Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: disco_cisco on December 14, 2022, 03:22:20 PM
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Hi everyone,
I apologize for the long post in advance.
Please help me. I've been facing mechanical issues for a year now and I think something is really wrong with my motorcycle.
Bought my brand new 2021 V7 Stone 850 Special. My first, and brand new motorcycle, which means I don't have much experience regarding mechanical issues. Please be patient with me :D.
I would like to leave a note stating that I do not ride this MC in a "rough" way. I love it, it's beautiful. I try to service it every 6,000 KMs, wash it once a week and she sleeps inside 90% of the time.
I'm not heavy on the throttle but do enjoy pushing the bike a bit sometimes (it's a fun bike).
Also, I am not an angry person, I did not mistreat, shout at or abuse anyone at the dealership. I have been very patient considering the situation. I will also try to not name places or people due to legal reasons. Please bear in mind that I live in Western Europe and I bought the motorcycle from a certified dealership and it is still within its 2 year warranty period.
I got the MC from a MG dealership, brand new but noticed it had 150kms on it. The dealership said they, (MG), tested their motorcycles in Italy after assembly so I figured these had to be related to that.
The bike started having ignition problems after about 300KMs in. Somehow this was related to the ignition button, which was replaced, and sorted out the issue for a while, it is happening again. Video example here:
-----------------------------------VIDEO1--------------------------------
https://youtube.com/shorts/hdI_0tuK784?feature=share
(This is me pushing the ignition button and nothing happening)
Right before the first service, which I did around 1000 KMs, I started to notice power loss (Video 2).
-----------------------------------VIDEO2--------------------------------
https://youtube.com/shorts/TCHfBSzATZw?feature=share
Sometimes also bad starts. I can achieve ignition but the engine will cease after 5 seconds or so (Video 3).
-----------------------------------VIDEO3--------------------------------
https://youtube.com/shorts/2JganJSYC74?feature=share
(this tends to get worse with cool weather (never sub 0ºC but really damp) but also ocasionally happens during warm weather (maximum temp around 30ºC).
Other times I get “infinite crank”. The engine will not fire regardless of how long you press the ignition button. It just keeps cranking and eventually backfires a bit. The engine will start when you press the ignition button a second time. I could not quite get it on video yet, but here is kind of what it does minus the engine firing at the end bit.
-------------Video 4---------------
https://youtube.com/shorts/NAkF0FwygA8?feature=share
Please note I only managed to get video later on during this whole "quest" as this would happen randomly and I would not always have my phone on me before starting up the bike. It also gets embarrassing to start filming every single time you start up your motorcycle.
This was reported to the dealership right around the first service, and they couldn't find the fault. The mechanic said an "Oil Pressure Alarm" warning came up at a certain point before the first service, not to worry as it was normal somehow. I found this odd, as I did not even notice the bike showing any sorts of alarm on screen, but trusted him and carried on riding the motorcycle.
Around 3,000 KMs in I bought and installed the MISTRAL slip-on exhausts on the dealership shop, which I use without the Db Killers (I know they are loud, but that is the way I enjoy them). Noticed it got a bit worse than before, but expected the “lagginess” from the lack of Db Killers. Installing the Db killers does not solve these issues, nor do the original exhausts.
At around 7,000 to 8,000 KMs the power loss was unbearable. Once again, I made my way to the dealership and after practically begging them to have another look they found that the ignition cables were faulty (as in the live spark was connecting to the frame instead of the spark plug at the end of the cable thus resulting in the misfiring of one cylincer).
They did a quick fix on the faulty ones and ordered some new ones in along with some brand new spark plugs (which took a while).
The new ignition cables lasted about 2,000 KMs (bike had around 11,000 KMs at this point). They started “digging” a bit further and found out the coils were faulty as well (Also dumping sparks on the frame).
This is more noticeable when it is damp, rains or the bike is still wet from washing. But does happen overall and gets worse over time.
So they got new coils, new ignition cables and new spark plugs. The bike seemed to be working well, it was better, but I am still having ignition problems (Video 3 & 4).
They keep saying that these ignition problems are normal in this specific model due to the new Euro5 regulations but I just don't buy it anymore.
The bike has now 18,000 KMs, and as I was riding it the other day, noticed a minor power loss, looked at the dashboard and the "ALARM: OIL PRESSURE" message on the dashboard. I barely saw it to be honest. I wonder how many warnings I managed to miss so far. I was really near home so just rode really slow untill I got there.
Called the dealership and was told I could ride the bike to the dealership as long as I was really slow and didn't push on the RPMs.
When I got there he told me that this happens sometimes and the oil level just needs to be topped up.
I had checked the oil level previously and it was just below MAX.
I did not accept his diagnose. I asked him to call MG Italy or whoever is responsible when these things happen to explain what is going on so that I can get this MG working as it should. I went through the internet and found no one facing the same issues I am. I’m having all these faults ever since I got the MC and I wonder if the MC is now totaled due to them not figuring out what was wrong with it from the start. I am also concerned about that oil pressure alarm.
I am living a nightmare. Could someone please tell me if this is actual normal? Can my MC be fixed?
Thank you everyone, I hope I can figure this out soon.
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Edit: Got the wrong video numbers in. Apologies, I feel like I just finished writing a book with that long post.
Thank you!
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Well my friend you came to the right place. These guys will have you sorted soon.
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Just going for the easiest, simple solution first. Do you use a pressure washer? If you do you could be getting water where it should not be. If you are not using a pressure washer..... someone else will have an answer. Best of luck.
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Now tell us WHERE you live (city, country).
None of this sounds normal. Coils and secondary wires should not fail on a fairly new machine.
Yes, Guzzi does test ride bikes after assembly. Ride around the building a few times. Maybe 1km.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Who had the most thousands of trouble free miles on a 98EV?
Ken Hand (one of my personal heroes).
How many times did he wash his motorcycle?
I think he had some bikini girls do it ONCE at a fund raiser.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I have a 2022 V7 E5 850 and have on a few different occasions experienced the issue where pressing the electric start button does absolutely nothing, or will crank the engine for just a fraction of a second but apparently not long enough to start it. At first I just thought I had done something wrong, bike in gear, clutch not fully pulled in, etc, but no, it's the motorcycle that's acting up. It's never prevented me from starting the motorcycle within a few tries and I haven't asked a shop to look into it yet. Sorry I don't have any advice, just moral support and the reassurance that you're not crazy and it's normal to expect a fuel injected motorcycle to start when you press the button for the electric start, if it doesn't, there's an issue.
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Your dealer is appalling. What a load of rubbish you have been told. The right hand switch cluster is a known problem area. I sprayed mine with contact cleaner.
I have Mistrals on mine, but I wouldn’t run the bike without the baffles. Apart from being offensively loud IMHO they need an ECU remap for the fuelling to be correct. FWIW mine runs a lot better since I remapped it via UpMap to suit the Mistrals WITH the baffles in.
I don’t believe that per se is the underlying problem though. As for a brand new bike having 150kms on it - utter rubbish. Mine was bought used with 500 miles on it. I was told that the first owner “didn’t like it”. I bet he didn’t - when I first ride it it was jerky and had a lousy gear-change. Poor fuelling (original map) and incorrect clutch adjustment sorted it (I sorted both myself).
I have an OBD2 fault code reader to check for any stored fault codes, but the dealer should have the official Piaggio kit to diagnose any problems. Also, if your bike was an early one (as was mine) there have been two official map upgrades, the latter of which I understand sorted out the odd fuelling glitch - I did mine via the UpMap remap , as I refuse to take mine back to the dealer to b*ggar up again.
No, I’m afraid your bike is not normal and has something wrong that I have not seen on forums before.
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Well my friend you came to the right place. These guys will have you sorted soon.
I really hope so! Thank you fort the support!
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Just going for the easiest, simple solution first. Do you use a pressure washer? If you do you could be getting water where it should not be. If you are not using a pressure washer..... someone else will have an answer. Best of luck.
No pressure washer. I just use a regular hose on "Shower" mode, always have.
Thank you for the input!
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Now tell us WHERE you live (city, country).
None of this sounds normal. Coils and secondary wires should not fail on a fairly new machine.
Yes, Guzzi does test ride bikes after assembly. Ride around the building a few times. Maybe 1km.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
It really doesn't sound normal. I never owned a brand new vehicle, but I would expect it to start and run without problems for at least the 2 year warranty period.
EDIT: Forgot to answer to location question. I am afraid that this might end up with me taking the dealership to court, and wouldn't want any of this used against me. I know I'm just looking for advice, but these days you never know. Let's just say I am VERY western Europe. Real close by the Sea.
Many thanks for the input.
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Who had the most thousands of trouble free miles on a 98EV?
Ken Hand (one of my personal heroes).
How many times did he wash his motorcycle?
I think he had some bikini girls do it ONCE at a fund raiser.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
I wish I could get away with not washing the bike at all. I live really close to the ocean and the MC needs to be cleaned and protected (I use the Muc-Off silicon spray for that thin layer of protection). Otherwise everything will get corroded in a matter of months. No kidding.
I wouldn't mind having girls in bikini washing it once a week though.
Thank you Patrick.
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I have a 2022 V7 E5 850 and have on a few different occasions experienced the issue where pressing the electric start button does absolutely nothing, or will crank the engine for just a fraction of a second but apparently not long enough to start it. At first I just thought I had done something wrong, bike in gear, clutch not fully pulled in, etc, but no, it's the motorcycle that's acting up. It's never prevented me from starting the motorcycle within a few tries and I haven't asked a shop to look into it yet. Sorry I don't have any advice, just moral support and the reassurance that you're not crazy and it's normal to expect a fuel injected motorcycle to start when you press the button for the electric start, if it doesn't, there's an issue.
I'm going to try the contact spray as speciality mentioned on his post. Might sort out the start button problem, but to be fair that is the least of my concerns.
Moral support and reassurance are very welcome and I am most thankful for it.
Thank you Enzo.
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Your dealer is appalling. What a load of rubbish you have been told. The right hand switch cluster is a known problem area. I sprayed mine with contact cleaner.
I have Mistrals on mine, but I wouldn’t run the bike without the baffles. Apart from being offensively loud IMHO they need an ECU remap for the fuelling to be correct. FWIW mine runs a lot better since I remapped it via UpMap to suit the Mistrals WITH the baffles in.
I don’t believe that per se is the underlying problem though. As for a brand new bike having 150kms on it - utter rubbish. Mine was bought used with 500 miles on it. I was told that the first owner “didn’t like it”. I bet he didn’t - when I first ride it it was jerky and had a lousy gear-change. Poor fuelling (original map) and incorrect clutch adjustment sorted it (I sorted both myself).
I have an OBD2 fault code reader to check for any stored fault codes, but the dealer should have the official Piaggio kit to diagnose any problems. Also, if your bike was an early one (as was mine) there have been two official map upgrades, the latter of which I understand sorted out the odd fuelling glitch - I did mine via the UpMap remap , as I refuse to take mine back to the dealer to b*ggar up again.
No, I’m afraid your bike is not normal and has something wrong that I have not seen on forums before.
I have been living a nightmare. I'm sure they are all nice people but I think they lack competence. I'm trying to say this in the nicest way I can.
I know the pipes are loud, but I mostly do countryside and loudness sometimes is a plus in those places. I haven't re-mapped the MC because the dealership doesn't do it and if I outsource (or DIY) it I will loose warranty.
The MC is currently up-to-date on the re-maps (had the two updates) but it has not solved the problem.
I really appreciate your input and support. I will keep you guys updated regardless of what happens. Might help someone out in the long run.
Thank you!
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Just guessing….but what pops into my tiny brain
“Washing once a week..” hhhhhhmmmmm that’s a lot to me…and storing in a dark garage (with a cover too?) doesn’t mean it’s really bone dry for storage
And bad battery, and/or poor grounds….with a splash of too much wet storage
150kms are what, 90 miles? Unusual for new.
Correct viscosity on the oil?
Just guessing from 1000 miles away never works well for me, good luck stick with it
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Just guessing….but what pops into my tiny brain
“Washing once a week..” hhhhhhmmmmm that’s a lot to me…and storing in a dark garage (with a cover too?) doesn’t mean it’s really bone dry for storage
And bad battery, and/or poor grounds….with a splash of too much wet storage
150kms are what, 90 miles? Unusual for new.
Correct viscosity on the oil?
Just guessing from 1000 miles away never works well for me, good luck stick with it
Wash and dried with a cloth if that helps. I just keep it in the garage, no cover on top of it. I also have my "man cave" in the garage and it is built in to the house so it can safely say that the air is as fresh as it can be. It runs (runned) on a daily basis, I run it after washed, so one would think the excess water would evaporate after the first 10 minutes riding (I guess).
Not sure about the battery or oil, but I can guarantee you all of the services were done by the dealership.
Do you think this might be an oil issue?
Thank you Chuck.
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Just a checklist of what I would look at
Watching your start videos i wonder if they are cold or warm motor starts. If cold I’d suggest keeping a hand on the throttle with a little up and down. My bike will die too if I don’t jockey it a on a cold start. Stumbles a bit even warm until I roll away
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Cold starts for sure. I will get that infinite crank issue regardless of warm or cold.
The thing is, I would expect this issue with a carburated MC. But I don't feel like this should be happening to a fuel injected MC. Or at all since I can't find anyone else having this issue.
My concern is that these are symptoms to a bigger underlying problem that might become worst in a near future
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On my “21” Centanario I experienced an occasional no start condition . Press starter button & nothing , nyet , nada. It was an intermittent issue . I did all the normal ? Stuff , cycle ignition , side stand , engine stop switches . Some times it helped sometimes not . Sooner or later (usually a few minutes) it has always started . I tried to be very analytic about my starting procedure . I happened to notice if my hand wasn’t touching the throttle at all , no problem . Apparently, after some trial & error I was slightly opening the throttle . I wouldn’t think this should make a difference . But when the no start occurred holding the throttle closed always seems to solve the “issue” . The dealer on a few occasions couldn’t find a problem , they did do a couple needed updates from the mothership . 11lK quite happy miles so far . I hope this helps . No problems in the last 7k Mi.
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You have more patience than I do. I would have traded for a Japanese bike by now.
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It is my understanding that you shouldn’t touch the throttle when starting an EFI bike. Certainly if left standard the V7 850 will purge its charcoal canister on starting. That was the cause, I feel, of the engine almost stalling on the first ride of the day. I either had to rev it more than needed to guarantee the engine wouldn’t stall, or set off normally and risk it stalling. The canisterectomy completely solved that one as well as the indifferent warm starting after a good thrash, which caused an excessive vacuum in the fuel tank. I find that it’s actually quite difficult not to open the throttle when starting but it really isn’t necessary.
In my experience year 1 of Japanese motorcycles can have issues too. The thing is road testers just deal with what they think of the bike; only occasionally does an actual fault occur - but they do. Reading magazine articles on buying the same used model a couple of years later tells us what the common faults are. IMHO it’s a bit like the late 70s/ early 80s were, when Japanese manufacturers launched a new model every other week and it became impossible for dealers to stock the necessary spares. Many buyers keys didn’t stay in the range long. There was a lot of market dumping too. Anyway, I shall not be rushing to buy a V100; I’ll let others be the pioneers this time. In future I’ll stick to buying new last-of-the-line fully sorted versions….
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Like just posted below, I would disconnect the fuel vapor canister & air purge system. GT sells the block off plate for air & run fuel vapor hose for canister to fresh air below trans.
Then see how it runs, you may need a fueling map for your open pipes.
