Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mwether on April 29, 2024, 07:39:06 PM
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Editing the post to get your thoughts comparing/contrasting these two bikes as a first Guzzi:
1979 V50iii, 26K miles, $1600
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/801983888555711/
1971 Moto Guzzi V7 Ambassador, 12K miles, $3,800
https://www.facebook.com/commerce/listing/1631782620931005/
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ORIGINAL POST
How dumb would this be as a first Goose...?
1979 V50iii $1,600
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/801983888555711/
It's not a Loop, but it's pretty cool and the right size.
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How dumb would this be as a first Goose...?
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/801983888555711/
It's not a Loop, but it's pretty cool and the right size.
Much better than the Nevada, but I like the V50 especially the MK3's.
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The v50 is the right size and goes 100 mph,perfect for your mountain roads.Buy it and don’t come back here until you do.
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Except that's not a V50 III, looks like a II with III sidecovers and tank. The III didn't start until '81, so if that's a '79 then it's definitely a II. Not as peppy as the III - smaller valves and carbs, trouble prone Bosch electronic ignition. Front brake master cylinder under the tank, copying BMW.
The Ambassador looks good overall, but there's no mention of whether the cylinders are still the original chrome plated bores. If they are, then figure another $900 to have the cylinders replated, new rings, and gaskets. More if you can't do your own work. The chrome bores commonly flake and the shards of chrome destroy the bearings, crank and oil pump if left go long enough.
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The Bosch ignition on our 79 never has failed.Plenty of power for mountain roads and great handling and brakes.For the price,if it runs good,a great deal regardless of cosmetics.
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Except that's not a V50 III, looks like a II with III sidecovers and tank. The III didn't start until '81, so if that's a '79 then it's definitely a II. Not as peppy as the III - smaller valves and carbs, trouble prone Bosch electronic ignition. Front brake master cylinder under the tank, copying BMW.
Charlie, your eagle eye is priceless.
Is it possible that he's wrong about the year and it IS a III, or are there other telltales that indicate it isn't?
The Ambassador looks good overall, but there's no mention of whether the cylinders are still the original chrome plated bores. If they are, then figure another $900 to have the cylinders replated, new rings, and gaskets. More if you can't do your own work. The chrome bores commonly flake and the shards of chrome destroy the bearings, crank and oil pump if left go long enough.
Whether the bores have been replated will be the first question I ask. :thumb:
If not, that might explain why it seems to be on the low end of the market...
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Also found this nine-year-old thread. A good resource on the V50iii, which the first bike may not even be! :grin:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=76360.0
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The Bosch ignition on our 79 never has failed.Plenty of power for mountain roads and great handling and brakes.For the price,if it runs good,a great deal regardless of cosmetics.
TKelly, is your V50 a II?
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The Bosch ignition on our 79 never has failed.Plenty of power for mountain roads and great handling and brakes.For the price,if it runs good,a great deal regardless of cosmetics.
Consider yourself lucky. It's very common for the insulation on the wires from the pickups to the amplifiers to degrade causing running issues. Not to mention the advance "curve" is more like an abrupt spike at 4500 rpms.
Charlie, your eagle eye is priceless.
Is it possible that he's wrong about the year and it IS a III, or are there other telltales that indicate it isn't?
Dellorto VHB square slide carburetors vs. PHBH round slide on the III. Little plastic grills under the forward part of the tank hide the amplifier boxes. No master cylinder on the handlebars that I can see. Wrong seat for a III - flat without a step.
I agree that it's probably a good deal at that price, but it's always good to know exactly what you're buying.
Also found this nine-year-old thread. A good resource on the V50iii, which the first bike may not even be! :grin:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=76360.0
There's a lot of good info. in that thread.
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...I agree that it's probably a good deal at that price, but it's always good to know exactly what you're buying.
Wowzers!
So what I'm buying (maybe) is a II that somebody has masquerading as a III?
Maybe offer $1400 given the chicanery? (Not that I think the seller did it on purpose. The tank and sidecovers probably got switched decades ago...)
