Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zenermaniac on October 30, 2022, 01:02:35 PM
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Has anyone ever added an oil sight glass to a small block? What problems does it entail?
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Has anyone ever added an oil sight glass to a small block? What problems does it entail?
Do you mean something like a V85 ?
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Do you mean something like a V85 ?
Can’t say - I haven’t seen a V85. Only a couple Guzzis in my area. Many of my previous Jap bikes had oil sight glasses and I wondered about adding one to my ‘17 Roamer. It would be a lot easier when you just want to do a quick check. I’ve seen various sight glasses on industrial supply web pages and got to thinking.
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Maybe I should think less and go ride. Lol.
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Maybe I should think less and go ride. Lol.
Not necessarily mate.
I consider my V85 and Norge to be better bikes than as I bought them after modifications and I met a Guzzi engineer in Mandello recently that did not disagree. But it’s all in the fun.
Do both.
Think a lot AND ride more…. :thumb:
Don’t be reluctant to make the changes you want, it’s your bike.
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I’m all for fiddling to make improvements, to a point. But cutting a hole in your block to install a sight glass is just nuts. Where would you even begin to place it so you can read the proper oil levels (high, low)? As mentioned earlier, what if it doesn’t stay put?
Move on, or buy a bike with one. Granted, they’re very convenient. But stick to your stick.
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The V7 850 has a sight glass.
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I don't see the ROI personally.
BUT - that's cause I don't have a machine shop.
I mean we've been told that the block is essentially the same cast on the V7/V9 as the V85 - like the V85 has (for no other reason) and unused open passage through the middle of the block where there's an engine mount on the V85.
But wait wait wait? Is the site window in the block or the pan on the V85?
If it's in the Pan couldn't you in theory buy a spare pan to drill and tap for a glass?
Or buy a pan from a V85 to see if it can be made compatible?
I believe there's a pretty big lubrication system difference between the two, but again IF it is true that the block is the same maybe there's a road to accomplishing this.
I can at least see the draw.
And if we're talking drilling an oil pan the "risk" is a lot less than the block no?
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My Triumph has a sight glass but no dipstick. It's a real pain as it doesn't have a center stand. I have to put it on my lift so that the bike is level to be able to check the oil. I don't have anyone handy with a modicum of mechanical expertise to help me. Maybe this winter I could get a spare filler plug and devise some type of dipstick.
kk
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My Triumph has a sight glass but no dipstick. It's a real pain as it doesn't have a center stand. I have to put it on my lift so that the bike is level to be able to check the oil. I don't have anyone handy with a modicum of mechanical expertise to help me. Maybe this winter I could get a spare filler plug and devise some type of dipstick.
kk
I love the sight glass on our Duc. No center stand on that either...but the glass is on the upside of the bike when it's on the side stand. So I stand crouch on the right, pull gently on the bar until it is upright and instantly see what I always expect since it doesn't burn a drop between oil changes. Very convenient. I'd check the oil way more often in the smallblocks if it was the same.
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I was riding with my sons in New Mexico about six years ago when my older son dropped back and it was a few miles before we stopped and turned around to find him at the side of the road, near the only gas station in any direction on an Indian reservation. His KLR 650 would turn over but would not start. I quickly found the problem, the oil sight glass had fractured and the oil was pumped out in seconds. No compression, the engine was destroyed. After a very long and ridiculously expensive towing trip we got back to Phoenix. In due course I pulled the motor apart, seized piston, seized cams, valves, etc, utterly destroyed motor, never seen anything like it before or since.
A rock had been kicked up and probably ricocheted off the crash bar to find the sight glass, what’s the odds?
I like the ease of viewing the oil level through a sight glass but I am happy to not have one on any other bikes I regularly ride. The only other bike I own with a sight glass is my 1974 Benelli 650S.
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I was riding with my sons in New Mexico about six years ago when my older son dropped back and it was a few miles before we stopped and turned around to find him at the side of the road, near the only gas station in any direction on an Indian reservation. His KLR 650 would turn over but would not start. I quickly found the problem, the oil sight glass had fractured and the oil was pumped out in seconds. No compression, the engine was destroyed. After a very long and ridiculously expensive towing trip we got back to Phoenix. In due course I pulled the motor apart, seized piston, seized cams, valves, etc, utterly destroyed motor, never seen anything like it before or since.
And I was gonna use my KLR as an example of a bike with a convenient sight glass..... :grin: :grin:
Crash bar installation is scheduled for this winter, too! :shocked:
'Course my BMW K75S, and my Triumph Trophy both have oil sight glasses, too.
-Stretch
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A bit of sanity needed here. I too have a Roamer, no sight glass. No doubt, sight glasses are great, the 78 Suzuki had one, and that 44 years ago!
But punching a whole in your motor to put your own Rube Goldberg in, are you whacked??
I have had 4 Guzzi2 big block, 2 small, and none of them used, essentially any oil. I have pretty much stopped checking the oil level. After an oil change, I’ll check it after a 100 miles or so, if it’s still up, and it always is, I forget about it until the next year.
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Ive two small blocks , A V7II 7 a V7/850 . One w/dipstick , one w/sight glass . I find the dipstick easier to use . That said I bought an extra dipstick type cap & have it on the 850 ! The levels agree between the two bikes .
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Akin to drilling a hole below the waterline of a perfectly good boat.
Larry
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Akin to drilling a hole below the waterline of a perfectly good boat.
Larry
So many bad analogies ... :rolleyes:
... unless you meant to install a bow thruster. Then yes, that would be the similar. :tongue:
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I recommend filling your bike to the level you want to run. then let it sit on the side stand overnight. In the morning pull the dipstick and mark the oil level with a band of white paint.
Now the bike oil level is inspect able while on the side stand, requiring no assistance or leveling...
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So many bad analogies ... :rolleyes:
... unless you meant to install a bow thruster. Then yes, that would be the similar. :tongue:
Wrong again Grasshopper. It’s a fine analogy. I’m willing to bet that the number of folks who have personally drilled a whole in their boat to install a bow thruster, is equal to the number who have installed a sight glass, ZERO!
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Just checked, the glass in in the block.
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Wrong again Grasshopper. It’s a fine analogy. I’m willing to bet that the number of folks who have personally drilled a whole in their boat to install a bow thruster, is equal to the number who have installed a sight glass, ZERO!
The number of people who "personally" drill a "*HOLE" in their hulls vs the number of people who modify their engines has nothing to do with the crappiness of the analogy.
The analogy attempted to deride the concept of drilling a boat hull as stupid on its face, but it is obviously not.
Now as I said in the beginning of this thread I don't really see the ROI, but I get the interest and concept. I would think it more realistic IF indeed the glass was in the pan and not the block as Cam just confirmed, but alas I have seen enthusiasts (some here) attempt (and pull off) much more complicated things.
I don't have a dog in this hunt as I don't do machine work. But again it's not a crazy concept on its face. It might not be even possible on a given block, but not crazy in and of itself.
Maybe a couple of the curmudgeons around here could at least give the guy a chance without just outright dismissing it.
Dirk has at least one spare block these days. Maybe when he's done with one someone could examine it closer to examine feasibility.
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My Triumph has a sight glass but no dipstick. It's a real pain as it doesn't have a center stand. I have to put it on my lift so that the bike is level to be able to check the oil. I don't have anyone handy with a modicum of mechanical expertise to help me. Maybe this winter I could get a spare filler plug and devise some type of dipstick.
kk
Same is true for my Duc but I do have a rear stand. When I'm traveling I need someone to hold the bike level since the bike uses a quart for 4-5k miles.
I've seen guys that are able to grab the bike by the fork and peg and do it themselves. I tried to do it but my courage gave up before my strength, the thought of a bike falling me freaked me out. I'll bet there guys here that can do that.
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Dirk has at least one spare block these days. Maybe when he's done with one someone could examine it closer to examine feasibility.
Happy to hand this paperweight off for R & D. The wear marks at the thrust washer seats make it all but useless to me.
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So many bad analogies ... :rolleyes:
... unless you meant to install a bow thruster. Then yes, that would be the similar. :tongue:
Amen! :grin:
As Yoda would say, you gotta learn to conquer your fear!
on the plus side, if anyone drills a hole in their boat hull, or their engine cases and sinks the boat or trashes the engine, they'll have a great story to tell for the rest of their life!!!
maybe the could even post something on the internet....... :wink:
Now that I think about it, there is no down side......
I wonder if the engine on the Titanic had an oil sight glass...... :blank:
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I recommend filling your bike to the level you want to run. then let it sit on the side stand overnight. In the morning pull the dipstick and mark the oil level with a band of white paint.
Now the bike oil level is inspect able while on the side stand, requiring no assistance or leveling...
Winner winner Chicken dinner.
I've done this on several bikes where the manufacturer recommended an oil checking procedure that required you to run the engine a specified time first, then shut off the engine, then wait a specified time, prior to checking the oil.
But I would recommend using a file or a hacksaw to cut a notch in the dip stick. Not sure how long the paint would last.
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The number of people who "personally" drill a "*HOLE" in their hulls vs the number of people who modify their engines has nothing to do with the crappiness of the analogy.
The analogy attempted to deride the concept of drilling a boat hull as stupid on its face, but it is obviously not.
Now as I said in the beginning of this thread I don't really see the ROI, but I get the interest and concept. I would think it more realistic IF indeed the glass was in the pan and not the block as Cam just confirmed, but alas I have seen enthusiasts (some here) attempt (and pull off) much more complicated things.
I don't have a dog in this hunt as I don't do machine work. But again it's not a crazy concept on its face. It might not be even possible on a given block, but not crazy in and of itself.
Maybe a couple of the curmudgeons around here could at least give the guy a chance without just outright dismissing it.
Dirk has at least one spare block these days. Maybe when he's done with one someone could examine it closer to examine feasibility.
amen again.
You have summed up most of the internet perfectly in one post.
That's why we all keep going back. If you don't learn something new from others, at least it is an entertaining mode of interaction.
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Maybe a couple of the curmudgeons around here could at least give the guy a chance without just outright dismissing it.
Now THAT is fair..
My comment was that I wondered as to the possibility of fitting the glass with enough integrity so as to preclude the chance of it falling out, with immediate and disastrous consequences.
However upon reflection, if you were to get a donor engine and take the piece out where the glass was fitted and weld it into your own bike, that could be dressed and finished to look ok…(presumably).
The level of the oil when properly replenished, would need to be plotted to determine the sight of the modification, but it would at least be sound mechanically.
I’ve done similar things that had to be abandoned….
Remember this ?
(https://i.ibb.co/CbWTx5f/F23919-FE-EC11-4-F93-A6-C6-1-E0-AC721-B3-D5.png) (https://ibb.co/CbWTx5f)
That was to get the speedometer accurate on my V85 and it did, but there was an unwanted side effect.
Point is..
If I had reduced my speedometer error to zero, my efforts would have been lauded. Our guy should be supported because he is interested enough to try and improve his lot, instead of just coping with what he was given.
That is what sets us above BMW riders, who get a flat tyre and have to call for someone to come and fix it.
Good on you for pondering the feasibility of such a venture, my only reservation was the risk/reward ratio.
But I’m reminded of guys back in January 2016 who said to me …..”Why do you need wire wheels on your Norge…?”
My reply ?
“I do it because I can and you can’t…”
That’s horribly arrogant but in the majority of cases true.
I would bet my arse that if our guy pulled it off, he’d have guys here PM’ing him asking to swap their hole-less pan for his holey (sic) one.
It happened with my low resistance throttle drum on the ‘85.
I’ve switched my response a bit and am with Kev on this.
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Now THAT is fair..
My comment was that I wondered as to the possibility of fitting the glass with enough integrity so as to preclude the chance of it falling out, with immediate and disastrous consequences.
I believe they are readily available to purchase with threaded inserts.
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Amen! :grin:
I wonder if the engine on the Titanic had an oil sight glass...... :blank:
Yes it did SRE…
That’s why it sunk, the iceberg cracked the glass and the water dribbled in… :popcorn:
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I believe they are readily available to purchase with threaded inserts.
Did not know that Kev.
A better idea for sure.
You know Kev, some people learn to run from a problem…
Some learn how to defend and face it, that’s why your belt is a different colour than most…. :wink: :bow: :thumb:
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Now THAT is fair..
My comment was that I wondered as to the possibility of fitting the glass with enough integrity so as to preclude the chance of it falling out, with immediate and disastrous consequences.
However upon reflection, if you were to get a donor engine and take the piece out where the glass was fitted and weld it into your own bike, that could be dressed and finished to look ok…(presumably).
The level of the oil when properly replenished, would need to be plotted to determine the sight of the modification, but it would at least be sound mechanically.
I’ve done similar things that had to be abandoned….
Remember this ?
(https://i.ibb.co/CbWTx5f/F23919-FE-EC11-4-F93-A6-C6-1-E0-AC721-B3-D5.png) (https://ibb.co/CbWTx5f)
That was to get the speedometer accurate on my V85 and it did, but there was an unwanted side effect.
Point is..
If I had reduced my speedometer error to zero, my efforts would have been lauded. Our guy should be supported because he is interested enough to try and improve his lot, instead of just coping with what he was given.
That is what sets us above BMW riders, who get a flat tyre and have to call for someone to come and fix it.
Good on you for pondering the feasibility of such a venture, my only reservation was the risk/reward ratio.
But I’m reminded of guys back in January 2016 who said to me …..”Why do you need wire wheels on your Norge…?”
My reply ?
“I do it because I can and you can’t…”
That’s horribly arrogant but in the majority of cases true.
I would bet my arse that if our guy pulled it off, he’d have guys here PM’ing him asking to swap their hole-less pan for his holey (sic) one.
It happened with my low resistance throttle drum on the ‘85.
I’ve switched my response a bit and am with Kev on this.
Well said.
Everything that one is afraid to do, or at least a task that one perceives as a high risk of failure with large costs, one will often call stupid.
But when the other guy pulls it off successfully, we all, at least secretly admire that skill and daring.
Obviously, millions of oil sight glasses have been successfully installed in engines and even brake master cylinders!!!
No magic required! Just due diligence.
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Did not know that Kev.
A better idea for sure.
You know Kev, some people learn to run from a problem…
Some learn how to defend and face it, that’s why your belt is a different colour than most…. :wink: :bow: :thumb:
Agreed.
Huzo and Kev M are among two of my favorite Wild Guzzi posters!
Weird, but when you type that out, it seems like a low bar to clear.... :evil:
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No, that’s where you’re misguided Kev. It is crazy, you are right about ROI being abismal, however.
Sure, someone who knows what they’re doing, and has access to the right tools could do it, but clearly the OP does not, hence his questioning here.
You know the old saying, tossed about fairly often round these parts, “just because it can be done, doesn’t mean it should. “
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Akin to drilling a hole below the waterline of a perfectly good boat.
Larry
If the boat was PERFECTLY good, he wouldn’t perceive the need to bore the hole…
But it isn’t.
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Now that the seed has been planted.
Has anyone ever installed bow thruster in their Moto Guzzi?
I'm assuming it would require drilling a hole in the engine to get the bow thruster as close as possible to the center of gravity......
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Wrong again Grasshopper. It’s a fine analogy. I’m willing to bet that the number of folks who have personally drilled a whole in their boat to install a bow thruster, is equal to the number who have installed a sight glass, ZERO!
There might be some who’ve bored half a whole Chad.
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The only boring going on here is this conversation!
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There might be some who’ve bored half a whole Chad.
I know some half-assed people who have bored many holes! :wink:
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If I was going to install a bow thruster in a boat hull, I'd install it ABOVE the water line so there would be no chance of leakage!
That was easy!
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Now that the seed has been planted.
Has anyone ever installed bow thruster in their Moto Guzzi?
I'm assuming it would require drilling a hole in the engine to get the bow thruster as close as possible to the center of gravity......
If I’m in the mood for any thrusting, it’s usually more towards the stern… :wink:
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The only boring going on here is this conversation!
On the contrary Chad, you make it fun… :thumb:
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No, that’s where you’re misguided Kev. It is crazy, you are right about ROI being abismal, however.
Sure, someone who knows what they’re doing, and has access to the right tools could do it, but clearly the OP does not, hence his questioning here.
You know the old saying, tossed about fairly often round these parts, “just because it can be done, doesn’t mean it should. “
OK, you're not wrong about most of that.
But an expert is just a newbie who didn't give up.
You can't fail if you never give up.
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For those interested: https://www.mcmaster.com/sight-glass/
McMaster Carr seems to have everything!
Brian
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Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
I understand that the dipstick is aimed the topped oil at the center. So regardless of being on the side stand, full will still show full. Now when the bike gets a little low it might not be as low as the dipstick indicates since the center level angle has dropped from the oil consumption.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
I understand that the dipstick is aimed the topped oil at the center. So regardless of being on the side stand, full will still show full. Now when the bike gets a little low it might not be as low as the dipstick indicates since the center level angle has dropped from the oil consumption.
Yes mate that’s true.
If you were going to commit to the job, you’d wait ‘till the bike needed an oil change and get it up to temp.
Bring it back and let it cool on the centrestand (I’d suggest).
Drain the oil and drop the pan.
You’ll be able to see the level on the inside from the grubby oil and presumably plot the position of the sight glass from there.
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My Triumph has a sight glass but no dipstick. It's a real pain as it doesn't have a center stand. I have to put it on my lift so that the bike is level to be able to check the oil. I don't have anyone handy with a modicum of mechanical expertise to help me. Maybe this winter I could get a spare filler plug and devise some type of dipstick.
kk
I got an extendable mirro with three LED lights on it so I can sit on the bike and look at the sight glass FYI. Little akward but it works.
https://www.amazon.com/Telescoping-Lighted-Flexible-Inspection-Viewing/dp/B01D4QMUVI/ref=asc_df_B01D4QMUVI/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312167978534&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7674694531903386784&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9015669&hvtargid=pla-570628610831&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Telescoping-Lighted-Flexible-Inspection-Viewing/dp/B01D4QMUVI/ref=asc_df_B01D4QMUVI/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312167978534&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7674694531903386784&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9015669&hvtargid=pla-570628610831&psc=1)
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Those industrial sight glasses are often made for high pressure boilers, they should hold up in an oil pan.
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For those interested: https://www.mcmaster.com/sight-glass/
McMaster Carr seems to have everything!
Brian
If it is in the McMaster-Carr catalogue, it is a sign from Heaven that it needs to be installed.
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Entertaining discussions here. On further musing and measuring I don’t believe I can machine a place for a sight glass in frame. At this time there’s no good reason to remove the engine for something this major. If at some point I have the opportunity to do it I will probably go ahead. Call me what you want but don’t tell me I shouldn’t do something. My parents gave up on that decades ago. I did learn something on this thread. Until y’all piqued my curiosity to Google it I didn’t know what a bow thruster was - lol. In Appalachia a bow thruster is an oar. :smiley:
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Entertaining discussions here. On further musing and measuring I don’t believe I can machine a place for a sight glass in frame. At this time there’s no good reason to remove the engine for something this major. If at some point I have the opportunity to do it I will probably go ahead. Call me what you want but don’t tell me I shouldn’t do something. My parents gave up on that decades ago. I did learn something on this thread. Until y’all piqued my curiosity to Google it I didn’t know what a bow thruster was - lol. In Appalachia a bow thruster is an oar. :smiley:
good on ya brother. Never let anyone tell you what you can and can not do! Especially a bunch of clowns on the internet.
Asking for advice is always wise, but you gotta know how to separate the wheat from the BS!
Custom marks (or drilled holes) on the dipstick may be the easiest acceptable solution. Only you can decide.
I added an "oil sight tube" to the oil tank on an Aprilia RXV550 (dry sump engine) which worked great, but still involves welding/machinng/fabrication.
Most of the fun of tinkering does not necessarily involve doing "what makes sense," but doing and creating what you want!
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My very first post was in January 2016 in response to an established luminary saying you couldn’t get wire wheels into a Norge…
Well……Ummmmm. :bow: :thumb:
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My very first post was in January 2016 in response to an established luminary saying you couldn’t get wire wheels into a Norge…
Well……Ummmmm. :bow: :thumb:
You know what they say about Internet advice..... You get what you pay for!
It all boils down to priorities and desires.
Plus those other pesky things like skillsets, time, money, resources, knowledge, blah, blah, blah.
Huzo, if you ever want to see an interesting threads of creative types, enter "ADVrider, some assembly required" into a search engine.
Some people, when they don't know that "a thing can't be done!" They just go ahead and so it!
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I've thought about using the tube style sight glass and putting it into one of the oil pan extenders for the V7. At least if that gets buggered, the pan can just be reinstalled and no loss other than a little $. Wondering if the crankcase is pressurized enough that a vented version wouldn't work, in that case the top end of the sight glass would need to feed back into the engine. Maybe a banjo bolt fitting somewhere?
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I've thought about using the tube style sight glass and putting it into one of the oil pan extenders for the V7. At least if that gets buggered, the pan can just be reinstalled and no loss other than a little $. Wondering if the crankcase is pressurized enough that a vented version wouldn't work, in that case the top end of the sight glass would need to feed back into the engine. Maybe a banjo bolt fitting somewhere?
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I have owned 7 different Guzzi's, each with a dipstick.
The dipstick enters the engine at an angle of about 45 degrees and dips below the surface mid-way across the sump
If you pull the dipstick on the side stand it will show the same level if you pull the dipstick with someone holding the bike Vertical
Because for any different quantity of oil at the mid point it will be the same level in the middle, try it with a glass of water.
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I've thought about using the tube style sight glass and putting it into one of the oil pan extenders for the V7. At least if that gets buggered, the pan can just be reinstalled and no loss other than a little $. Wondering if the crankcase is pressurized enough that a vented version wouldn't work, in that case the top end of the sight glass would need to feed back into the engine. Maybe a banjo bolt fitting somewhere?
With no knowledge of the bike in question (look at me! I'm an Internet Expert!)... I would suspect there is little to no pressure in the oil pan (does the bike have a crankcase breather?) other than downstream of the oil pump. Since the banjo bolt fitting is downstream of the oil pump, the pressure there will be high!
I'd feed the uphill end of the oil site tube into a valve cover or a high spot on the engine case.
Patented Disclaimer: "This opinion was posted with no knowledge of the bike in question!"
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I have '22 Bonneville. It has a sight glass that looks like a complete unit which is located in the side of the block. If you were to do this I would be darned sure you won't be drilling into a vital component and that the case is thick enough to support the part. The first time I drilled into the top of an old 4 cylinder Mercury outboard to add a fitting to eliminate a known steam pocket I was very nervous about it. The area in the block is blind so I couldn't see where I was going. It worked out for the best and now I do it to all my four cylinders. I want to add a dipstick to my Triumph, I don't like the sight glass. Too hard to see any thing and I don't have anyone to hold the bike up straight to look at it. It isn't in a gray location. I could check the oil while sitting on the bike with a dipstick. A project for is winter. Good luck, nothing ventured nothing gained. :laugh:
kk
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So many bad analogies ... :rolleyes:
... unless you meant to install a bow thruster. Then yes, that would be the similar. :tongue:
Having kicked around in the marine trades for over fifty years I've drilled many a hole below the waterlines of perfectly good boats. Swim platform brackets, trim tab installs, through hull fittings, underwater lights, and yes bow thrusters. My analogy was meant as, don't do it unless you have the necessary skills or engage the services of someone who does. Sorry you misunderstood. I should have been clearer in my statement.
Larry
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I have owned 7 different Guzzi's, each with a dipstick.
The dipstick enters the engine at an angle of about 45 degrees and dips below the surface mid-way across the sump
If you pull the dipstick on the side stand it will show the same level if you pull the dipstick with someone holding the bike Vertical
Because for any different quantity of oil at the mid point it will be the same level in the middle, try it with a glass of water.
This doesn't compute with my experience.
First I don't believe the dipsticks get to the lateral midpoint of the sumps, but I'll admit I haven't measured that yet.
What I DID do this morning was check my oil on the 2013 V7 Stone.
* On the side stand
* Then on the side stand with a 2x4 under the foot so the bike was just shy of upright.
I measured multiple times cold in each position.
I marked a cotton shop rag by placing the dipstick straight down on it, side-by-side for the different measurements.
The resulting oil stains were ~10 mm longer when on the side stand.
That represents at least the low to mid mark on the dipstick.
I can post photos later or tomorrow when I'm at my desk again (can't really do it well from this Google Pixel).
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Having kicked around in the marine trades for over fifty years I've drilled many a hole below the waterlines of perfectly good boats. Swim platform brackets, trim tab installs, through hull fittings, underwater lights, and yes bow thrusters. My analogy was meant as, don't do it unless you have the necessary skills or engage the services of someone who does. Sorry you misunderstood. I should have been clearer in my statement.
Larry
Mea-culpa for my misread. Then I was wrong and it was a great analogy.
I agree 100%
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This doesn't compute with my experience.
First I don't believe the dipsticks get to the lateral midpoint of the sumps, but I'll admit I haven't measured that yet.
What I DID do this morning was check my oil on the 2013 V7 Stone.
* On the side stand
* Then on the side stand with a 2x4 under the foot so the bike was just shy of upright.
I measured multiple times cold in each position.
I marked a cotton shop rag by placing the dipstick straight down on it, side-by-side for the different measurements.
The resulting oil stains were ~10 mm longer when on the side stand.
That represents at least the low to mid mark on the dipstick.
I can post photos later or tomorrow when I'm at my desk again (can't really do it well from this Google Pixel).
that is a great experiment and a great learning experience Kev! you continue to be one of my WG heroes!
Something everyone who has any doubts at all about proper oil level should perform on their own bikes!!
I suspect the reason the manufacturers don't advise the simple procedure of checking the oil level on the side stand is due to the possibility of owners changing tires, fork tube position in the triple clamps, rear shock preload or the shocks themselves, modifying the side stand, etc.
I suspect that the procedure of checking the oil with the bike straight up is difficult enough that many owners never bother.
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I’m all for fiddling to make improvements, to a point. But cutting a hole in your block to install a sight glass is just nuts.
Move on, or buy a bike with one. Granted, they’re very convenient. But stick to your stick.
x2
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Just took a worms-eye photo of the V7 II crankcase, centered, and dipstick installed, to see where the dipstick ends. Looks like about 3/4” of distance is still needed before it touches mid point. Stick ends maybe 2mm below the bottom half of the crankcase:
(https://i.ibb.co/Y8w3F7g/27-D2-C7-B6-ABAD-4-D21-90-A6-F9-CD5-F080-E7-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y8w3F7g)
(https://i.ibb.co/6Bm0TyZ/89660-FAF-D067-41-B3-8811-9-C0-D8920-DC4-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Bm0TyZ)
Could certainly be different on a V7 III
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good mix of opinions.
What I'm taking away from this thread is that some people are confident and comfortable performing relatively minor machining operations on their motorcycles and some people are not.
Probably no doubt due to whatever their past experience has been.
1. Some have not made many modifications.
2. Some have made modifications and they have not worked.
3. Some have made modifications and they have worked.
Thats the big guessing game. Are options 1, 2, or 3 influencing the commenters, and are the same options going to influence the OP?
Only the Shadow knows for sure......... :wink:
Modifying the old carpentry advice: "Measure 10 times and drill once!"
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Sooooo..... If Guzzis aren't supplied with center stands, why put the effort into checking the oil as if they did? Wouldn't Moto Guzzi say to check the oil with the bike upright and level? I check mine leaning on the side stand.
-AJ
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Simple..... Use a stepped bit, drill from the inside leaving a lip, then JB weld the proper sized glass from the inside......
What could go wrong? :evil:
Who checks their oil anyway? :boozing:
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Wouldn't Moto Guzzi say to check the oil with the bike upright and level?
On what model did they NOT say that?!?
(They say that on all the smallblock manuals I've read, and I thought theat was true on my big blocks but it's been a decade or so ...)
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I recommend filling your bike to the level you want to run. then let it sit on the side stand overnight. In the morning pull the dipstick and mark the oil level with a band of white paint.
Now the bike oil level is inspect able while on the side stand, requiring no assistance or leveling...
This is what I do, and find that for the 1200 Sport, Griso and Stornello that the High Mark for oil on the side stand is just below the 1/2 mark when properly upright. I do have a CS on the 12S and Stornello though, and none burn any old to speak of other than the Stornello in super hot stop and go summer riding, or long Highway high speed runs.
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On what model did they NOT say that?!?
(They say that on all the smallblock manuals I've read, and I thought there was true on my big blocks but it's been a decade or so ...)
I can't find any mention on the California's in the owners manual.
-AJ
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I can't find any mention on the California's in the owners manual.
-AJ
I just downloaded a "California EV 1100" owners manual from Cadre Cycles website.
Here's the text from the oil level checking page:
ENGINE MUST BE WARM TO CHECK ENGINE OIL LEVEL.
NOTE
DO NOT LET THE ENGINE IDLE WITH THE VEHICLE AT STANDSTILL TO WARM UP THE ENGINE
OIL AND REACH THE OPERATING TEMPERATURE OF ENGINE OIL. OIL IS BEST CHECKED
AFTER RUNNING FOR ABOUT 15 KM (10 miles).
• Shut off the engine.
• Keep the vehicle upright with both
wheels on the ground.
• Unscrew and remove the cap with dip-
stick.
• Clean dipstick.
• Refit the cap with dipstick into its hole
without tightening.
• Remove the cap with dipstick.
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I can't find any mention on the California's in the owners manual.
-AJ
And just in case you mean a Call 1400 (also from Cadre's PDFs)
Engine oil
Check
CAUTION
ENGINE MUST BE WARM TO CHECK ENGINE OIL LEVEL.
