Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sprouty115 on August 02, 2023, 01:36:18 PM
-
Hi,
I have two bikes currently: a '75 R90/6 Airhead, that I managed to get well sorted over the last few years with the help of the Airhead forum on AdvRider...
(https://i.ibb.co/17v6386/IMG-20210605-131812-417.jpg) (https://ibb.co/17v6386)
...a 2020 R1250 GS, that I bought almost new, (73 miles on the odometer when I picked it up) two years ago.
(https://i.ibb.co/TmHSghy/20220716-111321.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TmHSghy)
The problem I'm having is that I love the old Airhead, but sort of only "like" the new bike. And now I'm thinking that it's a lot of money to have invested in a bike that I'm riding less each month.
And the reason I'm here is because the bike that has been in the back of my mind for the last few years has been an early '70's Eldorado. I've been trying to do as much research on this forum as I can and a few others, and it seems to lead to this being a good idea. I think it would make a good shed-mate to the Airhead, give me another bike that was easy to work on, and also free up some cash for a house project.
I think my budget would be about $10k for a bike and I'd be looking for something close to original and in good shape - so first question: is that reasonable? And second, is there anywhere in the RI/CT/MA/NH/VT/ME area that has a swap-meet/group ride/event/whatever coming up where I might run across one of these bikes, so I could actually get a look (and possibly, if I ask nicely, sit on) to see if this bike might work for me?
Cheers,
Stephen
-
$10K should get you a nice, well sorted Eldo. I’ve had two, and currently have a ‘71 Ambassador. Join the Loopframe (V700, Ambo, Eldo) group for some good info.
https://motoguzzi.groups.io/g/LoopFrames/topics
-
If you're a Facebook user, I would recommend joining the group I own there:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/443145212841620
You might check with Mark Etheridge @ Moto Guzzi Classics to see if he has one available at present. 562-986-0070
-
I think for 10K I'd just buy one from Mark.
-AJ
-
...think it's an okay choice except for the front drum brake. That's the major reason I got rid of my '66' BMW R60/2. Nothing like having the full handful on the highway and watching the van out front getting bigger by the second. A number of people added front disk brakes to their Eldos for that reason.
I'm really in love with my T3. Old enough to be charming. Modern enough to stop quickly and straight.
-
...think it's an okay choice except for the front drum brake. That's the major reason I got rid of my '66' BMW R60/2. Nothing like having the full handful on the highway and watching the van out front getting bigger by the second. A number of people added front disk brakes to their Eldos for that reason.
I'm really in love with my T3. Old enough to be charming. Modern enough to stop quickly and straight.
The last of the Eldos had a (single) disk brake. Unfortunately, like the 850-T, the master cylinder fitted was too large (15mm) and braking power and feel suffered. A swap to a master cylinder with a smaller piston (13 mm), or adding a second disk and caliper, or changing the caliper to an F09 are a few ways of making it better.
The drum brakes of a Loop can be made much better with careful choice of cable and brake shoes, proper arcing and installation of the shoes, and proper adjustment of the brake.
-
The drum brakes of a Loop can be made much better with careful choice of cable and brake shoes, proper arcing and installation of the shoes, and proper adjustment of the brake.
+1 to the above statement. When I first took my 73 Eldo to Charlie for new tires & a new front brake cable, he adjusted the front drum as best he could without getting into the real nitty-gritty of the issue. The brake worked better than it had before he worked on it, but it was still just "barely OK" even though the brake linings were well within specs, and required lots of attention to avoid potential panic-stop situations on every ride. Fast forward about 3 years to another visit to Charlie for attention to nagging issues with the bike's wiring (completely cured now, by the way), & Charlie took another wack at the front brake and did all the above-mentioned work. The drum now works great - I could probably fairly easily lock the front wheel while stopping, but that's not a goal I want to try for. Loops with double leading shoe brakes, I'm told, stop better, but I'm also told that they are harder to adjust for optimum performance.
