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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: twowheeladdict on November 12, 2022, 08:36:08 AM
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Best video I have seen on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9stN-LJeuM
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I agree, the phrase means “I screwed up “. I completed a law enforcement motorcycle riding course in 1980 and in the classroom portion we learned about the difference in the coefficients of friction between asphalt and rubber and asphalt and plastic or steel. The better option is to ride it with the goal of avoiding contacting solid objects.
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What [John A] said - I had to take a traffic safety course about that time due to a speeding ticket, and I found one taught by a retired CHP motor officer.
He taught us about effective front wheel braking, and vaulting when all else failed. Prior to that the phrase "I had to lay it down" was an acceptable description for losing control in a braking event.
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Liked the video. "I had to lay it down" is a stupid statement that I've heard more times than I'd like. I've wrecked and it was my fault.
- I down shifted one too many on wet pavment, the back wheel lost traction and I fell.
- I was going too fast into a negative camber turn, I was leaning enough that I was grinding a peg on the pavement of which I ran out of and rode the bike into a ditch....I'm an idiot!
- I neglected to deploy the kickstand, dismounted and the bike fell....I'm getting to be an old idiot!
No I had to lay the bike down BS for me!
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I was in the Air Force , stationed at Barksdale near Shreveport. There was a rash of motorcycle crashes so I volunteered to be part of a team that trained and evaluated riders to get permission to ride on base. They sent five of us to take a law enforcement rider class. Two days of accumulated riding intermixed with one day of classroom. You used your own bike and the first time you rode the course was the only time you could hit a cone or go outside the lines or you were done, a failure. It was a tough course but I got a certificate that says I was good for ‘advanced patrol and pursuit’ . One of the Tyler TX cops dumped his Kawasaki police bike on the last test where we had to do some fast crash avoidance work on a sandy parking lot. I rode my hopped up Ambassador. That class saved me a time or two. What I learned is best summed up by a phrase I learned in helicopter aviation: “ you can ball ‘em up but you can’t wad em up”. It’s like a piece of paper, if you ball it up you can straighten it out to be a flat paper again but if you wad it up it’ll be a crumpled mess with some permanent damage. It translates to : do not contact any objects like bumpers, culverts, lite poles etc and you can usually walk away. Ride it out if you can .
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I was in the Air Force , stationed at Barksdale near Shreveport. There was a rash of motorcycle crashes so I volunteered to be part of a team that trained and evaluated riders to get permission to ride on base. They sent five of us to take a law enforcement rider class. Two days of accumulated riding intermixed with one day of classroom. You used your own bike and the first time you rode the course was the only time you could hit a cone or go outside the lines or you were done, a failure. It was a tough course but I got a certificate that says I was good for ‘advanced patrol and pursuit’ . One of the Tyler TX cops dumped his Kawasaki police bike on the last test where we had to do some fast crash avoidance work on a sandy parking lot. I rode my hopped up Ambassador. That class saved me a time or two. What I learned is best summed up by a phrase I learned in helicopter aviation: “ you can ball ‘em up but you can’t wad em up”. It’s like a piece of paper, if you ball it up you can straighten it out to be a flat paper again but if you wad it up it’ll be a crumpled mess with some permanent damage. It translates to : do not contact any objects like bumpers, culverts, lite poles etc and you can usually walk away. Ride it out if you can .
Important note there...training. I've taken advanced rider courses several times over the years but never with any riding buds...my friends always had prior commitments or some other reason for not taking a course on improving their skill and ability to survive the mean streets. I thought it was very unfortunate for them because I felt they really needed it, more than me! Like they say...You can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink.
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I was a MSF instructor myself for many years in SoCal. Had to lay it down is "weak" - I always answered that with, YOU mean you purposely caused an accident trying to avoid an accident? - in other words, you don't know how to use your brakes. Most of those people no longer ride either. Very stupid, they think face saving, or saving face, whatever - Bravado statement.
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Yeah, those are 'saving face' terms......
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Its been my experience that locking up the front brake on a wet road will lay the bike down in a hurry ! :tongue:
But only when a truck pulls out in front of ya should such a thing be done. My V7II will lift the rear wheel for a split second before the ABS kicks in on dry pavement.
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The phrase I usually hear is: I had to lay HER down. Both the phrase and the gender assignment just make me think the person is of low intelligence. May or may not be true, but that's the impression it gives me.
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The phrase I usually hear is: I had to lay HER down. Both the phrase and the gender assignment just make me think the person is of low intelligence. May or may not be true, but that's the impression it gives me.
What would you say is the intelligence someone who exhibits a superiority complex? :azn:
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I was sent to a driving class and evaluation when I was in basic in the Army to be able to drive a deuce and a half to transport troops and other driving duties. One of the instructors said at one point "there is no such thing as an accident, it's a F%#k Up." Have never forgotten and it still grates on my nerves when people, especially those who should know better, call a crash an accident. Applies to "lay downs" as well.
kk
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I would imagine that could hold true under many circumstances , but , if you've ever
had a child race out from between 2 parked cars chasing a ball , only meters from you,
well the consequences might be called an accident , no ? Kids and parents in cities can
be kinda scary ! Peter
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I would imagine that could hold true under many circumstances , but , if you've ever
had a child race out from between 2 parked cars chasing a ball , only meters from you,
well the consequences might be called an accident , no ? Kids and parents in cities can
be kinda scary ! Peter
Hmmmm…
(https://i.ibb.co/0cyrmXG/712296-CC-3261-44-ED-AC50-6-ACF171-DE8-AE.png) (https://ibb.co/0cyrmXG)
Dunno about definition #2.
I think the reason behind a “surprise pregnancy” is fairly easy to fathom… :rolleyes: :wink:
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Wow, people feel pretty strongly about “laying it down”.
I take umbrage at the statement that those who say and do this are, weak, unintelligent or other such euphemisms. I take full responsibility for my actions and ended up walking away.
Here’s what happened to me if you care to read on;
THE SETTING
Two lane divided road
Warm fall day, no leaves or precipitation on pavement
Morning time
Clear sky
40 mph in a 45 zone
Flint rock on sides of road off elevation from woods
So, a deer literally jumps out of nowhere into me without warning and limited peripheral site time from the wooded elevation
My options?;
A curb at a horrific angle
A sign post
Sidewalk
And finally landscaping up a significant wall
I indeed grabbed the brakes and counter steered
The lumbering 750# Triumph Rocket III did not act like a sports bike, imagine my surprise..., and so I did, “lay it down”
Result?
Broken hand bone
Road rash on left foot as the pavement ground through my riding boots.
Everything was replaced at retail;
*All my riding gear, yes I was dressed to ride
*All of the repairs on the bike
The deer?
He bound off
Darn, as it was a nice buck (could’ve made a nice conversation piece on the wall, i.e. Buck by Bike or I hunt with a Triumph...)
Anyway I idled home as the throttle cable had snapped
I was .5 mile from home
I have relived this, my only road accident in 50+ years of riding and I still see this was my only option
I thank God as I believe it was divine intervention as my response time was limited at best
YMMV
inditx
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Wow, people feel pretty strongly about “laying it down”.
I take umbrage at the statement that those who say and do this are, weak, unintelligent or other such euphemisms. I take full responsibility for my actions and ended up walking away.
Here’s what happened to me if you care to read on;
THE SETTING
Two lane divided road
Warm fall day, no leaves or precipitation on pavement
Morning time
Clear sky
40 mph in a 45 zone
Flint rock on sides of road off elevation from woods
So, a deer literally jumps out of nowhere into me without warning and limited peripheral site time from the wooded elevation
My options?;
A curb at a horrific angle
A sign post
Sidewalk
And finally landscaping up a significant wall
I indeed grabbed the brakes and counter steered
The lumbering 750# Triumph Rocket III did not act like a sports bike, imagine my surprise..., and so I did, “lay it down”
Result?
Broken hand bone
Road rash on left foot as the pavement ground through my riding boots.
Everything was replaced at retail;
*All my riding gear, yes I was dressed to ride
*All of the repairs on the bike
The deer?
He bound off
Darn, as it was a nice buck (could’ve made a nice conversation piece on the wall, i.e. Buck by Bike or I hunt with a Triumph...)
Anyway I idled home as the throttle cable had snapped
I was .5 mile from home
I have relived this, my only road accident in 50+ years of riding and I still see this was my only option
YMMV
inditx
Just curious, did you purposely “lay the bike down” to cause a skidding situation or did the bike lay itself down due to the possibility of heavy breaking of the rear wheel?
Let me be clear, I’m not questioning your judgment call, just curious about the actual dynamics of the crash.
