Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: DesertPilot on October 30, 2022, 06:21:25 PM
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As I noted so glumly a few weeks earlier, my V85TT has cleverly decided to shut down without warning 10-20 miles into a ride. Or 16-32 km into a ride, as the case may be. The engine would stop, fuel pump turn off, instrument panel go dark, and everything would stop, as if I'd just turned off the key. Then, 30 seconds or so later, it would light back up again. After checking the battery, fuses, voltages at the fuse box, connectors, main ground, ignition switch, seeking and receive some excellent advice from the forums, puzzling over the wiring diagram, and checking everything else I could think of, I threw in the towel, scheduled a service appointment, and and rode it to dealer. On surface streets. Which was fortunate because it shut down twice along the way.
I'm stumped. And since the bike is not safe to ride, if they can't come up with a fix I believe in, I'll face a bit of a poser deciding what to do with a new but unrideable bike that's one month out of warranty. I'll keep everyone posted if I learn anything useful that might be of help to others. Wish me luck...
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Wow sorry to hear that.
Keep us posted.
inditx
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As I noted so glumly a few weeks earlier, my V85TT has cleverly decided to shut down without warning 10-20 miles into a ride. Or 16-32 km into a ride, as the case may be. The engine would stop, fuel pump turn off, instrument panel go dark, and everything would stop, as if I'd just turned off the key. Then, 30 seconds or so later, it would light back up again. After checking the battery, fuses, voltages at the fuse box, connectors, main ground, ignition switch, seeking and receive some excellent advice from the forums, puzzling over the wiring diagram, and checking everything else I could think of, I threw in the towel, scheduled a service appointment, and and rode it to dealer. On surface streets. Which was fortunate because it shut down twice along the way.
I'm stumped. And since the bike is not safe to ride, if they can't come up with a fix I believe in, I'll face a bit of a poser deciding what to do with a new but unrideable bike that's one month out of warranty. I'll keep everyone posted if I learn anything useful that might be of help to others. Wish me luck...
I would take a voltmeter with me and next time it happens, take the seat off and check voltage across the battery, but not at the terminals.
Just down the leads as far as possible to make sure the leads are live.
Could you have a poor connection at the main fuse or dirty/poor connection of the leads to the terminals ?
When you lose power, does the horn work ? Sounds a bit like loss of battery connection and going off line.
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If I had to guess, I would suspect the side stand switch , I hope it turns out that simple, :popcorn:
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I would take a voltmeter with me and next time it happens, take the seat off and check voltage across the battery, but not at the terminals.
Just down the leads as far as possible to make sure the leads are live.
Could you have a poor connection at the main fuse or dirty/poor connection of the leads to the terminals ?
When you lose power, does the horn work ? Sounds a bit like loss of battery connection and going off line.
I've done that but the bike has always switched back on before I could get the voltmeter out. As far as I've been able to tell -- this involves pulling of the road as fast as I can and sticking my hand in front of the bike -- the headlight is staying on when the bike shuts down, which would mean the battery is still delivering power and the ignition switch is still working.
If I had to guess, I would suspect the side stand switch , I hope it turns out that simple, :popcorn:
I thought about that, but I don't believe that would shut everything completely off, including the instrument panel. After all, if you turn the key on with the sidestand down, the instrument panel does light up.
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What happens if you try and take off with the side stand down, or at a slow speed with no traffic around you give the side stand a nudge? Does it mimic the issue? I would agree that the dash shouldn't go blank. The kill switch may mimic what you describe, I would also check the 30 amp main fuse and it's connection.
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What happens if you try and take off with the side stand down, or at a slow speed with no traffic around you give the side stand a nudge? Does it mimic the issue? I would agree that the dash shouldn't go blank. The kill switch may mimic what you describe, I would also check the 30 amp main fuse and it's connection.
Those are all great suggestions, which i tried during the Unsuccessful Search For Answers. I checked all the fuses, spritzed them and their sockets with contact cleaner, and checked the voltage at the sockets when the bike was OK and things seemed fine -- since it would only stay shut down for 30-60s, I was never able to get my voltmeter out and the seat off in time to check it when it wasn't OK. The sidestand switch does not shut things down. As I recall, it only disables the starter. Since the bike is now at the shop right now, I can't check anything more right now.
Two things I cannot explain, but suspect are symptoms were 1) you always get close to 30 minutes riding time before the bike shuts down and 2) it turns back on after it sits for 30-60s, no matter what the sidestand position, day of the week, phase of the moon, etc. might be. Why that 30 minute delay? And why that spontaneous recovery? Since a similar problem occurred in February, which seemed to get fixed by uploading a new set of ECU software, I cannot help but suspect the ECU -- maybe it's ailing, but was temporarily restored to apparent normalcy by the software upload. I'd have no trouble springing for a new ECU if I cold be assured that was the problem. It;s the 'assured that was the problem' I worry about, since I did 'assured' once before back in February, and it didn't last.