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For the miles on it when you bought it, sounds like your dealer allows test rides? I would assume that is where those miles came from. So basically, your dealer lied to you about that. Not sure why they couldn't just be honest with you and feel like they gotta make up some story!
I've bought two new Moto Guzzi's, in the US, and they both had 0.0 miles on them. Which I thought was very odd as I thought at least the mechanics should take a brief around the block test ride on them.
Is there any other highly competent Moto Guzzi dealer that isn't extremely far away from you? In the US, there are a few excellent amazing MG dealerships. Then some that are competent and OK. Then some that sell them but don't really know much more than how to do basic services on them. If you had an excellent dealership somewhere, maybe call them up, talk to the Service Manager, explain your situation, and see if they are willing/interested in sorting out your bike. An excellent shop would want a customer to be happy, and have a well sorted out bike ... they might even see it as an interesting challenge to sort it all out.
Sounds like your dealership is one of ones that is only good at doing basic services and can't troubleshoot things very well.
My joke is it is like going to McDonald's and wanting a nice steak ... all they can serve you is a kind of crappy hamburger ... no amount of being nice, or talking to the people in charge, of yelling, or begging will get you a steak ... they just can't serve that.
So it sounds like your current dealership in a McDonald's and you want a steak. :grin:
And seriously, it sounds like they just don't have the personnel that can sort this out. And some of the stuff they have done might have just been guesses. "Ahhh, I don't know, lets put some new plug wires and spark plugs on it and see if that fixes it."
Hopefully you can find another dealership that knows what they are doing and get it sorted out.
As for legal action, not sure how that works in your country, but guessing since you've put so many miles on it, which proves the bike did start and run and you got use out of it, might be kind of hard to have a legal angle there.
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If it cranks but doesn’t start, turn the kill switch off. After a half minute or so turn the kill switch on. Hit the starter and it may start right up. Cycling the kill switch like that should reset the ecu to a start mode.
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It would cost me around a G to get this MC away to a different dealership. So not really ideal.
I was actually more inclined to pay for someone online qualified\expert to have a look at the data and give me an unoficial expert opinion of what is going on so I can actually go to the shop and know what I'm talking about.
You might be right regarding the legal action, but it really doesn't seem fair since they have been pushing the bike as "alright" all along despite my numerous complaints. In any case, if it comes to it, I will give it a go.
I can't believe I forgot to mention but the fuel vapor canister & air purge system were disconected at around 4,000 kms with no effect whatsoever. It might have made it run a bit better, but I was still having issues with the coils at that time. I kind of regret it to this day. Leaves a lingering smell of gasoline in the garage. Gasoline smells cool, just not in the house.
I forgot to mention earlier, I also asked the dealership to get, in writing, a document from an official MG engineer stating these issues are normal and expected in this MC model and does/will not affect the performance of the MC as they claim.
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Could be issue w/fueling from adding open pipes, running lean. O2 can not adjust enough for what is needed.
Maybe turn off the traction control, any difference? No way for me to plug into your bike over the net. Maybe your importers warranty dept has that ability to the dealerships.
I would do a compression check for runability, you might even have burnt valves, some come from China.
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It really doesn't sound normal. I never owned a brand new vehicle, but I would expect it to start and run without problems for at least the 2 year warranty period.
EDIT: Forgot to answer to location question. I am afraid that this might end up with me taking the dealership to court, and wouldn't want any of this used against me. I know I'm just looking for advice, but these days you never know. Let's just say I am VERY western Europe. Real close by the Sea.
Many thanks for the input.
It's not too hard to figure out where you are located. Looks like you have 7 dealers to choose from. I would try a new dealer and get it taken care of. Unless your super far north or south it's only a couple hours drive to any dealer.
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It's not too hard to figure out where you are located. Looks like you have 7 dealers to choose from. I would try a new dealer and get it taken care of. Unless your super far north or south it's only a couple hours drive to any dealer.
Looks like it is hard to figure out where I'm located. Which is the point to be honest. I'm flattered by the "snooping around", but will ask please to not do that.
As I said, I live a long and expensive way from any other dealership.
Could be issue w/fueling from adding open pipes, running lean. O2 can not adjust enough for what is needed.
Maybe turn off the traction control, any difference? No way for me to plug into your bike over the net. Maybe your importers warranty dept has that ability to the dealerships.
I would do a compression check for runability, you might even have burnt valves, some come from China.
I have thought of that and it was suggested earlier.
But this would mean that I would not have any issues with the factory exhaust pipes. And this was happening even then.
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Well I would treat the “dealer” as if he never existed and begin the sorting out trek myself. He’s as much use as tits on a bull, you’re better off without him.
Just watching your starter button video, it’s hard to tell if the button is failing to provide current to the solenoid, or it is and the solenoid is failing, I cannot hear a “click”.
But in any case..
I’d disconnect the leads to the right handlebar cluster, find the wire/s from the starter button and with a battery and test lead, check that the button is actually switching flawlessly, if not, find out why and fix it.
If it is switching ok, go down to the solenoid and check if the current is getting there.
Also check, clean and tighten BOTH ENDS…! of your battery leads and ensure your battery is up to standard.
Never mind how new or old it is.
As others have said, you’ve the patience of a saint and are to be commended as such.
