Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vecchio Lupo on August 22, 2023, 04:41:17 PM
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Well,...I can believe Im crabbing a frame again after less than 3 months since I did the flywheel in my Convert, but I just picked up this Cal III with a slipping clutch among other small issues. I have a clutch alignment tool and a flywheel holding tool as well as a clutch spline holding tool. I read that I need to make a second spline holding tool from one of the old clutch discs??
I have read the shop manual and have watched the one or two YouTube videos that didn't really help much, but Im ready to start. Please chime in with any words of wisdom or "Don't Forget" procedures, thanks. I have the friction plates, the pressure plate and intermediate...I did not buy a flywheel because Im hoping mine is just fine once I crack it open.
(https://i.ibb.co/MMCpDxG/IMG-4037.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MMCpDxG)
(https://i.ibb.co/CQF4j5g/IMG-4038.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CQF4j5g)
(https://i.ibb.co/g7wRs2D/IMG-4041.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g7wRs2D)
Wish me luck
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Well,...I can believe Im crabbing a frame again after less than 3 months since I did the flywheel in my Convert, but I just picked up this Cal III with a slipping clutch among other small issues. I have a clutch alignment tool and a flywheel holding tool as well as a clutch spline holding tool. I read that I need to make a second spline holding tool from one of the old clutch discs??
I have read the shop manual and have watched the one or two YouTube videos that didn't really help much, but Im ready to start. Please chime in with any words of wisdom or "Don't Forget" procedures, thanks. I have the friction plates, the pressure plate and intermediate...I did not buy a flywheel because Im hoping mine is just fine once I crack it open.
(https://i.ibb.co/MMCpDxG/IMG-4037.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MMCpDxG)
(https://i.ibb.co/CQF4j5g/IMG-4038.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CQF4j5g)
(https://i.ibb.co/g7wRs2D/IMG-4041.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g7wRs2D)
Wish me luck
You'd need the "second spline holding tool from one of the old clutch discs" if you're removing the clutch hub from the transmission.
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Boys,
I really need the collective brain cells here.....after opening up my clutch, I see that it s not worn out or down,...but oil soaked (see pics). This made me think rear main seal. After all the bits were off, I removed the flywheel expecting to see a shredded or at least soaking in oil rear main, it was pretty dry (see pic).
It kind of looks like the oil is coming from the pipe doo dad at the top right and going all over from there. As you can see I have an oil contaminated clutch so that must be addressed. What have you boys seen in your travels???
(https://i.ibb.co/HTnDJfz/IMG-4042.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HTnDJfz) (https://i.ibb.co/fMCxZzW/IMG-4043.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fMCxZzW) (https://i.ibb.co/zFctdDh/IMG-4044.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zFctdDh) (https://i.ibb.co/8r3T93m/IMG-4045.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8r3T93m) (https://i.ibb.co/X3DNwrt/IMG-4047.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X3DNwrt) (https://i.ibb.co/f8J8HhG/IMG-4048.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f8J8HhG) (https://i.ibb.co/X83q2rv/IMG-4050.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X83q2rv)
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That pipe is the crankcase breather pipe, there is a gasket. Most get trans oil so change that also, and seals on the rod.
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The rear of the engine looks pretty dry. At least not enough to get the clutch plates wet. But.....
The first pic look like oil is coming from the trans push rod tube. As in the push rod seals have gone bad. Or maybe also from the front trans seal or O rings and flowing up the clutch spline hub. Is the nut for the clutch input spline loose?
In the last pic, it looks like the breather hose has a bit of a leak. Could just be the clamp need to be tightened, or the hose replaced.
Since your in this deep. I would consider changing the rear main seal, breather tube gasket and sealing the cam plug with JB Weld.
Charlie should have advise on the push rod O ring conversion.
Good luck!!
Tom
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The rear of the engine looks pretty dry. At least not enough to get the clutch plates wet. But.....
The first pic look like oil is coming from the trans push rod tube. As in the push rod seals have gone bad. Or maybe also from the front trans seal or O rings and flowing up the clutch spline hub. Is the nut for the clutch input spline loose?
In the last pic, it looks like the breather hose has a bit of a leak. Could just be the clamp need to be tightened, or the hose replaced.
Since your in this deep. I would consider changing the rear main seal, breather tube gasket and sealing the cam plug with JB Weld.
Charlie should have advise on the push rod O ring conversion.
Good luck!!
Tom
It's not really a "conversion" as such - remove the rubber cones, replace with o-rings. I can supply the o-rings for the clutch pushrod, just need an address to send them to.
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gentlemen,
I thank you for the attention to detail and the great advice, experienced eyes are always a plus. After closer examination, I agree. the oil in question appears to be gear oil, and when I tilted the transmission oil poured out the rod tube area. I will order all appropriate seals and I need to learn about the O-ring substitution for the OEM seals. I will take a couple pics before I degrease and scrub everything. thank you all.
As the, at least 4th owner with almost no history, I was a little worried that a worn out clutch could mean a speedo replacement or a odometer flip, because 39k in 34 years is pretty low. Im actually glad to see thick but soaked clutch discs indication a true 39k miles.
Charlie , we met when I lived in Virginia several years ago, even though I was on a R100CS we talked Guzzi. My address is:
Joe Trippodo
8612 Woodland Walk
North Charleston, SC 29420
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There is a "one way" valve in the breather. At 60K miles mine was sticking. I think that contributed to excessive crankcase pressure.
Also the gasket supplied for the breather tube was cut in a shape that left one flange section sealed by less than a 1 mm cross section. It was a weak spot. I cut a more sensible gasket where the center hole matched the casting and the outer dimension exceeded the flange. I installed the gasket with sealing compound and used a torque wrench to get the fasteners to proper tension.
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fellas, if this is just too stupid and boring for words, just tell me and I'll stop with the play by play. As you can see from the close ups it most def appears to be all manner of leakage from the gearbox side of the house. After I removed the nut (which was way too easy and could have almost been done by hand) the seal itself was hard as a $10 hooker, I could only find 1 little collapsed O-ring and no seals whatsoever. That's probably my issue, don't ya think??
I will order every seal and gasket I can see. Here is my list, what am I missing?
(https://i.ibb.co/0cPwyxf/IMG-4051.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0cPwyxf)
(https://i.ibb.co/QYr1K0T/IMG-4052.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QYr1K0T)
(https://i.ibb.co/TYJvKKQ/IMG-4053.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TYJvKKQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/VpC8TMM/IMG-4054.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VpC8TMM)
(https://i.ibb.co/XZV3rV0/IMG-4055.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XZV3rV0)
Engine crankshaft oil seal
transmission input and output oil seals
O-rings (2 on the shaft and maybe 6 to replace the old style seal)
crankcase breather gasket
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For the O rings for the input shaft. Check the parts diagram for your year to be sure. There are 2 O rings under the splined hub. They should be 2 different sizes.
Hopefully this will fix your leak!!
Tom
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Id be doing everything on the back of the engine too while its apart. You know Murphy's Law.........
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Clutch hub o-rings:
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=117&products_id=1382
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=117&products_id=1385
I'll get the clutch pushrod o-rings into the mail tomorrow morning.
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Charlie’s o rings are key. You can gently push them in with a disposable pen body. I would check the thrust washer while in there.
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thanks about the o rings. Im not sure where the thrust washer is but I will consult my parts manual
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thanks about the o rings. Im not sure where the thrust washer is but I will consult my parts manual
Thrust bearing? Just behind the outer body - the piece that the clutch arm presses against.
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Thrust bearing? Just behind the outer body - the piece that the clutch arm presses against.
I think you are referring. to the rear of the gearbox, the cable actuated arm that pushes the rod?
BTW: it appears that my "Oil Spreading Washer" on the gearbox input shaft was just missing, which means someone has been in here before and didn't know or didn't care. Ive ordered a new one.
Im going to remove the rear crankshaft seal and the trans output shaft seal today in anticipation of parts deliveries.
As I stated in a previous thread, I have only purchased 3 new from the dealer bikes in my life. In 1990 I purchased a leftover 1989 Cal III fully Faired in all Burgundy from a dealer in Philadelphia PA and rode it home to New Orleans. I rode that bike from Key West, Fl to Monterey, Ca and as far North as Chicago, IL. went everywhere on that bike and was very pleased with it. Obviously I had to trade it in on a restored V7 Sport which I lost a couple years later in a divorce. I always regretted letting ithe Cal III go and whenever I found one it was too expensive or just sold. 33 years since purchase of the first one, I tripped over this slightly abused and neglected Girl in a neighboring state. I am returning to stock trim (I have sourced correct silencers, mirrors, windscreen, and Im fixing the broken sidecase mounts) It is my intention to make it to the Kentucky Guzzi Rally at the end of September, otherwise I'll just take my Convert to the Georgia campout that same weekend.....I hope to see you fellas there
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I have yet to see a washer under the input hub. I have only seen the 2 O rings under the input hub.
There is a tutorial for a LeMans IIRR that shows the washer. I would have to look that up again to be sure.
Tom
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me neither , but the parts catalog showed it with an active part number, so, $4 later I got one coming from Harpers. Maybe it won't go on right or whatever, you know how accurate Italian manuals can be.
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I think you are referring. to the rear of the gearbox, the cable actuated arm that pushes the rod?
BTW: it appears that my "Oil Spreading Washer" on the gearbox input shaft was just missing, which means someone has been in here before and didn't know or didn't care. Ive ordered a new one.
The throw-out bearing I was referring to is #9 in this illustration. Depending on how it's made, sometimes it has two thrust washers, other times only one.
(https://i.ibb.co/3k6g10r/Tonti-clutch.gif) (https://ibb.co/3k6g10r)
The "oil spreading washer" goes on the input shaft before it is inserted into the bearing, so it is inside the transmission, not outside.
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Thanks Charlie. Then yes I have seen the washer, I just figured it was a shim.
The diagram sure looks like it goes on the outside just under the input hub.
Tom
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(https://i.ibb.co/pJGS09j/Screenshot-20230825-143133-Adobe-Acrobat.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pJGS09j)
Assuming your transmission is similar to that of the '98 V11EV this illustration should be correct.
#7, The "oil spreader" washer goes in between the two "O" rings. This is the way I've been assembling transmissions and they do not leak oil into the clutch housing.
The inner "O" ring seals against the shaft and the inner face of the "oil spreader" washer. The outer "O" ring seals against the outer face of the "oil spreader" washer and the inboard chamfer of #3 (clutch gear).
The "oil spreader" washer clamps between the inner race of the input bearing and the hub of the "clutch gear".
This effectively keeps oil from migrating across the input shaft and through the splines into the clutch housing. It is an impenetrable maze.
It is a viable solution to sealing a splined coupling to a shaft running in an oil bath.
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(https://i.ibb.co/pJGS09j/Screenshot-20230825-143133-Adobe-Acrobat.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pJGS09j)
Assuming your transmission is similar to that of the '98 V11EV this illustration should be correct.
#7, The "oil spreader" washer goes in between the two "O" rings. This is the way I've been assembling transmissions and they do not leak oil into the clutch housing.
The inner "O" ring seals against the shaft and the inner face of the "oil spreader" washer. The outer "O" ring seals against the outer face of the "oil spreader" washer and the inboard chamfer of #3 (clutch gear).
The "oil spreader" washer clamps between the inner race of the input bearing and the hub of the "clutch gear".
This effectively keeps oil from migrating across the input shaft and through the splines into the clutch housing. It is an impenetrable maze.
It is a viable solution to sealing a splined coupling to a shaft running in an oil bath.
I have to disagree with you on the placement of the oil spreader washer. Even on never-before-worked-on-since-they-left-the-factory Guzzis, there is no washer on the clutch shaft forward of the bearing.
The thicker of the two o-rings goes into a groove and seals the shaft to the smooth bore of the clutch hub just aft of the fine splines. The thinner one goes up against the bearing and seals to the tapered recess of the clutch hub. That's the way it's designed and done from the factory.
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The way pictured in the manual works.
I've found several transmissions I've opened assembled as pictured in the book.
I've reassembled them as pictured in the book.
They have worked reliably and not leaked oil.
If your way is working equally well then continue along that path.
It very well might be a correct way adopted by the factory. I'm just going with what I've seen in practice and my manual.
Then again my shop manual shows a vacuum line connecting both intake manifolds to the open port on the fuel pressure regulator. Haven't tried that configuration yet.
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(https://i.ibb.co/pJGS09j/Screenshot-20230825-143133-Adobe-Acrobat.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pJGS09j)
Assuming your transmission is similar to that of the '98 V11EV this illustration should be correct.
#7, The "oil spreader" washer goes in between the two "O" rings. This is the way I've been assembling transmissions and they do not leak oil into the clutch housing.
The inner "O" ring seals against the shaft and the inner face of the "oil spreader" washer. The outer "O" ring seals against the outer face of the "oil spreader" washer and the inboard chamfer of #3 (clutch gear).
The "oil spreader" washer clamps between the inner race of the input bearing and the hub of the "clutch gear".
This effectively keeps oil from migrating across the input shaft and through the splines into the clutch housing. It is an impenetrable maze.
It is a viable solution to sealing a splined coupling to a shaft running in an oil bath.
EXACTLY my confusion. the parts diagram looks like the washer goes forward of the bearing, but some very experienced wrenches say otherwise. I don't know what Im going to do yet.
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I looked at the tutorial for I believe the LeMans box. This is hosted on Benders web site. The only washer on the clutch hub end of the input shaft is inside the box between the input shaft and the bearing, as Charlie wrote. For assembly, only the 2 O rings are discussed before installing the clutch hub.
I looked in my old Loop Chilton book, no image of the parts for a 5 speed, only the 4 speed.
Also, as per Charlies description of the design of the clutch hub, there should be no washer under the clutch hub. You would/should not get a seal on the tapered lip of the hub.
I have watched Mark at Guzzi Classics change the seals and O rings on a few bike. None have had a washer behind the hub.
With this said, if you have seen an untouched trans with the washer as shown in the parts list. Then I would install it as it came apart. Also, if it's working for you, I keep doing it.
Tom
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If you need a pic from a manual, look in the 1000G5/Sp service manual, page 70 pic #90. Shows the oil slinger on clutch shaft on inside of bearing space strait across from end gear on main shaft. The gear it slings oil on.
If you don't know by now, Charley is always correct!!
I knew I had seen this before, just didn't know which manual I have seen it in. I been changing notched clutch hubs since 84.
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If you need a pic from a manual, look in the 1000G5/Sp service manual, page 70 pic #90. Shows the oil slinger on clutch shaft on inside of bearing space strait across from end gear on main shaft. The gear it slings oil on.
If you don't know by now, Charley is always correct!!
I knew I had seen this before, just didn't know which manual I have seen it in. I been changing notched clutch hubs since 84.
:grin: :grin: No, not always. I'm human, I do make mistakes, but I do know my way around old Guzzis pretty well. :wink:
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Im sold, no washer....this is the kind of evaluation and examination of problems I come here for. I am going to be a Doner now. This has been invaluable to my piece of mind. I am not a true professional or even super knowledgeable . Ive been making mistakes on Guzzi since 1988 and still get it wrong . In the mid 90s I purchased a Moto Guzzi Franchise and managed to turn a small but viable independent English/European shop into a Moto Guzzi dealership that hemmoraged money for 5 years until I closed. I had very good mechanics and parts people but it was an emotional business that taught me to not be emotional. I pivoted into Lawn Mowers and small engines and now I love Moto Guzzi but Im just a well meaning hack.
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Boys,
I almost didn't post this last piece because I answered my own question, but, these threads are not just for the OP but others with the same issues. SO, after fitting my new rear crankshaft seal and about to bolt up the flywheel, I looked for the painted mark to line up with the arrow on the wheel, when I saw another mark ....see pic...a little confused, I ate up the arrow with the painted mark and saw that the second mark matched someone else's tool mark. I thought this flywheel had never been off, but I could be wrong. so I m posting this for future rank amateurs like me whoo just aren't sure.
(https://i.ibb.co/K53Tp0h/IMG-4067.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K53Tp0h)
(https://i.ibb.co/3MxhdmX/IMG-4069.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3MxhdmX)
(https://i.ibb.co/71yQD1b/IMG-4070.jpg) (https://ibb.co/71yQD1b)
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Boys,
I almost didn't post this last piece because I answered my own question, but, these threads are not just for the OP but others with the same issues. SO, after fitting my new rear crankshaft seal and about to bolt up the flywheel, I looked for the painted mark to line up with the arrow on the wheel, when I saw another mark ....see pic...a little confused, I ate up the arrow with the painted mark and saw that the second mark matched someone else's tool mark. I thought this flywheel had never been off, but I could be wrong. so I m posting this for future rank amateurs like me whoo just aren't sure.
(https://i.ibb.co/K53Tp0h/IMG-4067.jpg)
(https://ibb.co/K53Tp0h)
Is it the picture angle, or does the crankshaft look off center in the seal? Could be me...
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IF you don't know, the correct mark on crank will be were the crank pin is (part of crank where rods connect)
Where is your pin? Come strait back! It should line up, most likely the oldest one. Straitedge from center cross that mark to outside edge is where your arrow will be.
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I'm assuming photograph is of the old seal before replacement?
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it was just a shadow
(https://i.ibb.co/7tD4TJW/IMG-4072.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7tD4TJW)
html image uploader (https://imgbb.com/)
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I'm assuming photograph is of the old seal before replacement?
the drips on the seals edge are the lube I sprayed to help seat it. I didn't have a seal driver that big so I was very slow and careful with a wood dowel 1" and rubber mallet. MGcycle is out of stock for the correct seal pressing tool. Ive since wiped it and it doesn't look buggered up.
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It is hard to tell in the pics. Is the seal flush with the case or even barely under the case? If so good to go.
To elaborate on the paint mark on the crank for the flywheel. The paint mark IS "supposed" to be lined up with the crank shaft rod pin.
If you TDC your LH piston, I do not care where the valves are at or the timing at this point! Just TDC with a straw, screwdriver or the like in through the spark plug hole and rotate the engine to find LH TDC.
Find the arrow on your flywheel. Line up arrow with the cast nub/pointer on the LH top side of bell housing as shown in your shadow pic.
Now, the bolt holes in the flywheel and crank shaft should be aligned, or "maybe" a 1/4 bolt hole off due to visual error. Adjust slightly to line up the bolt holes. TDC is done for the crank and fly wheel.
Hope this helps,
Tom
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Tom H, yes the seal is slightly lower than flush. and thank you for the advice, I'll double check. I already put on the flywheel and the new clutch assy. , I will double check the positions
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Is it the picture angle, or does the crankshaft look off center in the seal? Could be me...
It appears to be a picture of a seal needing replacement alright.