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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SydBarrett on September 10, 2022, 03:12:53 AM
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Hi all,
I am at the point of choosing between a '74 T or a '75 T3.
The T is in good condition, both mechanical and aesthetically. It has a dual front disk, and this version has an oil filter.
The T3 is in good mechanical condition but has little cosmetic work to be done, such as chrome on the fork, exhaust pipes and seat.
A part from the rear drum brake, the brake system, dual gauge (I do prefer the T gauge), side covers, and front and rear tires, what are the other differences between the T and the T3?
I have noticed a weight difference of around 25kg. Is that correct? Is the drum brake that makes the difference or some other component?
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If I remember right the T-3 Generator has a higher output.
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Also have an oil filter in the T-3. Do you know if they still have the chrome bores? If so some major bucks dealing with that.
GliderJohn
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If one has had Gilardoni cylinder upgrade from the original chrome - go with that one.
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T went 123,t3 around 100 but had bags and windshield and foot boards.If rear brakes sorted on the T it might make sense.Both had chrome cylinders.T was a Sport with disc front bake and bigger motor,only minus were the terrible colors and rear brake.
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T3 also has a bigger universal joint.Lots of little but very significant changes lik e that would steer me to the T3. But the chrome bore in either would be a major concern as to the price.Updated to Nikasil or steel would be good...otherwise very much less enticeing.
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When I bought my 850T in 76 I had to make the same choice. Both new, the T was $2250 and T3 was $2600. For the difference in price I chose the T. It had no EPA crap, taller rear drive, and was timed at 8* and not 2*. More like a LM than the EPA model. At the time I didn't think the brakes were worth the extra cash.
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The T has a nicer dashboard in ally too...but easy enough to meld both models to get the best of both worlds.
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The T has the what I call a suicide side stand. I can't count the amount of T's at rallies that fell over if you didn't have a beer can under the stand. The T-3 with the police stand and the pull back police bars made it a mile eater for me. The passenger part of the seat is horrible according to even drunk lot lizards I picked up.
Tex
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Non california/FB T-3s also had the suicide stand.
I've owned both. Go with whichever needs less work.
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Non california/FB T-3s also had the suicide stand.
I've owned both. Go with whichever needs less work.
Nice, which one did you feel better? Engine-wise, are they the same setup?
Which one is more comfortable for a pillion? Is the triple disk worthed?
T went 123,t3 around 100 but had bags and windshield and foot boards.If rear brakes sorted on the T it might make sense.Both had chrome cylinders.T was a Sport with disc front bake and bigger motor,only minus were the terrible colors and rear brake.
What do you mean T went 123?
They both have chrome bores. I won't upgrade if I don't need to.
Also have an oil filter in the T-3. Do you know if they still have the chrome bores? If so some major bucks dealing with that.
GliderJohn
Early T versions did not have the oil filters. The T does not have the air filter, though.
T3 also has a bigger universal joint.Lots of little but very significant changes lik e that would steer me to the T3. But the chrome bore in either would be a major concern as to the price.Updated to Nikasil or steel would be good...otherwise very much less enticeing.
A part from the triple disk, what changes have they done?
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Engine - feels the same, same state of tune.
Brakes - The single disc and 15mm master cylinder on the 850T feels wooden. The 850T's 15mm master cylinder really wants a second disc and a set of 4 piston calipers. The drum brake in the rear looks great. If you are going to modify upgrade the brakes go with the T.
The T-3's linked brakes wins if you are keeping everything stock.
I wouldn't worry about the u joint unless you plan on doing serious engine work ( high lift cam, bigger carbs, etc. ) and plan on flogging the crap out of it. I mildly hopped up my 850 T and it's fine.
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Engine - feels the same, same state of tune.
Brakes - The single disc and 15mm master cylinder on the 850T feels wooden. The 850T's 15mm master cylinder really wants a second disc and a set of 4 piston calipers. The drum brake in the rear looks great. If you are going to modify upgrade the brakes go with the T.
The T-3's linked brakes wins if you are keeping everything stock.
I wouldn't worry about the u joint unless you plan on doing serious engine work ( high lift cam, bigger carbs, etc. ) and plan on flogging the crap out of it. I mildly hopped up my 850 T and it's fine.
The 850T I have seen has s dual front disks.
If I go for the T3, I may delink the breaks as I have never used the linked brake system. On all my bikes, I mainly use the front disk. I use the rear brake only on turns.
What's the u joint?
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U-joint - Universal joint for the shaft drive. They upgraded the u joint on the T-3 and all tonti framed bikes since. 850T uses the same as the eldorado/ambassador etc.
If the T has a second disc up front, then that would be my pick.
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U-joint - Universal joint for the shaft drive. They upgraded the u joint on the T-3 and all tonti framed bikes since. 850T uses the same as the eldorado/ambassador etc.
If the T has a second disc up front, then that would be my pick.
Is the U-joint better in the T3?
Many people also mentioned that the T rear was higher is that correct? What's more comfortable for a pillion?
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They both have chrome bores. I won't upgrade if I don't need to.
Chrome bores will fail. It's a given not a possibility. When they do fail they can destroy your engine in very short order. When taking on one of these bikes it is imperative to upgrade. If this does not suit your fancy I would recommend a later bike with Nigusil bores bores from the factory.
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+ 1 on changing out the bores...expensive but imperative.
The T3 UJ is bigger so more reliable.Bearing in mind that that change happened with the introduction of the 88mm bore for the G 5 and Convert, the T might not be hand grenade either.
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+ 1 on changing out the bores...expensive but imperative.
The T3 UJ is bigger so more reliable.Bearing in mind that that change happened with the introduction of the 88mm bore for the G 5 and Convert, the T might not be hand grenade either.
Chrome bores will fail. It's a given not a possibility. When they do fail they can destroy your engine in very short order. When taking on one of these bikes it is imperative to upgrade. If this does not suit your fancy I would recommend a later bike with Nigusil bores bores from the factory.
In officine08 has the Gilardoni kit. I could also put the 950cc. I may upgrade it later. https://www.officine08.com/p12823_engine-tuning-kit-moto-guzzi-850-t3-950cc.html
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Keep in mind the gilardoni kit only includes enough for one side. You may need to re-balance the engine with the 950cc upgrade.
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Is this your first Moto Guzzi? Then you should get something that’s a rider right now and not needing any work.
Or, what are your riding plans on this thing?
Best find out if Guzzi are right for you before leaping into the deep pocket.
What is the price of these two choices you have?
My first Guzzi was a T back in the 1970’s I couldn’t kill it even tho I tried hard like a crazy kid.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Foto/i-Rhg4QFn/0/49ed961c/M/068_1-M.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Foto/i-Rhg4QFn/A)
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123 mph .Rear brake tends to lock up without warning if not adjusted right,which is tricky.
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T went 123,t3 around 100 but had bags and windshield and foot boards.If rear brakes sorted on the T it might make sense.Both had chrome cylinders.T was a Sport with disc front bake and bigger motor,only minus were the terrible colors and rear brake.
Tom's T3 with bags and windshield may have gone only around 100 mph but a stock T3 did an accurately measured two-way average top speed of 116.9 mph on June 16 1975 at the Motor Industry Research Association proving ground in England. As for his report of 123 mph from an 850 t, I don't know of any accurate tests that showed top speeds, but I do know that the Veglia speedometer is not accurate at high speed.
The T probably went somewhat faster than the T3's 117 mph because it had no air filter and ran with a bigger main jet. But if there is an actual two-way average top speed of 123 mph somewhere in the past literature, I am unaware of it.
All that stuff concerns the motorcycles when they were new. Your choice now is between two used motorcycles that have very similar performance. The integral braking system is an excellent reason to get the T3. You should not reject that advantage before you read this article:
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/motociclismo_1975-07_850_t3_english.pdf
Moto
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Cycle World got 123 in August 74 from thr T.