Do a simple test each time you get the chance and start your bike in an absolutely dark environment, if there are stray sparks leaking, you will see the glow quite well.
I would try to move the tank away a bit so you can view the coil area for such sparks.
Obtain and learn to use Guzzidiag, it may have thrown a code that can give you some guidance and you can re set your TGPS and generally get to know the workings a bit.
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I’ve got a number of thoughts. Note that I’m no super experienced chap with great mechanical knowledge, but I do have enough to sometimes help (and sometimes get in trouble).
1) If you did the maintenance service yourself, does that include the valve adjustments? Did you have someone knowledgeable help you out with that part?
2) 150 km is somewhere around 93 US miles. I don’t think that’s too uncommon for a new bike at a dealer, especially if the bike sat at on the floor for a while, and the dealer is near rural roads where test riders can go 5-10 miles at a time. If the dealer you bought this from is not in the middle of a big city, then maybe they just had multiple people test riding the bike, including themselves. But, I would be concerned with the quality of those 150 km ridden before you bought it. These motorcycles have a 600-mile (900-1000 km) break-in period, requiring the machine to be ridden within a threshold of conditions and throttle response. Hopefully none of those test rides were ripping around too hard.
3) starter button not working:
—squirt some contact cleaner or WD40 into the button recess, see if that helps. Wires and buttons need to be kept lubricated, some more than others.
—after you lubricate the button, if you experience issues starting again, wiggle the cable a little, and even trace the wiring back to its harness, see if anything might be in the way and causing a short or maybe not completely connected properly.
—I assume you looking down at your left foot is pointing out that the side stand is up. And I see you’re in Neutral. might want to check your side stand safety switch anyway, maybe there’s some faulting. Spray some contact cleaner on that as well.
4) intermittent shutoff on cold starts:
—That’s not rare, especially in colder temperatures. My V7II did that as well. I think a map update fixed it, but don’t remember for sure because I also had an oxygen sensor replaced at the same time (moisture had gotten into it and it caused throttle issues at certain speeds). If you’re still on the stock map, they’re pretty restrictive in order to pass emissions; I’ve read numerous comments about the 850’s stock map being particularly troublesome. If you can have the dealer do an update, that could solve some hiccups.
—back to the sensors: You could try unplugging your sensors and giving them a good cleaning.
—What kind of fuel are you putting into the bike on the regular? Is it clean? I’m curious if your fuel filter might be acting up.
5) Oil pressure:
—I’ve learned the hard way that Guzzis are sensitive to the amount of oil in the system. With the Guzzi small block, they don’t take much oil, which means it’s even more crucial to make sure the proper amount is in at all times.
When you check the level, you’re checking the oil level when the engine is hot and the bike is vertically straight, not leaned over, right?
—Also, have you looked inside your airbox? Any oil puddled up on the bottom?
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It would cost me around a G to get this MC away to a different dealership. So not really ideal.
Why so much? Ride bike there, leave it, train ride home. Do opposite to pick it up.
Or ride bike there, friend follows in car, leave bike, ride back with friend.
I understand it being expensive if you pay some transport company to carry it there and back, but hopefully there are some other options.
From what you've explained, I have 0.001% faith that your current dealer is going to sort anything out. I would say they know they are incompetent, and when you show up they are thinking "oh no, not this bike again. We can't get that one sorted out. We'll tell him they all do that and hopefully he'll go away."
There is a thread on here where a guy was having lots of problems with his V7 850 ... took it back to his dealership several times, no luck ... took it to better dealership, they dug into, and I believe the end result was a brand new ECU (could have been some other stuff too) ... and I think his has been fine since. Have you seen that thread?
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Just had an another look at the videos. I have a V7 850 Special. On that both amber lights flash until the bike has been ridden a short distance/speed ie ABS and TC. On videos 3 and 4 it seems that only the l/h/s amber light is flashing. Is that normal on a Stone? (The first 2 videos show both lights flashing). Is TC disabled in these later videos?
As you will know, but owners of earlier bikes might not, the starter button can also be pressed again when the engine is running. (I always expect a hideous graunching sound….) This is how the TC can be switched off. The point I am making is that it is a Canbus system and as such might not be as simple to fix as older ones where the starter button is just that.
You mention not wishing to void your warranty by reflashing the ECU yourself, as I did. Yet you have already fitted aftermarket exhausts without a reflash and have disabled the canister. I can’t see how the warranty can be upheld anyway, though I don’t know where you live.
The mode button on mine is slow to react; instead of broadband it communicates with the ECU as if it were dial-up modem…Mine too has occasionally suffered a delay in responding to the start button. I’m not sure that this in itself is an issue, though I still recommend dismantling, cleaning the contacts and adding some sort of barrier against water ingress - I use Vaseline. I also second the advice on checking the battery terminals as well as the battery itself. Modern ones can fail early compared to the old lead/acid type.
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Tough to diagnose over the internet and what seems to be spotty info. The subterfuge is a bit silly IMO.
I would stop washing the bike weekly. You have probably created rust and corrosion in places you dont want. I would go ove every ground point, and connection, clean and put a coat of Vaseline on connections. Some V7's have had plug cap issues, but rarely spark plug wires and coils.
I'd also reconnect the evap system, or cap/close it properly. You also likely need to look at your fuel map. I find it odd your dealer, as crappy as they seem aren't pointing to an improperly modified evap system as part of your running issues.
