Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bigbikerrick on November 20, 2023, 10:41:07 AM
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Hello folks, I am trying to help out a friend having trouble with his 03 Lemans. The problem is the bike wont idle, and sputters, backfires, just runs terrible, except for high speeds higher rpms. I started by setting the valves to .006 and .008 . The left side exhaust was so tight ,there was zero clearance, and the intake had very little clearance. I thought I had found the problem, but no such luck! :grin:
It still would not idle, so I cleaned the TBs, and the air screws, with carb cleaner spray, and set TPS to 150mv with butterfly closed . I then set the idle voltage on the TPS to 525 mv, and balanced the TBs. The bike will barely run, is very hard to start, and backfires, as if the timing was off.
The plugs look black and sooty as in too rich, and you can smell fuel when its running. I have gone through the tuning procedure in Guzziology, many times. I even replaced the TPS with a good used one I have,and it made no difference.
any advice and suggestions on what to check next much appreciated.
Rick D.
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Finding the valves tight on one cylinder is no good. If it ran for a period of time in that condition it is likely the valves may be burned up, especially the exhaust. Either do a leak down test or go straight to pulling the head off the left side.
Skippy
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TB bleed screws should be 3/4-1/2 open, identical on both sides. In GuzziDiag program there is an Idle mixture setting, make sure it is 0-30 not much over. Find out what 15M map the bike has installed.
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My Friend rode the LeMans from northern Utah to southern AZ. It was a 3 day trip, and half way through, the bike started to not idle. He rode it that way, at freeway speeds for over a day and a half, so I imagine the valves were closed up on the left side for a while, and he was hauling ass, he told me.. I have ordered the lonelec cable for Guzzi diag. I have not used Guzzidiag in a long time,and need to familiarize myself with it. What can I check or adjust through Guzzidiag, that I cant do with just the multimeter method for setting the TPS, etc?
Steve, I have played with the air bleed screws, from 1/2 open all the way to 1 3/4 turn open. It makes no difference. It sorta acts like there is an air leak, as the idle wont drop back down, but fluctuates, sometimes staying up at 2-3K rpms. I have sprayed carb cleaner all around the intake manifolds,and there was no change in idle to suggest a leak.
Would a compression test help, or only a leak down test?
Anything else I should check?
Thanks
Rick
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It is fuel injected, to adjust idle mixture you need software. The air bleeds also control how rich, open to lean it out but most engines run at 1/2-3/4 and can be up to 1 1/2 open. Other than that you need to adjust the numbers for idle w/software. It will tell you what the map name says. I have seen those ECU's change idle mix on their own.
It could also be a bad temp sensor either oil or air making things rich, that you can do with multi-meter.
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It has the POS plastic plug for the temp sensor to screw into in the right head. It might be broken.
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First, check compression to be sure the exhaust valves aren't leaking- or burnt up entirely. If compression is good on both sides, it's possible there's trash in the injectors; usually this reduces flow but it can hold them open and dribble extra fuel. Also, if you have a failed plug wire or cap (I had similar symptoms with a 5,000 mile NGK plug cap) it will show as misfire with rich spark plug. Ignition is easiest to check, with a Multimeter.
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Timing sensor?
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If the problem were a plug wire or cap, it would not likely show both plugs rich, would it? I would think it could possibly be the oil or air temp sensor. Can those be tested with a multimeter, or do i need guzzidiag for that?
Thanks
Rick D.
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It has the POS plastic plug for the temp sensor to screw into in the right head. It might be broken.
This
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Look in service manual for the specs on reading the sensor w/a meter.
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Timing sensor?
When mine failed, the engine just stopped. No signal from the sensor means the injectors are not energized. Nor the fuel pump, I think (except for 3 sec after the key is turned on)
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So if the timing sensor were bad,or gave no signal to the ECU, the engine would not start at all, as in the fuel pump would not run, and the engine would definitely not run correctly at higher speeds?
I see the bike has the blue plastic temp sensor in the right head. Would it be readily apparent by visual inspection if it were bad or broken, or can that be tested somehow ?
Is this something that would show up on Guzzidiag?
Thanks alot
Rick.
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If the problem were a plug wire or cap, it would not likely show both plugs rich, would it? I would think it could possibly be the oil or air temp sensor. Can those be tested with a multimeter, or do i need guzzidiag for that?
Thanks
Rick D.
You're correct, a wire or cap would affect only the cylinder it's attached to. So yes, the temp sensors can make it run rich but only so much. As suggested, inspect and measure them; I don't know the values to test, myself. BUT also, there are ignition connectons that can affect spark and the ignition switches are always suspect. I'd check voltage at the coils vs. voltage at the battery- if it's minus .5 volts or more, there's resistance in the coil power circuit. So many things to guess at without hands-on. Sit in the bulldozer of science, and start pushing dirt. One thing confirmed or discovered at a time.
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So if the timing sensor were bad,or gave no signal to the ECU, the engine would not start at all, as in the fuel pump would not run, and the engine would definitely not run correctly at higher speeds?
Is this something that would show up on Guzzidiag?
Thanks alot
Rick.
Not run. The fuel pump would cycle with the key (2-3 sec) to pressure up, but not run after that. Kiwi Roy had a nice writeup and a diagram of where to put some diodes to check for power to the ECU and power to the pump. If the ECU gets power, but the fuel pump does not (after cycling), that points to the timing sensor. Also sometimes called the phase sensor or the cam sensor.
From your description it doesn't sound like this would be my first avenue of inspection.
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Thank You Pressureangle,and JRT. I appreciate the responses,and am in agreement. After what you state, I am less inclined to suspect the timing sensor, as the culprit, since the engine will start, after alot of cranking,and throttling, but then it will run at higher rpms without a miss. I dont think that would happen if the timing sensor went kaputz. I will look in the service manual and check on how to test the timing sensor and temp sensor if possible, with a multimeter.
I appreciate the help,and welcome any other suggestions.
thanks
Rick D.
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Thank You Pressureangle,and JRT. I appreciate the responses,and am in agreement. After what you state, I am less inclined to suspect the timing sensor, as the culprit, since the engine will start, after alot of cranking,and throttling, but then it will run at higher rpms without a miss. I dont think that would happen if the timing sensor went kaputz. I will look in the service manual and check on how to test the timing sensor and temp sensor if possible, with a multimeter.
I appreciate the help,and welcome any other suggestions.
thanks
Rick D.
I've seen one that did that when the timing sensor was mis adjusted. From memory :rolleyes: the sensors should be around 600 ohms. You really should go to V11lemans.com. Every little thing about the V11S has been addressed at some time.. :smiley: it is a great resource.
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Without going back and re-reading everything, did you pull the cam sensor and clean the end of it?
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I am away from the bike for the holiday, as soon as I get back home, in a couple of days, I plan to take a look at the cam sensor. Hey Chuck, what you refer to as "misadjusted" is that the distance between the sensor and where it gets a reading, off the cam, or something else ? The bikes owner has a new cam sensor on order, so it will be replaced anyway, in the near future.
thanks guys,
Rick D.
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I found the part about the adjustment of the cam sensor. The clearance from the tip to the toothed area should be 0.7-0.9 mm and shimming gaskets are available in different thicknesses. It seems like it may be a bit "fidgety" to measure and get the clearance just right... :grin:
Rick D.
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Hello folks, I am trying to help out a friend having trouble with his 03 Lemans. The problem is the bike wont idle, and sputters, backfires, just runs terrible, except for high speeds higher rpms. I started by setting the valves to .006 and .008 . The left side exhaust was so tight ,there was zero clearance, and the intake had very little clearance. I thought I had found the problem, but no such luck! :grin:
It still would not idle, so I cleaned the TBs, and the air screws, with carb cleaner spray, and set TPS to 150mv with butterfly closed . I then set the idle voltage on the TPS to 525 mv, and balanced the TBs. The bike will barely run, is very hard to start, and backfires, as if the timing was off.
The plugs look black and sooty as in too rich, and you can smell fuel when its running. I have gone through the tuning procedure in Guzziology, many times. I even replaced the TPS with a good used one I have,and it made no difference.
any advice and suggestions on what to check next much appreciated.
Rick D.
Given that the TPS setting to 157 mv is the most difficult part of the process and you have that done properly, I would suspect fuel injectors may be clogged. Easy enough to get them reconditioned...I did that a year ago on my V11 Scura and it helped a lot. Fiddling with the TPS to get it just perfect to get rid of the cough is probably the hardest part.
The other option is to also load Meinolf's map for the V11 that helped also eliminating 95% of the coughing problem. I've got the faintest barely noticeable hiccup right at 3k, but all other RPM's work perfectly so it's not an issue...but these V11's are notoriously finicky.
You're getting some of the same good advice as you'd get on the V11 Lemans site...but there is also a Good Tuneup write up that Docc maintains...worthwh ile looking at just in case something in that sequence wasn't followed perfectly.
Idle screws and linkage between the throttle bodies also a key important part to getting the bike to run smoothly.
Cheers!
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I found the part about the adjustment of the cam sensor. The clearance from the tip to the toothed area should be 0.7-0.9 mm and shimming gaskets are available in different thicknesses. It seems like it may be a bit "fidgety" to measure and get the clearance just right... :grin:
Rick D.
Someone here suggested using a dot of quick set jbweld or equivalent on the end of the sensor to set the clearance. I recently used that trick on a 99 special sport so I wouldn’t have to open the timing chest for a measurement. The residual oil on the phonic wheel acts like a release and I cut the dot apart with a razor and got an accurate measurement that way .
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Paul, I have Doccs write up on how to tune the V 11 sport. Its good stuff,and I have followed it, and used his method to synch the TBs.
John, thats clever using a drop of fast cure JB weld. Its a sort of works like "plastigauge"! Very clever. I will figgure something out, on how to check the clearance.
Thanks
Rick
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Paul, I have Doccs write up on how to tune the V 11 sport. Its good stuff,and I have followed it, and used his method to synch the TBs.
John, thats clever using a drop of fast cure JB weld. Its a sort of works like "plastigauge"! Very clever. I will figgure something out, on how to check the clearance.
Thanks
Rick
Good to hear Rick…thinking thru other items I have seen another item to check then would be the fuel spigot itself…it could be clogged with debris in the mesh filter. Have you also checked the fuel filter? Do you know if the injectors are spraying a full pattern?
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You have good use of logic, this will help you isolate the issue.
You noted the spark plugs indicated a rich condition, this would be on both plugs correct? If so I would focus on what’s common between the two cylinders. Your first issue is fuel or ignition. The good thing is it runs at higher RPM’S but won’t idle. That would eliminate items like filters. If it’s fuel related and equal between cylinders I would eliminate injectors (it can happen but two fail the same at the same time is unlikely) The TPS is common (you eliminated that with a know good sensor). Temp sensors, I don’t think so. I would think they are NTC so a cold start should be OK but a hot start would be difficult, or if reading in the other range, indicating warm engine, you would have a tough cold start but ok hot start. Maybe fuel pressure, too high if it’s rich, but might run better as air is added. Is the pressure regulator working properly. At idle you don’t need a high fuel pressure because of the negative pressure in the intake (easier to inject fuel) at higher RPM’s you would want the greater fuel pressure due to negative manifold pressure loss. It could be the ECU itself.
Ignition, could be a crap reading from the sensor, not failed but out of spec. I don’t know if the sensor on this bike is a PG or digital.
What you can try, clean the plugs, set the high idle but don’t touch the throttle, install a timing light on one of the plugs. Crank the engine a short period while watching the timing light pulse (is it there and consistent) pull the plugs and see if they are both wet with fuel or dry. This might help you to follow a fuel or ignition fault path. The timing light pulse will show the spark and it’s consistency but not the timing unless you aim it at a timing mark.
Best of luck.
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I have not replaced the fuel filter, Paul, but since it runs good at high RPMs I am thinking there is not a fuel flow problem due to a clogged filter.
Shiny hat, Everything you stated makes sense. I have not done anything with the fuel pressure regulator. I have never heard of those failing, or at least commonly. The timing sensor and its appropriate gap from the trigger is what is starting to look suspect to me. I have a nice timing light, I will use it like you suggest to check the spark consistency, and report back.
This is how the owner of the bike described the running of the bike from Utah down to southern Arizona..."I do remember occasionally on start up after dying at lights it would fire up and idle!
next light stall again and bad start unless revved and clutch slipped to take off"
Its an intermittent problem for sure, where the running goes from bad to worse, but never right. One thing I noticed, not sure if this may be related.... The bike has the red NGK plug boots, and when I removed the caps, the high tension wires has greenish powdery corrosion, where I had to snip off about 1/2 " of wire to get to good clean copper strands, and reinstalled the caps. This made no difference, but thought I would mention it, because I have yet to look at the coil end of the wires. I did check the wires in the dark for any current leakage,and sprayed the wires with water while it was running to see if it made a difference, but it did not.
Thanks alot guys, I appreciate the help,
Rick D.
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I am going to Put a relay between the ignition coils and battery to increase the voltage to the coils. This will make a huge difference in over all performance I believe based on readings I get from my digital voltage gauge. Low voltage and fluctuating voltage is affecting overall performance.
I have not done this yet to My Quota. I did install a digital voltage gauge. I can tell that the engine runs differently as the voltage reading changes from low 12 volt up to 14+ volts. At idle when the engine is running, brake light on, headlight on, turn signal on, the voltage drops to 12 volt, the engine starts to stumble. If I fully charge the battery to 14 volt, start and run the engine, the first few minutes the bike runs great. Then the battery starts loosing voltage down into the 12 volts and starts running poorly. I have replaced the voltage regulator 3 times and still get the same variance in voltage at the battery and same changes in engine performance. Unfortunately, the Quota does not have room for a battery with more amperage.
I have seen the same poor performance with my California engine. Except less often because it has a larger battery.
And, The ignition key switch can vibrate the contacts causing poor ignition performance.
Found this from a manufacture of ignition systems. "Once the horsepower curve was established, a battery was attached just to power the ignition system. This battery was not aided by a charging system, either. That battery was slowly drained after each run and the engine horsepower levels were noted. The first run was at 13.6 volts, and then backup runs were at 12.8 and 12.1 volts.
When the next dyno pull was run at 11.4 volts, the motor started running rough. A further drop in voltage to 11.1 volts caused even more disruption in the firing of the motor, and the run was stopped to avoid hurting the motor. It would seem, according to this test, that when the battery reaches a level of less than 11.5 volts, the motor will not only begin to lose power and run erratically, but also may cause damage to engine components."
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Thats an excellent observation, Mr. Crowcher! I suspected the same cause, when I was trying to figgure out a similar running issue after installing a Dyna III ignition in my 76 Convert. I ended up adding a dedicated relay with a stout, fused wire feed , straight from the battery, to the dyna black box,and to the coils. It made a huge difference in spark strength,and starting on my convert.
Rick D.
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Without going back and re-reading everything, did you pull the cam sensor and clean the end of it?
I have been going back through all the suggestions ,to make sure I have not missed something pertinent, and just thought I would mention, that I did pull the cam sensor, or timing sensor, a few days ago for a visual inspection, and it looked clean. The end runs coated in oil.
I am thinking the sensor you may be referring to, Steve, may be the Flywheel side sensor like found on the earlier Californias, like the EV, that also have that sensor on the right side of the bellhousing that can magnetically attract swarf from the flywheel teeth, and affect running
thanks
Rick..
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I am going to Put a relay between the ignition coils and battery to increase the voltage to the coils. This will make a huge difference in over all performance I believe based on readings I get from my digital voltage gauge. Low voltage and fluctuating voltage is affecting overall performance.
I have not done this yet to My Quota. I did install a digital voltage gauge. I can tell that the engine runs differently as the voltage reading changes from low 12 volt up to 14+ volts. At idle when the engine is running, brake light on, headlight on, turn signal on, the voltage drops to 12 volt, the engine starts to stumble. If I fully charge the battery to 14 volt, start and run the engine, the first few minutes the bike runs great. Then the battery starts loosing voltage down into the 12 volts and starts running poorly. I have replaced the voltage regulator 3 times and still get the same variance in voltage at the battery and same changes in engine performance. Unfortunately, the Quota does not have room for a battery with more amperage.
I have seen the same poor performance with my California engine. Except less often because it has a larger battery.
And, The ignition key switch can vibrate the contacts causing poor ignition performance.
Found this from a manufacture of ignition systems. "Once the horsepower curve was established, a battery was attached just to power the ignition system. This battery was not aided by a charging system, either. That battery was slowly drained after each run and the engine horsepower levels were noted. The first run was at 13.6 volts, and then backup runs were at 12.8 and 12.1 volts.
When the next dyno pull was run at 11.4 volts, the motor started running rough. A further drop in voltage to 11.1 volts caused even more disruption in the firing of the motor, and the run was stopped to avoid hurting the motor. It would seem, according to this test, that when the battery reaches a level of less than 11.5 volts, the motor will not only begin to lose power and run erratically, but also may cause damage to engine components."
That’s great information. What I was used to is the injectors getting power from the ECU which was regulated and stabilized in the 11.? range, I don’t remember the exact voltage but below standard battery and charging voltages to take the voltage side fluctuation out of the equation. I looked at a print and injectors, coils, fuel pump all powered through a relay connected to the battery. I can see how this can play a big role in engine performance and operation. You can do a voltage drop test if you think any of the wires, relay or terminals are suspect. You can also use jumper cables connected to a car battery, don’t start the car, to see if it makes a difference.
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That’s great information. What I was used to is the injectors getting power from the ECU which was regulated and stabilized in the 11.? range, I don’t remember the exact voltage but below standard battery and charging voltages to take the voltage side fluctuation out of the equation. I looked at a print and injectors, coils, fuel pump all powered through a relay connected to the battery. I can see how this can play a big role in engine performance and operation. You can do a voltage drop test if you think any of the wires, relay or terminals are suspect. You can also use jumper cables connected to a car battery, don’t start the car, to see if it makes a difference.
A problem I found was the ignition switch was sending voltage when testing. But, the contacts in the ignition switch were corroded and the amperage was low. When I was chasing wires and checking voltage, I would get a 12+ reading, but the turn signal, gauge lights, brake lights would not work because of the corrosion in the ignition switch contact would not put enough amp's through. There are three sets of contacts in an ignition switch. Feed power through different circuits.
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I have heard it mentioned here many times, where the ignition switch, can be a failure point, especially on older tonti Guzzi, it should be taken apart,and the contacts cleaned and greased, if suspect.
Rick
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I have heard it mentioned here many times, where the ignition switch, can be a failure point, especially on older tonti Guzzi, it should be taken apart,and the contacts cleaned and greased, if suspect.
Rick
Makes sense, when I move from ignition off to steering lock, about half way in the rotation, the lights will come on. If I go past lock to lock and parking lights they might or might not come on. Looks like my switch might need some attention. Thanks to you and John.
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I have ordered the lonelec cable for Guzzi diag. I have not used Guzzidiag in a long time,and need to familiarize myself with it. What can I check or adjust through Guzzidiag, that I cant do with just the multimeter method for setting the TPS, etc?
Once you get Guzzidiag connected and if you can get the bike warmed up enough to idle, check the CO Trim. If it's wildly negative or positive, set it to zero for starters and you can adjust it in 5 or 10 point increments.
One thing I didn't see..did the bike just begin one day to the next to have problems or was it a steady deterioration over time?
Presumably the rubber / nitron seals on the air bleed screws are intact and providing a good seal?
How do the throttle body rubbers look, fore and after of the throttle body...mounted correctly also?
Any stickiness in the TPS itself...can be tested by using the multi meter also...presumably smooth from 157 mv to 4.78 at WOT (with linkage disconnected, high idle screw loose and both idle screws backed off and not touching)...It could have a bad TPS unless it's been replaced recently.
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I will have to check the CO when I get Guzzidiag,and the lonelec cable, PJPR01. My friend was riding the bike from Utah to AZ over 3 days,and the bike suddenly started acting up in the middle of the trip, and stayed that way. I think it started acting up from one day to the next. As far as the other stuff, the O ring seals on the air bleed screws are in good shape, as well as the manifold rubbers. Those were sprayed with carb cleaner looking for air leaks,and none were found. The TPS seems fine, I even temporarily replaced with one from my 98 EV, and it made no difference. I set both up to 157mv and 525 mv at idle. The TBs were also thoroughly cleaned inside as well as the butterfly valves, and the air bleed screws. They were pretty dirty with black residue.
thanks
Rick.
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Cool....that almost sounds like a tank of bad gas since nothing else mechanical seems to be jumping out as an obvious issue, perhaps there is water in the gas..tried any fuel treatment or draining and re-filling with a fresh tank?
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Cool....that almost sounds like a tank of bad gas since nothing else mechanical seems to be jumping out as an obvious issue, perhaps there is water in the gas..tried any fuel treatment or draining and re-filling with a fresh tank?
After the bike started running bad, on the road, according to the owner about 3-4 more tankfulls of different gas was run through it, with no change in performance. When my friend brought the bike to me, he had just filled the tank to the top again. The bike is running so rich, that by starting it and just testing/ running it in my garage, the fuel light is already turning on, and there is only about 1/4 tank of fuel left! I can remove the tank,and dump the gas into a container to make sure there is no water ,or any other contaminants.
Its better to leave no stone unturned!
thanks
Rick D.
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I didn’t read through all this again.. has anyone suggested you try a different ECU?
I have one I would gladly ship to you but it’s marked Quota and I’m not even sure it’s good. But you could flash it with a new map for the V11 if you want to try that.
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Someone here suggested using a dot of quick set jbweld or equivalent on the end of the sensor to set the clearance. I recently used that trick on a 99 special sport so I wouldn’t have to open the timing chest for a measurement. The residual oil on the phonic wheel acts like a release and I cut the dot apart with a razor and got an accurate measurement that way .
Jeez..
Now THAT is a good idea.. :bow: :thumb:
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Without reading all of the foregoing..
Can you remove the timing plug and ascertain exactly where the left cylinder should fire and mark it. Then attach a good Xenon timing light and run the bike up, perhaps you can see if the anomaly coincides with an errant fluctuation in the timing.
It would be great if you could eliminate either spark or fuel.
I did notice the ball joints on the cross linkage on my Norge, were heavily worn and could rattle up or down quite a bit and thus throw the TB balance out to glory.
On one occasion I applied a slight load on the linkage and it disconnected…!
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Hey Huzo, thats a good idea, to evaluate spark quality and consistency.Since the timing is not adjustable like with a distributor, on this bike, I never thought to use the timing light that way, but I will check it out, when I get home to where the bike is in a couple days. The linkage rod seems to fit well on this bike. It would be helpful, to isolate the problem to either spark, or fuel.
thank you
Rick.
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No worries.
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I didn’t read through all this again.. has anyone suggested you try a different ECU?
I have one I would gladly ship to you but it’s marked Quota and I’m not even sure it’s good. But you could flash it with a new map for the V11 if you want to try that.
Thats very nice of you to offer the ECU to rule that out, Brad.. I may just take you up on the offer, if I dont find any other cause. I should be back where the bike is in a day or two, and I plan to hook up Guzzidiag, and re set everything back to baseline, to make sure I didnt miss anything. If at that point , no solution is found, I will get with you on the quota ECU. A couple of guys suggested it may just be the ecu.
thanks alot,
Rick D.
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Something to consider;
A poor ignition circuit results in low voltage to the ECU; the ECU adjusts the injector timing for voltage, because they act slower with reducing voltage and fuel pressure may be affected to some extent as well. If there's some way for the ECU to see low voltage with the injectors seeing true voltage, they will be very rich. Not something I've observed personally, but I know it's in there.
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Strange one for sure. Looking forward to the cause for this one the tank slapper and the one that looses compression in one cylinder when warm.
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Something to consider;
A poor ignition circuit results in low voltage to the ECU; the ECU adjusts the injector timing for voltage, because they act slower with reducing voltage and fuel pressure may be affected to some extent as well. If there's some way for the ECU to see low voltage with the injectors seeing true voltage, they will be very rich. Not something I've observed personally, but I know it's in there.
(https://i.ibb.co/4VPkCx9/20231019-154209.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4VPkCx9)
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I can see where corrosion in the ignition switch can cause problems. What year/model Guzzi is that from, John? I will be getting back to the bike in a few days. Will follow up with what I find. Thanks Guys!
Rick D.
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Hello Folks, a follow up here. I decided to do a compression test on the bike and found the right side only has about 30 psi, the left side 145-150 psi. The valve lash is within spec. I added a couple of ounces of oil through the spark plug hole and rechecked the compression. right side only went up to 35-40, left side still at 150 psi.
what do you guys think? No Bueno, eh? This is after I replaced the crank position sensor and the plug wires and caps! Its no wonder, that I could not get the bike to idle,and run correctly :sad:
Thanks alot
Rick
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I have seen them run on 80psi but barely, you found it.
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A leak down tester will tell you whether it's rings and/or valves.. It might save you from doing the heads and then finding the rings are bad, too. :shocked:
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Wow…very interesting find…how many miles are on the bike? Sudden compression loss…how would that occur? Gunk that didn’t burn up from the fuel or low oil level…doesn’t compression usually go out gradually not one second to another?
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A leak down tester will tell you whether it's rings and/or valves.. It might save you from doing the heads and then finding the rings are bad, too. :shocked:
We tried a leakdown test, could not get it to hold any pressure on either side. I think I did it right, I placed the cylinder I was testing at TDC of compression stroke, and pumped it up with my air compressor up to 80 psi. no pressure would hold on the gauge of the tester. we added a few ounces of oil, to each cylinder,and re tested. Still did not hold any pressure on either side. could hear air through the dipstick hole, nothing through the intake or exhaust that I can tell. Did I do something wrong with the way I did the test?
thanks
Rick
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my friend bought the bike used, it has speedhut instruments, so mileage unknown. Owners guesstimates around 30K. It started running bad ,on a 3 day highway ride from northern Utah to southern Arizona, a 3 day ride. It started not wanting to idle, and became hard to start mid way during the trip. The owner did ride it at 100 mph a few tmes,and states it ran real strong at top end. Crazy huh, how well it ran with such low compression on one side!
Rick.
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We tried a leakdown test, could not get it to hold any pressure on either side. I think I did it right, I placed the cylinder I was testing at TDC of compression stroke, and pumped it up with my air compressor up to 80 psi. no pressure would hold on the gauge of the tester. we added a few ounces of oil, to each cylinder,and re tested. Still did not hold any pressure on either side. could hear air through the dipstick hole, nothing through the intake or exhaust that I can tell. Did I do something wrong with the way I did the test?
thanks
Rick
(scratching head) Something wrong there..
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my friend bought the bike used, it has speedhut instruments, so mileage unknown. Owners guesstimates around 30K. It started running bad ,on a 3 day highway ride from northern Utah to southern Arizona, a 3 day ride. It started not wanting to idle, and became hard to start mid way during the trip. The owner did ride it at 100 mph a few tmes,and states it ran real strong at top end. Crazy huh, how well it ran with such low compression on one side!
Rick.
I'll propose a bent valve.
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With air escaping from the crankcase during the leakdown test I am suspecting a holed piston. I think rings wouldn't fail that quickly unless one broke but even so I don't think compression would drop that drastically with a broken ring. Detonation?
kk
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We tried a leakdown test, could not get it to hold any pressure on either side. I think I did it right, I placed the cylinder I was testing at TDC of compression stroke, and pumped it up with my air compressor up to 80 psi. no pressure would hold on the gauge of the tester. we added a few ounces of oil, to each cylinder,and re tested. Still did not hold any pressure on either side. could hear air through the dipstick hole, nothing through the intake or exhaust that I can tell. Did I do something wrong with the way I did the test?
thanks
Rick
Yes, I believe something was done incorrectly. Make sure the cylinder being tested is at TDC compression stroke. Put the bike in gear and apply the brake. When pressurizing the cylinder it can push the piston down and rotate the engine, be sure it stays at TDC. The cylinder showing 150 psi should definitely pass a leak down test.
Air in the crankcase is normal during a leak test even on a new engine. The gauge will show you how much of a loss.
In reality all this is pointless because the cylinder with 30 psi will need the head removed, something has to be repaired. If you want a guess it’s a burnt exhaust valve but you have to remove the head anyway so that will answer the question. If for some reason you don’t want to pull the head on the bad cylinder use a bore scope.
Best of luck.
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For a leak down I put motor at BDC after TDC when I loosen tappets & remove pushrods. No gear, no brake needed. Then I can bang on ea valve & see how they seal & you don't have to worry about rotation. Be aware it makes a big bang when you hit the valve.
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For a leak down I put motor at BDC after TDC when I loosen tappets & remove pushrods. No gear, no brake needed. Then I can bang on ea valve & see how they seal & you don't have to worry about rotation. Be aware it makes a big bang when you hit the valve.
That is an unnecessary process and the long way round for a simple leak down test but if it works for you that’s fine.
If cylinder scoring is what you’re looking for throughout the piston travel then BTD and TDC is not enough plus it’s making a quick simple test complicated. A compression and leak down will get the average person a starting point.
I also wouldn’t tell members to bang a valve open, they can drive the valve into the piston and create a problem that did not exist, sorry, that is bad advice.
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Haven't had any issues hitting valve at BDC in over 50yrs so I don't think I'll have one. I'm out, if your an expert like the rest here, you fix it. NO WONDER every tech leaves this place, the TROLL factor is terrible.
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Thank you guys for educating me on the proper way to do a leakdown test. I had never done one before, and just put the piston at TDC on compression, then filled the cylinder with compressed air. I am thinking in this case with the compression test showing almost no compression on one side, head removal is in order, to see whats going on.
I appreciate the advice and suggestion, guys. Much appreciated....Espe cially yours, Guzzisteve!
Rick
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Haven't had any issues hitting valve at BDC in over 50yrs so I don't think I'll have one. I'm out, if your an expert like the rest here, you fix it. NO WONDER every tech leaves this place, the TROLL factor is terrible.
You didn’t say do it at BDC, you gave no specifics.
Simply put it’s bad advice and you have to consider a newbie reading this and think it’s ok to bang a valve open.
I guarantee you the cause would have been long ago solved if the bike was in front of me.
If I gave incorrect advice then correct that, I know why you posted what you did and that my friend was trolling.
Reread my post I gave advice as to why he could be having an issue with the leak test and gave him things to check, that’s not trolling.
You were incorrect in your advice and rather then admit it was a mistake you played the troll card.
Not cool.
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Hey Guys, I was laying in bed,awake last night thinking about this. This is so strange, the way the bike would run great at high speeds, but not idle, etc at lower speeds. Incredible that would happen with almost no compression on the right side. I guess its possible once the engine is spinning up to speed. The V 11 sport is at my "retirement" home in Green valley south of Tucson, where I am at only on weekends. The plan is to trailer the bike to the owners home a few miles away, and I will help him remove the head/cylinder there. From what I gather, with this bike it looks like its been ridden hard and put away wet, as they say. I had a hard time getting the oil dipstick back in, it was very "finicky", and had to find a hole to go into way deep in the engine. I realized the bike has had a sloppage plate of some type installed. You can see the alloy plate between the sump spacer, and the block. almost all the alloy bits on the bike have been powder coated black, etc. You can tell the bike has been taken all apart,and "messed with" alot.
Rick.
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Wrenching on these old bikes, sure is a learning experience! I have to keep reminding myself "check the simple things first" If I would have had the presence of mind to do a compression check first, I would have avoided the owner from spending money on the crank sensor, wires, caps, TPS,etc. Live and learn, fellas! Its all good, though. I view it all as part of the learning curve. Once we get the head and cylinder pulled, I will take photos,and follow up with you guys here as to what the findings are.
Thanks to every single one of you guys that have helped me. You guys rock! :bow:
Rick.
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Wrenching on these old bikes, sure is a learning experience! I have to keep reminding myself "check the simple things first" If I would have had the presence of mind to do a compression check first, I would have avoided the owner from spending money on the crank sensor, wires, caps, TPS,etc. Live and learn, fellas! Its all good, though. I view it all as part of the learning curve. Once we get the head and cylinder pulled, I will take photos,and follow up with you guys here as to what the findings are.
Thanks to every single one of you guys that have helped me. You guys rock! :bow:
Rick.
Here’s a really simple test for compression, use your thumb. If you can hold your thumb over the spark plug hole it most likely doesn’t have enough compression to fire. If it blows your thumb off and you hear the air pop it will be enough to fire. Not exact science but it is a quick simple thing to do. Unplug the coils before doing this.
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You didn’t say do it at BDC, you gave no specifics.
Simply put it’s bad advice and you have to consider a newbie reading this and think it’s ok to bang a valve open.
I guarantee you the cause would have been long ago solved if the bike was in front of me.
If I gave incorrect advice then correct that, I know why you posted what you did and that my friend was trolling.
Reread my post I gave advice as to why he could be having an issue with the leak test and gave him things to check, that’s not trolling.
You were incorrect in your advice and rather then admit it was a mistake you played the troll card.
Not cool.
He said bdc in the first sentence. No edit. It’s the only place to stake a valve safely. it’s useful to blow seat/valve interface in case there is crud there. It also checks the sealing of the valves without having to hold the crank. The advice is correct.
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You didn’t say do it at BDC, you gave no specifics.
Simply put it’s bad advice and you have to consider a newbie reading this and think it’s ok to bang a valve open.
I guarantee you the cause would have been long ago solved if the bike was in front of me.
If I gave incorrect advice then correct that, I know why you posted what you did and that my friend was trolling.
Reread my post I gave advice as to why he could be having an issue with the leak test and gave him things to check, that’s not trolling.
You were incorrect in your advice and rather then admit it was a mistake you played the troll card.
Not cool.
My bad, I do an extreme test at bottom cause it should be tighter(rings). No trolling, I shouldn't be on computer anyway.
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He said bdc in the first sentence. No edit. It’s the only place to stake a valve safely. it’s useful to blow seat/valve interface in case there is crud there. The advice is correct.
True, he did say set to BDC after TDC then bang the valves open? I stand corrected. Still not good advice and doesn’t blow out what the engine running or cranking would normally do. Look at the big picture, the engine was operated for days with claimed speeds up to 100mph and there might be crud between a valve and seat causing the issue which can be cleaned? At that point the crud valve is toast. Also noted to unloosen the adjusters and remove the push rods to perform the bang valve cleaning. Applying the same logic you would remove the valve actuation on an overhead cam 4 valve head to bang on valves? Get into 3, 4, 6, 8 cylinder engines and it’s taking a simple test and adding way more than you have to. The OP has 30 psi in one cylinder, you could bang on the valves all day.
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My bad, I do an extreme test at bottom cause it should be tighter(rings). No trolling, I shouldn't be on computer anyway.
I’m willing to learn, why are the rings tighter on the bottom? I would think you would want to test where they would be loosest to not skew the leak test, if the rings are tighter on the bottom? Is it a comparison between TDC and BDC? That’s a spec I’ve never seen, indication of cylinder taper? Curious.
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In the aircraft shop after a run in on an overhauled radial we did a leak down test. It was always done at top TDC. I don't know why but that's what was done. Those engines don't have a cam as we know them the but used a cam plate. Had to hold on to the prop and it was surprising how much force there was even at only 80psi.
kk
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In the aircraft shop after a run in on an overhauled radial we did a leak down test. It was always done at top TDC. I don't know why but that's what was done. Those engines don't have a cam as we know them the but used a cam plate. Had to hold on to the prop and it was surprising how much force there was even at only 80psi.
kk
Yep , those big suckers will kill you . Let a blade get a little off dead center and it’s time to pay very close attention… :coffee:
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Gentlemen, thanks for your comments on working on aircraft. I worked on Stearmans, Twin Beech, up to Connies. I enjoyed the recips. The jets are wonderful, but the prop jobs have a different soul.
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In the aircraft shop after a run in on an overhauled radial we did a leak down test. It was always done at top TDC. I don't know why but that's what was done. Those engines don't have a cam as we know them the but used a cam plate. Had to hold on to the prop and it was surprising how much force there was even at only 80psi.
kk
It’s done at TDC compression because the valves are fully closed in this position. You need this to do a leak down test.
You can’t do it at BDC because, depending on the stroke, a valve will be opened. This is the reason Steve removes the push rods so the valves will be closed. It’s an unnecessary step for a leak test but if that’s your thing go for it.
When the cylinder is pressurized the piston can move down. It can go either way and rotate the crank backwards or forward depending on the rod position. Once the piston is pushed down a valve will open and the test is not going to be accurate and can actually lead you to believe there is a leak past a valve because you are unaware the piston moved.
If there is a leak past one of the valves it can still be hard to determine which on. Once the air gets past the valve it enters a high volume low pressure area and the velocity slows. If you hear the leak open the throttle and listen for a sound change. On the exhaust block one of the mufflers if it uses a crossover and listen to the other or light a cigar and blow the smoke at the muffler end.
My posts aren’t to argue or troll it’s to help the OP and anyone else unfamiliar with a leak down test. It’s a simple test, try and keep it that way.
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I realized the bike has had a sloppage plate of some type installed. You can see the alloy plate between the sump spacer, and the block. almost all the alloy bits on the bike have been powder coated black, etc. You can tell the bike has been taken all apart,and "messed with" alot.
Rick.
That sounds like the "Pete Roper sloppage plate" designed by one of the forum members here and over at https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/. You may consider posting your problems over on that forum as it is specified to the V11 with some very knowledgeable and helpful people. It is a small community, and considering the bike has SpeedHut guages and the Roper sloppage plate, both of which seem to have originated from members of the V11 forum, it is possible that you may find the previous owner of the bike there in order to get background information.
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I've always done a leak down at TDC ready to fire on that cylinder. Staking the valves at that position (with a copper hammer) will many times blow off carbon/corrosion/crap from the valves, and compression will come up.
I guess its possible once the engine is spinning up to speed.
Yes it is. I've seen cylinders with little compression running fairly normally at cruise rpm.
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(https://i.ibb.co/0yfJdFz/IMG-5772.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0yfJdFz)
(https://i.ibb.co/MBfYPfm/IMG-5774.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MBfYPfm)
(https://i.ibb.co/0yfJdFz/IMG-5772.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0yfJdFz)
(https://i.ibb.co/XtXCYQw/IMG-5771.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XtXCYQw)
hey Guys, I pulled the head. The cylinder looks good, I believe. The area of the head, around the exhaust valve looks blackened. I turned the head upside down ,and filled it with water, water ran out the exhaust port. no water came out the intake port. You can see the water dribbling out in the second photo.
Rick.
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(https://i.ibb.co/Vmb7bFj/IMG-5773.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vmb7bFj)
Check out the area around the exhaust port in the rocker box. it is all blackened. What do you guys think of that? The area around the intake port looks normal. This is the right side head. The left side is where I originally found the valves had zero clearance.
Rick
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Like I mentioned a long time ago.. a proper leak down test would have told you if the rings are bad, too. (shrug) Now, you don't know.. you may just get the head done, put it back together, and find out the rings need to be replaced. (I'm guessing they are ok, though)
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(https://i.ibb.co/0yfJdFz/IMG-5772.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0yfJdFz)
(https://i.ibb.co/MBfYPfm/IMG-5774.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MBfYPfm)
(https://i.ibb.co/0yfJdFz/IMG-5772.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0yfJdFz)
(https://i.ibb.co/XtXCYQw/IMG-5771.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XtXCYQw)
hey Guys, I pulled the head. The cylinder looks good, I believe. The area of the head, around the exhaust valve looks blackened. I turned the head upside down ,and filled it with water, water ran out the exhaust port. no water came out the intake port. You can see the water dribbling out in the second photo.
Rick.
Looking at the pictures it looks like the piston kissed the exhaust valve.
You’re pulling both heads to have the valves done?
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Like I mentioned a long time ago.. a proper leak down test would have told you if the rings are bad, too. (shrug) Now, you don't know.. you may just get the head done, put it back together, and find out the rings need to be replaced. (I'm guessing they are ok, though)
With a leak at the exhaust valve a leak down test would not help him determine if the rings were worn. To determine if the rings are worn the valves would have to seal. Would work on the good cylinder but not the one reading 30 psi.
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(https://i.ibb.co/Vmb7bFj/IMG-5773.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vmb7bFj)
Check out the area around the exhaust port in the rocker box. it is all blackened. What do you guys think of that? The area around the intake port looks normal. This is the right side head. The left side is where I originally found the valves had zero clearance.
Rick
Yeah that got warm. I imagine when that cylinder would fire at higher RPM’s the leak caused excessive heat. Just curious are the exhaust header pipes a different color right and left?
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Leakdown test is performed at TDC because that's where ring seal matters; there is no meaningful or useful cylinder pressure in the bottom half of the stroke. IIRC peak cylinder pressure is around 20* after TDC, but you can't do a leakdown there unless you have the means to restrain the crankshaft against the pressure, which as stated by others is a lot harder than one might think.
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You have to be *right at* TDC. Otherwise, pressure will just push the piston down, and you have to start over.
With a leak at the exhaust valve a leak down test would not help him determine if the rings were worn. To determine if the rings are worn the valves would have to seal. Would work on the good cylinder but not the one reading 30 psi.
I respectfully disagree. I can hear 30 psi. at the breather without an issue.
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(https://i.ibb.co/Vmb7bFj/IMG-5773.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vmb7bFj)
Check out the area around the exhaust port in the rocker box. it is all blackened. What do you guys think of that? The area around the intake port looks normal. This is the right side head. The left side is where I originally found the valves had zero clearance.
Rick
combustion gasses are being forced up through the valve guide as the exhaust valve is not sealing . Time to pull that valve and inspect valve guide clearance as well as valve and seat conditions.
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You have to be *right at* TDC. Otherwise, pressure will just push the piston down, and you have to start over.I respectfully disagree. I can hear 30 psi. at the breather without an issue.
I think we are on two different pages.
When the OP did the compression test the right cylinder was 30 psi, the leak down test was 0.
He could never build any pressure in the cylinder to do a proper leak down for the rings due to the pressure loss out the exhaust valve.
If the valves sealed properly and he was able able to get the tester to 90 psi and showing a loss of 30 psi then yes you would hear that in the breather, dip stick hole, etc.
Kind of past that now, he does have a problem with the exhaust valve leaking so that will be his area of focus.
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as a mechanical nitwit. given a burned valve, what next? new valve? new seat in the head? both? something else?
you guys have all done this but me? I haven't. The suspense is killing me. :embarrassed:
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We will see what the more knowledgable here recommend. I bought a valve spring compressor,and plan to remove the valves today, and take a look at the valves and the seats, and check the play in the guide. :popcorn:
Rick
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Make sure that if you disassemble both heads at the same time that you keep track of which valves belong to which head. Common sense I know, but easy to get them mixed up especially on 4v heads , I am still a bit skeptical about the rings , It looks from the bore photo that there is a bit of corrosion ? At this point may be worthwhile to have a look. could have a stuck compression ring
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Make sure that if you disassemble both heads at the same time that you keep track of which valves belong to which head. Common sense I know, but easy to get them mixed up especially on 4v heads , I am still a bit skeptical about the rings , It looks from the bore photo that there is a bit of corrosion ? At this point may be worthwhile to have a look. could have a stuck compression ring
I have not cleaned up the top of the piston, and the cylinder yet, but from what I saw, the crosshatch marks are still visible in the nikasil coating, and there is no obvious signs of cylinder damage. That makes me hopeful the rings are intact. for sure a broken ring would cause some cylinder damage, I would think. I cant get the valves mixed up here, they are different sizes, but thanks for the heads up. I will post some photos, for the group to see, when I remove the valves.
thanks
Rick
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The exhaust valve in the right head is bent, piston hit it, slight but bent none the less (you’ll know more when it’s removed).
Replace that valve and have a machine shop do the heads, they will also let you know if the seats, guides and intake valve are ok and useable.
I would recommend to do both, you will have one redone with clean dressed valves and the left side will have build up on the valves. You will have to compensate for that with balance, chase it.
I would rather start with both heads being done and all things being equal. If it’s a budget job you can probably leave the left alone, the choice is yours but there are unknowns (you didn’t ask but if you did I would not do one without the other).
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(https://i.ibb.co/vhM8kyC/72419527592-2-EAA5-ABC-AB14-4978-A2-F9-12-F9-C2-B5-B857-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vhM8kyC)
(https://i.ibb.co/kS9kyxh/72419522979-02-BECA70-8-CFE-4-D22-A539-E4-F49-F5-E3729.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kS9kyxh)
(https://i.ibb.co/vhM8kyC/72419527592-2-EAA5-ABC-AB14-4978-A2-F9-12-F9-C2-B5-B857-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vhM8kyC)
some photos of head with valves removed. I am concerned about the condition of the exhaust seat,and guide. seems to have alot of side play in the valve.
Rick.
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(https://i.ibb.co/pPct5dq/72419524779-FEF1199-A-EE5-B-4-D63-909-B-3071-FEA91-EF4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pPct5dq)
this is the exhaust valve. Do valve guides need to be reamed to the size of the valve stem after installation, or are they ready to be used after just pressing them in?
Rick
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New guides usually need to be honed to the proper clearance for the valve stem. Sunnen makes equipment to do that. I would get the parts you need and take everything to a competent machine shop. Pulling old guides and installing new ones is no fun if the guides need to be replaced. Also a lot of specialized equipment and tools is required for the job.
kk
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When dealing with parts held captive in aluminum (bearings, bushings, valve guides, etc) the part needs to be heated so it expands, otherwise the opening gets enlarged removing the part. Installing new guides is tricky, heating the whole head, freezing the guide, then installing the guide before it heats and expands and also cools the head. If it doesn't go right, there's a possibility the guide can work loose and that would be disastrous. Also, if things aren't right, it's possible the head can separate from the stem and then there's big problems. There are a lot of fine details doing valve guides - it's a job bordering on art - having a 'feel' for the materials and timing and knowing when things are right.
Looks like you're on the right track to getting this baby back on the road. I doubt there's anything wrong with the pistons or rings.
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Thank you Moparnut, and wirespokes. I appreciate the information. New guides are on order,and the plan is to find a machine shop in Tucson , thats familiar with working on air cooled motorcycle engines, and take them the head and parts. There are no machine shops in the small town where I live.
Rick.
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I would recommend K-lining the guides. K-lining allows the guide to stay in place and maintains the original valve guide center line and gives the valve a new surface to wear. It also carries lubricant better and makes things last a lot longer. K-lining is a brass material.
Information here.
https://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/valve-guide-liners.html
Brian
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Thank you Moparnut, and wirespokes. I appreciate the information. New guides are on order,and the plan is to find a machine shop in Tucson , thats familiar with working on air cooled motorcycle engines, and take them the head and parts. There are no machine shops in the small town where I live.
Rick.
An aircooled VW shop should have the correct size mandrels.
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Thank you Brian, for the info on "K" liners. They must drill out the original guides,to make room for the K liner. I did not see what holds the liner in place. Thats good info on a VW shop, Chuck. There is a place in Tucson ,I have in mind, I think they are called EMPI that caters to the VW buggy crowd. I bet they know of a good local machine shop. Gracias, Senor!
Rick.
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Pardon my ignorance, fellas, but if the valve seats in the head are damaged, can those be replaced ? They look like just a steel " ring ", pressed into the alloy head, but im sure there is more to it than that.
Rick.
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Pardon my ignorance, fellas, but if the valve seats in the head are damaged, can those be replaced ? They look like just a steel " ring ", pressed into the alloy head, but im sure there is more to it than that.
Rick.
Replacing valve seats is a specialized operation that can be botched by an amateur. The process requires access to liquid nitrogen to chill the replacement seats. I am sure there are a few shops out there that can perform this competently.
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We replaced quite a few guides in the aircraft shop where I worked. Removing the old one required heat from an acetylene torch and a slide hammer. To install the new one the head would have to be heated to 500* F. The guide would have been in dry ice for a couple of hours, we had no source for liquid nitrogen. The the quide would be inserted quickly in to the head and seated with the same slide hammer. The boss and the number 2 guy would do this and then handed it off to me for honing. We had an extensive pin set which I used for sizing. Best taken to a shop that is equipped to perform this kind of work.
kk
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The owner of the V 11 sport,depending on what the machinist tells him about his existing head, may be considering other options, like buying a used head online. We have seen a few on flea bay that look promising. Is there any difference in heads from say an EV and a V 11 sport, or a quota, or are all 1100 square heads basically the same ?
thank you
Rick.
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Thanks Chuck,and KK. Rebuilding a Guzzi head properly sounds like a very specialized operation. Thank you for the information. Its all helpful, in what direction we take with this repair.
Rick D.
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EMPI is a World-renowned VW performance house. I would not hesitate to give them my stuff if they'll take it. Both guides and seats are replaceable, and not voodoo to those with the proper equipment and knowledge. I've done both with hand tools in the shop, though not specifically M-G. Be sure that you and they both know how the guides are fitted and retained; some are held by the valve spring seat via a flange, some are held by a snap ring, etc. iirc it may matter which direction you push them out/in.
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Thanks for the heads up, pressureangle.
Rick.
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Hello, Folks. I just wanted to update you all, on the progress of this V 11 sport. The right cylinder head has been taken to a machine shop in Tucson called "The racers edge". They are specialists in all sorts of performance engine stuff, and after taking a look at the head they said: The valve seats in the head are pushed in and need to be replaced, as well as the valve guides. You could wiggle the exhaust valve sideways,and it would "wiggle" about 1/16 "! They said it would be no problem for them to install new seats ,guides, and the new valves.
Rick D.
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If the right head is that bad, if it were me I would take the left one in as well. But that is just me. But I once had an older Chevy PU, burned a valve. Took the one head off, the valve could be wiggled back and forth a substantial amount. I only needed the truck for a couple more months so I got a replacement valve and threw it back together. Drove it as is for another couple of years.
kk
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Thanks for the update, Rick.
Paul B :boozing: :popcorn:
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Good advice KK, exactly what I recomended to the owner of the bike. Especially since the right side that is being rebuilt, was not the side I found the valves to have zero clearance, it was the left. Since its a pretty nice leMans, I would do it right, but I have a feeling the owner may end up eventually selling it, and just keeping his Griso.
Rick.
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As a prospective buyer I would run away. If you didn’t do this right then I’d assume nothing was.
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I agree with you Steve. Hopefully he will decide to do both sides. If it were my bike, I sure would.
Rick.