And oh yes, sometimes, but not always, the ECU throws a random OBDI code, usually a compliant about the throttle body, that doesn't seem to have any relationship with the problem. A power interruption to the ECU might explain this... as might illness of the ECU itself. I imagine the shop has called Piagio and II may hear back from them Tuesday. We shall see...
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Well, on the voltmeter thing.
You could get the voltmeter and attach the leads to the terminals full time while taping the meter to the bike, then take an instantaneous reading when it quits.
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In the old days, before built in test equipment, BITE, made our lives so much easier :wink: , you sometimes could test components by heating them with a heat gun and maybe find a component that is failing with heat. Intermittent electrical problems are a challenge alright. It should be covered under warranty since the trouble started when it was in the warranty period.
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I suspect one of your relays is dropping out, I would wire a small lamp to the contact of every relay then you can see at a glance if one is dropping out. Use 12 Volt LED lamps.
My money would be on one of the injection relays (35) or (36)
If you can't find any 12 volt lamps use bare LEDs with a 1.2 k resistor in series
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2019_V85_TT.gif
I suspect this schematic is wrong, it doesn't show terminal 40/42
Find some nice small wire and just bare it and wrap around the relay pin
wire it relay pin to 1.2k resistor then resistor to the long LED lead with the short lead grounded.
It will take you a while to connect these little lamps but they are worth their weight in gold when it comes to troubleshooting.
mount all the LEDs on a plate and locate it where you can see it sitting on the bike.
(https://i.ibb.co/XC71wHG/EPSON002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XC71wHG)
This is something I have done on all my fuel injected Guzzi's, the little lights sit there putting on a light show and if ever I need it they will be there.
Good Luck
Update, I would also add a light to the 30 contact of the Start relay (28), that seems to be the same line that powers up the dash (pin 16)
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I suspect one of your relays is dropping out...
I didn't have an opportunity to do the Ever-Popular Relay Swap Test, because that would have involved a lot of riding around waiting for a failure, but upon physical examination, the relays did seem to click away and switch poles quite happily upon application of a voltage. Of course, this would not detect an intermittent failure unless one relay was kind enough to intermit (surely that is a word) at the precise moment it was examined.
...It should be covered under warranty since the trouble started when it was in the warranty period.
That's the line I'll be pursuing. I figure so long as I don't get grumpy, Piaggio wants a happy customer, the shop wants a happy customer, and I want a happy me, so we all have the same agenda. But in the end, I don't care too much how it all shakes out as long as the bike gets sorted. The way I see it, no one else's V85TT seems to have had this problem, so it has to be some weird little glitch in the electronics that's fixable after the prolonged period of frustration and agony that go with phrases like 'I'm sure I know where we are', 'that's funny, this program was running fine last time I used it', 'root canal work', and 'weird little glitch in the electronics' :grin:
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The idea of using lamps is they will show immediately if one of the contacts opens because the light will go out.
Take a scrap of metal and drill 3/16" holes 1/2" apart, glue an LED in each hole then solder a 1.2k resistor to each of the long leads
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Is your V85 one of the earlier bikes subject to a few minor recalls? Rider pegs, seal in the rear drive, etc. if so, Guzzi extended warranty out to 3 years for the hassle.
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It is not going to be something like a sidestand switch. Since the dashboard goes dark.
It is likely to be the ignition switch, a relay, or a fuse holder. Maybe a connection.
I would start by replacing the fuses and relays, looking closely at the relay sockets for heat damage. Maybe a little blast of Deoxit on them.
As Roy pointed out, a simple light bulb with wires on it is a great debug tool.
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At one time i had a Yuasa battery that was fairly new, but developed an intermittent internal discontinuity between the cells. Randomly the bike would just loose power. Finally discovered problem when, in frustration, I punched the battery and it came back to life.
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Thanks again for all the suggestions! I did make some attempt to check all the fuses and relays. While it's quite possible that my check might have been less than entirely adequate since this is the 21st Century -- a.k.a. The Century of Diminished Expectations -- I didn't spot anything obvious. I'd wondered if the fellows at Autozone might have made some mistake with the battery load test and the battery wasn't good after all, but the bike cranks and starts no problem, so there's plenty of power in that little plastic box, and since my experience has been that bad batteries usually finish dying die completely before I can even get out my checkbook -- hey, I'm a Greek, it takes us time to spend money -- I suspect this one is OK.
