Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: czakky82 on July 18, 2022, 04:04:35 PM
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I’m sort of torn between two colors for paint when the time comes for my V7 Sport. The only thing holding me back from the Legnano Green (sic?) is the unavailable color match. However I think I’ve found a decent match and would like some input.
The color is from Hyundai, lime twist (among other names) w9y.
Not to be confused with the Kia: aliens 2 color, which I don’t think is very close.
What say you?
Seems the closest off the shelf commercially available color I’ve seen.
(https://i.ibb.co/9VVqL7K/AA9-E9337-AB44-4915-877-E-460-FC734-D30-C.webp) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Maybe not exact V7 green but after Black I think this the best color Guzzi ever used.
(https://i.ibb.co/f9yqg4Y/919-BE590-169-A-49-E0-822-B-5738-B9-D8-B594.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f9yqg4Y)
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RS Motorcycle paint.
https://www.rsbikepaint.com/en-us/colours.php#makeid=104&modelid=3869&prodyear=1971
UK based business but ship quickly. Not particularly inexpensive (Guzzi content) but not much more if any than same quality US available paints in my experience.
Brian
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I guess one of the things that I like about the Hyundai color is the single stage w/clear of course.
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I’m sort of torn between two colors for paint when the time comes for my V7 Sport. The only thing holding me back from the Legnano Green (sic?) is the unavailable color match. However I think I’ve found a decent match and would like some input.
The color is from Hyundai, lime twist (among other names) w9y.
Not to be confused with the Kia: aliens 2 color, which I don’t think is very close.
What say you?
Seems the closest off the shelf commercially available color I’ve seen.
(https://i.ibb.co/9VVqL7K/AA9-E9337-AB44-4915-877-E-460-FC734-D30-C.webp) (https://imgbb.com/)
Seems too, well, lime green, rather than the weird lizard yellow that described the original Legnano green bicycles made by the Legnano bicycle company in Legnano:
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/gzcAAOSwcjhiSJFR/s-l400.jpg)
It may be that Guzzi's "Legnano green" was always different from the original. Or not. It's beyond me.
Here's a closer match to the bicycle color I think:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.HiH4Dv4hgDxRceL5xlMh0QHaEo%26pid%3DApi&f=1)
:wink:
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Maybe not exact V7 green but after Black I think this the best color Guzzi ever used.
(https://i.ibb.co/f9yqg4Y/919-BE590-169-A-49-E0-822-B-5738-B9-D8-B594.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f9yqg4Y)
best color ever
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Not to change topic too much, but I came across a quote indicating there were two green shades for the V7 Sport's introduction to the U.S. market, "green and lime green":
“Regular” V7 Sports production started in November 1971, with production bikes using a thicker steel-tube frame instead of the chrome-moly tubes found on the Telaio Rosso. Moto Guzzi planned to continue painting the frames red, but a decision was made to finish them in either black or silver. Also, engine cases were now a smooth die cast, and the transmission featured external webbing. According to Falloon, crankshaft and connecting rods were no longer specially polished, and transmission gears were updated to deal with what was a rather fragile gear set in the original. For the U.S. market, the gas tank and toolboxes were finished in red (maroon), green or lime green.
-- Greg Williams, April 2014, "Sex Appeal: 1973 Moto Guzzi V7 Sport." Motorcycle Classics.
https://www.motorcycleclassics.com/classic-italian-motorcycles/moto-guzzi-v7-sport-zmwz14mjzmw/ (https://www.motorcycleclassics.com/classic-italian-motorcycles/moto-guzzi-v7-sport-zmwz14mjzmw/)
I am beginning to wonder if Guzzi ever officially called one of their colors "Legnano green" back in the day, or if this appellation has been added retrospectively. Anyone have evidence about this from contemporary product listings or publications?
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@Moto, I noticed the separate color listed as well. Was there another green? They show a darker green V7 in Fields’ book but it looks like a much fettled bike with different seat and exhaust (from memory).
To further complicate things the “legnano green” never photographs the same twice…
What vehicle is that pictured? Subaru?
I’m not very well versed in cars.
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Maybe not exact V7 green but after Black I think this the best color Guzzi ever used.