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Dellorto VHB square slide carburetors vs. PHBH round slide on the III. Little plastic grills under the forward part of the tank hide the amplifier boxes. No master cylinder on the handlebars that I can see. Wrong seat for a III - flat without a step.
Charlie, this gets weirder...
In comparing these two brochures:
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_more_topics_brochure_-_moto_guzzi_v50_ii.html
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_more_topics_brochure_-_moto_guzzi_v50_iii_-folded_style_brochure-.html
it looks like there's a III front end on the Facebook bike?!
I see vented discs and the caliper behind the fork leg (like the III) as opposed to solid discs and the caliper in front of the fork leg (like the II).
The front fender of the FB bike is also missing the support stay that the II fender has.
Whoa! It's a II.5! :grin:
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The Ambassador will be way more sturdy, I sure liked mine going across the Plains. The V50 is a fun bike, great for small roads. I would choose the one in the best mechanical condition.
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Consider yourself lucky. It's very common for the insulation on the wires from the pickups to the amplifiers to degrade causing running issues. Not to mention the advance "curve" is more like an abrupt spike at 4500 rpms.
There was a reason why they reverted to points in production - Guzzi had serious issues with their early electronic ignition systems.
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Wasn't the V50 a grenade? Something to do with the valves? I sorta remember Pete Roper talking me out of one for Jenn's for bike two decades ago?
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Wasn't the V50 a grenade? Something to do with the valves? I sorta remember Pete Roper talking me out of one for Jenn's for bike two decades ago?
You’re probably thinking about the Lario?
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You’re probably thinking about the Lario?
I definitely wasn't looking at a Lario for Jenn. But maybe I'm confusing why he thought it was a bomb.
Then again, he never really liked smallblocks all that much in the first place.
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Spoke to the Ambo seller this morning. Great conversation with a guy who owns sixteen Guzzis.
Essentially, he bought the bike cheap to help out a friend and is selling it cheap b/c he doesn't think it's ethical to make a killing under the circumstances.
The bike was almost completely restored ~6 years ago and has T3 jugs, so the cylinder problem is sorted. Bender harness, etc.
It is backfiring on one cylinder and the front turn signals are not attached. He's pretty certain that the backfire is a timing issue. Also mentioned that it could be points. (I think...?)
We made an appointment for me to look at it Sunday.
Thoughts?
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If it is a 79 it is a 2.
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Spoke to the Ambo seller this morning. Great conversation with a guy who owns sixteen Guzzis.
Essentially, he bought the bike cheap to help out a friend and is selling it cheap b/c he doesn't think it's ethical to make a killing under the circumstances.
The bike was almost completely restored ~6 years ago and has T3 jugs, so the cylinder problem is sorted. Bender harness, etc.
It is backfiring on one cylinder and the front turn signals are not attached. He's pretty certain that the backfire is a timing issue. Also mentioned that it could be points. (I think...?)
We made an appointment for me to look at it Sunday.
Thoughts?
I'm not an old bike guy but that IF that story is true it sounds like an ideal situation. What do you have to lose?
Hmmmm finally looked at it - Pending as of this morning. Damn that looks clean, that's the type of bike that could have made me dip my toes into something old for the hell of it.
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I would jump at it. Worst case you get your money back if you decide to sell on. Chances are you will keep it.
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I'm not an old bike guy but that IF that story is true it sounds like an ideal situation. What do you have to lose?
...Pending as of this morning.
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I agree.
And I'm glad to be the "pending" guy. :laugh:
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I don’t do Facebook so haven’t seen either bike but the Ambassador sounds like it’s the right one.
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...the Ambassador sounds like it’s the right one.
I think so.
The V50 seems to be a hybrid that's got some III parts grafted onto a II, while the Ambo has been passed between real Guzziphiles and restored properly? I wish it were running well, but with any luck it'll be an easy fix. Famous last words!!
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I don’t do Facebook so haven’t seen either bike but the Ambassador sounds like it’s the right one.
Same here. Backfiring could be a result of the points closing up. Easy enough to re-gap them.
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83mm T3 jugs were also chrome from the factory so that could still be an issue .If they are 88's then likely to be Nicasil Gillardonis which is what you want really.
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The fb link to ambassador isnt cooperating with me. But I saw that V50 at the meltdown (where the show pic was taken) on Saturday. He rode it in, Not a “bad” bike but it looks way better in those pics than in person. Owner/ Seller said he had it for a couple of months, still on a paper tag. I wouldn’t pay $1600 for it.
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...I saw that V50 at the meltdown (where the show pic was taken) on Saturday. He rode it in, Not a “bad” bike but it looks way better in those pics than in person. ...I wouldn’t pay $1600 for it.
Thanks. That's very helpful. Another tick in the Ambo's column...
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Wasn't the V50 a grenade? Something to do with the valves? I sorta remember Pete Roper talking me out of one for Jenn's for bike two decades ago?
V50 III and V65 used larger valves than the V50 and V50 II. There doesn't seem to be an issue with the valve failure on the V50 and V50 II, at least not nearly as much as the V50 III and V65.
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V50 III and V65 used larger valves than the V50 and V50 II. There doesn't seem to be an issue with the valve failure on the V50 and V50 II, at least not nearly as much as the V50 III and V65.
I'm feeling better and better that the V50 is no longer in consideration!
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83mm T3 jugs were also chrome from the factory so that could still be an issue .If they are 88's then likely to be Nicasil Gillardonis which is what you want really.
This ^^^. Unless the T3 cylinders were Gilardoni or replated originals, it's not a good fix. The T3 pistons are different - piston pin location 4 mm lower, so hopefully a) they didn't use the pistons too, or it will have super low compression, and b) if they used the Ambassador pistons, they match the cylinders (pistons and cylinders are "graded" A, B and C and should be matched).
Look between the two bottom-most cylinder fins and check for "GILARDONI" cast in. If nothing there, and if the seller will let you, remove a sparkplug, make sure the piston is down away from TDC, then insert a "pencil magnet" in through the plug hole and touch the cylinder wall. Zero magnetic attraction = chrome, very slight = Nikasil/Nigusil, strong = iron liners.
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This ^^^. Unless the T3 cylinders were Gilardoni or replated originals, it's not a good fix. The T3 pistons are different - piston pin location 4 mm lower, so hopefully a) they didn't use the pistons too, or it will have super low compression, and b) if they used the Ambassador pistons, they match the cylinders (pistons and cylinders are "graded" A, B and C and should be matched).
Look between the two bottom-most cylinder fins and check for "GILARDONI" cast in. If nothing there, and if the seller will let you, remove a sparkplug, make sure the piston is down away from TDC, then insert a "pencil magnet" in through the plug hole and touch the cylinder wall. Zero magnetic attraction = chrome, very slight = Nikasil/Nigusil, strong = iron liners.
Charlie, total noob stuff here...
Just to be sure I'm following along at home (and assuming that the Ambo in question was fitted with 88mm Gilardoni heads), am I correct that:
- Gilardoni makes 88mm aftermarket pistons with varying piston pin locations.
- I need to be sure that the correct pistons (with the Ambo-specific piston pin location) were installed in the 88mm heads.
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Charlie, total noob stuff here...
Just to be sure I'm following along at home (and assuming that the Ambo in question was fitted with 88mm Gilardoni heads), am I correct that:
- Gilardoni makes 88mm aftermarket pistons with varying piston pin locations.
- I need to be sure that the correct pistons (with the Ambo-specific piston pin location) were installed in the 88mm heads.
There are no "88 mm Gilardoni" (cylinder - not head) kits for Ambassador - never were. The 88 mm kits are for Eldorados, 850-Ts and T3s. They would not work on an Ambassador unless the crankshaft was swapped for one from an Eldorado. Possible, but not likely.
You wrote that the seller stated that "T3 cylinders" were used. Those have an 83 mm bore, not 88 mm. The stock Ambassador 83 mm pistons would work in those cylinders, but as I wrote earlier: "(hopefully) they match the cylinders (pistons and cylinders are "graded" A, B and C and should be matched)." If the T3 cylinders they used had chrome bores, then nothing has been gained - they will still need to be replaced. There are no Gilardoni (or other brand) cylinder kits for Ambassador available at this time, so replating is really the only option. Some would say that installing iron liners is another option, but that will cost just as much if not more than replating, and will not run as quiet or cool as replated cylinders.
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Thanks, Charlie. That's very helpful.
I'm hopeful the seller will be able to explain more specifically what's been done to remediate the chrome plating problem...
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I think you also need to take into account the spares availability for the V 50 II which honestly is not that good ...the small block cranks cannot be machined for oversized bearings as no such bearings exist officially for example.The Cam chain has been NLA for decades now and I do not think that there are substitutes available either.No Piston/barrel sets either,the bosch ignition system is NLA and the alternatives expensive.Small block Guzzi parts are often much more expensive than big bloc equivalents too.
There are of course specific Ambo parts that are NLA too but I suspect that there are more options to use adaptable parts on these than on the V 50 II .
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I think you also need to take into account the spares availability for the V 50 II which honestly is not that good ...
Thanks for this! Yet another reason to cross the V50 off the list.
Not sure about the Ambo at this point either. The seller is going to check with the PO about whether he's got any documentation of the refresh/restoration. If there's no record of what was done, I may have to walk away... :sad:
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To be completely frank... It sounds to me like you might be better off with a new/newish Royal Enfield, Guzzi V7 or V9, rather than an old Guzzi. Owners joke about Guzzis "making mechanics out of riders since 1921" and there is some truth to that. Wrenching on an old Guzzi isn't for everyone, it takes a lot of dedication, a certain degree of mechanical aptitude and a willingness to learn even more. I've been tinkering with stuff from a very young age, so old Guzzis are a natural fit for me, but they just aren't for some people.
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Thanks, Charlie. You may be right...
Does this give you (or anyone) enough confidence to move ahead?
About documentation of the work, the previous owner says:
"No paperwork. Bought them [850 cylinders] from a Guzzi guy in Maine online. He said they came off his running good 850T. He just wanted 1000cc kit. Valves, guides were bought new from MG Cycle. Valve job and guide installation was done at a local machine shop."
That doesn't tell me anything about whether the chrome plating of the donor cylinders was addressed...
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Thanks, Charlie. You may be right...
Does this give you (or anyone) enough confidence to move ahead?
About documentation of the work, the previous owner says:
"No paperwork. Bought them [850 cylinders] from a Guzzi guy in Maine online. He said they came off his running good 850T. He just wanted 1000cc kit. Valves, guides were bought new from MG Cycle. Valve job and guide installation was done at a local machine shop."
That doesn't tell me anything about whether the chrome plating of the donor cylinders was addressed...
Sure doesn't instill confidence in me. Sounds like they just swapped out obviously bad chrome cylinders for chrome cylinders that might not have been flaking yet. Lateral move, nothing gained. At least the heads were rebuilt.
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Where is this Ambo located? Maybe someone who knows Loops and what to look for can look at it for you?
-AJ
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Where is this Ambo located? Maybe someone who knows Loops and what to look for can look at it for you?
-AJ
It's in South Carolina, AJ.
Is there really a way to tell (by external examination) if the cylinders have been replated??
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It's in South Carolina, AJ.
Is there really a way to tell (by external examination) if the cylinders have been replated??
Replaced, yes. Replated, no. That's where the "magnet test" comes into play.
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Editing the post to get your thoughts comparing/contrasting these two bikes as a first Guzzi:
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Aaand the answer is: neither...
The V50 was a cobbled-together ii/iii with waning parts availability, etc.
The Ambo had too many unknowns as to the state of its cylinders and exactly what had happened during engine mods.
Onward!