Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kiwi_Roy on December 24, 2022, 12:23:49 AM
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He was a man bought up in the Elizabethan era
the thoughts about this intangible Quality drove him off his head (remember this is a guy raised in the Elizabethan era trying to understand stuff that's not real.
He then wrote a book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance that has been taught and used to torture students ever since.
He died a while back at 88 still stuck in his weird head-state ranting about quality and
The whole mess could have been avoided if he' just stuck to riding his motorcycle, we all know thats all the therapy a guy needs, he might have reached 100
I came to this realization after re-reading Chapter 12 where you can see he's still stuck in the past, he's doing just fine before writing the book which is a bunch of BS
The sales from the book did pay for his motorcycle so it's not all bad. but not as good as many tales we read on here from regular guys.
I used to read this silly book to try and understand his silly ideas but I think I well consign it to the garbage now.
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Robert Persig Explained
He was a man bought up in the Elizabethan era teaching one day when a passer by Said I hope you are teaching Quality this year.
the thoughts about this intangible Quality drove him off his head (remember this is a guy raised in the Elizabethan era trying to understand stuff that's not real.
He then wrote a book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle mechanics that has been taught and used to torture students ever since.
He died a while back at 88 still stuck in his weird head-state ranting about ideas
The whole mess could have been avoided if he' just stuck to riding his motorcycle, we all know that's all the therapy a guy needs, he might have reached 100
I came to this realization after re-reading Chapter 12 where you can see he's still stuck in the past, he's doing just fine before writing the book which is a bunch of BS
Thee sales from the book did pay for his motorcycle so it's not all bad. but not as good as many tales we read on here from regular guys.
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A friend gifted me "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" and mentioned he hadn't been able to finish it and was disappointed that it didn't have much to do with eastern philosophy or motorcycle maintenance. I've given it a try at least twice and just couldn't get hooked after 200 or so pages, what started off boring just got nested in with more layers of boring.
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In the first few pages he explains that nobody knows how electricity works and that the wall switch that turned on the light was a mystery to all. It wasn't then and isn't now for me. I put the book down and was never tempted to try again to read such drivel. My brother the PhD in English literature says I don't know what I'm missing but then, he loves Boob Dylan who can't decide whether he believes what he himself wrote or not, so his taste is proven to be lacking. If I can't read something that inspires me, educates me or entertains me then I probably don't need to read it. Melissa Holbrook Pierson's "THE PERFECT VEHICLE" is a much better read and worth the time. IMNSHO
Brian
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I TRIED to read the book, but thought it was just me with an 8th grade education from a one room country school that could not understand it.
Tex
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I’ve tried to read it so many times without success. What put me off was the overwhelming sadness. Hunter Thompson tragically took his own life but still makes me laugh and got the bike thing right in far fewer words.
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Sitting on my bike w the paperback in my hands was a perfect door opener for meeting the fairer persuasion…in 1976 at least. :popcorn:
Couldn’t stick w reading it thru again
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I’ve tried to read it so many times without success. What put me off was the overwhelming sadness. Hunter Thompson tragically took his own life but still makes me laugh and got the bike thing right in far fewer words.
This.
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Never read it and don't care to. I find most literature about motorcycles are BS except Service Manuals.
I don't do bike magazines, internet reviews, nothing. Only the Guzzi News from Frank.
I find all of it doesn't fit my situation ever, always a waste of time.
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In the first few pages he explains that nobody knows how electricity works and that the wall switch that turned on the light was a mystery to all. It wasn't then and isn't now for me. I put the book down and was never tempted to try again to read such drivel. My brother the PhD in English literature says I don't know what I'm missing but then, he loves Boob Dylan who can't decide whether he believes what he himself wrote or not, so his taste is proven to be lacking. If I can't read something that inspires me, educates me or entertains me then I probably don't need to read it. Melissa Holbrook Pierson's "THE PERFECT VEHICLE" is a much better read and worth the time. IMNSHO
Brian
”I used to care but things have changed”
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The book's not about motorcycles. The subtitle "An inquiry into Values" was the first clue.
