Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: inditx on November 22, 2025, 11:14:02 AM
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Anyone had any experience with this one or others?
https://www.motoracingshop.com/en/quick-shifter-healtech-for-moto-guzzi-v85-tt-19-21.html
inditx
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Anyone had any experience with this one or others?
https://www.motoracingshop.com/en/quick-shifter-healtech-for-moto-guzzi-v85-tt-19-21.html
inditx
Not me and I never will. It’s torture on the mechanicals and will quietly go about the business of damaging the gear dogs .
It slams the next gear in before the motor has the chance to drop the required revs to suit the new ratio and the spinning flywheel is forced to drop 1,000 or so rpm in half a second without the cushioning effect of the clutch disengaging.
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Not me and I never will. It’s torture on the mechanicals and will quietly go about the business of damaging the gear dogs .
It slams the next gear in before the motor has the chance to drop the required revs to suit the new ratio and the spinning flywheel is forced to drop 1,000 or so rpm in half a second without the cushioning effect of the clutch disengaging.
100% agree
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I had a V85TT, with only 75 HP QS isn't going to help, besides you won't get to hear the clunk that we all enjoy while riding a Moto Guzzi.
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I am hardly an expert on quick shifters. A few months ago I didn’t know what they did nor what they looked like. I had to ask here what was the device mounted on my new V100. I also have a new 2025 V85. Having played some with the quick shifter I can say I wished my V85 had one. But I think their only real application is for drag racing. Hold the throttle WFO and hit the shifter at what you think the best RPM to do so. It shifts gears faster than any automatic.
Down shifting or shifting at less than full throttle the shifts are no where as smooth. Its not a way to make a manual transmission into an automatic. So unless you want to go racing, forget about it.
The reason I think the V85 could use one is it takes longer to pull in the clutch, shift gears, and let out the clutch while backing off the throttle and reapplying throttle than its takes my V85 to accelerate through that gear, at least the first four.
Pete
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The first bike I owned with a quick-shifter was my 2023 V100 Mandello S. And having used it I thought, what's the big dealer with this quick-shifter thing. Nearly every time I used it, I thought the transmission was going to fall out of the bike. It was jerky and not at all smooth no matter how I used it. Then I bought a Husqvarna Norden 901 which has the same engine as the KTM 890 Adventure. That bike has an excellent quick-shifter, smooth both up and down. Very handy to use when off road. Then I bought a Suzuki GSX-S1000GT which also comes with a quick-shifter. This bike has the slickest quick-shifter yet. So smooth that most of the time up-shifting can't be felt and the only way you can tell the bike has changed gears is a slight change in the exhaust tone and a slight dip in the RPMs on the tach. I use the quick-shifters all the time on both the Norden 901 and the Suzuki. When I owned the V100 I rarely used the quick-shifter for fear that doing so would damage the bike's internals.
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Great replies, thanks
I was wanting to use the clutch less as I age but it sounds like an A/S at least with the Guzzi is not the answer
inditx
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I am hardly an expert on quick shifters. A few months ago I didn’t know what they did nor what they looked like. I had to ask here what was the device mounted on my new V100. I also have a new 2025 V85. Having played some with the quick shifter I can say I wished my V85 had one. But I think their only real application is for drag racing. Hold the throttle WFO and hit the shifter at what you think the best RPM to do so. It shifts gears faster than any automatic.
Down shifting or shifting at less than full throttle the shifts are no where as smooth. Its not a way to make a manual transmission into an automatic. So unless you want to go racing, forget about it.
The reason I think the V85 could use one is it takes longer to pull in the clutch, shift gears, and let out the clutch while backing off the throttle and reapplying throttle than its takes my V85 to accelerate through that gear, at least the first four.
Pete
Did you test ride a new Stelvio by chance?
Can you compare the 2025 V85 to older models by chance?
Thanks
inditx
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Great replies, thanks
I was wanting to use the clutch less as I age but it sounds like an A/S at least with the Guzzi is not the answer
inditx
Can’t comment on the one you are looking for but with the one Guzzi uses on the V100 you can use or not. Pulling in the clutch disables the quick shifter. There is no downside to having it available.
Pete
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Did you test ride a new Stelvio by chance?
Can you compare the 2025 V85 to older models by chance?
Thanks
inditx
I didn’t ride a Stelvio but crossed it off the list after sitting on it. Its taller and heavier than the V85 and the Triumph 800XC I was looking to replace.
The V85 is a great all around bike for me at this point. The V100 fills my need for speed if not a long distance touring bike.
Pete
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Thanks PeteS
inditx
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Not me and I never will. It’s torture on the mechanicals and will quietly go about the business of damaging the gear dogs .
It slams the next gear in before the motor has the chance to drop the required revs to suit the new ratio and the spinning flywheel is forced to drop 1,000 or so rpm in half a second without the cushioning effect of the clutch disengaging.
“Get off my lawn you Dam kids!!”
I don’t want any dam electronic ignition, all it’s going to do is break!”
Sometimes we all need to take a moment and relax.
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“Get off my lawn you Dam kids!!”
I don’t want any dam electronic ignition, all it’s going to do is break!”
Sometimes we all need to take a moment and relax.
You have no idea what my point actually was.
Quoting from a Clint Eastwood movie does nothing to support an argument opposing my point of view.
If you want to engage me with a factual based argument I’ll respond, but to enter with a banal comment like that does nothing, other than to reinforce an existing point of view.
Electronic ignition, disc brakes, better tyres, superior lights and all that stuff, is a welcome addition to our quality of existence and does nothing to the detriment of the machine.
A quick shifter on the other hand does, it’s only pandering to the fantasy that most riders have, that they are good enough to benefit from such a feature.
Please tell me why getting your gear through half a second faster to the detriment of gearbox longevity, holds any perceived advantage.
Then tell me where my reasoning is flawed, regarding the damage that will be cumulatively inflicted on the gearbox innards, without resorting to any lame analogies or misapplied anecdotal points of view.
Also by the way…
It’s “damned kids…”
not “Dam kids…”
Dam kids are kids that exist in a dam.
“Damned kids” are kids that are destined to be damned.
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Sorry Huzo, all I meant was less clutch could be good on older hands that have arthritis rearing it’s ugly head.
I am not using an A/S to drag race or for track days, I do neither of those, at least not anymore.
inditx
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Sorry Huzo, all I meant was less clutch could be good on older hands that have arthritis rearing it’s ugly head.
I am not using an A/S to drag race or for track days, I do neither of those, at least not anymore.
inditx
Well there’s no need for apology inditx.
The benefit of not needing to use a clutch would doubtless be beneficial under those circumstances.
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My 2022 snicks into and out of gears as well as any motorcycle I've ever ridden. It's super smooth with ZERO clunk.
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I've had several modern bikes that came with quick shifters. TBH, I don't really see any benefit for street riding. If I had to pay more for the quick shifter option, I wouldn't. Of course nowadays many bikes have optional "packages" that include a bunch things that you may not want/need to get the ONE thing you might want!! That was the case when I bought my BMW R1200RS a few years ago. I had the choice of custom ordering the bike - months-long wait - or riding one out of the dealer showroom with the max package which had mostly stuff I didn't want/don't use. If the issue is to use the clutch less, I'd buy a new Honda E-clutch bike. The E-clutch seems to be the perfect "solution" to either use the clutch or not!
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I generally only use the clutch for start/stop and shifts between 1+3 on the big block CARC bikes. It can still be a little clunky untill everything is warmed up. The Stornello is much better, and of course everything is easier as the miles build.
I just don't want a computer to take away the pleasure and enjoyment of riding. I could care less about the "speed" of it.
One day with all the damage to my left hand/arm I will have to go with a clutch less MC if I am still able to ride. May be others, but Honda seems to have several options.
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Huzo, buddy, I’m just dicking around with you, you should know that by now!
But to your point regarding longevity of the clutch and drive system when combined with a quick shifter, what actual evidence do you have to support your claim? Or are you just assuming that it must cause premature damage?
By the way, I wasn’t quoting Clint, yes his character did utter something very similar in a movie, however the “get off my yard” colloquialism has been a meme for at least several decades.
And here’s a pro tip, if you get to the point of needing to correct someone’s spelling or punctuation, it almost always means you’re talking things far too seriously. Maybe try some deep breathing exercises instead?
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A quick update;
I spoke to one of our favorite MG dealers and he said that if it was a factory blip/quickshift, it was actually less wear and tear on the tranny, drivetrain etc.
The big problem is with aftermarket shifters as the ECU and the bike cannot compensate for them.
Ymmv
inditx
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To provide evidence that quick shifters damage gearboxes over the long term, I’d have to have two identical bikes from new and then have two riders do the same kilometres under the same conditions simultaneously over 50,000 km or more and then compare the innards, one using a qickshifter and one not.
Clearly not possible, so I’ll have to rely on critical thinking and common sense, with a bit of engineering accumen and recognition of the bleeding obvious thrown in…
But follow me through this.
I can accept that a quick shifter will pop the gear through in more or less the same fashion as a skilled rider, but here’s the thing…again.
It never was about the the gears themselves, it’s about the shock loading that is transmitted through the internals when forced to accelerate or decelerate the spinning flywheel with absolutely minimal cushioning.
I will ask a set of questions and seek an answer to each before moving on, to see where our opinions begin to diverge.
#1
If you are doing 50 mph in 6th gear at 3,000 rpm and select 5th gear, what is your approximate rpm immediately after the change has gone through ?…(within 100 rpm).
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Hey Huzo,
Not sure if you were asking me this or BullDog.
At any rate, you’re beyond my depth so for now, I’ll be content with accepting a quickshifter only if it comes with the bike, read no aftermarket ones and probably not use it much anyway.
inditx
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Hey Huzo,
Not sure if you were asking me this or BullDog.
At any rate, you’re beyond my depth so for now, I’ll be content with accepting a quickshifter only if it comes with the bike, read no aftermarket ones and probably not use it much anyway.
inditx
It was/is in response to Bad Chad’s question as to if I had any evidence to support my theory that quick shifters come at the cost of gearbox longevity.
I’m awaiting the tsunami of answers to question #1 so we can clear up differences of opinion as we move forward.
I think it was Bulldog that indicated he agreed with my opinion.
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A quick update;
I spoke to one of our favorite MG dealers and he said that if it was a factory blip/quickshift, it was actually less wear and tear on the tranny, drivetrain etc.
The big problem is with aftermarket shifters as the ECU and the bike cannot compensate for them.
Ymmv
inditx
Either the guy at the dealership is lying or has no idea what he is talking about. A quickshifter will create more wear however it likely won't be enough wear for anyone to notice during their ownership of a guzzi. There are some junk aftermarket quickshifters (dynojet) that relied on a pressure switch however the ones that use a strain gauge are just as good as the factory because they are functionally identical. They both cut the ignition for a set amount of time when the strain gauge senses the shift. I used annatori on my gsxr when I was younger. The more you raced those bikes, the more often you had to get the dogs recut.
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Either the guy at the dealership is lying or has no idea what he is talking about. A quickshifter will create more wear however it likely won't be enough wear for anyone to notice during their ownership of a guzzi. There are some junk aftermarket quickshifters (dynojet) that relied on a pressure switch however the ones that use a strain gauge are just as good as the factory because they are functionally identical. They both cut the ignition for a set amount of time when the strain gauge senses the shift. I used annatori on my gsxr when I was younger. The more you raced those bikes, the more often you had to get the dogs recut.
You are right that it won’t affect YOUR ownership period. The problem will be when you throw it at the next poor sod when it has 125,000 miles on it.
Yeah, you can cut the ignition to unload the drive train so the gear goes through, but when the solid gear dogs have to mesh and the engine is STILL revving 500 rpm too high or low for the new ratio, tell me please, what is it that slams the revs down by 500 in 0.2 seconds ?
Will someone PLEASE answer my damn question, instead of telling me what “some guy” reckons.
If I’m wrong, it should be easy to tell me where.
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To provide evidence that quick shifters damage gearboxes over the long term, I’d have to have two identical bikes from new and then have two riders do the same kilometres under the same conditions simultaneously over 50,000 km or more and then compare the innards, one using a qickshifter and one not.
Clearly not possible, so I’ll have to rely on critical thinking and common sense, with a bit of engineering accumen and recognition of the bleeding obvious thrown in…
But follow me through this.
I can accept that a quick shifter will pop the gear through in more or less the same fashion as a skilled rider, but here’s the thing…again.
It never was about the the gears themselves, it’s about the shock loading that is transmitted through the internals when forced to accelerate or decelerate the spinning flywheel with absolutely minimal cushioning.
I will ask a set of questions and seek an answer to each before moving on, to see where our opinions begin to diverge.
#1
If you are doing 50 mph in 6th gear at 3,000 rpm and select 5th gear, what is your approximate rpm immediately after the change has gone through ?…(within 100 rpm).
Huzo, I hear what you are saying, and your theory is not flawed, but I don't think it's as bad as you portray.
MC transmissions are sequential, and many are shifted up and down successfully and effectively especially in the mid to higher gears. 132k miles on my XS11 without a single issue, and two of my CARC bikes are 50 & 70k miles and easily snick in and out of the mid-upper gears without issue or drama, and without any spooge on the drain plugs at fluid changes.
Admittedly the CARC tranny's are clunkier and take more precision, but proper technique of a light preload on the shifter and blip of the throttle and the gear slides with into the next up or down. The small blocks are MUCH better than CARC.
I'm opposed to the speed shifter because of the unnecessary complexity, layer of electronics, and promotion of what "I" see as laziness and lack of skill. I get it on race bikes where every micro second counting, but overall would avoid. Most systems have a sensor on the shift lever that blips fuel/spark, and the TBW just cuts throttle. I don't need a computer to do what my hands and feet can do..... (Grunt grunt Luddite grumbles)
IMO, a SS is completely unnecessary for the V85. With proper technique can easily do 2-6 up and down, possibly even down to 1, but if your going to 1, your likely gonna want to be on the clutch.
No shade cast to those who feel differently YMMV
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Either the guy at the dealership is lying or has no idea what he is talking about. A quickshifter will create more wear however it likely won't be enough wear for anyone to notice during their ownership of a guzzi. There are some junk aftermarket quickshifters (dynojet) that relied on a pressure switch however the ones that use a strain gauge are just as good as the factory because they are functionally identical. They both cut the ignition for a set amount of time when the strain gauge senses the shift. I used annatori on my gsxr when I was younger. The more you raced those bikes, the more often you had to get the dogs recut.
That is highly unlikely as he is renown for his Guzzi knowledge and many on here extoll his Guzziness (I just made that word up) and bikes in general for that matter.
At any rate, for the occasional user, read non racing or track days, like you said I can’t imagine most would notice any wear.
ymmv
inditx
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Let me know when we get something more than theory or anicdotal evidence.
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I've been riding for 40+ years, and wouldn't use a QS anyway if the bike came with one. Guess I'm old-school that way, just like how I think 3-pedals in a car isn't the same thing as one having paddle shifters. I recently got a '26 Aprilia Tuono 660 Factory that came with a QS, and I've only used it once, just to see how it works. Totally useless on the street, IMO...
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When you blip the throttle without cracking the clutch, how does that serve any purpose ? The rpm will not change unless the clutch is feathered.
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Quick overview of the topic. so long as you rev match the harm is not that great on the gears. I sometimes wont use the clutch on the V85, more on 4-6. it is easily do able without the use of another device. A slight clunk is not bad, grinding noises are.
"While some motorcycle transmissions may incorporate synchromesh for smoother engagement, especially in certain touring or cruiser models, the vast majority of sports and racing motorcycles use unsynchronized, dog-engaged gearboxes.
These are often referred to as "dog boxes" or "sequential dog boxes" and are designed for rapid, precise shifting, often without the need for a clutch.
The absence of synchromesh means that riders must manually match engine revs to gear speeds to avoid grinding, but this also enables quicker shifts, which is critical in racing environments."
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Quick overview of the topic. so long as you rev match the harm is not that great on the gears. I sometimes wont use the clutch on the V85, more on 4-6. it is easily do able without the use of another device. A slight clunk is not bad, grinding noises are.
"While some motorcycle transmissions may incorporate synchromesh for smoother engagement, especially in certain touring or cruiser models, the vast majority of sports and racing motorcycles use unsynchronized, dog-engaged gearboxes.
These are often referred to as "dog boxes" or "sequential dog boxes" and are designed for rapid, precise shifting, often without the need for a clutch.
The absence of synchromesh means that riders must manually match engine revs to gear speeds to avoid grinding, but this also enables quicker shifts, which is critical in racing environments."
That’s wonderful news, but the question is how do you “rev match” if you do not crack the clutch, I’ve dined greedily on most of the word salads served up in the preceding posts, but have not had that question addressed.
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Upshifts are easy, just let off the throttle for a split second and back on it. You drop the rpm's to match the next gear. next time you are riding in 3rd or 4th on the gas, give a pressure up on the shift lever then ease of the gas and it will glide right in. Then work on the timing of off throttle just long enough for it to want to shift then right on the throttle like you would using the clutch only half the time. Then try downshifting from 6th to 5th, less off the gas than upshift and as you are hitting the lever down you slightly rev it. This will seem smoother at first and easier to try. It is easier at higher rpm's, at least over 4k. 1-2 and 2-3 is gonna be the harder ones with the greater rpm change. I don't push it that hard. But 3rd and up I have if I'm playing and rinning hard.There's no way to tell you exactly how it's done, it's a lot of feel. If you watch the schaff video on the v85 he runs the first half with no clutch giving a very good demo of how it's done. Even without the rev matching or easing the gas for a split second, enough force will cause the shift to happen. I'm at 27k miles and I will hear a slight clunk 1-2-3 but not feel anything. My honda fury clunks about twice as loud as the MG. my sons bmw s1000r QS is super smooth and I wish we could have it that good, but we like it old school, right.