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Cycle World got 123 in August 74 from thr T.
That's a good source. I'd love to have that article.
EDIT: I just ordered it.
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Is this your first Moto Guzzi? Then you should get something that’s a rider right now and not needing any work.
Or, what are your riding plans on this thing?
Best find out if Guzzi are right for you before leaping into the deep pocket.
What is the price of these two choices you have?
My first Guzzi was a T back in the 1970’s I couldn’t kill it even tho I tried hard like a crazy kid.
It will be my first Guzzi but not my first bike. I own a Triumph Scrambler EFI right now. I has a Ducati Monster for 12 years.
I also own a Vespa 150cc.
I have tried 4 Guzzi so far:
- V7 850: Really great, but I don’t want EFI anymore. It changes the way you ride it.
- T5: horrible, it seemed to ride a tank and it looked like it had balance.
- V1000: What a bike, you felt the power when rolling the throttle, balanced and easy to ride.
- T3: Similar to the v1000 but with a less powerful engine. Event though it ‘s only 100cc less I could feel the difference.
At the moment I use it for the weekend ride (50-100km). I live 1km from my office ao no saily commute. Sometimes during the week I go to the main city.
I am not a super sporty guy anymore and I reduced the average speed down to 100km/h.
Both bikes are ready to use. The T3 needs few cosmetics jobs to bring it back to its original state. Both around €4.5k
I have notice that only outside of Italy everyone is concerne about the chrome bores. I have spoken to 3-4 old Guzzi garages and they don’t seem to be bothered. They said: unless it was off for more than 10 years, I don’t see the problem.
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Hey Syd
Sounds like you’ve decided but my 2c as a long term owner, I fitted a T drum rear to my 1978 Le Mans in 1980, still my main transport, have 3 other Guzzis on the road, one only still with linked brakes, I don’t drive cars unless forced.
Twin discs unlinked with 08 calipers are as much brakes as I could use, master cylinder, discs and pads easily changed for as good as mine.
Twin leader rear drum can be set up fierce or gentle with different linings, adjustment etc. My favourite rear brake, bar none.
Re your original question, only toolboxes and drum brake affect weight, negligible difference between two , where did you get 25kg difference ?
Speaking of toolboxes, a massive advantage imho, steel panels on T3 achieve nothing. Useful storage space is important to me.
Comfort for two, original seats identical to all intents, aftermarket or specialist seat recovers nearly infinite, footrest position identical so absolutely no difference
To achieve V1000 engine, all you need is 950 kit, a wise man would overhaul the lot at same time (this kit solves chrome issue too)
UJ difference is relevant if you do big miles, doesn’t sound as if that’s the case, if you do need to buy another “small” one it will probably outlive you.
There are many improvements that can be made to either but none I can think of model specific apart from the above
Buy the T
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Seems to me from the time I was shopping, that these things have been wrenched on, parts swapped, rebuilt, so many times by this point that its had to compare a T to a T3. Who knows what parts each has. Just go by whatever one is the nicest.
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I have notice that only outside of Italy everyone is concerne about the chrome bores. I have spoken to 3-4 old Guzzi garages and they don’t seem to be bothered. They said: unless it was off for more than 10 years, I don’t see the problem.
These guys wont be the ones left with a useless lump of an engine by not paying heed to advice that is based in long term Guzzi experience.
I know you are new to the forum, but when someone with the experience of Frenchfrog gives you advice, it pays to listen.
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My chrome bores were juiced at around 45k miles...the bike had never been laid up for long, ran perfectly but I had to check and there it was, clear to see.I fitted gillardoni big bores without a rebalence and it was fine if a bit more vibey.I would certainly rebalance the crank now simply because it makes for a smoother engine...at the time I was strapped for cash and needed the bike back on the road as it was my daily rider.
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From Frenchfrog
My chrome bores were juiced at around 45k miles...the bike had never been laid up for long, ran perfectly but I had to check and there it was, clear to see.I fitted gillardoni big bores without a rebalence and it was fine if a bit more vibey.I would certainly rebalance the crank now simply because it makes for a smoother engine...at the time I was strapped for cash and needed the bike back on the road as it was my daily rider.
About the same experience with my T-3 except I made it to about 70K. I did not rebalance either and notice a bit more vibration. If I had to do it over again I would have also had the crank balanced. Going on 40K after the engine redo and running great.
GliderJohn
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Hey Syd
Sounds like you’ve decided but my 2c as a long term owner, I fitted a T drum rear to my 1978 Le Mans in 1980, still my main transport, have 3 other Guzzis on the road, one only still with linked brakes, I don’t drive cars unless forced.
Twin discs unlinked with 08 calipers are as much brakes as I could use, master cylinder, discs and pads easily changed for as good as mine.
Twin leader rear drum can be set up fierce or gentle with different linings, adjustment etc. My favourite rear brake, bar none.
Alright, the rear drum is good but of course I need to drive thinking I have a 50 years old rear brake style.
Re your original question, only toolboxes and drum brake affect weight, negligible difference between two , where did you get 25kg difference ?
Speaking of toolboxes, a massive advantage imho, steel panels on T3 achieve nothing. Useful storage space is important to me.
I looked at different websites and they reported different weights. A friend gave me the link for the T and T3 maintenance boom and actually the T3 is heavier. T is 235kg and T3 is 243kg. Full weight.
Comfort for two, original seats identical to all intents, aftermarket or specialist seat recovers nearly infinite, footrest position identical so absolutely no difference
To achieve V1000 engine, all you need is 950 kit, a wise man would overhaul the lot at same time (this kit solves chrome issue too)
UJ difference is relevant if you do big miles, doesn’t sound as if that’s the case, if you do need to buy another “small” one it will probably outlive you.
There are many improvements that can be made to either but none I can think of model specific apart from the above
Buy the T
My only doubt was the brake system, 3disks vs 2 disks plus drum. If the driver position is the same and perfomances are the same, I would just go with the one it’s in better condition.
These guys wont be the ones left with a useless lump of an engine by not paying heed to advice that is based in long term Guzzi experience.
I know you are new to the forum, but when someone with the experience of Frenchfrog gives you advice, it pays to listen.
I am not saying I am not listening, in fact, I have already checked the Gilardoni 850 and 950 kit.
I have notice that in Italy it does not seem to be an issue.
My chrome l bores were juiced at around 45k miles...the bike had never been laid up for long, ran perfectly but I had to check and there it was, clear to see.I fitted gillardoni big bores without a rebalence and it was fine if a bit more vibey.I would certainly rebalance the crank now simply because it makes for a smoother engine...at the time I was strapped for cash and needed the bike back on the road as it was my daily rider.
Good to know, the rebalancing consists only on the crank? Did you have to change other parts a part from bores and cylinders?
Are the extra 100cc noticeable?
From FrenchfrogAbout the same experience with my T-3 except I made it to about 70K. I did not rebalance either and notice a bit more vibration. If I had to do it over again I would have also had the crank balanced. Going on 40K after the engine redo and running great.
GliderJohn
Were your bores juiced as well? How do you rebalance the crank?
I am the overthink type of guy. I need to know the small details before I buy something, expecially for a bike. It annoys me as well :grin:
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Mines gone up to over 100k and no issues ....then I got LM heads and 88 pistons and the vibrations are much worse,Still have not rebalanced but really must do :grin:
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I tend to overthink too Sy but that is a good thing.
Rebalance concerns the crank but for the best job it seems that you should send the flywheel too.I've even heard of some adding on the alternator rotor too. The thing that matters is piston weight and apparently some big bore kits keep the weights the same , so rebalencing is not needed then. You just need good scales and check the comparative weights of all the components.The Gudgeon pins also vary in weight !
I didn't notice any power difference...if anything that engine was sweetest running as an 850 with the original airbox...
BTW I also changed over the springs in the distributor to LM ones and retimed the bike to that spec at one point and it was sharper.The T 3 set up was likely due to emissions that the T was was having problems passing ( why that didn't effect the LM is anyone's guess ).
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I tend to overthink too Sy but that is a good thing.
Rebalance concerns the crank but for the best job it seems that you should send the flywheel too.I've even heard of some adding on the alternator rotor too. The thing that matters is piston weight and apparently some big bore kits keep the weights the same , so rebalencing is not needed then. You just need good scales and check the comparative weights of all the components.The Gudgeon pins also vary in weight !
I didn't notice any power difference...if anything that engine was sweetest running as an 850 with the original airbox...
BTW I also changed over the springs in the distributor to LM ones and retimed the bike to that spec at one point and it was sharper.The T 3 set up was likely due to emissions that the T was was having problems passing ( why that didn't effect the LM is anyone's guess ).
Is the T still having issue passing the emission test? The one I may buy did pass it two years ago.
I may buy the kit from officine08 which uses the Gilardoni kit.
Overthinking is a good thing. I started from the V7 2021 and I travelled back to the 1974 because I wanted a carburettor Guzzi. I don’t like the 90s models and the 80s have 16” front wheels. In the 70s, teste tonde and first V twins models after the V7 and V7 sport.
I know it’s a 50y old bike and it needs more effort to drive it but with EFI models it’s too easy. You don’t really feel the bike. I also have a Vespa150 I have a good training on heaviness, low stability and bad braking 😂. The T3 and V1000 I tried are very stable though.
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No idea about the emissions...it's just a theory that Dave Richardson had if my memory is right.
my kits are gillardonis too...good stuff but you do need to have the base of the barrel turned down by about 1/2 mm as the cases on T and T 3 are slightly smaller.
HMB sell the kit with this already done https://hmb-guzzi.de/Cylinder-Kit-88mm-850-T-T3-T4
I'm sure they can advise about the need for a re balence too.
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No idea about the emissions...it's just a theory that Dave Richardson had if my memory is right.
my kits are gillardonis too...good stuff but you do need to have the base of the barrel turned down by about 1/2 mm as the cases on T and T 3 are slightly smaller.
HMB sell the kit with this already done https://hmb-guzzi.de/Cylinder-Kit-88mm-850-T-T3-T4
I'm sure they can advise about the need for a re balence too.
Similar to https://www.officine08.it/p12824_kit-cilindro-e-pistone-completo-per-moto-guzzi-850-t3.html . This is 850, 83mm
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Go for that one...no messing with balance and frankly the bore increase is hardly noticeable.Strange that the 83mm is only available from them.When mine was operated on I had no choice really...88mm or get new 83 mm pistons and work on the damaged chrome ones. That was not the usual path back then and would have cost more I think.
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Go for that one...no messing with balance and frankly the bore increase is hardly noticeable.Strange that the 83mm is only available from them.When mine was operated on I had no choice really...88mm or get new 83 mm pistons and work on the damaged chrome ones. That was not the usual path back then and would have cost more I think.
Ok, is it an expensive job to check the chrome on the existing engine?
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Ok, is it an expensive job to check the chrome on the existing engine?
You can use a cheap boroscope to inspect the bores through the spark plug holes, but unless there are chunks of chrome missing it won't tell you much. The most common chrome bore failure is microscopic bits of chrome that pop off the walls, which can be difficult to see unless under magnification in good lighting. These bits flowing with the oil form a very destructive grinding medium that eventually destroys everything it touches.
You could drop the oil and inspect the pan of oil in direct sunlight. A high degree of tiny shiny stuff swirling in the oil can tell you something. A certain amount of microscopic glinting will be normal, but chrome contamination is pretty obvious once you have seen it.