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I tried to read this years ago but couldn’t get through it. It’s a prime example of something Samuel Johnson said in the 1700s: “No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money.“
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Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values is a book by Robert M. Pirsig first published in 1974. It is a work of fictionalized autobiography and is the first of Pirsig's texts in which he explores his concept of Quality.
In 1974, I was a sophomore in college...and I barely got through reading his book...I was living at home, working two jobs to get through college...and focused on much more important things...I thought the book was a "stinker" of biblical proportions, :rolleyes: :shocked: :laugh: :grin: and had very little to do with riding and enjoying motorcycles...(IMHO)
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One of my favorite books.The meaning I gleaned was that there was no need to fear stuff you dont readily understand,you are capable of dealing with most problems if you are willing to leave your comfort zone.I definitely wouldn’t have read it without the motorcycle story and the book inspired me to ride out of Chicago to see what the country had to offer,and I’ve never looked back,a great trip story even if you don’t like the philosophy.I just finished Augie March by Bellow,a similar book which is very interesting if you are willing to struggle through the philosophical parts.
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(https://i.ibb.co/0tcTGTd/Screen-Shot-2022-12-24-at-8-33-18-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/0tcTGTd)
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I've read a few reviews of this book including the 14 here, so far. I haven't bothered to even look at a copy nor will I.
kk
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As a very young man, interested in all things to do with motorcycles,but naively at the time, mainly HP stats,I recall being extremely disappointed when I read it back in the '70's.
I have to admit, it did leave a couple of profound impressions on me;the first being that every single thing in the world & life can be described and quantified in one word "'quality".
The other concept that stuck with me was that "mediocrity" was not a desirable end goal.
I think it's one of those books that each individual has a different take,,,I think the fact that I was smoking a lot of dope at the time,probably helped me absorb the "Zen" aspect of his writing. lol :laugh:
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i tried reading it after reading William Least Heat-Moon’s Blue Highways thinking it was a similar novel of travel and personal pholosphy but on a motorcycle. Don’t recall how far I got but likeky not very.
Pete
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I remember the guy he was traveling with had a problem with his fancy BMW that required a simple fix of a shim.Robert said it could be fixed right now by making the shim out of a piece of beer can. His friend was horrified at the thought of using metal that wasn’t made by BMW. His “value rigidity “ stopped them from fixing the problem even though the can piece was perfect.Everything depends on your point of view including the book.
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It's been over 20 years since I read it but I thought it was cool. To me it was about paying attention to the small things and how they are connected to a larger whole, how being a truly good mechanic requires curiosity and thoughtfulness. Wasn't the easiest thing to read but I did get something out of it.
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I'm happy to know I'm not the only one that couldn't get through it! :shocked:
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I was dumb enough to read it all. The main take away is the two ways of looking at things, what it is or what it means. A small part, say a float pivot pin is nothing really but it is the whole value of the bike when you drop it in the desert. The guy was nuts but did understand some things that he had a hard time articulating. He ended up getting electric shock treatment and at the end of the book was beginning to see the signs of mental illness in his son.
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About 20 years ago on this forum, I expressed a negative opinion about ZATAOMM and was raked over the coals.
'OH, you just didn't get it '.
I got it all right. I just didn't want it.
Bill Lovelady IS
Eskimo Spy
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I tried to read this years ago but couldn’t get through it. It’s a prime example of something Samuel Johnson said in the 1700s: “No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money.“
Amen!
Two philosophy classes at college taught me that many so called "philosophers" are simply people who can't talk, think, or write coherently, but who have figured out how to earn a paycheck from arguing about nothing. For many of them, words truly have no meaning. Oddly enough, both my philosophy professors agreed with my observation.
Perhaps the greatest school of philosophy ever is the "School of the Ontological Oil Thread."
I shall always be indebted to Samual Johnson for penning the following:
"The fountain of content must spring up in the mind, and he who has so little knowledge of human nature as to seek happiness by changing anything but his own disposition, will waste his life in fruitless efforts, and multiply the grief he proposes to remove."