Circling back to washing, stick to spray bottle wash and wax for tank, body and chrome/shiny parts, even for tires and rims. I only do a full wash annually or every couple years, though I do keep the shiny parts shiny. I rarely if ever have used water or hose. When cleaning the engine/trans, I use Ballistol a spray cleaner/oil that is rubber safe. Water causes corrosion....... Corrosion causes problems. I hope you are taking the bike out and riding it till all is hot and water is evaporated. If you wash and put away, you are and will cause problems.
Just my 40+ years of riding and maintaining motorcycles .02.
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Tough to diagnose over the internet and what seems to be spotty info. The subterfuge is a bit silly IMO.
I would stop washing the bike weekly. You have probably created rust and corrosion in places you dont want. I would go ove every ground point, and connection, clean and put a coat of Vaseline on connections. Some V7's have had plug cap issues, but rarely spark plug wires and coils.
I'd also reconnect the evap system, or cap/close it properly. You also likely need to look at your fuel map. I find it odd your dealer, as crappy as they seem aren't pointing to an improperly modified evap system as part of your running issues.
Circling back to washing, stick to spray bottle wash and wax for tank, body and chrome/shiny parts, even for tires and rims. I only do a full wash annually or every couple years, though I do keep the shiny parts shiny. I rarely if ever have used water or hose. When cleaning the engine/trans, I use Ballistol a spray cleaner/oil that is rubber safe. Water causes corrosion....... Corrosion causes problems. I hope you are taking the bike out and riding it till all is hot and water is evaporated. If you wash and put away, you are and will cause problems.
Just my 40+ years of riding and maintaining motorcycles .02.
I reckon that all sounds pretty solid.
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Well I would treat the “dealer” as if he never existed and begin the sorting out trek myself. He’s as much use as tits on a bull, you’re better off without him.
Just watching your starter button video, it’s hard to tell if the button is failing to provide current to the solenoid, or it is and the solenoid is failing, I cannot hear a “click”.
But in any case..
I’d disconnect the leads to the right handlebar cluster, find the wire/s from the starter button and with a battery and test lead, check that the button is actually switching flawlessly, if not, find out why and fix it.
If it is switching ok, go down to the solenoid and check if the current is getting there.
Also check, clean and tighten BOTH ENDS…! of your battery leads and ensure your battery is up to standard.
Never mind how new or old it is.
As others have said, you’ve the patience of a saint and are to be commended as such.
Do a simple test each time you get the chance and start your bike in an absolutely dark environment, if there are stray sparks leaking, you will see the glow quite well.
I would try to move the tank away a bit so you can view the coil area for such sparks.
Obtain and learn to use Guzzidiag, it may have thrown a code that can give you some guidance and you can re set your TGPS and generally get to know the workings a bit.
I know what you mean about the dealer.. But I just can't afford to dump money to repair a new bought bike, specially since it is still under warranty.
I might give Guzzidiag a go.
The coil problem is fixed, I'm almost certain, hence why I find it odd for it to still be stalling on cold starts.
Thank you for the input Huzo.
I’ve got a number of thoughts. Note that I’m no super experienced chap with great mechanical knowledge, but I do have enough to sometimes help (and sometimes get in trouble).
1) If you did the maintenance service yourself, does that include the valve adjustments? Did you have someone knowledgeable help you out with that part?
2) 150 km is somewhere around 93 US miles. I don’t think that’s too uncommon for a new bike at a dealer, especially if the bike sat at on the floor for a while, and the dealer is near rural roads where test riders can go 5-10 miles at a time. If the dealer you bought this from is not in the middle of a big city, then maybe they just had multiple people test riding the bike, including themselves. But, I would be concerned with the quality of those 150 km ridden before you bought it. These motorcycles have a 600-mile (900-1000 km) break-in period, requiring the machine to be ridden within a threshold of conditions and throttle response. Hopefully none of those test rides were ripping around too hard.
3) starter button not working:
—squirt some contact cleaner or WD40 into the button recess, see if that helps. Wires and buttons need to be kept lubricated, some more than others.
—after you lubricate the button, if you experience issues starting again, wiggle the cable a little, and even trace the wiring back to its harness, see if anything might be in the way and causing a short or maybe not completely connected properly.
—I assume you looking down at your left foot is pointing out that the side stand is up. And I see you’re in Neutral. might want to check your side stand safety switch anyway, maybe there’s some faulting. Spray some contact cleaner on that as well.
4) intermittent shutoff on cold starts:
—That’s not rare, especially in colder temperatures. My V7II did that as well. I think a map update fixed it, but don’t remember for sure because I also had an oxygen sensor replaced at the same time (moisture had gotten into it and it caused throttle issues at certain speeds). If you’re still on the stock map, they’re pretty restrictive in order to pass emissions; I’ve read numerous comments about the 850’s stock map being particularly troublesome. If you can have the dealer do an update, that could solve some hiccups.
—back to the sensors: You could try unplugging your sensors and giving them a good cleaning.
—What kind of fuel are you putting into the bike on the regular? Is it clean? I’m curious if your fuel filter might be acting up.
5) Oil pressure:
—I’ve learned the hard way that Guzzis are sensitive to the amount of oil in the system. With the Guzzi small block, they don’t take much oil, which means it’s even more crucial to make sure the proper amount is in at all times.
