Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: amamet on August 17, 2022, 01:20:25 PM
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since the bp6es plugs are discontinued I read to just get bpr6es plugs, I was wondering if my ngk red racing caps and wires are still good to use. I read that resistor plugs should NOT be used with resistor caps? this is all too confusing :)
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What is the ignition system? You don’t need resistor anything with points. Resistor plugs were introduced to reduce RF interference. Noise on your radio. Some electronic ignitions may specify them as well.
Pete
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Won't make a whit of difference. Resistor plugs and caps work just fine in combination with points or electronic ignition systems. YMMV!
Brian
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Resistor plugs should not be used with resistor caps. Total resistance will be too high. The right amount of resistance gives a better spark at the right time.
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just got off the phone with ngk tech, was told don't use restistor caps with resistor plugs, period. he said to with to non-resistor caps or find nos plugs if I want to use ngk. he mentioned everyone will be doing the same since non resistor plugs are "old tech"
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I switched over to Nippon Denso plugs because of NGK stopped making the BP6ES non resister plug.
I can say that the ND plugs offer in my case a better running bike so give then a try
NGK BP6ES equals the Nippon Denso W20EP-U Both are non-resister
side note ---I'm using the 5 ohm Bosch resister caps, no issues , if you need resister caps NGK still makes them
TOMB
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^ I think you meant to say "5K ohm" . Peter
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I switched over to Nippon Denso plugs because of NGK stopped making the BP6ES non resister plug.
I can say that the ND plugs offer in my case a better running bike so give then a try
NGK BP6ES equals the Nippon Denso W20EP-U Both are non-resister
side note ---I'm using the 5 ohm Bosch resister caps, no issues , if you need resister caps NGK still makes them
TOMB
Same thing here. The first time I started my V50 III during it's "resurrection" it didn't go so well. It would only run on one cylinder, checked and rechecked everything. New (genuine) NGK BP7ES plugs. Tried a set of new (genuine) NGK BP6ES I had - same thing. Tried a pair of Denso W22EP-U - it started on both cylinders and ran very well. I've been using them ever since.
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At least as far back as 2013 when I got my first V7, the specified plugs had resistors and the caps also had resistors. If NGK thinks they shouldn't be used together, they didn't tell Moto Guzzi. I've never had any kind of ignition problems with any of my 3 V7s, so I'm not losing any sleep over the issue.
Also, although resistors were first used to lower radio interference, I wouldn't be surprised if they also prevent interference with all the electronic devices we use these days, including computerized fuel injection systems.
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Resistor plugs actually provide spark at greater energy because they hold off spark discharge until there is enough to overcome the resistance and to jump the plug gap. If you had a SunScope for tuning you could see it in the spark voltage on the screen, I have. Resistor plugs have been used with resistor caps and resistor wires since the 1960s, well before the advent of electronic ignition and fuel injection in automotive applications. Many Guzzi and other bikes came from the factory with resistor caps and plugs. This is really a non issue. But think what you will.
Brian
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Where do you find Nippon Denso W20EP-U plugs?
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Where do you find Nippon Denso W20EP-U plugs?
I have them ordered through NAPA and other parts stores, also buy them on Amazon.
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Should the Denso pre-set gap be modified?
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Should the Denso pre-set gap be modified?
Yes. On their website they specify .025" gap for the W20EP-U and the W22EP-U when used in older Guzzi applications.
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2004 EVT. From factory, resistor caps and plugs.
NGK does not appear to make a 0 resistance cap in the LB-XX-YY style. Lowest is LB01EP that I can find, again, at least in that style.
Tom
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All I know is that Eraldo Ferracci would insist on using those OEM metal clad spark plug caps (over brownish phenolic looking innards) on the 851 Ducatis. And FWIW, Dr John once told me by running .025 or .028" gaps I was losing torque. He said use .035. YMMV...
What I'll never understand is how you can have ignition wires with a core of material that would not appear to be of a conducting material (silicon core, plastic looking shite).
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All I know is that Eraldo Ferracci would insist on using those OEM metal clad spark plug caps (over brownish phenolic looking innards) on the 851 Ducatis. And FWIW, Dr John once told me by running .025 or .028" gaps I was losing torque. He said use .035. YMMV...
What I'll never understand is how you can have ignition wires with a core of material that would not appear to be of a conducting material (silicon core, plastic looking shite).
My grandfather who was a NYC cop spent the last few years working in a NYPD garage as a mechanic and supervisor rather than a desk job after getting hurt while serving as a motorcycle officer in upper Manhattan. He was one of the lucky few to ride the old Indian police bikes in the 50's and 60's.
Anyhow, your recalling Dr. John reminded me of a trick he taught me back when I was a kid, that increasing plug gap on an air cooled engine or high powered motor would result in more power and torque, but you had to have a healthy fuel and ignition system, or you would hobble the motor. He was also a fanatic about indexing the plugs to get as ideal and equal combustion as possible. Man I miss him.
I prefer the R plugs to non R plugs with or without R caps. They result in a cleaner spark (as was stated earlier) due to the resistor.
Use what makes you most comfortable. I've had similar performance from ND and NGK plugs, but prefer old school copper NGK's or BOSCH to just about anything.
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My grandfather who was a NYC cop spent the last few years working in a NYPD garage as a mechanic and supervisor rather than a desk job after getting hurt while serving as a motorcycle officer in upper Manhattan. He was one of the lucky few to ride the old Indian police bikes in the 50's and 60's.
Anyhow, your recalling Dr. John reminded me of a trick he taught me back when I was a kid, that increasing plug gap on an air cooled engine or high powered motor would result in more power and torque, but you had to have a healthy fuel and ignition system, or you would hobble the motor. He was also a fanatic about indexing the plugs to get as ideal and equal combustion as possible. Man I miss him.
I prefer the R plugs to non R plugs with or without R caps. They result in a cleaner spark (as was stated earlier) due to the resistor.
Use what makes you most comfortable. I've had similar performance from ND and NGK plugs, but prefer old school copper NGK's or BOSCH to just about anything.
Would you possibly have any pictures of your Grandfather on a police bike.
I collect old Motor Cop photos?
Sorry for the thread drift guys.
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I see on the Denso cross reference chart, there is a w20ep, w20ep-u and a w20ex-u for the ngk bp6es. anyone no the difference? removable terminal vs fixed?
thx
allen
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I just purchased a pair a few months ago.
replacement for BP6ES
NGK 7131 BPR6ES Nickel Spark Plug
SKU #BPR6ES
ITEM #NGK7131
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Non R NGK plugs still available on Amazon. I took delivery this week.
https://www.amazon.com/NGK-BP6ES-SOLID-Standard-Spark/dp/B001RM4SE4/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3IQ1XV2LEBF2O&keywords=bp6es%2Bngk%2Bspark%2Bplug&qid=1660847088&sprefix=BP6ES%2Caps%2C84&sr=8-4&th=1
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Yah saw that but balked at $10 a p;lug
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Shop around a bit:
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NGK4007
Note that on the 4007, the terminal on top is non-removable.
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My local parts store still has the NGK 4007 in stock, perhaps I should be buying up what he has before they are gone?
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I have them ordered through NAPA and other parts stores, also buy them on Amazon.
Thanks I will check with NAPA
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Yah saw that but balked at $10 a p;lug
Heard that! and of course shortly after ordering I read this.... (93 and up Digiplex entry) Guzziology
Supported by others comments here.
(https://i.imgur.com/O0v7mfD.png)
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^^^^Kip.. as my favorite philosopher Babe the Pig says.. "Because that is the way life is." :smiley:
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Yah saw that but balked at $10 a p;lug
$10 for $ 2 plug? I'm going to get some emery cloth a pocket knife.
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I have an aircraft spark plug cleaner/tester that I've made an insert to test 14mm plugs. Other than finding an occasional bad plug out of the box (Champion mower plugs) it's kind of useless on a $2 plug. It's kind of handy on a $50 aircraft plug, though. :smiley:
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All I know is that Eraldo Ferracci would insist on using those OEM metal clad spark plug caps (over brownish phenolic looking innards) on the 851 Ducatis. And FWIW, Dr John once told me by running .025 or .028" gaps I was losing torque. He said use .035. YMMV...
What I'll never understand is how you can have ignition wires with a core of material that would not appear to be of a conducting material (silicon core, plastic looking shite).
The conductor is carbon. So you have 5k ohm plug caps, 5k plugs and many K (????) ohm wire.
Its gotta work, right.
Pete
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I have an aircraft spark plug cleaner/tester that I've made an insert to test 14mm plugs. Other than finding an occasional bad plug out of the box (Champion mower plugs) it's kind of useless on a $2 plug. It's kind of handy on a $50 aircraft plug, though. :smiley:
I have half dozen old ones squirreled away. That'd be about $12 worth. :boozing:
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My grandfather who was a NYC cop spent the last few years working in a NYPD garage as a mechanic and supervisor rather than a desk job after getting hurt while serving as a motorcycle officer in upper Manhattan. He was one of the lucky few to ride the old Indian police bikes in the 50's and 60's.
Anyhow, your recalling Dr. John reminded me of a trick he taught me back when I was a kid, that increasing plug gap on an air cooled engine or high powered motor would result in more power and torque, but you had to have a healthy fuel and ignition system, or you would hobble the motor. He was also a fanatic about indexing the plugs to get as ideal and equal combustion as possible. Man I miss him.
I prefer the R plugs to non R plugs with or without R caps. They result in a cleaner spark (as was stated earlier) due to the resistor.
Use what makes you most comfortable. I've had similar performance from ND and NGK plugs, but prefer old school copper NGK's or BOSCH to just about anything.
My stepfather raced dirt track back in the 50's, and did a lot of testing getting the most out of the old flathead fords. He also found that they ran stronger and stronger till the weak ignition's of the day would fail. He always said he wished he had the later CD, or electronic ignitions back then.
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Let me get this right; are people suggesting resistor plugs for old points based ignitions?
I search out non-resistor plugs for old ignitions, esp. kick start magneto bikes. I bought a used '69 Benelli 350 single (actually sold by Wards Riverside), in very good, but non-running condition. It had spark when bought. I refreshed the bike overall, put in a fancy Bosch thin-wire precious resistor metal plug, kicked it and kicked, but no spark. Put in the orig. 50 yrs old non-resistor Marelli plug, and BAM! Nice spark.
If may have been a plug gap issue, but I bet the resistor didn't help. The orig. plug had a 0.026" air gap that the engine called for, while the modern Bosch resistor plug had a much bigger gap.
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Gapping the new plug to .026 would possibly work if the ignition system has enough energy available. Not all will. Best general rule of thumb is to start with what is called for and then experiment from there. As many have noted there is some leeway as to how much resistance some systems can handle. Just be careful if you change the heat range towards hotter as that can cause the most damage.
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I ordered 6 plugs (BP6ES/NGK 4007) from my local NAPA Tuesday, they arrived today. They can't get them from suppliers, but many stores have them in stock. Mine shipped to MA from Buffalo.
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I switched over to Nippon Denso plugs because of NGK stopped making the BP6ES non resister plug.
I can say that the ND plugs offer in my case a better running bike so give then a try
NGK BP6ES equals the Nippon Denso W20EP-U Both are non-resister
side note ---I'm using the 5 ohm Bosch resister caps, no issues , if you need resister caps NGK still makes them
TOMB
+1. I won't shed any tears on NGK BP6ES plugs no longer available. Contrary to most other people, the only plugs that ever failed me were those.
Not Champion, not ND, not AC, not Bosch. But my favorite is still the Nippon Denso brand.