Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Haioku_Mantan on April 08, 2025, 10:41:06 AM
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Hi all,
Been checking through multiple websites trying to find some info on how to lighten the hydraulic clutch on my '07 Norge and most of it either points to swapping out the clutch to a Brembo RCS 19 ($$$) or emailing Todd at GuzziTech (who hasn't replied).
Has anyone swapped out their unit for a newer model clutch cylinder or is there a mod kit available?
The clutch itself works fine, will be taking the lever apart and re-greasing everything this weekend as well as flushing it and see how that goes but the bike was pretty well taken care of by its previous owner. Its just the stop and go traffic here in Singapore is murder on the hands.
Regards,
W.
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I did RCS16 & RCS19 MC kits incl plastic reservoirs but as you say it isn't cheap .....it has some reduction in effort (in exchange for more travel required to disengage clutch....brakes are fantastic). Some in Griso Ghetto have tried a replacement OBERON clutch slave (approx 90 GBP I think) down at the back of gearbox and say there is reduction in effort.
Beyond that you could change the clutch (that really isn't cheap) for a cal 1400 clutch that is apparently lighter pull.
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I can’t see how the quality of fluid should matter, but the Norges absolutely destroy the fluid in the clutch circuit.
I change mine every 10,000 km and it really needs new stuff at that point. My Norge is an ‘07 and the lever pull is quite light, just go through the circuit and clean /grease as you say and replace/bleed the fluid.
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Yeah like @Huzo suggests, it likely is something else besides the hydraulics. My Norge is an 08, and I got it with well over 30K on the odometer. Clutch isn’t what I’d call “heavy” nor is the lever pull “high effort” I have an Aprilia Mille R that meets those descriptions and has been that way from new.
I’d start at the lever pivot as I noted mine was quite worn. It’s pretty much the same as on my S2R. The wear can cause things to bind as will lack of lubrication. I recently bled new fluid into my clutch because it felt weird. Fluid came out nearly black in color. New fluid made a difference in how smoothly everything felt I operation, but it made zero difference on lever effort.
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If GTM doesn't contact there is this place I get some things------------------------
https://www.bellissimoto.com/
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Heavy pull or light pull is an arbitrary thing.
If all components are working properly, the only way to lighten the pull is to change the hydraulic ratio. It is basically changing the mechanical advantage. You'll have to do a little investigating. It boils down to decreasing the master cylinder diameter and/or increasing the slave cylinder diameter. But the volume of fluid put out by the master cylinder stroke (1 pull of the lever) has to be enough to dis-engage the clutch.
I went through this a few years ago on my other bike. I went from a 14 mm to a 1/2" dia. (12.7 mm) clutch master cylinder and increased the dia. of the slave from 35.5 mm to 38 mm. Luckily the M.C. is a stock Honda part and the Oberon S.C. was designed to fit several different models with the same mounting bolt pattern. I think I could go smaller on the M.C. dia. but couldn't find a stock one.
Good luck on your endeavor!
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That distance from the pivot point to the actuating pin is relevant too.
In any case, the Norge is not noted for a heavy clutch pull, there’s something needing attention.
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I have never ridden a Norge but I had an Audace with a hydraulic clutch. It was as light as a feather compared to the Harley I had previously.
In stop and go traffic I had to shift to neutral often due to the pain in my wrist. I would suspect the Norge would be similar to my Audace and V100, both of which have been fine.
kk
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I used my 07 Norge as a NYC commuter bike for quite a few years and did not find the clutch pull to be particularly difficult compare to my other Guzzi's in city traffic. In fact the engagement point of the clutch requires a shorter pull of the clutch lever compared to my other non-hydraulic bikes. As Huzo says, something else must be wrong.
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That distance from the pivot point to the actuating pin is relevant too.
In any case, the Norge is not noted for a heavy clutch pull, there’s something needing attention.
Hand size is also a factor.
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49,000 miles on my 07 Norge and it is smooth... Now if ya talkin Laverda>>That is hard clutch pull.
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Thanks all for the replies.
I've got the motion pro speed bleeder coming and some Brembo Dot4 fluid so I'll try flushing the entire system.
Agree that a hydraulic clutch should be feather light - had a KTM 640 with a Magura clutch that was butter smooth.
Will report back!
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The Norge has absolutely no hard clutch if we speak in a relative sense of the torque that its clutch has to handle. If the system is in order as hydraulics and mechanics, the effort depends only on the size of the piston / actuator. You have to move a certain amount of fluid, so, as already said, to reduce the effort you have to reduce the size of the master cylinder and / or increase that of the actuator for the same lever arm. Of course you will heve lesse effort but more stroke.
The black color in the fluid is due to the defective gasket of the old originale actuator that disintegrates over time. Change it with the latest version created by Guzzi and you will no longer have the problem.
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You don't need a bleeder, you can just flush through from one end to the other, conveniently located under the seat, until you are pumping through clear fluid.
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The black color in the fluid is due to the defective gasket of the old originale actuator that disintegrates over time. Change it with the latest version created by Guzzi and you will no longer have the problem.
Now THAT….I did not know…
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there is always something to learn :laugh:
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there is always something to learn :laugh:
Well not now there isn’t…
That was the last actual thing that I didn’t know, so now I know everything… :thumb:
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Adding a Speed Bleeder to the clutch cable under the seat, makes bleeding a 3 or 4 pump process. Much easier than dealing with the old style wrench/close/open process.
The Norge clutch isn't feather light, but it's light enough. In a scale of effort:
V11 Scura - EXTREMELY light
Honda Goldwing - light
Norge - medium light
Griso - medium
Flushing the fluid every couple of years is a great idea...also check that your top screws on the top of the cylinder are tight, but not over tightened to avoid any air intake.
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Adding a Speed Bleeder to the clutch cable under the seat, makes bleeding a 3 or 4 pump process. Much easier than dealing with the old style wrench/close/open process.
The Norge clutch isn't feather light, but it's light enough. In a scale of effort:
V11 Scura - EXTREMELY light
Honda Goldwing - light
Norge - medium light
Griso - medium
Flushing the fluid every couple of years is a great idea...also check that your top screws on the top of the cylinder are tight, but not over tightened to avoid any air intake.
What cylinder are you referring to ?
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What cylinder are you referring to ?
(https://i.ibb.co/TxTMT9kC/IMG-1281.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TxTMT9kC)
The one on your handlebars.
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The Norge has absolutely no hard clutch if we speak in a relative sense of the torque that its clutch has to handle. If the system is in order as hydraulics and mechanics, the effort depends only on the size of the piston / actuator. You have to move a certain amount of fluid, so, as already said, to reduce the effort you have to reduce the size of the master cylinder and / or increase that of the actuator for the same lever arm. Of course you will heve lesse effort but more stroke.
The black color in the fluid is due to the defective gasket of the old originale actuator that disintegrates over time. Change it with the latest version created by Guzzi and you will no longer have the problem.
Is this the gasket on top of the master cylinder where you top up the fluid?
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Is this the gasket on top of the master cylinder where you top up the fluid?
Can you ask the question a different way ?
Do you mean..
“Is there a gasket on top of the master cylinder…”
Then, yes.
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Is this the gasket on top of the master cylinder where you top up the fluid?
If you still have the original clutch actuator 978739, it is likely that the clutch fluid will get dirty after a few kilometers due to the poor quality of the piston gasket. Replace the actuator with 85220R and the fluid will no longer become black.
I thought this was something already known. I read about it in some forums and verified it in person a couple years ago. The actuator costs less than 50€.
https://motoguzzi.ricambi-moto-scooter.com/moto-guzzi-moto/1200-MOTO-GUZZI-MOTORCYCLES/NORGE/2007/Norge-IE/MOTORE/Frizione-monodisco/400/60/365001922/916 (https://motoguzzi.ricambi-moto-scooter.com/moto-guzzi-moto/1200-MOTO-GUZZI-MOTORCYCLES/NORGE/2007/Norge-IE/MOTORE/Frizione-monodisco/400/60/365001922/916)
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If you still have the original clutch actuator 978739, it is likely that the clutch fluid will get dirty after a few kilometers due to the poor quality of the piston gasket. Replace the actuator with 85220R and the fluid will no longer become black.
I thought this was something already known. I read about it in some forums and verified it in person a couple years ago. The actuator costs less than 50€.
https://motoguzzi.ricambi-moto-scooter.com/moto-guzzi-moto/1200-MOTO-GUZZI-MOTORCYCLES/NORGE/2007/Norge-IE/MOTORE/Frizione-monodisco/400/60/365001922/916 (https://motoguzzi.ricambi-moto-scooter.com/moto-guzzi-moto/1200-MOTO-GUZZI-MOTORCYCLES/NORGE/2007/Norge-IE/MOTORE/Frizione-monodisco/400/60/365001922/916)
You learn something new everyday. Many thanks for this.
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If you still have the original clutch actuator 978739, it is likely that the clutch fluid will get dirty after a few kilometers due to the poor quality of the piston gasket. Replace the actuator with 85220R and the fluid will no longer become black.
I thought this was something already known. I read about it in some forums and verified it in person a couple years ago. The actuator costs less than 50€.
https://motoguzzi.ricambi-moto-scooter.com/moto-guzzi-moto/1200-MOTO-GUZZI-MOTORCYCLES/NORGE/2007/Norge-IE/MOTORE/Frizione-monodisco/400/60/365001922/916 (https://motoguzzi.ricambi-moto-scooter.com/moto-guzzi-moto/1200-MOTO-GUZZI-MOTORCYCLES/NORGE/2007/Norge-IE/MOTORE/Frizione-monodisco/400/60/365001922/916)
You learn something new everyday. Many thanks for this.
I was hoping it would be at the handlebars too. Looks like it's at the rear of the engine.
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(https://i.ibb.co/xKCVgCqF/lever-pin.png) (https://ibb.co/xKCVgCqF)
Might be a dumb question but does the lever pin (GU03604845) just slide out after taking off the nylon nut? Or is it also screwed into the bottom of the cylinder bracket?
Have tried to remove it with a flat screwdriver but its totally seized and wanted to knock it out with a flat punch and hammer but don't want to strip it.
Regards,
W.
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Might be a dumb question but does the lever pin (GU03604845) just slide out after taking off the nylon nut? Or is it also screwed into the bottom of the cylinder bracket?
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This could be the cause of your heavy clutch. The Nyloc nut is only there as a safety measure - the pivot bolt is what governs the play and pressure/grip on the lever. If it's seized then it's also likely over-tightened. Copious quantities of Plusgas/WD-40 between the lever and brackets, and/or careful application of heat on the underside of the clutch bracket (goodbye paint!). If heating, remove the clutch switch first.
HTH
Addendum
I use my largest flat head screwdriver for these bolts, mainly to help protect the slot, though with a side effect of providing heaps of leverage. At a push and if careful, try using a manual impact driver without hammering it: the extra diameter gives loads of purchase.
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That screw is only supposed to be screwed in to just snug. Too tight and the lever will bind on the bracket. The nut underneath is there to keep the screw from coming loose. It might be locked in by corrosion but it sounds like it was screwed in way too tight. Heat will most likely be your best friend but remove any switches etc first. When I worked in the aircraft shop tearing down engines a heat gun was always close by my side, I wore out a few.
kk
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^Did I not just say all that? :rolleyes:
..writes on blackboard 100 times:
"Need to use 'murican turn of phrase and slang. D'oh!"
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Tried heat, tried a t-bar with the largest flat blade I could find and its definitely not coming out.
Could be the culprit of the heavy lever action.
At a loss now what to do as that clutch lever pin does not want to come out.
The gap is way too thin for a saw blade or cutting disc - might have to drill out the screw and bit and try a reverse bit/screw extractor on an impact driver to see if that will make it come loose.
Only problem is, besides the semi-heavy action it works. Don't want to destroy the clutch assembly just for that screw.
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At a loss now what to do as that clutch lever pin does not want to come out.
I feel your pain.
Are you doing this with the assembly fitted on the 'bars? Reckon you've gotta remove the assembly now, if not already. Leave inverted, with Plusgas on the threaded portion for a day, or two. Try to squirt a little between lever and perch too, for good measure. Reassemble on the 'bars (for more purchase, or a large vice may suffice), then try to loosen again. The Plusgas tends to be really effective and worth persevering with - I think that I'll try XCP One, when the Plusgas runs out.
Say goodbye to the pin...
For drilling out, I'd go from the underside (threaded side), then a reverse drill will not be required. Drill at least as deep as where the thread goes through the perch. Gradually increase drill size until just below the diameter of the thread - it's gotta be looser at that stage! Worst case scenario is the perch thread will be knackered but that's not a major issue, given the use of the nylon locking nut. The clutch lever may 'rattle' a bit from being too loose, though could be shimmed.
Just trying to help and others may have better plans.
:popcorn:
P.S. If it's any consolation, I currently have a similar issue on the Breva, with the pivot pin at the opposite end of the cable! It's seized on the clutch arm and pivoting on the casing instead. I'm trying to keep my cool/patience :rolleyes:
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Really the problem should be easy to dial into.
If you are not sure where the binding is coming from, just undo the banjo at the clutch m/c, thus removing any possible causes further down the line and isolating the lever mechanism.
That’ll tell you…
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.. just undo the banjo at the clutch m/c ..
After draining the brake clutch fluid! :tongue: :cheesy:
[Further thought]
Could it be that some eejit has put a liberal dose of thread lock there? Guys here will know the best stuff to dissolve it; acetone, brake cleaner, etc.
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I'd not do any of that with the clutch master cylinder on the bike. Remove it and put it in a bench vise. You likely have some corrosion build up along with some surface wear on the screw/pin.
I've removed them before both on my Norge and a couple of my Ducatis where the pin is no longer round but oval and worn in the middle, sometimes with a sharp "step" in the metal. Had to soak the thing in PB Blaster for a while before the threads broke loose. Even then it was a PITA unthreading those few tiny threads at the bottom of the pin.
MG Cycle and OPP both sell replacement pins for about $8 US. The clutch master may need a rebuild at this point as well so getting a seal kit might be a good move. Just in case you have to add a bunch of heat to get the pin out.
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I'd not do any of that ... etc. etc.
Wot eye sed. :undecided: