays while I was in there. For probably the 6th time. The bike ran great. I reset the tps this morning, 4.8. Went for a lovely ride, I have to say, the bike has never run better, and the idle a rock steady 1100rpm, I rode about 60 miles, slowed down, blah hhh, nothing, then it picked up again, rode another 20 or so miles back and it did it twice more, the idle was all over the place checked the tps, 3.8. Reset to 4.8 again..
So with Guzzidiag connected I got a screwdriver and a small hook into the space between the tps and the throttle body, grabbed the top of the shaft and moved it back and fourth as much as I could, the absolute maximum deflection I could get was 5.1 degrees and 4.6 degrees, that's 0.3 degrees one way and 0.2 the other, I opened the throttle a bit and tried it in that position, the same deflection. This leads me to the conclusion that although there's wear in the tb's, that's unlikely to be the cause of the tps resetting itself.
So, all relays have been replaced, the fuel injection relay was new in a bag I got with spares for the bike, I've ordered the proper Guzzi one, just incase the injection relay could influence the tps setting?, is this possible?. It definitely seems to be temperature oriented too, only does it when hot, or so it seems. Only happens when you close and then open the throttle, not just when you change down, and it's completely random, I tried to get it to happen on a maybe 5 mile long straight with no traffic, 60 to 30 in top, perfect, change down to 10mph, perfect, slow for a sharp bend, no problem, a mile later slow for another sharp bend, blahhh, it dies, then picks up?.
I'm going to call her Christine, I think she's posessed!!!.
Ideas?..
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My only suggestion is go get a bottle of that lovely single malt your country is famous for and spend a couple of days enjoying it.
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Strange you should mention that, I have about a dozen bottles, I sampled some last night.
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You might try this, with the bike off. disconnect the TPS connector and hook up an Ohmmeter from the center pin to the outer pin on the tps and rotate the throttle. the reading should be linear with no blips or gaps. Next try the other outer pin and see what it does. If it's not smooth, time for a new TPS. My $.02.
Paul B :boozing:
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You might try this, with the bike off. disconnect the TPS connector and hook up an Ohmmeter from the center pin to the outer pin on the tps and rotate the throttle. the reading should be linear with no blips or gaps. Next try the other outer pin and see what it does. If it's not smooth, time for a new TPS. My $.02.
Paul B :boozing:
You can also get GuzziDiag to trace TPS for a quick shufti
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Good evening avid readers,
Are you ready for the latest installment?
OK, the tps was removed and checked fir smooth movement and the tb's checked for play, cleaned all the relays while I was in there. For probably the 6th time. The bike ran great. I reset the tps this morning, 4.8. Went for a lovely ride, I have to say, the bike has never run better, and the idle a rock steady 1100rpm, I rode about 60 miles, slowed down, blah hhh, nothing, then it picked up again, rode another 20 or so miles back and it did it twice more, the idle was all over the place checked the tps, 3.8. Reset to 4.8 again..
So with Guzzidiag connected I got a screwdriver and a small hook into the space between the tps and the throttle body, grabbed the top of the shaft and moved it back and fourth as much as I could, the absolute maximum deflection I could get was 5.1 degrees and 4.6 degrees, that's 0.3 degrees one way and 0.2 the other, I opened the throttle a bit and tried it in that position, the same deflection. This leads me to the conclusion that although there's wear in the tb's, that's unlikely to be the cause of the tps resetting itself.
So, all relays have been replaced, the fuel injection relay was new in a bag I got with spares for the bike, I've ordered the proper Guzzi one, just incase the injection relay could influence the tps setting?, is this possible?. It definitely seems to be temperature oriented too, only does it when hot, or so it seems. Only happens when you close and then open the throttle, not just when you change down, and it's completely random, I tried to get it to happen on a maybe 5 mile long straight with no traffic, 60 to 30 in top, perfect, change down to 10mph, perfect, slow for a sharp bend, no problem, a mile later slow for another sharp bend, blahhh, it dies, then picks up?.
I'm going to call her Christine, I think she's posessed!!!.
Ideas?..
The std Guzzi relays aren't the best. Omron relays are the choice relays as they have a higher current capacity that pretty much any other available. Just for info. Your bike has the linier relay, correct? The PF03 without the slotted mount holes?
Phil
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Hi folks,
Thanks for all the replies.
Tried the meter on the tps months ago, fine, then I moved into the digital worls and traced the curve on Guzzi diag, fine. It seems the problem is not the actual function of the tps, but that the base level is randomly reseting when I close then open the throttle. And I wondered if the tps becoming confused for that moment could cause the engine to die then pick up again I was plucking at straws replacing the injection relay again, I honestly don't know if that can have any influence on the tps reseting. Today I'm going to take the airbox off again, check all the earths snd wiring again, run a seperate earth from the ecu to the battery earth again., then I'm going to see if I can get a test ride on a v85tt and a certain other Italian motorcycle which starts with D and ends with ucati. Thing is I love my Norge, it's the perfect bike for me. Well, apart from the weight.
If my son can access the eeprom on the computer I have been given something to try by Thee Guru of Guzzi electronics though. So perhaps not all is lost. I just know it will be something silly!...
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OK, with my limited brain capacity I've been trying to be logical, no sniggering at the back there Smithers!.
This all started with a non functioning start button. The start relay was not earthing through the ecu pin. Replacing the ecu fixed this. Before replacing the ecu I had a total electrical black out for about a minute while trying to start the bike, it turned over about 2 or 3 times then I lost all electrical power, then came back on by itself after about a couple of minutes. Immediately after this it started cutting out. And has been ever since. It is random. The cutting out resets the tps, my logic is that the tps being out of spec will make the bike run rough and also idle poorly, stalling sometimes but it would not make the engine cut out then pick up again randomly..when the engine then gets power the tps is reset at the angle its at when power restores. The dash while all this cutting out is happening behaves perfectly normally, no lights on, or lack of speedo or rev counter.
All of these events point to one source, grounds/earth's. I have been through every earth on the bike multiple times, over and over again. Today I'm going to run as many separate earth to the ecu, frame, engine as I can, I have a bundle of earth leads.
Please do knock flaws in this summation, and if I've already been down that road I'll say.
The other logical thought is fuel starvation, but once again, everything has been out of the tank and checked.
I'm going to run separate earth's from the fuel pump, sidstand switch and injector relay to the battery earth
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Could the ECU be loosing power? That MAY??? cause it to loose it's settings?? (EXPERT ADVISE NEEDED HERE). Maybe if there is a power loss to the ECU or somewhere else, that could also be causing your cutting out issue??
I think we have already been through checking the wires at the dash by engine running and turning the bars, wiggling wires as well as key switch. Might try wiggling the key switch when it cuts out, as well as to off then back to on.
Kiwi Roy is fond of using small lights to monitor electrical systems. He may be able to describe what needs to be done and where to add some lights.
Another thought that I'm not sure if it's been covered already. Coils. Maybe when they get hot they fail? If when the bike cuts out and stays that way for a few minutes, you should be able to pull a plug wire and stick in a spare plug and ground the plug to the head to check for spark. Careful, only hold it by the rubber boot.
Good luck,
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Thanks for the suggestion. The ecu losing power is of corse possible, but how I would check for that I have no idea, I would have thought it would have generated a fault code?. The coils I think are unlikely as the whole bike cuts out, and the chances of two coils going in the same way at the same time are minimal I think.. No possibility of testing anyway, it cuts out for literally 2 or 3 seconds, then picks right up again if it stops at a junction it starts again instantly.
Wiggling the key is a good idea, but I doubt I would have time, and when it does come back in, you don't know when, you need two hands on the bars, it's really quite dangerous..
I didn't get to it today, I was working on my Ducati rebuild.
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I'm not reading back but did you also put a new cam wheel sensor on it, the one in front of LH cyl ?
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Another thought on the cutting out at least. I know you checked all the sensors to see if they should be working. But...
Maybe you can find a way to temporarily bypass these two? Or....Activate them in you workspace and see if the bike does the EXACT same things like dash on or off and the like.
Sidestand. You either need to jumper the wires or just pull one lead off. Stand may be moving just a hair or two and activating the switch, may need to be adjusted.
Tipover. Maybe it's overly sensitive and is being jostled just right. Not sure how to bypass it. Maybe pull it out and hold uptight and see the readings and then on it's side or even upside down and see what it reads.
Tom
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ECU losing power won't cause the TPS to change values. The offset value is stored in the EEPROM. Also, ECU losing power would cause the "ECU unplugged" message on the dash.
The TPS offset stored in the ECU is based on the voltage measured by the ECU with the throttle closed. If that voltage changes, then the relative value of the TPS throttle angle will be affected.
Therefore, given there is a new ECU, this issue can only be caused by the actual TPS "throttle closed" position, or a wiring/ground problem affecting the voltage on the TPS.
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Thanks folks.
As reported, wiring or grounds I think, and I'm thinking grounds most likely as there was a non grounding problem with the start button. Today I'll try to get round to rigging separate ground wires. I have the stand jumpered, just the same.
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Hi Folks,
I've been delaying this post so I could get some miles on, got about 250 now, so I didn't tempt fate. It's fixed, there, I said it, aaarrgghh.
OK, Norge ECU wasn't fixed, but the "fixer will provide a new ECU at around £60 more, as I've already paid to have it fixed it's a no brainer.
I knew the TPS from the Ducati and the Norge were different, one adjusted manually, one electronically, but had no idea what controlled them other than the ecu. I had my son download the EEPROM from the Guzzi ecu, then I fitted the Ducati 5AM ECU again and had him write over the Ducati EEPROM with the Guzzi one. Fixed, the TPS is now steady.
The bike is running better than it ever has.
I'm pretty sure my original problem was caused by a faulty tilt switch, which I replaced, along with many other components.
So, many thanks people, I hope this will help another poor soul not to have this journey!
Alan.
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Hi Folks,
I've been delaying this post so I could get some miles on, got about 250 now, so I didn't tempt fate. It's fixed, there, I said it, aaarrgghh.
OK, Norge ECU wasn't fixed, but the "fixer will provide a new ECU at around £60 more, as I've already paid to have it fixed it's a no brainer.
I knew the TPS from the Ducati and the Norge were different, one adjusted manually, one electronically, but had no idea what controlled them other than the ecu. I had my son download the EEPROM from the Guzzi ecu, then I fitted the Ducati 5AM ECU again and had him write over the Ducati EEPROM with the Guzzi one. Fixed, the TPS is now steady.
The bike is running better than it ever has.
I'm pretty sure my original problem was caused by a faulty tilt switch, which I replaced, along with many other components.
So, many thanks people, I hope this will help another poor soul not to have this journey!
Alan.
Did I miss something in this thread? you were chasing a TPS issue with a Ducati ECU fitted to a Guzzi? Is this correct? From what I think I know you can't just use a Ducati ECU even though they may be both the same basic ecu and load a Guzzi .bin file and expect it to work. As you've discovered there are EEprom differences and also pinout differences to a Ducati.
Where did you mention fitting a Ducati ecu?
Phil
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Sorry about any confusion, I have a separate thread going which I posted to yesterday.
The Ducati ECU is a 5AM, same as the Guzzi, the important thing is the hardware numbers are the same, in this case HW610. What I didn't know was the EEPROM content was also different, and that is why the TPS wasn't being controlled. I downloaded the Guzzi map, and also the EEPROM content, and everything now works beautifully. All ECU's are bought into the factory, the manufacturer downloads it's requirements, some requirements are different to other. In this case the clue was the ducati TPS is manually adjusted, the Guzzi one electronically
The time line as I said I think for both posts was. 1, starter button not working, 2 rigged bypass of starter button, 3 bike started cutting out on closed throttle 4 blew ECU 5 fitted Ducati ecu, starter button now works, 6 bike still cutting out 7 replace tilt switch, bike doesn't cut out 8 ducati ecu does not control TPS, 9 overwrite ducati EEPROM with Guzzi EEPROM, bike runs faultlessly
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I should also add I am the original analogue man in a digital world.
The Ducati ECU fitment was stated in the post about the starter switch not working, I didn't guess that the EEPROM difference was causing the ECU problem until much later. I uploaded the Guzzi map and thought that was all I could do.
I just thought i would post my findings , it might help someone else in my position. Looking through old posts many times people don't post their solution or findings, so it renders the whole exercise useless pretty much. I should not have assumed people trying to help with the TPS problem would have known about my other post. My apology.
Alan.
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Thanks Alan,
It's always nice to hear of the solution to an extended problem when most if not all the advice you get doesn't completely solve the issue.
Now we're all a little smarter, never too old to learn, just have to remember what I learned :evil:
Paul B :boozing:
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Sorry about any confusion, I have a separate thread going which I posted to yesterday.
The Ducati ECU is a 5AM, same as the Guzzi, the important thing is the hardware numbers are the same, in this case HW610. What I didn't know was the EEPROM content was also different, and that is why the TPS wasn't being controlled. I downloaded the Guzzi map, and also the EEPROM content, and everything now works beautifully. All ECU's are bought into the factory, the manufacturer downloads it's requirements, some requirements are different to other. In this case the clue was the ducati TPS is manually adjusted, the Guzzi one electronically
The time line as I said I think for both posts was. 1, starter button not working, 2 rigged bypass of starter button, 3 bike started cutting out on closed throttle 4 blew ECU 5 fitted Ducati ecu, starter button now works, 6 bike still cutting out 7 replace tilt switch, bike doesn't cut out 8 ducati ecu does not control TPS, 9 overwrite ducati EEPROM with Guzzi EEPROM, bike runs faultlessly
It's more than that. One is a linier TPS and the other a "non linier" TPS. Two different outputs to degrees of rotation.
Phil
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IN 60+ YEARS AS A SPARKY I HAVE NEVER SEEN SUCH CONFUSED WIRING I WOULD DUMP IT AT YOUR DEAER AND TELL THEM TO FIX IT, EITHER THAT OR HOT WIRE A START BUTTON BETWEEN BATTERY + AND THE SPADE CONNECTOR,
There is something Guzzi aren't telling us about this wiring, I don't have a clue what it is.