(https://i.ibb.co/f9yqg4Y/919-BE590-169-A-49-E0-822-B-5738-B9-D8-B594.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f9yqg4Y)
Always liked that color...with the red frame....including on the vintage models! :thumb: :cool: :boozing: :wink:
(https://i.ibb.co/7ztsjBT/Screen-Shot-2022-07-19-at-7-33-40-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/7ztsjBT)
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JJ, both are great colors but they're not the same. ^^^^
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JJ, both are great colors but they're not the same. ^^^^
OK - noted...Legano Green for the modern model, so what's the name of the green color on vintage V7 Sport then? :huh:
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What vehicle is that pictured? Subaru?
I’m not very well versed in cars.
Yes Subaru Crosstrek.
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OK - noted...Legano Green for the modern model, so what's the name of the green color on vintage V7 Sport then? :huh:
so far as I knew neither had a name. Owning my Sport for 10 years and searching for any formal name about the color, this Legano name is the first I've encountered.
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Without pulling out all the examples, I found a number of photos of "original" V7 Sports with paint at least similar to Legnano Green, the color of Legnano racing bicycles.
(https://i.ibb.co/Wc6mtGz/Original-V7-Sport-Legnano-Green-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wc6mtGz)
Here is another original Legnano frame:
(https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_8965_2__88d2443e73efa8244fce22300eaec1aab4a012c6.jpg)
On the other hand, here is a photo from a Guzzi brochure showing the lime green paint on page 3 (from Greg Bender's site; this takes a bit to load):
(https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_images/brochure_moto_guzzi_v7_sport_850_california_850_gt_page_3.jpg)
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_more_topics_brochure_-_moto_guzzi_v7_sport-_850_california-_850_gt.html (https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_more_topics_brochure_-_moto_guzzi_v7_sport-_850_california-_850_gt.html)
There is another brochure showing what might be Legnano green on an actual Telaio Rosso racer on page 1, and a different, near-lime-green paint on the production model on page 2:
(https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_images/brochure_v7_sport_page_1.jpg)
(https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_images/brochure_v7_sport_page_2.jpg)
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_more_topics_brochure_-_moto_guzzi_v7_sport_-2_page-.html
Here are two contemporary cars from Plymouth, a 1970 and 1972 Barracuda, respectively:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/PLYMOUTH_BARRACUDA_AE-95-62_pic6.JPG/420px-PLYMOUTH_BARRACUDA_AE-95-62_pic6.JPG)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/PlymouthBarracuda.jpg/330px-PlymouthBarracuda.jpg)
I recall these Plymouths and other makes in similar colors to the second one. By the end of the 70's everyone was sick of them.
My opinion, given what I've uncovered, is that Guzzi did offer at least two colors of green. One was lime green, or close to it.
The other may or may not have been an intentional copy of Legnano green. In the U.S., we might have called that one either "green" -- since it was close to the green offered by automakers -- or maybe "Plymouth green," which is what I thought of it as, at the time. In Europe everyone with a pulse would have known the famous Legnano racing bicycles and their signature color (used from 1930 into the 1970's) so the Guzzi color might have been called "Legnano" as an informal identification, even if Guzzi just called it "green."
In America, only kids and teenagers who were unable to buy cars rode bikes, so no one would know "Legnano green." Over the years, Guzzi enthusiasts, reading accounts of the color from Europeans, began to think of Legnano green as some special Guzzi color, perhaps a factory racing color, instead of the bicycle color it was. What exactly the shade was became lost as motorcycles were repainted and as contemporary lime green examples were also found. In later years Guzzi itself issued at least one model in "Legnano green" that was really a brighter color. Perhaps Guzzi lost track of its own history, or perhaps it made a calculated decision to use the by-then mythical name for a different shade.
So, yes, there were two colors, one either called Legnano green by the factory or else by European observers well-familiar with the bicycle racers.
The Subaru in the picture is a 2021 Outback in a color called Plasma Yellow Pearl.
By the way, I think the authentic lime green might look very good on your Sport.
Moto
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RS Motorcycle paint.
https://www.rsbikepaint.com/en-us/colours.php#makeid=104&modelid=3869&prodyear=1971
UK based business but ship quickly. Not particularly inexpensive (Guzzi content) but not much more if any than same quality US available paints in my experience.
Brian
I'd go with RS, color matched the paint on my Daytona RS though it was kind of pricey but I only needed a little bit of paint.
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Alway great insight Moto.
@Blackcat, I’m a little scared of the base paint/color paint thing as a very amateur painter at best. I’m likely to go the Subaru route with the black decals, or black paint with lighter decals.
I will say that originally I was going burgundy but my wife who couldn’t care less about motorcycles or my re-hab projects wasn’t a fan. It’s funny how I’m still trying hard to impress her! :thewife:
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(https://i.ibb.co/P5BZZWG/Legnano-green-comparo.png) (https://ibb.co/P5BZZWG)
json display (https://geojsonlint.com/)
Upper right: a V7 Sport that I am convinced still has its original paint (the one called Legnano)
Upper left: the mocked-up paint scheme I gave my painter. The color was "eyedroppered" from the same photo of a Subaru I posted earlier in this thread. (By the way, the mock up is from an 850-T painted in red, with a white tank stripe. It might be from a forum member, but I have lost track. Sorry not to be able to give proper credit. My son did the computer work.)
Lower right: my T3 after the Subaru color paint job
Lower left: my Subaru Crosstrek in Plasma Yellow Pearl -- at dusk, showing a different color cast in the evening than in the daylight
The color looks a lot different in different light. I can meet up with you for an examination of the T3 before you make your decision.
Moto
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Alway great insight Moto.
@Blackcat, I’m a little scared of the base paint/color paint thing as a very amateur painter at best. I’m likely to go the Subaru route with the black decals, or black paint with lighter decals.
I will say that originally I was going burgundy but my wife who couldn’t care less about motorcycles or my re-hab projects wasn’t a fan. It’s funny how I’m still trying hard to impress her! :thewife:
I don't blame you in terms of the painting as my ability to paint is not particularly good. I sprayed the Norton frame and it came out OK, and probably better than what the factory did so I was OK with that level of painting but a tank, especially a V7 Sport in that color....nope. Fortunately I have a guy who can paint and his prices are not bad and it's professionally done.
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@moto, they all look great. I’m definitely not necessarily going for concourse repro here. Just decent DIY’er!
@blackcat, expectations need to reckon with reality. I’ve got a par (at best) mechanical feel but a very subpar amount of patience for cosmetics. Oh
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I’m sort of torn between two colors for paint when the time comes for my V7 Sport. The only thing holding me back from the Legnano Green (sic?) is the unavailable color match. However I think I’ve found a decent match and would like some input.
The color is from Hyundai, lime twist (among other names) w9y.
Not to be confused with the Kia: aliens 2 color, which I don’t think is very close.
What say you?
Seems the closest off the shelf commercially available color I’ve seen.
(https://i.ibb.co/9VVqL7K/AA9-E9337-AB44-4915-877-E-460-FC734-D30-C.webp) (https://imgbb.com/)
https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/17183-how-to-color-match-the-guzzi-lime-green/&tab=comments#comment-183698
Phil
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Yesterday while tooling around town there was a Toyota TRD edition turned left in front of me in a color similar to the green you're looking for.
(https://i.ibb.co/6mfNKVh/Tacoma-HERO-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6mfNKVh)
Paul B :boozing:
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Hey! What about MY Legnano Pesto?!? :laugh: :grin: :rolleyes: :shocked: :huh: :wink: :thumb: :bow: :boozing: :cool:
(https://i.ibb.co/F0dnpcy/Screen-Shot-2022-07-20-at-9-59-11-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/F0dnpcy)
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I think I see the big picture, after consulting Moto Guzzi Big Twins by Greg Field, still a member here. Greg had help preparing his book from many historically important Guzzi employees, including Lino Tonti, the creator of the V7 Sport.
Here's what Greg's book says on page 59:
The legend of the Telaio Rosso..., the special, hand-built V7 Sports painted in colors chosen by Tonti himself to at once connect the new machines with Guzzi's glorious racing heritage and set them apart from all that would follow--a metallic lime green for the gas tank and toolboxes to suggest the zinc-chromate green of the 1950's dustbin-faired racers and bright red for the frame to hark back to the earlier Guzzi racers.
And here is a detail of a photo stated to be of a Telaio Rosso, and credited to Moto Guzzi, on page 55 of the same book:
(https://i.ibb.co/JvYbf4z/P7201150.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JvYbf4z)
(I set the white balance accurately using a white reference sheet, and trust that the publisher was similarly careful.)
The photo is a genuine Telaio Rosso; if it is zinc-chromate green there is not much, if any, green pigment. The yellowish color of zinc chromate predominates.
As for calling this color "lime green," it might be considered a very unsaturated hue, unlike the bright lime green in the OP's first picture, but I think today the bright version is what most people would think of. Limes do come in different hues.
So the suggestion is that Tonti chose the color of a primer that was used as the paint on one of the 1950's dustbin racers. Different shades of primer on different fairings can be observed at the factory museum, so the particular one that he chose would matter.
The main thing I take from this is that "Legnano green" was not Tonti's intent. He wanted an approximation of a Guzzi racing fairing in the famous primer. The term "Legnano green" was probably attached to the color later on as an informal name, as I suggested before.
All that said, the actual Legnano green used by the bicycle company still looks like a pretty good approximation to the hue Tonti chose (and Subaru Plasma Yellow Pearl looks better, if anything). I haven't seen any indication that the bicycle color varied over time.
Chasing the most authentic Legnano green is beside the point. It's a red herring. :grin:
Sorry to the OP for all the topic drift.
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Ha! Well I am getting an education here! :bow: Thanks Moto for sharing your knowledge on this strange bit of Italian Moto lore.
To me, the deep hue and unique color alone is special enough. I’m not trying to match perfectly but I have something more to ponder now. Cheers!
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I think you should paint it gloss black and red frame.
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Just for kicks I found this in my “all” file. Don’t know if it’s original or not. I can’t even remembered who the owner is.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-TJjzRSL/0/d2a24a2e/L/IMG_0691-L.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-TJjzRSL/A)
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Maybe not exact V7 green but after Black I think this the best color Guzzi ever used.
(https://i.ibb.co/f9yqg4Y/919-BE590-169-A-49-E0-822-B-5738-B9-D8-B594.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f9yqg4Y)
I just absolutely love those things.
Dave Swanson’s red V11 is just gorgeous too. I have never ridden a V11 Sport but I know I would just love it .
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I think you should paint it gloss black and red frame.
(https://i.ibb.co/wB9g4vJ/Screen-Shot-2022-07-21-at-6-56-21-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/wB9g4vJ)
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What say you?
Seems the closest off the shelf commercially available color I’ve seen.
(https://i.ibb.co/9VVqL7K/AA9-E9337-AB44-4915-877-E-460-FC734-D30-C.webp) (https://imgbb.com/)
I say that's a pretty close match. I looked at a bunch of photos and most were retouched, but this one from a dealer's lot looks pretty cool:
(https://i.ibb.co/rccCbZT/9d412649f0ad79bdcd0fb7e378ca7f07.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rccCbZT)
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(https://i.ibb.co/yNX9KWQ/0831131250.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yNX9KWQ)
I think Fotoguzzi is correct :evil:
Paul B :boozing:
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(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Alfred_T._Palmer_-_Assembling_the_North_American_B-25_Mitchell_at_Kansas_City%2C_Kansas_%28USA%29.jpg/625px-Alfred_T._Palmer_-_Assembling_the_North_American_B-25_Mitchell_at_Kansas_City%2C_Kansas_%28USA%29.jpg)
This is considered one of the finest photographs in the Wikipedia Commons(!). It is called "Assembling the North American B-25 Mitchell at Kansas City," and shows zinc chromate primer painted on the aircraft. It's similar to the color of the Telaio Rosso I posted above, but even more yellow. I'm posting it mostly because it's a cool picture.
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(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Alfred_T._Palmer_-_Assembling_the_North_American_B-25_Mitchell_at_Kansas_City%2C_Kansas_%28USA%29.jpg/625px-Alfred_T._Palmer_-_Assembling_the_North_American_B-25_Mitchell_at_Kansas_City%2C_Kansas_%28USA%29.jpg)
This is considered one of the finest photographs in the Wikipedia Commons(!). It is called "Assembling the North American B-25 Mitchell at Kansas City," and shows zinc chromate primer painted on the aircraft. It's similar to the color of the Telaio Rosso I posted above. I'm posting it mostly because it's a cool picture.
That's not Zink Chromate finish I don't believe. That is aluminium skin treated with Alodine and 814 surface prep before any paint application. I've done a lot of this surface prep on aircraft 45 years ago as an apprentice. The 814 was a mild acid and we used to rub the bare surface with it and scotchbrite then immediately was it off with water and use the Alodine on the fresh silver aluminium which then immediately turned that translucent greenish gold. Zink Chromate doesn't have that translucent finish even when just thinly applied.
http://kracon.com/case-study-re-painting-a-metal-plane/
(https://i.ibb.co/pRR3W2b/Lance-N313-PK-N416-PB-09-16-15-etch-alodine-3-1024x768.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pRR3W2b)
Phil
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The MG museum bike is legnano green of course. I felt bound to painting mine the same color it came from the factory with, but if I hadn't been so constrained I would have considered the green. Nice color.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxkJD9cT/P7200302-zps6ae030f3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYLXhv8V/P7200296-zpsc50dbd3d.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5pFVLhD/P7200292-zpseb2bea9d.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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That's not Zink Chromate finish I don't believe. ...
Phil
What's in a name?
Phil, the caption to the photo, in the Zinc Chromate Wikipedia article, says it is zinc chromate, and there is a lot of material online saying that zinc chromate was used for the purpose at the time, which was more like 80 years ago, not 45. Alodine is a proprietary chromating process different from pure zinc chromate, I read.
To all: My original intent was not to correct anyone but myself. I had worried whether my T3's new paint matched the original color called Legnano green, which I found out was the color of Legnano bicycles from 1930 onward and had nothing to do with Moto Guzzi, or with zinc chromate so far as I can tell.
Opening Greg Field's book revealed that Lino Tonti wanted the Telaio's Rosso's tank color to mimic a zinc chromate primer used on the 1950's racers, of which there were and are many examples at the factory. Reading a little about zinc chromate reveals that different shades and colors of "zinc chromate" paint were created by adding pigments. Adding lamp black produced various greenish colors generically called "zinc chromate green." Probably one of those colors was Tonti's intent. This had nothing to do with Legnano bicycles or their signature green color.
I doubt that any factory documents from that time, about 1971, will be found that use the term "Legnano green." I think it is a later accretion. [EDIT: It could have been adopted by the factory to describe a different paint on the early 70's production model I suppose. I'm getting in over my head.]
If Guzzi or anyone else in later years wanted or wants to use the term "Legnano green" to refer to something different from the bicycle color, or something different from the color of that Telaio Rosso tank in the Moto Guzzi photo I posted earlier, there is nothing stopping them. But that photo and Tonti's story tell me I was barking up the wrong tree by trying to match the bicycle color.
This is much ado about nothing. I need to get to replacing the inner seal on my rear drive instead of worrying about a name.
Moto
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The two World Record bikes built by Tonti in 1969 had bodywork “painted” with zinc chromate. This was apparently not done as a fashion statement but was simply a utilitarian way to not have bare aluminum bodywork. Guzzi did such things in the past with other special bikes. Zinc Chromate is a functional coating without a particularly determinant color like actual paint, so it varies in hue or value depending upon different factors. It is notorious for looking different in person than in photographs, in different lighting, etc so reproducing that “color” is more about chance than anything else. I’ve read that in aircraft use, it was sometimes used in combination with other colored primers to provide visual indication of how many coatings different areas of an aircraft were primed or treated to readily ensure that certain specifications were met.
My very similar Lime Gold 1967 Mustang was beautiful on an overcast, cloudy day with no strong sunlight. On a bright sunny day, it looked like washed out weird yellow-green crap so my friends called it babys—- green..
According to (iirc) Fallon’s book, The “Legnano” or whatever Green on the original V7 Sport was only coincidental in relationship to the direct World Record Bike ancestry and its green zinc chromate bodywork. It was the product of a market study and contemporary leanings of the youthful target audience of the marketing dept.
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...
According to (iirc) Fallon’s book, The “Legnano” or whatever Green on the original V7 Sport was only coincidental in relationship to the direct World Record Bike ancestry and its green zinc chromate bodywork. It was the product of a market study and contemporary leanings of the youthful target audience of the marketing dept.
That doesn't explain the red frame, unlike the Greg Field/Lino Tonti account. Also, Falloon's story is hard to believe on its face, since the original Telaio Rosso was not a production model, but one created in a hurry for homologation. There would not have been a marketing study to determine its paint.
I'd believe Tonti unless Falloon cites convincing sources. (However, Tonti didn't always tell the truth, it seems. See Greg's great book for his account of the magical six second improvement in lap times Tonti claimed when he was selling the V7 Sport to his manager.)
Maybe Falloon was referring to the later production model? There were different shades of green on different V7 Sport models, for sure.
Moto
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That doesn't explain the red frame, unlike the Greg Field/Lino Tonti account. Also, Falloon's story is hard to believe on its face, since the original Telaio Rosso was not a production model, but one created in a hurry for homologation. There would not have been a marketing study to determine its paint.
I'd believe Tonti unless Falloon cites convincing sources. (However, Tonti didn't always tell the truth, it seems. See Greg's great book for his account of the magical six second improvement in lap times Tonti claimed when he was selling the V7 Sport to his manager.)
Maybe Falloon was referring to the later production model? There were different shades of green on different V7 Sport models, for sure.
