Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Seweryn on September 17, 2024, 08:52:53 AM
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Hi All,
I am trying to properly balance the throttle bodies in my 1200 Sport.
After reading many guidelines I haven't found an answer to the question and I would appreciate your opinion:
When I finish setting up the idle speed vacuum balance by opening one of the air bypass screws (after ballancing the throttle bodies at speed - say at 3.5k rpm), should I ignore the missbalance just created off idle then? Do you ever re-check the ballance at speed (again) after the final adjustment with the air bypass screw?
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I understand your point and have often wondered that too. Do you notice a small alteration in the high speed after you’ve done the idle ?
I can’t see why you cannot just tweak the high speed again if necessary, then go back and look at the idle. I would think that the idle air bleed is so minuscule, that it has close to zero effect on the high speed reading, but for sure if you run through a second time, you are going to zero in on the right setting.
Don’t forget to reset the TPS.
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I understand your point and have often wondered that too. Do you notice a small alteration in the high speed after you’ve done the idle ?
I can’t see why you cannot just tweak the high speed again if necessary, then go back and look at the idle. I would think that the idle air bleed is so minuscule, that it has close to zero effect on the high speed reading, but for sure if you run through a second time, you are going to zero in on the right setting.
Don’t forget to reset the TPS.
Thanks,
Sure, I notice the alteration at higher speed after completing the idle balancing. I would then tweak the linkage screw to compensate for the changes. Not sure this is the correct procedure as no instruction explains it that way.
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It will make little to no difference to how the engine runs after you adjusted the air bleed to set idle balance, even if it seems to change the high-speed balance.
Do not "tweak" the bell-crank screw to change the high speed balance after the idle balance is done. If you do that, you must reset the TPS again. You're just chasing your tail.
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It will make little to no difference to how the engine runs after you adjusted the air bleed to set idle balance, even if it seems to change the high-speed balance.
Do not "tweak" the bell-crank screw to change the high speed balance after the idle balance is done. If you do that, you must reset the TPS again. You're just chasing your tail.
I’ll just add a bit to your comment G.O.D.
When you set the high speed first time, you are doing it with BOTH air bleeds closed and this is fine and correct.
Then if you set the air bleed (only one), you will make some small change to the high speed.
But.
If you then re set the high speed, (it should still be very close), you are doing it from a datum of (close to) correct, from the air bleed perspective.
At this point during the high speed adjustment), the air bleed is damn close to where it ought to be, so when you go back to re tweak it, there will be a relatively smaller adjustment required.
I’d do it…
Again make sure you DO NOT adjust the linkage length, only the appropriate adjusting screw.
Again re check the TPS and have a look at the CO setting if you’re chasing a nice idle.
I’d still like to do the balancing with the engine pulling some load @3,000 rpm versus in neutral as we currently do…
Simply because under load, the plate is open more and is representative of it’s position in real world conditions, but I’ll admit it doesn’t seem to matter.
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I’d still like to do the balancing with the engine pulling some load @3,000 rpm versus in neutral as we currently do…
Simply because under load, the plate is open more and is representative of it’s position in real world conditions, but I’ll admit it doesn’t seem to matter.
I was just planning to attach the vacuum gauges to the bike and do the test on the road under load for the above reason. Not sure it would make a massive difference, but handy for reading under various conditions.
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It will make little to no difference to how the engine runs after you adjusted the air bleed to set idle balance, even if it seems to change the high-speed balance.
Do not "tweak" the bell-crank screw to change the high speed balance after the idle balance is done. If you do that, you must reset the TPS again. You're just chasing your tail.
Yes, you are “chasing your tail”, but your tail is getting closer.
The second time you look at the high speed, the idle bleed is a lot closer to where it will ultimately need to sit, so the high speed is being set at “real world” conditions, then the final re tweak will get you the closest.
Also we need to be mindful of using the ambiguous term “bell crank screw…”
For those still finding their way, that could mean the adjusting screw located mid way between the TB’s or the “sacred screw…”
99.87% (but not all) of us, know that these are to be not touched..!
I resurrected an almost new set that had been molested grossly, by taking a dump time from a low pressure vessel into a known good one, then set the molested one to the same flow rate.
It worked very well, but was a LOT of messing around !
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I was just planning to attach the vacuum gauges to the bike and do the test on the road under load for the above reason. Not sure it would make a massive difference, but handy for reading under various conditions.
Bloody hell..!
I’ll be very keen to see if the readings are different, please report back. Good for you :bow: :thumb:
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Also we need to be mindful of using the ambiguous term “bell crank screw…”
For those still finding their way, that could mean the adjusting screw located mid way between the TB’s or the “sacred screw…”
99.87% (but not all) of us, know that these are to be not touched..!
It is not ambiguous. The 'bell crank' screw is the screw to adjust the balance. The 'sacred screw' is the throttle stop screw.
If this is too difficult to comprehend, you shouldn't be touching your throttle bodies.
Furthermore, all the faffing about chasing your tail trying to get your balance perfect will won't make a lick of real world difference when your riding.
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It is not ambiguous. The 'bell crank' screw is the screw to adjust the balance. The 'sacred screw' is the throttle stop screw.
If this is too difficult to comprehend, you shouldn't be touching your throttle bodies.
Furthermore, all the faffing about chasing your tail trying to get your balance perfect will won't make a lick of real world difference when your riding.
Well, there are a lot of things that we probably”shouldn’t be doing” but we develop skills through a lifetime of misadventure, ignoring advice and then taking it on, seeking the advice of known and respected persons and all that….
I said that I accept 98% of us know what we’re doing, but I’ll wager that we got that way by making errors, my point is that pointing out the possible source and location of where those potential trouble spots may reside.
Furthermore.
My second point was that if you perform the TB balance procedure as published, you’ll be “successful enough”, if you do nothing you’ll be successful enough if you’re prepared to accept mediocrity.
But it’s a non debatable point, that if you perform the first procedure then go back and finely adjust it, you’ll zero in closer to where you seek.
Do you need to…?
No
Will it take you closer to where you want to be..?
Yes.
Do you need someone else telling you the degree to which you should involve yourself with YOUR bike…?
Demonstrably not.
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Furthermore, all the faffing about chasing your tail trying to get your balance perfect will won't make a lick of real world difference when your riding.
It actually will make a difference if it makes you feel better. We both know that if Dr John himself came back from the grave and tuned your 1200 Sport within an inch of it’s life, it still will not go close to out performing it’s counterparts from Aprilia or Asia.
But that is not and never was the point, you would have a DR JOHN tuned bike and that’d be enough to make it worthwhile for some.
Do I go along with that ?
Again no.
But I’m not about saying what I would do, it’s about appreciating another’s motives and not talking down to them from a great height.
The guy just wants to know if he has a point…I think he has.
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Well, you've driven me off this forum before with your wanker shite, and congratulations you've done it again.
If any other members lap up your crap, I feel sorry for them.
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Thanks Guys,
I appreciate your opinions. After thinking about it again, I believe the difference under load (and wider open throttles) would be small enough not to worry about it. However, as my engine is not running the way I would like, I keep chasing better results the best I can. I will update when I manage to provide some imrovements.
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Well, you've driven me off this forum before with your wanker shite, and congratulations you've done it again.
If any other members lap up your crap, I feel sorry for them.
Ok..
‘Bye now.
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Hi All,
I am trying to properly balance the throttle bodies in my 1200 Sport.
After reading many guidelines I haven't found an answer to the question and I would appreciate your opinion:
When I finish setting up the idle speed vacuum balance by opening one of the air bypass screws (after ballancing the throttle bodies at speed - say at 3.5k rpm), should I ignore the missbalance just created off idle then? Do you ever re-check the ballance at speed (again) after the final adjustment with the air bypass screw?
It can't hurt, but is likely unnecessary. The Bellcrank adjuster balances the TBs at speed, the air bleeds are mostly IDLE. I've experimented with the air bleeds up to 1500RPM, and bellcrank from 1500-4500/5000, and found that I was chasing my tail, so stick with 4K and Idle.
You really need Guzzidiag to do this right. Mostly so you can reset the TPS and learning parameters (AKA fuel trims).
Here is my process from my notes.
1. Close both air bleeds on the TB's.
2. Connect Guzzi Diag and confirm it is communicating with the ECU. **Key on, kill switch in RUN.
3. Connect manometers to the manifold ports. ***If you have NOT deleted or disabled/blocked the Evap system, stick a golf tee or similar in the vacuum lines you removed from the ports on the TB's.
4. Start the motor and warm it up until it is close to 60*C as shown by Guzzidiag. **Test Stepper Motor and check over values while warming up.
5. Once warmed up, hold the engine speed at 3,500-4,000 RPM and use the screw on the bell crank that controls the linkage rod between the TB's to bring the TB's in balance. **DONT touch sacred screw!!
6. Once the high speed balance is equal or very close allow the throttle plates to fully close. AKA let it go to idle, snap the throttle open and closed a few times to make sure throttle plates and linkage settle. ***I check this several times to ensure any slop or variance is mitigated.
7. Kill the motor with the kill switch, (Not the key or Guzzidiag will disconnect and you'll have to reconnect).
8. Use the 'Re-set TPS' function in 'Actors'.
9. Use the 'Re-set parameters' function in actors.
10. Re-start the engine, blip the throttle a couple times and let it settle to idle.
11. Check the manometers and open the air bleed on the TB with highest vacuum until both are equal. Blip throttle again and readjust as necessary. Shut off motor, and turn ignition key off.
12. Unplug manometer and reinstall blanking plugs/vacuum line. Disconnect Guzzidiag and remove cables.
**A few other things. I do this AFTER a valve adjustment. I also spray a bit of carb cleaner or spray a little Seafoam into the stepper motor for good measure.
Also, When I deleted the Evap system, I connected the TB vacuum ports with a vacuum hose. This REALLY helps with balancing the intake side of things, much in the way the H pipe does in the exhaust. I noticed an improvement in a more stable and smoother idle. I have this on my 1200 Sport and old Norge. The Griso evap system is just plugged with ball bearings in the vacuum lines to the ports, and having the check valve disabled by running a drill bit through it. MI did this mod back when the bike was new with it's original owner. It runs great, and I have left it alone as I like the look with the Evap canister in place.
I've also found that over the years (9 with Griso, 4 with 1200 Sport) that once set, things really don't change. I 'check' mostly when I am bored, and find the balance remains spot on.
I've rarely gotten everything PERFECT, but mostly close.
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3. Connect manometers to the manifold ports. ***If you have NOT deleted or disabled/blocked the Evap system, stick a golf tee or similar in the vacuum lines you removed from the ports on the TB's.
Thanks Bulldog,
Do I assume correctly that the EVAP system is fitted to US spec. motors only?
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Thanks Bulldog,
Do I assume correctly that the EVAP system is fitted to US spec. motors only?
I really don't know, but I can't imagine EURO bikes having less pollution controls than the US.
The Evap system on the 1200 Sport/Breva/Norge runs from each throttle body and the fuel tank vents to a couple check valves and a charcoal canister under the rear seat at the back. The idea is to prevent any fumes from the gas tank escaping into the air. Most of the EVAP systems malfunction, usually the check valve. This causes pressure (positive and negative) in the fuel tank and can effect running.
Removing the canister gives you a nice bump in underseat storage, but some inspections mandate it is not removed.
(https://i.ibb.co/C7CRHLh/s-l1600.webp) (https://ibb.co/C7CRHLh)
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I really don't know, but I can't imagine EURO bikes having less pollution controls than the US.
The Evap system on the 1200 Sport/Breva/Norge runs from each throttle body and the fuel tank vents to a couple check valves and a charcoal canister under the rear seat at the back. The idea is to prevent any fumes from the gas tank escaping into the air. Most of the EVAP systems malfunction, usually the check valve. This causes pressure (positive and negative) in the fuel tank and can effect running.
Removing the canister gives you a nice bump in underseat storage, but some inspections mandate it is not removed.
Thanks, I don't think this is fitted to my bike, I have never noticed anything like it.
Also, there are no periodic inspections for motorcycles in the country.
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This video by Peter Roper was extremely helpful to me: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BDshMp-bM_0 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BDshMp-bM_0)
It doesn't talk about the "tail chasing" discussed here, but it gave me more confidence to get setup Guzzidiag, etc.
I think I found the link in a post in this forum, may have been from Huzo. Apologies for not giving proper mention, but to Mr. Roper :bow:
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Thanks,
I am familiar with how the throttle bodies work, but still worth listening to an experienced mechanic.
I ran the vacuum test on the road on Friday, then made final adjustments yesterday and now the engine runs a bit better. I have learnt that the stationary test as described in the manual and here by the experts is all you need to follow to achieve the optimal result. I believe that having the engine warmed up well is more important than other factors.
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Checked the TPS ?
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Checked the TPS ?
Yes, TPS reset done and self learning after that.
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Thanks, I don't think this is fitted to my bike, I have never noticed anything like it.
Also, there are no periodic inspections for motorcycles in the country.
If your bike has it, it will be at the rear of the bike under the seat, basically mounted above the rear fender. Removed, or without, it give a nice bump in underseat storage.
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If your bike has it, it will be at the rear of the bike under the seat, basically mounted above the rear fender. Removed, or without, it give a nice bump in underseat storage.
It must be installed in some markets then - I can store a can of tyre repair spray beside the battery and a few small items as well.
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It must be installed in some markets then - I can store a can of tyre repair spray beside the battery and a few small items as well.
All have the large area by the battery (which is great) the canister on US models is farther back right in front of the taillight under the seat.
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So, I'm hoping to jump in on this thread as I coincidently was just attempting to balance the throttle bodies on my 1200 sport for the first time. I believe that it has not been done before as the yellow paint was still on the screw, the bike only has 1500 miles on it. My concern is that the high speed adjustment required several turns out to be balanced. I was expecting it to be closer than that, as in a turn or two. The bike does seem to run smoother, but what do I know, I thought it ran good before...
Also, I did not touch the sacred screw and I did reset the tps.
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Sounds like success to me, congrats. Must be nice bike w/low miles. In turning more than 1/2 turn or so on big end I have had the idle increase a bit unless it was way off from factory. That does happen, that's why you have 1st service. Dealer can catch if it wasn't done on set-up.
Just reread which way you went, out is better than in w/adj, in too much moves the plate where you get increased idle.
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Less than 2.5k km from new? How is that possible and why? I drove more in the first week after buying the bike in July :laugh:.
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Do you know if the throttle bodies are interchangeable between the 1200 multivalve engines, i.e. Stelvio / 1200 Sport / Norge / Griso?
Part numbers:
976697 and 880270.
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When I had my B1100 I discovered that the ICV leaked if driven to the fully closed position
More one side than the other.
At 3k RPM this wasn't noticeable, but at idle it was and needed dialing out with one of the air bleed screws
Now, if you put a ICV isolating valve in the idle circuit, this issue goes away, and balance doesn't change between 3k and idle
As an aside a chap in NZ (can't remember his name) worked out that isolating the ICV gave a repeatable 1k drop in idle revs.
Now, this knowledge allows you a good chance to reset a sacred screw that has been messed with as it takes out a key variable.
I bought my B1100 with a futzed sacred screw before I knew that it was something to avoid, but this knowledge got it dialled back in pretty close
Method
1) isolate ICV
2) balance TBs
3) adjust idle using sacred screw to 1k below target
4) repeat 2 and 3 to be sure to be sure :azn:
Just something to ponder
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I need to have it explained to me what the idle stepper readouts are conveying.
This is the current status.
(https://i.ibb.co/qNH7dFK/IMG-4792.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qNH7dFK)
The bike is performing nicely, so I don’t suspect any gremlins are present, but I do note that stone cold startups require a bit longer than ideal crank time.
Can be up to 5 seconds, but from there on it’s just perfect. Could my stepper be “parked” in a condition that is allowing too much air (producing a leaner than optimal condition) and is this reflected in the display ?
IF this was the case, can I intervene safely and have the stepper park at a more closed setting ?
I have no clue on this topic, so any answers I (hopefully) get, will need to be pretty basic or I’ll get lost for sure.
Thanks in anticipation.
Huzo.
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There's lots written about sticky ICVs so it could be that, and it's worth noting that Ducati (which is where this was sourced from) went away to a different design
Also the perceived wisdom ist that the metal bodied (older) are not as good as thecplastic ones
But as a trial you can pinch off the inlet to the ICV and see if that helps before fitting a valve in line.
I found a stepper motor controller board on line and coupled that to a 5v USB power supply and the appropriate Ducati connector allowed me to stroke the valve over its full range.
That's how I worked out that it leaked
HTH
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I’m not suggesting that there’s any malfunction present, but I’d like to know what the numbers mean.
Is there anyone out there with a 2 VPC Norge like mine, that can show or tell me what numbers they get ?
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Thanks for the replies, very interesting.
I am trying to resolve the abrupt running off/on throttle between 4.7 (throttle closed) and about 5 degrees (throttle very little open) when driving in traffic and low rpm, engine braking, etc.
I have a modified fuel map installed, but that only helped a bit and I am trying to eliminate all other issues. I may try with blocking the inlet to the stepper and see if that helps. I think the issue is with too lean mixture to one or both cylinders between 4.6 and 5 deg. and (in my opinion) it is unlikely anything to do with the fuel map.
BTW, do you know the diameter of the rubber hose inlet of the step motor? I am thinking about running a rubber hose through a mechanical valve between the air filter housing and the stepper hose / inlet.
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BTW, do you know the diameter of the rubber hose inlet of the step motor? I am thinking about running a rubber hose through a mechanical valve between the air filter housing and the stepper hose / inlet.
Sorry it's 4 years since I played with a B1100 but I think it was 8mm
If anyone is interested as best I can tell from my 2019 Ebay history, the bits for the circuit to stroke the valve is
Stepper motor controller Ebay:- 294651017040
Ducati connector Ebay:- 192918850805
USB power:- chop the tail off a wired mouse :wink:
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Here’s how my new mercury manometer went. https://youtube.com/shorts/um5MnfzZXUg?si=eDkFGg0qmC53yrws
I went ahead and did the rest of the procedure as required.
Suffice to say that this open loop one works better than the previous closed loop effort.
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I ran a test at the weekend by installing a valve on the inlet hose to the stepper. The bike ran a lot worse and was difficult to control on cold engine, so I abandoned the idea.
I am not sure what it is when the bike runs not great (it sometimes runs just as you would expect). I am trying to trace the issue, but running out of ideas. The engine does not pick up smoothly from the closed throttle position to a very little open position (5 - 6 degrees). When I slowly open the throttle from idle, there is no reaction / hesitation until about 5+ degrees of opening angle and then the engine surges a little. On the road there is a clutch action required often at roundabouts and junctions to compansate for that.
I connected GuzziDiag yesterday to see if the TPS reads the minor changes at low opening angles and it seems to be OK. There can't be many other issues (a bit of play on the throttle shaft?), but I understand the sensitivity of the throttle control system.
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I ran a test at the weekend by installing a valve on the inlet hose to the stepper. The bike ran a lot worse and was difficult to control on cold engine, so I abandoned the idea.
I am not sure what it is when the bike runs not great (it sometimes runs just as you would expect). I am trying to trace the issue, but running out of ideas. The engine does not pick up smoothly from the closed throttle position to a very little open position (5 - 6 degrees). When I slowly open the throttle from idle, there is no reaction / hesitation until about 5+ degrees of opening angle and then the engine surges a little. On the road there is a clutch action required often at roundabouts and junctions to compansate for that.
I connected GuzziDiag yesterday to see if the TPS reads the minor changes at low opening angles and it seems to be OK. There can't be many other issues (a bit of play on the throttle shaft?), but I understand the sensitivity of the throttle control system.
Can you take a shot of this page on Guzzidiag ?
(https://i.ibb.co/fHrYDwy/IMG-4792.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fHrYDwy)<br /
I’ll be interested to see the comparison.
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Can you take a shot of this page on Guzzidiag ?
I’ll be interested to see the comparison.
(https://ibb.co/fHrYDwy)
Yes, I am sure I can do later this evening. The engine is off I see, but warmed up. My CO Trim is at 0, do you need that changed to 10?
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Yes, I am sure I can do later this evening. The engine is off I see, but warmed up. My CO Trim is at 0, do you need that changed to 10?
I hadn’t noticed on the status bar, but it says clutch pulled and that’s not the case.
Can’t explain that one.
As for the CO trim number, I’m told that each increment adds one microsecond (or something similar), to the injector pulse width, I don’t know if that helps the cold start mixture or not, but there it is anyway…
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Here are the screenshots:
(https://i.ibb.co/6r04XPb/Trim-0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6r04XPb)
(https://i.ibb.co/k5yHgQf/Trim-10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k5yHgQf)
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Ok .
I notice there are a few differences in some of the details. Can these be explained ?
Mine.
(https://i.ibb.co/7gpPjYk/IMG-4800.png) (https://ibb.co/7gpPjYk)
Yours
(https://i.ibb.co/DgffhZr/IMG-4801.png) (https://ibb.co/DgffhZr)
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Is your engine 2 valve?
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Is your engine 2 valve?
Yes, ‘07 2 VPC
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Yes, ‘07 2 VPC
That may explain the differences.
BTW, I am using a custom fuel map.
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That may explain the differences.
BTW, I am using a custom fuel map.
Yes ok, point taken on the 2VPC / 4 VPC thing.
My map is also non standard, Beetle.
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Do you know where to source a bushing and seal rebuild kit for the throttle bodies? I don't believe I can improve things further unless I eliminate the play in the throttle shafts.
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The bushes would probably be something you could make, but the wear on the shafts would be a problem.
They’d need to be precision ground.
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I have just inspected the valvetrain and found that the left cylinder inlet valves were both loose - I guess they were at 0.3 - 0.4 mm. The rest of them were more / less OK. I then ran the vacuum test and found that I needed to correct the high rpm ballance by almost third of the turn of the screw (clockwise) for the vacuum balance. Does that seem right? It means that I now need to increase the opening angle of the right cylinder throttle by about 0.5 degree (roughly measured with Guzzi Diag). Then to compensate for the idle I will need to open the left cylinder bypass screw (currently both are closed). It all means there will be more air getting into the engine at idle. I started the balancing work yesterday but didn't finish yet as the correction values were surprisingly high to make it in balance, so I had to sleep with all this in my head.
Your valuable comments would be appreciated.
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Sounds correct, adjust bypass on one to make columns level at idle.
Huzo may be sleeping being in Australia.
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Again Seweryn, it’s sounding more complex than it is.
Close the bleeds.
Run up to 3,000 rpm.
Adjust the CORRECT screw to match the manifold depressions.
Close the throttle.
Open the appropriate idle bleed to get idle depressions balanced.
Set the TPS with Guzzidiag.
Open and snap shut the throttle.
Re check TPS.
There won’t be “more air at idle” under normal circumstances, because the stepper will move to manipulate the air/fuel ratio to achieve 1150 rpm.
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I then ran the vacuum test and found that I needed to correct the high rpm ballance by almost third of the turn of the screw (clockwise) for the vacuum balance. Does that seem right? It means that I now need to increase the opening angle of the right cylinder throttle by about 0.5 degree (roughly measured with Guzzi Diag).
This part of your statement is what I find a bit awkward.
When you move the balance screw, you are moving the right throttle, to balance it with the left.
It is the left plate that has the throttle stop (do not touch this one…)
Once you have tweaked the adjustment screw to balance the throttles, you have to re set the TPS with Guzzidiag.
This is to “tell” the brain in the bike what 4.6-4.7 degrees looks like.The bike does not know what 4.6 degrees is, it just knows that you have nominated it’s closed position as 4.6 degrees. It just says..”oh ok then, I’ll take my readings from that point…”
Remember your TPS is on the RIGHT TB, the throttle stop is on the left.
If you follow the procedure, you do not have to reason it out too much.
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Thanks Huzo,
I understand all the procedures and had set the throttle balance before. I was just surprised that the valve clearance made a noticeable difference to the vacuum - finally about 1/4 turn was the correction I had to make.
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Thanks Huzo,
I understand all the procedures and had set the throttle balance before. I was just surprised that the valve clearance made a noticeable difference to the vacuum - finally about 1/4 turn was the correction I had to make.
Yes S.
Roper is all over that one. I guess you could make the case that any alteration in valve clearances makes a discernible change in gas volume and therefore cylinder pressure.
That’s gunna’ alter your depressions on the manometer and be recognised as an imbalance.
Touche’ Sir…
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Hi All,
Would it be possible to identify if my engine was converted to rollers from these photographs?
(https://i.ibb.co/9md85LH8/Roll1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9md85LH8)
(https://i.ibb.co/chx1929W/Roll2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/chx1929W)
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Probably as you have the revised earth tang & second pic looks rollerish to me (although bad camera angle). Here's what you are looking for
(https://i.ibb.co/Zq9mnpF/tappets-roller.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zq9mnpF)
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The bottom pic you can see the roller on bottom of fork. you got rollers.
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9. Use the 'Re-set parameters' function in actors.
As I understand it, resetting the Autolearning Parameters is only necessary after a remap.
After a TB Balance/Sync, all that needs resetting is the TPS, due to the TPS sensor being on the R/H TB.
If the Sensor were on the L/H TB, you wouldn't need to reset it.
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But Tris, the sacred screw never has and never will be, there to set the idle. The stepper is there to adjust the fuel/air mixture to set the idle to the target value of 1150 or so…
The TB will never be correct until you can adjust the sacred screw to match the flow rate set ex factory.
I have brought a set back that were monumentally molested, by attaching a known good one to an air reservoir and timing a dump using a manometer between two arbitrary limits.
I recorded a dump time of 20 seconds on a control unit, then adjusted my rooted one to reflect the new value.
You do not need to know what the flow rate is in litres/minute, just that it is the same as the factory one.This is the principle. https://youtube.com/shorts/NGHMAry4iks?si=tAJjtAJwDdP44oFZ
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Do you know where to source a bushing and seal rebuild kit for the throttle bodies? I don't believe I can improve things further unless I eliminate the play in the throttle shafts.
There is no such thing I'm afraid.
I have read/heard of a couple of owners doing a re-bush (or at least getting it done by someone), but I've yet to find out the details.
To be correct, it's not a re-bush, as the Throttle Plate Shafts just turn in the Throttle Bodies, there are no Bushes.
The fix is to machine out the TBs and fit Bushes.
I very much doubt the Shafts would wear, they'll be much harder than the soft Alloy of the TBs.
Any appreciable wear will let air into the Intakes, making TB Balance a lot more difficult to get consistent results from.
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I have tried another trick as I couldn't get rid of the abruptness - the engine hesitates between 4.6 (fully closed) and 5+ deg. of the throttle opening angle. The engine jumps the revs to about 2k rpm from 1.2k on idle when very gently increasing the throttle opening angle.
I thought the issue must be caused by too lean mixture on idle / just off idle, so I tried what was mentioned elsewhere on the forum - I sprayed some silicone lubricant into the stepper inlet today and I noticed the improvement - much smoother throttle response from off position without the jerkiness.
What do you think - is it temporary improvement or will the stepper function OK from now? Did anyone get the problem resolved this way?
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You can look at a graph in real time as you open the throttle therefore deflecting the plates.
That will show you if the TPS is tracking correctly.
Guzzidiag has this feature.
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Thanks Huzo,
I had a look at this and found no malfunction in the TPS.
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What does your manometer say at the point where the anomaly is ?
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What does your manometer say at the point where the anomaly is ?
It is more / less in balance. And by observing the linkage it seems that both throttles open together. I believe the issue is in the stepper which delivers too much extra air - it is noticable only at very low throttle opening angle. At that point the extra air leans the mixture to the point that it can't ignite. The lubricant cured the symptoms yesterday, but I am not sure will that last long.
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Mmmm…
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Well, I am sure time will tell, but I hope the symptoms never return. I was happy enough yesterday to at least know what is causing the jerkiness after working on the issue for the last few months. Not a cheap part if needs to be replaced, but will see.
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Do you know if the stepper motor (the plastic one) is the very same model used for all 4V / cyl. engines (or all 1200 engines)? I have installed a second hand set of throttle bodies complete with the stepper and it seems the thing is probably faulty as the idle doesn't go lower than 1,400 - 2,000 rpm. The important screws are untouched and I have done the balancing and TPS reset, etc.
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Stepper is same on all Guzzi's 2V & 4V, 1200 & 1100. If you pinch off air does it return to normal idle? It may be dirty.
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Thanks Steve,
I will test the airline this evening by blocking the supply (I have a temporary cut off valve I used before, so may install it this time). I just have a bad feeling the stepper is not functiong, but maybe cleaning will help. I will update.
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So after installing the manual air inlet restriction valve and blocking the air supply to the stepper, the engine idle speed is about 1300 rpm. I don't understand why. The TPS was re-set and sits at 4.6 degree as of yesterday. The bypass air screws are closed with one half turn open. If the bypass air lines are blocked it means the ECU injects too much fuel probably. Any ideas?
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My cell is +61437070946
Text me yours and I’ll explain. Idle speed is increased by leaning idle mixture (addition of air)
You possibly have an air leak.
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Thanks Huzo, I have messaged you on that number. Appreciate your reply.
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Someone recently posted on the **Griso ghetto having successfully found a generic replacement for the stepper motor. I’ll try to find the link and post it here.
Here it is: https://www.grisoghetto.com/t7715-lilian-tech-stepper-repair-easy-to-find-and-money-saving-automotive-part (https://www.grisoghetto.com/t7715-lilian-tech-stepper-repair-easy-to-find-and-money-saving-automotive-part)
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Here is my other theory of the problem - the new stepper is faulty and stays in open position, which means the air can flow between the two inlet manifolds.
When doing the balancing I remember I had to open the right throttle a good bit (balancing screw about a half - one full turn clockwise direction), which means the engine gets more air delivered and that is impossible to compensate down...
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Just re-read the thread.
I've had two 8V Norge (2014 & 2012) a 1200 Sport, and 1100 Griso. I no longer have the 2014 Norge, but the other three suffer under my ownership :cool:
I've TB balanced all, cleaned the Stepper on all, and done all the variations. The biggest change or help with the abrupt throttle response (low speed snatchy throttle response) was to eliminate slack from the throttle cables on the push and pull. On the Griso specifically, the Beetle Map slowed down initial throttle response. This made a huge difference.
When it comes to the evap systems and TB air ports (where you connect the manometer), I have 3 different setups.
1. Griso - System left in place with ball bearings stuffed in each of the lines going to the TBs with the check valve disabled. This basically allows the tank to vent/breathe to atmosphere through the charcoal canister.
2. 1200 Sport - System completely removed and the TB air ports are connected with a vacuum line. This acts almost the same as an exhaust crossover balancing the intake charge. The tank vents/breathes to atmosphere to lines at the bottom of the motor near the airbox oil bleed tube and gas overflow hose.
3. 2012 Norge - Completely Stock.
On the 2014 Norge, I removed the system to try and fix a running issue (wouldnt rev past 6K. This ended up being a cam being out of sync). When trying to sort this, I removed the evap system and plugged the TB air ports with rubber caps. They started leaking and really messed with the running with symptoms similar to yours. I ended up connecting the ports with a vacuum hose and clamped tight with ottiger clamps and the stumble, low speed issues and lumpy idle disappeared.
So at a minimum, check to make sure your TB air ports are sealed. Hope this helps!
FWIW, I use the Seafoam upper cylinder spray cleaner to clean the stepper. I spray a bunch while running, then spray and shut off to let sit for a while, overnight preferred. Then I restart, respray, hook up GD and cycle the Stepper Actor to get it to cycle. The result has been flawless stepper function.
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I have just inspected the valvetrain and found that the left cylinder inlet valves were both loose - I guess they were at 0.3 - 0.4 mm. The rest of them were more / less OK. I then ran the vacuum test and found that I needed to correct the high rpm ballance by almost third of the turn of the screw (clockwise) for the vacuum balance. Does that seem right? It means that I now need to increase the opening angle of the right cylinder throttle by about 0.5 degree (roughly measured with Guzzi Diag). Then to compensate for the idle I will need to open the left cylinder bypass screw (currently both are closed). It all means there will be more air getting into the engine at idle. I started the balancing work yesterday but didn't finish yet as the correction values were surprisingly high to make it in balance, so I had to sleep with all this in my head.
Your valuable comments would be appreciated.
This point is obvious but too often missed in the discussions of balancing TBs- it's not hard to visualize how vacuum is affected by the intake valve opening time. A couple thousandths makes a big difference. A proper valve adjustment should always precede a balance.
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I have checked the balance again and ended up in more less the same place. The engine runs rather well when cruising and is even a little smoother at low throttle opening angles, there are no obvious vacuum leaks, but it idles at near 1400 rpm (or just over 1300 with the inlet to the stepper completely blocked using a shut off valve - which means the stepper works OK).
The important screw looks factory intact, but what do you think - should i try to alter the position of the special screw? I believe that should help setting the idle speed to 1200 rpm, but I wanted to eliminate any other potential installation error with this new set of throttle bodies, but all seems to be OK apart from the elevated idle speed, which I believe is caused by the higher air flow through the throttle bodies. Just my theory, but I would welcome your comments.
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I have checked the balance again and ended up in more less the same place. The engine runs rather well when cruising and is even a little smoother at low throttle opening angles, there are no obvious vacuum leaks, but it idles at near 1400 rpm (or just over 1300 with the inlet to the stepper completely blocked using a shut off valve - which means the stepper works OK).
The important screw looks factory intact, but what do you think - should i try to alter the position of the special screw? I believe that should help setting the idle speed to 1200 rpm, but I wanted to eliminate any other potential installation error with this new set of throttle bodies, but all seems to be OK apart from the elevated idle speed, which I believe is caused by the higher air flow through the throttle bodies. Just my theory, but I would welcome your comments.
Sorry mate but my ‘phone dropped out of range..(Central Australia).
Even if you do adjust the sacred screw, a properly functioning stepper will just re set to achieve the target value and you are on the road to ruin…
Have you properly re seated the screws in the intake manifolds after disconnecting your balance tool ?
What was the damage to your original throttle bodies ?
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No worries P., thanks for calling, it's great to have a chat anyway.
There was no damage to the original throttle bodies (there is now). I replaced them, because of the faulty stepper that I managed to damage.
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No worries P., thanks for calling, it's great to have a chat anyway.
There was no damage to the original throttle bodies (there is now). I replaced them, because of the faulty stepper that I managed to damage.
Are the originals irredemably buggered ?
What happened to them ?
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Unfortunately, yes. There was no TPS in the new set so I had to cut the outer casing to salvage the old TPS to fit it into the new set.
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Unfortunately, yes. There was no TPS in the new set so I had to cut the outer casing to salvage the old TPS to fit it into the new set.
Hmmm….
Are you certain that the “new set” are not for a 1200 Sport (larger bore) or an earlier 2VPC Norge or similar ?
If they are not a proper match, then the mixture and all the commands to the ECU will be monumentally unreliable. They need to be removed and the bore accurately measured at the cylinder end.
The 1200 4 VPC Sports and the like, are a quite different size to the earlier Norges and such.
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That's interesting. I thought the throttle bodies for 2V motors are slightly different with the bypass air screws in a different location.
My model is the 1200 Sport 4V and should have the latest throttle bodies. I have measured the old set removed from the engine and the throttles are 50 mm. The new replacement I bought on eBay was described as for a Norge 1200 GT 2011+. I haven't checked the diameters yet as this would require some dismantling, but I don't believe they would be any different or smaller?
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So just a quick update. The bike now runs well with the air damper (cut off valve, but left in the open position) in the air inlet pipe to the stepper. But without the damper it it's very jerky off/on throttle at lower rpm, which suggests too much air getting into the engine. Stepper works OK. After checking all I could think of and re-balancing the throttle bodies again the only conclusion I have is that the throttle stop screw (never to be touched) is slightly off the correct position, although it hasn't been altered from the factory. The idle speed is around 1300 - 1400 rpm on hot engine, running good.
Another observation - there is no bad (unburned petrol) fume smell on idle as it was when running with the old original throttle bodies. That means the mixture is leaner which supports my theory above.
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You might try taking the stepper off with the two black TB supply hoses attached and after blocking them off, submerge the stepper in water, supply low pressure air from a source (compressor) via the central supply hose and see if bubbles come from the stepper body.
This would test for any potential leakage points in the stepper body or plumbing.
Remove the TPS first… :rolleyes: