Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Huzo on February 12, 2023, 04:10:43 AM
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Can someone tell me what the Idle Stepper Base reading refers to ?
(https://i.ibb.co/6BN5WZq/9-D4-FE59-A-4-C2-D-4824-BC66-29827-E7-E477-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6BN5WZq)
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I thought that some better informed than me would have popped up by now H
I think that it's a baseline remembered by the ECU that the stepper starts to count from and is set by the initial physical jerks set by the bike at start-up.
However, I'm happy to be corrected if that is incorrect
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Hmmm.
My Norge has started idling too high, around 1800 rpm, then sort of settles….Sort of.
I have checked the stepper motor and it cycles when I switch the key on and off. I might have picked up an air leak somewhere…Dunno.
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If a bit of crud has got in there it could hold the valve open a tad and the ECU would see that as the base line which could cause it to be lean as it would start from the slightly open position
A coat of cleaning might help and IIRC you can make GD stroke the valve, but its a long while since I've messed with a CARC bike.
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Mmmm.
As you see it’s currently at 100.
What the hell does that even mean ?
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I don't know of ANY FI engine that does not idle higher when first started then settles down. This includes my 2022 Ford F150, My 2012 Victory and my 2007 MG Norge. As long as it comes back to 900-1100 idle after a minute you are good.
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Mmmm.
As you see it’s currently at 100.
What the hell does that even mean ?
I Don't think that it means anything, it's just a number to start with
Your description seems to suggest a sticky valve to me, and if you're asking nout the Norge I'd guess that it's a new feature
Bloody expensive new, so hopefully a clean will sort it out .
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I don't know of ANY FI engine that does not idle higher when first started then settles down. This includes my 2022 Ford F150, My 2012 Victory and my 2007 MG Norge. As long as it comes back to 900-1100 idle after a minute you are good.
This happened when I got back from picking it up from the depot in Melbourne. I have had the tank off and airbox out, so I took the stepper off and gave it a spray internally (as much as one can). I’ve had this bike a long time and know it well, I’m just glad it happened here and not in Europe.
I still have to properly fix the wiring issue that occurred in Europe, but I cannot see how that is relevant.
But anyway…Onwards and upwards..! :thumb:
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Just had a thought.
Can you reach under the tank with some long forcepts and grab the air feed line to the valve and choke it off?
If you can and the idle drops that would indicate a faulty valve.
Also GD has a stepper test IIRC revs should change when you push it
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Just had a thought.
Can you reach under the tank with some long forcepts and grab the air feed line to the valve and choke it off?
If you can and the idle drops that would indicate a faulty valve.
Also GD has a stepper test IIRC revs should change when you push it
That is a good diagnostic ploy Tris, I did not think of it and will pursue it.
Thanks.
What I’ll do is pull the vacuum line off and plug it, then throw the tank back on and check it out. Funny thing is, I could never get a nice idle with the gears installed in the timing chest.
I’m doing a FULL service (200,000 k) so there are dozens of things on the go, the bike is in a hundred bits at the moment, but good fun..
I needed a new gasket for the timing cover and could not get one, but good old Roper came to the rescue..
A rock of Gibraltar if ever there was.
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Good luck matey :thumb:
These valves are a POS. I had 2 at one point and both if driven shut with a little circuit I conjured up one side would leak.
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How many miles? Worn TB's will give you a high idle.
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How many miles? Worn TB's will give you a high idle.
Yeah 208,000 km (128,000 miles).
Thing is, I stopped to say hi to a mate on the way home after picking up the bike and it started and idled normally.
Then 15 minutes later at home as I pulled in, the idle sat at 1800…
Not the biggest drama I guess.
The suggestion was to crimp the air feed to the stepper to see if that dropped the rpm, if it did then it’s a faulty stepper.
I think I’ll follow that course, but instead just take the airbox cover off and plug the hole from in there.
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A picture’s worth a thousand words, so here it is…
https://youtu.be/OMCbqZI58Ps
BTW…
Those gears are for sale, there is NOTHING wrong with them, I’m just staying with the chain…
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FWIW: I was working on a Stevlio that had a bit of a rough idle and it would idle at about 1500. After much reading, it was fine to idle there or could try cleaning the stepper motor.
For the Stelvio, you just had to pull the battery and it's mounting case, no messing with the air box. The stepper hose was then easy to get to. Sprayed some TB cleaner in the hose and let it sit a few minutes. Repeat then turn the key on and listen for the stepper. Repeat a few times to cycle it. Spray more cleaner and then start the bike. With luck that should do the trick. worked for me. Idle now at 1100 to 1200 as it should be.
Good luck!
Tom
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Just for kicks I looked up a new one, GASP $814.00 USD In 2009 they were $100.
It's not even needed if you put a manual valve in the hose, like a $15 inline fuel tap.
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Just for kicks I looked up a new one, GASP $814.00 USD In 2009 they were $100.
It's not even needed if you put a manual valve in the hose, like a $15 inline fuel tap.
I will start by blocking it off inside the airbox to see if that’s the cause.
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I tried pinching the hose with pliers, the first time it seemed to make a change. The second time it made no difference in the high idle. Just sayin'
Tom
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Just for kicks I looked up a new one, GASP $814.00 USD In 2009 they were $100.
It's not even needed if you put a manual valve in the hose, like a $15 inline fuel tap.
It's a standard Ducati part, but availability might be better on the Ducatis.
Interestingly Ducati changed the design on later bikes, so they obviously sussed that it was a pants design. Sadly I don't believe that they're interchangeable
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I did what Tris suggested and blocked the air supply to the stepper.
I did it inside the air box and the idle immediately dropped to 1000 rpm but a bit erratic.
So it’s the stepper.
I’ll see if it settles, because it could still be an erroneous command from a sensor.
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That's progress.
IIRC it was Kevin in NZ who did some work and proved that blocking the air feed dropped the idle speed to 1k.
The reason it's lumpy is probably because the TB bypasses are now wrong because you have been tuning out the leak.
Worth having a go at cleaning it though
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Okay here’s the latest.
There are a few functions on GD that I don’t know how to drive. I successfully got the TPS reset done along with self learning parameter reset so that’s ok. The TPS value is sitting around 4.7 which is what Beetle says is the go.
At one point, I was looking at the TPS reading and it fluctuated around without any intervention by me, but it’s settled at 4.7 so on we go.
After reading over Beetle’s tutorial again on CO trim procedure, I thought that my fast idle might be a function of that being arse up….
It was on +1 so I ratcheted it in both directions quite a way, but there seemed to be no real change. It’s currently at -10 which is within decent limits according to Beetle.
But it’s still not dropping down to a steady 1150 idle.
Now I see there’s this function on GD
(https://i.ibb.co/NWTQvN6/411-BD663-745-F-47-FA-AC1-A-4-EC5-EA2-D2-F71.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NWTQvN6)
With this showing up on the readout
(https://i.ibb.co/JRhHyGR/864-D9-C0-D-D5-AC-4-BEE-8-A18-3-E1-A7065-B5-F7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JRhHyGR)
What conclusions should I be drawing and is there something I should be doing ?
Just for general interest, at one point the engine was idling at (more or less) 1,300 rpm then with no intervention by me, dropped SUDDENLY down to 900 rpm then caught and just as suddenly jumped back up to 1200 or so.
Is this an erratic stepper ?
There are no apparent air leaks in the intake tract.
Interestingly enough, I cleared away some stored faults and ran it up again, there were no actual faults recorded.
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It might be a faulty TPS.
GD has a graph feature. Get it to trace TPS, and slowly and steadily open the throttle to WOT and see if you get any random jumps.
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It might be a faulty TPS.
GD has a graph feature. Get it to trace TPS, and slowly and steadily open the throttle to WOT and see if you get any random jumps.
I’ll do that tomorrow Tris.
Also I have this spare stepper.
(https://i.ibb.co/QdQ5rZB/46-C7234-E-BE04-409-C-A747-8828-B934-D6-AF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QdQ5rZB)
(https://i.ibb.co/4VPDK2R/17818611-15-D2-4992-8975-A10-E022-BCC08.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4VPDK2R)
The one with the white text on it is the non original spare. It can be seen that the two number sets on each one are different.
Does anyone know what significance these numbers hold ?
Also I don’t know what this does
(https://i.ibb.co/NWTQvN6/411-BD663-745-F-47-FA-AC1-A-4-EC5-EA2-D2-F71.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NWTQvN6)
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This is what it did this morning.
(https://i.ibb.co/whcyDWZ/37-AD6-A94-08-BE-4663-BCEC-76-EACD55328-E.png) (https://ibb.co/whcyDWZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/MDkd8YW/78-C0-D391-0-A06-4-E50-903-E-CC0833-A33040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MDkd8YW)
Can I ask, what is the potentiometer rear throttle position code telling me ?
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Short and sweet.
What is the best method for cleaning throttle bodies on the Norge ?
I am happy to remove them.
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When I did this on my 1200 Sport I just removed the throttle bodies as a set and used spray carb cleaner on them.
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When I did this on my 1200 Sport I just removed the throttle bodies as a set and used spray carb cleaner on them.
IIRC, the last time I cleaned one, I was advised to use a specific Throttle body cleaner. Something about damage to the inside coating of the TB could occur if standard carb spray used.
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I’ve also read there’s a distinct difference between the two cleaners.
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Its best to use the spray made specifically for TBs. Regular carb cleaner may be too harsh for some of the components. I have carefully used some gasoline, and a little brush to clean them when thats all I had on hand. I figgured, they are exposed to gas anyway, so it could not hurt anything.
Rick.
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I figgured, they are exposed to gas anyway, so it could not hurt anything.
Rick.
Well, not really.
They are upstream of the injectors.
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Good opportunity to replace the TPS while you're there based on your other thread perhaps.
Standard part for an Alpha IIRC for a fraction of MGs price will do the job
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Good opportunity to replace the TPS while you're there based on your other thread perhaps.
Standard part for an Alpha IIRC for a fraction of MGs price will do the job
What does IIRC mean and how do I know I’m buying the right one ?
I feel a Roper chat, coming on… :popcorn:
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It says “rear throttle position sensor to (sic) low”
Does that mean “off throttle position sensor” ?
Also here’s a diagram of the TPS function over smooth throttle cycle.
(https://i.ibb.co/gjpSLk3/080-AA9-A4-4-F5-D-4-E71-B44-A-DBE1-E81092-E9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gjpSLk3)
(https://i.ibb.co/c33CGmR/92452491-1446-4677-A3-D7-48019-A2-E829-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c33CGmR)
jerry built crossword (https://the-crosswordsolver.com/jerry-built-9-letters)
Out of interest, I notice he “throttle” line, fluctuates a little upon closing. Is that to be expected or indicative of an anomaly in the TPS ?
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What does IIRC mean…
Stand back, I got this one:
IIRC = lf I recall
That one took a long time to stick for me, too, FWIW
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Stand back, I got this one:
IIRC = lf I recall
That one took a long time to stick for me, too, FWIW
OMG…LOL. !
FYI I had no idea.
Now that you’ve deciphered it, I’m thinking it may be “If I Recall Correctly…” but that’s just a WAG… :rolleyes:
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there was wild debate on the ghetto about this procedure, IIRC the gurus told everyone they were doing it wrong but didn't exactly say what the right procedure is.....
If you figure it out let me know!!
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What do dirty throttle body’s look like? I have my norge in pieces now and there is some staining on the tube where the butterfly sits at idle but I wouldn’t call them dirty.
What exactly needs cleaning on them? I fully expected to have to scrap carbon or rotten fuel out of them.
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What do dirty throttle body’s look like? I have my norge in pieces now and there is some staining on the tube where the butterfly sits at idle but I wouldn’t call them dirty.
What exactly needs cleaning on them? I fully expected to have to scrap carbon or rotten fuel out of them.
The important bit is where the throttle blade meets the body wall. When this area gets dirty, it affects air flow at idle - therefore, idle fuel mixture. If bad enough it can make the throttle feel 'sticky' like it pops loose from an idle but is smooth afterwards. (not so much a problem on ours, since the blade doesn't actually touch the wall like cars) Generally the staining and deposits in the rest of the body don't affect anything unless they are very, very bad. On my bike, and on all my throttle body cars for decades, I access the throttle blades and spray what I can get at without disassembly, then spray a little at idle while running any time I change the air filter, just as periodic maintenance.
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What do dirty throttle body’s look like? I have my norge in pieces now and there is some staining on the tube where the butterfly sits at idle but I wouldn’t call them dirty.
What exactly needs cleaning on them? I fully expected to have to scrap carbon or rotten fuel out of them.
If yours is an early(ish) 2 VPC, can you take a shot or quote the number inscribed on the top of the TPS ?
Below are one shot of a spare set I have and one of the set on my bike.
The ones on the bike look like they’ve been engraved with Leonardo Da Vinci’s appendage.
It wouldn’t happen in a BMW.
Good old Magneti Marelli.
(https://i.ibb.co/QJm33QJ/8-CB4-EBD2-CA31-4-C47-9-F40-4-AD947-DEBB98.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QJm33QJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/sKHMXVs/718642-FC-956-C-4-DCB-BCD7-AA4-C1-E6-D69-B7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sKHMXVs)
Mine has a blue dot, the spare has a white one… :rolleyes:
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there was wild debate on the ghetto about this procedure, IIRC the gurus told everyone they were doing it wrong but didn't exactly say what the right procedure is.....
If you figure it out let me know!!
If I do mine I’ll give you a shot.
They’ll be as clean as a birds arse…
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2008 and I have a green paint dot…
(https://i.ibb.co/FHXNbgW/67454-E14-CBB2-4-B94-927-F-5041-AB957668.png) (https://ibb.co/FHXNbgW)
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This one comes w/a graph on testing unit.
https://ca-cycleworks.com/pf1c.html
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2008 and I have a green paint dot…
(https://i.ibb.co/FHXNbgW/67454-E14-CBB2-4-B94-927-F-5041-AB957668.png) (https://ibb.co/FHXNbgW)
Ok thanks.
Dunno the significance of the lower line of text.
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from what I've read re cleaning the throttle bodies its all about recycled crankcase gases and the potential contamination with oil from engines which have been run with the oil level high. apparently oil level should be no higher than midway between dipstick marks. the potential damage from using carb cleaner is of causing damage to electrical components.so if you disconnect the rubber pipes to the stepper motor you could clean the bodies with carb cleaner and then clean the stepper motor with throttle body cleaner. don't forget to remove the air bleed screws and clean their passages as well.
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I joining the Guzzidiag club. I bought the hardware, waiting for it to arrive. Downloaded the three applications software. The cost to join is actually quite cheap, Guzzi cheap.
After several modifications to my bike, it is time to give the ignition and fueling a good look. It all seems so confusing and part of a secret handshake club. But I believe it is going to be much simpler than it appears. The first thing I will do is take the Power Commander 3 fuel mixture control off and run only the oem controller. This will take the extra layer of complication out of the adjustment procedures.
Should or is an exhaust gas analyzer need or recommended to make adjustments? If so, what is a good choice for an analyzer that is Guzzi cheap?
The first problem I ran into was downloading the software. I used the downloads from Lonelec. They downloaded first try. When I tried This Old Tractor and others, the computer would get errors on downloading. This worked. https://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/
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What does IIRC mean and how do I know I’m buying the right one ?
I feel a Roper chat, coming on… :popcorn:
IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
Go here http://www.guzziriders.org/throttle-position-sensor-tps_topic525.html
It's a standard (with plenty of equivalents) car part with a massive Guzzi mothership mark up
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IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
Go here http://www.guzziriders.org/throttle-position-sensor-tps_topic525.html
It's a standard (with plenty of equivalents) car part with a massive Guzzi mothership mark up
Thanks as always Tris.
It’s a pain when there are a dozen different serial #’s for the same item. I’m wondering if I should just throw my spare one on and give it a try…
Is there a way to decipher what the serial numbers mean ?
The PF1C/00 seems common to them, but the hieroglyphics on the second row vary wildly.
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I joining the Guzzidiag club. I bought the hardware, waiting for it to arrive. Downloaded the three applications software. The cost to join is actually quite cheap, Guzzi cheap.
After several modifications to my bike, it is time to give the ignition and fueling a good look. It all seems so confusing and part of a secret handshake club. But I believe it is going to be much simpler than it appears. The first thing I will do is take the Power Commander 3 fuel mixture control off and run only the oem controller. This will take the extra layer of complication out of the adjustment procedures.
Should or is an exhaust gas analyzer need or recommended to make adjustments? If so, what is a good choice for an analyzer that is Guzzi cheap?
The first problem I ran into was downloading the software. I used the downloads from Lonelec. They downloaded first try. When I tried This Old Tractor and others, the computer would get errors on downloading. This worked. https://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/
Exhaust gas analyser is not required for what we do.
I would think that if you were making changes to, or building a map, you’d need one.
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There are two diagnostic plugs on the Norge.
Only one lights up the blue indicator light on the OBD cable. What is the other one for ?
(https://i.ibb.co/5GJPYBt/139-E1423-F2-ED-49-E1-A6-FD-AC9-B7774174-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5GJPYBt)
(https://i.ibb.co/m5G86Qd/021-FF19-F-460-B-480-E-9-DC1-797651-E23-A30.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m5G86Qd)
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Dash
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Dash
Ok thanks GS…
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Thanks as always Tris.
It’s a pain when there are a dozen different serial #’s for the same item. I’m wondering if I should just throw my spare one on and give it a try…
Is there a way to decipher what the serial numbers mean ?
The PF1C/00 seems common to them, but the hieroglyphics on the second row vary wildly.
If you go into your local motor factors and ask for a Magnetti PF1C/00 if they're worth anything they'll have the original or a pattern part for small money
Most of the sensors are like that, including O2 sensor in the exhaust.
The big dogs in this business are the car boys, and Guzzi just piggy back on them in the main.
Re throwing your other ICV on.
Looking at the photo and if my eyes are not deceiving me, they look like the alloy body version.
The perceived wisdom when I was looking these things was that the black plastic ones were better
I think that I'd have a stab at cleaning it first.
Costs you nowt and you can still switch if there's no improvement
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Having gone thru this stepper motor issue on my 2015 Griso over the last couple of months, I can share a few items...which may or not be relevant to your case.
1. The plastic Stepper one is almost impossible to open, I was unsuccessful - thankfully at the end. Good luck if you can open yours, but even so, it may not be easy to put back together as it seems to be spring loaded. Cleaning it may help, but I seriously doubt it.
2. Even though I was getting a Stepper Motor error (P0505) along with a SERVICE message and Red Triangle, it turns out that after replacing it with a Ducati one (absolutely don't throw money at a new Guzzi one), the error message was exactly the same. I bought a used Ducati Stepper for $100 bucks from Ebay, it works just like the plastic one, which I now know is perfectly good as the problem is NOT the mechanics or electrics of the Stepper itself.
3. I cleaned every bloody electrical connector possibly, even on the ECU, nothing fixed the problem.
4. There was one isolated case of a Speed sensor on another forum of a fellow a few years ago, (not speedometer sensor) that had caused a Stepper Motor error, so I replaced that as well...no dice.
Ultimately I gave up and took it to Mike at MPH...diagnosis...b ad ECU. There are 4 pins that connect the stepper via the wiring harness to the ECU...I tried cleaning everything with a fine tooth comb, DeOxit etc...nothing could solve the problem of the ECU.
So...before you go throwing good $ at new pieces of hardware like a new Stepper or sensors, I'd check first to see what error messages you are getting via Guzzidiag. If you're not getting error messages, and just a fluctuating idle, I'd spend time cleaning mechanical issues or look for a hose that disconnected from the breather or stepper.
Presumably by now, you have the full sequence of TPS Reset, Auto Learning Parameters, Valve Adjustment, TB balancing with Carbtune or Twinmax all under full control to make sure these are all properly set.
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Again thanks to both Paul and Tris.
The stepper is metal bodied and is completely un serviceable with respect to being able to open. I do have a spare, but as previously mentioned it has different numbers, so if I throw it on and get no improvement in the idle, it could be because it’s the wrong one.
Then I still won’t know if the problem is with the original one.
Also.
I note that the TPS on top of the RH throttle body is non adjustable, so can I break the dreaded yellow paint seal and remove it (after marking it’s position EXACTLY), and throw a new one on ?
I fully expect to have to perform another TB balance and reset etc, but that’s quite ok.
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I just switched my TPS over for a new one and did a TPS reset via GD.
Should be fine as the ECU now knows where "zero" is for the new TPS
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I just switched my TPS over for a new one and did a TPS reset via GD.
Should be fine as the ECU now knows where "zero" is for the new TPS
Ok thank you…