Moto
I have no idea re which green for which model, nor the red frame detail. It’s easy if not logical to assume some direct relationship between the World record bikes, subsequent “Guzzi sets (many) world records” ad campaign and the resulting V7 Sport with similar green bodywork. I thought there was a connection. That’s why, in searching for details about the Record bikes, that statement about the focus group stood out. Is it the truth? I can’t say either way.
If Tonti wanted similar green bodywork for the new sport bike derived from the two Record bikes he built, that seems like one vote for that kind of green. If that outside Market Study contractor found the contemporary younger target audience also liked a similar green color, that would be another vote for the same.
It’s easy to forget that no one created these bikes or colors thinking it would be debated for decades, restored, etc etc. people want new and improved, not last year’s anything. Companies provide that to stay in business, including Moto Guzzi which was crawling out of bankruptcy at the time. Status quo is not good enough for most consumers. If it was, we would all still be riding a V700 and maybe a V7 Sport, if not a Falcone…. And as consistently inconsistent as are many of the smaller details on old Italian motorcycles built during analog-everything era, having minor variations in a weird shade of green paint over different model years seems pretty normal.
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having minor variations in a weird shade of green paint over different model years seems pretty normal.
It's very normal. Especially on Italian machines. Let's not get into "Alfa Racing Red". LOL!
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What's in a name?
Phil, the caption to the photo, in the Zinc Chromate Wikipedia article, says it is zinc chromate, and there is a lot of material online saying that zinc chromate was used for the purpose at the time, which was more like 80 years ago, not 45. Alodine is a proprietary chromating process different from pure zinc chromate, I read.
To all: My original intent was not to correct anyone but myself. I had worried whether my T3's new paint matched the original color called Legnano green, which I found out was the color of Legnano bicycles from 1930 onward and had nothing to do with Moto Guzzi, or with zinc chromate so far as I can tell.
Opening Greg Field's book revealed that Lino Tonti wanted the Telaio's Rosso's tank color to mimic a zinc chromate primer used on the 1950's racers, of which there were and are many examples at the factory. Reading a little about zinc chromate reveals that different shades and colors of "zinc chromate" paint were created by adding pigments. Adding lamp black produced various greenish colors generically called "zinc chromate green." Probably one of those colors was Tonti's intent. This had nothing to do with Legnano bicycles or their signature green color.
I doubt that any factory documents from that time, about 1971, will be found that use the term "Legnano green." I think it is a later accretion. [EDIT: It could have been adopted by the factory to describe a different paint on the early 70's production model I suppose. I'm getting in over my head.]
If Guzzi or anyone else in later years wanted or wants to use the term "Legnano green" to refer to something different from the bicycle color, or something different from the color of that Telaio Rosso tank in the Moto Guzzi photo I posted earlier, there is nothing stopping them. But that photo and Tonti's story tell me I was barking up the wrong tree by trying to match the bicycle color.
This is much ado about nothing. I need to get to replacing the inner seal on my rear drive instead of worrying about a name.
Moto
I like most refer to Wiki from time to time but it's often full of errors. There's also a difference between Wiki reading and doing. BTW the aero industry stopped using Zink Chromate quite a while back due to health reasons. You can still buy it but many companies in the aero industry haven't used it for years along with Mastinox due to health concerns. As for referencing anything in technical detail from Ian Falloon I can tell you I wouldn't use any technical details in his books as an absolute reference. I have many of his books on Ducatis and also Guzzi and they are riddled with technical and information detail errors including his latest "the complete book of Moto Guzzi". They are ok for "coffee table reading" but not as a factual technical reference.
Phil
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I like most refer to Wiki from time to time but it's often full of errors. ...
True that. But I looked elsewhere than Wikipedia to find many references to zinc chromate being used in the 30's and 40's on U.S. military aircraft. You weren't there, if you were doing similar work 45 years ago. So your experience from the 1970's is not relevant to this 1940's image.
I never suggested relying on Falloon. Instead, I cited Greg Field who had his information from Lino Tonti.
Moto
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No, I mentioned the reference to Falloon’s book as one more potential piece to the puzzle. I found that excerpt online in a pdf and spent the money I saved on bike parts (Guzzi content.). Very cool….
Many books/authors have limited technical value. Mick Walker’s Ducati Singles book is ridiculous if you have more than two or three reasonably original Ducati singles on hand for comparison to his asserted “facts.” That was the last & only Mick Walker book that I opened, much less purchased. I had seen enough. But those people keep selling books because people keep buying them.
Wiki makes the worst coffee table books look astute because at least the books had to go through an author, editor, publisher, distributor, etc. Even factory service manuals, which must be written/edited/published in synch with actual production (and thus likely to not be representative of final production configuration & details) can be of limited value in terms of reference for restoration work.
The actual machines speak the truth, especially the original unrestored examples. Without exception, everything else is suspect.
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...
If Tonti wanted similar green bodywork for the new sport bike derived from the two Record bikes he built, that seems like one vote for that kind of green. If that outside Market Study contractor found the contemporary younger target audience also liked a similar green color, that would be another vote for the same.
It’s easy to forget that no one created these bikes or colors thinking it would be debated for decades, restored, etc etc. people want new and improved, not last year’s anything. ...
It wasn't the two world record bikes that Tonti was referencing. It was all the great grand prix motorcycles that Guzzi campaigned after World War II up to 1957. These racing machines had no gloss paint at all, but wore only zinc chromate primer. This was to save weight, hard though that may be to believe. The head engineer responsible for those grand prix racers, Carcano, did everything possible to reduce weight, lower the center of gravity, reduce frontal area, and even perfect the fairing and the positions that riders assumed in Guzzi's own wind tunnel. The tiniest weight savings were sought, for example using single instead of double coil valve springs, according to the book I will mention in a moment. As a result, the one-cylinder Guzzi 350 competed successfully against Gilera's four-cylinder 350.
Tonti definitely knew all of the above. His choice of a green color for the tank honored those grand prix racers, and the choice of a red frame honored the non-grand prix racers like the Dondolino and the Falcone, which were painted red. To repeat, this was a choice he made for the Telaio Rossos, the homologation bikes, not for a production run.
The pre-1957 racing history of Guzzi is extremely interesting and worth exploring. There are lots of books, but I don't have very many. The single most insightful account of Carcano's strategy I have encountered is in L.J.K. Setright, Motorcycles, 1976. Used copies of this book concerning 30 different historical motorcycles (only one a Guzzi) are available on Amazon for $15 and up.
Here is a nice photo from Setright's book showing the color of the zinc chromate green on the Guzzi 500cc V8 that Dickie Dale rode in the 1957 TT, which he had just finished:
(https://i.ibb.co/vDdcj0n/Guzzi-V8-at-1957-TT.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vDdcj0n)
We are also very lucky to have an Italian mainstream color motion picture drama that shows the Guzzi and Gilera GP racers competing in 1957, their last season. Other equally interesting races are also shown in it, including the Milano-Taranto race over the length of Italy, with a prominent role for a Guzzi Falcone in red. The movie is I fidanzati della morte, available in Italian with English subtitles at www.rodaggiofilm.com (http://www.rodaggiofilm.com). Twenty five euros gets you a DVD plus a very nice booklet in Italian with English translations for most sections. Or you can stream the movie there for six Euros, just about six dollars at present. I and others here made contributions to have this movie restored and released.
Guzzi has long been a factory very conscious of its history and pretty disinclined to follow market signals. It kept its trademark horizontal singles in production from 1921 into the 1970's, and its later V-twin from the 1960's until the present. Guzzi has been more than happy to offer the buyer "last year's anything" through much of its history.
I've been on this forum for 20 years (my first account, Moto, was lost). It's easy to forget that not everyone has. I hope that you will enjoy finding out about those earlier zinc chromate green racers.
Moto
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No, I mentioned the reference to Falloon’s book as one more potential piece to the puzzle. I found that excerpt online in a pdf and spent the money I saved on bike parts (Guzzi content.). Very cool….
Many books/authors have limited technical value. Mick Walker’s Ducati Singles book is ridiculous if you have more than two or three reasonably original Ducati singles on hand for comparison to his asserted “facts.” That was the last & only Mick Walker book that I opened, much less purchased. I had seen enough. But those people keep selling books because people keep buying them.
Wiki makes the worst coffee table books look astute because at least the books had to go through an author, editor, publisher, distributor, etc. Even factory service manuals, which must be written/edited/published in synch with actual production (and thus likely to not be representative of final production configuration & details) can be of limited value in terms of reference for restoration work.
The actual machines speak the truth, especially the original unrestored examples. Without exception, everything else is suspect.
The actual machines are completely silent on the reasons for their existence and the motivations of their designers, which is what you were speculating about.
I never cited Mick Walker; you're grasping at straws in attacking an author I had no use for.
The book I cited first was Moto Guzzi Big Twins, by an author I have personally met who had cooperation from Tonti and other Guzzi employees. This is not just any book, and it's certainly not a book by Mick Walker.
