Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: guzzisteve on September 15, 2023, 06:18:39 PM
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Done as a 750 at the China bike show, AND no one here mentioned it. Sidecar attached too.
Not to take you away from WG, look over at GT forum for more!!
(https://i.ibb.co/b66K5wM/China-V85.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b66K5wM)
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:popcorn:
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They may copy the art but they’ll never capture the soul of Moto Guzzi.
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Introductions or if you show recent posts.
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They may copy the art but they’ll never capture the soul of Moto Guzzi.
They are making the soul already w/engine parts bought by Piaggio.
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They may copy the art but they’ll never capture the soul of Moto Guzzi.
The Chinese engineers would probably look at capturing the soul of Moto Guzzi as a massive failure.
Often the whole point of copying a previous design is to improve upon it.
Now if they start outsourcing replacement parts and customer service to Piaggio.......... then we know the Italian infiltrators were successful. :evil:
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They are making the soul already w/engine parts bought by Piaggio.
So Piaggio is outsourcing the manufacturing of the Italian soul to the Chinese?
That explains why the last cannoli I got at an Italian restaurant tasted a lot like a fortune cookie......
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Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery but........no thanks.
inditx
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Same motor company that made the 750 bmw clone that was older copy than the Russian one.
https://changjiang-europe.com/index.php/en/history/
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Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery but........no thanks.
inditx
This is what I was thinking. Moto Guzzi nailed it with the V85- it is a good looking and very capable bike.
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There is no mention of it on the Chang Jiang home website.
Their parallel twin seems to have all the modern stuff on it though.
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I've done a bit of searching also. I haven't found any information that makes me think the bike is real.
Based on a few mentions I've seen on the internet, it looks like some photoshop pictures and someone's idea of spoofing people.
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They look like tubeless rims wounder if they would ft my 2020.....
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Look up the motor show if you think it's fake. Pic taken by a Guzzi owner in China that went to the show. Next years models.
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I wonder why they waste time money and effort copy a bike that sells in such small numbers?
The good news is I betting they'd have a much bigger dealer network??
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How many spokes are there in the front wheel of a current model V85 ?
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Luigi needs to sue.. unless he’s in on it
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In my mind, it ain't real until Luap buys one and gives us an Owner's Report.
After reading Luap's write up, Piaggio just might have Egg Roll on their faces! :wink:
Anyone know how to say "Wild Guzzi" in Mandarin?
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I wonder why they waste time money and effort copy a bike that sells in such small numbers?
The good news is I betting they'd have a much bigger dealer network??
Reverse engineering is dirt cheap. Disassemble and measure.
It'll be a hoot if a long time Guzzi fan buys one and loves it.
Based on what I have read here, sounds like the Piaggio customer service bar height will quite easy to step over.
The Moto Dragon lives!!!
:wink:
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I wonder why they waste time money and effort copy a bike that sells in such small numbers?
The good news is I betting they'd have a much bigger dealer network??
I see one is a clone of a KTM Duke.
It would be fascinating to talk to someone at that company and ask "How do you decide on which motorcycles you want to copy and produce?"
Perhaps the answer would be:
"We want to manufacture motorcycles that have a high level of customer satisfaction and enjoyment, that are produced by manufacturers who have a reputation for lousy treatment of their dealers and their customers! We will take market share away from the other OEM's by not treating our customers and our dealers poorly!!"
THAT, would be a great business plan!
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They look like tubeless rims wounder if they would ft my 2020.....
Just so you know the tubeless rims on the 2021-on V85TT are also manufactured in China by a Chinese company. Not sure about the 2020 tube type but I’d guess they are too.
My comment on the Chinese V85TT copy as a whole is that if creating the original isn’t valuable because direct copies come along, and if nobody is penalized and the copies sell, then nobody will create anything of value.
My own POV as a buyer is that I’d be embarrassed to ride a direct copy of any motorcycle, or to show the world that I’m willing to reward plagiarism with my money.
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Just so you know the tubeless rims on the 2021-on V85TT are also manufactured in China by a Chinese company. Not sure about the 2020 tube type but I’d guess they are too.
My comment on the Chinese V85TT copy as a whole is that if creating the original isn’t valuable because direct copies come along, and if nobody is penalized and the copies sell, then nobody will create anything of value.
My own POV as a buyer is that I’d be embarrassed to ride a direct copy of any motorcycle, or to show the world that I’m willing to reward plagiarism with my money.
I would like to hear more about your perspective. This is an excellent philosophical topic.
How does one determine if the motorcycle one would ride and buy, is produced by the original designer?
Or perhaps more accurately, how does one know what percentage of the machines they currently own and ride are true to the "original design intent?"
Design is an iterative process. You have probably heard the phrase "No point in redesigning the wheel."
As someone who has spent a couple decades working as a machine/tool designer, I can tell you with absolute certainty, designers copy and improve on other designer's designs all the time. It has been happening forever. That is how designs evolve.
Very few employers ever seek to hire a designer whose goal is to "re-invent the wheel." Almost always, the goal is a better mouse trap.
Would anyone buy & ride a Laverda SF750, or a Benelli 500 four or 750 six?
What if the Chinese clone bike is of equal or better quality, at an equal or better price, and supported by a manufacturer and dealer network that treats you equally or better than the original OEM and their original dealer network?
Obviously for all of us, the decision tipping points are subjective.
It would be interesting to hear from everyone, what would it take for each of us to go from "No way! No how!" on the Chinese Ducati, Chinese Moto Guzzi, or Chinese KTM to "Wow! That is a good machine, at a fair price, with as good or better support! I'm in!"
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GuzziTech has a reference to it, called a Defender750. https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/chinese-made-moto-guzzi.24846/#post-206355 (https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/chinese-made-moto-guzzi.24846/#post-206355)
Also, a discussion of it here: https://www.guzzisti.de/forum/topic/11977-v85-tt-china-kopie/#comment-97405 (https://www.guzzisti.de/forum/topic/11977-v85-tt-china-kopie/#comment-97405). Use the browser translate feature.
Wondering if Piaggio is licensing their motor/drive train to Changjiang?
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Looks (to my old eyes) a lot like a genuine v85tt attached to a genuine Chang Jiang sidecar
Ho hum, another third wheel to give all the disadvantages of a motorbike and all the disadvantages of a car
And absolutely NONE of the advantages of either
Some appear to see something else
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Looks (to my old eyes) a lot like a genuine v85tt attached to a genuine Chang Jiang sidecar
Ho hum, another third wheel to give all the disadvantages of a motorbike and all the disadvantages of a car
And absolutely NONE of the advantages of either
Some appear to see something else
Touche’
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Looks (to my old eyes) a lot like a genuine v85tt attached to a genuine Chang Jiang sidecar
Ho hum, another third wheel to give all the disadvantages of a motorbike and all the disadvantages of a car
And absolutely NONE of the advantages of either
Some appear to see something else
But piloting a hack is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on. Especially when the snow starts flying and an aggressive set of tars on the rig.
Also awesome for beer runs. Personal record was 7 cases of 16 ouncers loaded in a Velorex 562. The crew at the beer distributor was impressed.
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Looks (to my old eyes) a lot like a genuine v85tt attached to a genuine Chang Jiang sidecar
Ho hum, another third wheel to give all the disadvantages of a motorbike and all the disadvantages of a car
And absolutely NONE of the advantages of either
Some appear to see something else
I do.
Some things don't always HAVE to make sense to be the right thing to do at the right time.
There's also the wonderful history of hacks and racing :wink:
I ran a chair on a 883 Sportster for a couple years.
"The Ultimate Compromise"
Lower gas mileage, accelerated tire wear, weird handling and braking dynamics etc...
But I never regretted a moments time on it! Literally laughing in my helmet as I took the kids through the take out line at McD's. The reaction of a work mate as I was "Flying the Chair" with him in it. Any sidecar outfit is treated like the circuss coming to town, take your dog too, he'll love you for it! Lol
It's just another experience in motorcycling I'm glad to have been a part of.
YMMV
Ha,ha! I see Perrazzimx14 beat me to it !!
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Hopefully some of these online magazines will do some extensive comparison between the Original bikes and the Chinese clones.
Dear China,
I would like a KTM duke 690 clone with a carb instead of fuel injection.
Thanks in advance,
SRE
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But piloting a hack is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on. Especially when the snow starts flying and an aggressive set of tars on the rig.
Also awesome for beer runs. Personal record was 7 cases of 16 ouncers loaded in a Velorex 562. The crew at the beer distributor was impressed.
20 years ago I bought a HD sidecar rig so that my wife who was in a wheelchair could have a chance to ride with me again. When she weakened to the point where riding in the hack wasn't an option anymore I sold it. I was very surprised how much I missed having a sidecar after it was gone., which was totally unexpected as my only motivation for buying it was for my wife's enjoyment.
I knew that one day I would have another rig. They are just great fun. Nothing like it. One day when advanced age makes 2 wheels dicey I will happily transition to 100% sidecar. I love my Ural. A great bike.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J09s4rJP/IMG-2216-4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1VrmvZvq)
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20 years ago I bought a HD sidecar rig so that my wife who was in a wheelchair could have a chance to ride with me again. When she weakened to the point where riding in the hack wasn't an option anymore I sold it. I was very surprised how much I missed having a sidecar after it was gone., which was totally unexpected as my only motivation for buying it was for my wife's enjoyment.
I knew that one day I would have another rig. They are just great fun. Nothing like it. One day when advanced age makes 2 wheels dicey I will happily transition to 100% sidecar. I love my Ural. A great bike.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J09s4rJP/IMG-2216-4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1VrmvZvq)
Back in 2005 I bought a new Ural Patrol. I think back then they were about $10,500 so not to bad for a 2 wheel drive side car rig. Two things that I remember about it. First and very surprisingly, it had the nicest green paint job of any bike I've ever owned. The paint was as smooth as glass without a single panel having any orange peel. Can't say the same about any BMW I've ever owned. Second thing about the Ural was the amount of maintenance/repairs it needed. For every hour I spent riding it, I needed to work on it for an hour, and I'm not exaggerating. After about 2 years I sold it after riding it for 6,000 miles.
It was a interesting bike to own and got plenty of looks when I was out riding it, but I don't think I would own another one, especially not for what they are asking for a new one now, $20,000+.
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Back in 2005 I bought a new Ural Patrol. I think back then they were about $10,500 so not to bad for a 2 wheel drive side car rig. Two things that I remember about it. First and very surprisingly, it had the nicest green paint job of any bike I've ever owned. The paint was as smooth as glass without a single panel having any orange peel. Can't say the same about any BMW I've ever owned. Second thing about the Ural was the amount of maintenance/repairs it needed. For every hour I spent riding it, I needed to work on it for an hour, and I'm not exaggerating. After about 2 years I sold it after riding it for 6,000 miles.
It was a interesting bike to own and got plenty of looks when I was out riding it, but I don't think I would own another one, especially not for what they are asking for a new one now, $20,000+.
Yeah, I'm not convinced the Ural is worth the money in 2005 or 2023 dollars. If I was commissioning another rig I'd be going back to Claude Stanley with an Adv Bike and about an 2" thick pile of $100's.
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I don’t know what the perceived benefits are one way or another, but I just could not get used to telling someone I ride a Urinal.
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Yeah, I'm not convinced the Ural is worth the money in 2005 or 2023 dollars. If I was commissioning another rig I'd be going back to Claude Stanley with an Adv Bike and about an 2" thick pile of $100's.
In my opinion a new Ural is still a very good value in today's sidecar market.
A good way to save 25% or more on a late model Ural is to buy from someone who scared themselves witless and sells it off with only a couple hundred miles. It is not uncommon to find used Ural rigs sold by first time sidecar owners that are not mentally or physically prepared for the steep learning curve. I think most of us wondered what kind of death trap we got ourselves into during the first few miles. Luckily it gets better quickly if you give it a chance.
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I don’t know what the perceived benefits are one way or another, but I just could not get used to telling someone I ride a Urinal.
It's pronounced ooraall Huzo. :grin:
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In my opinion Ural is still a very good value in today's sidecar market.
A good way to save 25% or more on a late model Ural is to buy from someone who scared themselves witless and sells it off with only a couple hundred miles. It is not uncommon to find used Ural rigs sold by first time sidecar owners that are not mentally or physically prepared for the steep learning curve with a pitiful few miles. I think most of us wondered what kind of death trap we got ourselves into during the first few miles. Luckily it gets better quickly if you give it a chance.
When I picked up my rig Claude said you'll go through a very fast spell of love at 1st ride quickly followed by what did I get myself into. He said you'll have to push through what did I get myself into and if you do will be rewarded with now, I get it. It took several hundred miles and then it just clicked.
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When I picked up my rig Clause said you'll go through a very fast spell of love at 1st ride quickly followed by what did I get myself into. He said you'll have to push through what did I get myself into and if you do will be rewarded with now, I get it. It took several hundred miles and then it just clicked.
I put about 50 miles on a friend's Ural with a sidecar. Not sure what year, but new enough to have a disc front brake.
No problems, a bit non-motorcycle like dynamics. Luckily, the performance level of the machine did not encourage spirited riding. My significant memory of the bike and ride was the gearbox shifted like someone drained out all the oil, and replaced it with Crusher Run gravel and a little bit of water.
Another friend had an older model, genuine Soviet era! Mystery metal abounded on the machine. "Holy Cow Batman! That part is made out of magnetic aluminum!"
The rims having four less holes than the number of holes in the hub and the number of spokes was indicative of the build quality thruout the machine.
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For sure Soviet Civilian production, Ural Motorcycles and pretty much anything was poor quality at best.
Soviet military equipment production lines were another matter all together.
The level of sophistication could be lacking and final finish was not all that swell either.
More often than not the equipment worked acceptably.
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It will be interesting to learn if the Chinese company is "copying" the Moto Guzzi and the other machines, or have Piaggio and the other OEM licensed the Chinese company to make the clones.
Money talks. If demand is there, and you don't have the manufacturing capacity to meet more than the current level of demand, and/or the desire/capital to expand your manufacturing capacity for what might be a very temporary increase in demand, you might as well make some money letting other companies manufacture "your" products.
No financial risk, but some potential gain.
If you are already outsourcing some parts to these companies, why not let them make more?
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Some more images
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-mxX43Jg/0/2a81696f/M/i-mxX43Jg-M.jpg) (https://curtedwards.smugmug.com/Forum-Post/n-zvp7tH/i-mxX43Jg/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-5pd5qZt/0/07f0d060/M/i-5pd5qZt-M.jpg) (https://curtedwards.smugmug.com/Forum-Post/n-zvp7tH/i-5pd5qZt/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-gJ46c62/0/f596f0a8/M/i-gJ46c62-M.jpg) (https://curtedwards.smugmug.com/Forum-Post/n-zvp7tH/i-gJ46c62/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2K5T7tw/0/bb5122d7/M/i-2K5T7tw-M.jpg) (https://curtedwards.smugmug.com/Forum-Post/n-zvp7tH/i-2K5T7tw/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-BF4FHCg/0/54134d84/M/i-BF4FHCg-M.jpg) (https://curtedwards.smugmug.com/Forum-Post/n-zvp7tH/i-BF4FHCg/A)
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It would be fascinating to see parts lists of the Original bikes and the Cloned bikes broken down by each component, the manufacturing vendor who makes each component, and country of origin of each component.
There might not be as much difference between the Originals and the Clones as many of us think.
The bikes might be 50+% the same!
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Nothing gets made in china without full transparency. If Piaggio or GM or anyone else gets parts made in china in their own facility or by another party, all related information including blueprints, technology, method must be disclosed to the local authorities as part of the permitting process by government. There are no secrets held back, no proprietary rights, nothing. If they want to know what you’re doing, you cannot refuse to fulfill their requests completely and operate in their territory.
Then, if the local authorities choose to do so, they can allow another entity to make the exact same parts or machines use the same technology- whether or not they allow the original party to remain in operation.
If Piaggio is having any parts manufactured in China for that market, assembly elsewhere, whatever- China doesn’t have to steal or reverse engineer it. They already have all they need to know to make it.
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I do have one question.
Why is the spelling of the word “Chinese” in the title, deliberately mishandled ?
I’m not immune to such shenanigans myself, but I wondered at the motive.
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Nothing gets made in china without full transparency. If Piaggio or GM or anyone else gets parts made in china in their own facility or by another party, all related information including blueprints, technology, method must be disclosed to the local authorities as part of the permitting process by government. There are no secrets held back, no proprietary rights, nothing. If they want to know what you’re doing, you cannot refuse to fulfill their requests completely and operate in their territory.
Then, if the local authorities choose to do so, they can allow another entity to make the exact same parts or machines use the same technology- whether or not they allow the original party to remain in operation.
If Piaggio is having any parts manufactured in China for that market, assembly elsewhere, whatever- China doesn’t have to steal or reverse engineer it. They already have all they need to know to make it.
I wondered if when a company contracts a Chinese vendor to produce a part, if the contracting company lost all exclusive rights to that part. IE: If a Chinese company makes swingarms for a KTM 690 Duke, does that company automatically have the right to make as many of those swingarms as they want for whatever purpose they want?
If Moto Guzzi contracts a vendor to build 3,000 engines a year, but the contracted vendor has the capacity to build 10,000 of those engines a year, well, in order to pay for the tooling as quickly as possible, they will build as many as they think they can sell to anyone who wants to buy, not just Moto Guzzi.
Sound economics.
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May be manufactured under an adjusted license. BMW Funduro/Aprilia Pegaso. Honda Pilot/Isuzu. eg. Not copies but made by the same companies. :boozing: :boozing:
Let's not forget Harley Davidson/Rikuo type 97 kickstarting the Japanese motorcycle industry pre-WWII. :boozing: :boozing: It may not be a copy but a badged bike under license.
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I wondered if when a company contracts a Chinese vendor to produce a part, if the contracting company lost all exclusive rights to that part. IE: If a Chinese company makes swingarms for a KTM 690 Duke, does that company automatically have the right to make as many of those swingarms as they want for whatever purpose they want?
If Moto Guzzi contracts a vendor to build 3,000 engines a year, but the contracted vendor has the capacity to build 10,000 of those engines a year, well, in order to pay for the tooling as quickly as possible, they will build as many as they think they can sell to anyone who wants to buy, not just Moto Guzzi.
Sound economics.
A retired engineer friend who was a student of mine explained the process to me. He said when they wanted to either build a facility or contract items to be manufactured in China, which they did numerous times over multiple years, they had to provide all information about all processes, products and designs at the request of the permitting govt office. He told me he personally witnessed a new facility being purpose-built to produce items for non-china markets, with an identical facility built via the state on adjacent property at the same time by the same contractors. If you run afoul with govt officials for whatever reason, they could shut you down and move all the trained workers & production next door and field offer to fill the same contracts that you no longer could using same exact workers, materials, products, schedule and possibly at a lower cost. Working like that led him to take a layoff for early retirement in his field and change his life direction.
The thing about licensing- They could license their product to be built and sold in China. Or, the govt officials may simply allow those same items to be produced and marketed without them… make your choice. If any claims are litigated in china, guess who’s gonna win? So it’s hardly a win-win situation or a good economic model for anyone else. .
Many (most?) people don’t think it’s a big deal until their original, copyrighted invention or product is copied and all the time, effort & $$ it took to make it happen goes down the drain. It’s only a victimless crime scenario until it happens to you.
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I do have one question.
Why is the spelling of the word “Chinese” in the title, deliberately mishandled ?
I’m not immune to such shenanigans myself, but I wondered at the motive.
I have 2 Chinese nieces, my sister worked for Motorola & went there often. It's more political cuz I dislike the government there.
Sorry can't discuss anything BUT I can delete the whole thing so it doesn't go that way.
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Probably not necessary to do that, but you don’t seem surprised that somebody asked… :wink:
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My friend Huzo, yes, there was intent.
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I'd put money this bike is never sold in the US, probably not outside of Asia. So doesn't matter to me in the least.
-AJ
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:thumb:
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I'd put money this bike is never sold in the US, probably not outside of Asia. So doesn't matter to me in the least.
-AJ
Yeah.
Hyundai, Toyota and Honda never took off.
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South Korean and Japanese. Totally different govt's
Paul B
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A retired engineer friend who was a student of mine explained the process to me. He said when they wanted to either build a facility or contract items to be manufactured in China, which they did numerous times over multiple years, they had to provide all information about all processes, products and designs at the request of the permitting govt office. He told me he personally witnessed a new facility being purpose-built to produce items for non-china markets, with an identical facility built via the state on adjacent property at the same time by the same contractors. If you run afoul with govt officials for whatever reason, they could shut you down and move all the trained workers & production next door and field offer to fill the same contracts that you no longer could using same exact workers, materials, products, schedule and possibly at a lower cost. Working like that led him to take a layoff for early retirement in his field and change his life direction.
The thing about licensing- They could license their product to be built and sold in China. Or, the govt officials may simply allow those same items to be produced and marketed without them… make your choice. If any claims are litigated in china, guess who’s gonna win? So it’s hardly a win-win situation or a good economic model for anyone else. .
Many (most?) people don’t think it’s a big deal until their original, copyrighted invention or product is copied and all the time, effort & $$ it took to make it happen goes down the drain. It’s only a victimless crime scenario until it happens to you.
I suspected as much. That was a great explanation. Thank you.
Nothing new under the sun.
Reverse engineering is very economical. It was rampant in the early days of radios, computers, automobiles, televisions, farm tractors, bicycles, etc.
It makes the non-Chinese OEM's who enter into these joint manufacturing agreements sound like a person who willfully agrees to marry someone with a proven history of spouse abuse, and then signs a pre-nup that they won't have a problem with getting abused in the future.
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Just so you know the tubeless rims on the 2021-on V85TT are also manufactured in China by a Chinese company. Not sure about the 2020 tube type but I’d guess they are too.
My comment on the Chinese V85TT copy as a whole is that if creating the original isn’t valuable because direct copies come along, and if nobody is penalized and the copies sell, then nobody will create anything of value.
My own POV as a buyer is that I’d be embarrassed to ride a direct copy of any motorcycle, or to show the world that I’m willing to reward plagiarism with my money.
Well said and agree completely......... ....... It appears to be the norm not the exception in this new world.
Ciao
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Just so you know the tubeless rims on the 2021-on V85TT are also manufactured in China by a Chinese company. Not sure about the 2020 tube type but I’d guess they are too.
My comment on the Chinese V85TT copy as a whole is that if creating the original isn’t valuable because direct copies come along, and if nobody is penalized and the copies sell, then nobody will create anything of value.
My own POV as a buyer is that I’d be embarrassed to ride a direct copy of any motorcycle, or to show the world that I’m willing to reward plagiarism with my money.
This seems "almost" self evident.
It would be interesting to ask the OEM's Board of Directors: "Why are you entering into business partnerships when you know ahead of time that this is going to happen? Is it short term financial gain for you or stock holders? Is there something about the long term financial health of your company that the buyers of your product should know about?"
Could it be like an elderly sports star or celebrity who knows their days are numbered, so they view coaching their younger replacements as good for the industry?
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So are they being sold or just testing the water ?
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2024 model, not on the Euro importers website yet. It's from the largest bike show on earth. Read the beginning of post.
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German article with much more images:
https://www.motorradonline.de/enduro/changjiang-v-750-deffender-gespann-guzzi/
(https://img1.motorradonline.de/Changjiang-V-750-Deffender-Defender-Gespann-Seitenwagen-Beiwagen-V-Twin-V2-Moto-Guzzi-Kopie-China-09-2023--169Gallery-c7c19c16-2037330.jpg)
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It's pronounced ooraall Huzo. :grin:
So it's an Oooranaall. I can live with that.... :rolleyes: :grin:
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It wasn't all that long ago that Chinese machinery was looked on as being "cheap rubbish". A few years back I re-engined a lawnmower with a 5hp Loncin. The "lawn :rolleyes:" it is used on is pretty rugged. This engine really is a nice piece of kit, and my brother who definitely was not in favour of it but eventually acquiesced has changed his tune completely, so much so that when his newer Briggs packs up it will be a Loncin that replaces it.
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I was giving all this some thought about Guzzi having parts made in China.
Let's just say I walk into a Guzzi dealer. I like a bike they have. So I do my research on it. I find that 75-100% parts are made in china and assembled in China. This bike will cost $10,000 from Guzzi.
So while I'm doing my research, I find the exact same bike with a China brand on it for $6,000.
So which would I buy. The Guzzi one at a higher price because I want to support Guzzi. Or get the same bike for less since Guzzi is having them made in China.
I would prefer to buy the Guzzi made in Italy, not China. But since they are coming out of the same factory in China. Money does matter.
If it is true as written here that if you have a item and have it made in China, you give up all rights to that item. They can make and sell them as they wish.
Then maybe Companies should not have their parts or complete product made in China.
Tom
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German article with much more images:
https://www.motorradonline.de/enduro/changjiang-v-750-deffender-gespann-guzzi/
(https://img1.motorradonline.de/Changjiang-V-750-Deffender-Defender-Gespann-Seitenwagen-Beiwagen-V-Twin-V2-Moto-Guzzi-Kopie-China-09-2023--169Gallery-c7c19c16-2037330.jpg)
Thanks for that, the plot thickens, Piaggio will announce soon if it is collaboration under licence, like ktm 790 parallel twins, the “copies” are simply the old model under license. These possibly v7/3 motors ?
Shame about the bloody chair, gets in the way of photos, text says they’re using a 5 speed but I can’t see if it is the classic Tonti designed case and box. Could be a new life of parts if it is. Even better if it marries up to late model 2 UJ drive shaft.
Definitely a civilian model though, sidecar wheel is not driven, real chair men have to put up with new old boxers for a while longer it seems. Although the wartime Zundapp KS750 was actually a v twin !
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I do know it's been 5 yrs that they been making parts for Guzzi internal engine parts.
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I was giving all this some thought about Guzzi having parts made in China.
Let's just say I walk into a Guzzi dealer. I like a bike they have. So I do my research on it. I find that 75-100% parts are made in china and assembled in China. This bike will cost $10,000 from Guzzi.
So while I'm doing my research, I find the exact same bike with a China brand on it for $6,000.
So which would I buy. The Guzzi one at a higher price because I want to support Guzzi. Or get the same bike for less since Guzzi is having them made in China.
I would prefer to buy the Guzzi made in Italy, not China. But since they are coming out of the same factory in China. Money does matter.
If it is true as written here that if you have a item and have it made in China, you give up all rights to that item. They can make and sell them as they wish.
Then maybe Companies should not have their parts or complete product made in China.
Tom
THERE OUGHTA BE A LAW!!!!
If food producers have to list the amount of protein, carbs, fat, and sugar in their products, then ALL manufacturers should have to list part content by nation of manufacture.
That might stop a lot of posturing when potential buyers realize there may or may not be much difference between the supposedly Italian, German, Austrian, English, Indian, American, Japanese, etc. __________ manufacturers and the cloned machines.
If the genuine article is 40% Chinese, and the Chinese clone is 80%, then a lot of posturers will have Egg Fu Yung on their faces!
And how about some shelf life/expiration dates while we are at it.......
Back to the philosophical discussion. What percentage of non-OEM manufactured parts would be the magic number that would cause you to walk away?
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What percentage of non-OEM manufactured parts would be the magic number that would cause you to walk away?
No particular percentage because that’s not the issue with plagiarism. The issue is creation and ownership of the design, not the manufacturing of parts. If Piaggio can get parts made cheaply overseas, to their design or spec, in a reasonably free and open market, that’s a good thing that keeps people in both Italy and overseas employed doing what they can do best. However in that case Piaggio makes the profit from selling the design it paid to develop. In the plagiarism case, somebody else gets the profit from selling Piaggio’s design.
If the company making a direct copy cat design pays a negotiated licensing fee, that evens it up but obviously Chinese industry is renowned for copying without paying. I doubt they have an agreement with Piaggio here, but that remains to be seen. I also suspect they will sell the bike only in the protected Chinese market to preclude potential legal issues, but that could make them plenty of money selling somebody else’s design to relatively unsophisticated customers who don’t greatly appreciate either the plagiarism issue or Moto Guzzi.
Interesting BTW that the valve covers are emblazoned with the FiTech emblem. That is a US company that does EFI development for V8s and sells parts. It’s certainly harder to copy Piaggio’s EFI than the rest of the bike given the software involved.
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It wasn't all that long ago that Chinese machinery was looked on as being "cheap rubbish". A few years back I re-engined a lawnmower with a 5hp Loncin. The "lawn :rolleyes:" it is used on is pretty rugged. This engine really is a nice piece of kit, and my brother who definitely was not in favour of it but eventually acquiesced has changed his tune completely, so much so that when his newer Briggs packs up it will be a Loncin that replaces it.
Im a tech in a Toro dealer, and the Toro branded engines are made by Loncin. We have FAR less issues with these then any of the other big brand engines. I would take them over a Briggs, or Kohler any day, and it would be a tough decision compared with a Kawi.
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No particular percentage because that’s not the issue with plagiarism
Interesting BTW that the valve covers are emblazoned with the FiTech emblem. That is a US company that does EFI development for V8s and sells parts. It’s certainly harder to copy Piaggio’s EFI than the rest of the bike given the software involved.
From the net, take it as you found it
Fi Tech involved in engine tuning
Fi Tech logos can be seen on the engine casing, and this company, which specializes in fuel injection hardware and software, was allegedly involved in the development and tuning of the 750 for Changjiang. Fi Tech is part of the Chinese company Dongguan Transmission and Fuel Injection Technology Co., Ltd., with a branch and technicians in California. Against this background, an adjustment to Californian and European emissions limits seems even more possible. The same applies to the European level driving license limit (48 HP/35 kW).
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I do know it's been 5 yrs that they been making parts for Guzzi internal engine parts.
But the 5 speed Tonti SB gearbox was last offered in 2014?
Could’ve been made in RoC then of course, they don’t advertise such things
Nothing wrong with 5 speed box imho, not sure who needed 6
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No particular percentage because that’s not the issue with plagiarism. The issue is creation and ownership of the design, not the manufacturing of parts. If Piaggio can get parts made cheaply overseas, to their design or spec, in a reasonably free and open market, that’s a good thing that keeps people in both Italy and overseas employed doing what they can do best. However in that case Piaggio makes the profit from selling the design it paid to develop. In the plagiarism case, somebody else gets the profit from selling Piaggio’s design.
If the company making a direct copy cat design pays a negotiated licensing fee, that evens it up but obviously Chinese industry is renowned for copying without paying. I doubt they have an agreement with Piaggio here, but that remains to be seen. I also suspect they will sell the bike only in the protected Chinese market to preclude potential legal issues, but that could make them plenty of money selling somebody else’s design to relatively unsophisticated customers who don’t greatly appreciate either the plagiarism issue or Moto Guzzi.
Interesting BTW that the valve covers are emblazoned with the FiTech emblem. That is a US company that does EFI development for V8s and sells parts. It’s certainly harder to copy Piaggio’s EFI than the rest of the bike given the software involved.
Agreed. Sounds like we really don't know what is going on behind the scenes, or how "Italian" "German" "Austrian" the "Italian" "German" "Austrian" bikes really are.
Full disclosure would be very interesting. How many would be angry at the Chinese? How many would feel like the "Italian" "German" "Austrian" manufacturers sold them out?
Similar to one day you find out your spouse is cheating on you. Are you more angry at your spouse or the person they are cheating on you with?
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Same motor company that made the 750 bmw clone that was older copy than the Russian one.
https://changjiang-europe.com/index.php/en/history/
But in those cases, they were actual deals between the countries to sell the designs. BMW sold the R71 design to Russia before all heck broke loose. Russia gave the design to China.
Also—China isn’t known for copying designs to improve upon them as most of us know. As a general point, their manufacturing doesn’t often lead to innovation or better quality, but simply price reduction due to lower wages. There was an episode of the popular creative design podcast called 99% Invisible years ago that dove into the country’s fascination with copying—they mentioned there are many replicas of famous Western design like the Eiffel Tower, etc.
To so blatantly copy a niche brand with a unique style is pretty offensive.
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I am told that you can use Honda parts in knock-off stationary engines, and vice versa.
Never tried it myself.
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I am told that you can use Honda parts in knock-off stationary engines, and vice versa.
Never tried it myself.
Can’t verify that but can attest that the local Honda dealership would only supply Honda parts for a bike if we supplied with the VIN.
A few years ago, We were working on a Chinese knock-off that belonged to a customer and inquired for a few engine parts. The dealership that we called required a Honda VIN. We didn’t have one so they said they couldn’t help us. Whether it is a local or corporate policy, I don’t know. But it stopped us from fixing that bike with Honda parts from that dealership..
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Don’t know the V85…but why is there a ujoint in a straight shaft?
I’ve never machined, blueprinted or forged anything, but does that make sense?
(https://i.ibb.co/PNSRY2F/IMG-0530.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PNSRY2F)
Is there a second uj in the engine case?
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Don’t know the V85…but why is there a ujoint in a straight shaft?
I’ve never machined, blueprinted or forged anything, but does that make sense?
(https://i.ibb.co/PNSRY2F/IMG-0530.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PNSRY2F)
Is there a second uj in the engine case?
One simple word, suspension
Time will tell but latest looks to me best system of final drive used by Guzzi ever
Carcano’s 66 was good, Tonti’s 77 SB not bad, take or leave yer spineys and carcs, I like the v85 version
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Don’t know the V85…but why is there a ujoint in a straight shaft?
I’ve never machined, blueprinted or forged anything, but does that make sense?
(https://i.ibb.co/PNSRY2F/IMG-0530.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PNSRY2F)
Is there a second uj in the engine case?
All the new Guzzis have double UJs now.
The V9 and V85TT had one from the start, and the V7 adopted it in the 850 update.
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Can’t verify that but can attest that the local Honda dealership would only supply Honda parts for a bike if we supplied with the VIN.
A few years ago, We were working on a Chinese knock-off that belonged to a customer and inquired for a few engine parts. The dealership that we called required a Honda VIN. We didn’t have one so they said they couldn’t help us. Whether it is a local or corporate policy, I don’t know. But it stopped us from fixing that bike with Honda parts from that dealership..
Im sure its just the way the parts catalog is laid out. There are so many variations of parts that that is the best way to look them up. The problem lays in finding what part will fit that other engine. It can be done, and im sure a good parts guy with experience can do it, but whos going to eat the part on a guess that went wrong?
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Im sure its just the way the parts catalog is laid out. There are so many variations of parts that that is the best way to look them up. The problem lays in finding what part will fit that other engine. It can be done, and im sure a good parts guy with experience can do it, but whos going to eat the part on a guess that went wrong?
The parts man specifically told me they would not sell me parts to service this Chinese knock-off of a Honda Rebel 250 engine or any other Chinese knock-off without a Honda VIN. Iirc, I believe we eventually found the relevant Honda part number and still could not get this dealer to sell us that specific part without a VIN to attach to the account/order. He told me that having a Honda VIN magically materialize for that parts request after we had admitted it was not for a Honda wouldn’t work either. As a company policy, they were not going to knowingly provide support for the knock-off bikes. We ran into similar issues trying to service an Agra Cat 4 wheeler, not to be confused with the Arctic Cat 4 wheeler that it “emulated.” Both machines left like they came to us, for lack of parts availability.
Whether the genuine parts would have fixed the china versions, we had our doubts. Running manufacturing changes in the cheap/disposable Chinese recreational vehicles, from scooters to early hyosung larger displacement 2 & 4-wheelers, meant that nearly everything was batch produced. Once a specific part changed, it was NLA unless you harvested it from another bike in that same production batch. For example, If you ordered a container of 20-40 scooters, they may represent a single batch or 2-3 batches. The area distributor would reserve some machines to be his new parts inventory, but there was no guarantee that the piece he took from bike a for bike b would fit. Everything was disposable. Lifan machines seem to be better, but that’s for someone else to deal with and verify.
We came to think that the running changes had more to do with a variety of small suppliers filling orders for a similar variety of small manufacturing facilities. At the end, they badged and added VINs so all of these disparate machines became the same superficial model. As a result, they’re all disposable as soon as something more significant than a cable or a brake pad dies. We didn’t like or solicit working on them, but had a lot of people needing help. 99% weren’t riding those machines as a preferred life situation. Most of the time, we could do little to help them.
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The parts man specifically told me they would not sell me parts to service this Chinese knock-off of a Honda Rebel 250 engine or any other Chinese knock-off without a Honda VIN. Iirc, I believe we eventually found the relevant Honda part number and still could not get this dealer to sell us that specific part without a VIN to attach to the account/order. He told me that having a Honda VIN magically materialize for that parts request after we had admitted it was not for a Honda wouldn’t work either. As a company policy, they were not going to knowingly provide support for the knock-off bikes. We ran into similar issues trying to service an Agra Cat 4 wheeler, not to be confused with the Arctic Cat 4 wheeler that it “emulated.” Both machines left like they came to us, for lack of parts availability.
Whether the genuine parts would have fixed the china versions, we had our doubts. Running manufacturing changes in the cheap/disposable Chinese recreational vehicles, from scooters to early hyosung larger displacement 2 & 4-wheelers, meant that nearly everything was batch produced. Once a specific part changed, it was NLA unless you harvested it from another bike in that same production batch. For example, If you ordered a container of 20-40 scooters, they may represent a single batch or 2-3 batches. The area distributor would reserve some machines to be his new parts inventory, but there was no guarantee that the piece he took from bike a for bike b would fit. Everything was disposable. Lifan machines seem to be better, but that’s for someone else to deal with and verify.
We came to think that the running changes had more to do with a variety of small suppliers filling orders for a similar variety of small manufacturing facilities. At the end, they badged and added VINs so all of these disparate machines became the same superficial model. As a result, they’re all disposable as soon as something more significant than a cable or a brake pad dies. We didn’t like or solicit working on them, but had a lot of people needing help. 99% weren’t riding those machines as a preferred life situation. Most of the time, we could do little to help them.
Could you just order parts online and skip the dealer drama. I mean it's not like they have the parts in stock and would have to order them the same as you??
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Could you just order parts online and skip the dealer drama. I mean it's not like they have the parts in stock and would have to order them the same as you??
Probably could have, but not my shop and not how he typically ordered parts. This was at least a decade ago, in a old shop that still had no internet or computer. 99% of Orders came from Tucker Rocky, V-Twin, Dixie and 1-2 other sources via regular in-person salesman route visit or telephone, all done COD delivery. Just old habits. We picked up items from local HD or other dealerships when needed. The decades-old Honda dealership in town had closed and this new multi-brand shop had a much different perspective re working with us.
If the job had been for a real paying customer vs a broke dude that needed help, it may have been $$$worthwhile to press the matter to resolution. We avoided working on that Chinese crap for a reason..
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In my limited experience the knockoffs do everything possible to look exactly like the name brand. But, the parts are not interchangeable so when anything breaks it's junk.
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A retired engineer friend who was a student of mine explained the process to me. He said when they wanted to either build a facility or contract items to be manufactured in China, which they did numerous times over multiple years, they had to provide all information about all processes, products and designs at the request of the permitting govt office. He told me he personally witnessed a new facility being purpose-built to produce items for non-china markets, with an identical facility built via the state on adjacent property at the same time by the same contractors. If you run afoul with govt officials for whatever reason, they could shut you down and move all the trained workers & production next door and field offer to fill the same contracts that you no longer could using same exact workers, materials, products, schedule and possibly at a lower cost. Working like that led him to take a layoff for early retirement in his field and change his life direction.
The thing about licensing- They could license their product to be built and sold in China. Or, the govt officials may simply allow those same items to be produced and marketed without them… make your choice. If any claims are litigated in china, guess who’s gonna win? So it’s hardly a win-win situation or a good economic model for anyone else. .
Many (most?) people don’t think it’s a big deal until their original, copyrighted invention or product is copied and all the time, effort & $$ it took to make it happen goes down the drain. It’s only a victimless crime scenario until it happens to you.
Well said.......... And here lies the problem with the general population including so called leaders who have real issues of not being able to use that squishy thing between their ears and imagine what happens next. :sad:
Its just sad.
Ciao