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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: MotoGuzzi750 on July 08, 2022, 09:24:58 PM
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Hi experts,
2004, Moto Guzzi Breva 750IE, ~20k miles:
About 2 weeks back, I was near end of about an hours drive stopped at the red signal, clutch pressed in, in first gear, waiting -- when the engine suddenly went dead/stopped.
I tried to re-start the engine, but could not get the bike to crank.
I pushed the bike to nearby parking lot, tried to crank few times, no luck.
I was about the call towing after 5-10 mins, when it cranked and started ! ( such a relief ! )
I drove around parking lot just to make sure bike was working, when it died again !
I repeated the same, i.e., waited for 5-10 mins, and it cranked and started, after which I was able to drive home.
I have not driven it after this, and have not checked anything yet.
What could be the problem?
This has not happened before.
Could it be bad side stand switch? or it is starting relay/some fuse/something else?
Today, I was able to check that starting relay is makes 'click' sound when start button is pressed.
( I have to re-charge the battery since it is non-operational since my last drive about 2-3 weeks back, so could not get bike to start, it just gave a weak crank ).
- Where to I start ?
( After re-charging the battery, even though it maybe able to start and drive, I want to find and repair the original problem, so that I don't get stranded in the middle of traffic )
Thanks in advance for your help !
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First, fix the battery. You can't do any reliable fault finding without a good battery. Have yours load-tested & recharged, or replaced. It could well be your problem.
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Bat tree..
Takes a charge but not holding it…slowly draining while riding until no go..i had a bike do that. I left the turn signal on, next town over it died. Wait 15 mins and the battery recovered just enough to start, but several miles later, konk
Unless it’s the charging system not doing it’s job, in which case I’ve heard of people getting home from a rally by stopping at walwart every few hours and exchanging the now dead battery with a fresh one…neat trick
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The 750 is tough on batteries because there's a parasitic drain, even when the bike is shut off. Most late model cars and bikes have this, but the Breva and V7 were ahead of their time in getting this fault early on.
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I think this is the schematic.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_750_Breva.gif
Learn how to hot wire the starter solenoid Brown yellow wire to the hot terminal of the solenoid then at least you should be able to spin the motor over.
Brevas have always been prone to Startus Interrupts caused by a weak feed to the start relay but I have no clue why it stopped while running, perhaps a failure of the RPM sensor dropped out the Main Injection relay, I often advocate connecting a small lamp to that as a troubleshooting aid
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First, fix the battery. You can't do any reliable fault finding without a good battery. Have yours load-tested & recharged, or replaced. It could well be your problem.
Update:
My DIY load testing is a pass on the battery, which I am not surprised since I know the battery is only about a year old.
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Bat tree..
Takes a charge but not holding it…slowly draining while riding until no go..i had a bike do that. I left the turn signal on, next town over it died. Wait 15 mins and the battery recovered just enough to start, but several miles later, konk
Unless it’s the charging system not doing it’s job, in which case I’ve heard of people getting home from a rally by stopping at walwart every few hours and exchanging the now dead battery with a fresh one…neat trick
( Reposting my reply above )
Update:
My DIY load testing is a pass on the battery, which I am not surprised since I know the battery is only about a year old.
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The 750 is tough on batteries because there's a parasitic drain, even when the bike is shut off. Most late model cars and bikes have this, but the Breva and V7 were ahead of their time in getting this fault early on.
[/quote
Even if your battery is fine, take note of this. As little as 3 weeks and it's dead.
#2. Side stand switch. Mine was never problematic until it suddenly died in the middle of nowhere on dusk. Fortunately remembered previous people on W.G. mentioning this. Felt underneath and a large rock had taken out the wires. The one that shorts things out was still attached but with about an inch of exposed copper which had shorted things out. It can be as little as the sidestand being a bit stiff and dry and allowing to go to ground. Regular maintenance should include lubing of the sidestand.
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Hi
I think it would be nice to connect a laptop and check the log. I am using GuzziDiag and a cable to connect to the EPU. If there are no errors, the next step is to check the ignition coil connectors. Sometimes they turn sour and you need to have a special spray.
Goog luck!
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The 750 is tough on batteries because there's a parasitic drain, even when the bike is shut off. Most late model cars and bikes have this, but the Breva and V7 were ahead of their time in getting this fault early on.
Ok.
My question is: I had new battery only last summer/season.
I am surprised that battery lasted only one year.
What are your thoughts/experiences?
btw, I have ordered a new battery, and will know after I install if this solves that problem.
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The 750 is tough on batteries because there's a parasitic drain, even when the bike is shut off. Most late model cars and bikes have this, but the Breva and V7 were ahead of their time in getting this fault early on.
Also, for parasitic drain, I was thinking about adding a heavy duty switch in series with positive terminal of battery.
When one is done with driving, just turn off that switch, stops all/most parasitic drain.
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I think this is the schematic.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_750_Breva.gif
Learn how to hot wire the starter solenoid Brown yellow wire to the hot terminal of the solenoid then at least you should be able to spin the motor over.
Brevas have always been prone to Startus Interrupts caused by a weak feed to the start relay but I have no clue why it stopped while running, perhaps a failure of the RPM sensor dropped out the Main Injection relay, I often advocate connecting a small lamp to that as a troubleshooting aid
Thanks for the schematic diagram. appreciate it.
I have ordered a new battery, will know once I try it.
Meanwhile, I measured voltage levels at the starter relay, and was surprised that the voltage going to starter motor at relay was 8.6 volts once I press the Start switch.
Seems like 8.6 V. is very low voltage. Even at the input terminal of starter relay it shows 8.6V.
So both input and output at the starter relay are low voltage.
This was after I charged the battery overnight.
Interesting..
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Sounds like the battery is getting weak. Not the first time that a fairly new battery craps out. Hopefully the battery will solve your problems.
My HD goes through batteries. Morning start just fine. A few hours later, just fine. Rode about 1/2 hour and stopped at a store for about 10 minutes. Cranked, but not as fast as normal but not slow. No start. Called AAA, hooked up jump box and 2 revolutions it was running. Got home. Turned off then on to start the bike, started right up. Waited about 15 minutes, no start again. New battery on order.
Tom
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You have the starterinteruptis issue common to many Guzzis. Google it on this forum and apply the fix before you do anything else.
When I had my Breva I put a battery disconnect on the Negative of my battery to prevent the parasitic loss.
EDIT, I somehow missed Kiwi_Roy's post. He is the expert on this and has helped me out on more than a couple of occasions.
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Sounds like the battery is getting weak. Not the first time that a fairly new battery craps out. Hopefully the battery will solve your problems.
My HD goes through batteries. Morning start just fine. A few hours later, just fine. Rode about 1/2 hour and stopped at a store for about 10 minutes. Cranked, but not as fast as normal but not slow. No start. Called AAA, hooked up jump box and 2 revolutions it was running. Got home. Turned off then on to start the bike, started right up. Waited about 15 minutes, no start again. New battery on order.
Tom
Yeah, I am hoping new battery will solve the problem.
If it does, and if parasitic loss is the issue, I will seriously consider adding a switch to turn off connection to battery.
Lets see how it goes with new battery ( which I just ordered yesterday )...
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I think this is the schematic.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_750_Breva.gif
Learn how to hot wire the starter solenoid Brown yellow wire to the hot terminal of the solenoid then at least you should be able to spin the motor over.
Brevas have always been prone to Startus Interrupts caused by a weak feed to the start relay but I have no clue why it stopped while running, perhaps a failure of the RPM sensor dropped out the Main Injection relay, I often advocate connecting a small lamp to that as a troubleshooting aid
When I press the 'start' button, voltage at the output of start relay is about 8.6V., so def. it is weak feed ( as you said above ).
( waiting for the new battery to be delivered..)
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I think this is the schematic.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_750_Breva.gif
Learn how to hot wire the starter solenoid Brown yellow wire to the hot terminal of the solenoid then at least you should be able to spin the motor over.
Brevas have always been prone to Startus Interrupts caused by a weak feed to the start relay but I have no clue why it stopped while running, perhaps a failure of the RPM sensor dropped out the Main Injection relay, I often advocate connecting a small lamp to that as a troubleshooting aid
Question:
Just curious,
What does the Bank Angle sensor do ?
What does the T Head Sensor do ?
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Question:
Just curious,
What does the Bank Angle sensor do ?
What does the T Head Sensor do ?
Bank angle sensors are also known as Tip Over sensors, since they are designed to tell the ECM to cut fuel and ignition in the event of a crash/drop. As such they must be installed physically facing the right direction (usually marked UP or something like that).
T head sounds like Temperature Head, so my guess is the cylinder head temperature sensor, an input used by the ECM in fuel mapping to determine if the engine is cold or at operating temperature.
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Bank angle sensors are also known as Tip Over sensors, since they are designed to tell the ECM to cut fuel and ignition in the event of a crash/drop. As such they must be installed physically facing the right direction (usually marked UP or something like that).
T head sounds like Temperature Head, so my guess is the cylinder head temperature sensor, an input used by the ECM in fuel mapping to determine if the engine is cold or at operating temperature.
Ok. thanks.
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Ok.
My question is: I had new battery only last summer/season.
I am surprised that battery lasted only one year.
What are your thoughts/experiences?
btw, I have ordered a new battery, and will know after I install if this solves that problem.
I’m following the voltage carefully on an new battery myself after experiencing a shot battery after only 2 years on a 2007 Nevada. My previous routine was charging a battery once a month was fine on a big block, just by starting and riding it. That routine stopped working on this small block. I’d regularly roll the bike out and cliclicliclic…nothing. Apparently charging or riding it every 2-3 weeks is what seems to be needed. I use a battery tender brand at 750 milliamperes. Plugging it in at the end of a ride it still goes into charging mode (surprise!) and ups the battery to 13.8 volts, then goes into a resting state. I wouldn’t think it needed a charge after a long ride, but there it is..
I’ve not heard of startus interuptous on the smallblock breva..definitely had it on a cal3
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I think this is the schematic.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_750_Breva.gif
Learn how to hot wire the starter solenoid Brown yellow wire to the hot terminal of the solenoid then at least you should be able to spin the motor over.
Brevas have always been prone to Startus Interrupts caused by a weak feed to the start relay but I have no clue why it stopped while running, perhaps a failure of the RPM sensor dropped out the Main Injection relay, I often advocate connecting a small lamp to that as a troubleshooting aid
While I am waiting for new battery to be delivered, would like to learn how to hot wire the starter motor, as you have suggested.
I do not have enough understanding on my own on this, so can you teach/guide me on this, if you don't mind?
My understanding is, this is emergency startup procedure to get bike started to get home, right?
Thanks.
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I’m following the voltage carefully on an new battery myself after experiencing a shot battery after only 2 years on a 2007 Nevada. My previous routine was charging a battery once a month was fine on a big block, just by starting and riding it. That routine stopped working on this small block. I’d regularly roll the bike out and cliclicliclic…nothing. Apparently charging or riding it every 2-3 weeks is what seems to be needed. I use a battery tender brand at 750 milliamperes. Plugging it in at the end of a ride it still goes into charging mode (surprise!) and ups the battery to 13.8 volts, then goes into a resting state. I wouldn’t think it needed a charge after a long ride, but there it is..
I’ve not heard of startus interuptous on the smallblock breva..definitely had it on a cal3
Mine did not even last two seasons, lasted just one season/year.
Wonder how other Moto Guzzi owners are dealing with this issue ?
Surprised that yours would take charge from wall charger after a ride..hm..is the alternator weak on these bikes ? or something else?
Also, I was thinking maybe replacing filament lights with LED lights would decrease loading on battery, which should help in theory.
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This is the video I used to fix Startus Interuptus. Made a huge difference.
I also carry a spare relay with me at all times on the bike. Some could evidently prove problematical.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBfF2-K0KOw&t=155s
edit; this won't help your bike stopping at the lights but makes a hang of a difference getting it going again.
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This is the video I used to fix Startus Interuptus. Made a huge difference.
I also carry a spare relay with me at all times on the bike. Some could evidently prove problematical.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBfF2-K0KOw&t=155s
edit; this won't help your bike stopping at the lights but makes a hang of a difference getting it going again.
I had this fix in place already before this problem occurred.
This problem occurred with this fix in place already.
So, there is something more going on in my case.
Thanks for the link though.
If I am going to keep the bike for long, I will seriously consider reducing the load on the new battery. ( which I have ordered and am waiting for delivery )
Will be a interesting/fun experiment to see if that helps in having to replace battery so soon.
My idea is/are:
1. Replace the current hogging halogen head bulbs with LED, maybe leave the turn signal bulbs alone.
2. Have a small Lithium battery from handheld cordless power tools, separately to run the headlights only.
Lets see how it goes..
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I had this fix in place already before this problem occurred.
This problem occurred with this fix in place already.
So, there is something more going on in my case.
Thanks for the link though.
If I am going to keep the bike for long, I will seriously consider reducing the load on the new battery. ( which I have ordered and am waiting for delivery )
Will be a interesting/fun experiment to see if that helps in having to replace battery so soon.
My idea is/are:
1. Replace the current hogging halogen head bulbs with LED, maybe leave the turn signal bulbs alone.
2. Have a small Lithium battery from handheld cordless power tools, separately to run the headlights only.
Lets see how it goes..
I'm sorry I haven't been following this thread closely enough and without re-reading it may I ask - WHY do you think you need to reduce load on the battery? Is it undercharging during normal operation? Do you have a bunch of accessories drawing power?
If the charging system is keeping up with load that shouldn't make any difference in battery life.
Battery life can suffer from:
* Discharging from parasitic load after weeks of non-use and being allowed to sulfate/sit in that state
* Exposure to extreme ambient conditions
* Overcharging
* maybe from lot of deep cycling (discharging and charging later)
If it's the first, then just put it on a tender for a day or two each week.
If it's the second, nothing you can do unless you move.
If it's the third, fix it, the regulator/rectifier is broken
If it's the last - well, that's the only time your inquiry MIGHT make sense (assuming the charging system isn't keeping up with the load)
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As soon as my '04 Breva 750 returns to the garage, it gets connected to the Battery Tender. Ditto the other two bikes. I cannot imagine not getting at least 4 years on a good battery. BTW, the Breva has the MPH startus interruptus kit. Works a charm.
Ralph
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Sounds like a charging system problem we had on a 2013 v7.New rectifier was the fix.
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Sounds like a charging system problem we had on a 2013 v7.New rectifier was the fix.
Wasn't the usual problem with the 2013's (and 14's) OVERcharging?
You're not wrong that could kill batteries too.
OP - if you haven't it would be smart to perform a running voltage output check (meter across battery terminals, rev bike into operating range, make sure voltage is 13.something to 14.something range. Some say 15 V is ok sometimes, but that's getting high. 15+ will kill a battery over time.
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Wasn't the usual problem with the 2013's (and 14's) OVERcharging?
You're not wrong that could kill batteries too.
OP - if you haven't it would be smart to perform a running voltage output check (meter across battery terminals, rev bike into operating range, make sure voltage is 13.something to 14.something range. Some say 15 V is ok sometimes, but that's getting high. 15+ will kill a battery over time.
Good point Kev. My Breva sits around 14.2-14.4 on a fully charged battery. I don't ever remember the Brevas having the overcharge problem but it is worth looking at. If the battery is partly discharged the charging voltage will be a bit less.
I have only used wet cell batteries; I got 7 years out of the two Yuasa ones, and four years and counting out of the Chinese cheapie in it at the moment. I don't use a tender, but every three weeks put it on my 3.5 amp smart charger and bring it back up. I think overall it is better for the battery, but that is just my opinion. The startus interuptus kit had not been fitted with the previous two batteries, so may have got a bit more life if it had been.
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Update:
- New battery has arrived, I charged it overnight and installed it.
- Re-tried with new charged battery, and I hear the same 'click'. :(
- Starter motor does not turn at all, just 'click', 'click'.
- BTW, this is with the direct connection from positive of battery to the starter relay positive terminal ( i.e., the starter interrupt fix in place ).
- Voltage levels at the starter relay is 12.01V.
So, given that the new battery did not turn on starter motor,
- What is the next check that I should do ?
I have double checked that all fuses are good.
1. Someone here said it could be the RPM sensor. Where is located, and how do I confirm if that is good or bad?
2. Since the voltage at the output of starter relay is 12.01V, that means the relay is putting out power to the starter motor, but still the starter motor does not turn. So, I suspect something wrong with starter motor. Which I will try to check next. But I do not know the connections/voltage level/operation of solenoid.
How do I check if the solenoid is working properly?
Thanks.
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If you have 12v at the starter motor and it doesn't spin then that's your problem. Could be brushes or windings?
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Do you have at least 12V at the starter solenoid when you hit the start button? Do you hear the starter solenoid click, or just the starter relay?
If you hear the solenoid click, then you are getting power to it. You could then try giving the starter a good rap on the side of it with a hammer while trying to crank it.
If you don't hear the solenoid click, (Warning....Make Sure Bike Is In Neutral!!!) you could take a wire about 14ga and touch the positive battery terminal with one end and the other end to the starter solenoid connector. Still no click, could be a bad starter?
You have 2 issues going on. It wont crank and it stalls. They may be related to each other. The starter could be good, but you have a bad ground from the battery negative to the engine or frame.
Let us know about the voltage and click.
Tom
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If you have 12v at the starter motor and it doesn't spin then that's your problem. Could be brushes or windings?
I have yet to measure voltage at the starter motor. I have measured at the output of relay ( and it shows 12.01V ). Where does the output of relay connect to?
I am guessing it connects to the input of solenoid ?
( I need to study the terminals connections to the motor and solenoid to understand this circuit, I need to also remove the metal covering to be able to access all the connections in the motor and starter circuit it seems )
Thanks.
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Do you have at least 12V at the starter solenoid when you hit the start button? Do you hear the starter solenoid click, or just the starter relay?
If you hear the solenoid click, then you are getting power to it. You could then try giving the starter a good rap on the side of it with a hammer while trying to crank it.
If you don't hear the solenoid click, (Warning....Make Sure Bike Is In Neutral!!!) you could take a wire about 14ga and touch the positive battery terminal with one end and the other end to the starter solenoid connector. Still no click, could be a bad starter?
You have 2 issues going on. It wont crank and it stalls. They may be related to each other. The starter could be good, but you have a bad ground from the battery negative to the engine or frame.
Let us know about the voltage and click.
Tom
I can hear just hear the starter relay 'click'.
Should I be hearing solenoid 'click' as well ? I don't think I can hear solenoid 'click', but I will double check on that.
( Looks like metal cover needs to be removed, as I found these connections are buried behind the metal cover. )
Thanks.
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Do you have at least 12V at the starter solenoid when you hit the start button? Do you hear the starter solenoid click, or just the starter relay?
If you hear the solenoid click, then you are getting power to it. You could then try giving the starter a good rap on the side of it with a hammer while trying to crank it.
If you don't hear the solenoid click, (Warning....Make Sure Bike Is In Neutral!!!) you could take a wire about 14ga and touch the positive battery terminal with one end and the other end to the starter solenoid connector. Still no click, could be a bad starter?
You have 2 issues going on. It wont crank and it stalls. They may be related to each other. The starter could be good, but you have a bad ground from the battery negative to the engine or frame.
Let us know about the voltage and click.
Tom
When I hit the solenoid gently with plastic hammer, while pressing the 'Start' button, it started cranking.
I did this few times and it cranked.
Also connected a piece of wire to the small wire at solenoid and measured voltage while pressing 'Start' button.
The voltage showed 11.26V at fully charged battery. While voltage directly at the battery shows 13.1/13.2V.
It seems to me even 11.26V is sufficient enough to get the crank, provided solenoid is hit gently with plastic hammer.
So, some connection inside solenoid is lose/bad, since hitting on it gets the crank going ?
Will it need to be replaced ? just the solenoid or the entire assembly ?
Thanks.
since it is old bike, seems like there is bad electrical connection inside solenoid somewhere.
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It looks like your getting somewhere at least on the cranking issue. A rap or two to the solenoid and it at least spun the starter.
Without knowing your exact starter, you may be able to get a solenoid. You might check to see if you have a starter and generator repair place near you. They might be able to tell you whats wrong and how much to fix it. A starter for a big block for instance can be had on the rain forest for about $80, just to give you a price reference. Heck, you might be able to tear down your solenoid and clean it?? A Bosch solenoid for instance can be opened up and cleaned.
But.... Before we go to the above. Could the rap with a hammer be shaking a corroded or loose wire???????? Might look for a corroded or loose ground wire. Look for a wire that looks white and puffy near the connector. Also might loosen the starter mounting bolts, wiggle the starter and tighten the bolts. Sometimes it's that simple??
Tom
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It looks like your getting somewhere at least on the cranking issue. A rap or two to the solenoid and it at least spun the starter.
Without knowing your exact starter, you may be able to get a solenoid. You might check to see if you have a starter and generator repair place near you. They might be able to tell you whats wrong and how much to fix it. A starter for a big block for instance can be had on the rain forest for about $80, just to give you a price reference. Heck, you might be able to tear down your solenoid and clean it?? A Bosch solenoid for instance can be opened up and cleaned.
But.... Before we go to the above. Could the rap with a hammer be shaking a corroded or loose wire???????? Might look for a corroded or loose ground wire. Look for a wire that looks white and puffy near the connector. Also might loosen the starter mounting bolts, wiggle the starter and tighten the bolts. Sometimes it's that simple??
Tom
Ok, got it.
Will update upon more investigation/tries.
I am worried about less 12V coming in at the solenoid though.
I do know how to increase this voltage to 12V./What could be causing drop in voltage. The battery is new and fully charged.
Meanwhile def will follow/try as per your ideas above..
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When I had relay problems I carried a wire with a Lucar clip on one end, took the feed from the relay off and just flashed my wire directly on to the battery.
You could try that; if it fires up straight away I would then suspect something in the relay. If it carries on with it's no crank problem it sounds as though the solenoid is suss, and I would suspect it would be the contact inside it. They do have to cope with a large current.
I did have a problem some years ago when my Breva did that, and it was a bit unusual. It just clicked but the headlight would dim noticeably. Inside the starter motor itself there is a metal shroud that fill the gap between the windings and the brushes. This had come loose, and had worn through the shellac on the windings, resulting in a rather large short. I took it out and threw it away, working on the principle that I may have to clean up the brushes and the com occasionally. Haven't needed to yet in about 25,000 miles. Why they didn't make it out of nylon or similar I have no idea.
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It looks like your getting somewhere at least on the cranking issue. A rap or two to the solenoid and it at least spun the starter.
Without knowing your exact starter, you may be able to get a solenoid. You might check to see if you have a starter and generator repair place near you. They might be able to tell you whats wrong and how much to fix it. A starter for a big block for instance can be had on the rain forest for about $80, just to give you a price reference. Heck, you might be able to tear down your solenoid and clean it?? A Bosch solenoid for instance can be opened up and cleaned.
But.... Before we go to the above. Could the rap with a hammer be shaking a corroded or loose wire???????? Might look for a corroded or loose ground wire. Look for a wire that looks white and puffy near the connector. Also might loosen the starter mounting bolts, wiggle the starter and tighten the bolts. Sometimes it's that simple??
Tom
Hurray !
Got the solenoid to crank without having to tap with small hammer !
It was general cleanup from inside of starter-solenoid assembly that worked.
There was about 18yrs old dirt/gum inside, that I cleaned, lubed the mechanical gear a bit, cleaned electrical surfaces and such..and that was it pretty much.
BTW, it is not Bosch starter-solenoid assembly, it is some name starting with 'V', and is made in France.
I have yet to connect the connection wire to motor, when I decided I want to take a tea/coffee break..Ah..finally.
I can't wait to make the final connections, install bolts, tidy up..and get the bike started..
So, thank you everyone here for all of your inputs/help ! Very much appreciate that. :thumb:
As for the original engine stall, any ideas how to test that ? I am thinking I will just drive around the block many times, staying close to home and see if
bike runs without stalling.
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Congrats on hopefully getting the starter to reliably crank. Sounds like 1 issue is taken care of.
From the way I read your description of what you did as in cleaning the wires up a bit. I would strongly recommend cleaning up the battery grounds to frame and or engine and pull each relay out one at a time and give the prongs a good cleaning.
Then you need to test ride it and see if the stall issue is solved. Close to home is best. If it still has the stall issue you may need to try to move for instance the side stand up and down and see what the result is. For instance, lets say you hit a bump and the bike stalls, could be the stand switch is not adjusted properly. Intermittent electrical problems are the worst to diagnose. Take your time and give as much info as possible and maybe we can help.
Tom
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If you have 12v at the starter motor and it doesn't spin then that's your problem. Could be brushes or windings?
Update:
1. I spoke too soon when I said the problem was solved.
2. I came back to square one, after re-installing all the connections to starter motor. i.e. no solenoid click, (& no motor spin ), only click at relay.
3. Then I checked that solenoid does click by itself, but not when power to starter motor is connected.
4. Main thing is starter motor does not spin with12V applied directly from battery. So I removed the motor/opened it up, and its all dry/dried old grease, jammed everywhere ! ( it is ~15year old starter motor )
5. AT this point I am pretty sure, solenoid is ok, but motor is not.
6. Next, going to clean motor, check and replace brushes, lube, then re-try.
7. Resistance at the winding of motor shows about 2-Ohms. Which I am assuming to be within spec, but I do not know for sure.
At least winding is not open circuit.
8. Not sure if they sell the motor by itself, if yes, maybe I would consider replacing if the winding etc. is damaged beyond repair/restore.
Thanks.
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EDIT... I put the cart before the horse I think...... You said you have the starter fully disassembled I believe. I would clean it all up especially the copper on the armature where the brushes ride. Some fine sandpaper will clean this up as well as the contact area of the brushes. When you reassemble, make sure the brushes are being help firmly by the springs to the armature. Then.........
You can take a known good battery and automotive class jumper cables and try to spin the starter with the starter removed from the bike. Hook the cable from battery negative to the mounting flange of the stater. Hook the positive cable to the battery and touch it to the large wire that enters the starter. This should make it spin. You can also check the solenoid and starter the same way. The difference would be that you connect the positive to the lug on the solenoid, the one the bike battery is connected to, and then take a screwdriver or the like to go from the cable to the little start wire tab on the solenoid. This will show that both work or not.
The starter may jump around a bit. Best to test with it clamped in a vice. Lacking the vise, just be ready for it to move a bit. Testing it this way also eliminates any issues with wires on the bike. If it doesn't sound like it spinning like a banshee, but just slowly turning then it is most likely bad.
If it fails, take a do a search on fleabay or the rain forest for a starter. You should be able to find one for about $80 or so. As I mentioned, you could also check for a re builder in your area to make sure it's bad. If you don't mind a used one, give Mark at Moto Guzzi Classics a call, he might have one.
Tom
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EDIT... I put the cart before the horse I think...... You said you have the starter fully disassembled I believe. I would clean it all up especially the copper on the armature where the brushes ride. Some fine sandpaper will clean this up as well as the contact area of the brushes. When you reassemble, make sure the brushes are being help firmly by the springs to the armature. Then.........
You can take a known good battery and automotive class jumper cables and try to spin the starter with the starter removed from the bike. Hook the cable from battery negative to the mounting flange of the stater. Hook the positive cable to the battery and touch it to the large wire that enters the starter. This should make it spin. You can also check the solenoid and starter the same way. The difference would be that you connect the positive to the lug on the solenoid, the one the bike battery is connected to, and then take a screwdriver or the like to go from the cable to the little start wire tab on the solenoid. This will show that both work or not.
The starter may jump around a bit. Best to test with it clamped in a vice. Lacking the vise, just be ready for it to move a bit. Testing it this way also eliminates any issues with wires on the bike. If it doesn't sound like it spinning like a banshee, but just slowly turning then it is most likely bad.
If it fails, take a do a search on fleabay or the rain forest for a starter. You should be able to find one for about $80 or so. As I mentioned, you could also check for a re builder in your area to make sure it's bad. If you don't mind a used one, give Mark at Moto Guzzi Classics a call, he might have one.
Tom
Thanks for your inputs/suggestions.
So far, It looks like one of the brushes is worn out ( The other seems ok ).
I could not find new set of brushes for this Valeo starter, of even a close one ( which I would file to closely match the shape of original ).
Closest I could find was a full brush assembly ( but I am hesitant spend that much just on the brush assembly, when I could spend some more and buy a *whole* starter assembly new online ). So decided to give the original brushes another try, since when I took them brushes out, there seems enough material left.
The worn out brush falls short to reach to the copper surface on Armature, partly due to its jammed, partly because it is worn out.
Decided to free up the movement of both brushes, and also will be creating more back pressure on the worn out brush by inserting a small piece of insulating material between worn out brush and the spring. ( So that it makes good/firm contact with copper surface at the Armature ).
I suspect the contact of the worn out brush was intermittent and also not firm enough.
I will be testing this setup soon..lets see...
PS: And oh yeah, the Allen bolts at the solenoid are so tight that I could not take them apart so far. I am hesitant to apply heat just yet/unless need to open up solenoid is a must. I will see about that later..
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EDIT... I put the cart before the horse I think...... You said you have the starter fully disassembled I believe. I would clean it all up especially the copper on the armature where the brushes ride. Some fine sandpaper will clean this up as well as the contact area of the brushes. When you reassemble, make sure the brushes are being help firmly by the springs to the armature. Then.........
You can take a known good battery and automotive class jumper cables and try to spin the starter with the starter removed from the bike. Hook the cable from battery negative to the mounting flange of the stater. Hook the positive cable to the battery and touch it to the large wire that enters the starter. This should make it spin. You can also check the solenoid and starter the same way. The difference would be that you connect the positive to the lug on the solenoid, the one the bike battery is connected to, and then take a screwdriver or the like to go from the cable to the little start wire tab on the solenoid. This will show that both work or not.
The starter may jump around a bit. Best to test with it clamped in a vice. Lacking the vise, just be ready for it to move a bit. Testing it this way also eliminates any issues with wires on the bike. If it doesn't sound like it spinning like a banshee, but just slowly turning then it is most likely bad.
If it fails, take a do a search on fleabay or the rain forest for a starter. You should be able to find one for about $80 or so. As I mentioned, you could also check for a re builder in your area to make sure it's bad. If you don't mind a used one, give Mark at Moto Guzzi Classics a call, he might have one.
Tom
As for new starter, I was able to find a new one online somewhere, and keeping that as my backup plan, if all else fails.
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Brushes, check your starter model number and look at the pic, if not the right one, search there. Euro Moto Electrics can be your friend for odd electric parts.
https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/val-brushes.htm
And from Stein Dinse for comparison, look at the models it fits:
https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?language=sc&products_id=22757
And a complete starter, no idea of the quality, check your fitment:
https://www.amazon.com/STARTER-MOTOR-2007-2008-30730710-LRS01550/dp/B013SG8WCU
Tom
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Brushes, check your starter model number and look at the pic, if not the right one, search there. Euro Moto Electrics can be your friend for odd electric parts.
https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/val-brushes.htm
>> Yes !
>> This is the brushes that would fit/was looking for,
>> *out of stock* unfortunately.
And from Stein Dinse for comparison, look at the models it fits:
https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?language=sc&products_id=22757
And a complete starter, no idea of the quality, check your fitment:
https://www.amazon.com/STARTER-MOTOR-2007-2008-30730710-LRS01550/dp/B013SG8WCU
Tom
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Unrelated, and hope the OP gets this sorted, but what would cause the Hazard warning switch light to stay lit?
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Unrelated, and hope the OP gets this sorted, but what would cause the Hazard warning switch light to stay lit?
( Not that I know much about this topic ):
Sometimes the switch gets stuck from very staying unused for very long time/rarely. I would double check if the switch is operating properly, i.e.
does it get into off position physically after turning it off?
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EDIT... I put the cart before the horse I think...... You said you have the starter fully disassembled I believe. I would clean it all up especially the copper on the armature where the brushes ride. Some fine sandpaper will clean this up as well as the contact area of the brushes. When you reassemble, make sure the brushes are being help firmly by the springs to the armature. Then.........
You can take a known good battery and automotive class jumper cables and try to spin the starter with the starter removed from the bike. Hook the cable from battery negative to the mounting flange of the stater. Hook the positive cable to the battery and touch it to the large wire that enters the starter. This should make it spin. You can also check the solenoid and starter the same way. The difference would be that you connect the positive to the lug on the solenoid, the one the bike battery is connected to, and then take a screwdriver or the like to go from the cable to the little start wire tab on the solenoid. This will show that both work or not.
The starter may jump around a bit. Best to test with it clamped in a vice. Lacking the vise, just be ready for it to move a bit. Testing it this way also eliminates any issues with wires on the bike. If it doesn't sound like it spinning like a banshee, but just slowly turning then it is most likely bad.
If it fails, take a do a search on fleabay or the rain forest for a starter. You should be able to find one for about $80 or so. As I mentioned, you could also check for a re builder in your area to make sure it's bad. If you don't mind a used one, give Mark at Moto Guzzi Classics a call, he might have one.
Tom
The motor finally spins ! yay !
( This is with existing brushes, cleanup, and increasing back pressure on more-worn-out brush, and directly connected to battery, without solenoid )
The speed of spin seems rapid/normal ( and not slow/weak )
Will be trying with solenoid next..
Thanks.
P.S.: Also now there is decreased resistance value measured from positive to ground of motor.
Previously, value of resistance was more ( indicating poor connection/worn brush/dirty copper surface at Armature )
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:thumb: :thumb:
But....You have made it work for now, but you really new to search out a new set of brushes. Google the starter brand and part number and include brushes. I found a few places that sell them.
Install your solenoid. Make sure that the whole thing works. You may end up needing a solenoid as well. Might as well get both at the same time...........PROV IDED you need both.
Hopefully this will get it cranking reliably. Then move on to solve your running issue!
Tom
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:thumb: :thumb:
But....You have made it work for now, but you really new to search out a new set of brushes. Google the starter brand and part number and include brushes. I found a few places that sell them.
Install your solenoid. Make sure that the whole thing works. You may end up needing a solenoid as well. Might as well get both at the same time...........PROV IDED you need both.
Hopefully this will get it cranking reliably. Then move on to solve your running issue!
Tom
Put back together and it cranks like a Tiger !
Yay !
Cranked few times, every time it works./cranks solid.
Will be taking for test ride soon, being careful not to wander off far..let’s see..
Thanks.
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:thumb: :thumb:
But....You have made it work for now, but you really new to search out a new set of brushes. Google the starter brand and part number and include brushes. I found a few places that sell them.
Install your solenoid. Make sure that the whole thing works. You may end up needing a solenoid as well. Might as well get both at the same time...........PROV IDED you need both.
Hopefully this will get it cranking reliably. Then move on to solve your running issue!
Tom
Took it out for test runs and results look good so far.
Cranked strongly every time, ran each time without any problems. ( relief )
Also, at about 3k rpm, charging voltage is about 13.2V/13.5V, which seems good.
Actually I am a bit surprised that it cranked at all before the repair, it was so dirty/jammed/rusty inside the starter.
Thanks.
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Congrats! Hopefully your cleaning to get the starter to work maybe also fixed your other issue!
Tom
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https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_750_Breva.gif
I would guess something wrong with the engine position sensor item 2
it's not sensing that the engine is rotating
You can add a light to the injection relay
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I was thinking about your charging voltage. I think it's a little low. I think it S/B about 14 - 14.5V.
The low voltage could be just normal or it could be an issue. You could check the wire connectors to the regulator and clean them. Could help?
Something to think about. Let's say it's not charging enough to keep up with the usage. The bike could cut out due to a low battery. There is an odd thing about, at least some, automotive style batteries. If you ran a battery down trying to get something to start, then let the battery rest. Many times you can get it to give a good crank again after letting it rest for let's just say 20 minutes.
This is sorta like your description of when your bike stalled and wouldn't crank. Low battery, let sit, starts then it runs out of enough battery power and stalls again. If the battery was getting a good charge while the engine was running, it wouldn't run out of enough power to at least power the ignition system.
You have at least overcome the crank issue!! On to the running issue!!
Tom
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I was thinking about your charging voltage. I think it's a little low. I think it S/B about 14 - 14.5V.
>> I don't think I have ever seen voltage in the range of 14 - 14.5V on this bike.
So, this may be the problem.
The low voltage could be just normal or it could be an issue. You could check the wire connectors to the regulator and clean them. Could help?
>> Ok. Will try to check/clean those wires.
Something to think about. Let's say it's not charging enough to keep up with the usage. The bike could cut out due to a low battery. There is an odd thing about, at least some, automotive style batteries. If you ran a battery down trying to get something to start, then let the battery rest. Many times you can get it to give a good crank again after letting it rest for let's just say 20 minutes.
This is sorta like your description of when your bike stalled and wouldn't crank. Low battery, let sit, starts then it runs out of enough battery power and stalls again. If the battery was getting a good charge while the engine was running, it wouldn't run out of enough power to at least power the ignition system.
>> Yup. Except that now it has a cleaned up starter with brushes with good contact, so even with low battery it is able to crank/keep running, I think.
But def. want to check on voltage regulator situation..
You have at least overcome the crank issue!! On to the running issue!!
>> Yes, it was some work, but kind of worth it. It was hard to decide to try repair or just buy a new one. Thanks.
Tom
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It was probably mentioned & I missed it . A voltage drop test on the cables may help too , ya can have volts but ya gotta get the amps too !
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I was thinking about your charging voltage. I think it's a little low. I think it S/B about 14 - 14.5V.
The low voltage could be just normal or it could be an issue. You could check the wire connectors to the regulator and clean them. Could help?
Something to think about. Let's say it's not charging enough to keep up with the usage. The bike could cut out due to a low battery. There is an odd thing about, at least some, automotive style batteries. If you ran a battery down trying to get something to start, then let the battery rest. Many times you can get it to give a good crank again after letting it rest for let's just say 20 minutes.
This is sorta like your description of when your bike stalled and wouldn't crank. Low battery, let sit, starts then it runs out of enough battery power and stalls again. If the battery was getting a good charge while the engine was running, it wouldn't run out of enough power to at least power the ignition system.
You have at least overcome the crank issue!! On to the running issue!!
Tom
So, far I have completed around 8 test runs, and never had starting/cranking or stalling issue.
It seems to be resolved after I repaired the brushes & cleaned inside the starter motor.
Thank you.
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I think the combination of high resistance in the start circuit along with short trips with multiple starts was pulling the battery down faster than it could recharge. It becomes a vicious cycle as cranking a starter on low voltage will cause excessive arcing at the brushes and ever increasing resistance in the circuit due to carbon build up on the armature and the brush keepers. When the battery reserves drop below where the charging system can compensate at idle the bike quits. A tender is your friend with occasional use or short trips. Good work men!
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I think the combination of high resistance in the start circuit along with short trips with multiple starts was pulling the battery down faster than it could recharge. It becomes a vicious cycle as cranking a starter on low voltage will cause excessive arcing at the brushes and ever increasing resistance in the circuit due to carbon build up on the armature and the brush keepers. When the battery reserves drop below where the charging system can compensate at idle the bike quits. A tender is your friend with occasional use or short trips. Good work men!
I think your analysis is accurate.
Thank you all those helped/supported, really appreciate that.