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.Strange that the 83mm is only available from them.When mine was operated on I had no choice really.
If you follow the link that Syd posted, at the bottom it says the 83mm kit isn't expected to be available until at least November. But the 88mm kit IS available, and same price.
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They both have chrome bores. I won't upgrade if I don't need to.
If you haven’t seen this thread & ongoing address of the original chrome plated cylinders of the comparably-equipped V7 Sport engine, you should read it and decide accordingly. At this point in time, this is not an issue of if but when failure will occur. The chrome plated cylinders have to be replaced along with anything else impacted by the situation. Doing less than a complete job will not solve the problem. I never knew so learned the hard way.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115513.0
There is no short cut if you want to ride one of these bikes.
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You can use a cheap boroscope to inspect the bores through the spark plug holes, but unless there are chunks of chrome missing it won't tell you much. The most common chrome bore failure is microscopic bits of chrome that pop off the walls, which can be difficult to see unless under magnification in good lighting. These bits flowing with the oil form a very destructive grinding medium that eventually destroys everything it touches.
You could drop the oil and inspect the pan of oil in direct sunlight. A high degree of tiny shiny stuff swirling in the oil can tell you something. A certain amount of microscopic glinting will be normal, but chrome contamination is pretty obvious once you have seen it.
Otherwise the other method is to take the cylinders out?
If you haven’t seen this thread & ongoing address of the original chrome plated cylinders of the comparably-equipped V7 Sport engine, you should read it and decide accordingly. At this point in time, this is not an issue of if but when failure will occur. The chrome plated cylinders have to be replaced along with anything else impacted by the situation. Doing less than a complete job will not solve the problem. I never knew so learned the hard way.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115513.0
There is no short cut if you want to ride one of these bikes.
So apparently replacing cylinders and pistons is a must that will costa around 1k… but if I have to prevent further damages I must consider it.
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So apparently replacing cylinders and pistons is a must that will costa around 1k… but if I have to prevent further damages I must consider it.
By Jove I think you've got it. :grin:
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So the price for each is 4.5 euro? Equals about $4,540 USD.. that price is too high if it was in the US.. and that’s why I suggested you just buy something ready to ride now..
You could get a pretty nice modern (for a Guzzi) small block for that money, no?
You really want carbs? How about a 90’s big block ? the FI big blocks from 98 on are superior in every way tho.
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So apparently replacing cylinders and pistons is a must that will costa around 1k… but if I have to prevent further damages I must consider it.
replacing the cylinders is the LEAST amount of parts & works that may be required. At this point, if the engine is running with original chrome cylinders, it will probably need more than just new cylinders, pistons & rings.
I only replaced my cylinders, pistons & rings, simply because my bike’s engine was frozen from being parked for a decade. I didn’t see damage below the rings and was not advised (almost 30 yrs ago) about the additional damage that may be present inside the engine. The bike ran great. But within a relatively short length of time, I had to pull and rebuild the entire engine- basically redoing everything expect the cylinders, rings and pistons- because of specific damage from chrome particulate that came from the original cylinder walls.
What you spend or don’t spend is up to you. You can get the bike and ride it until it blows- your bike, your rules. maybe you’ll get lucky for a while, but probably not in the long run. The chrome cylinders issue on these early bikes is not something that can be ignored without consequences. That’s why I linked the other thread. Many here hate to see a new Guzzi fan be given inadequate or inaccurate information. If we didn’t want you to have a good experience, we wouldn’t try to help you make well-informed decisions.
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replacing the cylinders is the LEAST amount of parts & works that may be required. At this point, if the engine is running with original chrome cylinders, it will probably need more than just new cylinders, pistons & rings.
