Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Burkslaw on July 14, 2022, 10:22:40 AM
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I agonized for a long time over using sealant to convert spoked rims to tubeless tire use. I finally decided that a sudden, catastrophic deflation and the tire coming off the bead was just as likely whether I had a tube in the tire or not, and decided to trust in the same lucky gods in whom all those who have tried this have entrusted their fate. I used 3M 5200 sealant for a tough seal around each spoke, and then topped it off with a coat of Flex Seal after learned that it has a very high (350 degree F) temp limit. As a final (but unrelated ) safety feature I added the "DO NOT ARREST THIS MAN" sticker to my windshield.
(https://i.ibb.co/0Vg4Vbh/Guzzi-Stone-5200-sealant.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Vg4Vbh)
(https://i.ibb.co/SKZRpFF/Guzzi-Stone-flex-seal.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SKZRpFF)
(https://i.ibb.co/km90hyk/Guzzi-tire-mount.jpg) (https://ibb.co/km90hyk)
(https://i.ibb.co/QQ784Gc/Guzzi-Stone1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QQ784Gc)
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I have wondered how the magical Flex Seal would work on its own for this. Also agree that the missing "bead retention" feature missing on tube type rims does not equal catastrophic failure with a flat. Read on the internet (maybe here) that tubeless flats deflate slower than tube type flats..... FWIW.
Good job. How is it holding up?
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In hundreds of thousands of miles of riding I've been fortunate enough to only have a couple of flats (typing that scares the crap outta me because I now am pretty sure I've jinxed myself).
Anyway, they occurred both on a Guzzi with a tube and a Harley without one.
Both times I continued to ride, some distance (once to a shop, once to a gas station) on the sidewalls.
The time on the Guzzi I was on the highway and didn't know it had gone or was going flat until I hit the off-ramp and the rear of the bike got a bit squiggly (<--- scientific term).
I'm not saying that catastrophic failures can't or don't happen.
BUT I do kinda wonder how much thought M/C tire manufacturers have put into the prevention of such things by developing strong sidewalls that are capable of supporting the motorcycle for at least a short distance after deflation.
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Kev M, I am not even going to comment on your comment. I had my first flat at 300 miles of riding my first road bike.........so I am emotionally scared. Burkslaw, it looks like you did a good job and I think that will likely last a long time. I did an Outex conversion on my rear wheel of my V7III Special, and it leaked a little from day one and got a bit worse over a few months, to the tune of 5lbs a day. I finally dumped a bottle of highway type Slime into it and tried to coat the rim, not just the tire, and it has not leaked in months of thousands of miles. I was lazy and just did a bottle of tube slime in the front in case I get a nail or whatever. I might do it properly eventually. Best of luck with yours.
Scott
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I’m waiting for the 3M 5200 to cure on rims now..
As far as Flex Seal products (in general) some over on the pop-up camper forum that we’re on have used their products and have been extremely unhappy with the brevity of the product function after applied & exposed to the elements. This 3M 5200 was nuts expensive (approx $10/ounce) but it’s 3M. I’m not worried about trusting it to be as good as its supposed to be.
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I think Flex Seal is a lot of hype myself. Properly applied I couldn't get the damn spray to hold a leaky seam on a small 80 gallon water tank.
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I think Flex Seal is a lot of hype myself. Properly applied I couldn't get the damn spray to hold a leaky seam on a small 80 gallon water tank.
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the cheesy ad campaign for Flex Seal, but I figure with 30 (front) -40(rear) PSI pushing it against the rim it probably won't peel off. In the short while after cure and before I mounted the tires, the stuff showed exceptional adherence. And if it does let go, the 3M stuff is still there.
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I have wondered how the magical Flex Seal would work on its own for this. Also agree that the missing "bead retention" feature missing on tube type rims does not equal catastrophic failure with a flat. Read on the internet (maybe here) that tubeless flats deflate slower than tube type flats..... FWIW.
Good job. How is it holding up?
I've only had the rear on for a week and the front for a day but so far no leakage other than 0.1 PSI according to my digital gauge, and I assume that was as a result of checking the pressure.
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Unrelated injection of tidbits.. I had an old Michelin tire on my EV. I replaced it. Just for fun I drilled through the tread with a hole saw just to see how thick the carcass was. I was amazed that it was like 3/4 inch thick! And the tread was 2-3/32nds. Sidewalls were very stiff too. That was a tubeless tire
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I used a kit from a company called OUTEX. I have had 3 flats tubeless and plugged them on the road in my riding history. Also plugged 3 for riding buddies over the years. They were oh so thankful!
Had one flat on a tubed tire and got STRANDED on a Arkansas backroad and it SUCKED! That won't happen again!
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When considering tapes that go over the spoke heads, I always hit a wall on two issues.
One is trying to get the valve to seal over the tape and working against the centrifugal force trying to detach the tape at high rpm rates.
When I reassembled the wheels on my V85, I considered re positioning the valve on the flat portion of the rim between the spoke line and the outer edge, but opted against doing so.
I felt that drilling a hole there could initiate fatigue related cracking with predictable results.
On my Norge I just added sealant to the nipple heads and in conjunction with the o rings, it has never leaked since 2016.
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When considering tapes that go over the spoke heads, I always hit a wall on two issues.
One is trying to get the valve to seal over the tape and working against the centrifugal force trying to detach the tape at high rpm rates.
When I reassembled the wheels on my V85, I considered re positioning the valve on the flat portion of the rim between the spoke line and the outer edge, but opted against doing so.
I felt that drilling a hole there could initiate fatigue related cracking with predictable results.
On my Norge I just added sealant to the nipple heads and in conjunction with the o rings, it has never leaked since 2016.
The outex is much more than just "tape"
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I'm just thumbing a ride on this thread, not (intentionally) hijacking or drifting it. :laugh:
I keep scaring myself into saying I will seal the wheels of my V7's, then, being an expert at cowardice, chicken out. :rolleyes:
But this is a tire thread and includes my wishing I had sealed the Stornello's tires, so that will have to do for now.
So ... here I am in North Carolina. Vic. Raleigh.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9FDnvB3/0/8139ae1d/L/i-9FDnvB3-L.jpg)
Rode the Stornello down to watch one of our grand-girls play in a softball tourney. Great fun.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-c5rT935/0/fb387a54/L/i-c5rT935-L.jpg)
I was going to R&R these tires -- Pirelli Scorpion Trail II's -- when I got back, but, as they had enough life for this 700-mile r/t, off I went. They have, BTW, been just fine on and off pavement.
This morning, however, I saw this.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-jKNxJF6/0/fc1aeaad/L/i-jKNxJF6-L.jpg)
Not sure what that is, but almost looks like an old horseshoe nail. Whatever it is, it seems to have sliced the tire a bit, too.
Anyway, if that were a tubeless tire, given that I have comfortable surroundings, beer available, and a boon companion ...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-xRFHkGb/0/55518137/L/i-xRFHkGb-L.jpg)
... I'd likly just pull that piece out, and if air came out with it, plug & play.
But, with a tube, not. It has not, it seems, entered the tube, or, well, I'd probably know. But neither am I a surgeon who can assure I won't snip an artery when I removed that whateveritis.
My plan is "just ride it." Any thoughts?
Grazie.
Bill
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The outex is much more than just "tape"
Then there’s the thing if you need to adjust or replace a spoke on a standard centreline spoked rim.
Rotating the nipple to adjust or release the spoke will not be good and how do you seal the valve ?
Of course outboard spokes like the new V85’s or BMW’s and the like, are devoid of such issues.
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The best part of the tyre’s life is behind it…
(https://i.ibb.co/HtB0nCv/97-C0-B952-6-AF6-43-A2-98-BC-F78-AA6538-EC9.png) (https://ibb.co/HtB0nCv)
If it were undamaged I’d happily ride it like that, but with about 3,000 miles left, I’d ditch it.
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The best part of the tyre’s life is behind it…
(https://i.ibb.co/HtB0nCv/97-C0-B952-6-AF6-43-A2-98-BC-F78-AA6538-EC9.png) (https://ibb.co/HtB0nCv)
If it were undamaged I’d happily ride it like that, but with about 3,000 miles left, I’d ditch it.
I’m “only” about 350 miles from home, so I’ll likely ride it.
At least it’ll be a Saturday, so shops might be open if things go awry.
And, the closer to home I get, the le$$ dollars for any over-mileage tow.
Thanks.
Bill
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Pull it before riding or it may cut through and be a flat. If it had entered the tube that tire would be flat! Pull it out before riding!
Brian
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I would not ride that tire. Hit one bump and you could puncture the tube and have instant flat. A tube can go flat in a blink of the eye. I had a blow out going about 30 and squirmed a bit before getting thrown off.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Trail-90/i-CNKR9Xn/0/9180f686/S/2020101611332684--4392817855578037898-IMG_1672-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Trail-90/i-CNKR9Xn/A)
I’ve had same with a tubeless and easily coasted to the side of the highway, plugged it and on the way I went. Tubeless do deflate slower.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Buell/i-jxgtHVP/0/581b3f22/Th/IMG_0501_zps0dcafe1d-Th.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Buell/i-jxgtHVP/A)
Not pretty but got me off the freeway.
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https://ibb.co/VN1Pw09
My 2001 Stone now wears a pair of tubeless wheels from a 1998 EV.
It was pretty much a plug and play swap and left me feeling more confident than attempting to seal my original steel rims, that were pretty corroded in the spoke attachment area of the rim.
Touring holidays in Europe always made me nervous, as repairing a puncture could be a big deal on a fully loaded bike, particularly with my wife riding pillion. Recovery to a workshop, wheel removal, foreign languages, etc.
Knowing that I can now probably make an acceptable repair in about 10-15 minutes and continue my journey justifies the time and expense of swapping my wheels.
It is often the case that a nail or screw puncturing a tyre is retained in the tread and doesn't cause a catastrophic loss of pressure in a tubeless version, however the same can rarely be said of a tubed type. It must therefore be considered as safer too!
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I'm just thumbing a ride on this thread, not (intentionally) hijacking or drifting it. :laugh:
I keep scaring myself into saying I will seal the wheels of my V7's, then, being an expert at cowardice, chicken out. :rolleyes:
But this is a tire thread and includes my wishing I had sealed the Stornello's tires, so that will have to do for now.
So ... here I am in North Carolina. Vic. Raleigh.
<pic snipped>
Rode the Stornello down to watch one of our grand-girls play in a softball tourney. Great fun.
<pic snipped>
I was going to R&R these tires -- Pirelli Scorpion Trail II's -- when I got back, but, as they had enough life for this 700-mile r/t, off I went. They have, BTW, been just fine on and off pavement.
This morning, however, I saw this.
<pic snipped>
Not sure what that is, but almost looks like an old horseshoe nail. Whatever it is, it seems to have sliced the tire a bit, too.
Anyway, if that were a tubeless tire, given that I have comfortable surroundings, beer available, and a boon companion ...
<pic snipped>
... I'd likly just pull that piece out, and if air came out with it, plug & play.
But, with a tube, not. It has not, it seems, entered the tube, or, well, I'd probably know. But neither am I a surgeon who can assure I won't snip an artery when I removed that whateveritis.
My plan is "just ride it." Any thoughts?
Grazie.
Bill
I want to thank everyone who replied here for their kind, thoughtful, wise, and common-sense counsel about my tire. :bow:
The clear consensus was to fuggetaboutit and not risk disaster. :violent1:
:popcorn:
Naturally, I rode it home. :rolleyes:
Seriously, with the help of my Polish Princess and Perfect Pillion, I did try to get at that whatever-it-was, but the head “powdered” and I did not want to dig deeper.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Zb5CWwm/0/e5ded788/L/i-Zb5CWwm-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-SPcQ7ss/0/5d80234d/L/i-SPcQ7ss-L.jpg)
Despite my Civil War level of moto-medical surgical technique, the tire did not lose air overnight.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-jdrPB6s/0/9936cf1d/L/i-jdrPB6s-L.jpg)
So, off I went.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-HHTfB3X/0/7cc5b252/L/i-HHTfB3X-L.png)
I did maintain a more sedate pace than I usually do, and checked on the tire at frequent stops.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-PvtXChQ/0/6300d04c/L/i-PvtXChQ-L.jpg)
I was happy to get to the Virginia luncheon in Stuarts Draft without incident.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-TGQz5jK/0/5e684726/L/i-TGQz5jK-L.jpg)
And, even happier to get home to the Moto Grappa on the Stornello’s saddle, not in a tow truck’s cab … or worse.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-5R4PCbM/0/4f9156d7/L/i-5R4PCbM-L.jpg)
Here’s what the tire looked like after those additional 330 or so miles.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-jFkQpCg/0/6675d40e/L/i-jFkQpCg-L.jpg)
Again, many thanks for the comments. I was not as cavalier about the return as I may make it sound here. I was also very happy to be wearing my Helite vest “just in case.”
I'll pull both tires soon and "detube" those wheels. :thumb:
Bill
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In hundreds of thousands of miles of riding I've been fortunate enough to only have a couple of flats (typing that scares the crap outta me because I now am pretty sure I've jinxed myself).
Anyway, they occurred both on a Guzzi with a tube and a Harley without one.
Both times I continued to ride, some distance (once to a shop, once to a gas station) on the sidewalls.
The time on the Guzzi I was on the highway and didn't know it had gone or was going flat until I hit the off-ramp and the rear of the bike got a bit squiggly (<--- scientific term).
I'm not saying that catastrophic failures can't or don't happen.
BUT I do kinda wonder how much thought M/C tire manufacturers have put into the prevention of such things by developing strong sidewalls that are capable of supporting the motorcycle for at least a short distance after deflation.
Kev,
Do you recall whether the two tires were bias or radial?
Reportedly bias ply has stiffer sidewalls. I've ridden a bias at low speed back home on little air, when I was caught low. Fortunately it was just a few miles on back roads.
Joe
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Then there’s the thing if you need to adjust or replace a spoke on a standard centreline spoked rim.
Rotating the nipple to adjust or release the spoke will not be good and how do you seal the valve ?
Of course outboard spokes like the new V85’s or BMW’s and the like, are devoid of such issues.
Then there’s the thing if you need to adjust or replace a spoke on a standard centreline spoked rim.
Rotating the nipple to adjust or release the spoke will not be good and how do you seal the valve ?
It's in the instructions with the kit. If I explained, you would just disagree anyway <shrug>
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I have about 500,000 miles on motorcycles. All on a mix of tube and tubeless tires. I have had a LOT of flat tires over the years. A lot.
Anyone that thinks a tubeless tire can't go flat in an instant is a fool. I have had two tubeless tire flats that blew out amazingly fast. One was a large unknow object on the rear of my Centauro at 'hyper legal' speed on I-85 in heavy traffic. The other was on the rear of the Stelvio when an odd shaped rock (on the pavement) punched a large hole in the rear tire. Both caused me to almost go down.
The flats I have had on tube tires where all slower leaks.
Obviously, a tube tire can go flat fast too, just don't for a second think that tubeless is a magical fix.
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When I got my new R75/5 one of the features explained to me was that it had natural rubber inner tubes. These resisted tearing as opposed to the more common synthetic rubber tubes. This was supposed to help prevent rapid loss of air pressure. Anyone else familiar with this?
kk
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I have about 500,000 miles on motorcycles. All on a mix of tube and tubeless tires. I have had a LOT of flat tires over the years. A lot.
Anyone that thinks a tubeless tire can't go flat in an instant is a fool. I have had two tubeless tire flats that blew out amazingly fast. One was a large unknow object on the rear of my Centauro at 'hyper legal' speed on I-85 in heavy traffic. The other was on the rear of the Stelvio when an odd shaped rock (on the pavement) punched a large hole in the rear tire. Both caused me to almost go down.
The flats I have had on tube tires where all slower leaks.
Obviously, a tube tire can go flat fast too, just don't for a second think that tubeless is a magical fix.
Absolutely 👍
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Then there’s the thing if you need to adjust or replace a spoke on a standard centreline spoked rim.
Rotating the nipple to adjust or release the spoke will not be good and how do you seal the valve ?
It's in the instructions with the kit. If I explained, you would just disagree anyway <shrug>
Many aftermarket valves come with o-rings that seal the deal after installing. I actually currently have a "loose" valve (as in, not cemented down with sealant) on one of my wheels now; I decided to try it out after I went from a tubed to a tubeless tire, which meant I went from one valve to another. It even rotates, and it's not losing air.
Regarding spoke nipples--if you put sticker dots on the ends, you'll be able to adjust the spoke tension (the nipple will break from the sticker adhesive, and there's usually not enough sealant that seeped in during drying.
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For me going tubeless less about safety and more about getting back on the road. Removing the wheel, breaking the bead and doing a tube repair/replacement road or trail slide sucks whereas plugging a tubeless is relatively easy. There's always the exception where the tubeless tire is FUBAR but you're calling for a trailer at that point anyway.
As far as tightening/replacing a spoke goes, I haven't had to do that on a street bike since I don't know when. Dirt bike is a different story with the constant pounding.
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For me going tubeless less about safety and more about getting back on the road. Removing the wheel, breaking the bead and doing a tube repair/replacement road or trail slide sucks whereas plugging a tubeless is relatively easy. There's always the exception where the tubeless tire is FUBAR but you're calling for a trailer at that point anyway.
As far as tightening/replacing a spoke goes, I haven't had to do that on a street bike since I don't know when. Dirt bike is a different story with the constant pounding.
Exactly.
:bow:
Bill
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I have about 500,000 miles on motorcycles. All on a mix of tube and tubeless tires. I have had a LOT of flat tires over the years. A lot.
Anyone that thinks a tubeless tire can't go flat in an instant is a fool. I have had two tubeless tire flats that blew out amazingly fast. One was a large unknow object on the rear of my Centauro at 'hyper legal' speed on I-85 in heavy traffic. The other was on the rear of the Stelvio when an odd shaped rock (on the pavement) punched a large hole in the rear tire. Both caused me to almost go down.
The flats I have had on tube tires where all slower leaks.
Obviously, a tube tire can go flat fast too, just don't for a second think that tubeless is a magical fix.
I understand that tubeless isn't magic, but what are your thoughts on converting tube wheels to tubeless? Worth it or not?
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For me going tubeless less about safety and more about getting back on the road. Removing the wheel, breaking the bead and doing a tube repair/replacement road or trail slide sucks whereas plugging a tubeless is relatively easy. There's always the exception where the tubeless tire is FUBAR but you're calling for a trailer at that point anyway.
As far as tightening/replacing a spoke goes, I haven't had to do that on a street bike since I don't know when. Dirt bike is a different story with the constant pounding.
ZACKLY! :thumb:
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I understand that tubeless isn't magic, but what are your thoughts on converting tube wheels to tubeless? Worth it or not?
When I replaced the tires on the V85TT, I thought about the conversion. But then, I just replaced the tires and tubes and went riding.
I had better things to do at the time.
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If I explained, you would just disagree anyway <shrug>
Well…
Not if it made sense :popcorn:
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Feeling (only somewhat) guilty for causing some thread drift — that got little traction anyway (NPI, but noted :wink:) — I’ll get back to what I think was the OP’s original intent.
I am now committed — and likely will be committed before this saga ends — to sealing the Stornello’s wheels and, if successful, will also do the III’s.
I have read enough of the various threads on this here and elsewhere to make my eyeballs melt and dribble down my cheeks! Opinions, navels, etc., but all good stuff … and I appreciate the trouble folks went to reporting their experiences. This thread, https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=102083.0, was especially helpful, but many others out there.
So, here are my additional questions/concerns, as I did not see — but, of course, may have missed because of the seemingly endless volume of material — any mention of these two products:
https://tinyurl.com/3M-4000-UV-05280
https://tinyurl.com/Wheel-Sealing-Tape
After looking at 3M’s application matrix, it seemed to me that, despite all the mention of 5200 and 4200, the 4000 was the best for sealing to metal. It’s flexible and waterproof, too.
All tape seems to be insurance in the apparently rare (but it happens) cases of a nipple leaking. I think I want one-inch width, and this seems fine, tho the “permanent” part made me wonder. 3M 4011 is double-sided; I could not find 3M 4012 on the web. In the interest of full disclosure, I will confess to using bourbon as a search tool, so it is not impossible that I missed it! :boozing:
[Edited to add that I just found this: https://tinyurl.com/3M-ES-Tape-4411N (https://tinyurl.com/3M-ES-Tape-4411N) on Amazon. I'll see how the stuff I ordered -- https://tinyurl.com/Wheel-Sealing-Tape -- looks, then may use it or order the 3M.]
I look forward to (most of) your comments. :rolleyes:
Thanks.
Bill
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When considering tapes that go over the spoke heads, I always hit a wall on two issues.
One is trying to get the valve to seal over the tape and working against the centrifugal force trying to detach the tape at high rpm rates.
Huzo,
Don't you worry your pretty little head over your second concern. :wink:
Since the tape has very little mass, the centrifugal force is negligible. Also, while the centrifugal force is trying to separate the tape from the rim, the air pressure inside the tire is forcing the tape into the rim.
Imagine how hard you would have to work to keep a band of tape from collapsing if there were 30psi on the outside of the band, and atmospheric pressure on the inside of the band.
there bigger things to think about while hoisting a few beers.....
like if you had the choice or running into a Roo or a Yowie, which would you prefer? :wink:
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I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread :thumb: Peter