My thought is that since 1) a software upgrade seemed to fix the problem back in February and 2) I haven't heard of anyone else needing a software upgrade to fix such a problem, which suggests that the software itself was not at fault, maybe some memory in the ECU got corrupted, the software upgrade overwrote the bad byte ("Bad byte, Ecu! Bad byte! No dog biscuit for you!" :grin:), and now, six months later, some memory has gotten corrupted again. The only other thing I could think of would be some intermittent fault in the wiring harness or grounds that doesn't show up until the bike has bounced around over the road for 30 minutes or so interrupts power to the ECU, causing it to glitch and sometimes throw an OBDI code, but this 'it recovers by itself before I can get the multimeter out' bit has put paid to my attempts to check that one out.
This is a 2020 E4 bike, which probably emerged from the factory 5 minutes after the production runs that got the extended warranty because, as I noted above, this is the 21st Century, but I'm not too troubled by this. I just want to get a repair I can believe in, since I think we'll all agree that the alternative -- giving up and buying an Africa Twin -- is much too dreadful to contemplate!
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Since it's already back at the dealer hoping they can witness the problem themselves and find you a corrective action.
-AJ
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FWIW my thought is a failing battery cell too. I use the UpMap App on my V7 850, having remapped the ECU. One of the live displays it shows is ECU voltage. Mine shows 15 bolts or so after starting. There is a long thread elsewhere about poor r/r frying batteries, albeit on V7 IIIs. The fault could be internal breakdown in the battery. Still, it could be lots of others things too, so it’ll be interesting to see what the dealer comes up with. Good luck.
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I strongly recommend installing a Battery Voltmeter
Wire it across the park/city light. with a length of wire from an old wall wort (the small black pair) takes all the guesswork out of wondering if the battery is ok 12-14 Volts :thumb:
https://www.lightinthebox.com/en/p/brand-compatibility-type-usb-ports-for-output-voltage_p7490085.html?currency=USD&litb_from=bing_shopping&sku=1_6916&country_code=us&utm_source=bingshopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=bingshopping&msclkid=8de441c31ce512e7265822a242e2e511
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I think I would start frequenting pool halls in the city on the bike. Improve your game and maybe get lucky and someone will take care of your problem. :shocked: :boozing:
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At one time i had a Yuasa battery that was fairly new, but developed an intermittent internal discontinuity between the cells. Randomly the bike would just loose power. Finally discovered problem when, in frustration, I punched the battery and it came back to life.
As noted might it be a battery gone bad? Not that expensive to put a new one in and see what happens...
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As noted might it be a battery gone bad? Not that expensive to put a new one in and see what happens...
As mentioned, an on board full time voltmeter jury rigged for the moment she plays up, will drill straight into the root cause.
Wired in as Kiwi Roy says is easy and less than the cost of a battery you may not need.
Would be better than throwing parts at it, if you put a new battery in and it goes ok for some time, you still don’t know if that was your anomaly.
You’ll be unsure whether to go anywhere on it.
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The arguments against it being a battery problem seem to be
1) The battery passed a load test, which suggests it's doing better than merely holding voltage.
2) The battery would have had to be failing 30 minutes into a ride in just such a way as to make the ECU fail, shut down the bike, and throw a random OBD code back in February even though the alternator must have been alternating away quite happily, recover at exactly the same time the shop updated the ECU software, stay fine for 6 months, then start failing 30 minutes into rides again in much the same way in October. I know that batteries are weird, and can on occasion be possessed by demons, but some aspects of this behavior, such as the 'get better for six months after a software update, then flake out again' part, stretch my conception of battery weirdness and/or the ability of demons to possess them. This would also seem to be an argument against the Bad Ground Or Flaky Wiring Harness Hypothesis.
The shop. which is usually quite swift, has had the bike for several days without getting back to me, which suggests an element of perplexity on their part as well, but we shall see. I'll keep everyone posted as this by-now-strangely-fascinating saga develops.
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The battery is only as good as the leads and connections at each end…
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A battery passing the typical load test most shops would be able to perform does not necessarily mean it is good. Sometimes they require being subjected to longer term loading or charging before they open up… right in line with your statement that things are fine for 30 minutes and come back after a few seconds.
I’d be trying a new battery before I did anything else.
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An Important Clarification!
This is not a horror story! Quite the contrary! If anything, I am quite happy with the response I've been getting from my dealer and Piaggio, who got on top of things within 24 hours (!!!) back in February the first time this problem showed up and are doing the best they can right now, even as I type these words. Faced with what must be the nightmare scenario for any service department -- a rare intermittent electrical problem that as far as I can tell, no one else has ever seen -- they've been soldiering on in a way that reflects quite well on them, and compares favorably with pretty much every other dealer or service department I've ever dealt with over the past half century. These guys are good.
As for me, I'm more intrigued than anything else. I have another bike to ride while I wait for this one to get sorted, it's the beginning of rainy reason, when it's wise to stay off the road for a week or so anyway while 40 million Californians resume their acquaintance with the concepts of 'windshield wipers', 'reduced visibility', and 'wet pavement', and I'm sure I'll get the bike back in good running order soon, so my main feeling is one of curiosity -- what, I wonder, could possibly be going on? -- combined with hope that someone else might benefit from whatever the shop and Piaggio might learn.
I imagine I'll know more in a few days, I have every reason to believe the news will be good, I'll keep everyone posted, and thanks again for all the advice -- which assured me, among other things, that I'd checked pretty much everything I could with the means I had available.
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The battery is only as good as the leads and connections at each end…
Yup, I'm betting this is a loose or poor connection in the system, could be a plug, lead, ground, or bad battery, or connection at the alternator/regulator, even bad fuse or connection at the fusebox.
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I am confused by all these battery theories. Is moto guzzi doing something different? I have push started bikes with dead batteries, and jump started bikes with dead batteries and ridden the bikes for weeks like that when I was young. Once the bike is running, isn't the stator/alternator, and voltage regulator enough to keep the bike running?
How would a dead battery or a poor connection to the battery kill the entire bike as if the main fuse was blown or the ignition was turned off?
I guess I am missing something here.
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I am confused by all these battery theories. Is moto guzzi doing something different? I have push started bikes with dead batteries, and jump started bikes with dead batteries and ridden the bikes for weeks like that when I was young. Once the bike is running, isn't the stator/alternator, and voltage regulator enough to keep the bike running?
How would a dead battery or a poor connection to the battery kill the entire bike as if the main fuse was blown or the ignition was turned off?
I guess I am missing something here.
I thought the same thing. I thought once an engine was running the alternator did all the electrical work. But then figured I was just ignorant.
-AJ
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My V9 Bobber had the same issue. It was an intermittent ignition switch. Good luck.
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I am confused by all these battery theories. Is moto guzzi doing something different? I have push started bikes with dead batteries, and jump started bikes with dead batteries and ridden the bikes for weeks like that when I was young. Once the bike is running, isn't the stator/alternator, and voltage regulator enough to keep the bike running?
How would a dead battery or a poor connection to the battery kill the entire bike as if the main fuse was blown or the ignition was turned off?
I guess I am missing something here.
Actually I agree.
Once the alternator is on line you should have 13.2 V across the leads. But there may be a subtle thing that Kiwi Roy can add.
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A FWIW. Many many moons ago, before computer controlled cars. You could start a car/truck and remove the battery and it would still run and drive more or less normally. No, I don't remember if you could have the headlights on as well, but I think you could.
Now that the computer controls everything and the voltage need to be "just right", I do not think that you can remove the battery anymore.
To the OP, My money is on a bad ignition switch or if the dash has an ECU in it, the dash is failing when it gets warmed up.
OP, good luck!!!!
Tom
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A FWIW. Many many moons ago, before computer controlled cars. You could start a car/truck and remove the battery and it would still run and drive more or less normally. No, I don't remember if you could have the headlights on as well, but I think you could.
Now that the computer controls everything and the voltage need to be "just right", I do not think that you can remove the battery anymore.
To the OP, My money is on a bad ignition switch or if the dash has an ECU in it, the dash is failing when it gets warmed up.
OP, good luck!!!!
Tom
I don't think that the Dash has the ability to shut off the engine, I might be wrong
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2019_V85_TT.gif
look at the listing for the Dash connections, the only outputs are for the direction indicator lamps.
the main ECU however has lots of inputs that will cause a shutdown. for example engine revolution sensor, clutch switch
The Oil pressure sensor goes to the dash. Lack of oil pressure would be one reason for shutting down the engine but I don't think the Dash can pass that on to the main ECU
The Canbus lines can transmit a huge amount of data
It's been my experience with complex Industrial logic systems that shutdown logic usually requires a direct connection e.g a dedicated wire from the Dash to the ECU (not a can bus signal)
I wish Piaggio would give us a decent description of what's going on inside the ECU, it would make troubleshooting much easier
The ECU is very similar to an industrial Programmable Logic controller, anyone working with those is familiar with using a computer to troubleshoot the logic.
This V85 problem is very interesting, my money's on the engine position sensor shutting off the fuel pump and ignition, monitoring the injection relay will confirm that.
since the Dash goes Black monitoring the Injection relay 30 contact would show the 12 Volts to the dash shutting down.
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It sounds a bit morbid following the woes of DPs V85, when you don't own the same bike, but you learn stuff every time that could be read across to my V9
If ideas alone were enough to fix it this bike, it would have instantly surrendered. Bravo everyone :bow:
Good luck DP and please try and let us know what the root cause issue
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To the OP, My money is on a bad ignition switch...
That's high on my list as well. The very first time the bike shut down, my very first thought was, "Bad ignition switch." I had this happen before, on a crumbling old Kawasaki I owned back during the Reagan Administration -- I lost count of the number of times I had to push that ancient relic home -- and several decades of English sports car ownership taught me a certain skepticism regarding switches in general. Just because those things make that clicking sound doesn't mean they're always doing anything :grin:
...however...
If I understand the wiring diagram correctly -- a dubious proposition perhaps, but a man must have a dream -- the ignition switch on a V85 also connects directly to the headlights, and the headlights have seeme to stay on when the bike shuts off. Why 'have seemed to stay on', you may ask? Surely I should have been able to tell if my headlights were shining. You'd be amazed at how hard it is to do this on a bright sunny afternoon in California, particularly when you have only a few seconds to check. Often the bike turned back on before I could stop, hop off, and run around to look. And the alternative -- leaning forward to hold my hand in front of the headlight cluster while trying not to run into anything -- added an element of adventure to the data collection process that made the results less than entirely reliable.
Hmmm... I'm looking at the wiring diagram now, and it looks like the horn also gets power directly from the switch (Item 17), via a yellow wire that branches off to the Left Light Switch (item 6) before continuing to the Fog Lights Relay, Where Provided (Item 63). I should have tried tooting the horn! That might have told me if the switch was closed without all the futzing around trying to look at the headlights. Perhaps I don't toot my horn enough. Insufficiently assertive, that's always been my problem! A disgrace to my Southern European ancestors!
As I'm sure you've all guessed, this whole affair is becoming a source of amusement rather than frustration. It may not be numbered among the most delightful experiences I've ever had in my life, but the bike always got me where wanted to go -- a display of loyalty I feel should be rewarded with a repair -- I'm dying with curiosity to learn just what the shop will find, and that whole, "Lean forward to hold my hand in front of the headllghts to see if they're shining they seem to be on but wait! The bike just turned back on again well and I'm not sure if it id this before or after I got my hand in position! Darn!!" thing got so silly I just have to laugh. And it does beat standing by the side of the Mass Pike in February when it's well below freezing with the wind howling out of the northwest for two hours trying to track down an ignition fault on an old MGB.
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Breaking News: The shop left a message to let me know my bike is fixed -- pretty quick work for tracking down an intermittent electrical problem -- but I was stuck in a telecon and didn't find this in time to call back and learn what was wrong. I imagine I'll find out tomorrow.
The suspense builds...
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:popcorn:
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:popcorn:
I'm hoping it's something obvious, thanks for getting back.
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I’m hoping it isn’t something obvious; if it is, what does it say for the combined wisdom on this forum?😀 Anyway, I do hope it’s properly fixed and won’t recur.
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Drum Roll Please...
...and...
It's fixed! I picked my V85 up from the shop, took it out for 80 or so miles worth of test rides on surface streets, mountain roads, and a bit of freeway, and it ran fine. I can live with this! :thumb:
I'm quite impressed with how the Spirit Motorcycles handled the problem I so blithely dumped on them. I handed their shop the Service Issue From Hell -- "Oh joy, an intermittent electrical problem! What could be more delightful? Can I get some root canal work instead?" -- and judging from their report, they had quite the adventure doing test rides to reproduce the problem. Which they eventually tracked down to...
...a bad connection to the so-called 'Primary Fuel Injection Relay'.
Was this obvious? Yes and no. It was the obvious thing to check, but when I checked it myself, it seemed OK, which seems like a bit of cheating by the relay. The morals of this story may be:
1) You fellows were right.
2) I didn't check the relays carefully enough. Darn it.
3) When pulling and replacing things to check connections, dielectric grease is your friend. I may have been living without the stuff since the Nixon Administration, but I really should buy a tube some day. I'll get around to it this time! Really! I promise!
4) Ignore some of the names on the wiring diagram. They were translated into English from the Language of Machiavelli. The so-called 'Primary Injector Relay' doesn't actually connect to the fuel injectors. Instead, it seems to use a signal the key to close a circuit between the battery power and pin 40 on the ECU, and via a circuitous route, pin 42 as well. Both bear the cryptic label 'key input', which I now.. belatedly... understand to mean 'power supply'. The relay also seems to supply power to the Instrument Panel, Starter Relay, Secondary Injector Relay, Left and Right Lambda Probes, so much other stuff that I really need a beer before I try to track the rest down, which means it's more of a 'We Only Called It That To Fool You Relay'.
Number 4 may be the take-away here. If the bike is shutting down and it seems like power to the ECU is getting cut off, the 'Primary Power To Pretty Much Everything On The Bike Except The Actual Injectors Relay' is indeed a potential culprit.
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Awesome! Glad it was a happy ending.
-AJ
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Did the shop just clean the contact or replace the relay?
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Did the shop just clean the contact or replace the relay?
They cleaned the contact, gooped the old relay with dielectric grease -- or greased it with dielectric goop, as the case may be -- then plugged it back in. I'm going to add a spare set of relays to my next order from AF1 because members of my tribe are known for their rustic tradition of filling their hovels with spare vehicle parts they'll never use and never really needed in case there's a zombie epidemic or something, but I'm not too worried the old one might be flaking out. I might even stop by the hardware store this time to pick up some of that dielectric grease I've been forgetting to buy for so many years... if I remember... because a man must have a dream...
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Hey DP, glad to hear of the positive (get it) outcome on your dilemma. Now to save what little sanity you may have left, Do NOT buy dielectric grease for these terminals! Dielectric grease by its nature will not conduct electricity and should only be used externally on connectors. There are several good Conductive greases on the market that allow electron flow and keep out moisture to prevent corrosion. The cheapest is Vaseline, used sparingly it seals out the bad stuff. Caig De-oxit works great for cleaning terminals, fuse boxes. sockets anywhere you need to remove the corrosion, and then seal it with Vaseline or conductive grease. My $.02
Paul B :boozing:
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Hey DP, glad to hear of the positive (get it) outcome on your dilemma. Now to save what little sanity you may have left...
Right. I'll just nip off now and find somewhere to gibber :laugh:
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Drum Roll Please...
...and...
It's fixed! I picked my V85 up from the shop, took it out for 80 or so miles worth of test rides on surface streets, mountain roads, and a bit of freeway, and it ran fine. I can live with this! :thumb:
I'm quite impressed with how the Spirit Motorcycles handled the problem I so blithely dumped on them. I handed their shop the Service Issue From Hell -- "Oh joy, an intermittent electrical problem! What could be more delightful? Can I get some root canal work instead?" -- and judging from their report, they had quite the adventure doing test rides to reproduce the problem. Which they eventually tracked down to...
...a bad connection to the so-called 'Primary Fuel Injection Relay'.
Was this obvious? Yes and no. It was the obvious thing to check, but when I checked it myself, it seemed OK, which seems like a bit of cheating by the relay. The morals of this story may be:
1) You fellows were right.
2) I didn't check the relays carefully enough. Darn it.
3) When pulling and replacing things to check connections, dielectric grease is your friend. I may have been living without the stuff since the Nixon Administration, but I really should buy a tube some day. I'll get around to it this time! Really! I promise!
4) Ignore some of the names on the wiring diagram. They were translated into English from the Language of Machiavelli. The so-called 'Primary Injector Relay' doesn't actually connect to the fuel injectors. Instead, it seems to use a signal the key to close a circuit between the battery power and pin 40 on the ECU, and via a circuitous route, pin 42 as well. Both bear the cryptic label 'key input', which I now.. belatedly... understand to mean 'power supply'. The relay also seems to supply power to the Instrument Panel, Starter Relay, Secondary Injector Relay, Left and Right Lambda Probes, so much other stuff that I really need a beer before I try to track the rest down, which means it's more of a 'We Only Called It That To Fool You Relay'.
Number 4 may be the take-away here. If the bike is shutting down and it seems like power to the ECU is getting cut off, the 'Primary Power To Pretty Much Everything On The Bike Except The Actual Injectors Relay' is indeed a potential culprit.
Words fail me
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Dielectric! It's in the name. Coats wires internaly insulating individual strand from each other decreasing capacity for energy transfer and coats contacts in relays and causes failure from loss of contact. Better not get it near an aircraft or military vehicle. BMW car mechanics have had problems with computer circuits as well. It belongs in the cap and rotor systems and spark plug caps of automobiles but that's about it. All this is just my opinion and experience but there is evidence out there. Not trying to rain on the parade, you will probably never have a problem but others here have.
Flame suit on!
Brian
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I rather suspect they might have meant 'electrically conducting glop' or something similar. Which people here call be the wrong name, because 1) 'dielectric' has the word 'electric' in it and 2) the era when Silicon Valley made hardware, components, or anything connected with actual physical reality was three or four tech booms ago. If it was Big Data or Machine Learning Grease, I'm sure we'd get the name right :laugh:
I am going to line up a few spare relays though. They're cheap enough, I need to order some other stuff anyway, and you never know when there might be a zombie epidemic.
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Glad it got sorted. Can't count the number of times just unplugging and replugging everything including fuses and relays 'fixed' an issue. I've use DE grease for years, and find that over time it caulks up where Vaseline doesn't. I've also heard but not experienced it creeping up the wires to foil relays or circuits. Urban legend IMO. Goal is to keep connections from oxidizing and corroding and breaking contact.
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DP: Try "Pyro Dan's Place" in Beaver Dam Wisconsin for GEI relays. Dan is a Guzzi fancier and an electronics specialist. I have used his relays for years and they and shipping are very modestly priced.
Ralph
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I suspect there is something wrong with the V85TT drawing in Carl's collection, it doesn't even show a terminal 40 or 42 on the ECU although it does mention them in the key.
Actually the terminals marked on the drawing as 70/72 must really be 40/42
The Injection relays close and supply power to the fuel pump, coils and injectors so of course if these relays drop out the motor stops dead in it's tracks
A tiny lamp connected to the output contact of the relay will indicate loss of power if the relay drops out.
If you look at Carls 2016 Audace, the ECU there has the appropriate terminals 40/42 and the writeup seems to make sense
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2016_Audace.gif
Does someone have a V85TT schematic from a different source?
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Does someone have a V85TT schematic from a different source?
I got the V85 circuit diagram from ThisOldTractor as well
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/wiring_diagram_v85-tt_en-it-fr-de-es-nl-el.pdf
Pins 40 and 42 are in the middle of the ECU (Item 53). If one traces the leads (R/W wire to pin 40 and R/N wire to pin 42) and does a bit of head-scratching, one discovers they get power from the R/M wire from pin 30 on the Yes It Is A Rather Misleading Name Relay (Item 36). The route from that to pin 40 is fairly direct, by wiring diagrams for Italian vehicles standards -- do not, ever, try to sort out the diagram for an old Fiat because this can only lead to tears -- and supplies power to a zillion other things including the If You Stop To Think About It This Is The Real Injector Relay (Item 35), but the route to pin 42 is sufficiently circuitous that I did not, at first, notice the connection. The Yes It Is A Rather Misleading Name Relay gets its power from the R/Bi wire to pin 87 that branches from the battery input to the ignition switch (Item 17). Whew! I'm going to go have breakfast now and drown all these dire memories in a mug of hot chocolate :grin:
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This is a better read than many, many books that I have read!
Thanks!
Tom
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Kudos for you Mr pilot, for sticking with it, and also for the dealer for actually finding it! Best of luck!
Scott
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Kudos for you Mr pilot, for sticking with it, and also for the dealer for actually finding it! Best of luck!
Scott
Damn right and for maintaining an upbeat and positive tone to your comments… :bow: :thumb:
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The way I see it, one has to stay positive when things like this crop up. Yes, they can be annoying, but it doesn’t do much good to get angry, and when one has just dumped some diagnostic nightmare like an intermittent electrical problem in the shop’s lap (“Oh gee, thanks!”), it’s in everyone’s interest to get through the adventure with as little grief as possible. It helps that I have a very good shop that would be almost within walking distance if I didn’t mind walking 11 miles through west San Jose (see note above about, “Oh gee, thanks!” :grin:), but even if I didn’t, the problem was going to get fixed, I was going to get a working bike back, and no matter how frustrating things might have seemed at the time, a few weeks down the road, this was all going to be just a great story.
By way of comparison, thirty years ago, things went wrong while I was hang gliding at Big Sur (full story here (http://paulgazis.com/Borderlands/Borderlands.htm)) and as Ernest K Gann put it in Fate is The Hunter, I was granted a glimpse of something only a few dead men have seen. A wall of cloud formed between me and the LZ, I got whited out, spent several long minutes waiting for some unseen wall of rock to reach up and claw me out of the sky, and when I finally broke free, I had to stuff the glider on a hillside miles from nowhere. It took me two hours to crawl through thick brush to something that resembled a trail, and another three to find my way back to civilization. I wasn't entirely thrilled at the time (whimp!), but toward the end, as I was limping down the final stretch of ancient jeep trail, and it was clear I was going to survive, I thought, “Paul, you are having an adventure! People pay money to watch movies about adventures like this, and here you are, getting to have one for free! You should enjoy it!"
I didn’t, of course :grin: But that thought did put things in perspective, and since then, I’ve tried not to take life too seriously.
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I don't remember where or who said it on one of the forums I visit but "breakdowns are all part of the adventure."
kk
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The way I see it, one has to stay positive when things like this crop up. Yes, they can be annoying, but it doesn’t do much good to get angry, and when one has just dumped some diagnostic nightmare like an intermittent electrical problem in the shop’s lap (“Oh gee, thanks!”), it’s in everyone’s interest to get through the adventure with as little grief as possible. It helps that I have a very good shop that would be almost within walking distance if I didn’t mind walking 11 miles through west San Jose (see note above about, “Oh gee, thanks!” :grin:), but even if I didn’t, the problem was going to get fixed, I was going to get a working bike back, and no matter how frustrating things might have seemed at the time, a few weeks down the road, this was all going to be just a great story.
By way of comparison, thirty years ago, things went wrong while I was hang gliding at Big Sur (full story here (http://paulgazis.com/Borderlands/Borderlands.htm)) and as Ernest K Gann put it in Fate is The Hunter, I was granted a glimpse of something only a few dead men have seen. A wall of cloud formed between me and the LZ, I got whited out, spent several long minutes waiting for some unseen wall of rock to reach up and claw me out of the sky, and when I finally broke free, I had to stuff the glider on a hillside miles from nowhere. It took me two hours to crawl through thick brush to something that resembled a trail, and another three to find my way back to civilization. I wasn't entirely thrilled at the time (whimp!), but toward the end, as I was limping down the final stretch of ancient jeep trail, and it was clear I was going to survive, I thought, “Paul, you are having an adventure! People pay money to watch movies about adventures like this, and here you are, getting to have one for free! You should enjoy it!"
I didn’t, of course :grin: But that thought did put things in perspective, and since then, I’ve tried not to take life too seriously.
:shocked: :shocked: Uh, yeah.. adventures like that make you old before your time. :smiley:
creeping up the wires to foil relays or circuits. Urban legend IMO.
It may be your honest opinion.. but the facts are Omron had and probably still does have a tech bulletin saying to keep Dielectric grease away from any relays or the wiring to them.
It is also death on ignition switches. An arc causes Silicon oxide, (from memory) :rolleyes: an excellent abrasive.
Wayne posted the bulletin several times over the years, but I think he's given up. People are going to believe what they are going to believe.. :smiley:
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...keep Dielectric grease away from any relays or the wiring to them.
I have a solution to this dilemma that should satisfy the pro- and anti-dielectric factions! Vegemite! Next time I'll smear the contacts with Vegemite! Worked for Australian rock bands back in 1982! What could possibly go wrong? :grin:
(https://i.ibb.co/7S07Qfm/vegemite.gif) (https://ibb.co/7S07Qfm)
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Not to open a can of worms and all that but................ .....
I never use dielectric grease. Use ACF-50 instead. Made for aircraft connections. Just sayin.............. .....
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Not to open a can of worms and all that but................ .....
I never use dielectric grease. Use ACF-50 instead. Made for aircraft connections. Just sayin.............. .....
"Buying relays from a man in Brussels
He was six-foot-four and full of muscle
I said, "Do you speak-a my language?"
He just smiled and gave me an ACF-50 sandwich
And he said
"I come from a land down under
Where beer does flow and men chunder
Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover, yeah"
I suppose it works in the song as well as Vegemite does. And it might even taste better! I'll track some down. Thanks!
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Vegemite! That's the ticket, mate. :smiley:
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https://youtu.be/h5r3HAJh8es
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Since my wife's from Korea and I spent part of my childhood in Maine, our trip to Oz placed us in a position to combine three fine culinary traditions: Vegemite, Kimchi, and Moxie!
Yum!
And people wonder why I find it hard to take life seriously...
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Vegemite, Mamite for beginners.
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I keep expecting the bike to fail again, my 3 Guzzi's have each been through several events but it must have fixed itself. :thumb: :thumb:
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I took the V85TT on another test ride to the coast today -- at least that was my excuse -- and the bike ran fine, with no more grumbles, so the expedition must be counted as a success! It included a stop at Pigeon Point for lunch.
(https://i.ibb.co/d00mpFr/x20q40-IMG-6763.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d00mpFr)
I might not have had any kimchi to complete the Vegemite/Moxie/kimchi trifecta, but at least I managed two out of three :grin:
(https://i.ibb.co/37FVr1j/x20q40-IMG-6756.jpg) (https://ibb.co/37FVr1j)
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Since my wife's from Korea and I spent part of my childhood in Maine, our trip to Oz placed us in a position to combine three fine culinary traditions: Vegemite, Kimchi, and Moxie!
Yum!
And people wonder why I find it hard to take life seriously...
Love the Kimchi after 6 and a half years in Korea, but Moxie is horrible. And I lived in Maine for 12 years and could never tolerate it. Vegemite? Meh.