I only replaced my cylinders, pistons & rings, simply because my bike’s engine was frozen from being parked for a decade. I didn’t see damage below the rings and was not advised (almost 30 yrs ago) about the additional damage that may be present inside the engine. The bike ran great. But within a relatively short length of time, I had to pull and rebuild the entire engine- basically redoing everything expect the cylinders, rings and pistons- because of specific damage from chrome particulate that came from the original cylinder walls.
What you spend or don’t spend is up to you. You can get the bike and ride it until it blows- your bike, your rules. maybe you’ll get lucky for a while, but probably not in the long run. The chrome cylinders issue on these early bikes is not something that can be ignored without consequences. That’s why I linked the other thread. Many here hate to see a new Guzzi fan be given inadequate or inaccurate information. If we didn’t want you to have a good experience, we wouldn’t try to help you make well-informed decisions.
Hi Clifford, thank you, I have just read that thread. What other damage can occur from chrome? What shall I suggest my mechanic to do and check?
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Hi Clifford, thank you, I have just read that thread. What other damage can occur from chrome? What shall I suggest my mechanic to do and check?
Just imagine filling your engine’s oil with very hard very fine abrasive. Then imagine what damage can be done by operating that engine for any period of time, especially at higher rpms for hundreds if not thousands or tens of thousands of miles. That’s what happens as the chrome plating on the bores fails and enters the oil stream. It typically happens over a long time, not all at once.
when the chrome bits enter the oil, everything they contact can be abraded and/or embedded depending upon the respective hardness. All bearings, crankshaft journals, oil pump, camshaft, followers and more can be damaged. If your engine has an actual oil filter (?), it may not be as bad. If no oil filter, the sludge trap in crank will quickly be filled and diminish in effectiveness. The engine should be stripped, fully inspected, fully cleaned and all necessary parts repaired/replaced. If the engine has not been operated for a long time, maybe there’s not much damage. But starting it even once after that long dormancy can cause even more serious & expensive damage.
It’s practical to expect a full engine rebuild and then be thankful if less is needed. THis is why purchase price can be so important. At approx $4500, the typical Guzzi owner would expect the engine to be fully sorted, chrome cylinders replaced, other engine issues addressed. Spending $3000 or more on a full engine service/rebuild is possible, but possibly less if you do the work yourself.
This isn’t some nasty or deliberate conspiracy. Moto Guzzi unknowingly used a technology that worked fine for the first 10-20 yrs before catastrophic failure became the norm. When it was clear that the chrome bore method was flawed, they changed methods. It’s part of what makes these early bikes exclusive now.
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BTW I also changed over the springs in the distributor to LM ones and retimed the bike to that spec at one point and it was sharper.The T 3 set up was likely due to emissions that the T was was having problems passing ( why that didn't effect the LM is anyone's guess ).
Not a guess, my friend, the US (California?) was only place at time it mattered, 1974-5 ?
T3, G5, Convert etc were compliant with recirculated breather into airbox. Le Mans and Le Mans 2 never were, hence the cx100 a compliant 950 in Le Mans 2 clothes
The Le Mans3 was first Le Mans to have such (ignition advance was not the issue ) and was therefore sold in USA
Of course many T3s have been converted to open breather but those that haven’t still have the hard to get at air filter too
Hi Clifford, thank you, I have just read that thread. What other damage can occur from chrome? What shall I suggest my mechanic to do and check?
Drop a telescopic magnet through plug hole, every chance cylinders have been changed a long time ago, to check if they’re big bore 950’s it’s easiest to drop sump and measure bore
Alright, the rear drum is good but of course I need to drive thinking I have a 50 years old rear brake style.
Not at all, with good linings, that brake is as good as it gets. Ride it as you would with a disc without abs
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Drop a telescopic magnit through plug hole, every chance cylinders have been changed a long time ago, to check if they’re big bore 950’s it’s easiest to drop sump and measure bore
Agreed. THe older Nikasil (sp?) cylinder replacement kits from Moto Guzzi had no external markings like the new Gilardoni kits do. You cannot tell what they are from the outside. I have those unmarked factory Nikasil cylinders on my V7 Sport. Gilardoni cylinders, like on my CX 100, have a small external pad with “Gilardoni” on it and are simple to identify.