Bottom line, a drum-brake loop can be made to stop about as well as many other bikes of the same vintage. On the other hand, getting a late 1974 or a 75 Eldorado with the single front disc brake would, I'm told, give braking performance as good or better than a well-adjusted single leading shoe drum with probably less need to adjust the pads periodically.
For $10K, you probably could find a well sorted-out Eldorado that has been modified to have a double front disc brake set-up, which would most likely improve braking performance even closer to modern standards. All the above info, however, is mostly guesswork on my part since I've never ridden a single or dual disc front brake version of a loop. I did once ride a Convert (auto transmission) with dual front discs & didn't notice any concerning weakness in front brake performance, but I was concentrating more on other aspects of the riding experience - mostly seating comfort and handling.
If you haven't stumbled on a conversation/post about "chrome vs. nikasil" (various spellings) bores, do research that before you buy any late 60s to late 70s big Guzzi. Most issues that are common on the old bikes of this age are reasonably easy &/or inexpensive to get corrected, but replacing or replating cylinder walls can get expensive, & it can be much worse if the issue has been neglected to the point that the bottom end of the bike has been damaged.
-
Another thought about your search for an early 70's Eldorado - don't necessarily buy the first one you find that is only somewhat "close" to what you want. I looked for a couple of years before I bought mine - for a bit more than the going rate at the time but that's another story - and I still keep an eye on the market. There don't seem to be a lot of them on the market right now, but there are plenty of them around and their advertised availability seems to go in cycles. Secondly, the prettiest ones on the market can have as many or more hidden problems as a less pretty one - I've heard more than a few stories of people selling "fully restored" bikes that turned out when delivered to be purely cosmetic restorations (new paint, lots of polishing) with electrical systems on their last legs (see also "chrome vs. nikasil" comment in my other post). Incorrect parts, if they work, are really only a problem i you're looking to show or have bragging rights, but lots of loop owners have done creative mix & match repair work & you shouldn't pay a "factory correct" price. "Bring a Trailer" bikes are sometimes a prime example of this.
-
Brakes can be made better, but not as good as good disks.
The /2 had a double leading shoe lined with 232RS (Per Vech at Bench Mark Works). They were an intimate fit to the drum. My T3 still stops a lot better with medium friction Organic pads. If I put on HH pads there is no comparison.
-
I put 115K miles on my '72 Eldo before I gave it away, and now I wish I had it back. Buy one from Mark Ethridge, and I second the front disc talk.
-
Sprouty,
I have a very nice 73 Eldorado in RI if you want to look at one. It has original paint and striping, but all of the mechanicals have been dealt with. Low 20k miles.
Bill Bassett
-
Hi Folks,
Apologies for the delayed response, I assumed I would get an email or notification if I got a response to my post. Maybe I have a click something for that to happen?
Anyway, thanks for all the replies. It sounds like I should be ok with the budget, which was the main question I needed answered.
And I will definitely check in with Mark Etheridge. Sounds like a reputable shop, appreciate the suggestion.
As for brakes, it sounds like the same issue with early Airheads, so I'll keep that in mind. Obviously, there is a lot of knowledge available so I have a lot more reading to do here and on a few other sites suggested.
And finally, a couple of people have reached out about bikes they may be selling. I am definitely interested, but since I'm just starting this process, I really need to sell the other bike before I start shopping. Nothing worse than a buyer without money bothering sellers. But once that is taken care of, I'll send PM's and see where things are.
Cheers,
Stephen
-
If you sell the big bike ,what are you going to ride on your big trips to Alaska or Labrador?Maybe you are just an old school rider but thoseold bikes won’t cut it on a big ride these days unless you have lots of time,good luck either way you decide to go.In my case I have a Stelvio for rallies and a couple old Guzzis for local jaunts.
-
If you sell the big bike ,what are you going to ride on your big trips to Alaska or Labrador?Maybe you are just an old school rider but thoseold bikes won’t cut it on a big ride these days unless you have lots of time,good luck either way you decide to go.In my case I have a Stelvio for rallies and a couple old Guzzis for local jaunts.
The Eldorado will take him wherever he wants to go. (Read Nick Adams travels).
-
The Eldorado will take him wherever he wants to go. (Read Nick Adams travels).
:thumb:
-
The Eldorado will take him wherever he wants to go. (Read Nick Adams travels).
Just slower. 🙂
-AJ
-
Just slower. 🙂
-AJ
Just gives you a chance to look at stuff. It's about the ride, not the destination.
-
If you sell the big bike ,what are you going to ride on your big trips to Alaska or Labrador?Maybe you are just an old school rider but thoseold bikes won’t cut it on a big ride these days unless you have lots of time,good luck either way you decide to go.In my case I have a Stelvio for rallies and a couple old Guzzis for local jaunts.
It's a fair point. And there is no doubt the 1250 is the most comfortable and capable bike I've ever owned. But the last trip to New Foundland (starting in Rhode Island) was on a KTM 690, and I've been on a few trips that were 3K-miles on the 690 as well, and that bike is basically two-wheels, a motor and a board for a seat.
Also I've been to Canada on my R90/6, which is infinitely more comfortable on the road than the 690, so I think have a feel for the "step back" I would be making.
Why not keep both? The truth is, I don't have the room for 3 bikes or the budget (well I'd need to buy an unrestored bike and then take my time going through it). And while that's the route I took with my Airhead, I'm not sure I want to commit to that right now.
Also, I just spent a few hours last weekend going through what's required for the 12K service on the 1250. The dealer says plan on a $1000. And if I do it myself, well, checking valves is reasonable, setting the clearance involves a little more, but adjusting the shift-cam timing requires a commitment to fixtures in the hundreds of dollars. And then if something goes wrong with that bike...oof!
So yeah, I hear you, but on the other hand, it's not like I couldn't easily pick up another GS?
-
The Eldorado will take him wherever he wants to go. (Read Nick Adams travels).
It's funny you mention Nick - I watched one of his videos and that spurred the post.
-
It's funny you mention Nick - I watched one of his videos and that spurred the post.
That's what headed me up to Labrador. Canadian Tourism Bureau should be paying him a retainer.
-
That's what headed me up to Labrador. Canadian Tourism Bureau should be paying him a retainer.
True...
And in other news, the new BMW is listed, now the waiting begins. Truthfully, I hate selling bikes.
...BMW is sold, now I start looking.
-
And the process is now complete!
(https://i.ibb.co/kx1FDkt/72-3-Civ-Eldo-8-10-23-40.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kx1FDkt)
(https://i.ibb.co/M2pnTMR/72-3-Civ-Eldo-8-24-23-16.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M2pnTMR)
-
Congratulations. The bike looks great. Of course, we need more detail.
-
That's a beauty. I like the white loops.
-
Sorry, this turned out longer than expected, so tl;dr - I bought the bike from a person on this site, it has a "mechanical restoration and cleaning". It also appears to be a low-mileage bike that has been repainted. Oh, and I'm really happy...
And since you asked, here's the longer version...
I obviously don't know anything about Moto Guzzi, but over the last few years of working on my '75 R90/6, I kept thinking about a bike I had seen once on the web (I mentioned it in my first post). I'm not sure what it was about the bike, and even though I never saved the picture, for some reason I just kept thinking about it.
Fast-forward a few years and I have a new 1250GS, which is an absolutely amazing bike, but...I found myself riding it about half as much as my old bike. Worse, I have zero interest in buying the fixturing and tooling to adjust the valve lash or set the phasing of the shift cam (each camshaft, four in total, has two sets of lobes and they slide axially depending on RPM and probably a hundred other inputs from the ECM - it's brilliant engineering, but complicated and expensive...). It's a $600+ investment and is involved, but doable - I just wasn't up for it on the new bike.
So one day I mentioned to my wife I was considering selling the new bike, and surprisingly, she seemed ok about it. I was concerned since she loves riding with me on it, but then again she also likes riding on the old bike as well. Her only request was to make sure it was comfortable for her (I ended up putting an old gigantic tank on the BMW at one point, but because it pushed me back, it totally screwed up her seating as well).
I keep thinking about it and decide to see if I can find the image again. I started searching for it with everything I remembered about it, which was not much: "Blue Eldorado NYC". Well the Internet being what it is, I managed to find it despite it actually being a blue V7 Sport from somewhere in Germany(?)...
And here it is:
(https://i.ibb.co/8XdVP3v/1-Blue-Ambassador.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8XdVP3v)
From there I just fell down the rabbit hole of more bikes I liked:
Like this...
(https://i.ibb.co/bW6Ss50/1-Red-with-chrome-fenders-asnd-black-panniers-Pipeburn-front.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bW6Ss50)
And this...
(https://i.ibb.co/Pr7yTCq/1-Teal-in-field.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pr7yTCq)
I could go on, but the point is, I decided to go for it.
I started with Mark Etheridge, and was considering (for a very short time) of buying a fully restored bike from him. He was going to send pictures of what he had, but we never connected after the first call, and since I really didn't think I could drop $20K on a bike, I never followed up.
This one came from a member of the site who messaged me (I'd mention him by name, but I'm not sure of the site etiquette with regards to that?). In fact a few folks did that, so thanks again, and I definitely considered them all. It just turned out that after looking at the Blue V7 and about a thousand other Eldorados and Ambassadors, this bike ended up having everything I wanted. So after a bunch emails, texts, and phone calls, last Wednesday I flew down, rented a 10' Uhaul van, loaded it up and drove it back home (8hrs door-to-door). It was a long day, but I'm pretty thrilled about having it.
As I understand it, this bike came from an estate sale, in pieces, and not running, and then brought back to life with a "mechanical restoration" and general clean up. The bike is a 1973 civilian model built in Sept '72. The odometer shows 13,785 miles and while you can never know for certain what the true mileage is, this definitely doesn't appear to be high-mileage bike. The engine and transmission have been gone through (the list is long and includes new nikasil plating on the cylinders, carburetors, rear drive, u-joint, carrier bearing and electrics, etc), and pretty much everything else has been cleaned and inspected.
It also came with period-correct Wixom bags and fairing, plus a cool but incredibly large top case for the rear (I think it's called a "Ranger"). The bike does appear to have been repainted, but the chrome on the tank is good and it was cleaned and re-lined, so the bike should be good to go.
Right now it's tucked away next to the old BMW in the man-cave, so I go out and look at it a few times a day while I wait for the title so I can register it. I did remove the fairing and bags just to get a better look at the bike and to make it easier to figure out how to do the regular maintenance.
My intention is to keep it stock and to enjoy it. I haven't planned any changes...though I did just order the stock "civilian" handlebars from Harpers, as the bars on the bike now don't agree with my wrists. And I might be considering a solo seat, rack and pillion pad.
But it will never be "cafed" or chopped up, that I'm 100% sure of.
-
Great find. Enjoy!
-AJ
-
:gotpics:
Congrats! Now let’s see it!
-
:gotpics:
Congrats! Now let’s see it!
Check reply 21.
-
$10K should get you a nice, well sorted Eldo. I’ve had two, and currently have a ‘71 Ambassador. Join the Loopframe (V700, Ambo, Eldo) group for some good info.
https://motoguzzi.groups.io/g/LoopFrames/topics
I agree with Cam3512...Best to spend a little more to get a nice, sorted example. This one seen at the recent Guzzi Rally in Datil, NM. :thumb: :bow: :cool: :boozing:
(https://i.ibb.co/rMBw1Yp/IMG-7244.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rMBw1Yp)
-
I agree with Cam3512...Best to spend a little more to get a nice, sorted example. This one seen at the recent Guzzi Rally in Datil, NM. :thumb: :bow: :cool: :boozing:
(https://i.ibb.co/rMBw1Yp/IMG-7244.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rMBw1Yp)
I'm believe the one I picked up is "nicely sorted". Curious, how much was the one you saw?
-
Brakes and handling are not as good as your old bmw,so be careful.Also I had a similar fairing on mine that caused a speed wobble at 85 mph.Pretty bike!
-
Brakes and handling are not as good as your old bmw,so be careful.Also I had a similar fairing on mine that caused a speed wobble at 85 mph.Pretty bike!
Yes, I experienced the front brake as I was backing down the ramp while getting out of the Uhaul - thank God I had shifted into gear, so could let the clutch out to assist. Otherwise, it was going to roll down on its own...
As for the fairing, I think it's a really cool period piece, but I've already pulled it off just to get a feel for the bike. And in the end, it may just get replaced by windshield.
-
Yes, I experienced the front.break as I was backing down the ramp while getting out of the Uhaul - thank God I had shifted into gear, so could let the clutch out to assist. Otherwise it was going to roll down on its own...
My '73 suffered from brakus absentenius when going backwards - even a slight downhill slope was a source of concern. According to Charlie Mullendore, that's common with loop 2LS front brakes. After he did his magic on my front brakes, along with a bunch of other stuff, my front brake will stop & hold the bike from rolling backwards on a slight to moderate slope, although I haven't tested it on a ramp yet.
-
'66 BMW R60/2 acts just the same on a slope. All of a sudden leading shoes become trailing shoes. Then you understand why the engineers use double leading shoes. OTOH a single cam system stops equally poorly in either direction of rotation.
-
Single-leading-shoe (rear brake) works fine going either direction. Twin-leading-shoe and four-leading-shoe don't work so well backing up.
-
Single-leading-shoe (rear brake) works fine going either direction. Twin-leading-shoe and four-leading-shoe don't work so well backing up.
Single leading shoes work OK (not fine) in either direction because one shoe is always leading and the other is always trailing.
Double leading shoes work poorly in reverse because in reverse both shoes become trailing.
Trailing shoe edges are pushed out of engagement by stopping torque. Leading shoe edges are pushed in to engagement by stopping torque.
I believe the outward force generated by contact friction is greatest at the leading edge and decreases toward the static anchor.
That's why engineers bothered with quad leading brake shoe setup for mechanical brake racing machines.
(https://i.ibb.co/Xpb63g6/p1259145132.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xpb63g6)
Thank goodness hydraulic disk brakes came along. All of a sudden the human hand can controllably apply enough force to lock a wheel and the mechanism is simple to maintain.
-
Eldos (or Loops in general) look perfect with the Wixom bags. Nice find, and nice, rare color combo!
I see it has the Triple-A footboard mod, let us know what you think of that when you ride it (although understandably you'll have no frame of reference). I have an old Ambo with those same footboards/controls but have never ridden it, and always wondered how well they worked.
Congrats! Despite what anyone might say, the Loops are some of the most trouble-free (meaning: simple) and enjoyable Guzzis around!
-
Eldos (or Loops in general) look perfect with the Wixom bags. Nice find, and nice, rare color combo!
I see it has the Triple-A footboard mod, let us know what you think of that when you ride it (although understandably you'll have no frame of reference). I have an old Ambo with those same footboards/controls but have never ridden it, and always wondered how well they worked.
Congrats! Despite what anyone might say, the Loops are some of the most trouble-free (meaning: simple) and enjoyable Guzzis around!
Right now there's rain in the forecast, so with that and the lack of registration, I haven't even taken it around the block. Hopefully, that will be next week and I can see how the footboards feel. This is my first bike with them, so it will be interesting.
As for color - I didn't know white was rare, but it was my preferred choice, so I'm glad it worked out.
-
I have Triple-A's, on a white Ambo. I like them, but I don't know any different to compare to something else. Enjoy the bike. Looks great!
-AJ