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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Scout63 on December 20, 2022, 07:14:02 AM
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Maybe a third of my bikes have electric start, and at 59 I can still kick the rest just fine. I know that soon enough that will be a problem and this bothers me. There is an intimacy involved in understanding what a carbureted motorcycle engine wants when cold or hot. Add in the limited number of kicks available in older legs and lungs, and a few casual onlookers, and the process gets real cognitive, real fast. On the flip side, a single-kick start in front of a curious crowd has to be one of the few legal highs available to the codger. It’s a cool you can’t buy with a credit card. You have to earn it with time and attention to the machine. For me it’s a bond with each machine as important as the ride.
Just sayin...
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I have a few years on ya Ben, and I'm not worried yet.
('Course, I don't have a 900SS to persuade into life on a
cold New England morning.......) Still, I think your leg has
a few miles remaining in it!
I just have one kick-start only bike in the stable right now - the SR500.
Usually one kick in front of a crowd. When it's hot, no trouble.
When it's cold, no problem. When it's lukewarm, then it's fussy.
I do remember one incident on a a stinkin' hot summer's day. I took
my older son to the gas station, and the wretched machine wouldn't
refire. 37 kicks if I recall correctly - and the 14-year-old got quite a vocabulary
lesson. :laugh: The coil was on it's way out, you see, and a big single is not
eager to start when's it's hot and has a bad coil.
For the real showoffs, try a bump start in 3 strides or less in front of
spectators without using your compression release. :wink:
-Stretch
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My last kick start bike was my old RD400. Really that was a one or two kick bike, and a breeze to kick. At my age now, I am happy to save my knees for using a manual trans car/truck, and rely on electoral current to crank my bikes.
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(https://i.ibb.co/q7wRv36/cher.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q7wRv36)
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A group of us got a workout trying to start Dave Swansons 36 bacon slicer on A 40 degree morning,Dave finally got it going after we had a tour of his collection while it sat in the sun.
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You describe the process excellently, Ben! I have 2 i can kickstart when i get a hankerin. The Ural , and the 85 RZ 350.
If i want to show off to onlookers, i can “kickstart” the RZ with my hand , when hot. 😁
Rick D.
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A younger couple rolled in on a very well-restored Shovelhead, and when they went to leave, the starter would spin, but the solenoid would not engage. There were seven or eight of us watching, drinking coffee at a couple of picnic tables - and I went over to offer help. The owner was obviously frustrated and said that he didn't need no old guys help. I pointed out that his machine had a kick starter and asked him if it was functional. He said " I don't know, why don't you try it and find out". I gave it a twist of the throttle, kicked it thru twice and then turned on the ignition and one good kick fired it right up. Now, no one was more surprised than me. His girlfriend then said "don't kill it".
Many years ago, I STILL remember that Yamaha TT500 that threw me over the handlebars. I installed a compression release the very next day.
But yeah, I get it. Remembering the days when we had kickstart-only motorcycles - and the "electric start" bikes were more likely "electric assist". If they didn't start after three of four kicks, then it was time to take your jacket off, because you were going to be there for a while.
:boozing:
The only kicker we have now is a little Honda Trail 125, and it's so easy that ya can nearly crank it by hand.
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Yep I know how you feel, just recently had my right knee cartilage tidied up for the 3rd time and now arthritis seems to be taking over, 50 years as a heavy diesel mechanic working on my knees has taken its toll, But never mind thats why god made Guzzi so us old codgers can keep riding. I have 4 kickers and the one that bites the most is my XT 500 . Must put an electric rollers on my xmas list. Ray
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I think by design, any true adventure bike should have a kick start as well as an electric.
I love my DR650,but the FCR39 pumper carb can be a finicky starter at times,coupled with the wimpish starter and battery,I've always been hesitant taking it real far off the beaten path without a kick start back up.
Over a lifetime I've abused my body horribly,father time can be a painful reminder,I learned a while ago using my hands as hammers is not a good idea :evil:
I know I could still kick start my SR500,but almost half a century ago I had 3 screws reconstruct my right ankle. I'm grateful everyday that I can usually walk pain free,but every now and then,it'll feel off and I have to nurse it along and let the debris find a pain free point to settle back into place.
It would be nice to think that our bodies come with pain free unlimited mileage;but they don't,at times reality bites.
iirc "pride comes before the fall" I'll take my dose of humility and keep the remaining mileage in my ankle for walking and not risk losing it to a kick starter.
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Can't believe the number of people here with experience with those old Yamaha 500s' .
40 years as a bike mechanic (and years on Yamaha) and singularly those damn bikes made
a mockery of me ! Then to add insult to injury , I was lent one for some dirt riding , and when
cresting a long hill ( completely stupid on my part) , I felt I just had to fly over the top ! You guessed
it , I sailed through the air until the bike had flipped over and landed on me when we returned
to solid ground . Crap , that hurt and I've hated those things ever since . Peter
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My first bike, a 1969 Honda 350 CB had three starters, kick start, electric start, and park facing downhill start. All three came in handy at one time or tuther.
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As Ben said so eloquently, using a kickstarter properly is, a right of passage.
I wish that today’s bikes, still had that old reliable component. Sadly, kickstarters are as scarce as manual transmissions in modern cars.
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There are some entertaining books by a sort of bmw outlaw.However his tales lost some credibility when he described the time when he and a Guzzi buddy had to make a quick getaway from a hostile bar and the buddy couldn’t start his Guzzi no matter how many times he kicked it over.
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I have a few Norton Commandos, a Velocette Venom and a BSA 10, I’m so happy to have Guzzi’s to give my leg a rest sometimes! :grin:
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I have a few Norton Commandos, a Velocette Venom and a BSA 10, I’m so happy to have Guzzi’s to give my leg a rest sometimes! :grin:
About 1971 a friend and I went to a local dealership to test drive a Norton Commando. I got on and went down the
street, turned into a neighborhood and the engine stalled. I kicked my guts out until the dealer finally found
me. The battery was so dead that kicking couldn't generate a spark. I still remember the thrill of getting on that bike, but not so much the frustration of not being able to get it started.
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I think it was Kevin Cameron who wrote that if an engine has fuel, air, spark, compression and timing, it has no choice but to start. That always gives me comfort.
Most of my more recent hard starting issues are from flooding. The SR and 860 have pumper carbs which flood if you look at them wrong. I didn’t know about clearing the cylinder with an open throttle or the compression release until relatively recently. The Norton could care less how much fuel it gets, it doesn’t like too little. As long as the carbs are tickled it will fire. I love the puzzle of building and tuning a bike and then slowly learning what it wants. What the public sees when I’m starting it is just the very small visible part of the relationship.
Now Harley kickers, I can’t even imagine.
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I’m lucky enough to have 6 Commandos, every one is different when it comes to starting,, unless somebody is watching and then they misbehave. This August I was getting off the ferry from the UK to Holland, my wife who normally takes her Commando was on her V85, we were first in the queue of the 80 ish bikes waiting to get off, my commando took around 20 kicks before it fired up, how I laughed :thewife:
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I have some kick start bikes, my favourite is the1975 Ducati 860GT, kick only, after replacing all the electrical and installation of an Electronic Sasche ignition, new carbs and refreshed heads it’s usually a one kick wonder, if I don’t get it right it will seriously punish me.
I had a couple Yamaha 500 singles, 76 XT500 and a 77 TT500, both were reliable starters but many people hated them for their reluctance if the kick start procedure was not done right.
My little Benelli 175 Enduro is another super easy starter.
I tried starting a friends 750 Commando, I didn’t have the touch!
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I started riding when kick start only bikes outnumbered bikes with the starter button. My '73 Commando with the Combat motor was a bear. Really had to put your ass into it. I once acquired an unfinished '74 Sportster project that the PO had bought all the S+S parts to build a 90" stroker motor. I finished the build, and it was a handful of motor. That was the hardest bike to kickstart that I ever owned.
There were a couple of yahoos I rode with many years ago who thought it was great sport to pop the points cover on somebody's Pan or Shovel and stick a piece of cigarette pack cellophane in the points. Kickety, kickety, kick... "C'mon man, we gotta go..."
Larry
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I can't start my warmed over 500cc Suzuki 2 stroke twin, or the RD400. Fortunately, there are several others with electrics - but they are too heavy. I'm looking at 4 stroke sport bikes that weigh less than 300#s.Fat chance? I still have 3- 125cc 2 strokes. RS125, CX125 + another elderly Gilera.
I used to see adverts in British mags for electric driven friction wheel. Very compact. Saw one mounted under a tail rack. Re mounted part of fender, lights, tag.
Happy Holidays, R3~
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This girls bike wouldn’t dare kick her over the handlebars. She looked relieved when it lit off first kick.
https://youtu.be/I4147xT6YPM :thumb:
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Y'ep kickstarts are not the bikes to take to a bank robbery. :grin: BTDT Kickstarts and still do it for a ride. Someone once remarked that it's like earning the right to ride. :boozing:
My Recon that I assemble built as a tribute to my Dad. 80" Shovelhead engine. Foot clutch. 4 speed tank shift with open belt drive. My friend wanted a belt drive, I swapped it for enclosed primary chain, cases and starter. I wanted the FLH starter. It lasted for less than a year. Kick starting was easier. Turns out that a big twin is easier to start with a kick. A period XLCH is way harder to kickstart. The period electrical components were unreliable for me.
As explained to me a big twin will spin the crank a 1 1/2 turn per kick and a Sportster will spin 1/2 turn per kick. IIRC Anyone can correct. :grin: Points loosen up more in a XLCH Sport. This is before Locktite. Check your points on a weekly basis.
Starting drill on my Recon. It was easier to push it out of the backyard and bump start it. Steep enough hill that you couldn't push it up. Open gas petcock. Full open throttle twice to squirt fuel into the intake. Start rolling downhill and bump it in 3rd gear. The drill to start is different with rider input.
If starting after riding with engine hot. One kick would start the engine. If the engine is warm after going to a shop or restaurant or bar. With no gloves on, place your palm on the side of the cylinder head. Touching the upper fins too. HD engine remember. If you cannot then it's a one kick restart.
If you can then you have to do the cold start drill as follows. 1) Ignition off, 2 kicks to clear the cylinders, no throttle. 2) Ignition off, gas on 2 throttle openings to squirt gas into the intake. 2 kicks to prime the cylinders. 3) Ignition on and kick no throttle.
If the bike has a carb with a choke you have to figure out if the choke works in that combination sequence to start. The Mikuni worked with the choke sometimes and a stock oem Keihin did the same. I preferred the kickstarting sequence instead less guessing.
If you guessed wrong on a warm or not so warm engine. Welcome to the flooded engine party and roll of the dice. :boozing: :boozing: This would be in front of a bar/pool hall with friends standing outside taking bets on how many kicks. :grin: You always backed your bike into a parking space because it would stop you from going backwards while kicking your bike over.
IIRC when I first put the bike on the road, I moved the bike backwards from trying to kickstart about 10 feet in a flat parking lot. :grin: I was learning the starting drill for the bike. :grin: :grin:
Cold start, cold warm, hot warm, warm and hot starts. All different for a HD Big Twin with a kick start. Sometimes kicking on the right side with left foot, right foot or straddling the bike with right foot if I could get it on the intake stroke. Most times right side, off the bike with full body motion. It would be a full commitment to ride.
I still have this bike and take it out sometime. :tongue:
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Very well said Tom.
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Y'ep kickstarts are not the bikes to take to a bank robbery. :grin: BTDT Kickstarts and still do it for a ride. Someone once remarked that it's like earning the right to ride. :boozing:
My Recon that I assemble built as a tribute to my Dad. 80" Shovelhead engine. Foot clutch. 4 speed tank shift with open belt drive. My friend wanted a belt drive, I swapped it for enclosed primary chain, cases and starter. I wanted the FLH starter. It lasted for less than a year. Kick starting was easier. Turns out that a big twin is easier to start with a kick. A period XLCH is way harder to kickstart. The period electrical components were unreliable for me.
As explained to me a big twin will spin the crank a 1 1/2 turn per kick and a Sportster will spin 1/2 turn per kick. IIRC Anyone can correct. :grin: Points loosen up more in a XLCH Sport. This is before Locktite. Check your points on a weekly basis.
Starting drill on my Recon. It was easier to push it out of the backyard and bump start it. Steep enough hill that you couldn't push it up. Open gas petcock. Full open throttle twice to squirt fuel into the intake. Start rolling downhill and bump it in 3rd gear. The drill to start is different with rider input.
If starting after riding with engine hot. One kick would start the engine. If the engine is warm after going to a shop or restaurant or bar. With no gloves on, place your palm on the side of the cylinder head. Touching the upper fins too. HD engine remember. If you cannot then it's a one kick restart.
If you can then you have to do the cold start drill as follows. 1) Ignition off, 2 kicks to clear the cylinders, no throttle. 2) Ignition off, gas on 2 throttle openings to squirt gas into the intake. 2 kicks to prime the cylinders. 3) Ignition on and kick no throttle.
If the bike has a carb with a choke you have to figure out if the choke works in that combination sequence to start. The Mikuni worked with the choke sometimes and a stock oem Keihin did the same. I preferred the kickstarting sequence instead less guessing.
If you guessed wrong on a warm or not so warm engine. Welcome to the flooded engine party and roll of the dice. :boozing: :boozing: This would be in front of a bar/pool hall with friends standing outside taking bets on how many kicks. :grin: You always backed your bike into a parking space because it would stop you from going backwards while kicking your bike over.
IIRC when I first put the bike on the road, I moved the bike backwards from trying to kickstart about 10 feet in a flat parking lot. :grin: I was learning the starting drill for the bike. :grin: :grin:
Cold start, cold warm, hot warm, warm and hot starts. All different for a HD Big Twin with a kick start. Sometimes kicking on the right side with left foot, right foot or straddling the bike with right foot if I could get it on the intake stroke. Most times right side, off the bike with full body motion. It would be a full commitment to ride.
I still have this bike and take it out sometime. :tongue:
Got some pics of the bike to share? I found that carbureted HD's like a tad bit of throttle when kick starting them, warm or cold.
Larry
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Yes, I have pictures but I have to hunt for them and find a host site. Don't hold your breath. :grin: I have to hunt down a license plate for one of the guys first.
Yes on a little throttle but this kickstarting vs electric starting a Shovelhead.
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67 here, just sold my last kick start. Too many knee operations.
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I'm 77 but still able to kick start my 56 Harley KHK (basically an early flathead sportster) and my 73 Triumph Tiger. Both still have points ignition but well tuned. Both will start with 1-2 kicks. I really get a kick out of starting the old KHK in front of a bunch of newer HD "pirates" and telling them "Real men kick start their Harley's". Most don't even know what that extra pedal on the side is.
Best advise to start a kicker is wear good boots (no sneakers) and kick it like you mean it, all the way thru. This is assuming you've gone thru the proper ritual for the bike of course.
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Y'ep. :thumb: Have to know the starting drill for the bike. A big part is making sure of it's tuned state.
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My first bike was a kick-start Harley Sprint. That 350 thumper was a bear to start cold, and almost impossible in cooler weather. Didn't matter how it was tuned. I spent a lot of time pushing it uphill so as to start it rolling. My CB500, with four tiny cylinders, started on a breath. It did have a kick-starter, and I used it often just because it was cool. My XR350R had a compression release, which made it easy. It may also have helped that instead of a single big carb it had two smallish ones and started on only one so the intake stroke pulled air faster through the starter carb.
Now I have only the '70 Tiger, which starts cold on two kicks with the Premier carb, as long as everything else is perfect. Late in the summer, when the spring tune is 100 days old, it's useful to live at the top of a hill.
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This is what would work for an old timer
https://youtu.be/js4lkV17fj0
A ‘29 BSA
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I have a Luddite streak in me, and distinctly remember my various kick start bikes, including a Yamaha RD400 two stroke. Which was what, about a 6:1 compression ratio?
I used to think it was the manly cool thing to kick start. Who needs all that extra weight of a starter motor, big battery, etc.?
Real motorsickles are kick start. Cars are what have lectric starters.
Then I got a Honda CB550F with electric start. Never really looked back.
My right ankle is suboptimal—not sure I could still do the kick start routine
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All my dirt bikes are kick (6)-Yammie TT500 and Husqvarna 410 were the worst. I became proficient with the single lung four stroke drill. Compression release in, wide open throttle, kill switch on, kick it through 6-10 times (Do ya feel lucky, punk?). Close throttle, ignition on, kick firmly. Usually worked...
On the street, My Velocette requires choke on (or a tickle of the previous Amal), Decompression lever in, ignition off, two kicks, ease kicker down 1/2 stroke past compression, ignition on, kick and Voila! With a modern carb and electronic ignition almost always first kick. Starts well when warm too.
My Triumph 750 gets the carbs tickled and 1 to 3 kicks cold and usually 1 kick warm.
(https://i.ibb.co/LZQYMxR/after-the-Palermo-race-2021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LZQYMxR)
My Maico 400 is the hardest bike I have to start. I installed a primer because the original Bing had a tickler. Big bore two strokes like a bit of raw fuel to start. Compression release in, kick and kick and kick. When you're wiped out from kicking get someone to push start you.
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Here ya go.
kk
https://youtu.be/qT7XFwRvCs4