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I can crash it through without any problem too but, as you rev it up with the damn clutch engaged, please tell me how that will “increase the revs..”
Please answer THAT question..
When the clutch is not pulled, increasing the throttle will not increase the revs..(unless you let the bike speed up.)
Just admit that you can get away with it, please don’t tell me you know why.
But I’ll tell you.
You WON’t get away with it forever, but the next guy who gets it will pay your bill…
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You drop the rpm's to match the next gear.
Have you read what you just posted ?
Is that done with the clutch still engaged ? Lever still out ?
Will your revs drop with the clutch lever not pulled in ?
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I think we all agree, it’s the outoblip feature of downshift qs that’s the clever bit, no need to pull the clutch.
How ?
Reminds me of paddy, on telly
Favourite invention?
Thermos
Why.?
It keeps things cold and it keeps things hot
Yes paddy
But how does it know?
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Ok that’s it…
Plenty of pivoting and semi witty responses, but no actual answers.
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You have to realize that the gear boxes in most bikes with longitudinal crankshafts have a harder job. There is no reduction in rpm to the gearbox like most bikes so the main shaft is spinning at crankshaft speeds making for a noisier shift as the dogs engage at a higher speed. I watched a video yesterday day of a test ride on a BMW R12S, talk about clunky shifting.
kk
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Have you read what you just posted ?
Is that done with the clutch still engaged ? Lever still out ?
Will your revs drop with the clutch lever not pulled in ?
I have no idea why you started this conversation. If a video showing how is not good enough then don't do it. It's that simple. It comes across as you saying" but how do you feel the music?" There is no actual answer.....
Think of it this way. When you pull in the clutch the gears inside of the transmission are still spinning the same speed as before the clutch is puled in and you shift. Those gears are still experiencing the speed difference of them coming together and engaging but because the clutch is not engaged the shock is internal to the transmission with the rest of the drivetrain stress relieved . With or without the clutch the gears in the transmission are doing the same thing at the same speed difference when engaging, you are only taking out the motors torque. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE TRANSMISSION WHERE THE MAJORITY OF STRESS IS, that is why it clunks. When letting off the gas until the drivetrain is unloaded there is less stress than pullng in the clutch and using the clutch friction to drop the rpms. Taking off from a dead stop would be a lot more pressure on the drive system than a clutchless shift. You are wanting excact rpm's to let the motor drop. A rider does not need to know all of the gear ratios and what the prm's will be at a the next gear change. You simply need to relieve the stress on the drivetrain. If you do not re apply the gas in the next gear it is no difference than just letting off the gas in that next gear for engine braking. The stress on the engine is not increased by a significant amount. The cush drive in the wheel can handle a lot more stress than the shift will cause.
18 wheelers would go through clutches all the time if they did not float gears. The drivers are not watching and memorizing the rpm diferences for all those gears. It is a feeling thing.
https://youtu.be/H9AfflC2yRE?si=7htaVwnoAGV6icAH
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why they call it a dog gear and how it works.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8h7SCjiU314
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RikzgmPvmnE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU1Ol5ZgRnI
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It's sunny and clear here today. It might even hit 50 degrees. I'm going to hop on the V85, hit TWO in Suches and about 400 curves on the way up. Somewhere along the way I will forget I ever read this discussion while using the fingers on my left hand to shift up and down just like they have done for over a million miles and over 60 years.
Carry on!
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This fellow makes the argument that autoshifters actually cause less wear on the gears.
I guess he should know since he makes them.
Check out this article;
https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/motorcycle-technology/motorcycle-quickshifters-are-they-safe-how-work
inditx
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Didn't watch the video, but when a producer of a product pushes it, it seems like an advertisement.
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Didn't watch the video, but when a producer of a product pushes it, it seems like an asvertisement.
Yep.
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I'm with Vagrant.
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This fellow makes the argument that autoshifters actually cause less wear on the gears.
I guess he should know since he makes them.
Check out this article;
https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/motorcycle-technology/motorcycle-quickshifters-are-they-safe-how-work
inditx
Troy Mc Lure…
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A V85 needs a quickshifter like a fish needs a bicycle
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I’m sorry I started this thread
I am out and not at all sure I’ll buy another new MG given everything that’s going on
RideOn! Yall
inditx
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I’m sorry I started this thread
I am out and not at all sure I’ll buy another new MG given everything that’s going on
RideOn! Yall
inditx
Give it a try. Thats the only way you will know if its going to work for you. Then report back. I might end up using one on my V85.
Pete
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I’m sorry I started this thread
I am out and not at all sure I’ll buy another new MG given everything that’s going on
RideOn! Yall
inditx
What is it that’s going on that could divert you so easily ?
People are gunna’ be people no matter what you buy mate. There are those that said not to mess with my V85 before I started and then after I (nearly) finished..? They climbed on board, worst thing that can happen is you find out some of them were wrong…
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Ok that’s it…
Plenty of pivoting and semi witty responses, but no actual answers.
What was the question again Huzo? It's gotten lost on me. My impression is you are saying you believe that clutchless shifting with or without a SS/QS gizmo will damage a transmission yes? Then you asked people to provide proof of the opposite?
I get your point, and don't disagree, but I've been shifting clutchlessly for 40 years and have never had a transmission related issue, or a ton of spooge or debris on a drain plug. Even on my 132K mile 1979 XS1100 with its famously bad 2nd gear dog failure. Anecdotal? Sure. Evidence of skill and precision technique? ABSOLUTELY :cool: lol...... Yes I kid. I think that your claims are also be anecdotal. You can always find an example of anything, but I'd bet a beer that the math would prove out that clutchless shifting done properly does not do significant damage to or effect the life, longevity, function of a MC driveline.
Because I am retired and my wife hasn't thought of a 'honey do' yet today, I'm gonna ramble.
A quick shifter/speed shifter is designed to allow a rider to shift clutchless. They've been around for years and employed several approaches. Most prior to TBW were for upshifts only. This was a typical/popular system guys in the FJR/Fz1 crowd used.
(https://i.ibb.co/8gW7S3Pf/57.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8gW7S3Pf)
Generally, prior to TBW systems, this was done by a sensor on the shift lever sending a signal to cut the ignition momentarily when a sensor on the shift lever noticed movement/pressure on the lever to shift up. The gearbox is unloaded, making it possible to switch one gear up without closing or bliping the throttle. The 'computer' does it for you. When the spark comes back, you’re in the next gear. I've also seen other systems that will momentarily effect fuel, or ECU, and of course the TBW systems do the same my momentarily and faster than human blip the throttle, and enables up and down shifting.
For me, I never wanted to cut or patch into my ignition/ecu/fuel system, or have to worry about aligning a sensor on the shift lever, or for that matter, have a computer do what I can and rob me of the joy of riding.
IMO, It works best on a transmission that has been run in a bit, or past its first service and fluid change, requires a properly adjusted shift lever and throttle cables and it takes finesse and listening to the 'feel' of the bike.
I will preload the shifter up or down, blip/let off the throttle for a second. If at the right point and timing, the next gear engages smoothly and when complete, I go back on the throttle. I find the 1-2-1 ratios are less amenable to clutchless shifting, but 3-4-5-6-5-4-3 are smooth as silk in most cases. Most important is to learn the bike/transmission and find the window of smoothness. The speed/quick shifter does, handles the throttle blip faster and more precise than a fat old human like me.
**If it doesn't happen smoothly and easily, you are doing it wrong. It takes time.
That said, the CARC bikes are the most finicky of any I've owned. I find the Norge/Griso/1200 S all can be a bit lurchy in clutchless upshifting, especially 2-3-4, but are usually super smooth in 4-5-6-5-4. The Stornello, and Baby Breva are VERY amenable to smooth clutchless shifting up or down above 2nd gear.
GRANTED, I am not racing, not hamfooting it, just riding normally. I'm opposed to the SS/QS because I dont want a computer doing what I can/should do, or the complexity of a system that interferes with ignition and fuel. Been on a ride where the QS/SS add on system crapped the bed or caused problems. NO THANKYOU....
I'm sure it has been said, but Motorcycle Transmissions are NON Synchronous, but Sequential making clutchless shifting relatively easy.