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Honestly I think it was the latter Dan.
inditx
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We were in an accident on July 4th, 2018. A head-on collision occurred right in front of us. Here's my 103 ft skid mark from 55 mph. The Highway Patrol said that he was amazed that I kept the bike up. "Usually", he said, "most riders would have laid it over"
(https://i.ibb.co/K7gZcQH/20180704-124008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K7gZcQH)
(https://i.ibb.co/T4Tm7Ky/20180704-122709.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T4Tm7Ky)
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Yes inditx
Sounds like a F*%#-%^ on the Deer's part , you were just collateral Damage ! But , still not an Accident .
Which bring to mind the phrase : The "Pregnancy was an Accident" ??? That's clearly not an accident .
Up or Down is the only question , but no way being an Accident . :laugh:
................... ..........
That's a long skid mark ! I'm surprised the rear tire stayed on the pavement enough to leave a trail !
I have to ask : "Did the ABS start blinking" ?
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:thumb:
ABS or no?
inditx
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Yes inditx
Sounds like a F*%#-%^ on the Deer's part , you were just collateral Damage ! But , still not an Accident .
Which bring to mind the fraise : The "Pregnancy was an Accident" ??? That's clearly not an accident .
Up or Down is the only question , but no way being an Accident . :laugh:
Yeah that deer was on a mission apparently!
:tongue:
inditx
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:thumb:
ABS or no?
inditx
No
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whooooo's
Both of them stories makes me want to slow down a bit , just thinking about them ! :shocked:
................... ........
I had a Truck pull out in front of me in a blinding rain, on a two lane road years ago . Long time ago , before I started paying close attention to anything. I was clearly going to hit it no matter what I did , it was just too close to do anything but drop as much speed as possible before impact.
Well , when I hit the front brake and the front slipped out from under me , the bike went off the right side of the road. That left me sliding on my the back of my blue jean jacket on a wet road under the rear of the truck . To my view the rear axle was approaching my trajectory really quick , so , I grab-ed it as it came into reach . After a few seconds the truck was going faster than me so it just ... ran off and left me ... still sliding down the road ! I'm not even sure the truck driver knew what happened - it just kept going.
Yes , that was me driving too fast for the road conditions ... (I'm a sinner by nature :embarrassed: )
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I did lay down my friends FJ1100 in a roundabout... :rolleyes:
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NEVER makes sense to Lay it down, NO matter how you want to rationalize it. "YOU are causing an accident trying to avoid the possibility of an accident". Not using your brakes correctly, bad decision realized - you never find out you might have stopped safely in time or counter steered out of it. You can argue it with the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, not me who has been documenting and training millions of riders since 1972 HAS never condoned in any circumstance causing your own accident by "laying it down". Let's face it no one admits to bring a bad kisser or bad driver, I think with all that is going on with trying to control a MC going down the road in uncontrolled conditions that could affect it - that also should be included. Some of us, whether thru luck or skill or combination of both, I think are better at handling a motorcycle then others.
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every time this subject rears its head, it brings to mind an old country song.
https://youtu.be/d7FspsAHqfQ
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In the UK the police refer to collisions, not accidents. Even small children, dogs etc on pavements are foreseeable risks that should be mitigated by anticipation and cautious riding. Deer signs are to be found by forests; autumn (rutting season) is riskier. True that a collision might be unavoidable because of the unpredictability of the actions of deer but it pays to be aware of what they might do, and when. Similarly dawn is a risky time for pigeons and other birds and animals to fly or run out from hedgerows - again caution is needed. Genuine accidents are rare: bits falling from aircraft. The two second rule should provide sufficient time to stop behind a vehicle that crashes, as this method automatically increases the following distance as speed rises. In bad weather two seconds is doubled. There’s a load of stuff that advanced training tells us about avoiding collisions and keeping the rubber on the road. It won’t make anyone invincible but helps mitigate the risk.
The only instance I remember of someone claiming to have laid it down was on a classic bike club ride to Wales back in the nineties. We were mostly riding British twins and singles and came to a well-known (to us all) series of tightening bends on a mountainside about ten miles out from our destination.
One of our number on a Mk3 Norton Commando in new condition failed to negotiate the bends despite following a two-up pensioner on a Triumph Tiger 90 with very limited ground clearance and a hinge in the middle or so it seemed. In the pub that night the Commando rider took a lot of flack for claiming he had to lay his bike down. Even the pensioner, who had ridden nearly all the way with his bike’s choke full on and wondered why he had to keep stopping for petrol, managed to get round the bends without crashing - which is what the Commando owner actually did….. I’m not convinced that most riders have the presence of mind to decide to lay a bike down. At best they evaluate the options and attempt the least painful, most optimistic choice they have identified.
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Pretty simple.
Instead of saying
“I had to lay it down” with all the comment that statement attracts..
Insert the words
“…do what I did that caused me to…”
Then it’ll read
“I had to do what I did that caused me to lay it down”
Cause and effect.
I had cause to do what I did… (conscious choice)
The outcome was…
I laid it down…(effect)
The stunt we see on movies where our hero (apparently), stands on the rear brake as the bike slides on it’s side under the semi so as not to be decapitated, is actually in that league.
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every time this subject rears its head, it brings to mind an old country song.
https://youtu.be/d7FspsAHqfQ
Lol, no more questions for this witness, you may step down Sir. 🤔😂
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The two guys who told me they had to lay it down were ignoring that they were riding way beyond their abilities when they crashed, both cases on fast roads with sharp curves.
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In the UK the police refer to collisions, not accidents. The two second rule should provide sufficient time to stop behind a vehicle that crashes, as this method automatically increases the following distance as speed rises. In bad weather two seconds is doubled.
The 2 second rule takes into consideration that the following vehicle can stop in the same distance as the leading vehicle, and that the following driver is paying attention and has a less than 2 second reaction time.
This is seldom the case.
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Yes, but no rider or driver can be expected to be responsible for the actions of others, only his or her own. When I ride or drive I pay attention to the distance I
maintain from the vehicle in front using the two second rule as a basic guide. It’s about maintaining my own safety bubble. I accept that in an emergency situation, while I would hope that by leaving a decent gap I would avoid running into the vehicle in front, it doesn’t preclude someone behind me crashing into me. Tailgating is one of the biggest causes of accidents in the UK. Advanced training advises the rider to allow the tailgater to pass and thereby maintain one’s safety bubble.
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One of my after retirement jobs insisted that we maintain 3 seconds. They also required that we drive no faster than the speed limit which they monitored via GPS. Since no one adheres to the speed limit so between the two we always had a pretty good safety bubble. Our vehicles were also plastered with reflective safety tape.
kk
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I was on a freeway transition road with a nice sweeper, and on the outside of the curve was a low barrier wall and about a 40 ft drop to a parking lot. Kind of certain death if you high sided over that wall. Mid curve a valve stem on the rear wheel failed at about 85mph. Bike got pretty squirrelly for a moment, and I was very ready to push it down to low side instead of high side. Bike stabilized and I came to an uneventful stop.
Figured my choices were ride it out, low side and live, high side and die.
Since then I only run metal valve stems.
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Last time I laid one down I didn’t do it on purpose. I had most of the speed scrubbed off by the time I lightly hit the rear of a car that had the car in front of him do a ‘brake check’ . I had lost traction because I dynamited the linked brakes and didn’t realize the freeway was so oily . Anti skid would have helped.
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Wow ! 85mph speed limit ? :copcar: :copcar: :copcar: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
We all do it sometime or another !
Shame on all of us ... :rolleyes: Well most of us anyway ???
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I was on a freeway transition road with a nice sweeper, and on the outside of the curve was a low barrier wall and about a 40 ft drop to a parking lot. Kind of certain death if you high sided over that wall. Mid curve a valve stem on the rear wheel failed at about 85mph. Bike got pretty squirrelly for a moment, and I was very ready to push it down to low side instead of high side. Bike stabilized and I came to an uneventful stop.
Figured my choices were ride it out, low side and live, high side and die.
Since then I only run metal valve stems.
So, you've practiced low siding before? Did you go to stunt rider school? I don't think I could purposely low side a bike. I guess the best way to do it on an ABS bike would be to sharpen the turn until hard parts hit and separate from the bike which would also be hard to do on purpose.
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I did a lowside once. It was early in my riding days, I had an 80cc Yamaha Trail master. I was coming around an exit ramp that was concrete and churt polished smooth through many years of traffic. As I was coming around the turn the rear wheel also started coming around. I was just about full lock when the bike and I gracefully slid out and landed on our sides. Fortunately we both came to a stop before we hit the curbing. Unfortunately the Yamaha's throttle grip was on the pavement locked full on with the motor screaming for help. I tried jumping to my feet to rescue her. The roadway was covered in oil, transfluid or ? I fell, hit my elbow on the pavement which hurt for a few weeks. The get-off was uneventful but the fall off my feet wasn't. Go figure.
The first thing I did next was get those damn trials type tires exchanged for street tires, probably wouldn't have helped on that slick pavement though. Fifty six years later I am still leary about leaning a bike way over. I had one other event on that bike prior, wet road same tires and another slide on a 250 Yamaha a couple of years later on another slick road. Saved that one though. Be careful out there.
kk
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Stay away from Yamaha's :evil: . Peter
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I did a lowside once. It was early in my riding days, I had an 80cc Yamaha Trail master. I was coming around an exit ramp that was concrete and churt polished smooth through many years of traffic. As I was coming around the turn the rear wheel also started coming around. I was just about full lock when the bike and I gracefully slid out and landed on our sides. Fortunately we both came to a stop before we hit the curbing. Unfortunately the Yamaha's throttle grip was on the pavement locked full on with the motor screaming for help. I tried jumping to my feet to rescue her. The roadway was covered in oil, transfluid or ? I fell, hit my elbow on the pavement which hurt for a few weeks. The get-off was uneventful but the fall off my feet wasn't. Go figure.
The first thing I did next was get those damn trials type tires exchanged for street tires, probably wouldn't have helped on that slick pavement though. Fifty six years later I am still leary about leaning a bike way over. I had one other event on that bike prior, wet road same tires and another slide on a 250 Yamaha a couple of years later on another slick road. Saved that one though. Be careful out there.
kk
My first bike was an 80 Trailmaster, good times!
inditx
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I put an actual 17,000 miles on mine. It was a good bike, at least at the time. I rebuilt a 125 a couple of years ago. What a POS.
kk
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Wow ! 85mph speed limit ? :copcar: :copcar: :copcar: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
We all do it sometime or another !
Shame on all of us ... :rolleyes: Well most of us anyway ???
Kind of the average speed of freeway traffic here if it’s not jammed. :laugh:
Cops generally don’t get excited until you hit at least 86.
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So, you've practiced low siding before? Did you go to stunt rider school? I don't think I could purposely low side a bike. I guess the best way to do it on an ABS bike would be to sharpen the turn until hard parts hit and separate from the bike which would also be hard to do on purpose.
I’m on that transition road 4 or 5 times a week normally, so pretty used to it. In the couple of seconds it took, I was determined not to high side. Pretty sure I could low side at will by pushing the bike down. Watching MotoGP, a low side looks better than a high side.
Years before that, I had a new tire put on by a BMW dealer who failed to torque the wheel lugs. I got about 2 miles from the dealer before the rear wheel got wobbly as 3 of the 4 lugs fell off, one kind of cross threaded itself and stayed on, and the rear brake caliper kind of helped the wheel stay on. So I had a previous experience of a wobbly rear. Never did go back to that dealer, even though they offered me a discount on the next tire service as compensation.
Always thought that BMW added the 5th lug to their wheels on the 1200 series bikes so the torque values were less critical. Somebody said having your rear wheel fall off was as bad as it gets. I said no, having your front wheel fall off is worse.
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I once had the front wheel come off on my bicycle after hitting a bump at speed. Some idiot didn't tighten the axle nuts, me. It was horrible, I was skinned up pretty badly. My hands took the brunt of it.
kk
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I laid my dirt bike down on purpose once. Came around a bend to see a tree sideways across the trail about 4 ft off the ground. Slammed the rear brake and pushed down hard. Was fortunate to get low enough not to hit the tree.
About the only street scenario I could imagine trying to do that would be an 18 wheeler blocking the road and trying to slide under the trailer. With ABS it's probably near impossible. Otherwise keep the rubber on the road to brake and maneuver as best you can.
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"I had to lay 'er down cause the last thing I wanted to do was grab a fistful of front brake and fly over the handlebars" I've heard this explanation several times in my motorcycle travels.
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What would you say is the intelligence someone who exhibits a superiority complex? :azn:
I wouldn't know what to say unless they took an IQ test. Just as I wouldn't know what to say if someone exhibited an inferiority or insecurity complex. On the other hand, someone who is unable to use proper grammar is flat out uneducated.