When you check the level, you’re checking the oil level when the engine is hot and the bike is vertically straight, not leaned over, right?
—Also, have you looked inside your airbox? Any oil puddled up on the bottom?
1 - Valve adjustments have been done by the dealership (2x) as it was thought to be one of the causes for it to fail at starts.
2 - I understand. I don't have much experience with brand new bikes and just thought it was kind of fishy later on. If the bike was working fine, I wouldn't really have a problem with that.
3 - Indeed. I will try the cleaner once a week.
4 - It has had the two major updates, runs a bit better but I still have problems with the cold starts and the engine pressure oil alarm. I am certainly getting a map fix for it, just waiting until the warranty voids. What sensors should I remove and clean? I use 95 octanes fuel, as recommended in the user manual. I'll note down the fuel filter and ask them to have a look.
5 - I usually check the oil when the bike is cold or maybe 20 mins after riding, standing upright.
- I will check if there is oil in the air filter box, if there is, what does it mean?
Many thanks for the advice Dirk :bow:
Why so much? Ride bike there, leave it, train ride home. Do opposite to pick it up.
Or ride bike there, friend follows in car, leave bike, ride back with friend.
I understand it being expensive if you pay some transport company to carry it there and back, but hopefully there are some other options.
From what you've explained, I have 0.001% faith that your current dealer is going to sort anything out. I would say they know they are incompetent, and when you show up they are thinking "oh no, not this bike again. We can't get that one sorted out. We'll tell him they all do that and hopefully he'll go away."
There is a thread on here where a guy was having lots of problems with his V7 850 ... took it back to his dealership several times, no luck ... took it to better dealership, they dug into, and I believe the end result was a brand new ECU (could have been some other stuff too) ... and I think his has been fine since. Have you seen that thread?
I haven't seen it that post but will look for it. I know what you mean about the dealership, I wish it could be as simple as that but it is not. There are risks, it will cost money and a lot of time. Ultimately, if I have to, I'll spend the money. But I would rather not.
Thanks for the advice usedtobefast :thumb:
Just had an another look at the videos. I have a V7 850 Special. On that both amber lights flash until the bike has been ridden a short distance/speed ie ABS and TC. On videos 3 and 4 it seems that only the l/h/s amber light is flashing. Is that normal on a Stone? (The first 2 videos show both lights flashing). Is TC disabled in these later videos?
As you will know, but owners of earlier bikes might not, the starter button can also be pressed again when the engine is running. (I always expect a hideous graunching sound….) This is how the TC can be switched off. The point I am making is that it is a Canbus system and as such might not be as simple to fix as older ones where the starter button is just that.
You mention not wishing to void your warranty by reflashing the ECU yourself, as I did. Yet you have already fitted aftermarket exhausts without a reflash and have disabled the canister. I can’t see how the warranty can be upheld anyway, though I don’t know where you live.
The mode button on mine is slow to react; instead of broadband it communicates with the ECU as if it were dial-up modem…Mine too has occasionally suffered a delay in responding to the start button. I’m not sure that this in itself is an issue, though I still recommend dismantling, cleaning the contacts and adding some sort of barrier against water ingress - I use Vaseline. I also second the advice on checking the battery terminals as well as the battery itself. Modern ones can fail early compared to the old lead/acid type.
I honestly wouldn't know. I've never riden another 850 and the lights have always been this way, they all go away after driving for 2 meters or so.
I fully understand how TC works. It is set to "1" at all times.
I would expect warranty to uphold since all those mods and aftermarket parts were done/worked/recommended by them. I was only warned that it would void if I did an ECU reflash. So that was what I didn't do. Either I'm in trouble or they're in big trouble. Either way, I will keep you guys posted on how it goes.
Once again, thank you for the input Speciality.
Tough to diagnose over the internet and what seems to be spotty info. The subterfuge is a bit silly IMO.
I would stop washing the bike weekly. You have probably created rust and corrosion in places you dont want. I would go ove every ground point, and connection, clean and put a coat of Vaseline on connections. Some V7's have had plug cap issues, but rarely spark plug wires and coils.
I'd also reconnect the evap system, or cap/close it properly. You also likely need to look at your fuel map. I find it odd your dealer, as crappy as they seem aren't pointing to an improperly modified evap system as part of your running issues.
Circling back to washing, stick to spray bottle wash and wax for tank, body and chrome/shiny parts, even for tires and rims. I only do a full wash annually or every couple years, though I do keep the shiny parts shiny. I rarely if ever have used water or hose. When cleaning the engine/trans, I use Ballistol a spray cleaner/oil that is rubber safe. Water causes corrosion....... Corrosion causes problems. I hope you are taking the bike out and riding it till all is hot and water is evaporated. If you wash and put away, you are and will cause problems.
Just my 40+ years of riding and maintaining motorcycles .02.
I apologize for the spotty info. I tried to put down as much information as I could in the simplest manner I could as it might lead to a better understanding of what is going on or what could be wrong with the bike. I'm also not a native English speaker, so I'm trying my best to be as accurate and coherent (I had to google how to spell that) as possible.
I'll cut down the washing to as much as possible. But it is very common to wash and spray your bikw with protectant here. Our sea breeze gets a lot of salt into a lot of places which makes corrosion a lot worse if you don't water it down and spray it with protectant (I use muc off sylicone). The only two places where I have corrosion are the horn (getting pretty bad) and the ABS disc sensor thingys, which are damn hard to maintain. I can assure you that after washing it is dried up, riden and then sprayed with protectant. I know I'm anal about it but salt really gets to everything out here.
I will ask them to take another look at the evap system and restore it to what it was, I'm ok with that and won't miss the smell of gasoline in the garage.
Thank you for the advice Bulldog9
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Thanks guys for the input, I will keep you all updated and let you know what's wrong with it (if there is a fix).
Please bear in mind that I didn't post this as way to complain about the dealership. I was really hoping it was some sort of silly fix and someone on the internet could have some knowledge of what is going on.
I will keep working on it and keep you guys updated!
Thank you all
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Here is the link to the thread I mentioned: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=113226.90
Not exactly your same set of symptoms, but same thing where main dealership could not sort out issues and seemed to be guessing and swapping some stuff out ... then a really good dealer seemed to get to the real issue and fixed the bike.
Good luck
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Here is the link to the thread I mentioned: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=113226.90
Not exactly your same set of symptoms, but same thing where main dealership could not sort out issues and seemed to be guessing and swapping some stuff out ... then a really good dealer seemed to get to the real issue and fixed the bike.
Good luck
I been following this thread. Lots of solid advice. A few May remember I was having trouble with my v7 850. Randomly would not start and then wouldn’t start at all. Revved high and wouldn’t idle down. Back and forth to the dealer. Finally took it to the more competent dealer in my state. Turned out to be a faulty ecu. Until then was pulling my hair out. Best wishes find a better dealer it on the end was the only thing that saved me. Riding with no issues and nearly 16000 miles.
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Sounds like there is going to be a lot of "leading a horse to water", but not much "drinking".
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I find it concerning they found bad wires and bad coils. I doubt the coils were bad, they were “Shot gun troubleshooting” Starter button? That’s a sealed unit.
Computer controlled bikes have a start sequence the When they key is turned to the on position the ECU makes sure all conditions are met then when the Starter button contact is made the ECU opens the circuit to allow 12 VDC to the starter relay.
One of the start up conditions is not being met if pressing the contact button the starter does not engage. When you press the starter does the Solenoid get 12 VDC applied to the contacts?
The late model V7’s needed a fuel map upgrade to fix a cold start stumble. What I remember my friends 850 V7 would stall after starting and run rough for a few minutes, He had the upgrade done and the bike was flawless.
Running Mistrals no DB killers with no remap will cause “flat spots” and other issues.
Did you disconnect the environmental stuff or did the dealer?
Did you buy the bike from a Moto Guzzi dealer or another dealer?
If you take the bike to an official Moto Guzzi dealer it is covered under warranty.
Sounds like you live in Canada, I am in Western NY 30 miles to Niagara Falls if you are near me you can come down or I can meet you in Ontario. We can perform some checks, methodically documenting our steps so we can fix one problem at a time. Starting with the no start issue. Greg Bender should have the V7 maintenance manual on his thisoldtractor site. Your dealer sounds incompetent.
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Is the main power relay-- which may be misnamed something like 'Injector/Load relay' on the wiring diagram -- plugged in properly? Could a bit of water have gotten into the plug? I had a vaguely similar intermittant electrical problem with my V85TT. It was quite the saga, lasting many months, that eventually got fixed when the shop pulled the relay -- I'd checked this myself, but not carefully enough -- cleaned the contacts, and plugged it back in.
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I find it concerning they found bad wires and bad coils. I doubt the coils were bad, they were “Shot gun troubleshooting” Starter button? That’s a sealed unit.
Computer controlled bikes have a start sequence the When they key is turned to the on position the ECU makes sure all conditions are met then when the Starter button contact is made the ECU opens the circuit to allow 12 VDC to the starter relay.
One of the start up conditions is not being met if pressing the contact button the starter does not engage. When you press the starter does the Solenoid get 12 VDC applied to the contacts?
The late model V7’s needed a fuel map upgrade to fix a cold start stumble. What I remember my friends 850 V7 would stall after starting and run rough for a few minutes, He had the upgrade done and the bike was flawless.
Running Mistrals no DB killers with no remap will cause “flat spots” and other issues.
Did you disconnect the environmental stuff or did the dealer?
Did you buy the bike from a Moto Guzzi dealer or another dealer?
If you take the bike to an official Moto Guzzi dealer it is covered under warranty.
Sounds like you live in Canada, I am in Western NY 30 miles to Niagara Falls if you are near me you can come down or I can meet you in Ontario. We can perform some checks, methodically documenting our steps so we can fix one problem at a time. Starting with the no start issue. Greg Bender should have the V7 maintenance manual on his thisoldtractor site. Your dealer sounds incompetent.
Bought from an official dealership, but I am in Europe and the nearest official dealership (besides the one around) is something like 900 miles away. :bow: :bow: :bow: Thank you so much for offering to meet me and do some checks. I really would if I could.
Your post is on point, I'll check the solenoid for 12V.
Everything was bought, fixed, serviced, maintained etc.. on the official dealership, where I bought the MC.
The dealership is currently having another look at the MC, I will update you guys regardless of the outcome.
Thank you again