Pure gold! His advice can save one a lot of arguments.
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I read the book, twice. First time I struggled through it. Second time I understood more of what it was really about. It's complicated with several topics seemingly unrelated to focus on. Quite a few years ago, at a Guzzi rally around the campfire, I was whining about my chosen career as a maintenance technician in a production factory. It just didn't pay as much as I thought it should. Then a guy sitting next to me suggested I read "Shop Class As Soulcraft" by Matthew B Crawford. It basically covered similar topics like quality and pride in your work without the ancient philosophy and mental illness distractions. It made me feel a lot better about my job and carried me to retirement with a much better attitude.
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I read it, and thought, "He's right! Buddha is in motorcycles! After all, don't they go 'bhudda bhudda bhudda bhudda bhudda'?"
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Interesting. My takeaway from college philosophy was the cone analogy.
At the bottom of the cone represented one's current state of knowledge, which to some could be considered very well developed as the sides of the cone are close and it could appear as though all that was knowable was close at hand. Journey up the cone and the sides rapidly fall further and further away. Further up the cone knowledge increases and the amount of "knowable things" expands at an ever expanding rate.
A very interesting concept indeed.
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I read the book, twice. First time I struggled through it. Second time I understood more of what it was really about. It's complicated with several topics seemingly unrelated to focus on. Quite a few years ago, at a Guzzi rally around the campfire, I was whining about my chosen career as a maintenance technician in a production factory. It just didn't pay as much as I thought it should. Then a guy sitting next to me suggested I read "Shop Class As Soulcraft" by Matthew B Crawford. It basically covered similar topics like quality and pride in your work without the ancient philosophy and mental illness distractions. It made me feel a lot better about my job and carried me to retirement with a much better attitude.
+1 on Shop Class. It is an excellent book.
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Ah, the distinct sense that the Bomb Cyclone is settling in here on WG :boozing: :grin:
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Interesting. My takeaway from college philosophy was the cone analogy.
At the bottom of the cone represented one's current state of knowledge, which to some could be considered very well developed as the sides of the cone are close and it could appear as though all that was knowable was close at hand. Journey up the cone and the sides rapidly fall further and further away. Further up the cone knowledge increases and the amount of "knowable things" expands at an ever expanding rate.
A very interesting concept indeed.
That is an interesting concept.
I naively approached taking college philosophy classes as step in the search for wisdom, or excellent advice for living life well.
What I encountered could be analogous not to engineers solving problems, but to lawyers endless arguments in order to bill their clients larger fees. The process of argument itself was the end goal.
Luckily, continued searching yielded much better sources of wisdom and useful advice.
I have enjoyed, benefited from, and given away many copies of
1. James Allen's book As A Man Thinketh,
2. Ayn Rand's book Philosophy: Who Needs it?, and
3. the Maxwell Staniforth translation of Marcus Aurelius' book Meditations.
The book "Meditations" is a fascinating concept. A book of worthwhile thoughts one should keep in mind to improve the quality of one's life. Supposedly, the title actually translates as "To Myself."
As excellent book to give to those in their teen age years who wish to master life. IME, that is what all teen agers seek.
Even those teenagers who are in our 60's........ :wink:
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The process of argument itself was the end goal.
:grin: :grin: :grin: https://youtu.be/ohDB5gbtaEQ :grin: :grin: :grin:
:popcorn:
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Ah, the distinct sense that the Bomb Cyclone is settling in here on WG :boozing: :grin:
“Sometimes when a guy contemplates his navel, he finds lint.” (attributed to Confucius)
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:grin: :grin: :grin: https://youtu.be/ohDB5gbtaEQ :grin: :grin: :grin:
:popcorn:
Unfortunately, arguments on the internet often lead to oppression and or repression....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2c-X8HiBng
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Never read it and don't care to. I find most literature about motorcycles are BS except Service Manuals.
I don't do bike magazines, internet reviews, nothing. Only the Guzzi News from Frank.
I find all of it doesn't fit my situation ever, always a waste of time.
the book isn't about motorcycles. Or Zen.
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the book isn't about motorcycles. Or Zen.
Which Persig tells you up front. It's a ghost story..Persig is haunted by his past, his struggle with mental illness. It's a story about a father trying desperately to bond with his son. Don't know what's so tough about any of that. It's a great book. I've read it cover to cover twice.
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Which Persig tells you up front. It's a ghost story..Persig is haunted by his past, his struggle with mental illness. It's a story about a father trying desperately to bond with his son. Don't know what's so tough about any of that. It's a great book. I've read it cover to cover twice.
That's exactly the problem with self-styled philosophers. They use words that don't mean what they think they mean! :wink:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSSW3YNgzNQ
Disclaimer: the title of my book has nothing to do with the contents of my book.
I admire Persig's chutzpah! And his publisher's marketing skills. As evidenced by the comments above, by deceptively titling the book, they obviously sold a lot of books to people who had no interest in the subject matter!
A man with a mental illness we all can identify with! What's not to like?
Let those of us who have not lied about things in which we are not expert cast the first marshmallow! :wink:
Kinda like slipping the Playboy magazine inside an old motorcycle magazine cover to fool your mother......
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Biggest problem was the book is it's all but undigestible to even the most astute and dedicated reader, and then only if you read the afterward Persig wrote and added to the paperback something like 10 years later-- which makes it a bit clearer...
I would still classify it as a good 'ol slog to get thru. I've read it a couple times, some might say 'pearls before swine', but I think it's just a largely boring book with (at best) a handful of pages that left a lasting impression and it made few salient points in total.
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Biggest problem was the book is it's all but undigestible to even the most astute and dedicated reader, and then only if you read the afterward Persig wrote and added to the paperback something like 10 years later-- which makes it a bit clearer...
I would still classify it as a good 'ol slog to get thru. I've read it a couple times, some might say 'pearls before swine', but I think it's just a largely boring book with (at best) a handful of pages that left a lasting impression and it made few salient points in total.
Mayor I salute you!
Those are excellent points. I suspect for most, there has to be some useful information periodically scattered thru out any book to hold one's interest.
How many have picked up a classic, including some books that can not be mentioned at WG, and if they don't find a pearl of wisdom in the first 5, 10, 20, or 50 pages to pique their interest, they abandon the book as "not a good book." I know I have done so many times.
I have often marveled how some authors can pack a lot of wisdom/information into a quotation of 30 words or less. While other authors need 100+ pages to say "Roses are red!"
One of my favorite professors had two great sayings. "Words mean things!" and "You have to listen to the words!"
Another favorite professor had an equally great saying. "It was a good book at 300 pages. At 100 pages, it would have been a great book!"
As always, wisdom, like beauty will be in the eye of the beholder.
Tis a great thing!!!!!
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“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
(Pirsig, Zen ...)
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Glad I’m not alone! I thought I was the only person who couldn’t get through reading the book.
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Well, some us read it many times-like every few years. Not really sure how it's the author's problem if some don't care for it or possibly lose sight of the face the fact that the author is very clear that (as mentioned above) the book has little to do with both Zen and motorcycle maintenance.
It's also interesting that a great deal of classical Greek logic is involving the metaphors used in the book-and the basic rules of inference and logic seem to be missing in action for a great part of the world today-ALL over the globe.
"And what is good, Pharedrus, need we others to tell us these things?" This is not intended as a slight or "rub" but offered in the spirit of understanding, which usually goes horribly wrong.............. .........
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"And what is good, Pharedrus, need we others to tell us these things?" This is not intended as a slight or "rub" but offered in the spirit of understanding, which usually goes horribly wrong.............. .........
Amen.
The author is just a transmitter. The reader is just a receiver.
As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it is only the end user who can judge the personal value of whatever they observe!
Which is why philosophical argumentation is so entertaining. It's all subjective.... except for those parts that are relative! :grin:
"Never cast pearls before swine! They would rather have acorns!"
"When one encounters someone casting pearls before swine, it is not against the swine that one feels indignation!"
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I read the book years ago, as I recall his ramblings were somewhat coherent but I felt he was slowly loosing it and felt sorry for his kid who had to be there while his father went farther and farther down the rabbit hole.
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I read the book years ago, as I recall his ramblings were somewhat coherent but I felt he was slowly loosing it and felt sorry for his kid who had to be there while his father went farther and farther down the rabbit hole.
Robert Persig's Problem: He had MAJOR issues which came through in his ramblings and writing...However, he lived to 88.
Hunter S. Thompson ("Song Of The Sausage Creature") also had major issues...and look how that ended...
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Tried to read it several times over the years and eventually got through it.
Only thing that comes to mind is the kid riding on the back couldn't see much.
Not deep enough to go into all the psychological implications to that.
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To Persig, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" Sigmund Freud
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I do not know what this says about me but I have read and reread Zen and The Art many times but not recently. You have to read Persig's work with an eye toward the 70s. There is a bit of hippy culture haunting a guy who basically was a technical writer. I think that a lot of what he wrote has relevance for what is happening today. Maybe I will pull out my old copy.
I also read Moby Dick for fun.
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It says you like to exercise your mind.
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I do not know what this says about me but I have read and reread Zen and The Art many times but not recently. You have to read Persig's work with an eye toward the 70s. There is a bit of hippy culture haunting a guy who basically was a technical writer. I think that a lot of what he wrote has relevance for what is happening today. Maybe I will pull out my old copy.
I also read Moby Dick for fun.
I have no idea what it says about you.
IMHO, that is the coolest part about the interaction between the transmitter and the receiver, what the receiver picks up, may not have any accurate connection to the information the transmitter was sending.
As the old saying goes: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think!" :wink:
Humans have an infinite capacity to interpret, and we are as subjective as Hell. One man's trash is another man's treasure! Viva la difference of opinion.
There are so many "good books" out there, why waste time with a "bad book?" Hmmmmm....... now if you are stuck on an island with only a couple books.....
Only the individual reader gets to discern the difference between trash and treasure!!!
The authors "know" the books they write are "good" books!
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I was flipping through the book and found this short passage: "If the machine produces tranquillity it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed. The test of the machine's always your own mind. There isn't any other test." Seems to me any Moto Guzzi rider should understand that.
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I was flipping through the book and found this short passage: "If the machine produces tranquillity it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed. The test of the machine's always your own mind. There isn't any other test." Seems to me any Moto Guzzi rider should understand that.
Saying the book has no relation to motorcycle maintenance is evidence of not having read past the first few pages.
“And it occurred to me there is no manual that deals with the real business of motorcycle maintenance, the most important aspect of all. Caring about what you are doing is considered either unimportant or taken for granted.”
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I was flipping through the book and found this short passage: "If the machine produces tranquillity it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed. The test of the machine's always your own mind. There isn't any other test." Seems to me any Moto Guzzi rider should understand that.
Amen Motorbike!!!
That is excellent advice for all of life.
You can substitute almost any word for "machine" in the above quote, and the statement will be equally valid.
Loss of tranquility or equanimity is almost always due to the perspective we choose, much more so than the object itself.
Regarding opinions one might read on the internet....
"If the machine "poster's opinion" produces tranquillity it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine "poster's opinion" or your mind is changed. The test of the machine's "poster's opinion" is always your own mind. There isn't any other test."
Moto Guzzi riders (and in mind, any emotionally mature adult) should understand this, indeed.
Why entrust your peace of mind to anyone other than yourself? This has long seemed a very foolish thing to do to me. It is a certain recipe for frequent unhappiness.
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I don’t remember if Persig said it in his book, I imagine he did for he was thorough but it is the concept that you tend to build your emotional state into what you are working on. If you are mentally good, you will put that in the machine and the opposite is true. I know that’s one of the things learned in human factors engineering classes but don’t recall if Persig wrote it in Zen. Maybe someone who has read it recently can say