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Once you have spent a portion of you kids college fund you will have a truly wonderful bike. I kept mine as an 850 and love it just the way it is even though its not a powerhouse.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRxkMdpC/IMG-1023-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tZYgPgLF)
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“Once you have spent a portion of you kids college fund you will have a truly wonderful bike“
As others have said, I’d buy either bike if all of the required work was performed by someone else but buying a T or T-3 for that kind of money and having to do all of this work. Nope. Find a later bike without all of those issues.
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If you follow the link that Syd posted, at the bottom it says the 83mm kit isn't expected to be available until at least November. But the 88mm kit IS available, and same price.
In stock and ready to ship: https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?products_id=3972
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you mentioned loving a 'V1000' above. By this I assume you mean the G 5, one of the two models that featured the V1000 graphic prominently, the other being the automatic Convert. Have you considered trying to find one instead? Stock with iron bores and 30 mm Dell'Orto carbs. Seems it meets your requirements and omits the chrome concern. Of course it leaves you with everything else a 45 yr old bike may require. Here in the US they are seemingly more plentiful and less expensive than a T or a T3 in good condition.
(https://i.imgur.com/2AFmHgA.png)
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you mentioned loving a 'V1000' above. By this I assume you mean the G 5, one of the two models that featured the V1000 graphic prominently, the other being the automatic Convert. Have you considered trying to find one instead? Stock with iron bores and 30 mm Dell'Orto carbs. Seems it meets your requirements and omits the chrome concern. Of course it leaves you with everything else a 45 yr old bike may require.
I've been wondering the same thing. I don't know if this one is still available, but I talked to this guy before I found the T3 California (with Gilardoni 949 kit installed) I ended up with. He seemed really nice and if it (the green bike in the photos) is still available, I think the price would be flexible.
https://www.subito.it/moto-e-scooter/varie-moto-guzzi-da-collezione-privata-pisa-432251563.htm
But this raises a question: The G5s we're made in 1980 correct (if not earlier)? Yet everybody seems to say they have cast iron liners. Buta T3 of the same year had chrome? When did Guzzi switch to nigusil/nikasil?
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I've been wondering the same thing. I don't know if this one is still available, but I talked to this guy before I found the T3 California (with Gilardoni 949 kit installed) I ended up with. He seemed really nice and if it (the green bike in the photos) is still available, I think the price would be flexible.
https://www.subito.it/moto-e-scooter/varie-moto-guzzi-da-collezione-privata-pisa-432251563.htm
But this raises a question: The G5s we're made in 1980 correct (if not earlier)? Yet everybody seems to say they have cast iron liners. Buta T3 of the same year had chrome? When did Guzzi switch to nigusil/nikasil?
949 cc round-fins had iron liners up until '80 (production), then went to Nigusil. The US-market 844 cc round-fins had chrome (other than the Le Mans). The US never got the T4 (not sure what it had) and the T5 was square-fin and Nigusil.
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Thanks Charlie! So a T4 MIGHT be a safe bet for Syd....
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My G 5 (pictured above) is a '79 (12/78 build) with iron liners. Same block as the Converts that had been in service since '76.
T4 does sound like it splits the difference. Not sure what country Syd is in...
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T4 does sound like it splits the difference. Not sure what country Syd is in...
He's in Italy.
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From FrenchfrogAbout the same experience with my T-3 except I made it to about 70K. I did not rebalance either and notice a bit more vibration. If I had to do it over again I would have also had the crank balanced. Going on 40K after the engine redo and running great.
GliderJohn
I’d go for the bike that is in better shape or the one you just like better all else being equal. Once you get it home it won’t be a comparative exercise. Plan on a cylinder job and look carefully at brakes, bearings, fuel lines etc. I think that either bike will be a great looker and cool reliable transport.