The second book I cited (as I recall) was the one by L.J.K. Setright, a well-regarded automotive researcher and author. He was a fellow of the (British) Institute of Mechanical Engineers and author of about 20 books on automotive topics, according to Wikipedia, which of course you need not believe if you don't want to.
As for the topic of zinc chromate itself, I looked at Wikipedia and then at various non-Wikipedia discussions, on the internet. I don't take Wikipedia as authoritative, but I do believe in the worth of looking at a variety of materials. I never claimed to be an expert on zinc chromate, only a seeker of knowledge!
Moto
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Guzzi has long been a factory very conscious of its history and pretty disinclined to follow market signals. It kept its trademark horizontal singles in production from 1921 into the 1970's, and its later V-twin from the 1960's until the present. Guzzi has been more than happy to offer the buyer "last year's anything" through much of its history.
I've been on this forum for 20 years (my first account, Moto, was lost). It's easy to forget that not everyone has. I hope that you will enjoy finding out about those earlier zinc chromate green racers.
Moto
Yup, I am well aware of the Guzzi tradition of using only primer on race bikes to save weight- literally decades before I ever delved into the specific Record bike saga or found WildGuzzi. 20 yrs ago, I was already years past my 2nd build/rebuild of my well-flogged V7 Sport.
Trying to translate the spontaneity of a purpose-built race bike into a production model is a compromise at best. Otherwise, customers would accept a bike on its merit alone and not its cosmetic level of finish. That may have worked many decades ago but didn’t seem to be the case after MG went into receivership in 1965-66.
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(https://i.ibb.co/wB9g4vJ/Screen-Shot-2022-07-21-at-6-56-21-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/wB9g4vJ)
Had one in that condition. Purty thang. Hated to ride it though.. it was a museum piece.
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Bill, I happened to roll up on this Prius today and had time to snap pics. Did not research the color name but it may be the same as the Toyota TRD truck posted earlier…
Ed
(https://i.ibb.co/XVCJZDJ/456810-CE-97-EF-4296-B0-A2-A1-F643-F2703-A.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/c1CsR7K/5926-E0-F7-4084-4647-906-F-ABA08-ADEAFED.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hyZTrtx)
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Ed! With the awesome 2 stroke yammie!
I know it. Now that I’ve been looking, I see a similar color everywhere! I’m getting further away from a DIY paint job and closer to a pro job. My concern is two fold with the pro’s… One is that I really like to get a few layers of clear, like 7-9 thin coats. The other is if I it doesn’t hold up usually bad paint jobs is they are fine for atleast 6mos. Let’s be honest here no painter is going to help you out that far out! If nothing when I paint stuff it lasts!
@ foto, if I can’t get an acceptable color match I’ll just do black tins, the frame is already done though…
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Just to add to the murky story of Legnano Green the colour was also used (briefly) by Aprilia and actually called by that name.
I can confirm it changed under different light sometimes more strongly green, sometimes more yellow.
Here is my 2007 Aprilia Shiver in the light of a partial eclipse
(https://i.ibb.co/GktZD9B/2015-SL750-eclipse.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GktZD9B)
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This bike was love at first sight. My introduction to Moto Guzzi. Wish I could have kept it.
(https://i.ibb.co/x76cCBY/moto-guzzi-v7-sport-10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x76cCBY)
(https://i.ibb.co/JFWnNVw/Moto-Guzz-V7-Cafe-Classic-01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JFWnNVw)
(https://i.ibb.co/N6qW83T/Moto-Guzz-V7-Cafe-Classic-05.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N6qW83T)
(https://i.ibb.co/60X8fYw/EICMA-2008-3-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/60X8fYw)
(https://i.ibb.co/5s45g93/Aldo-Tizzani-27fev2009.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5s45g93)
(https://i.ibb.co/FnDnYv9/20151226-151457.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FnDnYv9)
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The rumored V7 that might be shown at the upcoming EICMA is Legnano Green...
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What about the other V7sport green found on the later bikes?
(https://i.ibb.co/LJSDypL/Moto-Guzzi-V-7-Sport-1972.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LJSDypL)
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As an alternate option, Sherwin Williams (the house paints) also supply automotive paints to body shops (just learned this recently) - not all stores have the automotive paints, swatches/books, so call around to find "that store" - they are all coded and you'd be able to match them in the future. You may be able to find an even closer match to the Moto Guzzi Legnano Green.