NOTE
DO NOT LET THE ENGINE IDLE WITH THE VEHICLE AT STANDSTILL TO WARM UP THE ENGINE
OIL AND REACH THE OPERATING TEMPERATURE OF ENGINE OIL. OIL IS BEST CHECKED
AFTER RUNNING FOR ABOUT 15 KM (10 miles).
• Shut off the engine.
• Keep the vehicle upright with both
wheels on the ground.
• Unscrew the filler plug / oil dipstick.
• Remove and clean the oil dipstick.
• Re-insert the oil dipstick without tight-
ening it.
• Remove the oil dipstick again and
check the oil level.
'MAX' = maximum level.
'MIN' = minimum level.
• The oil level is correct when it is close
to the 'MAX' mark. Otherwise, top-up
with engine oil.
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I guess it depends on where you download your manual from. I don't see any of that in the owners manual for the California EV on ThisOldTractor. Example, 2002 manual.
-AJ
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I guess it depends on where you download your manual from. I don't see any of that in the owners manual for the California EV on ThisOldTractor. Example, 2002 manual.
-AJ
:thumb:
Interesting - let me dig some more.
Looks like 2001-2003 has HORRIBLE WORDING in the OM - much less detailed than the later manuals I was citing.
LUBRICATION
Engine lubrication
Checking the oil level (fig. 23)
Check the crankcase oil level every 500 km; the oil
should reach the «Max» mark on the dipstick «A». If the
oil is below this level, top up with the recommended type
and grade of oil.
N.B. - The oil level check should be carried out
after the engine has run for a few minutes: the
dipstick plug «A» should be screwed up completely.
I always loved that line "screwed up completely" - yup, that probably summarizes it well.
Interestingly enough I have that same OM PDF on file in my old Jackal tech file folder. And the SM specifically says vehicle upright for both the transmission and final drive but DOESN'T mention it under engine oil. So either it was different on some Cali's or it's another case of poorly written Guzzi manuals (I would believe either at this point).
I'm gonna dig further....
HMM - interestingly enough that EV 1100 manual WAS a service manual and not an owner's.
The Cal-Vintage OM on Cadre's sight agrees with what you found AJ - that I assume is the same as I quoted in this text. Doesn't say to.
Checking other service manuals on Cadre's sight:
* B1100 - "upright with the two wheels on the ground"
* B750 - same
* Bellagio (why do they have the Bellagio on their site, weird) - same
* B1200 - same
* G1100 - same
* Nevada - same
* Norge 1200 - same
* Stelvio 1200 MY 11 - same
* Stelvio 4V - same
* Stelvio NTX - same
* V7C - same
* V7II - same
* V9 Bobber/Roamer - same
Interestingly enough, and I've noted this before - the Hemi head smallblocks say dipstick tightened, most/all of the later-model Heron head smallblocks say dipstick inserted "but not screwed in" but the B750 OM says "fully tightened" which is even weirder because both the Nevada and V7C OM's I checked say "not screwed in".
Now checking This Old Tractor for older stuff:
* 1000S - does not specify
* 1000SP - does not specify
* 850 Lemans - does not specify
* Cali 1100 2006 - does not specify
OK, I'm ready to throw out some theories.
1. We make much ado out of nothing - side stand vs upright, threaded or not - oil is good, not enough is bad, but all of those will mean there is enough.
2. Guzzi tech literature leaves a lot to be desired, but I WILL SAY that, like much of the rest of tech literature, it has gotten better over the years. Yeah the earlier ones didn't specify, but they also gave like 2-3 sentences when the later literature gives a full procedure with a half dozen or more steps.
About #2 - another thing you see in tech literature is no one reinvents the wheel or starts from scratch. I mean, at some point it was written from scratch and then for years (or decades) it is updated, changed. They change what they feel is important to change sometimes more than there is an actual technical change. It IS possible that they realized some people were underfilling on the sidestand because that will be less oil for the same level than if it was upright. Or they just got more anal retentive at some point about a more precise level and specifying upright became more important.
Another thing - maybe some of the old timers here with things like Ambos, Eldos, Lemans etc can say, when did crankcase breathers vented to the air cleaner become a thing on Guzzis. At what point do models start to carry over oil to the air cleaner? Maybe they just didn't care that much about oil level until THAT started to become a problem and then they realized they needed to work that upright thing into the manuals. It certainly seems that at some point THAT became a priority. Or the same tech literature guy wrote it once, then blocked and copied it into everything from then on (well that probably happened whether or not it was "necessary").
And there you have it.
Though I should add one more thing. I totally get the point of UPRIGHT and LEVEL meaning the oil level is more precise. Take my V7III for an example. Since we don't have a centerstand I checked it upright when we first bought it, then on the side stand and marked the dipstick so I could check on the side stand. That mark (I measured yesterday) is 10 mm above the full mark on the stick. That's exactly the difference I measured on my V7 MKI yesterday, 10 mm higher on side stand.
NOW HERE's the Payoff. I recently fabricated a new ~18-20 mm thick kickstand pad and attached it to the underside of the V7III's stand so that it doesn't lean so damn much anymore. Yesterday I realized when going to check my theories that the 10 mm mark I made is no longer valid. I made a mental note to use the OEM's upright mark instead now because it's closer to upright than it is to where it leaned.
MAYBE Guzzi was smarter than us for a change. Upright makes sense. I would say it's much ado about nothing, but these late-model smallblocks do seem to like to gather oil in the airbox. If you get enough it starts to play with the throttle body mounted sensors/servos. So maybe it's not much ado about nothing anymore.
OK, signing off... time to ride.
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I find the “upright and both wheels on the ground” a bit confusing. Since most bikes don’t come with a stock center stand where the rear wheel would be lifted, are they saying I shouldn’t check my oil while popping a wheelie?
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I find the “upright and both wheels on the ground” a bit confusing. Since most bikes don’t come with a stock center stand where the rear wheel would be lifted, are they saying I shouldn’t check my oil while popping a wheelie?
There's literally nothing confusing about that. It means upright and level, how you achieve that is up to you.
Hold it up (assistant)
Block it up.
Shop stand
Center stand but weighted at one end till level or blocked under tire at one end
It's not hard, pick one.
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something like this?
https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/gallery/5700-mile-1993-moto-guzzi-daytona-1000-flexes-termignoni-pipework-with-sheer-zest_8.jpg
used to be available on a deep sump.
i've got one on my le mans 2
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I don’t know about newer V7’s, but the pic I shared of the V7 II crankcase shows that the dipstick ends a couple hairs lower than where the sump begins. This means the ideal oil level tops off just above the sump. If we wanted to read the ideal oil level the same way we read the dipsticks on many of these machines (bike level with the horizon), the bored hole would either be too close to the bottom of the crankcase, or actually not even fit. Raising the sight glass might make it too high to read the oil level (at least when level with the horizontal plane). You’d most likely have to read the oil level at an angle, and either raise the sight glass on the left, or lower it farther into the sump on the right, like in that Le Mans photo.
Personally, if going through with a custom job, I’d rather risk damaging the sump than a crankcase.
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Most bikes do not come with a center stand, maybe half do, but I suspect it's less. Most Guzzi can be had with a side stand, if its not standard.
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This thread is funny. The more that gets posted, the more it gets funny. I did have the thought that if I wanted the "whole" hole then maybe I should take the engine out of the frame. :grin: :grin: :grin:
'course then again a half a hole is still a hole and could be a "whole" hole if all you want is a hole. If'n y'all want a "whole" hole to install a sight glass in the site so that you can read the oil level make sure that the site for the oil sight is proper for engine oil level sighting. Blah...blah....blah .....blah....... :grin:
Good luck on the quest to mod the bike. :thumb:
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It could get complex…
If you have the whole hole in the sump it will be too low and if you have half the hole in the sump and half the hole in the crankcase it’ll be hard to engineer.
Of course with the whole hole in the crankcase it’ll be to high.
The holy principles of holes says, the whole hole should be on one piece or the other, not half the whole hole in one and the other half of the whole hole in the remainder…. :popcorn:
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It could get complex…
If you have the whole hole in the sump it will be to low …
…Of course with the whole hole in the crankcase it’ll be to high.
Huzo, I’m curious how you come to either of these conclusions. Leaning on a center stand, the surface of the oil will be low on the right, and high on the left. Can you easily figure out where the oil level should reside on either side when sitting on the side stand?
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Leaning on a center stand, the surface of the oil will be low on the right, and high on the left.
But won’t the bike be level laterally on the centrestand, therefore giving a level surface ?
Looking at the issue of the whole hole holistically, maybe the solution is to have one on BOTH sides and average the results… :popcorn:
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But won’t the bike be level laterally on the centrestand, therefore giving a level surface ?
This forum feels a lot like family, because they too usually ignore what I’ve said. I wrote this just a couple responses above:
…You’d most likely have to read the oil level at an angle, and either raise the sight glass on the left, or lower it farther into the sump on the right, like in that Le Mans photo.
Nobody says you need to read oil in a custom installed sight glass with the bike at horizontal.
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I think I’ve come to the realisation that I’m more of a dipstick type of guy.. :wink:
Remember Enos from the “Dukes of Hazzard…”
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I wonder if the differences in oiling systems made the sight glass possible in the V85 and if those physical differences carried over to the new V7/V9 850 motors.
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I think I’ve come to the realisation that I’m more of a dipstick type of guy.. :wink:
Remember Enos from the “Dukes of Hazzard…”
No doubt here Mate!
I imagine you've been called "Dipstick" more than a few times in your life!
it's a badge that should be worn with pride! :wink:
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A former owner of my Norge put in a tube so that the oil level could be measured easily.
(https://i.ibb.co/zNdPw2N/oil-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zNdPw2N)
(https://i.ibb.co/Pr0NKFj/oil-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pr0NKFj)
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Better to be a dipstick than a dip$hit. :grin:
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Better to be a dipstick than a dip$hit. :grin:
Very true.
I just assume the person criticizing me can't tell the difference!!! :evil: