Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bigbikerrick on October 13, 2023, 01:59:03 PM
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Hello Folks, after making my rear wheel tubeless, by sealing up the spoke holes, and putting my convert completely back together, saddlebags on, ready to lower from the lift, I stand back to admire my work, and realize, Oh crap, I mounted my tire in the backwards direction, according to the arrow on the sidewall. I have run tires meant for the rear on the front of sidecar rigs and trikes, running in a backwards direction without a problem, so I dont think it will make a huge difference. I am feeling kinda lazy today to take everything off again, and remount/ balance the tire. What difference ,if any would it make running the rear tire this way? Opinions?
Thanks
Rick
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Do you run hard, if not ride it
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:popcorn: Always wondered........... ..............
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I dont ride the bike real hard. Mostly 2 lane back roads, with the occasional jaunt on the freeway, always solo. I think the direction mostly has to do with the grooving, and water dispersion. The tire is a Shinko 712, That was on the rear of our RZ 350 for a couple of hundred miles, running in the proper direction, if that makes any difference.
Rick.
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Hi Big, 10-13-23
I don't know exactly the tread pattern on the tire, but most treads are patterned to push water to the outside and away from the wheel. This keeps the center tread in contact with the road. If they are mounted backwards, they tend to pull water into the center of the wheel. That could be a problem on wet roads. Just say'un.
Be well, stay well,
DougG
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For me it would depend on the tread pattern. Rain is one factor. Forces on the tire from the road another. Especially when leaned over.
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I would hesitate if it was the front,I doubt you will even notice anything from the rear.
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Forces on the tire from the road another. Especially when leaned over.
How are the forces different on the tyre when leaned over ?
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Does it rain at all in AZ when you are riding? I thought most of the tires were directional mostly for rain and braking forces. Unless you are doing track days and a lot of rain I would just ride. If it feels off you can change it back.
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If it didn't matter the manufacturer wouldn't bother marking tires for both positions and rotation.
So you have decided to become a test pilot? Feeling "kind of lazy today" to correct an assembly mistake that might lower your odds of riding a safe journey? Feeling lucky?
You made a mistake that might effect your safety. (I've done exactly the same thing and now mark rims with a marker when mounting tires to make that mistake less likely.)
Don't come to a group who aren't tire engineers looking for them to sanction perpetuating your error. Step back. Take a deep breath. Say OOPS - S#IT! Then correct your error and do the job to the best of your ability. You will feel better knowing it is as correct as you can make it BEFORE you ride.
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I would not be surprised if there were reinforcements inside the carcass design, to absorb torque loads under acceleration.
Reversing the tyre would render these worthless.
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This is very humorous!
Rain riding in Az.
Hi torque, high speed on a convert just doesn't mesh.
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Well, I took the Convert out for a test ride,and the rear tire felt great! I think that having a tire with a nice round profile,instead of the worn flat tire that was previously on there, made it feel much better. The bike would drop into corners real easy, and much better lean angles. I have a day ride scheduled with some friends tomorrow AM, so I plan to take the Convert. Next time I need to remove the wheel for any reason, I think I will flip the tire over.
I run a michelin pilot activ on the front of my Goldwing trike, in the backwards direction, with a tire meant for a bikes rear. It really helps in that application, but I thik its mostly due to the rear tire having a stiffer sidewall.
Vagrant knows us Arizona Guzzisti are not "rain riders"..... we are desert rats! :wink:
Rick D.
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This is very humorous!
Rain riding in Az.
Hi torque, high speed on a convert just doesn't mesh.
I was referring to torque, not velocity.
Also, that tyre was manufactured to be suitable for bikes that actually produce torque.
Not every bike is a Guzzi, someone might mount one on an Aprilia Tuono.
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Pretty much any modern tire mounted backwards will perform better than whatever came oem on the bike back in the day! Just sayin it like I sees it...water dispersion grooves and dual compounds didn't exist back then.
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Don't need rain to hydroplane, just a puddle.
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Short answer.
How did the manufacturing company design the tire to be mounted and ran?
Personally I would abide by that standard.
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Short answer.
How did the manufacturing company design the tire to be mounted and ran?
Personally I would abide by that standard.
Not bashing anyone's opinions, but quite often manufacturers standards are there to protect the manufacturer and are inconvenient to the consumer.
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I was going to keep my dog out of this fight. But......
Some tires can be used as front or rear. Most, if not all have two rotation arrows, specifying front or back.
You could leave your tire mounted backwards. You could also risk an issue with the plys coming apart due to the wrong rotation. This "could" cause the tire to fail.
Your choice,
Tom
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It used to be that front tires and rear tires were designed differently. The front tire is stressed when braking. The rear tire is stressed during braking, and acceleration. Then there's the tread design/direction.
I've had more than a couple of bikes come in for new tires, and discovered that their tires had been mounted in the wrong direction. Of course, the owners didn't know.
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If it's your front tire it'll make your odometer turn backwards.
-AJ
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Down south, this situation is covered by the phrase “hey y’all- watch this!”…….
Having accidentally done this a few times over the years on customers’ bikes up at the shop, it was never an option to leave it as is and hope all goes ok. Yes, some worn-out tires I changed had been on the bike the wrong way for a long time with no obvious failure. Riding with no helmet is also pretty safe until something goes wrong.
I believe the arrows are there for a legitimate safety reason, not as a branding or premium upgrade icon to enhance the value & profit potential of the tire. If they didn’t matter, they wouldn’t be there. I would bite the bullet and reverse the tire. Ride safe.
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If it didn't matter the manufacturer wouldn't bother marking tires for both positions and rotation.
So you have decided to become a test pilot? Feeling "kind of lazy today" to correct an assembly mistake that might lower your odds of riding a safe journey? Feeling lucky?
You made a mistake that might effect your safety. (I've done exactly the same thing and now mark rims with a marker when mounting tires to make that mistake less likely.)
Don't come to a group who aren't tire engineers looking for them to sanction perpetuating your error. Step back. Take a deep breath. Say OOPS - S#IT! Then correct your error and do the job to the best of your ability. You will feel better knowing it is as correct as you can make it BEFORE you ride.
I like your suggestion of: stepping back, taking deep breath.. and saying "Oh Sh%#T" :thumb:
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Seriously?
I can't believe the subject of rain siping for a bike in Arizona is even thought about here.
And torque? How much torque does a Convert have at the rear wheel?
I didn't think winter was here already.
If you have absolutely nothing to do, go ahead and switch it around. I definitely would not pay to change it.
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Everything you need to know can be found here: http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2009/08/23/tires-directional-arrows-explained-by-avon-tyres/
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I’d have to change it to keep me from thinking about it every time I rode it..
I had a tiny hardly worth it to fix oil drip onto a rear tire…never ever pushed very hard in a right hand curve…but it popped into my brain ALL The Time!!
Whole new bike when I fixed it finally :violent1:
Wait till you put in an unknown new used Convert transmission in and it pops out of gear first time you use it..that’s when you learn you can take it out in 45mins and put it back in 2 1/2 hrs…dammit!
Make it a timed contest, there you go
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+1 with Chuck's response. My OCD has already kicked in and I didn't sleep well last night because of that damn tire. Charles Dicken's
The Tell-Tale Heart comes to mind.
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When I bought my EV I didn't like the way the front tire felt, bought a new set of Metz touring tires. My V700 came to GA on the rims cause I stole the Avons off it to get my LM3 back to GA on a trip to IL. After the LM crash I put back tire back on the 700, front tire hit the car & I didn't trust it. The front got the take off from EV. The Demon went on fine but a few days later someone noticed & told me it's on backwards. That was in 08 and it has never felt weird even in rain. Still working fine.
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Avon says the tire splice is the directional arrow reason. Of all bikes possibly putting excessive pressure on a tire construction splice the convert has to one of the least likely bikes. I'd like to see one tear the skin off a grape. I saw one at a show last month and it didn't move loose gravel exiting a parking lot.
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Having done this in the past and changing tars on many different makes/models of motorcycles a sharpie marker is part of my tire tools. Before I remove the tire, I mark the tire direction with an arrow on the disc's or hub. Saves rework.
FWIW if you remove the tire to flip it you can save some time and forgo the balancing. You'll notice no difference in performance, smoothness or longevity balanced or not.
As other have said the direction being correct is more import for when riding in the rain. I'm also sure that while it does not rain a lot in AZ it does rain on occasion. Or there is a possibility you may travel to and area where you encounter rain. Personally, I'd flip the tire as it's not that big a task. As Ron Swanson say's "never half-ass two things, whole-ass one thing!"
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With rare exception, the directional arrow on the tire is a consequence of DOT testing. Water performance is tested in one direction, and not reversed, so they cast an arrow rather than rate the tire in both directions, or indicate the direction of design preference. High-performance tires, like superbike or drag racing tires may have some structural differences but very unlikely on simple 'commuter' street tires. As stated, it's CYA and compliance for the manufacturer.
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That makes total sense to me, Pressureangle, and sets my mind at ease, right now as I am enjoying my morning coffee, before setting out on a ride, with some of my "HD riding" buddies. We are riding to Bisbee Arizona, and the surrounding "sky islands" in the southeastern corner of Arizona.
Rick D.
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Everything you need to know can be found here: http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2009/08/23/tires-directional-arrows-explained-by-avon-tyres/
Thanks sye, that was interesting and informative. I had forgotten about the "tread splice " thing. I dont forsee a big issue on the convert, though, with its limited power, as others have mentioned. Its not a Hayabusa! :laugh:
Rick.
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There is a reason for the arrows. Matching sets of tires need to perform in pairs. Change the tire!
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I had a new set of Michelin Pilots fitted for Europe 2016 on my Norge, the front was wrong way ‘round but I did not notice it until I got to London.
It did 20,000 km with no ill effects and a lot of it was in the rain,
(https://i.ibb.co/QYhTrHY/IMG-4524.png) (https://ibb.co/QYhTrHY)
but it sorta’ bugged me the whole way. I was hoping to get a flat, but it never happened… :rolleyes:
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Ride it and see what you think. It happened to me. About 10 years ago, I rode my Bandit to Arkansas to one of the RAT raids. I had a new Mucheling rear installed before I left. This is curvy mtn riding in the Ozarks, agressive for me. It didn't feel quite right. It so happened that the shop owner was there he, offered me a new tire when we got back which I took. I'd been OK with just flipping it.
It felt a little squirmy, enough for to check and see.
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I think there are three considerations...
1- as mentioned- water evacuation
2- possible excessive cupping due to wear on the leading edge of the tread
3- the slowing ( and possible reversing) of time if you rode really fast in an east-west direction
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Just my two cents. I believe with radial tires the issue is rain grooves. For bias ply tires its more about load stress.
Back in the day Dunlop 491s only came one way. If you mounted them on a Norton you mounted the rear tire with the arrow in the opposite direction. Rear tire deals with acceleration while the front is about braking.
This may not have anything to to with the OPs bike. Just rambling here.
Pete
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Just my two cents. I believe with radial tires the issue is rain grooves. For bias ply tires its more about load stress.
Back in the day Dunlop 491s only came one way. If you mounted them on a Norton you mounted the rear tire with the arrow in the opposite direction. Rear tire deals with acceleration while the front is about braking.
This may not have anything to to with the OPs bike. Just rambling here.
Pete
+1
A few years ago I wanted to mount a set of Avon Distannzia tires on my Triumph. The tire size I needed for the front was only listed as a "rear" tire.
I contacted Avon directly and they said it was fine to mount a "rear" Distanzia tire in the front as long as the rotational arrow was reversed. This would align the tread pattern and tread splice in the correct orientation required to deal with breaking forces and water dispersion.
You can see the correct mounting in this image. Notice how the patterns are reversed?
(https://i.ibb.co/FqyWT3x/avon-av84-trekrider-tires-750x750.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FqyWT3x)
This may not apply to all tires, but it clearly does to some, so the correct answer to the OPs question is - it depends...
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The amount of misinformation, and,
“I have no actual insight, and I’m just pulling it out of my ass” is outstanding.
If there’s one thing count on, it’s bad advice at old WG.
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I don’t know anything about tires but The Tell-Tale Heart was written by Poe.
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I'm surprised no one menti0oned "if you value your life" change the tire. Rick, I think you will be just fine with the tire on the Convert, but who am I to argue with the the million mile riders that belong to KERA.
Tex
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Hey Tex, Please pardon my ignorance, but what is "KERA"? Interesting discussion ! :grin:
Rick.
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(https://i.ibb.co/dJ768tP/71883259090-4-DD85-BC1-BDAA-4-E62-9390-3-D3-F5-AB72-C8-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dJ768tP)
(https://i.ibb.co/5Y9tK0d/71883373845-ED3-FB9-FC-D46-A-4-C07-A130-E64-C54-A9742-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5Y9tK0d)
(https://i.ibb.co/sRWHq1b/IMG-5602.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sRWHq1b)
(https://i.ibb.co/Pc8FQn4/71883382555-D50-DA021-FDCF-4-DCA-B424-DA1-BE6-DF7895.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pc8FQn4)
Here are a few pics, of the tubeless conversion. I used the Sikaflex 291, and highly recommend it, very easy to work with, and cures fast. I am doing the front rim as we speak. Its incredible, how much easier it is to mount/dismount a tire without the innertube to worry about pinching, especially with the shouldered Borranis, where the "drop center" of the wheel is relatively shallow.
Rick.
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Everything you need to know can be found here: http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2009/08/23/tires-directional-arrows-explained-by-avon-tyres/
:thumb:
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I don’t know anything about tires but The Tell-Tale Heart was written by Poe.
You are correct sir. My bad. Thanks.
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Hey Tex, Please pardon my ignorance, but what is "KERA"? Interesting discussion ! :grin:
Rick.
Rick. KERA= Keyboard Endurance Riders Association. You asked a nice question about your convert tire and got off the wall comments from KERA members.
Tex
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The amount of misinformation, and,
“I have no actual insight, and I’m just pulling it out of my ass” is outstanding.
If there’s one thing count on, it’s bad advice at old WG.
You never fail to entertain. Sorta like a court jester.
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The amount of misinformation, and,
“I have no actual insight, and I’m just pulling it out of my ass” is outstanding.
If there’s one thing count on, it’s bad advice at old WG.
Don’t be too hard on yourself Chad..
Occasionally you get it right.
Also I think you meant to say “astounding”, not “outstanding…”
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BBRick
If its working for ya , and your ridding with Harleys the just let it go like it is ! :laugh:
if it was radial I'd not give it a second thought !
(https://i.ibb.co/Yk84dQX/Bias-Vs-Radial.png) (https://ibb.co/Yk84dQX)
Ya have to click on the picture to see the whole thing , i think ?
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My Wife changes all of our motorcycle tires. She always gets them in the correct orientation
:boozing:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53270998667_39f0340e35_h.jpg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53270998667_39f0340e35_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53271886296_ec2d7194d7_h.jpg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53271886296_ec2d7194d7_h.jpg)
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I showed the picture you posted to my wife, Kevin. She gave me "The Look"..... So I dont think I can count on her assistance. Your wife is definitely a keeper, my friend. :thumb: :thumb:
Rick D.
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I cannot see water dispersion having anything to to with the rolling direction since, AFAIK, both tires run in the same direction. The most important safety issue is the seam in the thread (where present - some tires have seamless rings of rubber vulcanized to the carcass). Since acceleration cause the most forces on the rear tire, and braking on the front tire, you want the overlap seam going in the direction of the forces. This is also why tires should usually be run in opposite direction depending on where it is fitted.
Pattern can be important, especially for the front, as it can aid stability and reduce the tendency to follow rain grooves and their likes. Also, mote often than not, front tires have less thread depth for less weight and more accurate steering.
As for the question from the OP - personally, I would not have bothered with swapping the direction of the tire. If I had a Hayabusa and ran it hard, I most definitely would have fitted the tires in the correct orientation, but not on a gently ridden classic with moderate performance. YMMV.
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I showed the picture you posted to my wife, Kevin. She gave me "The Look"..... So I dont think I can count on her assistance. Your wife is definitely a keeper, my friend. :thumb: :thumb:
Rick D.
Hey Rick -
It gets better !
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51815230377_15285f1825_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53274363269_6b5ca8ea79_h.jpg)
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(https://i.ibb.co/bm18v12/IMG-5627.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bm18v12)
Hey Folks just wanted to report back, I can now sleep better at night. It turns out one of the spokes on my newly sealed rim, had a tiny leak, so I had to dismount the tire, to seal it up, and I am going to make sure the tire is in the correct direction. :grin:
Its also a great time, to clean up the swingarm, paint the brake caliper mount, and polish the rear wheel, and spoke nipples, while I am waiting for the sealant to cure.
Rick D.
Kevin, Sir you are "Da Man" in my book! :bow: :bow:
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How are the forces different on the tyre when leaned over ?
Front has severe braking force. Rear has severe acceleration force. Those are in opposite directions and cause the tire makers to align the tread blocks accordingly, also taking strong consideration of channeling water.
On a low performance bike ridden in dry conditions, it may not make a difference, but it will on heavier/higher performance bikes which see wet pavement.
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Tires are the first and only contact with the pavement. Everything about handling and safety starts there. Why accept ANYTHING that isn't correct?
I've messed up tire mounting in the same way more than once. It's a major pain in the ass and embarrassing as well. Just do it over.
Speaking of rain in Arizona, I live in the central high country and mid to late summer has found me caught in rainstorms much more often than a person might guess.
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I had a new set of Michelin Pilots fitted for Europe 2016 on my Norge, the front was wrong way ‘round but I did not notice it until I got to London.
It did 20,000 km with no ill effects and a lot of it was in the rain,
(https://i.ibb.co/QYhTrHY/IMG-4524.png) (https://ibb.co/QYhTrHY)
but it sorta’ bugged me the whole way. I was hoping to get a flat, but it never happened… :rolleyes:
The obvious quick fix was to buy a paint stick and put an arrow on the side of the tire that matched the existing rotation.
Instant equanimity!
I'm kinda disappointed in you Bro...... I should get over it in a few days..... :wink:
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The obvious quick fix was to buy a paint stick and put an arrow on the side of the tire that matched the existing rotation.
Instant equanimity!
I'm kinda disappointed in you Bro...... I should get over it in a few days..... :wink:
:bow: :laugh: