Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: fastlaners on November 13, 2023, 06:59:00 PM
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Hello All; I’m totally enjoying my 2022V 85TT; I recently made some slight mods; Mistral decat exhaust, MassMoto, full carbon slipon, and Upmap upload; I also installed a K&N filter; but after some research; I’ve read they do not filter as well as the OEM paper filter; and yes I held it up to the light and was disappointed; I could see through it quite easily especially at the bends/folds and no filtering? so I’m considering going back to the OEM paper filter; I just hope I’m not gonna lose any of the benefits/gains that I achieved with the mods. I performed? K&N aftermarket filters claim to flow more air; this may because they don’t filter as well. Thanks John
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What kind of “research” have you actually done? That’s not meant as a jab, just that there are varying opinions from amateurs/enthusiasts, and professionals.
Here are some thoughts from a race tech who has some specific details with these oiled gauze filters:
https://youtu.be/_yYmj-G2R4s?si=Zx55LjGhEXwbnjcm (https://youtu.be/_yYmj-G2R4s?si=Zx55LjGhEXwbnjcm)
I’ve read some that say the filters do indeed good enough a job, but you do have to be careful—watch for moisture, maintain the oiling, re-map, etc. That said, they’re probably not great for the dusty conditions, but they acknowledge themselves that they’re not meant for off-road performance.
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I know you've already purchased it but how many paper filters can you buy for the cost of a K&N? I'd rather use paper and replace it regularly. My understanding is that K&Ns only provide better breathing at high RPM at the expense of allowing more dirt into the engine, hence the 'not for off-road' disclaimer.
Unless you're regularly running near redline I suspect you won't notice any difference. It would be cheap enough to install a good quality paper filter and compare after riding with the K&N. If you like the paper just leave it in.
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I have never used K&N filters but I have talked to experienced mechanics about them and they referred to them as rock catchers.
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Why does conventional wisdom always deem that your engine is suffering from an inability to get enough air ?
If it sucks more air, then it will become too lean..!
The ECU will probably trim around it a bit and then you’re back where you started.
Just put a new air filter in at the service and stop trying to re engineer something that’s just fine.
(Yes I know, I’m the last one who should have said that…!)
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In my fairly well researched opinion, the K&N filter totally sucks if what you want is effective air filtration for a street bike in order to obtain engine longevity. The OEM filters are vastly superior at filtration.
I strongly agree with Huzo. Why is there such a mindless fetish about making engines “breathe” and flow more air? Unless you balance all the variables, you just create an overly lean condition.
I’m pretty sure that way back in 1896, Henry Ford understood that “too lean” wasn’t the answer to superior engine performance.
Look at the kinds of masks humans use in truly dangerous environments, involving harmful dust or microbes. Let’s just say that nobody is using some kind of K&N product in those applications!
Same with 18 wheeler truck engines that are expected to run 2 million or more miles. No sensible person slaps on a K&N filter thinking that now the truck engine will go 3 million miles.
Now. If you are running a dirt bike in muddy wet conditions that might “drown” a conventional paper filter, then maybe the K&N makes sense. If you have modified the bike to eliminate the airbox, or want to have at least some kind of filter pod that is accessible for maintenance, maybe they make sense. All of which is a compromise from the ideal.
But other than those special situations, a K&N just sucks.
But hey, if somebody likes K&N, that’s fine. It’s your bike and your money. I’m not trying to attack your air filter religion.
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The chorus has spoken , and I agree!
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If you already have the filter I wouldn't worry about it. I have never seen an engine fail due to filtration from a K&N. I have seen mass airflow sensors fail due to over oiling but that's user error. Engines are not that delicate.
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IF you are ALWAYS riding on pavement, it likely never matters.
IF you are using the V85TT as a true adventure bike, on dirt and dust, then I would not do it.
I have seen studies showing the increased amount of silicates and such getting into the oil with K&N filters. Not a good thing if you are in dust.
It always amazed me how some people have a 'fetish' about using the best oil they can buy to prolong the motor life, then toss on a rock strainer that lets in grit to eat away at it.
That being said, early this year I had my 25 year old car totaled by a teenager running a red light. After searching for a close replacement for a couple of months I found what I wanted, but a previous owner had put on a cone mesh filter, and tossed the factory air box. Idiot. I can't find a factory air box so I am stuck with this poor fitting rock strainer. I have added a foam prefilter, and will try to stay off of dusty roads I guess. Annoying but not the end of the world.
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I once read an article or a posting on a Cummins forum about aftermarket filters for Cummins Diesels in Ram pickups. They found no improvement over the OEM filters. The only thing the aftermarkets did was allow more intake roar noise. The radials I worked on only had coarse screens on the intakes, we called them seagull catchers.
kk
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On my 2020 the PO road in some really fine dust some where, the whole under the seat and tank where covered in this fine gray dust, it had the stock filter and there was a nice layer of dust inside the intake. So I put in a KN because it seals better, it does have a much better gasket.
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I decided to use a K&N filter because it fits best and solves the problem with dirt migrating past the filter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyde53V2YBw
I am curious if the 2024 V85 has a better airbox design.
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Mike Haven, of MPH Cycles in Houston hates K & N. Now I have the utmost respect for Mike but I've 1/2 million or more miles using K&N and never had engine failure. Do what you want, only don't rely on what some KERA members say.
Texas Turnip
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I have always used K&Ns on the T-3 due to the original filter being such being such a PIA and later switching to 36mm round slides. Lived 16 years three miles off pavement on a sand/dirt road and have never had a problem show up. Need to be cleaned and re-oiled every few thousand miles.
GliderJohn
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I don’t think anyone has tried too hard to make the point that using a K&N or similar will wreck your engine, or cause it to fail.
It’s just that asking it to perform it’s function in a more abrasive environment, seems a touch heartless. In reality it probably just means that you’ll be rebuilding it a bit sooner.
But hey…!
It breathes better… :thumb: :rolleyes:
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Hello All; I’m totally enjoying my 2022V 85TT; I recently made some slight mods; Mistral decat exhaust, MassMoto, full carbon slipon, and Upmap upload; I also installed a K&N filter; but after some research; I’ve read they do not filter as well as the OEM paper filter; and yes I held it up to the light and was disappointed; I could see through it quite easily especially at the bends/folds and no filtering? so I’m considering going back to the OEM paper filter; I just hope I’m not gonna lose any of the benefits/gains that I achieved with the mods. I performed? K&N aftermarket filters claim to flow more air; this may because they don’t filter as well. Thanks John
I've always been a STOCK/OEM Air filter guy.............. 2 wheel or 4 wheel..............
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I wouldn't be scared to run a K&N style filter on a street bike. In most cases, they will not be exposed to enough dust for it to matter much. A K&N or other similar filter would be the last thing I'd use in an offroad application however.
As mentioned, the stock airbox and filter setup will dust the engine as is and I haven't heard of massive reports of engine failures attributed to the dust ingestion from that. I'd be more concerned with the airbox sealing than I would with the use of a K&N, and unfortunately I haven't come up with a good, surefire way to seal up the airbox.
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What am I missing here not having a V85? How did Guzzi screw the pooch that the stock airbox and filter don't seal together?
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What am I missing here not having a V85? How did Guzzi screw the pooch that the stock airbox and filter don't seal together?
There’s like 80 pieces to the dang thing!
(https://i.ibb.co/RgPyNmw/IMG-3050.png) (https://ibb.co/RgPyNmw)
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The K&N reminds me of the old foam filters that you’d clean and oil and repeat, often.
I personally don’t want to clean and/or oil my air filter so I will rely on the old OEM paper filter. YMMV
inditx
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There’s like 80 pieces to the dang thing!
(https://i.ibb.co/RgPyNmw/IMG-3050.png) (https://ibb.co/RgPyNmw)
Hyperbole
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What am I missing here not having a V85? How did Guzzi screw the pooch that the stock airbox and filter don't seal together?
The box uses a tongue and groove style closure at the bottom of the box to connect the front and back halves. The top part of the box has clips to secure the two pieces. The clips provide a good, snug seal but the tongue and groove attachment at the bottom is not tight enough to offer 100% closure. I don't see any way to tighten the bottom of the box up to keep the dirt out.
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I have a couple of high mileage cars (85K and 105K miles) that have never had their air filters replaced because it’s never been needed. Also a bunch of motorcycles that are either on their original air filters or on replacements that were installed because the originals fell apart from age. Whether or not the air filter on a vehicle is critical depends a whole lot on where you run it. In my case any kind of air filter is fine, on any vehicle it seems.
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The box uses a tongue and groove style closure at the bottom of the box to connect the front and back halves. The top part of the box has clips to secure the two pieces. The clips provide a good, snug seal but the tongue and groove attachment at the bottom is not tight enough to offer 100% closure. I don't see any way to tighten the bottom of the box up to keep the dirt out.
I see the four clips in the exploded view, and it looks like an element holder screws into the cover instead of the housing.
I know it would add some work, but how about a thin strip of silicone along the bottom during installation?
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I see the four clips in the exploded view, and it looks like an element holder screws into the cover instead of the housing.
I know it would add some work, but how about a thin strip of silicone along the bottom during installation?
Are you suggesting to glue the airbox halves together every time you disassemble/reassemble it?
I considered adding a bead of silicone or something similar and letting it cure to provide a better seal. I think it would be a challenge to get the box together again with that approach. I also suspect that is why there wasn't a more substantial seal for the box halves in the first place as well, because I think any more material between the two halves would potentially distort the box and make the problem the same or worse.
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Hello All; I’m totally enjoying my 2022V 85TT; I recently made some slight mods; Mistral decat exhaust, MassMoto, full carbon slipon, and Upmap upload; I also installed a K&N filter; but after some research; I’ve read they do not filter as well as the OEM paper filter; and yes I held it up to the light and was disappointed; I could see through it quite easily especially at the bends/folds and no filtering? so I’m considering going back to the OEM paper filter; I just hope I’m not gonna lose any of the benefits/gains that I achieved with the mods. I performed? K&N aftermarket filters claim to flow more air; this may because they don’t filter as well. Thanks John
K&N is fine, but it is true that a new/fresh filter will let more fine particles through as NYC taxi study showed. I have a K&N on my XS1100 that has not been looked at for 20 years and 30K miles ;-) It is the Million Mile Air Filter after all............... Why because changing it is a 3 hour bloody knuckle affair.
I prefer good old stock paper, but if changing is a pain, would not hesitate to throw in a K&N and clean it every 50K miles. YMMV
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Are you suggesting to glue the airbox halves together every time you disassemble/reassemble it?
I considered adding a bead of silicone or something similar and letting it cure to provide a better seal. I think it would be a challenge to get the box together again with that approach. I also suspect that is why there wasn't a more substantial seal for the box halves in the first place as well, because I think any more material between the two halves would potentially distort the box and make the problem the same or worse.
We're at an impass here.
Either it's sealing or it's not
If it's NOT there's a gap that could be filled with a bead of silicone. If you know where it is, yes, apply to the element the day before, let it dry. compress with installation. It doesn't have to be big.
(I'll add that a lot of JAPanInc. off-road products use a light application of grease on the air filter seal to help ensure a good "seal", so that's an option too).
If there is no gap, there's no need, it's sealing.
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I too have had problems making sure the bottom 2 tabs are seated properly. The plastic is thin and easily deformed on lid and fixed portion. They make and I have installed the stiffiners in the lid but it isn't a complete fix. It is very easy to not have both parts mate/seal completely at the bottom. The only way to know is by borescoping or removing part 5 on the lower rear fender assembly so you can see the mating surfaces are aligned. I have spent an hour with a borescope trying to see this area. Next time, I'm removing part 5.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZXcBRyB/Screenshot-20231117-084447.png) (https://ibb.co/ZXcBRyB)
Silicone could work but you still need to insure there are no gaps. I don't think it's needed, but you need to make sure there are no gaps particularly on the bottom.
It is just a pain to get the lid on. Removing the rubber air horns helps but then they are a pain to get back on too.
Putting a new air filter on my DR650 is even worse but this is a close second. :violent1:
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Are you suggesting to glue the airbox halves together every time you disassemble/reassemble it?
I considered adding a bead of silicone or something similar and letting it cure to provide a better seal. I think it would be a challenge to get the box together again with that approach. I also suspect that is why there wasn't a more substantial seal for the box halves in the first place as well, because I think any more material between the two halves would potentially distort the box and make the problem the same or worse.
I always slop a bit of cheap wheel grease on the air filter seal. It hopefully plugs any small leak and traps dirt.
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I like and use K&N filters. Had one in my Carb'd Sport 1100 for years. Currently have one in my hotrod Lincoln.
That being said, I know it's true that they allow larger particles than paper filters.
For a bike like the V85TT which would see lots of dusty gravel roads if I owned one, I would find a paper filter with the most folds I could find.
Operating in a harsh environment, I would want as much surface area as possible.
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A little history for you guys regarding air filters. Back in the mid-fifties when Carl Kiekaefer, Mercury Marine founder, was heavily involved in NASCAR he was having trouble with his Hemi powered Chrysler race cars. His team was having to rebuild the engines all the time. A lot of the races were on dirt tracks and all the dust was eating up the engines. All they had in those days were the down draft oil bath filtering systems. All they stopped was birds and small children. So in partnership with Purolator the paper air filter was developed. His NASCAR team was one the first to use specially built transporters to move the race cars from track to track and one of the first teams to wear uniforms. His teams were very successful and generally dominated and became very hated in the NASCAR world. Probably in that he ran Chryslers and not the golden boy Fords and Chevys. They were the champions in '55 and '56. This is Buddy Baker.
kk
(https://i.ibb.co/xz3SGdD/1-baker-Getty-Images-108319408-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xz3SGdD)
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A paper filter filters best - for sure ;-)
But as I have shown in my slideshow movie the K&N "seals" the shitty airbox housing much better.
It seems that the Cali 1400 has a similar type of airbox housing but with thicker plastic lids.
This company solves this problems with spacers:
https://store.gammazinken.net/epages/161079.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/161079/Products/SM5041001