Here is a great video to explain how MC transmissions work, and facilitate clutchless shifting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8xnIFf4id4
If you don't want/like doing it, with or without a QS/SS system, stock or added, on don't do or use it. But all that said, IMO, adding a QS/SS is unnecessary on a small block if the rider takes the time to learn their bike and do the throttle blip themselves.
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When you blip the throttle without cracking the clutch, how does that serve any purpose ? The rpm will not change unless the clutch is feathered.
The throttle blip (either up or down, depending which way you are shifting) is just to relieve the pressure between the dogs so the current gear can disengage and the next one engage. I have been doing clutchless upshifts like that when under hard acceleration for almost 40 years, but only just recently learned how to clutchless downshift. The latter is of limited utility on the street in my opinion, and even of questionable use on the track if you have a slipper clutch. I am not really sufficiently coordinated to brake hard and blip the throttle anyway. So a quickshifter with auto-blip would be great on my track bike - then I could use my limited skill and motor coordination to concentrate on braking, and let me foot do all the shifting.
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What is it that’s going on that could divert you so easily ?
People are gunna’ be people no matter what you buy mate. There are those that said not to mess with my V85 before I started and then after I (nearly) finished..? They climbed on board, worst thing that can happen is you find out some of them were wrong…
Not easy at all. I too have done my share of “making the ride mine”. Autoshifter aside, I only was asking to relieve continuous clutch usage, I’ve ridden Guzzis for years and owned more than I care to say.
Thw marque has me spooked now however and I have no Cadre or Hamlin close to me. I’m good with basic mechanics and mods but if parts get harder to find that’s another thing altogether.
inditx
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Mike Tiberio’s Convert would have been perfect. No hand levers at all. Brakes were integrated using only the foot pedal and with a few engines mods was able to use high gear only.
Pete
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Again, all good stuff.
But it’s the almost instant reduction of flywheel rpm that occurs in a fraction of a second with clutchless changes that has to be achieved by an uncushioned engagement of the gear dogs.
The much more gradual re engagement of the clutch following a regular shift, allows the dogs to engage with zero torque and the engine can spin up/down as the friction plate contacts.
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Again, all good stuff.
But it’s the almost instant reduction of flywheel rpm that occurs in a fraction of a second with clutchless changes that has to be achieved by an uncushioned engagement of the gear dogs.
The much more gradual re engagement of the clutch following a regular shift, allows the dogs to engage with zero torque and the engine can spin up/down as the friction plate contacts.
I understand what you are saying, but a good clutchless shift is very smooth, so I am thinking that in practice a lot of the difference between input and output rpm is made up during the brief moment that neither the previous gear nor the next one is engaged. That situation has to exist for some amount of time during every shift or else the whole thing would lock up. I don't think you are accounting for this potential for rev matching during the "false neutral" period in the way your are thinking about it.
And the proof is in the pudding. I have regularly clutchless upshifted all of my bikes over 40 years of riding (three Suzukis, two Ducatis, one Royal Enfield and now a V7 850) and have never had a transmission malfunction of any type over several hundred thousands of km. I have less experience with the downshifting and honestly I have my doubts that it is quite as benign.
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I understand what you are saying, but a good clutchless shift is very smooth, so I am thinking that in practice a lot of the difference between input and output rpm is made up during the brief moment that neither the previous gear nor the next one is engaged. That situation has to exist for some amount of time during every shift or else the whole thing would lock up. I don't think you are accounting for this potential for rev matching during the "false neutral" period in the way your are thinking about it.
And the proof is in the pudding. I have regularly clutchless upshifted all of my bikes over 40 years of riding (three Suzukis, two Ducatis, one Royal Enfield and now a V7 850) and have never had a transmission malfunction of any type over several hundred thousands of km. I have less experience with the downshifting and honestly I have my doubts that it is quite as benign.
I think the biggest contributing factor is how close the gear ratios are. I wouldn't try it on my California but on my gsxr I never had an issue with a quickshifter or rolling the throttle. The guys that needed the dogs recut were spraying 100 shot and shifting at 14k rpm with a carpenter head/cam package. Cutting the power to the coils did drop the rpm quick enough for a seamless shift however bikes like the gsxr have a very lightweight motor designed for racing. Those motors could rev up or down very quickly. The v85 is making about a 1/3 of their power and probably shifting around half the rpm. As long as the gear ratios are close enough and the rotating assembly with the clutch is light enough I wouldn't have any worries. I don't have a v85 though so it's all speculation.
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I’m not going to attempt to address the technical aspects of this conversation, just add my existing experience with “no clutch shifts”.
I have a 1983 Honda CB1000C and this transmission can be smoothly shifted in any gear, including 1st to 2nd gear which can be iffy without experience.
I simply back off the throttle for an instant and quickly and firmly pull up of the shifter. There is no grinding or jerking, just a smooth shift. I think it’s simply the design of a superior designed transmission as my prior CB900s could also be clutchless shifted easily and smoothly.
I think the question that would need addressing is what are we, who do this, are actually accomplishing by making gear shifts eliminating the clutch???
The only thing I can say I do it for is to possibly lengthen the life of the clutch and cable and I’m not about to say that this practice significantly accomplishes this.
I would say that if there is even a slight chance off destroying a transmission, then it ain’t worth the effort.
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The last few responses are very encouraging, because at least they acknowledge that there are factors at play that deserve addressing.
Yellowduck says that he has done this practice over many years on multiple bikes.
This I suggest is where the problem resides…
It is not an issue where you do it on many bikes over a number of years, because each bike has a (relatively) minimal exposure to the torture, it’s when you do it on one bike over many years.
The potential damage is cumulative.
I do like the post that talks about the time between disengagement and engagement of the next gear, as when the alteration of the flywheel rpm must occur.
This is what I’ve been banging on about all along.
It is the almost total lack of cushioning of the shock through the gear train when the new gear is slammed home, that I suggest is the source of the potential damage or wear.
This is over tens of thousands of cycles.
Now y’all may say that there is cushioning in the springs within the clutch body that “soaks up” the shock.
Garbage…
Those springs compress about 4 mm maximum before they coil bind, that is going to be around 3 or 4 degrees of crankshaft rotation and at 3,000 rpm (50 revs per second), y’all can do the math and tell me how long it takes to rotate 4 degrees at those rpm..
It comes down to thousandths of a second..
You can safely call it zero time that you are smashing those revs down or up. Deceleration shock is the same as accelleration shock, it is a cruel force that is instantaneously applied either way and the energy has to go somewhere.
Imagine you have a flywheel of equal mass in a test rig and it’s rotating at 3,000 rpm, you have a one metre lever on the supporting shaft to which you can apply an instant brake so as to drop those revs by 1,000 in less than 0.1 seconds.
How much force will that apply to the end of your one metre lever ?
A shitload would be an acccurate assessment and that is over ONE metre, now consider the RADIUS of your gear in the ‘box..
It’s about 25 mm, so that force that you felt on the end of the one metre lever in the test rig, can be multiplied by 40, because torque is force x distance.
This my friends, is what you are asking your gearbox to endure, many many tens of thousands of times in it’s life, just so you can “save yourself the trouble” of “pulling in the clutch….” :rolleyes:
I’ll leave y’all with the elephant in the room question regarding changing without the clutch…..Why ?
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The last few responses are very encouraging, because at least they acknowledge that there are factors at play that deserve addressing.
Yellowduck says that he has done this practice over many years on multiple bikes.
This I suggest is where the problem resides…
It is not an issue where you do it on many bikes over a number of years, because each bike has a (relatively) minimal exposure to the torture, it’s when you do it on one bike over many years.
The potential damage is cumulative.
I do like the post that talks about the time between disengagement and engagement of the next gear, as when the alteration of the flywheel rpm must occur.
This is what I’ve been banging on about all along.
It is the almost total lack of cushioning of the shock through the gear train when the new gear is slammed home, that I suggest is the source of the potential damage or wear.
This is over tens of thousands of cycles.
Now y’all may say that there is cushioning in the springs within the clutch body that “soaks up” the shock.
Garbage…
Those springs compress about 4 mm maximum before they coil bind, that is going to be around 3 or 4 degrees of crankshaft rotation and at 3,000 rpm (50 revs per second), y’all can do the math and tell me how long it takes to rotate 4 degrees at those rpm..
It comes down to thousandths of a second..
You can safely call it zero time that you are smashing those revs down or up. Deceleration shock is the same as accelleration shock, it is a cruel force that is instantaneously applied either way and the energy has to go somewhere.
Imagine you have a flywheel of equal mass in a test rig and it’s rotating at 3,000 rpm, you have a one metre lever on the supporting shaft to which you can apply an instant brake so as to drop those revs by 1,000 in less than 0.1 seconds.
How much force will that apply to the end of your one metre lever ?
A shitload would be an acccurate assessment and that is over ONE metre, now consider the RADIUS of your gear in the ‘box..
It’s about 25 mm, so that force that you felt on the end of the one metre lever in the test rig, can be multiplied by 40, because torque is force x distance.
This my friends, is what you are asking your gearbox to endure, many many tens of thousands of times in it’s life, just so you can “save yourself the trouble” of “pulling in the clutch….” :rolleyes:
I’ll leave y’all with the elephant in the room question regarding changing without the clutch…..Why ?
I asked the same question at the end of my response also and even though I do it quite frequently I don’t have a reasonable explanation. Possibly because on my bike it’s always just so smooth and trouble free. I don’t have to move anything except my left foot about a 1/4”.
In my case maybe just to lazy to move more body parts than necessary 🤔🤣
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For me it's only sensible / useful under full throttle acceleration. It definitely decreased your zero to 60 (or to whatever) time compared to clutching the upshifts. Nobody uses the clutch while accelerating on a race track.
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For me it's only sensible / useful under full throttle acceleration. It definitely decreased your zero to 60 (or to whatever) time compared to clutching the upshifts. Nobody uses the clutch while accelerating on a race track.
Using Casey Stoner as an example.
One of the on board cameras he had on the Ducati showed his left hand, he used the clutch on downshifts.
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The last few responses are very encouraging, because at least they acknowledge that there are factors at play that deserve addressing.
Yellowduck says that he has done this practice over many years on multiple bikes.
This I suggest is where the problem resides…
It is not an issue where you do it on many bikes over a number of years, because each bike has a (relatively) minimal exposure to the torture, it’s when you do it on one bike over many years.
The potential damage is cumulative.
I do like the post that talks about the time between disengagement and engagement of the next gear, as when the alteration of the flywheel rpm must occur.
This is what I’ve been banging on about all along.
It is the almost total lack of cushioning of the shock through the gear train when the new gear is slammed home, that I suggest is the source of the potential damage or wear.
This is over tens of thousands of cycles.
Now y’all may say that there is cushioning in the springs within the clutch body that “soaks up” the shock.
Garbage…
Those springs compress about 4 mm maximum before they coil bind, that is going to be around 3 or 4 degrees of crankshaft rotation and at 3,000 rpm (50 revs per second), y’all can do the math and tell me how long it takes to rotate 4 degrees at those rpm..
It comes down to thousandths of a second..
You can safely call it zero time that you are smashing those revs down or up. Deceleration shock is the same as accelleration shock, it is a cruel force that is instantaneously applied either way and the energy has to go somewhere.
Imagine you have a flywheel of equal mass in a test rig and it’s rotating at 3,000 rpm, you have a one metre lever on the supporting shaft to which you can apply an instant brake so as to drop those revs by 1,000 in less than 0.1 seconds.
How much force will that apply to the end of your one metre lever ?
A shitload would be an acccurate assessment and that is over ONE metre, now consider the RADIUS of your gear in the ‘box..
It’s about 25 mm, so that force that you felt on the end of the one metre lever in the test rig, can be multiplied by 40, because torque is force x distance.
This my friends, is what you are asking your gearbox to endure, many many tens of thousands of times in it’s life, just so you can “save yourself the trouble” of “pulling in the clutch….” :rolleyes:
I’ll leave y’all with the elephant in the room question regarding changing without the clutch…..Why ?
I understand your 'theoretical concerns', and I don't disagree that improperly done it could and would do damage, but done properly, as I have stated before, no damage, no spooge on the magnetic plug, and no issues at all.
Yamaha XS1100 - 132K miles
Yamaha XS750 - 48K miles
Norge - 55K miles
1200 Sport - 72K miles +/-
Stornello 13K miles
Griso 15K miles
Baby Breva 22K (?) miles
No issues ever.
Lightly preload the shift lever up or down.............. blip the throttle gear shifts smoothly, then back on the throttle. As I said before, the CARC big blocks are the toughest to make smooth, but it is doable.
Have done, will do PROPERLY when I am in the mood, NOT when accelerating hard, is for easy relaxed riding and my borderline crippled increasingly arthritic and tendonitis filled left hand thanks me......
But that infirmity is only the last 5 years, I have been doing this on my XS11 since 1986, and the GRiSO since 2015..... Stornello since 2016. Again ALL without issue, without ANY evidence of abuse, wear or chuncks/spooge in the transmission. I do it because I want to, like to, and will continue to.
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Good answer Bulldog, not to the question I posed, but good answer.
No one is going to try to understand my point…
No one.
The concern is not how well or otherwise you can make the shift…..Does everyone get that ?
It is what the dogs are being asked to do when they engage, absolutely sweet bugger all to to with “technique”. Donald Duck could shift the gear and the dogs would still have the same task to perform.
As an aside, when you blip the throttle, is that on an upshift or downshift ?
On an upshift, what is the process you do for the blip and when you blip for the downshift, what do you do then ?
Can you detail what you do with the throttle for each ?
That is your hand, not foot.
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The last few responses are very encouraging, because at least they acknowledge that there are factors at play that deserve addressing.
Yellowduck says that he has done this practice over many years on multiple bikes.
This I suggest is where the problem resides…
It is not an issue where you do it on many bikes over a number of years, because each bike has a (relatively) minimal exposure to the torture, it’s when you do it on one bike over many years.
The potential damage is cumulative.
I do like the post that talks about the time between disengagement and engagement of the next gear, as when the alteration of the flywheel rpm must occur.
This is what I’ve been banging on about all along.
It is the almost total lack of cushioning of the shock through the gear train when the new gear is slammed home, that I suggest is the source of the potential damage or wear.
This is over tens of thousands of cycles.
Now y’all may say that there is cushioning in the springs within the clutch body that “soaks up” the shock.
Garbage…
Those springs compress about 4 mm maximum before they coil bind, that is going to be around 3 or 4 degrees of crankshaft rotation and at 3,000 rpm (50 revs per second), y’all can do the math and tell me how long it takes to rotate 4 degrees at those rpm..
It comes down to thousandths of a second..
You can safely call it zero time that you are smashing those revs down or up. Deceleration shock is the same as accelleration shock, it is a cruel force that is instantaneously applied either way and the energy has to go somewhere.
Imagine you have a flywheel of equal mass in a test rig and it’s rotating at 3,000 rpm, you have a one metre lever on the supporting shaft to which you can apply an instant brake so as to drop those revs by 1,000 in less than 0.1 seconds.
How much force will that apply to the end of your one metre lever ?
A shitload would be an acccurate assessment and that is over ONE metre, now consider the RADIUS of your gear in the ‘box..
It’s about 25 mm, so that force that you felt on the end of the one metre lever in the test rig, can be multiplied by 40, because torque is force x distance.
This my friends, is what you are asking your gearbox to endure, many many tens of thousands of times in it’s life, just so you can “save yourself the trouble” of “pulling in the clutch….” :rolleyes:
I’ll leave y’all with the elephant in the room question regarding changing without the clutch…..Why ?
The trick is to release the load on the drivetrain, which is the purpose of hitting the kill switch or blipping the throttle. If you don't release the load, it will not be a smooth shift. Just like switching from 4WD back to 2WD in a truck. No need to be in neutral just punch it and shift between the "acceleration" and the "engine braking" mode.
My Dad's construction company had lots of beat up old vehicles that needed more maintenance than they got. One driver shifted a truck so smoothly, that was notorious for shifting poorly.
"George, how are you getting that useless POS to shift so smoothly?"
"I either don't use the clutch at all, or I double clutch it! Plus you need to rev it up a bit between gears. As long as the transmission shaft is spinning the same speed when you leave one gear and enter the next gear, it will engage smoothly."
I've been in the cab with him when he was driving that hunk of junk, and he was not lying. He made shifting without the clutch smooth and effortless.
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I asked the same question at the end of my response also and even though I do it quite frequently I don’t have a reasonable explanation. Possibly because on my bike it’s always just so smooth and trouble free. I don’t have to move anything except my left foot about a 1/4”.
In my case maybe just to lazy to move more body parts than necessary 🤔🤣
Give yourself some credit Dan, some day you might need that minute amount of movement in your left hand and luckily, that hand will work like brand new.
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Lightly preload the shift lever up or down.............. blip the throttle gear shifts smoothly, then back on the throttle. As I said before, the CARC big blocks are the toughest to make smooth, but it is doable.
There you are folks! That's the technique!
Works for motorcycles, dump trucks, and pick up trucks.
Operator skill and mechanical sensitivity is required, other wise, stick with using the clutch!!
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Good answer Bulldog, not to the question I posed, but good answer.
No one is going to try to understand my point…
No one.
The concern is not how well or otherwise you can make the shift…..Does everyone get that ?
It is what the dogs are being asked to do when they engage, absolutely sweet bugger all to to with “technique”. Donald Duck could shift the gear and the dogs would still have the same task to perform.
As an aside, when you blip the throttle, is that on an upshift or downshift ?
On an upshift, what is the process you do for the blip and when you blip for the downshift, what do you do then ?
Can you detail what you do with the throttle for each ?
That is your hand, not foot.
I doubt you will get an answer here. It appears the only group that might help are road racers who use quick shifters all the time.
We have learned that apparently no one has put one on a V85 yet which was the original question, and the only Guzzis that have them are a few V100s. I doubt any of those have had their gearboxes opened up yet.
Add to that there are as many gearbox designs as their are bikes. So while most of us actually understand the question, few have the answer.
Pete
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Good answer Bulldog, not to the question I posed, but good answer.
No one is going to try to understand my point…
No one.
The concern is not how well or otherwise you can make the shift…..Does everyone get that ?
It is what the dogs are being asked to do when they engage, absolutely sweet bugger all to to with “technique”. Donald Duck could shift the gear and the dogs would still have the same task to perform.
As an aside, when you blip the throttle, is that on an upshift or downshift ?
On an upshift, what is the process you do for the blip and when you blip for the downshift, what do you do then ?
Can you detail what you do with the throttle for each ?
That is your hand, not foot.
I thought I answered you concern on 'wear and abuse of the dogs' by showing clearly that I have never seen an ounce of evidence that there is increased or significant wear of the dogs as evidenced during fluid changes or function over many miles and many bikes. Surely you would agree that if there was severe or significant wear on the dogs, it would be evidenced by metallic debris or residue (AKA spooge) on the drain plug magnet.
But perhaps I am missing your question?
The fact that Donald Duck is a total klutz and famous for being uncoordinated aside :cool:, and may not be the best anecdote, I offer the following as my final foray on this topic.
My technique (again) is: Light pressure on shift lever up or down, adjustment of throttle (AKA blip) to find that 'neutral' spot to let the dog slide easily, and you are in the next gear up or down.
On upshifts, I release or let off the throttle just enough so that the lever moves easily. Once shift is complete, the throttle is reapplied and acceleration continues. Harder to describe downshifts, and frequently, the transmission easily cooperates by snicking into the lower gear. Its an instinctual thing, but I will often raise the throttle a bit to again, take pressure off the dogs so the shift happens smoothly.
For ME, this is for casual easy riding and ac/de-celleration, and key is setting the throttle so that the gear shift lever easily selects the next gear up or down.
I should also restate several other factors.
1. Properly adjusted throttle cables. Slack makes this messy and far more difficult
2. Properly adjusted shift lever. Efficient control is essential as this is a 'by feel' exercise. A loose or poorly adjusted shift lever with too much play, or poor toe engagement makes it more difficult.
3. CARC bikes are more difficult and can be a bit lurchy. Of my 4 CARC oriented bikes, they all have a very different personality and response. I've never been able to get the GRiSO to cooperate smoothly, so I rarely do it, though I will still try on occasion.
4. I dont ALWAYS shift this way, but do so frequently enough, especially while moving at speed and shifting gears on non technical roads.
I've also stated that the CARC bikes, likely due to the large flywheels are the most difficult to do smoothly, especially on upshifts. The gear lever easily slides to the next gear, but if I dont feather and let off the throttle enough the bike will lurch or jump forward just as if you let off the clutch too fast on acceleration. It's not as big of a deal on downshifts. The Stornello and Baby Breva are no drama up or down.
Thus, I'll say again that with proper technique, it is unnecessary on a V85 IMNSHO....... I know they sell the Mandello and MANY sport bikes have them for those who want to pretend they are Nicky Hayden and bang through the gears clutchlessly, but thats not my style, and wasn't even when I was young.
I have friends who have and will never try clutchless shifting. That's fine by me, I'm not looking to make converts. But my experience in 40 years and high mileage rides have shown no deleterious effects on longevity or function. That's all I am saying.
Don't like the idea? dont do it. NUF SAID
I understand your concerns, and you are not wrong in principle, but you are also not right in your assertions that this is death and abuse to a transmission.
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I understand your concerns, and you are not wrong in principle, but you are also not right in your assertions that this is death and abuse to a transmission.
That is a pretty good summary of this thread.
Take the load off the drive train, by either using the clutch, the kill switch, or rolling the throttle on/off, and if there is enough time for the gear dogs to engage fully, the wear on the transmission gears will probably be similar with all three methods.
It would be a fascinating experiment to strap two identical motorcycles to two different dynos, automate both to run 300,000 miles. One would perform clutch upshift and down shifts, the other clutchless upshifts and downshifts with good technique.
Every 20,000 miles, change oil and filter. Save all the loose metal.
After 300,000 miles measure the gears, the clutch, and weigh all the metal in the oil and filters.
Would not surprise me if there was very little difference in wear.
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Reading this thread, did the thought go thru anyone else's mind:
"Quick shifter for a Moto Guzzi? Isn't that like traction control for a Yamaha TW200?"
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A V85 needs a quickshifter like a fish needs a bicycle
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Ahh, but Huzo, you seem to be negating the clear benefit a speed shift offers by way of saving thousands upon thousands of unnecessary shift linkage/clutch movement wear! Come on Man, clutch cable/hydraulic line can only do a finite number of uses before failure, surly you must concede your misguided notions are BS?
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Reading this thread, did the thought go thru anyone else's mind:
"Quick shifter for a Moto Guzzi? Isn't that like traction control for a Yamaha TW200?"
I wish there was a spit your bourbon through your nose emoji......
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Now on some Harleys, a quick shifter might knock a couple seconds off the 1/4 time.....
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I never understood why some people ask if a motorcycle needs something. If we based our motorcycle related purchases off needs, then no one here would have a motorcycle at all because it's not needed. The question should be do you want it. If a guzzi had a lightweight rotating assembly and clutch system and close ratio transmission then yes, I really want one.
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Good answer Bulldog, not to the question I posed, but good answer.
No one is going to try to understand my point…
No one.
The concern is not how well or otherwise you can make the shift…..Does everyone get that ?
It is what the dogs are being asked to do when they engage, absolutely sweet bugger all to to with “technique”. Donald Duck could shift the gear and the dogs would still have the same task to perform.
As an aside, when you blip the throttle, is that on an upshift or downshift ?
On an upshift, what is the process you do for the blip and when you blip for the downshift, what do you do then ?
Can you detail what you do with the throttle for each ?
That is your hand, not foot.
No one has to tell you. just was the first 5 minutes of this video and he will show you clutchless upshifts on a V85TT. Both hand in the shot so you can actually see and hear what he is doing. Worry about downshifts later.
https://youtu.be/H9AfflC2yRE?si=m30TlPbeNDeQncSp
ps, there's a yamaha scr950 sitting in my collection that has a bad second gear. Note for son, It's not made for wheelies in second gear. So I completely get why you have the questions you do. The torque on a driveline is no joke, but a 3-500 rpm difference when there is no stress on the drivetrain is no where near the limit. Reving the motor up some and releasing the clutch loads a bunch of torque on the driveline. As you said there are springs on the clutch and there are cushions in the final drive. the dog gears engage with the same force of speed difference when unloaded. clutch or throttle is no difference on the gears.
https://youtu.be/H9AfflC2yRE?si=m30TlPbeNDeQncSp
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Ok guys, because of the Pacific Ocean, I can’t sit at the same table at the same time and watch y’all duck for cover, so I have no option but to leave it there.
However you are still answering the question I did not pose, because you all had the answer ready that you wanted to give.
You think I am asking how to get a good clutchless shifts, I do it for a living in 16 litre turbo diesel Kenworths with Eaton Fuller non synchro ‘boxes.
Do you think I do not know how to change without the clutch ? The phenomenal advances that have been made in metallurgy and gearbox design, has allowed you to be an unadulterated butcher to your gearbox and can do so with minimal repurcussions to your wallet.
Go ahead and continue to abuse your gearbox and sell it before you have to face the consequences of your mechanical non sympathy and have a good day.
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Ok guys, because of the Pacific Ocean, I can’t sit at the same table at the same time and watch y’all duck for cover, so I have no option but to leave it there.
However you are still answering the question I did not pose, because you all had the answer ready that you wanted to give.
You think I am asking how to get a good clutchless shifts, I do it for a living in 16 litre turbo diesel Kenworths with Eaton Fuller non synchro ‘boxes.
Do you think I do not know how to change without the clutch ? The phenomenal advances that have been made in metallurgy and gearbox design, has allowed you to be an unadulterated butcher to your gearbox and can do so with minimal repurcussions to your wallet.
Go ahead and continue to abuse your gearbox and sell it before you have to face the consequences of your mechanical non sympathy and have a good day.
No ducking here brother............ Believe what you want, do what you want, or not. But I will remind you that YOU raised the objection, asserted that it was 'unadulterated butchering' and you requested technique and justification. I get it. Believe what you want.
When you finally come to the US, how about you and I spend a couple days to tear down my 130K + mile XS1100, often shifted clutchless by me since 1986 over a case of beer and pounds of American Grilled Beef, and we report the findings? Will be great fun, and the house is in the middle of the Appalachians with thousands of miles of amazing roads. I'll even let you pick your ride, from the Convert, 70K Mile 1200 Sport, 50K Mile 8V Norge, or the Griso. Heck, I'll even let you take the Mello Yello Stornello TT.... ;-)
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FWIW: I still use the clutch all the time and match revs. Kinda part of the fun of riding.
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Although most truck drivers float gears Fuller Eaton says don't do it. :smiley:
kk
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No ducking here brother............ Believe what you want, do what you want, or not. But I will remind you that YOU raised the objection, asserted that it was 'unadulterated butchering' and you requested technique and justification. I get it. Believe what you want.
When you finally come to the US, how about you and I spend a couple days to tear down my 130K + mile XS1100, often shifted clutchless by me since 1986 over a case of beer and pounds of American Grilled Beef, and we report the findings? Will be great fun, and the house is in the middle of the Appalachians with thousands of miles of amazing roads. I'll even let you pick your ride, from the Convert, 70K Mile 1200 Sport, 50K Mile 8V Norge, or the Griso. Heck, I'll even let you take the Mello Yello Stornello TT.... ;-)
Good response.
I do hear Our friend, Pete’s , point and one must agree that if something did go wrong when preforming a “no clutch shift”, could be catastrophic for a transmission or clutch assembly, possibly. We must also admit that when, with possible exceptions, that if a motorcycle has a clutch that by design it should be engaged when shifting gears.
To argue these points are at best a little nearsighted and at worst down right indefensible.
That being said, as I said in an earlier post I do frequently shift gears, especially the last 3, on my 1983 Honda CB1000C. This bike probably due to a superior design shifts flawlessly using this technique when the rider has experience in doing the unorthodox technique.
This being said, I don’t think all motorcycles transmissions can be safely shifted without using the clutch as designed.
I attempted doing it on a couple of my Guzzis and it was instantly obvious that this practice was not a good idea due to the gears grinding or lunging/jerking when going in gear. And I did use the same technique as the Honda.
I guess the bottom line is that it’s everyone’s personal preference since they paid good money for their bikes and can treat them any way they like.
Either way, I really don’t give a shift🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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I'm on board with you all. I don't have a bike with a QS, never tried one, and don't expect to ever own one. I kinda of like he whole order of operations, minus an occasional clutches up shift. But it is kind of fun to watch folks twist into knots trying to save themselves, figuratively of course.
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Well said Dan.
I enjoy these theoretical threads simple exactly because they are theoretical. Arguments & opinions ad infinitum!
If one ever gets the chance to tear down two identical motorcycles with similar mileage, and measure wear, the discussion of the which variable caused how much wear will start all over again.
Oil type, oil change intervals, cheap tires or good tires on the which bike, driven in Kansas or West Virginia, did either rider use more engine braking or apply the brakes more, rider weight, luggage weight, wind load, road speed, etc. etc. etc.
During Design Review Boards in the engineering world, these discussions often end when one or more of the participants says: "Oh yeah? Why don't you prove it!"
At which point usually everyone agrees there is no way to prove their point conclusively.
"Yeah! You're right! I can't prove my point. Lets go to lunch and we can argue sports, current events, etc."
To my Simple Mind, as long as the drivetrain is unloaded for a sufficient amount of time for the gear dogs to engage fully, (full bearing area is attained before the load is re-applied), the wear on the gear dog bearing areas will be the same whether the drive train was unloaded with the clutch, an ignition kill switch, or adept throttle manipulation.
Now can we all agree that buying cheap rear tires with minimal traction is a fine way to minimize transmission wear?
Be kind to your transmissions, Hose that tire down with Armor All before you ride!!!
Imagine the wear on the Yamaha TW200 transmission.....
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Well said Dan.
I enjoy these theoretical threads simple exactly because they are theoretical. Arguments & opinions ad infinitum!
If one ever gets the chance to tear down two identical motorcycles with similar mileage, and measure wear, the discussion of the which variable caused how much wear will start all over again.
Oil type, oil change intervals, cheap tires or good tires on the which bike, driven in Kansas or West Virginia, did either rider use more engine braking or apply the brakes more, rider weight, luggage weight, wind load, road speed, etc. etc. etc.
During Design Review Boards in the engineering world, these discussions often end when one or more of the participants says: "Oh yeah? Why don't you prove it!"
At which point usually everyone agrees there is no way to prove their point conclusively.
"Yeah! You're right! I can't prove my point. Lets go to lunch and we can argue sports, current events, etc."
To my Simple Mind, as long as the drivetrain is unloaded for a sufficient amount of time for the gear dogs to engage fully, (full bearing area is attained before the load is re-applied), the wear on the gear dog bearing areas will be the same whether the drive train was unloaded with the clutch, an ignition kill switch, or adept throttle manipulation.
Now can we all agree that buying cheap rear tires with minimal traction is a fine way to minimize transmission wear?
Be kind to your transmissions, Hose that read tire down with Armor All before you ride!!!
Imagine the wear on the Yamaha TW200 transmission.....
Well….i reckon that since it’s too cold for most of the WGC members to ride we’ve got to have something for entertainment?
And one must admit some of the guys here are very entertaining.
Also one must admit that our opinions and differences are always more entertaining and productive with guys like Peter, alias HUZO, as well as a couple others here.
It’s also very satisfying to see that even our differences and disagreements are debated with respect for each other.
Hats off to all👍
NCDan/Danny
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Tell it brother Dan! :azn:
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Tell it brother Dan! :azn:
Thanks BC👍
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No one has to tell you. just was the first 5 minutes of this video and he will show you clutchless upshifts on a V85TT. Both hand in the shot so you can actually see and hear what he is doing. Worry about downshifts later.
https://youtu.be/H9AfflC2yRE?si=m30TlPbeNDeQncSp
ps, there's a yamaha scr950 sitting in my collection that has a bad second gear. Note for son, It's not made for wheelies in second gear. So I completely get why you have the questions you do. The torque on a driveline is no joke, but a 3-500 rpm difference when there is no stress on the drivetrain is no where near the limit. Reving the motor up some and releasing the clutch loads a bunch of torque on the driveline. As you said there are springs on the clutch and there are cushions in the final drive. the dog gears engage with the same force of speed difference when unloaded. clutch or throttle is no difference on the gears.
https://youtu.be/H9AfflC2yRE?si=m30TlPbeNDeQncSp
Rough as guts, just a toss fest that proved nothing. I’ve seen more interesting self gratification videos on an adult site…
I really liked the “silent change” technique demonstrated, the one that sounded like a claw hammer being belted on the inside of the gearbox housing, just a pig ignorant moron.
Also in the comments I see that someone said they like to see the “rev matching”… :rolleyes:
I must have dozed off during that bit, but if he did rev match, how did the blip (on the downshifts), accomplish that feat given that he didn’t pull the clutch.
I heard the intake sound as our hero opened the throttle, but with the clutch out, the revs cannot and did not rise, because the road speed did not alter.
Just a little test for the non believers out there…
Next time y’all are out on your V85 (or whatever else), ride along in any gear and a quick blip on the throttle without pulling the clutch and see if the revs rise…I’ll give y’all a clue…They won’t.
So when you find out that’s true, can you then furnish me with the incalculably valuable information as to how you have managed to “rev match..?”
Here’s another clue at no charge…You haven’t.
You just feel good because you’ve convinced yourself of something you want to believe and the phenomenal metallurgical advances and the skilled engineers who designed and built your bike for you to abuse, have facilitated this endorphine filled exercise that holds no (immediate) consequence.
Just get over it, if you routinely do this, your level of finesse is crap, but you will not suffer any penalty because I’ll bet my aching arse that you’ll never see 100,000 miles on the thing since you’ll sell it on to someone else who will inherit the “reward” of your mechanical ignorance…
Just sayin’…
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Next time y’all are out on your V85 (or whatever else), ride along in any gear and a quick blip on the throttle without pulling the clutch and see if the revs rise…I’ll give y’all a clue…They won’t.
So when you find out that’s true, can you then furnish me with the incalculably valuable information as to how you have managed to “rev match..?”
Just sayin’…
I answered this question for you, politely, in reply #55. No one is saying you can rev match while the dogs are engaged. It happens in the time between disengaging one set and engaging the set for the next lower gear. If this period of no engagement didn't exist between every shift, the whole transmission would lock up. Right? So logically the engine is free to rev during this false neutral period. You can buy a machine that does this for you - or do you think auto-blippers are a conspiracy theory?
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I answered this question for you, politely, in reply #55. No one is saying you can rev match while the dogs are engaged. It happens in the time between disengaging one set and engaging the set for the next lower gear. If this period of no engagement didn't exist between every shift, the whole transmission would lock up. Right? So logically the engine is free to rev during this false neutral period. You can buy a machine that does this for you - or do you think auto-blippers are a conspiracy theory?
Ok I agree with that.
How long is the period between disengagement of one gear and engagement of the next ? (Just an educated guess will do.)
No, I do not think auto blippers are a conspiracy theory, I know they exist, but let’s get these questions answered one at a time.
Why would you need to tell me that you were polite ? I’m not asking these questions because I don’t understand, I’m asking them because I do understand…
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Ok I agree with that.
How long is the period between disengagement of one gear and engagement of the next ? (Just an educated guess will do.)
No, I do not think auto blippers are a conspiracy theory, I know they exist, but let’s get these questions answered one at a time.
Why would you need to tell me that you were polite ? I’m not asking these questions because I don’t understand, I’m asking them because I do understand…
To answer your questions:
1. I have no idea how long the period of disengagement is. But long enough for the engine to be revved by an auto-blipper, apparently. Does it matter how many ms that is? I am sure it varies by gearbox design, and likely even by gear pairs.
2. I mentioned that I had already answered the question politely, because your more recent post I was responding to wasn't very polite at all - quite condescending and sarcastic, in my view. Thus my little dig about conspiracy theories - also not polite. :angel: I'll be nicer going forward if you will.
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#1
The reason I ask about the time thing, is that if I said it was 0.1 seconds and we both watched the same video, then the question would be, can you increase the rpm by 1000 in 0.1 seconds by opening (blipping) the throttle ?
No, certainly not in the “float time” between the gears.
I can bet anything if you got that bike in the workshop and took it up to 3,000 rpm in neutral and then blipped the throttle, 0.1 seconds is not enough to gain the required revs, especially with the tiny throttle
application he used.
Also you me and anyone else, can clearly hear that the revs are being slammed upwards /downwards by the gearbox, not the throttle. This is evidenced by the crash and the instantaneous nature of the rpm increase that you hear each and every time.
#2
Less importantly, I don’t mind how impolitely I’m treated and I can’t see the sarcasm as clearly as you can on your side of the Pacific, but that’s standard fare at an Aussie barbecue.
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Huzo, I have heard you're a pretty good guy in person, and I believe those who told me so. And I believe that likely makes you a pretty good guy period. But like many of us, the two dimensional world of electronic screens often scrambles intentions. But I like you, as many of us do, so keep on keeping on! ( I hope I didn't make any grammatical errors in this pros, as I have noticed such seems to get under your fingernails!)
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Huzo, I have heard you're a pretty good guy in person, and I believe those who told me so. And I believe that likely makes you a pretty good guy period. But like many of us, the two dimensional world of electronic screens often scrambles intentions. But I like you, as many of us do, so keep on keeping on! ( I hope I didn't make any grammatical errors in this pros, as I have noticed such seems to get under your fingernails!)
That BC, IMNSHO, is what makes the internet so much fun! The poster has absolutely zero control over how their post will be interpreted!
All, and I mean every single person who accesses the internet, fills in the voids that are either present in the posts they read, or that the voids that they perceive to be present in the posts they read, with "the intent of the poster" that they prefer to imagine.
Humans just don't seem to be well adapted to communicating with each other in a non face-to-face manner.
Voice inflections, tone of voice, facial clues, body language, etc. are all absent in text forums.
Endlessly fascinating that everyone seems to agree that "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!"
But when it comes time to assuming the responsibility for deciding to be offended or upset or find humor or accept a difference in culture, or a generational difference, etc..... many humans prefer to default to "You offended me or upset me! How dare you!" Imagine a Greta Thunberg voice.
Maybe Flip Wilson was right "The devil made me do it!!"
The Red Badge of Courage of Superior Sensibilities!
Question for Bulldog9: "Can one earn a Purple Heart for wounds suffered while posting on the internet?"
Oooops, correction, Bulldog9, "Can one earn a Purple Heart for wounds suffered while reading other people's posts on the internet?"
Enquiring minds want to know.....
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Huzo, I have heard you're a pretty good guy in person, and I believe those who told me so. And I believe that likely makes you a pretty good guy period. But like many of us, the two dimensional world of electronic screens often scrambles intentions. But I like you, as many of us do, so keep on keeping on! ( I hope I didn't make any grammatical errors in this pros, as I have noticed such seems to get under your fingernails!)
Well, you did BC but I wasn’t going to mention it.
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That BC, IMNSHO, is what makes the internet so much fun! The poster has absolutely zero control over how their post will be interpreted!
All, and I mean every single person who accesses the internet, fills in the voids that are either present in the posts they read, or that the voids that they perceive to be present in the posts they read, with "the intent of the poster" that they prefer to imagine.
Humans just don't seem to be well adapted to communicating with each other in a non face-to-face manner.
Voice inflections, tone of voice, facial clues, body language, etc. are all absent in text forums.
Endlessly fascinating that everyone seems to agree that "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!"
But when it comes time to assuming the responsibility for deciding to be offended or upset or find humor or accept a difference in culture, or a generational difference, etc..... many humans prefer to default to "You offended me or upset me! How dare you!" Imagine a Greta Thunberg voice.
Maybe Flip Wilson was right "The devil made me do it!!"
The Red Badge of Courage of Superior Sensibilities!
Question for Bulldog9: "Can one earn a Purple Heart for wounds suffered while posting on the internet?"
Oooops, correction, Bulldog9, "Can one earn a Purple Heart for wounds suffered while reading other people's posts on the internet?"
Enquiring minds want to know.....
Well, maybe in Australia........
But I think you've dished out enough for most reading this thread to pass them out all around. :cool:
I've long learned when you get stuck on something nothing will change your mind. That's why I invited you to come over and help me disassemble my 46 year old 132k mile XS1100 which had been shifted clutchlessly by yours truly for 130k of this miles.
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Well, maybe in Australia........
But I think you've dished out enough for most reading this thread to pass them out all around. :cool:
I've long learned when you get stuck on something nothing will change your mind. That's why I invited you to come over and help me disassemble my 46 year old 132k mile XS1100 which had been shifted clutchlessly by yours truly for 130k of this miles.
You can't discern me from Huzo!!!!!
I rest my case!!!!
This is possibly the most OFFENSIVE thing I have ever read on the internet!!
:laugh: :sad: :wink: :wink:
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You can't discern me from Huzo!!!!!
I rest my case!!!!
This is possibly the most OFFENSIVE thing I have ever read on the internet!!
:laugh: :sad: :wink: :wink:
Bahahaaaa.....
What can I say..... Little phone, old eyes, long day, and houseguests who overstayed their visa 4 months ago
But I sure am glad Dusty isn't a moderator anymore. If so, I'd have been banned for life!!
Apologies to you and Huzo. I'll let you guys decide who's worse offended. But hey, if he comes to the US for me to prove him wrong about clutchless shifting, you should come up to Rock Bridge Baths/Lexington and join in the fun...
Seriously, I need to stop posting on WG from phone.
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Bahahaaaa.....
What can I say..... Little phone, old eyes, long day, and houseguests who overstayed their visa 4 months ago
But I sure am glad Dusty isn't a moderator anymore. If so, I'd have been banned for life!!
Apologies to you and Huzo. I'll let you guys decide who's worse offended. But hey, if he comes to the US for me to prove him wrong about clutchless shifting, you should come up to Rock Bridge Baths/Lexington and join in the fun...
Seriously, I need to stop posting on WG from phone.
As a good friend says: "Never apologize. It just confuses people!"
Self-deprecating humor is the best kind. Sooner or later, we all screw up!
Self-deprecating humor is kind of like Butt Hurt Proof Armor (BHRA) if you think about it!
Every day when I get out of bed, I don the BHPA! Sometimes I even wear it to bed...
Since your are only about a 2 hour ride away thru some glorious scenery, I might have to take you up on that some day.
More great roads in VA than one can ride in a lifetime. with or without a clutch....
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As a good friend says: "Never apologize. It just confuses people!"
Self-deprecating humor is the best kind. Sooner or later, we all screw up!
Self-deprecating humor is kind of like Butt Hurt Proof Armor (BHRA) if you think about it!
Every day when I get out of bed, I don the BHPA! Sometimes I even wear it to bed...
Since your are only about a 2 hour ride away thru some glorious scenery, I might have to take you up on that some day.
More great roads in VA than one can ride in a lifetime. with or without a clutch....
Yes, we definitely need to get together. A former member (actually banned for life) lives in Appomattox.
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Yes, we definitely need to get together. A former member (actually banned for life) lives in Appomattox.
I know who you mean. My wife used to work with him & I met him at a couple of Moto Guzzi lunches.