Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Che on May 26, 2009, 07:11:21 PM
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In the current issue of Australian Motorcycle News 27th May, 2009 they have a pic of a 1600cc Guzzi Californian? Is this for real? :o
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post a link and or pics.........
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whew, I hope so.
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Just googled..no info or pics ???
Would get a few bums on seats here in OZ...
...as theres a healthy big criuser market
& not everyone wants or can afford a HD.
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Is it common for Guzzi to anounce a new model in Australia? Maybe we should check their website. ::)
AJ
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Is this for real?
The 1900cc 1984 Cal2 didn't go over too well...
(http://www.dankalal.net/summary/specials/cal2double.jpg)
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Is this for real?
The 1900cc 1984 Cal2 didn't go over too well...
(http://www.dankalal.net/summary/specials/cal2double.jpg)
Is that bike real? They made a 4 cylinder?
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same question
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Just called John Sample the Australian Moto Guzzi Importer. It is happening but not known how long or if it will make Australia. It is air cooled by the way. Apparently it is to compete against the Triumph 1600 as a lot of interest has been shown for that motorcycle.
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Is this for real?
The 1900cc 1984 Cal2 didn't go over too well...
Is that bike real? They made a 4 cylinder?
Bogus photoshop. There's also a 6 cylinder Centauro pic out there, too.
But Guzzi did make 4 cylinder bikes.
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I dont know why i even asked that question actually....
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Bogus photoshop.
Oh, come on; it's not a bogus photoshop--it's a real photoshop; took me half a minute, at least, to do.
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I liked that photshop bike, you have the idea, niw build a real ine. My grandad was a drad racer in the mid 60's. he linked 4 289's to gether in a dragster. they outlawed him, he only do exobisons after that. it could lay smoke all the way down the 1/4, but was a female dog to stop!
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The rumor has been out there for awhile that the next California would be heavily updated and would probably have a 1400cc version of the new engine...
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That was actually a one off special made for a double above the knee amputee who wanted more power. He has a long legged personal aid who always passengers and holds the bike up for him at stop lights.
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In the current issue of Australian Motorcycle News 27th May, 2009 they have a pic of a 1600cc Guzzi Californian? Is this for real? :o
Now you have spoiled it for me. I was about to go buy AMCN, should i bother ?. Anything else in there worth reading ?
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There is a large capacity sport bike comparo but only MV, KTM and Ducati European Bikes. I won't tell you who won... ;D
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There is a large capacity sport bike comparo but only MV, KTM and Ducati European Bikes. I won't tell you who won... ;D
Huh, now you won't tell me, so i'll have to go buy it ;)
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Is it common for Guzzi to anounce a new model in Australia? Maybe we should check their website. ::)
AJ
New US-spec models are usually announced at the annual, winter Ulaan Bator Motorcycle, Scooter and Camel Show in mid January. Less chance of spoilers from HD et al.
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Bogus photoshop.
Oh, come on; it's not a bogus photoshop--it's a real photoshop; took me half a minute, at least, to do.
ROFL!!!!
Pete
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I liked that photshop bike, you have the idea, niw build a real ine. My grandad was a drad racer in the mid 60's. he linked 4 289's to gether in a dragster. they outlawed him, he only do exobisons after that. it could lay smoke all the way down the 1/4, but was a female dog to stop!
Troy. think about it for a moment.
Where are the exhaust gasses going to go from the back cylinder? How is the new charge going to get into the front one? These aren't simply constraints of engineering, they are constraints of reality.
Also what the hell is an exobison??? A buffalo with a shell?? ;D
Pete
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Also what the hell is an exobison??? A buffalo with a shell?? ;D
You said you weren't interested in that sort of stuff.......
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From what I understand, people did a lot of hallucinogenic drugs in the 60's. There were all kinds of weird exhibition drag cars. "hemi under glass" and the "hairy hurst oldsmobile" are a couple of the more famous ones. The olds had a pair of 425 cu inch motors, one of which was in the trunk. a pair of fwd toronado transaxles put the power down. Four wheel drive burnouts in 1966!!!
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I'll be the first to admit my typing aint worth a !@#$, exabition was what I ment to say. I took typing in the 11th grade. 14 words a minute with 500 mistakes, I took the class for 2 reasons. the class was full of girls, I also needed the credit to graduate. I now about the evaust pipe, I just liked the look. Does my typing remind any one of buckwheats speech?
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Troy, my spelling in none too crash hot either. It was a joke. But I did like the idea of an Exobison! ;D
Look 1600cc. Really, so what? I'm sure it will be a huge attraction for those who feel challenged in the naughty bits region, (If the barrels can be hogged out enough? They do have a lot of meat in the spigots.) but whether it will make the bike appreciably 'Better' than a similar machine with the current capacity format is dubious. Look at the current 'Pushrod'/2-valve engines. Which one would I pick to power a bike for me? The Bellagio motor, in a heartbeat, but it's the second smallest engine in the Big Block range. A 950 Griso with that motor in would be a superb 'Brain in Bucket' tool, especially if you could shorten the wheelbase by a couple of inches.
Pete
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Also what the hell is an exobison??? A buffalo with a shell?? ;D
Pete
ROTFL :D :D :D :D
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<snip>
Where are the exhaust gasses going to go from the back cylinder? How is the new charge going to get into the front one? These aren't simply constraints of engineering, they are constraints of reality.
Pete
It's a new bicylindrical supercharger system. Back cylinder pumps the front.
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Ya know, if this 1600cc thing happens it may get a few more butts in seats here in the US, but I'll be bummed, unless they come out with a new 1000cc small block too.
I was thinking about it the other day, but they just don't have that 10k, classic looking, 1000-1200cc bike right now (unless they bring the Bellagio over here).
The V7 is GORGEOUS but a little low on power and expensive compared to even a Harley 883. Hell, the V7 is currently selling for what a 1200R sold for just a year or two ago. There's too big a performance and amenities gap there.
And though I like the Calvin a LOT, I'm not looking for a $15k bike.
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Interesting rumor, but the question I would ask is why more than 1200? If you go beefier in the motor, you'll need beefier frame, then you'll start loading it up with all kinds of HD-like stuff and the bike will gain 200lbs.
A 1200 V (twin valve, not four!), 6 speed, monoshock rear with CARC. Why not try to take OFF 50lbs and get it around 500lbs with 100 ponies? Keep the cruiser look but lose the fat. Make it a big cruiser that will out-handle and out run a sporty (pretty much close to that already, but might as well spike the ball in the endzone?).
I don't think we need many more cubes. The thing is already the best "classic" cruiser out there. I'd hate to see Guzzi get all "Goldwing" on us.
BTW, if you dress up a Harley with the CalVin suspension (which is pretty much available out of the factory catalog), you get a 23K bike that still weighs 250lbs more, has less cornering clearance and still makes you look like you're a "Wild Hogs" cast member. I love the feeling on the CalVin. I'm David Soul in Magnum Force, baby....
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From what I understand, people did a lot of hallucinogenic drugs in the 60's. There were all kinds of weird exhibition drag cars. "hemi under glass" and the "hairy hurst oldsmobile" are a couple of the more famous ones. The olds had a pair of 425 cu inch motors, one of which was in the trunk. a pair of fwd toronado transaxles put the power down. Four wheel drive burnouts in 1966!!!
You can't leave out TV Tommy Ivo on that list !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_TDSTNPGzU
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Short memories around here? And I thought it was only our local water that had a high aluminium content!
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/photos/349128363_iJqPv-L.jpg)
Biggest Guzzi engine I see scheduled for roll out is a 1400cc twin. Might be a bit behind schedule and the graphics don't exactly match the blurb but there's an 8v 1400 listed.
GJ
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Interesting rumor, but the question I would ask is why more than 1200? If you go beefier in the motor, you'll need beefier frame, then you'll start loading it up with all kinds of HD-like stuff and the bike will gain 200lbs.
A 1200 V (twin valve, not four!), 6 speed, monoshock rear with CARC. Why not try to take OFF 50lbs and get it around 500lbs with 100 ponies? Keep the cruiser look but lose the fat. Make it a big cruiser that will out-handle and out run a sporty (pretty much close to that already, but might as well spike the ball in the endzone?).
I don't think we need many more cubes. The thing is already the best "classic" cruiser out there. I'd hate to see Guzzi get all "Goldwing" on us.
YUP
8)
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This is Piaggio we're talking about here. To get to 1400 cc means adding 200 cc to the Norge-type engine. They accommodated for the bore increase when the 1200 engine came on-line, moving the oil returns outward from bore center in head and cylinders. It's all going to be done internally, with no need for a beefier frame and an extra pound per cc. If there's a new frame, it will be done more so to make it cheaper to produce (and, if we are lucky, to allow use of a bigger alternator), rather than because the current one can't handle whatever relatively paltry increase in horsepower will come with the extra 200 cc and two valves.
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Is it common for Guzzi to anounce a new model in Australia? Maybe we should check their website. ::)
AJ
Nope,we got the Stelvio last...
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I liked that photshop bike, you have the idea, niw build a real ine. My grandad was a drad racer in the mid 60's. he linked 4 289's to gether in a dragster. they outlawed him, he only do exobisons after that. it could lay smoke all the way down the 1/4, but was a female dog to stop!
Troy. think about it for a moment.
Where are the exhaust gasses going to go from the back cylinder? How is the new charge going to get into the front one? These aren't simply constraints of engineering, they are constraints of reality.
Also what the hell is an exobison??? A buffalo with a shell?? ;D
Pete
Pete, I thought you kept up on the the new stuff. That is the double burn required to meet Euro 17 specs. One cyl gets fresh fuel air, goes to the next for double burn then out clean as a baby's arse.
Joe in Atlanta
1972 Eldorado
2004 Ballabio
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This is Piaggio we're talking about here. To get to 1400 cc means adding 200 cc to the Norge-type engine. They accommodated for the bore increase when the 1200 engine came on-line, moving the oil returns outward from bore center in head and cylinders. It's all going to be done internally, with no need for a beefier frame and an extra pound per cc. If there's a new frame, it will be done more so to make it cheaper to produce (and, if we are lucky, to allow use of a bigger alternator), rather than because the current one can't handle whatever relatively paltry increase in horsepower will come with the extra 200 cc and two valves.
Is there enough room in the current block for another 200cc or 400cc increase?
Not that I think I want or need it, just curious.
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It seems to be what they are thinking. The plan announced several years ago was a 1400cc with 4vpc.
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Well,
I own a 1965 BMW/2 with 1600cc's. :) :) :)
It's Volkswagon powered, built in 1969 by my Uncle Mo. He made four of them using the Roger Willis kits. Mine was his personal bike that he won many awards with, including an award at the 10th BMWOA rally for going to all 10 rallys on the same motorcycle.
Tom
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Well,
I own a 1965 BMW/2 with 1600cc's. :) :) :)
It's Volkswagon powered, built in 1969 by my Uncle Mo. He made four of them using the Roger Willis kits. Mine was his personal bike that he won many awards with, including an award at the 10th BMWOA rally for going to all 10 rallys on the same motorcycle.
Tom
PICTURES PLEASE
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I heard of some bikes built on brazil based on that idea I think they were called brazilions (not wax jobs)
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Amazonas http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://amazonas.50megs.com/images/brochure_front.jpg&imgrefurl=http://amazonas.50megs.com/&usg=__eUPgCwmkDhehdwYkLZg15ai4o-M=&h=338&w=465&sz=30&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=512OaLP28OYrJM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=128&prev=/images%3Fq%3Damazonas%2Bmotorcycle%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://amazonas.50megs.com/images/brochure_front.jpg&imgrefurl=http://amazonas.50megs.com/&usg=__eUPgCwmkDhehdwYkLZg15ai4o-M=&h=338&w=465&sz=30&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=512OaLP28OYrJM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=128&prev=/images%3Fq%3Damazonas%2Bmotorcycle%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG)
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Yup, saw those!
I have also seen BMWs packing 1835cc with dual port heads, and all the go fast stuf. Too much for me!
My Uncles bike bike looks like a stock /2, but with a couple extra spark plug wires.
Sorry,
This site won't let me post a pic. I've tried till I'm blue in the face.. Ain't gonna try again.
It's like my dad told me; If at first you don't succeed ,try, try and try again. Then give up. No sence in being a damn fool about it.
Tom
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OK, I went out and bought the mag. It references an interview with Daniele Torresan (Guzzi head of communications) in the Freanch magazine AutoMoto, the French version is found here:
http://www.automoto.fr/actualite-automobile/moto/interview-moto-moto-guzzi-nouvelle-california-torresan-4408145.html
Here is Google's "translation":
Magazine: Mr Torresan at the presentation of the V7 Classic Cafe in Rome, developing a version with the engine of the Bellagio was raised. Where is this project?
Daniele Torresan: Indeed, we think the ongoing market opportunities that may arise for Moto Guzzi. The engine of the Bellagio was popular and its characteristics would further reinforce the spirit that emanates from the V7 Classic. But on the other hand, this version of the cylinder and its transmission cardan are more expensive to produce than all currently used 750 cm3. And we believe that we can offer a 910 cm3 at a rate sufficiently competitive. In the near future, the neo-classical segment will be developed based on the V7.
Magazine: So do not expect major new 2010 side Mandello?
Daniele Torresan: I only say it will not necessarily find on the retro segment. This does not mean that Moto Guzzi abandons any development, on the contrary. Like other manufacturers, the economic crisis leads us to search for Relay to support our sales and our production. And we believe that there are better opportunities that any "V10" in a market where our V7 already has all the arguments to convince.
Magazine: What else? The strategy of confrontation with the flat-twin Bavarian has not led to an explosion in sales and management has evolved in 2009. Should we then believe that Moto Guzzi turns his gaze on the other side of the Atlantic where a certain optimism seems emerge?
Daniele Torresan: The U.S. market is obviously attractive to a company like Moto Guzzi, which combines tradition, originality and character. We have the know-how to offer a bike that meets their requirements. Our customers here have been waiting a long time the California of the 21st century. With its 1100 cm3, the current model is more consistent with a competition which has at least five cents. We will return to the race with an engine displacement adequate. Triumph has included with its cylinder of 1600 cm3. Similarly Moto Guzzi will focus on its strengths to advance. It is therefore logical to re-interpret one of our legendary models for one of the biggest market on earth. America is still big customs 240,000 per year, even in times of crisis. Customers are on average slightly older than in Europe and their investment in higher motorcycles. Obviously we will not do the same volumes that Harley-Davidson but our goals are from 4000 to 5000 units in 2010. This would represent a great growth for Moto Guzzi, which I remind you, is a registered almost artisanal in the noblest sense of the word.
ENDS.
And the pic they used in the AMCN to accompany the story? A Cali Aluminium!
~ Wiley
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A 910cc small-block? Sweet! Hopefully it'll have 8v heads!!!
The 1600cc was obviously a reference to Triumph's Thunderbird...
No mention of the new California's displacement, although as Greg mentioned, 1400cc 8v has been rumoured in the past...
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I thought 750cc was as big as they could physically take the small-block.
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When they say "based on the V7" are you sure they don't just mean dressing up a Bellagio with LOOKS based on the V7? (not that I would mind, though a smaller, lighter 910cc V7 would be my preference).
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Here's my interpretation of the translation:
"Yes, the Bellagio platform would make for some very nice retros, but the smallblock platform is far cheaper to produce, so we're going to base all our retros on the smallblock. We are looking at addressing performance concerns by increasing displacement to as much as 910cc."
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Guess I should have actually read the translation eh? :D
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Here's my interpretation of the translation:
"Yes, the Bellagio platform would make for some very nice retros, but the smallblock platform is far cheaper to produce, so we're going to base all our retros on the smallblock. We are looking at addressing performance concerns by increasing displacement to as much as 910cc."
That's how I read it...
The last paragraph about the nuovo California is kinda troubling... Mentioning Harley and then Triumph's new 1600cc Thunderbird... I hope that doesn't mean they've come up with a monster like the new Triumph... Forward controls and a 64" wheelbase would make me puke... I guess we'll soon see...
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Here's my interpretation of the translation:
"Yes, the Bellagio platform would make for some very nice retros, but the smallblock platform is far cheaper to produce, so we're going to base all our retros on the smallblock. We are looking at addressing performance concerns by increasing displacement to as much as 910cc."
That's how I read it...
The last paragraph about the nuovo California is kinda troubling... Mentioning Harley and then Triumph's new 1600cc Thunderbird... I hope that doesn't mean they've come up with a monster like the new Triumph... Forward controls and a 64" wheelbase would make me puke... I guess we'll soon see...
But isn't that how Piaggio perceives the future of Guzzi? Cali cruisers? Sport bikes will be made by Aprilia, scooters by Vespa, etc. With certain pre-existing overlaps.
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But isn't that how Piaggio perceives the future of Guzzi? Cali cruisers?
I don't know about that. There is currently only one variant of the California available in the USA. The Vintage...
In the "good ole days" before Piaggio we had things like Jackals, Stones, Specials, Bassas, EVs, etc...
Piaggio's emphasis seems to have been on emulating BMW with the CARC bikes...
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Perhaps Piaggio looks at Aprilia as water-cooled Sport-Bikes
and
Guzzi as air-cooled Cruisers, Standards, and Sport-Tourers
???
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Perhaps Piaggio looks at Aprilia as water-cooled Sport-Bikes and
Guzzi as air-cooled Cruisers, Standards, and Sport-Tourers
Probably don't forget "retros"... And this is bad because we need hot sport bikes from Guzzi? Who'd buy them? I think that mix is about right.
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I heard of some bikes built on brazil based on that idea I think they were called brazilions (not wax jobs)
The Amazonas.
(http://amazonas.50megs.com/images/brochure_front.jpg)
(http://amazonas.50megs.com/images/1981_amazonas.jpg)
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Hey Danilo,
Speaking of Sport-Tourers, how's your 1200S doing? Sorry to change the subject for a second, Gentlemen.
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I just saw Danilo's answer in another post. My apologies to everyone.<diclass="msgbox">Noilesuploaded!</di>
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910 small block??? It ain't natural I tell ye!!!
Hey JohnG is Two Wheels still going? That used to be very good. That and CycleTorque!
As I say...swings and roundabouts......
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Perhaps Piaggio looks at Aprilia as water-cooled Sport-Bikes and
Guzzi as air-cooled Cruisers, Standards, and Sport-Tourers
Probably don't forget "retros"... And this is bad because we need hot sport bikes from Guzzi? Who'd buy them? I think that mix is about right.
Yeah, I guess the "Cruisers" are really more "retros" than anything else - and obviously some of the standards are retros. But I'm with ya.
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Love the 1200 Tourer, and it might not necessarily be "wrong" for this discussion. The Breva series brought a lot of people into the "fold" for Guzzi. I've talked with more than one Breva owner who say that this bike was their first Guzzi. Many were hard-core BMW riders that were looking for something with more soul but never found that "thing" that got them off the dime. Many more were oldskool Guzzi people that had strayed away over the years because of the quality issues and spotty dealers. The Breva was the platform that showed that Guzzi hadn't lost it's roots, could build a reliable and forward-thinking standard with it's own style -- not the "transformers" look of a KTM or Buell, but definitely not a Monster or UJM.
Don't know if a 1400 belongs in the Breva Platform as a standard -- just because you can doesn't mean you should. I love the "balance" of my 1200 more than anything. Fabulous brakes, seriously stable chassis and that 1200cc engine that makes you feel like the engineer on a Union Pacific "Big Boy". I don't know if more ponies would give me "more" bike. I'm seriously wondering if the different torque characteristics of the 8v motor will change the bike for the worse!
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ya gotta admit I was close on the name. you can bet that I have thought of building a vw based motorcycle. I ince had freind who told me of a kit to link a vw motor with a bmw or guzzi trans. do'nt worry aint gutting my guzzi.
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I've 1100s in both my bikes and they run great. Sure I would like to own one of the newer bikes with the new 1200 8V. But how many CCs or HPs do you really need?
Just drop a gear and go that's all you need to know on a GUZZI.
Dean
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Pete - i think the exobison was the offspring of an armadillo/bison "meeting" one very lonely night on the olde prarie. Thankfully it didn't catch on or the plains indians would have been long gone before Custer et al arrived, rendering our "romantic" Western History useless for movie fodder.
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Maybe like this?(http://www.xtupload.com/new/image-7EB3_4A214C02.jpg) (http://www.xtupload.com/new/share-7EB3_4A214C02.html)
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Jim Fueling built something like that based on the harley evo motor. it was very interesting.
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I liked that photshop bike, you have the idea, niw build a real ine. My grandad was a drad racer in the mid 60's. he linked 4 289's to gether in a dragster. they outlawed him, he only do exobisons after that. it could lay smoke all the way down the 1/4, but was a female dog to stop!
Troy. think about it for a moment.
Where are the exhaust gasses going to go from the back cylinder? How is the new charge going to get into the front one? These aren't simply constraints of engineering, they are constraints of reality.
Also what the hell is an exobison??? A buffalo with a shell?? ;D
Pete
rofl !
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Is this for real?
The 1900cc 1984 Cal2 didn't go over too well...
(http://www.dankalal.net/summary/specials/cal2double.jpg)
Is that bike real? They made a 4 cylinder?
If is real is incredible.!!!!!!!
Mauro www.heloise06.it
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http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2009/June/jun2409-guzzi-planning-harley-davidson-rival/
Moto Guzzi planning Harley-Davidson rival
By Michael Neeves -
New bikes
24 June 2009 14:22
Moto Guzzi is setting its sights on Harley-Davidson with an all-new 1600cc cruiser, MCN reveals this week.
Conceived to take on Harley’s 1584cc ‘big twins’, the new bike will be a new, big-bore version of the Italian firm’s Guzzi’s traditional across-the-frame V-twin and will carry the historic ‘California’ name.
in an exclusive interview with MCN, Moto Guzzi’s Head of Communications, Daniele Torresan said: “Our American importer has asked us to consider making a big cruiser for their market.
"The largest capacity we can go to with our current four-valve head engine is close to 1400cc. That would not be big enough, so we are thinking of producing a simple two-valve head design, which can be 1600cc.”
“The bike is only at design stage at the moment, but we may produce a prototype for the Milan show later this year.
"I have seen some of the sketches and it’s a typical cruiser style, a bit like the Yamaha Midnight Star, but obviously typically a Moto Guzzi.”
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Here is the 2009 Triumph Thunderbird 1600 - - it actually looks better in person. :) 8)
See more here: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/21july08_triumph2009thunderbird1600.htm
(http://f.imagehost.org/0744/072108top_1.jpg) (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0744/072108top_1)
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I kinda like this bike. It looks like a "real bike". Knowing Triumph, it will have a sound that match.
Ciao
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Just read this in the Euro Gossip section at the link below. I especially like this statement
would not involve too much in terms of development time and cost.
I mean, we are not talking about Honda here ;)
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/285/4792/Motorcycle-Article/Euro-Gossip-October-2009.aspx (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/285/4792/Motorcycle-Article/Euro-Gossip-October-2009.aspx)
Moto Guzzi is rumored to looking at producing a 1600cc two-valve version of its V-Twin motor to power a cruiser that can go head to head with Harley-Davidson. Pressure is apparently coming from the US importers and dealers who see the new 1600 Triumph Thunderbird stealing sales from the traditional American cruisers including Victory.
Sources suggest that an uprated and updated California with a bigger motor would be an easy answer that would not involve too much in terms of development time and cost. However, at the moment initial drawings show a more traditional cruiser on the drawing board, but with the arrival of Pierre Terblanche to the company, this could soon change. In case you are wondering why they do not use their Griso motor with eight valves, this can only be pushed to 1400cc in the current format!
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1600 Triumph Thunderbird stealing sales from the traditional American cruisers including Victory.
LOL!!! That's funny right there!!!
How many new T-Birds do you think Triumph will import to the USA this year? A couple thousand?
That'll really put a dent in HD's 200,000 USA units, won't it ?!?!?! ;)
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at the moment initial drawings show a more traditional cruiser on the drawing board, but with the arrival of Pierre Terblanche to the company, this could soon change. !
This part is interesting...
What do they mean "traditional"? Does that mean Guzzi California traditional, or does that mean HD/Victory/Japanese cruiser traditional ???
And, Terblanche is a wildcard. He could come up with something fabulous. He could come up with something hideous.... Who knows?
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Makes sense, they want to sell bikes to guys who would otherwise buy another brands big cruiser.
It's not so much about putting a dent in HD, it's about maybe selling 1500-2000 Guzzis in NA, vs hundreds.
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never make it. the crank would need to be bigger, so the counter balance would need to be bigger, so the engine case would need to be wider, so the frame would have to be wider, so they'd have to engineer a new frame...for one bike?
sorry, I think they're at their limit. You'd lose the Guzzi feel.
nah, never, ever gonna happen.
well, maybe...
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That would be stupid.
I wonder which colors will be available.
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That would be stupid.
I wonder which colors will be available.
;D
orange & black?
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How is the Triumph stealing sales from anybody, when it isn't even in the dealers showrooms yet?<diclass="msgbox">Noilesuploaded!</di>
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Core competencies! Target the brand!! Guzzi will really miss the boat if they go through with it.
Guess it would keep the death to the brand rumors alive.
They will probably do it...sheez.
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Got to wonder how big a 1600 guzzi motor would be.
They'd probably have as much success if they brought back the Ercole.
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That would be stupid.
I wonder which colors will be available.
I'd mortgage the house for a red one. ;-T
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Got to wonder how big a 1600 guzzi motor would be.
A 1600cc Goose - I can see it now. Fire it up,rev it and the bike flops on its side. They should stick to Retro bikes.
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I remember ten or so years ago Dave Parker stroked an engine using a portion of a Chevy crank and got 1500cc. This was put in a Tonti LeMans frame.
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Makes sense, they want to sell bikes to guys who would otherwise buy another brands big cruiser.
It's not so much about putting a dent in HD, it's about maybe selling 1500-2000 Guzzis in NA, vs hundreds.
Do you really think it is that simple? i.e. if you increase the CCs they will suddenly sell 3x to 4x as many bikes in the US???
???
P:)
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How is the Triumph stealing sales from anybody, when it isn't even in the dealers showrooms yet?<diclass="msgbox">Noilesuploaded!</di>
The Triumph Thunderbird is most definitely in the showrooms. I've seen one at my local Triumph/Guzzi dealer for about 2 months. I saw one at a British/European motorcycle show this past Sunday. It sounded better than I expected and it looked better than expected when a rider was on it.
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never make it. the crank would need to be bigger, so the counter balance would need to be bigger, so the engine case would need to be wider, so the frame would have to be wider, so they'd have to engineer a new frame...for one bike?
Consider that a Spine frame has no lower frame rails and all of a sudden the crankcase width is less of an issue. As for the rocking when you blip the throttle, that has been dealt with effectively before by other manufacturers.
I would think though that you would lose part of the Guzzi appeal by not having a high revving Vee Twin. The world does not need yet another thundering big bore cruiser.
Stuff the 8V 1200 in it and make it sing!
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What does it matter what they produce, and IMHO there is absolutely NO reason for something as gigantic and silly as a 1600cc motorbike, they can't get more than a handful of dealers in a country the size of the US who can work on their current product. why complicate things by producing yet another useless nail using obsolete technology and a combustion chamber design that makes it virtually impossible to get through ANY developed world country's emmissions standards.
Bin the pushrod motor! If people want it let 'em buy and old one and keep it running, it's not THAT hard. Use the current 8V motor as a stepping-stone, stop-gap model, if they feel the need they can punch the bore out by at least 5mm, maybe a bit more, the spigot walls are pretty damn thick on the 1200 motor, it's got room to grow if needs be.
If I were them though I'd be spending my money on training workshop staff the world over and finding someone better then Webber-Marelli and Digitek to supply the 'Brains' and instruments and tuning the wretched things up so that they both meet emissions standards AND work well, not one or the other!
After the current 8V reaches the end of its life, and it shouldn't be too long, it's a nice motor but its still a dinosaur, they can build any damn thing they want. I won't be buying one, my current bikes I expect to 'See me out' but if they want to compete in the 'Cruizer market they can build something huge, flash, vulgar and unpleasant like a Polaris and sell it to vulgarians and mouth breathers and with a bit of luck they'll use a bit of the money from that and other projects to build a new powerplant from the ground up for the next generation of dustcarts witha Moto Guzzi badge on.
I won't care, I'll be dead by then.
Pete
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Go figure.....size matters. Even in the motorcycle cruiser crowd. If the current 8V is good for 1400cc then it should be relatively easy to redesign/stretch/stroke it to 1600 or even 1800cc. Stretch the current Tontin frame a good 6" and you'd have enough room to design a seat for two "American" sized riders without the passengers toes poking into the back of the drivers legs. They would even have room for a 6+ gallon gas tank, cruise control electronics, abs, heated seats and grips etc, etc. etc. Sounds good to me.
The sad thing is it sounds like the current 1200 8V may be outdated before I even get to enjoy one. :(
Mark
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Makes sense, they want to sell bikes to guys who would otherwise buy another brands big cruiser.
It's not so much about putting a dent in HD, it's about maybe selling 1500-2000 Guzzis in NA, vs hundreds.
Do you really think it is that simple? i.e. if you increase the CCs they will suddenly sell 3x to 4x as many bikes in the US???
No, it's not that simple, but it could be part of an overall strategy to increase sales in a big way; or not.
???
P:)
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If Guzzi are going to produce a big bore Cali it won't be aimed specifically at the American market. It will be aimed at Harley sales in Europe, where they are double the price of the domestic sales.
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never make it. the crank would need to be bigger, so the counter balance would need to be bigger, so the engine case would need to be wider, so the frame would have to be wider, so they'd have to engineer a new frame...for one bike?
sorry, I think they're at their limit. You'd lose the Guzzi feel.
nah, never, ever gonna happen.
well, maybe...
The new case starting at the Breva 1100 supposedly has been re-dimensioned for all of those things including eventual expansion in both bore and stroke. Make it big enough, as mentioned in a post further down - and whacking the throttle open at a stop sign may make for some interesting riding dynamics.
yup, there it is. Confirmation I really do know nada...Thanks, Carl, keeps me in line
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I have my doubts Guzzi will ever develop a 1600 cc powered machine but just in case, I would advise Guzzi to put that motor in something like say a a sport like machine. That way, I could own a Guzzi and one that may go as fast as my Daytona...Speaking of Daytona...how about Guzzi sticks 1600 cc's into say, a Daytona? ;D ;-T
Whether you think big power machines are good or not...it's the way bikes are going and if Guzzi wants to compete and still maintain that Guzzi thing..they're gonna have to find a way to sqeeze more power out of the existing motor or drop it and start using Aprilla motors.
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Not so sure that is the way bikes are going. Seems the major manufacturers are beginning to bring some modified domestic models of less than 1600cc to the US market. In fact I propose the appeal of now moderate sized bikes is on the rise. 750cc to 1000cc. Am I incorrect?
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I find it kind of ironic with the new "little" V7 classic appearing to be selling so well.
GliderJohn
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Not so sure that is the way bikes are going. Seems the major manufacturers are beginning to bring some modified domestic models of less than 1600cc to the US market. In fact I propose the appeal of now moderate sized bikes is on the rise. 750cc to 1000cc. Am I incorrect?
Maybe just my wishful thinking Jeff. I'm in an "end of life" crisis...seems the older I get the faster I wanna go. ;D I'm hoping Triumph starts making a liter bike like my 675 ;D
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What puzzles me is that a company like MG which builds/sells maybe 8-10k bikes in a year has very very very little in common with a company that builds/sells 300k bikes a year.
And when you look at what MG builds from a design perspective they have even less in common.
Breva, Norge, Griso, Stelvio, Bellagio are all as different to a Harley as a BMW is to a Harley.
Now the V7 and Cal-Vin and maybe the standard Cali that they don't even bother selling in the US anymore DO have SOME cross-over to Harley's demographic, but even there it is not much.
Looking at recent history BMW DID see a SPOT of success/a spike of sales with their R1200C - but EVEN BMW decided it wasn't worth continuing to pursue. HELLO, wake the frick up, if BMW can't (or won't) do it with the network of dealers they have in the US and the success they saw with the R12C, then that is a wake-up call.
Even Triumph who basically came back in the US on the strength of their "Classics" still relies on a whole bunch of 800cc bikes (that are on the fringe of Harley's demographic) and a bunch of modern sport bikes/standards which are completely out of that demo.
Ducati recently reached milestones in their sales figures. YEAH, the retros contributed there too, but they didn't find the need to chase Harley and build cruisers.
Personally I think from a product perspective Guzzi is hitting the nail pretty square on the head.
Continue to pursue the 8V bikes, find a way to either give the 750 a little more performance OR TO MAKE IT CHEAPER. Hell, find a way to reduce costs (without cutting quality) on the whole freakin' line.
Make it so that dealers can stock bikes with confidence and sell bikes at a profit in the US (and elsewhere in the world if they have some of the same non-current model discounting issues elsewhere too) and you should be able to grow sales.
But there is no saying MG should even WANT to be at the same sales level as Harley or Honda.
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I look at this way: Moto Guzzi has got to something.... A big cruiser may not be what I would do, but if it's in the means of their ability to build one, why not.
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If only they could take the old 750 lose 10% of the engine and weight and double the power.
like triumph did.
and a stretch guzzi would be nice for 2 up touring for us big folk.
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and a stretch guzzi would be nice for 2 up touring for us big folk.
I gave up on that ever happening and added a Goldwing to the stable as the "2 wheeled minivan"..... Wife is in heaven!
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Looking at recent history BMW DID see a SPOT of success/a spike of sales with their R1200C - but EVEN BMW decided it wasn't worth continuing to pursue. HELLO, wake the frick up, if BMW can't (or won't) do it with the network of dealers they have in the US and the success they saw with the R12C, then that is a wake-up call.
Do not assume the BMW decision to stop the cruiser was an independent or even rational decison. They push hard there for cutting edge technology, something a cruiser does not usually reflect. They have marketing goals for a lot of the wierd stuff they design, and again the cruiser does not match that. Finally, if you read their stated reason for cancellation of the cruiser, well it struck many as dishonest. In short, BMW probably walked away from their curiser for large full line marketing reasons, not because the cruiser market is not a good place to be. Just not a good place for the forward edge types at BMW. I see no carry over rationale for MG.
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Terblanche made Ducatis look like clown bikes, spastic, ass in the airstyling with a quarter inch of seat padding. Just what Guzzi needs.
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The question would be why? I can see the CalVin motor being upped to 1200, but why make it bigger? It's 250lbs MINIMUM lighter than any of the metric/American cruisers. What's the point except to appeal to people that simply have to compensate for biological issues?
I'm a helluva lot more interested in the 940 coming over here. Screw anything above 1200.
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Businesses are naturally going to follow market trends. When SUV's started being >30% of all vehicles sold all of a sudden Porsche and just about everyone else had to build one. If you don't have one, you are automatically shut out of 30% of the market. Much like fashion, you aren't going to have much success if you do not have an offering for the majority of the market. You can make the world's best standard and totally dominate the market but if people stop wanting standards and that is all you have, then your business is going to suffer or at least it isn't going to grow.
So what are the dominant bikes of the day? I don't know the numbers but I would guess that the single biggest category is cruisers. Based on how many HD alone sells, I'd say that it is the dominant market and even capturing 1% or even 1/2% of it would be a big gain for Guzzi. I don't see anything wrong with Guzzi chasing the market as long as they do it in a way that is original and they don't just try and copy HD. I would hope that they still put some emphasis into ensuring the bike is fun to ride and suitable for more than Toy Drives and hanging out in front of a bar wearing assless chaps.
Unfortunately I don't have much confidence that will happen. The Norge and Stelvio are just a little too BMWish for me and I worry that the same could happen with a new cruiser. But there is also the Griso, which to me does look original and whether you like it or not, it isn't easily mistaken for anything else. Hopefully they'll choose the original route over the copy.
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Looking at recent history BMW DID see a SPOT of success/a spike of sales with their R1200C - but EVEN BMW decided it wasn't worth continuing to pursue. HELLO, wake the frick up, if BMW can't (or won't) do it with the network of dealers they have in the US and the success they saw with the R12C, then that is a wake-up call.
Do not assume the BMW decision to stop the cruiser was an independent or even rational decison. They push hard there for cutting edge technology, something a cruiser does not usually reflect. They have marketing goals for a lot of the wierd stuff they design, and again the cruiser does not match that. Finally, if you read their stated reason for cancellation of the cruiser, well it struck many as dishonest. In short, BMW probably walked away from their curiser for large full line marketing reasons, not because the cruiser market is not a good place to be. Just not a good place for the forward edge types at BMW. I see no carry over rationale for MG.
Well, from my sources at BMWNA at the time the rationale was they'd ridden that wave as far as it was going to go. I.E. after initial success, sales had dropped off dramatically and their studies said they "needed" a much larger displacement to continue to stay "comptetive" in that market.
I see plenty of carry over rationale, but then again, that's why I said it in the first place. ;)
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the idea of 1400 / 8v from the current engine sounds pretty neat. ;)
Building a huge monster with a heavy crank, extra large frame to carry it, and all the extra heat on your legs? No ::(.
Basically the Cali/EV will run rings around a RoadKing. A little more power and comfort, but don't make a wallowing two wheeled Lincoln, keep the handling, brakes and the weight off. ;-T
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Looking at recent history BMW DID see a SPOT of success/a spike of sales with their R1200C - but EVEN BMW decided it wasn't worth continuing to pursue. HELLO, wake the frick up, if BMW can't (or won't) do it with the network of dealers they have in the US and the success they saw with the R12C, then that is a wake-up call.
Do not assume the BMW decision to stop the cruiser was an independent or even rational decison. They push hard there for cutting edge technology, something a cruiser does not usually reflect. They have marketing goals for a lot of the wierd stuff they design, and again the cruiser does not match that. Finally, if you read their stated reason for cancellation of the cruiser, well it struck many as dishonest. In short, BMW probably walked away from their curiser for large full line marketing reasons, not because the cruiser market is not a good place to be. Just not a good place for the forward edge types at BMW. I see no carry over rationale for MG.
Well, from my sources at BMWNA at the time the rationale was they'd ridden that wave as far as it was going to go. I.E. after initial success, sales had dropped off dramatically and their studies said they "needed" a much larger displacement to continue to stay "comptetive" in that market.
I see plenty of carry over rationale, but then again, that's why I said it in the first place. ;)
I figured the C didn't sell because it completely missed what cruiser buyers wanted, i.e. retro look, low tech, bad ass sound. The C was one of the most ridiculous looking bikes ever IMHO and the sound it made with an aftermarket exhaust still makes me laugh. Definitely took the original idea a bit too far with that one.
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the idea of 1400 / 8v from the current engine sounds pretty neat. ;)
Building a huge monster with a heavy crank, extra large frame to carry it, and all the extra heat on your legs? No ::(.
Basically the Cali/EV will run rings around a RoadKing. A little more power and comfort, but don't make a wallowing two wheeled Lincoln, keep the handling, brakes and the weight off. ;-T
But what about all the riders who want a wallowing 840 lbs two wheeled Lincoln? There are a whole bunch of people who don't give a rats arse about light weight or handling. Heck, most could not tell you what the word "countersteer" means in the motorcycling sense. They just want to have their feet forward and up in the air while they ride. ;) I say give em what they want. - Just keep making the lighter, good handling bikes too. ;-T
MG could use a variation of the successful model that Triumph uses. They have a range of three types of motorcycles.
http://www.triumph.co.uk/usa/10259.aspx
Cruisers
Modern Classics
Urban Sports.
That way they make a bike for almost everyone.
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I figured the C didn't sell because it completely missed what cruiser buyers wanted, i.e. retro look, low tech, bad ass sound. The C was one of the most ridiculous looking bikes ever IMHO and the sound it made with an aftermarket exhaust still makes me laugh. Definitely took the original idea a bit too far with that one.
But it DID sell, it sold VERY well at first. It was actually the best selling BMW (in the US) for a couple of years after it's intro.
"Cruiser" riders can't all be lumped into loud and retro only. The Vrod may not be a best-seller, and it's been slow to be embraced, but IT DOES SELL, in numbers that would make MGNA jealous.
The 12C was innovative, and kinda cool, they rode that wave for all it was worth then cashed out once the novelty was over.
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the idea of 1400 / 8v from the current engine sounds pretty neat. ;)
Building a huge monster with a heavy crank, extra large frame to carry it, and all the extra heat on your legs? No ::(.
Basically the Cali/EV will run rings around a RoadKing. A little more power and comfort, but don't make a wallowing two wheeled Lincoln, keep the handling, brakes and the weight off. ;-T
But what about all the riders who want a wallowing 840 lbs two wheeled Lincoln? There are a whole bunch of people who don't give a rats arse about light weight or handling. Heck, most could not tell you what the word "countersteer" means in the motorcycling sense. They just want to have their feet forward and up in the air while they ride. ;) I say give em what they want. - Just keep making the lighter, good handling bikes too. ;-T
MG could use a variation of the successful model that Triumph uses. They have a range of three types of motorcycles.
http://www.triumph.co.uk/usa/10259.aspx
Cruisers
Modern Classics
Urban Sports.
That way they make a bike for almost everyone.
what about them? Not the type to shop for a Guzzi
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the idea of 1400 / 8v from the current engine sounds pretty neat. ;)
Building a huge monster with a heavy crank, extra large frame to carry it, and all the extra heat on your legs? No ::(.
Basically the Cali/EV will run rings around a RoadKing. A little more power and comfort, but don't make a wallowing two wheeled Lincoln, keep the handling, brakes and the weight off. ;-T
But what about all the riders who want a wallowing 840 lbs two wheeled Lincoln? There are a whole bunch of people who don't give a rats arse about light weight or handling. Heck, most could not tell you what the word "countersteer" means in the motorcycling sense. They just want to have their feet forward and up in the air while they ride. ;) I say give em what they want. - Just keep making the lighter, good handling bikes too. ;-T
MG could use a variation of the successful model that Triumph uses. They have a range of three types of motorcycles.
http://www.triumph.co.uk/usa/10259.aspx
Cruisers
Modern Classics
Urban Sports.
That way they make a bike for almost everyone.
what about them? Not the type to shop for a Guzzi
Really, then why are many guzzi riders interested in bigger bikes like the rocket or big bird. When i shopped it was between HD, Honda, Yamaha, Triumph and Guzzi and the Guzzi barely won out over the Triumph. Guzzi doesn't make what i want in a next bike but currently Triumph makes several.
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Makes sense, they want to sell bikes to guys who would otherwise buy another brands big cruiser.
It's not so much about putting a dent in HD, it's about maybe selling 1500-2000 Guzzis in NA, vs hundreds.
Do you really think it is that simple? i.e. if you increase the CCs they will suddenly sell 3x to 4x as many bikes in the US???
???
P:)
Well, selling 3x to 4x as many cruisers wouldn't be that big a jump: that's going from what, 2000 to 8000 bikes a year? Obviously, not in these economic times, but easy enough to do in the next boom cycle...
And increasing the displacement has proven to be a route to sales success [albeit, sometimes only temporary] in that market segment. For Guzzi esp., it may prove the right choice since getting to 1600cc in the current cases can only be done by stroking the motor, which would move the torque curve lower. [How many n00bs have come to WG only to be told "you're not riding it right, it likes to be revved!.."?]
Do I think any of this would have meaningful f/x on Guzzi's obscurity here in the US? Not at all; that problem stems from other sources than any perceived lack of displacement...
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Well, selling 3x to 4x as many cruisers wouldn't be that big a jump: that's going from what, 2000 to 8000 bikes a year? Obviously, not in these economic times, but easy enough to do in the next boom cycle...
<snip>
Do I think any of this would have meaningful f/x on Guzzi's obscurity here in the US? Not at all; that problem stems from other sources than any perceived lack of displacement...
BINGO - as you said in the last bit, without THAT change, the first COULDN'T happen -
i.e. if you don't do something meaningful about Guzzi's obscurity and dramatically increase either the number or perceived quality of dealers - then you wouldn't have the infrastructure necessary to sell thousands of bikes.
and it's not an increase from 2000, hell, wouldn't 4x BE AN INCREASE TO 2000, but still...
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Kev
Why I disagree with you is that curisers are not a novelty. No close.
BMW may have made a novelty curiser, but that is their fault. If sales fell off
it was because their curiser did not measure up.
I test rode several c's when they came out, hoping to buy one. They were not
very good for their class. They had a whicked buzz up your spine at around 3200 rpm as I recall. They had the sound of a lawn mower. They had wierd front forks that worked no better than conventional forks. Yet for all that, there were lots who gave them a try.
I believe BMW walked away from that market because it conflcted with the image they seek.
MG has a much more successful history with cruisers. Bringing them up to date, especially the ergonomics a new frame would allow, would be a big step back, IMO.
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Pan
I suspect you and I also differ on our defintion of cruisers.
TO ME - Dressers aren't cruisers, neither are MOST Dynas and until recently MOST sportsters. Those are classic, tourers and standards respectively. Softails are for sure, arguably most Vrods are some weird sub-set called power cruisers.
TO ME - a cruiser has to have forward controls, low seat heights, and lots of bling, not necessarily lots of function.
Why am I making that differentiation.
I actually do believe that at least to an extent Cruisers ARE a NOVELTY.
I see a difference in the type of riders who typically buy "CRUISERS" as I've defined them and people who would buy say a California.
The strength of Guzzis lie in a balance of form and function that I think lies solidly to to the function side of what I just described.
The buyers of those types of bikes, UNLESS they are a "power cruiser" aren't going to care if it's 1200cc or 1600cc - if anything, I think they get it and might be off-put by too much capacity.
Now maybe my own prejudices are showing through in this.
I like Harleys, but I'm having a problem with the size to which the BTs have grown.
I don't know where the line in the sand needs to be drawn, but I have a problem taking bikes that have motors as big as my wife's car seriously.
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Kev
IMO you over - define a cruiser.
Here is my take: A cruiser is a bike with an upright riding position and a relatively low center of mass. That's all.
If you hang bags etc on it, it could also be a touring bike, but the rider physical position is still cruiser. That is why the body position of a HD rider on a full dressed bagger is the same as would be on a relatively standard big twin HD.
The C BMW we discussed was therefore also a cruiser, bags and windscreen or not.
And so the Cali Guzzi's are IMO cruiser type bikes, although higher than mainstream cruisers as the Tonti frame is by nature a relatively high cg frame.
I think some of the reasons that Cali cruisers did not sell even better than they did, even if they were one of the most popular Guzzi type bikes for well over a decade, are that the ergonomics were poor compared to other cruiser type bikes, the board models had a ridiculous brake pedal, and the overall lack of dealer placement and advertising.
I would guess that a new larger mill Guzzi cruiser with better ergonomics and more adverts would do very well. What would separate MG from the Harleys and their clones would be better handling, braking, and a basically better V Twin configuration.
Just MO.
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But Pan - I don't completely disagree with what you're saying.
EXCEPT - couple of thoughts.
On your conclusion - the average Harley guy doesn't give a crap about brakes or handling and they love the fatally-flawed Harley mill so they wouldn't care how much "better" (even if they realized it) the Guzzi twin was.
And when you talk about Cruiser ergos - that's WHY I define cruiser as I do, with FORWARD CONTROLS!
I mean, an upright standard bike is NOT a cruiser.
XR1200 - NOT a cruiser
XL1200R was NOT a cruiser to me
Hell even Jenn's 1200L is not a cruiser (though it's getting close).
To me a Cruiser sacrifices a certain amount of function for forms sake.
A bagger doesn't compromise on function.
A cruiser has forwards, and a low suspension, and maybe apes (or mini apes)....
But I do admit that's my personal defintion.
and it is born from a division I see in the priorities of the riders.
I don't think that riders with the priorities that I label as cruiser are the segment that might buy a Guzzi.
That's not to say some of those who are attracted to say a Dyna or non-lowered Sportster might.
But NOT a $15k Cal-Vin vs. $12k Dyna - at least for MOST customers.
Hell, you would think $15k Cal-Vin would compare nicely to a $17k RK - but I don't think it is a lack of CCs that is hurting the Cal-Vin sales in comparison.
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I think I'll go out on a limb here and say why don't guzzi build the 1600, dress it up in goldwing style clothes with all the bells and whistles and then market it as their flagship model like honda has done with their goldwing?At least there can be no argument that it is a TOURER more than it is a cruiser.If they did that supported by better dealer backup and a good range of "personalising" accessories readily available I think guzzi may be pleasantly surprised reguarding sales. :D
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I mean, an upright standard bike is NOT a cruiser.
XR1200 - NOT a cruiser
XL1200R was NOT a cruiser to me
Hell even Jenn's 1200L is not a cruiser (though it's getting close).
To me a Cruiser sacrifices a certain amount of function for forms sake.
A bagger doesn't compromise on function.
A cruiser has forwards, and a low suspension, and maybe apes (or mini apes)....
Jeez Kev? Am I the only one who thinks that you and some others are making 'Motorbike' a bit too complicated? Who gives a fat rat's arse about what they are 'Labeled' as. They are essentially a pair of wheels with a propusive device in between 'em. There are good ones and bad ones. How many different categories, (eg. Cruiser, custom, sports, etc... ::) do people need. If we want to argue semantics? Go ahead, but surely it isn't really worth the bandwidth???
Pete
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Pete,
lol, I'm not making it complicated, I'm just over-analyzing it ;)
No seriously, isn't that how we understand things, break them down into smaller and smaller elements.
Let me focus on the rider/demographic instead of the bike.
You know I love Harleys, but a LARGE part of their success is an image that appeals to the non-rider who thinks they want to be a rider. As such a large portion of their sales (and the metrics that capitolize on the same demographic) focus on LOOKS not FUNCTION.
They focus on things that I find completely anti-guzzi -
Forward controls and gyno-exam ergos
lowered chassis with height limited suspensions
Chrome (not plastic, not cheap metal that pits)
Image
and maybe most importantly cause a significant percentage of the buyers are newbies - complete turnkey ownership with plenty of localized support.
Even if I could get over MG pandering to this crowd with the first 2 points (ergos and reduced function), I don't see them uping the quality of the chrome/materials, and I definitely don't see them with the type of turnkey ownership experience they need for THAT particular crowd.
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If I were them though I'd be spending my money on training workshop staff the world over and finding someone better then Webber-Marelli and Digitek to supply the 'Brains' and instruments and tuning the wretched things up so that they both meet emissions standards AND work well, not one or the other!
Pete
THIS !
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Even if I could get over MG pandering to this crowd with the first 2 points (ergos and reduced function), I don't see them uping the quality of the chrome/materials, and I definitely don't see them with the type of turnkey ownership experience they need for THAT particular crowd.
IMO this is your strongest point, Kev. No way they could ever provide the home team support that HD has positioned everywhere.
OTH, they would only need one or two percent of HD's cruiser market to have a big success on their hands, Guzzi relative.
If I had to pick just one really new model upon which to hang the fate of MG,
after all is said and done, it would have to be a new cruiser-touring type bike aimed
to take away a few thousand HD buyer types. My recent observations in Europe on how many
HD baggers are now running around there suggests to me that that market segment is ripe
for some Euro based competitioin. Well that is my guess anyway.
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I can understand what you're saying Pan
If I had to pin it all on one, I'd go with a bigger retro.
A Bellagio in V7 clothing - $9999, and a cafe version (could they 8V it?) for $10999
Along with dropping the V7 price to $7000 so it could at least compete for entry level business
Not that either is going to happen.
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I'd agree more with Pan's more expansive definition of a cruiser than with Kev's more restrictive one. I look upon a Road King as a cruiser. Same for the Dynas and Sportsters. Same for the Stars/Vulcans/Victorys/Viragos/ad nauseum.
Cruiser ergos are not a result of anything but reality. American buyers of cruisers want low seat heights. How do you get low seat heights and still allow for workable control positioning given American-sized people? There's one way: move 'em forward.
Without low seat heights, Guzzi will not be able to compete in the cruiser market. If they lower seat heights, they'll have to move the controls forward. This might gain them some customers, but it would also alienate just about all of us here.
And if they are going to seriously compete in the cruiser market, they will find out exactly what the Japanese and Victory and E-H. etc. have found out:
1) It isn't that easy
2) You won't really net mass success until you make your bike look and run similar enough to a Harley that it might as well be one.
As a long-time observer of what works and what doesn't in the US market, I would advise Guzzi to not even think about competing in the cruiser market.
Cal III and on Calis have always been styled as cruisers but have always functioned as very competent "standards."
I'd rather see Guzzi drop the silly pretense of cruiser-ism and just make an excellent standard with unique style yet modern function. I think the Nuovo Tonti frame of the Bellagio is the place to start. Modify the front downtubes to allow the belt-driven alternator, though, so it has enough electrical capacity for the modern rider. Then make it look like a bike only Guzzi could design. Ultimately, I think that'd net more sales.
Alternatively, do what Ducati did and pump up the small-blocks. The Tontino frame could be beefed up a bit to soldier on. I'm not sure what potential there is in the motor, but certainly there is some, especially if they ditched the heron heads and made it a high-cam.
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I think I'm with Greg on this...
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I think I'm with Greg on this...
Me, too...
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Listen, a Cali only looks like a "Cruiser". Actually, it's a cop bike. That means it corners and brakes. It as the same carrying capacity as Harley Glide but weighs 200 lb less. Yeah, it doesn't have a lot of power, but performs beyond it's styling once it's going.
Before I found the Guzzi I was looking for a two-up bike. I've ridden many of the Metric and Harley cruisers with touring packs. Let me tell ya, the first steep turn and the Road King is scraping it's floor boards. The Beemer C bike? Same thing. The new Japanese cruisers are heavier than many Harley's. Gold Wing might be good, but look at the price.
My EV has normal riding position, no legs-forward deal. It handles, brakes, has ground clearance. The EV would be almost perfect it had 30 more hp, lower gearing, 6 speed, factory faring, and bigger alternator & elec do dads. But I wouldn't give up the handing and sportiness to get there.
1600 bike would likely be a monster in size and drive a Buick. Now a 1400 version of the existing package, 8v, and little weight gain, that sounds like a nicely balanced piece.
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Well, you guys wanted bigger. You got bigger. California 1400 coming in Milano. Darn, no pictures yet.
Moto Guzzi California 1400
Arriverà nel 2010 con un motore V2 millequattro
La Moto Guzzi California 1400, spinta da un rinnovato motore V2 trasversale, otto valvole, dovrebbe essere tra i modelli più interessanti che Moto Guzzi presenterà al prossimo Salone di Milano 2009: si tratta di un modello 2010 molto atteso dagli appassionati dell'Aquila di Mandello, non solo perchè tra i più venduti dell'intera gamma ma soprattutto perchè rappresenta un po' l'anello di congiunzione tra la Moto Guzzi del passato e quella più moderna, fatta di moto estremamente interessanti sotto il profilotecnico ed estetico.
Il nuovo motore, che condividerà la classica architettura a V di 90° con albero motore disposto longitudinalmente, condividerà con i modelli più recenti la trasmissione a cardano CARC, la tecnologia di distribuzione a quattro valvoleper cilindro. Non si tratterà, in ogni caso, di un aumento della cilindrata studiato con il semplice fine di cercare più potenza massima, anche perchè aivari allestimenti California non servono molti più dei 73.4 CV attualmente erogati dal V2 da 1.064 cc., ma più semplicemente un massiccio aumento della coppia motrice ai medi regimi.
Lo stesso motore sarà invece chiamato a tirare fuori le unghie quando sarà installato su moto dal tono più sportivo o gran turismo ancor più toste della Norge: 125 CV potrebbero essere tranquillamente alla portata di un motore di questa cubatura. Un valore con il quale i tecnici Moto Guzzi non sono mai arrivati a confrontarsi sino ad oggi, se non nel caso della MGS, e che permetterà di andare ad esplorare nuovi confini in termini di tipologia di prodotto.
Grande e grossa come l'attuale, in particolar modo nell'allestimento Vintage, la California 2010 sarà completamente rivista e corretta rispetto al modello attuale: l'impostazione stilistica rimarrà quella della classica custom all'italiana, ma siamo certi che le novità interessanti non mancheranno.
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Do you have it in English?
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Do you have it in English?
A new California sporting CARC and a bumped out to 1400cc version of the current big block will be on the podium in Milan at EICMA.
That's been predicted for about a year. It'll be interesting to see what they did with the styling... Eldo/Ambo or HD/Clone ?
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Oh, and they're saying that the new motor "could be" capable of 125hp... :D
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Pictures yes pictures an more pictures is it coming across the pond to the good ole USA an when
Gary
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My Valkyrie, usually disdainful of new cruiser introductions, is a bit concerned.
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Do you have it in English?
Well this is what the internet translates into english:
Movement Guzzi California 1400 Will Arrive in 2010 with an engine V2 millequattro
The Movement Guzzi California 1400, pushed from a renewed engine V2 transversal, eight valves, would have to be between the models more interesting that Movement Guzzi will present to the next Lounge of Milan 2009: it is discussed of a model 2010 very long-awaited from the fascinated some eagle of Mandello, not only because between the most sold of the whole range but above all because represents a little one the ring of conjunction between the Movement Modern, done of movement extremely interesting under the profilotecnico and aesthetic.
The new engine, that will share the classic architecture to V of 90° with crankshaft arranged lengthwise, will share with the most recent models the transmission to card CARC, the technology of distribution to four valvoleper cylinder. It will not be treated, at any rate, of an increase of the rolled studied with the simple end of to seek more greatest power, also because aivari preparations California do not serve a lot more of 73,4 HP at present distributed from the V2 from 1,064 cc., but more simply a bulky increase of the couple engine to the middle regimes.
The same engine instead will be called to pull out of the nails when will be installed on movement from the sportiest tone or big tourism even more immediately of the Norge: 125 HP would be able to be calmly to the course of an engine of this cubic capacity. A value with which the technical Movement Guzzi never arrived to confront itself since to today, if not in the case of the MGS, and that will allow to go to explore new boundaries in product of typology of limits.
Large and gross like the present, in particolar manner in the preparation Vintage, the California 2010 completely will be reviewed and correct with respect to the present model: the stylistic mailing will will remain that of the classic custom to the Italian, but we are certain that the interesting novelty will not be lacking.
But do notice that last paragraph. I quote: " Large and gross like the present...." I hope the Italian translators do a better job in the marketing department lest we want Guzzi to go the Buell way. ::)
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^^^ Well that certainly clears it up.
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Maybe they bolted two V7c engines together
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Here's my "translation":
Moto Guzzi California 1400 Will Arrive in 2010 with a V2 millequattro engine.
The Moto Guzzi California 1400, pushed by a renewed transverse V2 engine with eight valves, will be between more interesting models that Moto Guzzi will present to the next Lounge of Milan 2009: it is discussed that a 2010 model, very long-awaited from the eagle of Mandello, will replace the most sold model of the whole range. Above all this new model represents a little ring of conjunction between the modern moto and those of old, done extremely interesting with proficiency and with a nice aesthetic.
The new engine, that will share the classic architecture of the V of 90° with legnthwise-arranged crankshaft, will share with the most recent models the transmission and CARC, and the technology of the four valve per cylinder heads.
The same engine will be called to "pull out the stops" when will be installed in a Moto Guzzi of the sportiest tone, or big tourer even more capable than the Norge: 125 HP would be easily attainable in an engine of this cubic capacity. Something which Moto Guzzi has never attained, except in the case of the MGS, and that will allow Moto Guzzi to explore new boundaries in product "typology" limits.
Large like the California Vintage, the California 2010 will be completely correct with respect to the present model: the style will remain that of the classic custom Italian motorcycle, but we are certain that this interesting motorcycle will not be lacking.
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Maybe they bolted two V7c engines together
Nah, that would be an underpowered catamaran.
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Sounds like what I saw pictures of at the dealer meeting.
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MMMMMM,sounds very tasty,maybe now that they intend to play with the big boys(road king,electraglide,goldwing etc)mandello might consider producing some accessories to personalise it(instead of the "what you see is what you get" way of thinking)and hopefully they put some more thought into the design and quality of the bike(given the usual recalls of the previous models that has been released),besides I can't wait to see what colour it will be.
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Sweet!
I'm ready to check it out. Could Moto Guzzi be so bold as to bring back the signature color of all time, Gialo Sole? ;)
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So when is the EICMA show in Milan?
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Sounds like what I saw pictures of at the dealer meeting.
Bellagio-based, or did they get a real alternator on the things?
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So when is the EICMA show in Milan?
Nov. 10-15, 2009
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I hope it's not a 700 - 800 lb behemoth
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Sounds like what I saw pictures of at the dealer meeting.
Bellagio-based, or did they get a real alternator on the things?
Frame looked Griso based. Has the big alternator.
EDIT: Reading back on that description, they might be talking about another bike. The description includes one feature that the bike we were shown definitely did not have. Could be the describer isn't a keen observer, though.
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Sounds like what I saw pictures of at the dealer meeting.
Bellagio-based, or did they get a real alternator on the things?
Frame looked Griso based. Has the big alternator.
EDIT: Reading back on that description, they might be talking about another bike. The description includes one feature that the bike we were shown definitely did not have. Could be the describer isn't a keen observer, though.
Besides the hp comparison to the MGS, this article is about the new 1400 California only, and how the engine may be used to bring out a real sport bike or more powerful tourer down the road.
I hope Piaggio continues down this road in order to pretend Guzzi is still alive, looks very interesting.
AlexM
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Maybe they bolted two V7c engines together
oo-oo, water-cooled transverse vee-four.
Haven't seen one of those since the Euro Ford/ SAAB 96 engine. Bullet-proof old hoor, if you don't count the sprague clutch.
Bring the displacement per cylinder down a little (say 350 cc) and you'd have a pretty smooth little motor.
With watercooling, you might actually get it short enough to work.
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I go to the EICMA on 10th and I am very eager to see what they have done. The most important question for me is, if the new bike has ABS System. If it has, I will order one.
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I go to the EICMA on 10th and I am very eager to see what they have done. The most important question for me is, if the new bike has ABS System. If it has, I will order one.
And so you will be reporting directly back to us with pics! :o
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That would be a requirement I should say ;)
:PICS!: :PICS!: :PICS!: :PICS!:
Your posts/pictures will be the most studies posts on the board :P
Ciao
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with pleasure, of course.
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Maybe they bolted two V7c engines together
oo-oo, water-cooled transverse vee-four.
Haven't seen one of those since the Euro Ford/ SAAB 96 engine. Bullet-proof old hoor, if you don't count the sprague clutch.
Had two of those. The last one eventually rusted into two pieces (the car not the motor) as a result of Michigan winter salt. As I recall the motor was a Ford 292 V-8 sawed in half. Rumor had it that the motor was adapted from an industrial engine used to pump water from Dutch windmills. Now THAT's an agricultural heritage for a vehicle.
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A California w/ the Big Bore kit like the BB1 most likely.
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MMMMMM,sounds very tasty,maybe now that they intend to play with the big boys(road king,electraglide,goldwing etc)mandello might consider producing some accessories to personalise it(instead of the "what you see is what you get" way of thinking)and hopefully they put some more thought into the design and quality of the bike(given the usual recalls of the previous models that has been released),besides I can't wait to see what colour it will be.
Actually, at 1400cc's, it would hardly be in the "big cruiser" league defined by the examples above. Not meant as a criticism by any means, but when I bought my 1520cc Valkyrie in 2002, it was still considered to be a HUGE engine, surpassed at that time only by the VTX and the then new GoldWing. Now, anything under 1600cc's is in the "mid-size" cruiser segment.
But keep the weight under 700 lbs and the MSRP under $16K, give it an easily detachable windscreen and passenger backrest, allow for luggage that looks well integrated into the design, emphasize its handling, and it may attract some interest from a market segment that hasn't considered a Guzzi.
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Maybe they bolted two V7c engines together
oo-oo, water-cooled transverse vee-four.
Haven't seen one of those since the Euro Ford/ SAAB 96 engine. Bullet-proof old hoor, if you don't count the sprague clutch.
Had two of those. The last one eventually rusted into two pieces (the car not the motor) as a result of Michigan winter salt. As I recall the motor was a Ford 292 V-8 sawed in half. Rumor had it that the motor was adapted from an industrial engine used to pump water from Dutch windmills. Now THAT's an agricultural heritage for a vehicle.
I too understand that it was (a) half a small block Ford (front half, I suppose, unlike the later SAAB 99 canted motor, which was the right half of a Rover 3500 V8 IIRC) and (b) indeed was an industrial motor typically used for water pumps (also welders, hydraulic power units, etc).
The ONLY problems with that car were the fiber cam gear (cheap and easy to replace, typically at 100K miles) and the idiotic sprague clutch, which was a hold-over from the 2-stroke (3 cyl) motor (I had one of the last Saab "Shrike" 95 wagons; truly a horrible auto. Shrikes are birds that eat Beetles, get it?).
On the 2-stroke the sprague clutch allowed you to keep the revs up around corners, but the V4 had a great torque curve, so the only logic for keeping it was to prevent folks from losing front traction during engine braking. With the engine cantilevered out over the front wheels, this wasn't likely to happen, and the sprague clutch was just an expensive achilles heel. If you could keep the body together (preferred technique: undercoat with used motor oil every fall, especially inside the rocker panels) that car would easily do 250K without pulling the heads.
Never heard the Dutch part of the story, but sounds plausible, as it was a German Ford motor.
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I had a Saab 96 and heard the V4 came from an English tractor.
And if you want a V4 motorcycle, buy a frikkin Honda. The new VFR1200 has more bells and whistles than poor Guzzi could ever have.
Now let us go back to our anachronisms.
Greg - A Griso style frame on a Cali? The mind boggles.
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Hope it has a realistic fuel tank.
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Greg - A Griso style frame on a Cali? The mind boggles.
Yes, but with a feature I am not allowed to discuss. That's a hell of a good frame. And it's long. The Stelvio frame is based upon the Griso, too. Basically, once the current Calis are done, there're four Guzzi frames: the Nuovo Tonti (Bellagio, which is the Tonti frame adapted to CARC), Tontino ("little Tonti" B750, N750, V7C), the B1100 frame (B11, Sp12, N12, all with intake under the tank), and Griso (G11, G12, St12, all with intake under the seat). Then, what might come next.
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oo-oo, water-cooled transverse vee-four.
Haven't seen one of those since the Euro Ford/ SAAB 96 engine. Bullet-proof old hoor, if you don't count the sprague clutch.
which rock have you been under for the last twenty years? What is the ST 1000/1200 Honda if not a watercooled, transverse V4? :D
Pete
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Maybe they bolted two V7c engines together
oo-oo, water-cooled transverse vee-four.
Haven't seen one of those since the Euro Ford/ SAAB 96 engine. Bullet-proof old hoor, if you don't count the sprague clutch.
Had two of those. The last one eventually rusted into two pieces (the car not the motor) as a result of Michigan winter salt. As I recall the motor was a Ford 292 V-8 sawed in half. Rumor had it that the motor was adapted from an industrial engine used to pump water from Dutch windmills. Now THAT's an agricultural heritage for a vehicle.
The Ford V4 "Essex" engine was fitted to a van called a Transit, I had one it was junk. The motor was forever blowing head gaskets and flooding the cab with water. You also seemed to lose synchro on the gearbox on many of them.
It was too low powered for some versions. A "Luton" Transit with the load area extending over the cab would only reach 50mph on a good day.
I don't know how it went elsewhere, but in the UK I reckon it was one of the worst engines and gearbox combinations Ford ever used.
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Sweet!
I'm ready to check it out. Could Moto Guzzi be so bold as to bring back the signature color of all time, Gialo Sole? ;)
if you look at the parts manual, that's what they are calling the color of the V7 Cafe Classic.
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Sweet!
I'm ready to check it out. Could Moto Guzzi be so bold as to bring back the signature color of all time, Gialo Sole? ;)
if you look at the parts manual, that's what they are calling the color of the V7 Cafe Classic.
Sun Yellow?
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Sweet!
I'm ready to check it out. Could Moto Guzzi be so bold as to bring back the signature color of all time, Gialo Sole? ;)
if you look at the parts manual, that's what they are calling the color of the V7 Cafe Classic.
Sun Yellow?
Really. From V7 Cafe Classic parts manual, pg 12:
"Fuel tank, yellow - - AUS-EU-J-UK - y.so. 97892800XG4 1 DA009"
y.so. = yellow solar
Or, to find out another way:
Go to the V7 Cafe Classic page on the Moto Guzzi Italian site
http://www.motoguzzi.it/it_IT/prodotti/listino_prezzi/configurator_step2.aspx?id=206
then, go to the little boxes that show the choices, either white or "legnano", which is what the text calls the green color. Hold your cursor over the green without clicking, and "Giallo Solaris" pops up.
The white is called "Bianco Diamante"
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Sweet!
I'm ready to check it out. Could Moto Guzzi be so bold as to bring back the signature color of all time, Gialo Sole? ;)
if you look at the parts manual, that's what they are calling the color of the V7 Cafe Classic.
Sun Yellow?
Really. From V7 Cafe Classic parts manual, pg 12:
"Fuel tank, yellow - - AUS-EU-J-UK - y.so. 97892800XG4 1 DA009"
y.so. = yellow solar
Or, to find out another way:
Go to the V7 Cafe Classic page on the Moto Guzzi Italian site
http://www.motoguzzi.it/it_IT/prodotti/listino_prezzi/configurator_step2.aspx?id=206
then, go to the little boxes that show the choices, either white or "legnano", which is what the text calls the green color. Hold your cursor over the green without clicking, and "Giallo Solaris" pops up.
The white is called "Bianco Diamante"
Thanks for the insight!
I guess the sun comes in all colors? ;)
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yup. Must have been a very odd day in Mandello when that was named.
d
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[/quote]
Actually, at 1400cc's, it would hardly be in the "big cruiser" league defined by the examples above. Not meant as a criticism by any means, but when I bought my 1520cc Valkyrie in 2002, it was still considered to be a HUGE engine, surpassed at that time only by the VTX and the then new GoldWing. Now, anything under 1600cc's is in the "mid-size" cruiser segment.
But keep the weight under 700 lbs and the MSRP under $16K, give it an easily detachable windscreen and passenger backrest, allow for luggage that looks well integrated into the design, emphasize its handling, and it may attract some interest from a market segment that hasn't considered a Guzzi.
[/quote]The california cruiser is far from obsolete,let's call it "evolution".Give it a few years and it will be up there with the best of them although the frame may have to be lenthened a mite to allow for the bigger pots.
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The california cruiser is far from obsolete,let's call it "evolution".
Give it a few years and it will be up there with the best of them although the frame may have to be lenthened a mite to allow for the bigger pots.
Huh?
You want to expand on that thought?
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The california is finally growing up (slowly).If this model is successful market wise then who knows it could even be made bigger,say a 1600 or even an 1800,fit a full fairing and all the bells and whistles and market it as their flagship model like the goldwing.
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If this model is successful market wise then who knows it could even be made bigger,say a 1600 or even an 1800,fit a full fairing and all the bells and whistles and market it as their flagship model like the goldwing.
ICK ::(
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If this model is successful market wise then who knows it could even be made bigger,say a 1600 or even an 1800,fit a full fairing and all the bells and whistles and market it as their flagship model like the goldwing.
ICK ::(
Some might say ick Kev but they could carry on with the other cali variants like the stone,alloy etc and just make the top of the range cali into their flagship, that would give buyers a better choice in the cruiser range.JMHO ;D
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If this model is successful market wise then who knows it could even be made bigger,say a 1600 or even an 1800,fit a full fairing and all the bells and whistles and market it as their flagship model like the goldwing.
ICK ::(
Some might say ick Kev but they could carry on with the other cali variants like the stone,alloy etc and just make the top of the range cali into their flagship, that would give buyers a better choice in the cruiser range.JMHO ;D
No to me the ICK really starts with the size 1400, 1600 or 1800 is a small car not a bike (TO ME).
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If this model is successful market wise then who knows it could even be made bigger,say a 1600 or even an 1800,fit a full fairing and all the bells and whistles and market it as their flagship model like the goldwing.
ICK ::(
Some might say ick Kev but they could carry on with the other cali variants like the stone,alloy etc and just make the top of the range cali into their flagship, that would give buyers a better choice in the cruiser range.JMHO ;D
No to me the ICK really starts with the size 1400, 1600 or 1800 is a small car not a bike (TO ME).
Maybe just stick with the 1100 with all the bells and whistles,would that work?
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Tony - I don't doubt that there are people out there who want the bells and whistles and those types may want the 1400, 1600 or 1800...
...me, I'd be happy with the Bellagio, or with an 1100 or 1200cc 2V Cali - but I'm funny that way, I know what I need and excess is just excess.
Ya know what bells and whistles I like? I dig the clocks, temperature gauges and trip computers, maybe some easy accessories, an externally mounted oil filter and a decent alternator.
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No to me the ICK really starts with the size 1400, 1600 or 1800 is a small car not a bike (TO ME).
That's right, to you! No need to deny motorcyclists their legitimate need for power, in case they're out there in the wind or something. Or maybe really big guys who have trouble on the hills.
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The california is finally growing up (slowly).If this model is successful market wise then who knows it could even be made bigger,say a 1600 or even an 1800,fit a full fairing and all the bells and whistles and market it as their flagship model like the goldwing.
I curse the day that there is a "Moto Guzzi" in the same market niche as a Goldwing.
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No to me the ICK really starts with the size 1400, 1600 or 1800 is a small car not a bike (TO ME).
That's right, to you! No need to deny motorcyclists their legitimate need for power, in case they're out there in the wind or something. Or maybe really big guys who have trouble on the hills.
Thing is, if that's what the need/want, there are already plenty of options that cater to that taste.
As some point, perhaps attempting to meet such demands may stray too much from what makes a Guzzi special...
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That's right, to you! No need to deny motorcyclists their legitimate need for power, in case they're out there in the wind or something. Or maybe really big guys who have trouble on the hills.
How big do you have to be to have trouble going up hills ? I'm pretty big, and my 850 T does just fine. If a really big guy means 300 + lbs., running a couple laps around the block a few times a week might offset the need for those exta cubic centimeters. ;D
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The california cruiser is far from obsolete,let's call it "evolution".Give it a few years and it will be up there with the best of them although the frame may have to be lenthened a mite to allow for the bigger pots.
Are you talking about the engine or the rider? I'm under the impression that the displacement growth in cruisers is a result of the displacement growth of their market.
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A new Guzzi of l400 or l500 cc displacement, equipped like a Valkyrie Interstate less 350 lbs. of weight would be just what I would
want.. matching equipment fore and aft, a stylish bike with style less the bulk of the Interstate...Perfec t in my opinion....a long
distance cruiser with everything you need, and still a guzzi...like those full faired models in the l990s or so....Cal IIIs only complete.
And with a damn outside oil filter so we can change our oil quickly and filter at the same time....thanks...
Rich EV
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A new Guzzi of l400 or l500 cc displacement, equipped like a Valkyrie Interstate less 350 lbs. of weight would be just what I would
want.. matching equipment fore and aft, a stylish bike with style less the bulk of the Interstate...Perfec t in my opinion....a long
distance cruiser with everything you need, and still a guzzi...like those full faired models in the l990s or so....Cal IIIs only complete.
And with a damn outside oil filter so we can change our oil quickly and filter at the same time....thanks...
Rich EV
I share the desire. Have to say, though, that shaving 350lbs off the weight of the Valk would be difficult. My guess is that 600+ lbs would be the lower limit. Bikes, much like the rest of us, have put on weight over the last thirty years, or so, that's difficult to shed.
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That's right, to you! No need to deny motorcyclists their legitimate need for power, in case they're out there in the wind or something. Or maybe really big guys who have trouble on the hills.
How big do you have to be to have trouble going up hills ? I'm pretty big, and my 850 T does just fine. If a really big guy means 300 + lbs., running a couple laps around the block a few times a week might offset the need for those exta cubic centimeters. ;D
Well, I really was only kind of poking fun at the people here who seem to feel Moto Guzzi will never get anywhere with motorcycles based on their inadequately powerful 750 small block. But sure, sometimes you see some pretty big guys on motorcycles. Maybe Moto Guzzi has been looking at actuarial statistics.
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1400 sounds cool on it's face, but my 1056 Stone does just fine. Plenty of power rides well after sorting- what's more to want? I regularly "outperform" my buddies.
All I'd be looking for to opt out of the Stone before 100,000 would be a stronger alternator, more low end torque ( re: Harley) and better feedback thru instrumentation - beyond these my Stone makes me happy on the 700 mile days.
The big-un has to show me something very substantially different to cause me to look at moving to a newer model before this one is worn out.
I'm glad that the Guzzi minds are looking for market share thru cc's - we need the presence, but for those of us that are happy with Guzzi's, it's hard to preach to the choir when we're singing.
Walt
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1056 Stone?
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No to me the ICK really starts with the size 1400, 1600 or 1800 is a small car not a bike (TO ME).
That's right, to you! No need to deny motorcyclists their legitimate need for power, in case they're out there in the wind or something. Or maybe really big guys who have trouble on the hills.
Thing is, if that's what the need/want, there are already plenty of options that cater to that taste.
As some point, perhaps attempting to meet such demands may stray too much from what makes a Guzzi special...
Or, God forbid, make them successful. ;-T
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No to me the ICK really starts with the size 1400, 1600 or 1800 is a small car not a bike (TO ME).
That's right, to you! No need to deny motorcyclists their legitimate need for power, in case they're out there in the wind or something. Or maybe really big guys who have trouble on the hills.
Thing is, if that's what the need/want, there are already plenty of options that cater to that taste.
As some point, perhaps attempting to meet such demands may stray too much from what makes a Guzzi special...
Or, God forbid, make them successful. ;-T
Or God Forbid, make them the same as everyone else ::)
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(http://s3.amazonaws.com/advrider/lol8.gif)
Tri-colore assless chaps... I know a few wimmins I'd like to see in those!!!
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Maybe they bolted two V7c engines together
oo-oo, water-cooled transverse vee-four.
Haven't seen one of those since the Euro Ford/ SAAB 96 engine. Bullet-proof old hoor, if you don't count the sprague clutch.
Bring the displacement per cylinder down a little (say 350 cc) and you'd have a pretty smooth little motor.
With watercooling, you might actually get it short enough to work.
Umm, I believe we're describing the power plant in the Honda ST1100 and ST1300. And they are dandy engines. I just hope if Guzzi makes it they don't hide it under a lot of plastic. Oh, and they should make it with more "soul" ( It's bound to have more "character" just cause it's a Guzzi.)
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Er,I think we are getting off the beaten track a bit.I did say in my original post that the "goldwing' type version should be marketed as their FLAGSHIP model,in other words still make the naked versions of the cali to complement the flash one(that way in theory it should keep just about every one happy)cos I know myelf that in 15-20 years time I'll be looking for a comfy tourer with all the gears.
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I can't see the need for 1400 0r 1500cc.
Why not just produce a Cali with the Bellagio frame and the 4V 1200 engine?
Enough power and it would make a good tourer.
I don't want to see Guzzi produce a Gold wing or anything near it, excess for the sake of it just isn't the way Guzzi do things.
I don't want to spend ages finding out what about 20 or 30 different buttons do before I ride.
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Photos showed me leads me to believe that Piaggio is smart enough to know that the new machine must have the larger alternator. That means the new machine cannot be based on the Bellagio, which has a frame that disallows this feature. All of the rest falls out from there.
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I can't see the need for 1400 0r 1500cc.
Why not just produce a Cali with the Bellagio frame and the 4V 1200 engine?
I was hoping they would do that the first time I saw the Bellagio. Guzzi will never make a bike that would appeal to the Goldwing crowd unless it was at least 4 cylinders, 1400 ccs and a larger more comfortable ride. They could make a bike to better compete with with the Beemer RT with just a few changes to the Norge like an integrated trunk with better passenger accommodations. For one up touring the Norge or EV is all you need but to take two people on 10,000 mile rides you need something with more space and luggage capacity, unless you are 19. Then a sportbike and knapsack will do. ;)
Pete
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I think Moto Guzzi is going in the right direction with a 1400cc machine. Take a look at the competition, Harleys and Japanese tourers are all larger that that. For example, Kawasaki released their new "flagship" in 2009. Check out their marketing hype below. Large engines are what riders want so Guzzi should try to capture some of this market.
2010 Kawasaki Vulcan 1700 Voyager ABS
Built for the touring rider who has to have it all—and look good having it…
Flagship of the Vulcan® 1700 family, the Kawasaki Vulcan 1700 Voyager® and Voyager ABS come equipped with everything the serious touring rider needs to pile on the miles in comfort and style: a large frame-mounted fairing, amazing storage capacity, a sculpted touring seat, electronic cruise control, a premium sound system and a powerful long-stroke 1700cc, liquid-cooled, 52° V-Twin
(http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2010models/2010-Kawasaki-Vulcan1700Voyagerc.jpg)
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I think Moto Guzzi is going in the right direction with a 1400cc machine. Take a look at the competition, Harleys and Japanese tourers are all larger that that. For example, Kawasaki released their new "flagship" in 2009. Check out their marketing hype below. Large engines are what riders want so Guzzi should try to capture some of this market.
2010 Kawasaki Vulcan 1700 Voyager ABS
Built for the touring rider who has to have it all—and look good having it…
Flagship of the Vulcan® 1700 family, the Kawasaki Vulcan 1700 Voyager® and Voyager ABS come equipped with everything the serious touring rider needs to pile on the miles in comfort and style: a large frame-mounted fairing, amazing storage capacity, a sculpted touring seat, electronic cruise control, a premium sound system and a powerful long-stroke 1700cc, liquid-cooled, 52° V-Twin
(http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2010models/2010-Kawasaki-Vulcan1700Voyagerc.jpg)
Would I have to wear that costume if I ride one?
Dean
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I think Moto Guzzi is going in the right direction with a 1400cc machine. Take a look at the competition, Harleys and Japanese tourers are all larger that that. For example, Kawasaki released their new "flagship" in 2009. Check out their marketing hype below. Large engines are what riders want so Guzzi should try to capture some of this market.
2010 Kawasaki Vulcan 1700 Voyager ABS
Built for the touring rider who has to have it all—and look good having it…
Flagship of the Vulcan® 1700 family, the Kawasaki Vulcan 1700 Voyager® and Voyager ABS come equipped with everything the serious touring rider needs to pile on the miles in comfort and style: a large frame-mounted fairing, amazing storage capacity, a sculpted touring seat, electronic cruise control, a premium sound system and a powerful long-stroke 1700cc, liquid-cooled, 52° V-Twin
(http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2010models/2010-Kawasaki-Vulcan1700Voyagerc.jpg)
Would I have to wear that costume if I ride one?
Dean
Every bike will include a pair of tri-color ass-less chaps :D
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I`d think that new 1400 8 valve motor would be very competitive regarding torque and hp as compared to the large cruisers out there. Too many folks ( not so much on this board ) are caught up with the size matters issues. No cruiser can hustle thru the curves or twisties like a guzzi without shedding weight, metal bits sparks etc.
The thought of that power plant in a sportier chassis, say a larger version of the V7 Cafe or maybe something even sportier is sure enticing.....
exciting times !<divclass="msgbox">Nofilesuploaded!</div>
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I can't see the need for 1400 0r 1500cc.
Why not just produce a Cali with the Bellagio frame and the 4V 1200 engine?
Enough power and it would make a good tourer.
I don't want to see Guzzi produce a Gold wing or anything near it, excess for the sake of it just isn't the way Guzzi do things.
I don't want to spend ages finding out what about 20 or 30 different buttons do before I ride.
I doubt that 90%+ of current Guzzi owners "see the need for 1400 or 1500 cc's," especially them fancy Europeans that show up here. ;) Such folks, however, are obviously not the primary target market for such a bike. It's us overweight Americans who believe bigger is always better and for whom an 1100cc cruiser is a "midsize" bike that Guzzi is hoping to interest, I assume.
I'd be very surprised, however, to see MG try to emulate the Gold Wing in terms of looks or technological doo-dads. That's a market that Honda owns lock, stock, and barrel. And no effort to add buttons is going to overcome the advantage Honda has in terms of that amazing six cylinder GW engine.
What MG does have a chance of capturing, however, is the same market segment Triumph hopes to get with the new Thunderbird with a bias toward touring over bar hopping. As Greg notes, having an electrical system capable of running accessories is critical in that regard. So is a traditional look. And in that MG may have an advantage over Triumph in not having to hide a radiator somewhere. (A careful examination of the Thunderbird suggests Triumph spent considerable effort in diverting attention away from that component.)
Personally, I hope MG sells every example they can manufacture. The "halo effect" of a CalVin 1400 is likely to be substantial, I think. And since Aprilia has nothing at all in that market segment, I think it suggests a very smart corporate strategy.
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I can't see the need for 1400 0r 1500cc.
Why not just produce a Cali with the Bellagio frame and the 4V 1200 engine?
Enough power and it would make a good tourer.
I don't want to see Guzzi produce a Gold wing or anything near it, excess for the sake of it just isn't the way Guzzi do things.
I don't want to spend ages finding out what about 20 or 30 different buttons do before I ride.
I doubt that 90%+ of current Guzzi owners "see the need for 1400 or 1500 cc's," especially them fancy Europeans that show up here. ;) Such folks, however, are obviously not the primary target market for such a bike. It's us overweight Americans who believe bigger is always better and for whom an 1100cc cruiser is a "midsize" bike that Guzzi is hoping to interest, I assume.
I'd be very surprised, however, to see MG try to emulate the Gold Wing in terms of looks or technological doo-dads. That's a market that Honda owns lock, stock, and barrel. And no effort to add buttons is going to overcome the advantage Honda has in terms of that amazing six cylinder GW engine.
What MG does have a chance of capturing, however, is the same market segment Triumph hopes to get with the new Thunderbird with a bias toward touring over bar hopping. As Greg notes, having an electrical system capable of running accessories is critical in that regard. So is a traditional look. And in that MG may have an advantage over Triumph in not having to hide a radiator somewhere. (A careful examination of the Thunderbird suggests Triumph spent considerable effort in diverting attention away from that component.)
Personally, I hope MG sells every example they can manufacture. The "halo effect" of a CalVin 1400 is likely to be substantial, I think. And since Aprilia has nothing at all in that market segment, I think it suggests a very smart corporate strategy.
This makes sense to me, the Thunderbird is attracting a lot of attention and it is an area Guzzi could compete in.
OK if the 1400 turns out like that, I won't object. As long as it isn't a fat and thirsty, I want at least 46mpg (imp), I would prefer 50.
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I can't see the need for 1400 0r 1500cc.
Why not just produce a Cali with the Bellagio frame and the 4V 1200 engine?
Enough power and it would make a good tourer.
I don't want to see Guzzi produce a Gold wing or anything near it, excess for the sake of it just isn't the way Guzzi do things.
I don't want to spend ages finding out what about 20 or 30 different buttons do before I ride.
I doubt that 90%+ of current Guzzi owners "see the need for 1400 or 1500 cc's," especially them fancy Europeans that show up here. ;) Such folks, however, are obviously not the primary target market for such a bike. It's us overweight Americans who believe bigger is always better and for whom an 1100cc cruiser is a "midsize" bike that Guzzi is hoping to interest, I assume.
I'd be very surprised, however, to see MG try to emulate the Gold Wing in terms of looks or technological doo-dads. That's a market that Honda owns lock, stock, and barrel. And no effort to add buttons is going to overcome the advantage Honda has in terms of that amazing six cylinder GW engine.
What MG does have a chance of capturing, however, is the same market segment Triumph hopes to get with the new Thunderbird with a bias toward touring over bar hopping. As Greg notes, having an electrical system capable of running accessories is critical in that regard. So is a traditional look. And in that MG may have an advantage over Triumph in not having to hide a radiator somewhere. (A careful examination of the Thunderbird suggests Triumph spent considerable effort in diverting attention away from that component.)
Personally, I hope MG sells every example they can manufacture. The "halo effect" of a CalVin 1400 is likely to be substantial, I think. And since Aprilia has nothing at all in that market segment, I think it suggests a very smart corporate strategy.
Lets see they only build 7,000 bike a year and only 10% of those come over here. So how do we think that we could convince them to build the GUZZI equvilent of a Wing or something I surely don't want. My EV is a great touring machine why do I need a 1600cc Winnebago? Wait does it come with a Teddy Bear and matching satin jackets.
Dean
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teddy bear and satin jacket. lol. ;D ;-T
i'll take mine in an 1800 trike. now only if they could flip the engine around so it was pointing the right way.
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I can't see the need for 1400 0r 1500cc.
Why not just produce a Cali with the Bellagio frame and the 4V 1200 engine?
Enough power and it would make a good tourer.
I don't want to see Guzzi produce a Gold wing or anything near it, excess for the sake of it just isn't the way Guzzi do things.
I don't want to spend ages finding out what about 20 or 30 different buttons do before I ride.
I doubt that 90%+ of current Guzzi owners "see the need for 1400 or 1500 cc's," especially them fancy Europeans that show up here. ;) Such folks, however, are obviously not the primary target market for such a bike. It's us overweight Americans who believe bigger is always better and for whom an 1100cc cruiser is a "midsize" bike that Guzzi is hoping to interest, I assume.
I'd be very surprised, however, to see MG try to emulate the Gold Wing in terms of looks or technological doo-dads. That's a market that Honda owns lock, stock, and barrel. And no effort to add buttons is going to overcome the advantage Honda has in terms of that amazing six cylinder GW engine.
What MG does have a chance of capturing, however, is the same market segment Triumph hopes to get with the new Thunderbird with a bias toward touring over bar hopping. As Greg notes, having an electrical system capable of running accessories is critical in that regard. So is a traditional look. And in that MG may have an advantage over Triumph in not having to hide a radiator somewhere. (A careful examination of the Thunderbird suggests Triumph spent considerable effort in diverting attention away from that component.)
Personally, I hope MG sells every example they can manufacture. The "halo effect" of a CalVin 1400 is likely to be substantial, I think. And since Aprilia has nothing at all in that market segment, I think it suggests a very smart corporate strategy.
Lets see they only build 7,000 bike a year and only 10% of those come over here. So how do we think that we could convince them to build the GUZZI equvilent of a Wing or something I surely don't want. My EV is a great touring machine why do I need a 1600cc Winnebago? Wait does it come with a Teddy Bear and matching satin jackets.
Dean
Half that. I saw a posting from Piaggio describing how they're going to use a new 12 million dollar grant to develop electric Guzzis and it said Guzzi sold 3,500 bikes last year and they need 4,500 to break even next year. I am amazed that Piaggio hasn't pulled the plug and I'm also amazed people can bitch about new product from a company who probably sold fewer bikes than Bimota did last year. Hell, I bet even those morons at Orange County Choppers sold 500 bikes last year. To say Guzzi isn't a player in the US(or any market) and needs to branch out from what current Guzzi owners want is a massive, massive understatement. It's time for Piaggio to throw a bunch of stuff against teh wall and see what sticks. Past time some would say.
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How big is "too big"?
I was told that Honda was going to discontinue the 1800 VTX and retain the 1300 VTX in the 2010 line-up by our local dealer.* He stated that the 1800 did not sell that well, as compaired to the 1300. Could it be that people are seeing the light when it comes to 800+ pound motorcycles with bigger engines than some small cars?
*I looked on the Honda Powersports web site and still see the 1800 advertised....So I am not really sure what is happening with it.
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How big is "too big"?
I was told that Honda was going to discontinue the 1800 VTX and retain the 1300 VTX in the 2010 line-up by our local dealer.* He stated that the 1800 did not sell that well, as compaired to the 1300. Could it be that people are seeing the light when it comes to 800+ pound motorcycles with bigger engines than some small cars?
*I looked on the Honda Powersports web site and still see the 1800 advertised....So I am not really sure what is happening with it.
The 1300 is anemic...the 1800 is nice.
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Photos showed me leads me to believe that Piaggio is smart enough to know that the new machine must have the larger alternator. That means the new machine cannot be based on the Bellagio, which has a frame that disallows this feature. All of the rest falls out from there.
Loop frame? ;-T ;D
Hopefully with a suitable sized fuel tank.
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When the %&^#@# is someone going to leak a photo!! ???
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When the %&^#@# is someone going to leak a photo!! ???
(http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/25131/2003232980053333251S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2003232980053333251PrzEyb)
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How big is "too big"?
I was told that Honda was going to discontinue the 1800 VTX and retain the 1300 VTX in the 2010 line-up by our local dealer.* He stated that the 1800 did not sell that well, as compaired to the 1300. Could it be that people are seeing the light when it comes to 800+ pound motorcycles with bigger engines than some small cars?
*I looked on the Honda Powersports web site and still see the 1800 advertised....So I am not really sure what is happening with it.
But is it the 09 or an 2010? If it's an 09, then it's still on the site while dealers try to sell through inventory...
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When the %&^#@# is someone going to leak a photo!! ???
(http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/25131/2003232980053333251S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2003232980053333251PrzEyb)
You probably caused a couple of coronaries John!
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/SidecarMike/Odds%20and%20Ends/Jerrybellylaugh.gif)
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When the %&^#@# is someone going to leak a photo!! ???
(http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/25131/2003232980053333251S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2003232980053333251PrzEyb)
You probably caused a couple of coronaries John!
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/SidecarMike/Odds%20and%20Ends/Jerrybellylaugh.gif)
Knowing the folks I know from this board...I was expecing that!
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It'll be shown at EICMA, starting on the 10th.
Edit: OK, there I go making assumptions or at least being guilty of wishful thinking.
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Well, one report said it will be shown.
The stuff I saw of the new Cali didn't seem that ready, nor did they hint that it would be for EICMA. They did hint at some other things that would be, though. We shall see.
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Well, one report said it will be shown.
The stuff I saw of the new Cali didn't seem that ready, nor did they hint that it would be for EICMA. They did hint at some other things that would be, though. We shall see.
You tease like a beoch :-* P:) :BEER:
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The stuff I saw of the new Cali didn't seem that ready,
Heck they showed a Griso with an 8 valve wooden engine not long ago.... ;D
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When I shopped for a new motorbike this past summer, these were my strongest selling points:
1.) Big Engine - 100+ponies is FUN.
2.) Stock suspension and seat had to be awesome = no "sorting out" these issues with aftermarket stuff.
3.) Reputable dealer within reasonable miles that is knowledgeable of the bikes AND can service them promptly (if necessary).
4.) Very low vibration in the handlebars & grips.
5.) Sold warranty longer than 2 years.
Unfortunately, I couldn't match a motorbike in the current Moto Guzzi lineup to the above listed. When Moto Guzzi can produce a cruiser with these features again I will buy a new Moto Guzzi.
Sure had a great ride on the ol' Eldorado tonight! But that motorbike fills a completely different niche. :-)
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Yup, chances are they will exhibit some sort of mu/o/ck up so that nobody buys the current range ::).
I really hope they do SOMETHING for the cruiser crowd and there is plenty of meat in the cylinder spigots of the 8V motor to allow for increase in displacement.
Personally I'm seriously considering a pair of 2009 Stelvio cams for my Griso as these are supposed to add a bit more in the midrange at the expense of a bit of top end. Given the fact that the number of times I need to exceed 200KPH on the road are few and far between but the number of times I want more midrange stonk are considerable it seems like it would be a good idea as long as I can get the PCV and autotune to work with it.
As I've oft stated before if you want outright power go and buy a bloody Dentist bike. There are plenty out there that produce 140-160 RWHP. If you want to ride a chromed whore's purse and dress up like a pox doctor's clerk the market is brimfull of lumps of sh!te that fit that criteria too. want those? go buy one. If you want a Guzzi? Buy a Guzzi. I can tell you that for most normal people who ride on the road there is no want of 'Power' in the 1200 8V engine. But I ride a Mana and a Convert as well as a Griso so I'm obviously totally inadequate in every way imaginable so pay no attention to me! :D
Pete
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As I keep saying I just spent some time on one of those top-dog type bikes that makes literally more than double the HP of my Breva 1100 - I STILL PREFER MY BREVA 1100 - I just don't have the NEED for more than that...
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As I keep saying I just spent some time on one of those top-dog type bikes that makes literally more than double the HP of my Breva 1100 - I STILL PREFER MY BREVA 1100 - I just don't have the NEED for more than that...
My Griso makes *more* than the B11 and in a different way but on paper it is still a three legged donkey with a case of the squits. Do I care? No, because like you it has everything I need power-wise. Once I've got the fuelling sorted an a quieter pipe on it it will be as close to a 'Perfect' bike as I, as a fat bloke in his mid fifties who doesn't want to ride a repli-racer or a whore's purse, could want to get.
Yes, I'd like wire wheels but I've decided I can't justify the expense on the Oz bike and the US bike isn't even getting a look in! I'm tempted to de-tune it with '09 Stelvio cams to give it some more midrange punch but apart from that? I can't see myself ever needing another bike. It's downhill physically from here on in, last thing I need is MORE power or speed! ESpecially as the constabulary already hate me and consider me to be a dangerous scofflaw! ;-T ;D
I'm with you Kev. Let 'em do what they want but I think they are liable to end up 'chasing cars' if they try to compete head on with the 'Big Boys'.
Having said that its interesting the 'Cruiser is based around the Griso platform. It's by far the best frame so it should handle well, even with Merv and Ethel and all their useless touring munt on it!
Pete
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Imagine my plight: I can just barely keep my license with an Eldorado. What would I do with 100 hp?
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Imagine my plight: I can just barely keep my license with an Eldorado. What would I do with 100 hp?
Move to Oz. ;D. Our cops may be bigger bastards and our laws even stupider but population density means you can get away with stuff easier!!! ~;
Pete
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I understand why some on this site want Moto Guzzi to remain as they are and not to compete against better selling brands and models. But, there won't be a Moto Guzzi if they do that. They simply have to appeal to a larger audience or Piaggio will close them down. How many years and how many owners are going to claim they've spent $$$$ on the brand with dismal sales as a result? Sort of like the American education system. We spend the most money per pupil and in general, get some of the worst results in the developed world.
Face it, the Breva 1100 was a parts bin dead model before it ever hit the the US, same with the Breva 1200. Doesn't mean they're bad bikes. Far from it, they are great bikes. They just won't be continued. I agree that the Griso platform is by far their best right now. Keep the 850 Griso, 1200 8V Griso and bring on the new 1400 or 1600. The Griso style for muscle/naked bikes and those same engines in the California series for 'standard' and touring models. Without the Norge getting at least the 1200 8V or a new larger version, it too will be gone within a couple more model years.
For the American market anyway, the 750 models don't seem to sell well enough to justify the import costs. The majority of American buyers seem to like big engines, hp and torque. Guzzi may not be able to compete with Harley, Honda, Yamaha et al but they should be able to expand their current base a bit with some careful model planning. They'll also need a much expanded accessory list, knowledgeable dealers and lower MSRP.
Just a few thoughts,
Mark
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Face it, the Breva 1100 was a parts bin dead model before it ever hit the the US, same with the Breva 1200.
Just a few thoughts,
Mark
What bike did the use parts from to make the Breva? Just curious?
Dean
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The 1100 and especially the 1200 compare favorably to the BMW R1200R. They're down on hp but the OTD price differential is about 5 grand right now. I don't know why the Breva models didn't sell better but I love my Breva Sport.
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Face it, the Breva 1100 was a parts bin dead model before it ever hit the the US, same with the Breva 1200.
Just a few thoughts,
Mark
What bike did the use parts from to make the Breva? Just curious?
Dean
I was wondering the same thing...
When the 1100 Breva came out, it was basically all-new, was it not?
Frame. CARC. Transmission. Engine internals. Bodywork. Etc, etc...
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For the American market anyway, the 750 models don't seem to sell well enough to justify the import costs. The majority of American buyers seem to like big engines, hp and torque.
It would be interesting to see sales figures on the V7 Classic, I had the vague impression that it was doing pretty well relative to other models.
The majority of American buyers are naturally herd followers, and it isn't obvious you can lure them away from the herd to buy a Guzzi. Did Moto Guzzi save the company by making a decent entry in the big rough road touring motorcycle category, or have Stelvio sales been kind of modest while BMW continues to make out big time? I'm not saying no one's buying them, I'm saying it really doesn't matter per se that the category is a giant seller - someone who approaches the subject with the point of view "all my friends have a BMW GS" will buy one of those - not loosely speaking, but specifically. Moto Guzzi can get on board these trains only to a very limited extent, just because of who they are, or rather who they aren't. They're better off, in my opinion, focusing on who they are.
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When the %&^#@# is someone going to leak a photo!! ???
No guarantee but this could be it...
(http://www.moto-station.com/ttesimages/motodivers/nouveautes2010/Moto_Guzzi_California_2010_stpz.jpg)
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Oh!!!
That looks like a big change for the better!
Dean
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Well, I don't think it is. Note the crank mounted alternator and that sure ain't the Griso frame!
Pete
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Oh, the new Cali will use the Griso frame? Wow, that will really change the look.
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Oh, the new Cali will use the Griso frame? Wow, that will really change the look.
Maybe a tank styled like the Eldo one. I would like to see that, not another HD clone.
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That's nothing like what we were shown.
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That's nothing like what we were shown.
Will we still be able to use a trailer hitch with the new 1400 California?
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I want one
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I think Guzzi is on the right path with the V7 classic!! What ever happened to the Triumph 650 being the bike every one wanted. 1400 engine, give it to the Japanese market and stick to you Guns!! The bikes that made you different.
Just MY opinion Geno
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No guarantee but this could be it...
(http://www.moto-station.com/ttesimages/motodivers/nouveautes2010/Moto_Guzzi_California_2010_stpz.jpg)
That's a really old Photoshop from back when the Bellagio was new...
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I understand why some on this site want Moto Guzzi to remain as they are and not to compete against better selling brands and models. But, there won't be a Moto Guzzi if they do that. They simply have to appeal to a larger audience or Piaggio will close them down.
I pretty much disagree with most of your post, but rather than get into a pissing contest over it all, I'll concentrate on this one point.
I don't think ANYONE here is so naive to think (or hope) that Guzzi doesn't change, or grow.
The concern is whether or not in doing so will they stop making products that appeal to us.
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The Breva 1100, Breva 1200 and Norge parts bin. My first thought when the Breva 1100 came out was it may not be around long due to the Norge 1200 engine. Then the Breva 1200 seemed not to have a long life once the 1200 8V engine came out. I really like all three of these bikes but I don't see them lasting as long as something like the California series. Owners of these models seem to really like them a lot though. Great news indeed. Personally, if my income and our economy were in better shape, I'd be all over a Breva 1100, 1200 or 1200 8V with bags and a shield.
Very similar parts bin to the EV/Bassa/Jackal/Special/Aluminum/Vintage. Just because Moto Guzzi announces hundreds of parts changes every few years doesn't mean it's always a good thing. There were some highs and lows in the last 10 years or so. Seems to me like the California series will continue for a while longer, especially if the 1400/1600 rumors pan out. Even if the rumored 1400/1600 cruiser style bike is on the Griso frame, it'll still be in the California lineage. Didn't the California name start with a Loop frame, then onto the Tonti frame and maybe shortly onto the Griso frame. I'm fine with all that. I'm thinking if there's a Moto Guzzi line up in 2019, it will have a California variation. IMHO, The Guzzi California series is already one of Moto Guzzis best selling lines.
Kev M., I sincerely hope Moto Guzzi does continue to make a bike you like enough to purchase and consider a real Guzzi.
Mark
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Personally, I think the "California" name has never been an asset in the US. For most AMericans outside of that state, the connotations aren't what they may be in other countries who only know the US through re-runs of Baywatch and such.
Time to shit-can the name, IMO.
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Greg,
Maybe I'm just biased towards liking the California variations having owned a few over the years. Since I like them and the California name was never an issue for me, I supposed others do as well, But like I said above, I'd be all over the Breva with bags and a windshield if I could. My Bassa would go back to garage candy mode.
Forza Moto Guzzi, California name or not.
Mark
.
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Nothing wrong with a Bassa. It's a do-anything bike.
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Personally, I think the "California" name has never been an asset in the US. For most AMericans outside of that state, the connotations aren't what they may be in other countries who only know the US through re-runs of Baywatch and such.
Time to shit-can the name, IMO.
I think that might be a particular Pacific NW perspective, Greg. ;) Though I have to admit that when Mervyn's changed their name to Mervyn's of California up here, I wondered what the hell they were thinking.
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Personally, I think the "California" name has never been an asset in the US. For most AMericans outside of that state, the connotations aren't what they may be in other countries who only know the US through re-runs of Baywatch and such.
Time to shit-can the name, IMO.
I think that might be a particular Pacific NW perspective, Greg. ;) Though I have to admit that when Mervyn's changed their name to Mervyn's of California up here, I wondered what the hell they were thinking.
I have explained the 'California' model name to several folks out her in LA. As I have many other places.
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Mark,
I never doubted that you would hope Guzzi would continue to appeal to us (even if broadening their scope).
That said, I think Greg has a point on the Cali name.
I think it is easy for those of us who love the Calis and have gotten used to hearing the name to forget how odd it sounded the first time we heard it.
And definitely being a RIGHT coaster, it was off-putting at first to in any way associate the bike with the "People's Republic of Kalifornia"
:BEER:
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Mark,
I never doubted that you would hope Guzzi would continue to appeal to us (even if broadening their scope).
That said, I think Greg has a point on the Cali name.
I think it is easy for those of us who love the Calis and have gotten used to hearing the name to forget how odd it sounded the first time we heard it.
And definitely being a RIGHT coaster, it was off-putting at first to in any way associate the bike with the "People's Republic of Kalifornia"
:BEER:
Very true. Sometimes folks from other countries don't realize how big and diverse the US is. Even within the US that can be a problem.
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never understood the Americanized names of Guzzi - last thing that I would want in an Italian bike - I bought the California because it was the best looking bike somewhat for touring with a reasonable pillion(?) - my wife liked it better than anything that I showed her and I was lucky it was a Guzzi - she like the image too - doesn't ride with me much partly because the only riding I do is commuting
when the Stone came out - remember the comments on that - sounds really fast - ha ha - aluminum that was not - Jackal seemed ok and even a bit international - Nevada?
I guess in the big picture those few years were "few"
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Don't forget the Florida, and the unreleased Utah.
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never understood the Americanized names of Guzzi - last thing that I would want in an Italian bike - I bought the California because it was the best looking bike somewhat for touring with a reasonable pillion(?) - my wife liked it better than anything that I showed her and I was lucky it was a Guzzi - she like the image too - doesn't ride with me much partly because the only riding I do is commuting
when the Stone came out - remember the comments on that - sounds really fast - ha ha - aluminum that was not - Jackal seemed ok and even a bit international - Nevada?
I guess in the big picture those few years were "few"
Because they are considered "cruisers" which, in Italy, are considered "American" style.
What i don't get are all the italian-sounding names on American and Asian cars (Sorento, Sienna, Forenza, Terraza, Venza, etc)
alexM
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Don't forget the Florida, and the unreleased Utah.
That would be the trike and the dual-sidecar (to bring all your wives) models?
PS - got the grips in the mail today GRAZIE!!!!! Damn that's a big instruction manual that comes with em!
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Hi,
My 99 Cal Ev goes faster than I would prefer to ride it....have a Swannee on it which is great.
I would want a Guzzi in the mode of a Honda Valkyrie Interstate where everything matches from front to back...
l400 or l500 cc should be plenty to do 75 or 80 all day and pass everything including the gas stations.
And, six gallon tank, and outside oil filter....radio, maybe...just a complete bike where it all matches and looks right..
Not that all the combinations of Guzzi, Givi/Hepco Becker bags, windscreens, fairiings etc are not attractive in their own right...l
Just a bike that is relatively complete and matches up....In any event, I had a Wing, I had a Valk, I had a Jackal...the only bike
for me is the California....get on it and don't want to get off it....it is the right size, weight, power, torque, horsepower, et al....
Always feels solid, never drifts in wind or passing a tractor trailer...and inspires confidence in every riding situation.
Rich EV
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I guess I don't really see a problem with taking the Cal Vin a few baby steps toward the Road King with the 1400cc engine and a few other upgrades... The Road King, afterall, is a great motorcycle not to mention one of the top sellers in the USA...
Bigger, better bags. Cast wheels. ABS. etc. will be required...
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I guess I don't really see a problem with taking the Cal Vin a few baby steps toward the Road King with the 1400cc engine and a few other upgrades... The Road King, afterall, is a great motorcycle not to mention one of the top sellers in the USA...
Bigger, better bags. Cast wheels. ABS. etc. will be required...
You're probably right for MOST people.
But one of the things that's keeping me from buying another Road King is that the motor is just too damn big.
I should probably just pick up a used 1996-98 1340 with EFI.
Kev
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If Guzzi had one model that appealed to "most people", I'd be happy.
That would mean more money for the oddball models that appeal to me! ;)
I just hope the Cal 14 doesn't come out looking like the new Triumph T-bird. :o
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Ambassador 14 ??
Hmmm...
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I'd guess Evo was a common term used in both languages, probably coincidence. Same as HD started using the "flying eagle" symbol in the 50's, and Guzzi has been using it as an honor to the fallen aviator and co-founder since the 20's
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So Greg - They should call it the Texas? ::)
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I bet those PNW guys are partial to "Cascadia"
;)
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Don't forget the Florida, and the unreleased Utah.
Unreleased Utah ???
Like the unreleased Ippogrifo ???
(http://www.bikez.com/pictures/moto%20guzzi/1997/1052_0_1_2_ippogrifo%20v7_Image%20credits%20-%20Luap%20McKeever.jpg)
...which I think would score big time, if it was ever to be launched. This is one cooool bike, with a much better performing 750 engine. Airo heads....
Never heard about a Utah - please do tell :o
Ciao
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Like the unreleased Ippogrifo ???
(http://www.bikez.com/pictures/moto%20guzzi/1997/1052_0_1_2_ippogrifo%20v7_Image%20credits%20-%20Luap%20McKeever.jpg)
...which I think would score big time, if it was ever to be launched. This is one cooool bike, with a much better performing 750 engine. Airo heads....
Ciao
whoops! forgot the ranting!
That was a real opportunity lost. It came *so* close. A guy I know in Queensland actually has a sales brochure for the Ippogrifo. Then they binned it!
If they were to re-release a similar model, (And I still think it would sell if it could meet emissions regs.) it would probably have to use the CARC and Nuovo six speed rather than the earlier six speed it is shown as having but if they could use the Aero heads I reckon it would be a winner. sh!t! I'd be tempted meself!!!!
Pete
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Somewhere, I've got an Ippogrifo sales brochure, too. Kept it all these years, I liked it so much. Might be able to lay my hands on it - memory's failing me a bit these days.
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For me, one of the really cool things about the Ippogrifo is the rear suspension.
Tack on the CARC and the bike would not be so appealling...
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Like the unreleased Ippogrifo ???
(http://www.bikez.com/pictures/moto%20guzzi/1997/1052_0_1_2_ippogrifo%20v7_Image%20credits%20-%20Luap%20McKeever.jpg)
...which I think would score big time, if it was ever to be launched. This is one cooool bike, with a much better performing 750 engine. Airo heads....
Ciao
whoops! forgot the ranting!
That was a real opportunity lost. It came *so* close. A guy I know in Queensland actually has a sales brochure for the Ippogrifo. Then they binned it!
If they were to re-release a similar model, (And I still think it would sell if it could meet emissions regs.) it would probably have to use the CARC and Nuovo six speed rather than the earlier six speed it is shown as having but if they could use the Aero heads I reckon it would be a winner. sh!t! I'd be tempted meself!!!!
Pete
Daaaang - Pete
That's a small block :o :o :o
Wouldn't be safe in your hands ~; ;D :D ;)
Guzzi would make a smart move to make that the next baby goose launch. That would complete the small block line - that is, if they have no intentions of a small block sporting bike a la Lario.
Ciao
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So Greg - They should call it the Texas? ::)
I was thinking New Jersey.
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Greg
What was the Utah?
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If they were to re-release a similar model, (And I still think it would sell if it could meet emissions regs.) it would probably have to use the CARC and Nuovo six speed rather than the earlier six speed it is shown as having but if they could use the Aero heads I reckon it would be a winner. sh!t! I'd be tempted meself!!!!
Pete
I'm pretty sure the Ipo had the aero heads. Look at the valve covers. You don't need valve covers like those for heron heads.
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Greg
What was the Utah?
I've got to check to make sure it's OK to say. More later today probably.
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Greg
What was the Utah?
I've got to check to make sure it's OK to say. More later today probably.
The suspense is killing us !
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Greg
What was the Utah?
In the late-1980s, Guzzi wanted to get fairly serious about the Paris-Dakar but found that the swingarm pivot on the back of the small-block trans case was not stout enough to take the beating from serious off-road use. As you might imagine, it's fairly dangerous to the rider to have the swingarm pivots break off with the bike at speed.
Guzzi decided the easy way to fix this problem was to design an adapter plate that would allow the big-block 5-speed to be mated to the small-block motor. This was fitted to a new frame that was fairly similar to a big Tonti frame, meaning that the frame carried the swingarm pivots. They used a big-block-type swingarm and rear drive with it. These heavy-duty components worked well enough that Guzzi had producion molds made for the adapter and even cast a big lot of them. Dave R. has one of these plates at home.
The model was going to be brought to production as the Utah but was ultimately canceled. One of the reasons, I think, was because of company turmoil after DeTomasso had a stroke. I'm not too clear on that point, though.
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Thanks for the info - this is really interesting.
How about this baby - did it ever make to the race? Yeah yeah - I know the engine wouldn't make it through the race unmodified :-*
(http://www.xtupload.com/new/image-07C4_4AF3D939.jpg) (http://www.xtupload.com/new/share-07C4_4AF3D939.html)
Ciao
Brian
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Greg
What was the Utah?
Guzzi decided the easy way to fix this problem was to design an adapter plate that would allow the big-block 5-speed to be mated to the small-block motor. This was fitted to a new frame that was fairly similar to a big Tonti frame, meaning that the frame carried the swingarm pivots. They used a big-block-type swingarm and rear drive with it. These heavy-duty components worked well enough that Guzzi had producion molds made for the adapter and even cast a big lot of them. Dave R. has one of these plates at home.
Phil D. Has the whole bike ;D Really. I'll get photo's next time I'm in Smellyburn.
Pete
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That would be real cool Pete!
Thanks! ;-T
Ciao
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Did Phil make it himself, or is it ex-factory?
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Ex factory Greg, although further consideration overnight makes me think I may of been mis-remembering. I think it uses the smallblock five-speed with a big-block bevel box. It was one of the Dakar bikes, the other one is in the Museum in Mandello. I can't remember how Phil got his grubby little paws on it. I'll pick his brain next time I see him, he has a huge garage full of weirdness and exotica, a lot of it dirt orientated AND he's a smallblock nutter!
Pete
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Then he is real good company ;D :D ;)
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So Greg - They should call it the Texas? ::)
I was thinking New Jersey.
Cool, what exit? ;D Land area aside, California is very much like New Jersey, but with nicer weather...
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Hi iv just read roomers about the new California 1400cc/1600cc that MotoGuzzi may be sending a prototype to the Milan motorcycle show I think in november or December, as I'm in the market for a new Cali for Xmas any suggestions as to when it may be released if ever Mind you I still fancy the current model cali classic, any suggestions Buy the current Cali or what for the new Cali this is the BIG problem I face :Currently very happy owner of a Nevada <divclass="msgbox">Nofilesuploaded!</div>
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Hi iv just read roomers about the new California 1400cc/1600cc that MotoGuzzi may be sending a prototype to the Milan motorcycle show I think in november or December, as I'm in the market for a new Cali for Xmas any suggestions as to when it may be released if ever Mind you I still fancy the current model cali classic, any suggestions Buy the current Cali or what for the new Cali this is the BIG problem I face :Currently very happy owner of a Nevada <divclass="msgbox">Nofilesuploaded!</div>
Coming up this week. EICMA - Milan. We should be getting pics by the 11th, I'd imagine.
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I searched the web off and on today for photos of the new 1400 California which was rumored to be at EICMA. Unfortunately...no luck. :(
To be honest, if I was running the marketing plan for the EICMA show for Moto Guzzi I wouldn't display the new California on the first day if I had the prototype for the new V12 to unveil. Let the V12 get all the buzz for a day or two, then show the 1400 California later in the week.
Hopefully that's what Moto Guzzi is thinking, and we'll see the new Cali soon.
If someone finds a photo please post it!
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That's exactly what I was thinking, make the fun last!
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Yeah, make all of us old-fashioned, living-in-the-past folks wait! ;)
The new white bike is growing on me but I'm really more interested in a "modern" traditional looking bike from Guzzi.
Surely there's a market for one, isn't there? Is piag paying attention to the marketing and support side, too?
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I searched the web off and on today for photos of the new 1400 California which was rumored to be at EICMA. Unfortunately...no luck. :(
To be honest, if I was running the marketing plan for the EICMA show for Moto Guzzi I wouldn't display the new California on the first day if I had the prototype for the new V12 to unveil. Let the V12 get all the buzz for a day or two, then show the 1400 California later in the week.
Hopefully that's what Moto Guzzi is thinking, and we'll see the new Cali soon.
If someone finds a photo please post it!
If I read this correctly they will show it on Thursday......
These teaser images of design sketches of the machine have just been posted on the Moto Guzzi website (www.motoguzzi.it) and announce that “A revolutionary new machine designed by ex-Ducati designer Pierre Terrblanche will be unveiled at the Milan Show this Thursday”. The images clearly show an aggressive, sports orientated machine in traditional Moto Guzzi livery and using the Mandello marque’s trademark, across-the-frame V-twin.
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I searched the web off and on today for photos of the new 1400 California which was rumored to be at EICMA. Unfortunately...no luck. :(
To be honest, if I was running the marketing plan for the EICMA show for Moto Guzzi I wouldn't display the new California on the first day if I had the prototype for the new V12 to unveil. Let the V12 get all the buzz for a day or two, then show the 1400 California later in the week.
Hopefully that's what Moto Guzzi is thinking, and we'll see the new Cali soon.
If someone finds a photo please post it!
If I read this correctly they will show it on Thursday......
These teaser images of design sketches of the machine have just been posted on the Moto Guzzi website (www.motoguzzi.it) and announce that “A revolutionary new machine designed by ex-Ducati designer Pierre Terrblanche will be unveiled at the Milan Show this Thursday”. The images clearly show an aggressive, sports orientated machine in traditional Moto Guzzi livery and using the Mandello marque’s trademark, across-the-frame V-twin.
I'm skeptical, but remain hopeful. I think we've seen Terrblanche's contributions already. And frankly, I'm somewhat terrified at the prospect of what he would consider to be a good cruiser design. (I actually like the guy's designs, but turning him loose on a redesign of the California line strikes me as heresy.)
I do think that given the pre-show speculation about a 1400cc MG, unless it's either introduced or a firm date for its introduction is announced, MG risks some very bad press.
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I would buy Guzzi cruiser with tubeless wheels (must have), outside oil filter and 200+ miles tank. If not I’ll keep riding my EV.
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I'm skeptical, but remain hopeful. I think we've seen Terrblanche's contributions already. And frankly, I'm somewhat terrified at the prospect of what he would consider to be a good cruiser design. (I actually like the guy's designs, but turning him loose on a redesign of the California line strikes me as heresy.)
I do think that given the pre-show speculation about a 1400cc MG, unless it's either introduced or a firm date for its introduction is announced, MG risks some very bad press.
There's no need for terror. From what I saw, anyway.
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I'm skeptical, but remain hopeful. I think we've seen Terrblanche's contributions already. And frankly, I'm somewhat terrified at the prospect of what he would consider to be a good cruiser design. (I actually like the guy's designs, but turning him loose on a redesign of the California line strikes me as heresy.)
I do think that given the pre-show speculation about a 1400cc MG, unless it's either introduced or a firm date for its introduction is announced, MG risks some very bad press.
There's no need for terror. From what I saw, anyway.
Best news I've heard today, Greg. ;D Despite my comment above, I have to say that Terreblanche bashing (which is apparently endemic among some Ducatistas as well as others) ignores the fact that a good designer (and he certainly is one) takes a fresh eye to each new project. Assuming that a designer imposes a personal viewpoint on a design regardless of the objective of that design is simply silly. I wasn't a fan of the Ducati 999 but I found the ST4 to be a beautiful bike.
So if Terreblanche comes up with (or contributes to) the design for the (still rumored) 1400 cc cruiser, I'll approach it without preconceptions.
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Prior to the show in Milan several folks on this board were hoping to see the rumored 1400 California, which may also include an upgraded charging system, better gearbox, and various other goodies strapped onto a new frame (some thought MG might might use the Griso frame but only time will tell).
I did a quick search of recent threads and couldn't find any new info, but you just never know. Thread drift is practically an art form on this board! :D
So, does anyone have something new to share? Greg? Dealers? Industry Spies? ;)
Thanks!
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Nothing new for me to report. I only got to see drawings, last fall.
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Don't worry. The USA will get it about 2 years after Europe does.
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Found it on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNgM_uzzj74
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Just got my March Motorcyclist magazine. And on page 20 is an article by Alan Cathcart about a new liquid cooled Guzzi engine expected to debut in 2013. Key elements? LC, the longitudinal V twin we expect, but DOHC, Euro 4 compliant, 3 valve per cylinder (2 in, 1 out) cylinders canted forward 20 degrees for weight bias and leg room. To be in a new Le Mans, a streetfighter, and an adventure tourer.
Hell of a time to be forced to stop riding bikes!
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So the characteristic longitudinal crank / transvese cylinders, but the cylinders are canted FORWARD ???
Wouldn't that point the crankshaft upward putting an awkward bend in the driveline?
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Rumor morphing into reality?
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Why not put the intakes in the V and the exhaust outside?
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Exactly. ???
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Translated from a Greek site, cross posted from GT..
- V2 90 degrees, 1200cc, shaftie
- Designed from scratch
- Euro 4 compliant (implemented in 2014, difficult for air cooled engines to conform)
- DOHC,4 valves, cams driven by mixed chain-gear system
- Tilted 8 degrees towards front end to provide legroom and more weight to the front wheel (were hopping for 15 degrees but the shaft drive had problems)
- To be presented at EICMA in November 2012
- Chief engineer Federico Martini
- To be manufactured at Pontedera and freighted to Mandello del Lario assembly line
- Originally conceived as a 3 valve but performance not good enough
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Still makes no sense whatsoever to build a LC V-twin & mount it transversely so the cylinders are out in the wind... ::)
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Still makes no sense whatsoever to build a LC V-twin & mount it transversely so the cylinders are out in the wind... ::)
The whole thing sounds stupid to me. Top heavy, complicated, and built by the scooter guys.
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makes no sense whatsoever to build a LC V-twin & mount it transversely
(a) it doesn't hurt anything.
(b) assuming shaft-drive, it avoids the necessity for a right-angle gear transfer from the crank-shaft.
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Cool, I at last have a reason to put a trailer hitch on my bubble car! ;-T Wait, scratch that as my future car hasn't been built yet either.
(http://s1.postimage.org/1pruqs490/flyingcar11.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1pruqs490/)
I'll just be happy that Guzzi's still selling bikes in 2013.
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Sounds good to me, building for the future. It illustrates that Guzzi will go on and the mark needs a bit of freshening. Liquid cooling is inevitable for noise and emission compliance. I love old bikes and new cars, but Guzzi can't servive on supporting the used bike market. Now just get us a dealer network.
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So the characteristic longitudinal crank / transvese cylinders, but the cylinders are canted FORWARD ???
Wouldn't that point the crankshaft upward putting an awkward bend in the driveline?
I caught that too, sounds like BS / maybe both rod ends will have CV joints ~; ~; ~;
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As Chuck in Indiania reported: "Tilted 8 degrees towards front end to provide legroom and more weight to the front wheel (were hoping for 15 degrees but the shaft drive had problems)"
CV joints would be a great idea, but how many degrees does a swing arm rotate through with out problems to "U" joints? So I doubt the tilted engine is an issue.
Let's not take pop shots and re-engineer what the boys at Guzzi are attemping to do make this bike more marketable and competitive.
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No pot shots here, just trying to understand, not that it matters since I won't buy a watercooled bike as long as there is an air cooled alternative...
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Yeah, I read that magazine tidbit. Who knows what they're gonna do. I don't wanna see water cooling either. Big ugly radiator, plumbing, all that.
Apparently, BMW isn't yet drinking from that cup. The little info we get out of the germans is that they plan to continue development of the air/oil-cooled boxer for several years. Yes, there has been talk about BMW going wet but nothing official.
I don't buy the "air-cooling can't meet specs" argument. I can remember hearing that about Harleys for 25 years.
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And we all thought we could breath easier when we heard they had gotten rid of poor ole Pierre Terblanche who went to Norton (god be with them).
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I would be happy if they engineered it from a techs point of view. Tilt motor forward, put the nose of the trans under the flywheel, then have it able to drop out of frame from the bottom. You can't crab the CARC frames to shorten the time.
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Quote from Leafman60:
Big ugly radiator, plumbing, all that.
If you have noticed some of the water cooled bikes out now the radiator and plumbing are blended in to where you almost have to look for it.
GliderJohn
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For example ... ?
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Quote from Leafman60:
Big ugly radiator, plumbing, all that.
If you have noticed some of the water cooled bikes out now the radiator and plumbing are blended in to where you almost have to look for it.
GliderJohn
Actually no, I don't think that's true, especially for anything with classic lines similar to a V7, Bonnie, Cal-Vin, Harley etc...I don't think I've seen a water-cooled version of a bike like that where the radiator wasn't still quite visible and ugly...
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Quote from Kevin M:
Actually no, I don't think that's true, especially for anything with classic lines similar to a V7, Bonnie, Cal-Vin, Harley etc...I don't think I've seen a water-cooled version of a bike like that where the radiator wasn't still quite visible and ugly...
You have a point. What i am thinking of is bikes that are pretty heavy on body work unlike your examples above. The problem is I really do not think there will be a choice in a few years. On the possible positive side those that want more power out of small blocks may get it with water cooling.
GliderJohn
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Would love for Guzzi to diversify it's lineup and not remain totally archaic forever.
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Quote from Kevin M:
Actually no, I don't think that's true, especially for anything with classic lines similar to a V7, Bonnie, Cal-Vin, Harley etc...I don't think I've seen a water-cooled version of a bike like that where the radiator wasn't still quite visible and ugly...
You have a point. What i am thinking of is bikes that are pretty heavy on body work unlike your examples above. The problem is I really do not think there will be a choice in a few years. On the possible positive side those that want more power out of small blocks may get it with water cooling.
GliderJohn
Yeah, it's much easier to hide it when you have a lot of bodywork - something like the Norge would hide it better than a Breva, but a Breva would hide it better than say a Bellagio or V7.
Unfortunately, I don't like bikes with much bodywork.
Honestly the essence of a bike is the motor and I want that to be clear, clean, exposed, visible etc, both from an aesthetic point of view and from an ease-of-service point of view.
And, yeah, I've heard for more than a decade the "it's gonna end soon" thing on air-cooled motors. But honestly, there is no reason it ever HAS TO, it's all in the hands of politicians and regulating bodies like the EPA.
That said, Harley is STILL not using Cat-Cons in 49 states and making current EPA standards, so they still have some breathing room.
I'll say this, if Guzzi goes all water while Harley and BMW make air/oil cooled models, I'll likely not buy another new Guzzi. And I prefer new bikes, so Guzzi's loss...
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Would love for Guzzi to diversify it's lineup and not remain totally archaic forever.
This, to be honest I don't think staying aircooled is a option noise and pollution laws have caught up. BMW is doing the same to the boxer HD has enough clout to stand over US govt and ensure the aircooled motor will continue and that will work for them as the US is still by far their biggest market. Guzzi is just a bit of plankton in the ocean of europe. On the flip side a road going MGS-02 with serious bite I'd be up for that.
At least Piaggio is actually putting money into the brand and not simply winding it up.
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But it's not JUST Guzzi...
BMW, Triumph, Ducati, Royal Einfield, Ural all still sell air-cooled bikes (along with a handful of the Japanese models), they must have SOME collective lobbying presence in Europe no?
Look, I'm a bit of hippie from an environmental standpoint.
I bought an EFI bike as soon as I could for that reason.
I've kept the cat-cons on my bikes that have come with them.
I don't tune for max power at the cost of pollutants.
But for gawd's sake, would someone wake up and see how small an amount of pollution motorcycles are contributing to the overall picture.
We've cleaned up 2-strokes, with EFI we've seriously cleaned up motorcycles in general.
And just look at the overall fuel efficiency of smaller air-cooled models like the V7 or Bonnie... leave em alone...
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I agree with Kev.
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For me this just solidifies my future Griso 8v purchase. Not sure if we will see any of those previously reported concept bikes over here between now and this 2013 water-cooled model. The current models could be the last of the breed.
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Behold, a fine example of a water-cooled bike where you have to look hard to find the radiator. In fact, you have to look hard to find anything mechanical on this new Honda "adventure bike." Lets ride the dirt roads on it !
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide/Honda.jpg)
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Totalitarianism knows no bounds.
My first street bike, in 1984, was a water-cooked dohc V4. I rode it 50,000 miles, overhauled the engine and learned that there's a better, more traditional way to build a motorcycle. At that point they'd been been building them that way in Mandello for 65 years (90 years today)
Now, the plan is to stop making the motorcycles experience taught me were best and replace them with a liquid cooled dohc engine built by a scooter manufcturer. And the EU regulators will be happy.
No f'ing way I'll be buying into that world view, on any level.
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I care about how my motorcycle goes more than how it looks. The air-cooled Guzzi V twin is a very handsome powerplant but if I can get better economy, more power, less emissions, longer maintenance intervals and retain the quality of power delivery....I am all for a radiator.
Adding a radiator does not mean the essential character of the bike would change. For me. YMMV and all the rest. The "Guzzi experience" for me is all about how the bike goes. It's not about working on it or looking at it.
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I care about how my motorcycle goes more than how it looks. The air-cooled Guzzi V twin is a very handsome powerplant but if I can get better economy, more power, less emissions, longer maintenance intervals and retain the quality of power delivery....I am all for a radiator.
Adding a radiator does not mean the essential character of the bike would change. For me. YMMV and all the rest. The "Guzzi experience" for me is all about how the bike goes. It's not about working on it or looking at it.
I totally get that.
And I agree that FIRST and FOREMOST I want the bike to function the way I want.
But since the air-cooled models do everything I want from a functional standpoint, then my secondary requirements include aesthetics and maintenance.
And I don't like having to deal with coolant since it's not offering me any tangible benefit over my air-cooled motors.
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"Skin Mechanic"
I worked 27 years as a Senior Technician in Advanced Materials R&D. My main projects the last decade were developing ceramic composites, but I also worked on a ceramic fuel cel project. The lab closed in 2003, ( I was laid off & took early retirement) the fuel cel work was bought by Rolls Royce. I meet a couple times a year with former coworkers now working for RR in Ohio. Latest word is a "go-nogo" production decision point at the end of 2011. I've lost count of how many "milestones" have been missed/delayed over the years. Of course, the whole project has morphed into a small power plant sized unit from a design that could have been used for smaller applications.
The reality is that they are still struggling with basic technical problems that I worked on in 2002. I'm not counting on driving a fuel cel powered vehicle in my lifetime.
Ron Komoroski
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Would love for Guzzi to diversify it's lineup and not remain totally archaic forever.
+1
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Behold, a fine example of a water-cooled bike where you have to look hard to find the radiator. In fact, you have to look hard to find anything mechanical on this new Honda "adventure bike." Lets ride the dirt roads on it !
Not a great example. You have to look to see the motor, too.
What is Guzzi known for? The chassis, and the motor (well shown)
And as for a bike that the radiator is well hidden? Britten V1000
(http://www.motosolvang.com/images_new/large/1995_Britten_V1000_02.jpg)
Considering how much flak they got for Terblanche's last efforts in Milan last year (and he's now with Norton), maybe they are very concerned about how well the next Le Mans, etc. go over
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Considering how much flak they got for Terblanche's last efforts
I perceived this differently. In fact, Terblanche's designs won the major motorcycling design award and generated huge press and a wildly enthusiastic reception from most of the motorcycle buying world. It was on this board that there was a certain amount of grousing (although even on Wildguzzi, response was about thirty percent positive, If I recall).
If I were the company I would have to perceive the majority of folks on this board as "the past" in marketing terms. When you look at the ages, most of us have maybe one more new bike purchase in us, and truth be told, there aren't very many of us to start with.
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That being said, I don't personally care for Terblanche's style much. Instead of form-follows-function he always seems to be in the stick-a-bunch-of-futuristic-crap-on-it-and-call-it-design camp.
But the one thing I drooled over with his designs was the idea of solid-state heat-sinks in place of water-cooling. That would be freaking revolutionary, and would vault Guzzi into the position of technology leader, while at the same time creating a legitimate excuse to retain the existing engine architecture (more or less).
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I care about how my motorcycle goes more than how it looks. The air-cooled Guzzi V twin is a very handsome powerplant but if I can get better economy, more power, less emissions, longer maintenance intervals and retain the quality of power delivery....I am all for a radiator.
Adding a radiator does not mean the essential character of the bike would change. For me. YMMV and all the rest. The "Guzzi experience" for me is all about how the bike goes. It's not about working on it or looking at it.
I totally get that.
And I agree that FIRST and FOREMOST I want the bike to function the way I want.
But since the air-cooled models do everything I want from a functional standpoint, then my secondary requirements include aesthetics and maintenance.
And I don't like having to deal with coolant since it's not offering me any tangible benefit over my air-cooled motors.
...And there will always be a market for folks that love Sportsters. There is nothing wrong with being satisfied with what a bike is rather than wishing it was more. Where I think Guzzi is headed down the wrong path is liquid cooling the Cali series. It should remain air-cooled in my opinion because it's sort of like mounting a radiator on a Sporty.
The LC engine is an opportunity for Guzzi to branch out and obtain some buyers who wouldn't otherwise consider the brand. For instance, a new Lemans is a good place for it. The current engine in my 1200 Sport is good for maybe 80-85hp and 75-80-ft/lbs with minor mods. Anything beyond that requires tearing into the engine. It's already in a fairly high state of tune. LC would change that. If they came out with a LC Lemans that looked like the last generation(or an MGS-01) and had 90hp at the rear wheel along with 90+ft/lbs....I would trade my bike in on one immediately.
Right now Guzzi is using aspirational marketing to try and sell bikes that don't meet the requirements. A truly sporting model with tire wrinkling torque and superb fit and finish might change that.
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;-T I absolutely agree John.
As such expanding into some models that are LC would be a smart move (almost a no brainer I would think).
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Advanced and effective aren't the same thing. I'm all in favor of buying into any technology that makes a better performing, more effective sporting motorcycle... by my definition, because its my money. That would mean it has to be lightweight, home maintainable, and good for infinite life.
If you look at the total marketplace failure of companies like Porsche trying to compete with aircraft engine designs that have a lot in common with Moto Guzzi, you'll understand that not every market has the childish consumer mentality that characterizes the customer base for most motorcycle manufacturers. The beauty of Guzzi was that they catered to a smarter market than the zillions of yo-yos who buy a motorcycle, kill it or crash it before it wears out then buy another, remaining forever broke.
I have one complex, liquid cooled motorcycle (my ST2). The reason it is practical is that it was very cheap to buy, and because I only put 2000 miles/year on it. The heavy lifting gets done by other stuff like my R100GS.
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Behold, a fine example of a water-cooled bike where you have to look hard to find the radiator. In fact, you have to look hard to find anything mechanical on this new Honda "adventure bike." Lets ride the dirt roads on it !
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide/Honda.jpg)
"adventure-styled" streetbike, maybe. "adventure bike", no...
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Totalitarianism knows no bounds.
My first street bike, in 1984, was a water-cooked dohc V4. I rode it 50,000 miles, overhauled the engine and learned that there's a better, more traditional way to build a motorcycle. At that point they'd been been building them that way in Mandello for 65 years (90 years today)
Now, the plan is to stop making the motorcycles experience taught me were best and replace them with a liquid cooled dohc engine built by a scooter manufcturer. And the EU regulators will be happy.
No f'ing way I'll be buying into that world view, on any level.
Did either of these two sources say that Guzzi planned to kill the air cooled motor???
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Cool, I at last have a reason to put a trailer hitch on my bubble car! ;-T Wait, scratch that as my future car hasn't been built yet either.
(http://s1.postimage.org/1pruqs490/flyingcar11.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1pruqs490/)
I'll just be happy that Guzzi's still selling bikes in 2013.
I'm still waiting on hydrogen fuel cell cars to go into production. The engineers always claim, "in 5-7 years fuel cell cars will be ready for consumers"... Yeah right, researchers have been sayin' that crap for 30 years. It won't happen, cause the big oil companies have everybody by the nads. As for MG selling bike in 2013, don't forget that the world ends on 12/21/2012 ;D ::)
If you live in So Cal you can lease one, $600 a month!
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/
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Did either of these two sources say that Guzzi planned to kill the air cooled motor???
I guarantee you 100% that every new "Moto Guzzi" engine from now forward will be designed and built at Piaggio, just like this one.
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Did either of these two sources say that Guzzi planned to kill the air cooled motor???
I guarantee you 100% that every new "Moto Guzzi" engine from now forward will be designed and built at Piaggio, just like this one.
...And your point is?
Lots of folks here scoff at anything that isn't in a Tonti frame. Others claim Loops are the only Guzzi they'd ride. I happen to think it's wonderfully nice of Piaggio not to can every single person in Mandello and kill Guzzi completely. The company hemorrages money. I'm just happy I can get spares.
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Did either of these two sources say that Guzzi planned to kill the air cooled motor???
I guarantee you 100% that every new "Moto Guzzi" engine from now forward will be designed and built at Piaggio, just like this one.
...And your point is?
Lots of folks here scoff at anything that isn't in a Tonti frame. Others claim Loops are the only Guzzi they'd ride. I happen to think it's wonderfully nice of Piaggio not to can every single person in Mandello and kill Guzzi completely. The company hemorrages money. I'm just happy I can get spares.
Go to Mandello and learn about Moto Guzzi, the company and people. I can't teach you.
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Did either of these two sources say that Guzzi planned to kill the air cooled motor???
I guarantee you 100% that every new "Moto Guzzi" engine from now forward will be designed and built at Piaggio, just like this one.
...And your point is?
Lots of folks here scoff at anything that isn't in a Tonti frame. Others claim Loops are the only Guzzi they'd ride. I happen to think it's wonderfully nice of Piaggio not to can every single person in Mandello and kill Guzzi completely. The company hemorrages money. I'm just happy I can get spares.
Go to Mandello and learn about Moto Guzzi, the company and people. I can't teach you.
It's a motorcycle. I do not have an emotional attachment to it outside the memories I have accrued while riding it with people I care about. Triumphs are made in Thailand. BMW's are made in China. BFD.
There is no Moto Guzzi. There is a brand wholly owned by a conglomerate which through its' benificence, continues to put out motorcycles in a recognizably Guzzi design. Moto Guzzi is someone's project at Piaggio that is being continued when every reasonable person would have thrown in the towel.
I am sorry that I was condescending in my previous post. I am well aware of the history of MG. Have a good evening.
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Did either of these two sources say that Guzzi planned to kill the air cooled motor???
I guarantee you 100% that every new "Moto Guzzi" engine from now forward will be designed and built at Piaggio, just like this one.
...And your point is?
Lots of folks here scoff at anything that isn't in a Tonti frame. Others claim Loops are the only Guzzi they'd ride. I happen to think it's wonderfully nice of Piaggio not to can every single person in Mandello and kill Guzzi completely. The company hemorrages money. I'm just happy I can get spares.
Go to Mandello and learn about Moto Guzzi, the company and people. I can't teach you.
It's a motorcycle. I do not have an emotional attachment to it outside the memories I have accrued while riding it with people I care about. Triumphs are made in Thailand. BMW's are made in China. BFD.
There is no Moto Guzzi. There is a brand wholly owned by a conglomerate which through its' benificence, continues to put out motorcycles in a recognizably Guzzi design. Moto Guzzi is someone's project at Piaggio that is being continued when every reasonable person would have thrown in the towel.
I am sorry that I was condescending in my previous post. I am well aware of the history of MG. Have a good evening.
Your ideas are in my opinion puerile.
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Peurile is better than effete. It's just a motorcycle and it's Friday night on the internet.
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Peurile is better than effete. It's just a motorcycle and it's Friday night on the internet.
Like I said, I clearly can't teach you much.
I've been to Mandello more times than I can count, I do get it, but Moto Guzzi is not something you're not going to understand. And there are a lot more like you.
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Peurile is better than effete. It's just a motorcycle and it's Friday night on the internet.
Like I said, I clearly can't teach you much.
I've been to Mandello more times than I can count, I do get it, but Moto Guzzi is not something you're not going to understand. And there are a lot more like you.
"If I have to explain, you would not understand" ;)
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Peurile is better than effete. It's just a motorcycle and it's Friday night on the internet.
Like I said, I clearly can't teach you much.
I've been to Mandello more times than I can count, I do get it, but Moto Guzzi is not something you're not going to understand. And there are a lot more like you.
"If I have to explain, you would not understand" ;)
;D ;D
I think you can explain what Guzzi is all about, how unique they are, and some people get it. Others aren't capable of it even if they've been there and seen it. That's life.
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Peurile is better than effete. It's just a motorcycle and it's Friday night on the internet.
Like I said, I clearly can't teach you much.
I've been to Mandello more times than I can count, I do get it, but Moto Guzzi is not something you're not going to understand.
You're right. Guzzi should continue making bikes that 3,000 people a year buy when they need to make 10,000 just to break even. They should continue with a failed business model. They should thumb their noses at more stringent emissions requirements or any future regulations that effect their product. They should continue flailing away in Mandello when they could make better, less expensive bikes elsewhere.
I'm happy for you. I really am. While you're patting yourself on the back for "getting it" and visiting a town in Italy there are brand new, unsold 2008 Norges and 1200 Sports sitting in the US warehouse.
The thread is about liquid cooling select future models. If you want to continue claiming that I'm being childish, send me a PM. Otherwise let's talk liquid cooling.
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Yes, Piaggio has failed. They introduced bikes that cost a great deal to develop and which have failed to sell, because they fail to capitalize on what Guzzi is all about. The answer is not more of the same.
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What has Piaggio introduced, that Aprillia did not have on the drawing board already? I'm serious, I don't know the answer.
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Behold, a fine example of a water-cooled bike where you have to look hard to find the radiator. In fact, you have to look hard to find anything mechanical on this new Honda "adventure bike." Lets ride the dirt roads on it !
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Super%20Glide/Honda.jpg)
"adventure-styled" streetbike, maybe. "adventure bike", no...
by the way, this Honda looks as though someone should do it a favor, and "put it down" American colloquialism meaning to kill it, as it put is out of it's misery.
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Still makes no sense whatsoever to build a LC V-twin & mount it transversely so the cylinders are out in the wind... ::)
Exactly. It's Piaggio, though, so it probably makes perfect sense to them.
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What has Piaggio introduced, that Aprillia did not have on the drawing board already? I'm serious, I don't know the answer.
Piaggio has concentrated on deconstructing Guzzi's engine capabilities, letting Aprilia maintain their leadership in screwing up Guzzi's overall product range. ::)
The change when Piaggio bought Aprilia was in who develops the engines: Piaggio now designs the engines instead of Rotax, Suzuki, or Guzzi. The late model 8V Guzzi engine was designed by Piaggio, based on the pre-existing Guzzi designs. There was no change in chassis design and styling when Piaggio bought Aprilia, because Aprilia still does that work now. The Breva, Norge and Griso were all conceived of pre-Piaggio. I suspect the Stelvio was conceived of by Aprilia after Piaggio took over.
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I've always wondered why they can't broad finn the frame and make it the radiator. Narrow finn would be more efficient for heat transfer but who likes sliced leggs. ;D
As for Mandello and the Marque's mystique...I loved MG's (Morris Garage) in the past, simle machines that were fun; new ones would probably be designed and built in Malaysia. The sad truth is either reasonably modern and living, olde but goodie and gone....
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As for Mandello and the Marque's mystique...I loved MG's (Morris Garage) in the past, simple machines that were fun; new ones would probably be designed and built in Malaysia. The sad truth its either reasonably modern and living, olde but goodie and gone....
The last gasp of MG was under far-eastern ownership. MG went the same route as Moto Guzzi is going: shutting down production at the historic MG factory in Abingdon in 1980, then losing their base and 'modernizing' under Rover, then dying with Rover with 2005. The Chinese then took over and also failed in 2010.
Here's the "reasonably modern" car that didn't do nearly as well as the Abingdon-built ones you liked...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/MG_TF_2002.jpg/250px-MG_TF_2002.jpg)
Here's the web site of the old fashioned MG competitor with the 2011 waiting list:
http://www.morgan-motor.co.uk/
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I sincerely hope not,if emission issues do it necessary, what about an anti plastic BRASS framed old fashioned radiator?
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So the answer is nothing. Piaggio has yet to bring an entirely new Moto Guzzi to market.
If Piaggio does bring out an motor that is not a transverse Vtwin for Moto Guzzi, it had better be revolutionary.
Greg Field has said that MG has been is a state at or near bankruptcy since the original v700. I tend to agree with him on that, at least until Piaggio absorbed the brand. Now for better or worse, the 90 deg L twin is what Guzzi is know for, really little else. So if Guzzi were to produce anything that's been done before, and was not markedly better in some way, their identity would fade into the wind. How hard would that be to do? My guess, pretty hard. Thus as I see it, they have two choices. One come out with something revolutionary. Two evolve the 90 L transverse. Really, I would like to see them do both. However, if you were running Piaggio, what would you do given where we are in 2011?
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However, if you were running Piaggio, what would you do given where we are in 2011?
Sell the company to those who could run it. See Morgan link above as an example of what might follow. Build customer base out of the mainstream market.
In 1971, Moto Guzzi built 46,487 motorcycles at Mandello.
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Enough about politics and business.
As much as I love the old V twin, I'm hoping this new one has improved casting techniques with the cases that result in the same strength and lighter weight.
As for liquid cooling, it is an inevitability. It allows closer piston to bore tolerances and lower emissions. All that with increased performance from the gas used. I say bring it on. I also frequent the Allpar forum and it is disappointing to hear folks over there talking about how Chrysler and Dodge need to survive in the coming market (spelled gas prices) and still believe the 318 is the way to go. (Sorry GuzziMike, as much as I love the 318, the new Pentastar V6 & the 2.4 are the future)
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Nobody loves the Guzzi twin more than I do, but it has not been a success for the company. If they keep the across-the-frame twin and just water-cool it, they'll still have a 3,000-units-a-year seller.
Why bother?
Start afresh. It's long past time.
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However, if you were running Piaggio, what would you do given where we are in 2011?
Sell the company to those who could run it. See Morgan link above as an example of what might follow. Build customer base out of the mainstream market.
In 1971, Moto Guzzi built 46,487 motorcycles at Mandello.
My own puerile opinion is that the answer is NOT for Guzzi to handbuild obscenely expensive bikes for rich people who can barely ride and only buy them as status symbols. That's the Morgan business model. Morgan's are beautiful but how many people can enjoy them at 100 thousand dollars?
Selling 46,487 motorcycles in 1971 is meaningless in this discussion. That was 40 years ago. As recently as 5 years ago, Triumph only sold 37,000 motorcycles a year. The market is completely different than it was 40 years ago. So are motorcycles, whether we all like it or not.
The only way MG has survived has been by sucking the corporate teat of bigger companies who were large enough to basically ignore MG. MG has been like a remora living off the scraps of its' parent company for decades. The best thing that could happen to Guzzi is if one or two really talented and dedicated folks from Piaggio take interest and meddle just enough to keep the money flowing for a few new products.
Therre is nothing about Guzzi from the last two decades to suggest that it is a viable independant concern. Anyone with enough money to buy it would also be smart enough not to.
It would be great if they could introduce a new, liquid cooled Lemans but not apply LC across the board. They'd be able to maintain their air-cooled Cali line while bringing new buyers on board.
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Why not put the New 'Aprilia Dorsoduro 1200' motor in a Guzzi? All the engineering is done. With a new crank and crankcase it should fit fine in the existing drive train. :BEER: "The Right Way"
It would be a 130 hp parts bin Guzzi monster. ;D
(http://s1.postimage.org/1ztkwesn8/122_1102_008_o_aprilia_dorsoduro_1200.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1ztkwesn8/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/1ztpv0u4k/122_1102_009_o_aprilia_dorsoduro_1200.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1ztpv0u4k/)
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1011_aprilia_dorsoduro_1200_first_ride/index.html (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1011_aprilia_dorsoduro_1200_first_ride/index.html)
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In 1971, Moto Guzzi built 46,487 motorcycles at Mandello.
In 1971 Guzzi produced what could be easily recognised as a up date modern motorcycle, in the same year they produced the worlds fastest production motorcycle. If you look back to the era's Guzzi did well it was when it was able to move with the times and produce what the market wanted. To be locked into a engine configuration and a cooling technique has got them where they are today.
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Yes, times change and Guzzi must change to remain a viable business. In the here and now, it has proved impossible for any Italian manufacturer to compete in the mainstream motorcycle market. The same arguments were presented in 2005, Piaggio modernity was Guzzi's savior then too, and their ideas proved to be a failure.
Mainstream isn't going to work, and if they really wanted to give it an all or nothing shot regardless, they would need to stand back and take a hard, honest look at the kind of bike that works the best given today's mainstream technology, not build a totally contrived, technically wacko watercooled longitudinal twin that's got a foot in both camps, and will fail. They would also need to design and build the engine themselves, to retain any sense of authenticity in the market.
I mentioned the 1971 production figure to make it clear that a properly run Moto Guzzi has enough capacity to build any number of engines themselves.
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Here is a question that is posed in sincerity with no sarcasm or snark.....is a Ducati 916 any less of a Ducati than a 750SS? Does the fact the 916 is liquid cooled detract in any way from its' inherent "Ducati-ness"? Forget which you would prefer to own and just think about whether one is less of a "Ducati" than the other.
For me, they are both iconic bikes from the same manufacturer. That the 916 happens to have a radiator would not detract from my enjoyment of it. Like Guzzi, Ducati was originally know for singles before branching into twins. The Ducati L twin is every bit as aligned with Ducati's past as Guzzi's V twin. I see a potential LC Guzzi in this framework.
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I'd like to see some new models...
at the same time I'd like to see pushrod Tonti-based bikes...and 8v Vtwin LeMans + cafe sport bike too. Would be nice to get about 110 hp from that 8v...
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Here is a question that is posed in sincerity with no sarcasm or snark.....is a Ducati 916 any less of a Ducati than a 750SS? Does the fact the 916 is liquid cooled detract in any way from its' inherent "Ducati-ness"? Forget which you would prefer to own and just think about whether one is less of a "Ducati" than the other.
For me, they are both iconic bikes from the same manufacturer. That the 916 happens to have a radiator would not detract from my enjoyment of it. Like Guzzi, Ducati was originally know for singles before branching into twins. The Ducati L twin is every bit as aligned with Ducati's past as Guzzi's V twin. I see a potential LC Guzzi in this framework.
The 916 was the product of two excellent engineers, Tamburini and Bordi, and is just as much a Ducati as the 70s SS. The difference is that water cooling was a natural fit for their engine configuration and design intent. In the late 80s, when Bordi went to water cooling, the intent was to increase power density for racing, a very different application, using a cylinder configuration that was compromised for handling and against good cooling from day one. In the early 90s, that was useful for Tamburini in designing a productionized Bimota. None of the above has anything to do with Moto Guzzi or its potential 2013 market.
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Here is a question that is posed in sincerity with no sarcasm or snark.....is a Ducati 916 any less of a Ducati than a 750SS? Does the fact the 916 is liquid cooled detract in any way from its' inherent "Ducati-ness"? Forget which you would prefer to own and just think about whether one is less of a "Ducati" than the other.
For me, they are both iconic bikes from the same manufacturer. That the 916 happens to have a radiator would not detract from my enjoyment of it. Like Guzzi, Ducati was originally know for singles before branching into twins. The Ducati L twin is every bit as aligned with Ducati's past as Guzzi's V twin. I see a potential LC Guzzi in this framework.
The difference is: the liquid-cooled Ducati engines are derived from the original Fabio Taglioni designed air-cooled engine of the early '80s, so have direct lineage. A new water-cooled "Guzzi" engine will most definitely not be derived from either of the present air-cooled engines, so the line will be broken.
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Fabio Taglioni designed the air cooled Ducati engines, including the belt drive engines. Bordi was his protege and the rest is correct :-)
Bordi is now leading Cagiva/MV in his 60s after years out of the motorcycle biz.
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Definitely winter.
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At the moment Guzzi does not have to survive on its own. It's a branch of Piaggio. Piaggio bought Guzzi to round out it's fleet of available offerings. I think it would be better served doing what it's doing, but doing it one step better. It has done this to some extent over the past couple of years with the 8 valve big blocks. It would be nice to get an 8 valve small block. Next it needs to offer some of those award-winning bikes into the marketplace. This might open some eyes!! A little better quality control thrown in wouldn't hurt. I don't think throwing in water-cooling is Guzzi's answer in competing with most everyone else. Is it necessary to be like everyone else to compete with everyone else? Ask Steve Jobs at Apple about that. I still think they have a gem in the rough with the current mill. If they kept the current transverse V and added some water and kept the weight down, I would be game. I'm afraid more things would change is all and I'm not convinced it's the right answer.
-Kevin
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Personally, I think that there is more to the basic layout of the Guzzi motor than seemingly advantageous cooling.
Porsche and Subaru have long used opposed cylinders that go against the grain of common automotive drivetrains for reasons other than cooling.
The Guzzi layout is one of aesthetic appeal. It's a brand trademark. Hell it's a convenient way to access spark plugs and valves.
To abandon it for a transverse crankshaft would pretty much instantly reduce it to nothing more than another redundant non-descript bike in the crowd.
So, I say there are legitimate reasons for them to produce a LC version of the longitudinal crank/transverse cylinder motor.
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Here is a question that is posed in sincerity with no sarcasm or snark.....is a Ducati 916 any less of a Ducati than a 750SS? Does the fact the 916 is liquid cooled detract in any way from its' inherent "Ducati-ness"? Forget which you would prefer to own and just think about whether one is less of a "Ducati" than the other.
For me, they are both iconic bikes from the same manufacturer. That the 916 happens to have a radiator would not detract from my enjoyment of it. Like Guzzi, Ducati was originally know for singles before branching into twins. The Ducati L twin is every bit as aligned with Ducati's past as Guzzi's V twin. I see a potential LC Guzzi in this framework.
plus one
The new motor just has to make sense to 1/2 of the old Guzzi gaurd, of which 20% will then buy the new bike within 18 months of introduction. Simultanusly attracing at least twice the number of exitsting Guzzista, of which 30% then purchase a new H2O. That would make for a very real sales increases. I think that's very possible, and a good thing for the brand.
But Please don't kill the air cooled motor, I'm air cooled to the end.
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Personally, I think that there is more to the basic layout of the Guzzi motor than seemingly advantageous cooling.
Porsche and Subaru have long used opposed cylinders that go against the grain of common automotive drivetrains for reasons other than cooling.
The Guzzi layout is one of aesthetic appeal. It's a brand trademark. Hell it's a convenient way to access spark plugs and valves.
To abandon it for a transverse crankshaft would pretty much instantly reduce it to nothing more than another redundant non-descript bike in the crowd.
So, I say there are legitimate reasons for them to produce a LC version of the longitudinal crank/transverse cylinder motor.
You Go Bro!
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Let's see.... $70 million engineering cost divided by 10,000 additional sales before the market moves on... That's only $7000/bike in additional engineering cost.
Heck if it sells like the V4 Aprilia they'll have a winner on their hands. Not.
Why change? It's been the Aprilia/Piaggio business model since the Futura and Caponord.
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Geez I wonder if the Triumph guys get as pissy. Winter is right. As much as i liked my old bonneville and trident, I'd love to have a new tiger. Chain and all.
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This is a good exchange of info and ideas, I am really glad we can have it. :) :)
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...Almost bought a Tiger
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Let's see.... $70 million engineering cost divided by 10,000 additional sales before the market moves on... That's only $7000/bike in additional engineering cost.
Heck if it sells like the V4 Aprilia they'll have a winner on their hands. Not.
They've already done the engineering on the Aprilli. It's a water cooled 90° DOHC Vee Twin. ???
Quote from: Kev m on Today at 07:28:37 PM
So, I say there are legitimate reasons for them to produce a LC version of the longitudinal crank/transverse cylinder motor.
Yeah! Because it's the best overall layout & we like it. ;-T
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Why can't Guzzi develop a V4, V6, or V8 format like the Morbidelli? It would
be identifiable as a "guzzi" but yet offer a new powerplant with perhaps new
capabilities. Liquid cool the darn thing I don't care. But I think they need to
stick to an engine format that says "Guzzi" and looks "Guzzi".
Look at how BMW tried to drop the basic air cooled horizontally opposed twin
approx 20 years ago or so... and found that the market really did want the twin.
So they updated the twin and kept up a separate program of developing the Brick
laid over multi-cylinder water cooled mills... and have done quite well in sales
over the last twenty years and are thriving.
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Fabio Taglioni designed the air cooled Ducati engines, including the belt drive engines. Bordi was his protege and the rest is correct :-)
Bordi is now leading Cagiva/MV in his 60s after years out of the motorcycle biz.
Darn, I knew that! Got my "T"s mixed up... ;)
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Why can't Guzzi develop a V4, V6, or V8 format like the Morbidelli? It would
be identifiable as a "guzzi" but yet offer a new powerplant with perhaps new
capabilities. Liquid cool the darn thing I don't care. But I think they need to
stick to an engine format that says "Guzzi" and looks "Guzzi".
TBH a V4,6,8 would be better as a transversely mounted motor with chain drive. There was a concept drawing of a modernised V8 with a stylised dustbin fairing kicking around on the net a few years ago
(http://www.motorradonline.de/sixcms/media.php/11/guzzi_v8.jpg)
Now it won't fit in any race series but aim it hyperbikes like the Hyabusa and I think they could be onto something new customer base etc etc. But again look how much debate simply going to water cooling has generated in the ultraconservative Guzzi crowd like I said in an earlier post I don't think it is a option with current emission regulations. As to going to a four valve small block design I think they would be better off with a complete redesign like they have done with the big blocks, they can't revive the lario motor it was seriously unreliable from the factory and it won't pass current emissions ever.
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Let's see.... $70 million engineering cost divided by 10,000 additional sales before the market moves on... That's only $7000/bike in additional engineering cost.
Heck if it sells like the V4 Aprilia they'll have a winner on their hands. Not.
Why change? It's been the Aprilia/Piaggio business model since the Futura and Caponord.
Exactly right on.
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Wow - a whole lot of conjecture from a two paragraph article. Regardless I say I'm glad to hear Piaggio is putting $$ into Guzzi development. I prefer aircooled, twin, carburated, chain dirven bikes, but will always buy the bike that pleases me the most despite how it is configured. Big plus for the present Guzzi line. Let's see what tomorrow brings. Remember what old Abe said about Pleasing all the people all of the time.
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I'm sure there will be gnashing of teeth and strident claims that the faithful Guzzisti would never be seen dead on it while they rattle on about designers who've been dead for 30 years, etc, etc, etc. I like it. I dunno about the cut outs for the heads in the tank but I like the shape of the tank a lot better than the flaccid whale penis shape of the current Cali. I'd buy one.
So far Piaggio has heard and addressed every major complaint on the Norge and Stelvio. They're bringing a new Cali to market. They're exploring LC to carry the Guzzi brand into the future.
I have no idea what they're like to deal with on the dealer level but as a consumer, I coluldn't ask for more.
http://www.motoblog.it/post/28018/foto-spia-delle-nuove-moto-guzzi-california-e-v7-scrambler
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Photos are very grainy and hard to see details. Would like to see a better shot of that V7 "Scrambler!" :) 8) ;-T
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Kinda neat looking. I have to wonder how much gas volume they sacrificed on that tank though.
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$$flaccid whale penis shape$$
Freaking original!!! if you say so. lol
whats with the high pipes tho thot they went out in the 70's. I personally never liked riding high pipe bikes, so wide top heavy etc.. I have a CL Honda only one left
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Kinda neat looking. I have to wonder how much gas volume they sacrificed on that tank though.
One way to get around that would be going the Goldwing route of using the "tank" as the airbox and putting the actual gas tank under the seat. The seat looks pretty large and the side covers could be hiding a tank?
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Photos are very grainy and hard to see details. Would like to see a better shot of that V7 "Scrambler!" :) 8) ;-T
+1!
-AJ
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It's pre-production show bike, who knows what it will look like when we are allowed to have them.
Dean
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To me it looks like the Griso and the Cali had a child. ;D
The V7 Scrambler.... awesome! I always loved Scramblers... lets just hope it has more than just an exhaust and knee pads added.
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I agree the scrambler looks cool, the cali.... I don't like it.
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Interesting.
But need to see better quality pix.
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Terrific! Several weeks ago I suggested that Guzzi make a 750 scrambler in the fashion of Triumph. Glad that it's happening. I hope that tank pads can be ordered, I'd like to add them to my V7C.
Even though this is just cosmetic, it should add life to the ever-enduring smallblock.
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Definitley like the Scrambler,Id have to see better pics of the Cali to decide. Not too bad though.
Sam
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I didn't like either of them. I bet they're for the foriegn market and never reach our shores.
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" The new generation of California, by contrast, has long been the talk of the Guzzi, and only now shows in the most modern interpretations.
Reflecting the style of the latter, we see from the few photos available a clear trend that recalls the old models of Guzzi cruiser, reinterpreted in modern salsa. A remake that seems to be well managed, from the solid front, through the brand new engine (probably some time in a brand new 3-valve) up to the tail short and catchy, son of the design of the 850 California T3 and Custom small number of the years 70/80."
I would hold the Salsa!
Don't care for the styling, the bike looks long and those notches in the tank look goofy. Why not put that 3 valver in the Cal Vin / EV and go back to the elegant slender tanks of the 70s?
The scrambler looks pretty neat. I'd like to see the power upped to compete with the Bonneville.
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those look like 6" inch models to me...and why would Piaggo go through the work of building those, then not produce some solid photos to show the world.....but what do i know..
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One word: Fugly.
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Maybe they're made out of wood they have done that before.
Dean
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Lower HP notwithstanding, I'll miss the 2 valve big block motor.
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One word: Fugly.
Agreed.
-
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The images are cellphone pics snapped during the Piaggio Group Monte Carlo meeting. I don't believe that they're mockups but I have no special knowledge. I just think there are too many details for them to be mockups.
The tank has a Centauro flavor to me and as I said earlier, I'm undecided on the cut outs. Judging from the pic of it next to the Scrambler, it has a very low seat height and it's not any larger than the current Cali(though the engine may be).
The whining has begun. Took longer than I thought it would. :BEER:
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Call me Ishmael, but I likes me a flaccid whale penis tank! ;-T
But I don't like this trend toward trying to make the smallblock the new "Cali". The proper Cali is and always has been a big block.
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Piaggio has a long tradition of excellent, smart engineering. They, like Aermacchi, built aircraft long before they went into the two wheeled market. Whaddya know? They still do!
http://www.piaggioaero.com/ (http://www.piaggioaero.com/)
So let's just say, ya know, for argument's sake, that they have some good engineering. And let's just say, for argument's sake, that Moto Guzzi's Quality Control has been "getting better", but really, the bar was pretty freekin' low there, since like, sometime after DeTomaso took over and the old guard left.
Let's also say, ya know, for argument's sake, that Guzzi holds on to their designs a little too long and that has hosed the company over since the '60s. The Guzzino was in production long after its rivals went zooming by. The Lodola? The Stornello was in production until 1974! Worst of all was the Falcone, which was an amazing bike in 1957 even, but in 1965 it was just a sad clown at the circus.
Everyone keeps wanting the past to just be like it is today, and that's just not gonna happen. The new Ducati techno-cruiser vs the Griso? Not even a contest, yet there are many people that would say the original LeMans was the better bike when put up next to the Duc 750s. Put any Duc up against a modern Guzzi and it's just not the same.
How many air-cooled bikes produce more than 100hp without having stupidly huge motors? Guzzi has done a commendable job with getting all the ponies that it does out of it's air cooled motors, but, like the horizontal 500cc Single, it's just not a viable design anymore.
There are thousands upon thousands of Tonti-framed bikes out on the market. If you want to have a nice air-cooled Guzzi that you can wrench at home and get parts for, well, eBay is your oyster. The world doesn't want Guzzis like they are being made now, at 3000 units a year. Guzzi will die if it continues down the path, just like it was dying when they stuck to the 500cc engine too long and were saved by sheer luck in having the V motor. They were DEAD, and they got lucky by building a great bike and getting adoption in the US.
Guzzi US may have some issues and I'm sure there are dealers out there with early-onset gray hair, and substance recovery issues, but they have to find a better market or die. Most of the people on this list haven't bought new Guzzis in the last 5 years, and I would bet that 75% haven't bought a new Guzzi in the last 20. Unfortunately, the new Guzzi will not be aimed at the median demo rider on this forum -- they have to find a younger more affluent market.
How many Guzzi rallies have you attended when the "youngest" Guzzi owner was in their late 30's? 40s?
If you want to see what a water-cooled Guzzi California would look like -- http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2011/01/spy-photos-moto-guzzi-v7-scrambler-and-california/ (http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2011/01/spy-photos-moto-guzzi-v7-scrambler-and-california/) - along with an air-cooled V7 scrambler.
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Oh my god. I found a post by Danilo that I agree with every single word. ~;
I wonder if some of the anti-Piaggio feeling is a reflection of the how the dealers feel about working with Piaggio rather than the consumer? When I had all my warranty repairs done, I was extremely happy with how Piaggio responded and how they instructed the dealer to handle my case.
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I agree Danilo. Those new folks aren't going to by transverse-V engines that are water-cooled any more than they bought the air-cooled versions.
It's time to move on to—or at least add on—another engine architecture that has chance of bringing success. The transverse-V has been a sales loser for 40 years. The architecture is what keeps Guzzi stuck in the past, not the fact that it's air-cooled.
Guzzi has been bankrupt almost continually since the V7 engine's inception.
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Piaggio has a long tradition of excellent, smart engineering. They, like Aermacchi, built aircraft long before they went into the two wheeled market. Whaddya know? They still do!
http://www.piaggioaero.com/ (http://www.piaggioaero.com/)
Piaggio Aero is a separate company: "In 1959, Piaggio came under the control of the Agnelli family, the owners of car maker Fiat SpA. Resultantly, as the wider ownership of Fiat in Italian industry, in the 1964 the two divisions (aeronautical and motorcycle) split to become two independent companies; the aeronautical division was named IAM Rinaldo Piaggio. Today the aircraft-company Piaggio Aero is controlled by the family of Piero Ferrari, who also still holds 10% of the famous car maker Ferrari."
So let's just say, ya know, for argument's sake, that they have some good engineering. And let's just say, for argument's sake, that Moto Guzzi's Quality Control has been "getting better", but really, the bar was pretty freekin' low there, since like, sometime after DeTomaso took over and the old guard left.
DeTomaso cheapened everything when he arrived, driving the quality down from what the "old guard" produced.
Let's also say, ya know, for argument's sake, that Guzzi holds on to their designs a little too long and that has hosed the company over since the '60s. The Guzzino was in production long after its rivals went zooming by. The Lodola? The Stornello was in production until 1974! Worst of all was the Falcone, which was an amazing bike in 1957 even, but in 1965 it was just a sad clown at the circus.
This is what I admired most about Guzzi up until the late 90's - they were a conservative company that refined the product instead of replacing it every few years. Durable goods vs. disposable.
How many air-cooled bikes produce more than 100hp without having stupidly huge motors? Guzzi has done a commendable job with getting all the ponies that it does out of it's air cooled motors, but, like the horizontal 500cc Single, it's just not a viable design anymore.
Why does anyone need more than 100hp in a motorcycle? IMO, it's socially and environmentally irresponsible to build such bikes.
Most of the people on this list haven't bought new Guzzis in the last 5 years, and I would bet that 75% haven't bought a new Guzzi in the last 20. Unfortunately, the new Guzzi will not be aimed at the median demo rider on this forum -- they have to find a younger more affluent market.
"Guzzi" hasn't built anything I'd want since about '98. Bought my two new ones when they were making real Guzzis.
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Photos are very grainy and hard to see details. :) 8) ;-T
I like the California.
There are rumors that it may have a 3 valve setup (si parla da qualche tempo di un nuovissimo 3 valvole)
(http://s4.postimage.org/1iyydqvz8/dsc01295w.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1iyydqvz8/)
The Scrambler.....nahhh h
(http://s3.postimage.org/xnutpnno/dsc01296ur.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/xnutpnno/)
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You guys are putting way too much emphasis on the engine! Admit it... Guzzi has had long-in-the-tooth designs, poor dealer network, poor parts network, poor quality control, poor advertising, etc.. Will anyone argue with me there?? Again... how many people know about Guzzi? This is most telling! Have you guys lost sight of the big picture maybe? If I knew more than 1 in 10 on the street that ever heard of Guzzi I might agree that they don't like their bikes or engine. I will say this again... the current Guzzi engine is new to 9 out of 10 people.
Make a stunningly beautiful Italian machine, bring in some good quality control, advertise it, get a solid dealer and parts network to support it, and there's your success formula. You can't convince me that a new engine design in there current line-up of bikes will get those folks that say "Guzzi... what's that?" to all of a sudden pull their wallet out any more than they already are. There's so much more to it that needs fixing first.
-Kevin
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I like both new bikes especially the scrambler. Can't wait to see higher resolution pictures.
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Are these Terblanche designs?
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I agree with kevdog. Kids (squids) huddle around my Sport 1100 and ignore my buddies GSXR. Those kids see those bikes (GSXRs, Ninja's, CBRs, etc.) all the time. My Guzzi is different. They're shocked to find out that it is vintage 1996.
Eric
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Are these Terblanche designs?
Can't be. They don't look like rolling suppositories.
I've tried to track down the ultimate source of the photos. I saw them on ADVrider this morning and they were linked to Moto.blog. Moto.blog says the images came from Anima Guzzista. It does appear that is wherre these images originated. I've been going back and forth as to whether they were photos of scale models as Chuck suggested because the light reflecting on the Cali tank seems odd. However, on Anima there are some additional photos that show people's heads in the foreground as if the iPhone was held up to snap a surreptitious pic from the audience.
They are either authentic and from the Monte Carlo meeting or a very skilled ruse meant to crush the souls of the Italian Guzzi fanatics at Anima.
Apparent from the pics over there are that the bike has twin shocks. Must be a Tonti derived frame which is nice for the historical link. I do think the gas is under the seat judging by the size of the heads and tank cutouts. Looks like it's sporting radials on multi spoked mag wheels.
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"These photos arrive directly from Montecarlo, where the Piaggio Group has carried out the dealer meeting, and ritraggono two new Guzzi Motion on which it is vocifera for a long time. The V7 Scrambler appears to surprise, often cited from passionate and cultori of the style vintage of Mandello, but never confirmed from the same house. California of new generation, instead, is from years on the mouth of all the guzzisti, and only now extension in most modern of the interpretations. Stopping to us on the style of this last one, we notice from the little photos available a clean evolution that recalls the old models cruiser of Guzzi, reinterpretandoli in modern sauce. A remake that it seems very successful, beginning from solid the front one, passing for the unknown motor (speaks from some time about a new 3 valves) till to arrive short to the codino and winning, son of the design of the 850 T3 California and the Custom small series of years 70/80. The V7 Scrambler is a innovation, but it knows already seen. A new tank, a beautiful manubrione and two high drainages, cannot certainly carry a gust of ancient freschezza to the bicylindrical one of 750cc, than also in this version it does not seem to change. The look much decidedly evocativo grintoso appears however and, as of the rest all the small vintage called V7."
-babelfish-
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I'd love to see more horizontal lies in the Cali but since I will be unlikely to get rid of the Calvin and don't want to be redundant in bikes - I will probably never buy one anyhow.
I specifically painted mine black with no striping to get rid of that nasty '80's melted-Euro-interpretation-of-an-American-cruiser look. Some day I hope to get around to re-shaping and enlarging my extra tank to lose that bit of dangling anatomy - and the side covers as well.
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(http://static.blogo.it/motoblog/foto-spia-guzzi-california-e-v7-scrambler/guzzi_01.jpg)
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When I talked to the sales rep out near Asheville last fall, he noted that when they advertised less, they sold more. What do you guys think it takes to sell Guzzis? And yeah, a good dealer within 60 miles would be nice, but these are hard times for motorcycle sales (two dealerships out of business in Raleigh in the last 6 months)
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"These photos arrive directly from Montecarlo, where the Piaggio Group has carried out the dealer meeting, and ritraggono two new Guzzi Motion on which it is vocifera for a long time. The V7 Scrambler appears to surprise, often cited from passionate and cultori of the style vintage of Mandello, but never confirmed from the same house. California of new generation, instead, is from years on the mouth of all the guzzisti, and only now extension in most modern of the interpretations. Stopping to us on the style of this last one, we notice from the little photos available a clean evolution that recalls the old models cruiser of Guzzi, reinterpretandoli in modern sauce. A remake that it seems very successful, beginning from solid the front one, passing for the unknown motor (speaks from some time about a new 3 valves) till to arrive short to the codino and winning, son of the design of the 850 T3 California and the Custom small series of years 70/80. The V7 Scrambler is a innovation, but it knows already seen. A new tank, a beautiful manubrione and two high drainages, cannot certainly carry a gust of ancient freschezza to the bicylindrical one of 750cc, than also in this version it does not seem to change. The look much decidedly evocativo grintoso appears however and, as of the rest all the small vintage called V7."
-babelfish-
That sums it up for me, in both spirit and verbage.
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I agree with kevdog. Kids (squids) huddle around my Sport 1100 and ignore my buddies GSXR. Those kids see those bikes (GSXRs, Ninja's, CBRs, etc.) all the time. My Guzzi is different. They're shocked to find out that it is vintage 1996.
Eric
There are lots of folks that look at these Guzzi's and think they're really cool bikes. Once they do their research and find out the closest dealer is hundreds of miles away they stop looking. If they can look past that and talk to a Guzzi owner who says "basically you'll learn to work on it yourself since it's got lots of nigglies and it's better to do the work yourself as well as order the parts yourself since it takes so long to get them through a dealer". My God, is it any wonder so few own these things? Dig any further and it only gets scarier! "My bike sat at the dealer most of the summer because of an oil leak. The dealer couldn't get the gasket from Italy". You think it needs a new engine to bring sales up... really? Never once have I had to convince someone that this engine really does the job, but I have had to try to convince folks that they're easy to work on, parts can be found, and don't worry about having to go to the dealer for everything. That's the hardest sale to make and it takes a rare bird to bite, like us rare birds.
Just how I see it.
-Kevin
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OK, Google is much better at this;
Italian to English translation
"These photos come directly from Monte Carlo, where the Piaggio Group has done
dealer meeting, and depicting two new Moto Guzzi on which is rumored for some time. V7
Scrambler is a surprise, often mentioned by fans and lovers of style
Vintage Mandello, but never confirmed by the house. The new California
generation, however, has long been the talk of the Guzzi, and only now shows
in the most modern interpretations.
Reflecting the style of the latter, we note from a few photos available
distinct shift reminiscent of the old models of Guzzi cruiser, reinterpreted in
modern salsa. A remake that seems to be well managed, from the massive front
through the unprecedented engine (probably some time in a brand new 3-valve)
up to the tail short and catchy, son of the design of the 850 T3
California Custom and the small number of the years 70/80.
The V7 is a new Scrambler, but he knows already seen. A new reservoir, a beautiful
manubrione and two high exhausts, simply can not bring a breath of fresh air
the ancient twin-cylinder 750cc, which in this version does not seem to change. The
look is still very feisty and very evocative, like all
small vintage called V7.
Photos evade inspection of the dealer meeting, coming directly from the soul of Moto Guzzi forum, the largest community of cross-Italian twins, who welcomed the new proposals, but with a hint of skepticism. California, the most mysterious and unexpected character of this picture, still do not know anything definitive about the production version of the list and the engine mount. From the photos we can only infer that this is an original version, with assembled heads an innovative design in high position, so much to go to cash in the design of the tank to drop.
We will try to unravel the mysteries that as soon as possible."
-
I agree with kevdog. Kids (squids) huddle around my Sport 1100 and ignore my buddies GSXR. Those kids see those bikes (GSXRs, Ninja's, CBRs, etc.) all the time. My Guzzi is different. They're shocked to find out that it is vintage 1996.
Eric
There are lots of folks that look at these Guzzi's and think they're really cool bikes. Once they do their research and find out the closest dealer is hundreds of miles away they stop looking. If they can look past that and talk to a Guzzi owner who says "basically you'll learn to work on it yourself since it's got lots of nigglies and it's better to do the work yourself as well as order the parts yourself since it takes so long to get them through a dealer". My God, is it any wonder so few own these things? Dig any further and it only gets scarier! "My bike sat at the dealer most of the summer because of an oil leak. The dealer couldn't get the gasket from Italy". You think it needs a new engine to bring sales up... really? Never once have I had to convince someone that this engine really does the job, but I have had to try to convince folks that they're easy to work on, parts can be found, and don't worry about having to go to the dealer for everything. That's the hardest sale to make and it takes a rare bird to bite, like us rare birds.
Just how I see it.
-Kevin
;-T +1
-
I agree with kevdog. Kids (squids) huddle around my Sport 1100 and ignore my buddies GSXR. Those kids see those bikes (GSXRs, Ninja's, CBRs, etc.) all the time. My Guzzi is different. They're shocked to find out that it is vintage 1996.
Eric
Thats nice would they be still interested when they find out it can't drag a modern 600 in a straight line (it can't I've tried and mine isn't exactly stock). When the 1100 sport came out a 90hp sport bike was still in the market even the weight and size it was. In the current market it is a dinosaur not only its HP but he speed it accelerates all that mass inside the motor compared to a modern bike even a twin it has all the response of a ships telegraph. They tried to improve engine response in the 1100 griso's and Breva's but lightening the internal mass it worked but the mid range the older bikes had went MIA. They did the same with the MGS who's acceleration is rat up a drain pipe stuff its great providing you keep it above 5000rpm I'm glad they didn't capitulate and put the two valve motor in the MGS and sold as a street bike like some people wanted it would of been a joke.
Piaggio is a successful business they won't prop up Guzzi out of sentimentality for ever, Guzzi needs to move on or it will be consigned to the history books.
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Nuovo California: Long and Low. Nice. Twin shocks, but an odd looking left side of the swingarm. I'm wondering if they've got a new casting based on the CARC, but one which has a left side... Twin shocks for the purists! Pipe appears for all the world to be a 2:1 left-side. I'd sure like to see a right side photo. I agree with others. from the looks of it, the fuel may not be in the fuel tank, but lower and partially under the seat, ala Ducati Multistrada, maybe? I like the seat. The bike looks edgy and modern. There is something about the styling that makes me think GL1000 instead of Ambo/Eldo, though, and that sorta bothers me... Overall, I like it. Can't wait to see more!
V7 Scrambler? Yep. Sweet! Brang it!
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I think the white one is less off a Cali replacement and more of the Ambo/Eldo retro the US market has been constantly whining for for who knows how long. Although the head on it looks pretty big I'm wondering if its packing the current fourvalve motor.
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Personally, I think that there is more to the basic layout of the Guzzi motor than seemingly advantageous cooling.
Porsche and Subaru have long used opposed cylinders that go against the grain of common automotive drivetrains for reasons other than cooling.
The Guzzi layout is one of aesthetic appeal. It's a brand trademark. Hell it's a convenient way to access spark plugs and valves.
To abandon it for a transverse crankshaft would pretty much instantly reduce it to nothing more than another redundant non-descript bike in the crowd.
So, I say there are legitimate reasons for them to produce a LC version of the longitudinal crank/transverse cylinder motor.
Agreed!
Valve adjustment access. Heck, general top end removal access!
The ability to put something in the vee. Frame tube, electrics, fuel, whatever.
If it's gonna be shaft, the crank may as well be longitudinal.
Etc, etc...
The "cylinders in the breeze for cooling" deal is just one of several reasons...
-
OK, Google is much better at this;
Italian to English translation
"These photos come directly from Monte Carlo, where the Piaggio Group has done
dealer meeting, and depicting two new Moto Guzzi on which is rumored for some time. V7
Scrambler is a surprise, often mentioned by fans and lovers of style
Vintage Mandello, but never confirmed by the house. The new California
generation, however, has long been the talk of the Guzzi, and only now shows
in the most modern interpretations.
Reflecting the style of the latter, we note from a few photos available
distinct shift reminiscent of the old models of Guzzi cruiser, reinterpreted in
modern salsa. A remake that seems to be well managed, from the massive front
through the unprecedented engine (probably some time in a brand new 3-valve)
up to the tail short and catchy, son of the design of the 850 T3
California Custom and the small number of the years 70/80.
The V7 is a new Scrambler, but he knows already seen. A new reservoir, a beautiful
manubrione and two high exhausts, simply can not bring a breath of fresh air
the ancient twin-cylinder 750cc, which in this version does not seem to change. The
look is still very feisty and very evocative, like all
small vintage called V7.
Photos evade inspection of the dealer meeting, coming directly from the soul of Moto Guzzi forum, the largest community of cross-Italian twins, who welcomed the new proposals, but with a hint of skepticism. California, the most mysterious and unexpected character of this picture, still do not know anything definitive about the production version of the list and the engine mount. From the photos we can only infer that this is an original version, with assembled heads an innovative design in high position, so much to go to cash in the design of the tank to drop.
We will try to unravel the mysteries that as soon as possible."
The babelfish seems more on-point and true to my reaction. The hypebole and adjectives seem more . . . . trendy, especially in light of the vapid origins of the blog. Sort of a middle-earth v hyperspace sort of surrealistic doggerel. Just imagine smurfs riding alligators and it all comes together in an orgasmically metaphorical sort of nonseqiuterial diacom.
ymmv
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I wonder if Greg Field could offer up anything on the Cali?
He mentioned a year or so back of seeing some pretty far along photos of the new Cali, that has not yet made it to market, is this similar to what you saw Greg?
-
I agree with kevdog. Kids (squids) huddle around my Sport 1100 and ignore my buddies GSXR. Those kids see those bikes (GSXRs, Ninja's, CBRs, etc.) all the time. My Guzzi is different. They're shocked to find out that it is vintage 1996.
Eric
Thats nice would they be still interested when they find out it can't drag a modern 600 in a straight line (it can't I've tried and mine isn't exactly stock). When the 1100 sport came out a 90hp sport bike was still in the market even the weight and size it was. In the current market it is a dinosaur not only its HP but he speed it accelerates all that mass inside the motor compared to a modern bike even a twin it has all the response of a ships telegraph. They tried to improve engine response in the 1100 griso's and Breva's but lightening the internal mass it worked but the mid range the older bikes had went MIA. They did the same with the MGS who's acceleration is rat up a drain pipe stuff its great providing you keep it above 5000rpm I'm glad they didn't capitulate and put the two valve motor in the MGS and sold as a street bike like some people wanted it would of been a joke.
Piaggio is a successful business they won't prop up Guzzi out of sentimentality for ever, Guzzi needs to move on or it will be consigned to the history books.
If straight line speed is all you want, you have a myriad of bikes to choose from, but really only a few that compete for top honors. There... I've narrowed your search to a few. Now go ride them and see how fun they are as an everyday rider. If you want Guzzi to compete with those few, it will be the end of Guzzi. They won't do it better, they won't advertise as well, they won't have a dealer network that's as good, and their parts will be more expensive and take longer to get than those others. Will you still buy one? Guzzi is for the common man that enjoys a more visceral experience with his machine. He looks at UJM's as nothing more than unusable power that's a waste to him, not to mention mundane bliss. He cannot relate to having something so unrelated to his own abilities and limits and work ethic he puts in his everyday life. The Guzzi is this common person! We appreciate the hard work it puts in for us, how it does most of what we ask of it (even in those passionate moments), as well as the soulful charm of its operatic voice. There's no other make to replace it for me, so I don't care about that speed you're talking about. Harley's done ok without it also. Race one of them lately??
-Kevin
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Greg said,
"I agree Danilo. Those new folks aren't going to by transverse-V engines that are water-cooled any more than they bought the air-cooled versions.
It's time to move on to—or at least add on—another engine architecture that has chance of bringing success. The transverse-V has been a sales loser for 40 years. The architecture is what keeps Guzzi stuck in the past, not the fact that it's air-cooled.
Guzzi has been bankrupt almost continually since the V7 engine's inception."
Hmmm, I might be wrong, but I don't think that's the point Danlio is trying to make.
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V7 Scrambler! I'm a happy man!
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Upon futher review of the Nuova Cali photos, that engine sure looks tall. And, there is something dark between the frame tubes. Radiator?
The valve covers look like vaporware.
I'm guessing this is a mockup of the liquid-cooled 3v mill...
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I think that I read somewhere that Piaggio has stated that they want Guzzi to compete with BMW. (Don't shoot me if I did not get that exactly correct) I think that is a good goal for Guzzi. I do not think that it means the end of sporting Guzzis. So I'm wondering why not follw BMWs lead and make an air/oil cooled engine. Design a 4-valve oil cooled head for the engine. I'm not an engineer and don't pretend to understand to all the challenges involved and so this might not be a good idea but... Why not? Seriously.
Eric
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Greg said,
"I agree Danilo. Those new folks aren't going to by transverse-V engines that are water-cooled any more than they bought the air-cooled versions.
It's time to move on to—or at least add on—another engine architecture that has chance of bringing success. The transverse-V has been a sales loser for 40 years. The architecture is what keeps Guzzi stuck in the past, not the fact that it's air-cooled.
Guzzi has been bankrupt almost continually since the V7 engine's inception."
Hmmm, I might be wrong, but I don't think that's the point Danlio is trying to make.
I realize that. Danilo realizes that Guzzi needs to draw in new people to survive. I agree with that. That's where we part company, though. Danilo and others think that modernizing and water-cooling an unpopular motor will suddenly make it popular and make it appeal to all these "new" people Guzzi needs to attract. Further, they think the old-school guys like me are suggesting that modernizing the old lump is folly because we're resistant to change. What I'm really suggesting is that modernizing the old lump is the worst possible course of action because it will drive off the traditionalists and will not draw in enough new converts to pay for the effort. The transverse-V twin motorcycle engine has too many drawbacks to ever really gain popularity. So, I'm suggesting scrapping the old Guzzi motor and finding a new architecture to carry the company forward. Is that more clear?
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+1
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I guess Honda has yet to get the memo that says longitudinal liquid-cooled engine architecture doesn't make sense...
;)
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I guess Honda has yet to get the memo that says longitudinal liquid-cooled engine architecture doesn't make sense...
;)
How many are twins? When you make fours, sixes, or eights, the whole game changes because, displacement for displacement, the stroke will be much less on the multis. Folks here are talking about water-cooling the Guzzi twins. That won't give any sales advantage over the air-cooled motor Piaggio (Guzzi is dead) already has.
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A company that Harley sold for one dollar made this sucker, looks pretty sweeeet to me.... but at only 140 bhp, its a bit down on power for a 675....
(http://www.motorcycledaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/110110top-i.jpg)
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I guess Honda has yet to get the memo that says longitudinal liquid-cooled engine architecture doesn't make sense...
;)
It would seem BMW got the memo about longitudinal twin cylinder engine architecture. With their other 1,2,3,4 & 6 cylinder models. But...
On 27 July 2007, the BMW R1200GS and R1200GS Adventure reached a production record of 100,000 units since its launch in 2004, making it the most popular BMW motorcycle.
Oilhead production history
From the start of oilhead production in 1994 until 27 July 2007, a total of 219,468 oilhead GS bikes were produced.[6] Oilhead GS models are listed below together with production figures where known:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_GS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_GS)
IMHO the Guzzi 90° V is a better layout than the flat BMW Boxer motor.
And as far as water cooling it's just a matter of time and time is running out.
BMW is in the early stages of making an all-new, super-efficient, Euro4 compliant water-cooled replacement for its iconic Boxer engine.
The new engine is being developed because of tough Euro4 emissions which come in to force from 2012, and the current air-cooled engine doesn’t meet the new standards.
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2010/April/apr2310-bmw-gears-up-for-liquid-cooled-gs/ (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2010/April/apr2310-bmw-gears-up-for-liquid-cooled-gs/)
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Folks here are talking about water-cooling the Guzzi twins. That won't give any sales advantage over the air-cooled motor Piaggio (Guzzi is dead) already has.
+101
Greg, a lot of these guys have never learned what you have, they don't know what you know, and they never will. In 10 years they'll be preaching some other transient point of view for some other transient organization. It's not worth caring.
The funniest part is 5-10 years of abject failure by Piaggio and Aprilia in the motorcycle biz, millions lost, propped by their 50 year entrenched GM-style but slowly fading scooter business, characterized as success.
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Folks here are talking about water-cooling the Guzzi twins. That won't give any sales advantage over the air-cooled motor Piaggio (Guzzi is dead) already has.
People love the look of a Guzzi, many would be willing to buy on that basis. But then they find out that the bike they're ogling is 40 hp down on the competition. They don't like that. Period.
We talk a lot of squat on here about most people not being able to use big horsepower, or not really needing big horsepower. Maybe so, but they want it.
So the question is, will water cooling get the existing lump 30 or more extra HP? If so, I believe it would generate a significant sales boost.
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In 10 years they'll be preaching some other transient point of view for some other transient organization.
???
Transient? I'm a youngster in Guzzi years and bought my first one about 30 years ago. And Moto Guzzi has been building unusually configured motorcycles since 1921. That would be about 90 years.
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In 10 years they'll be preaching some other transient point of view for some other transient organization.
???
Transient? I'm a youngster in Guzzi years and bought my first one about 30 years ago. And Moto Guzzi has been building unusually configured motorcycles since 1921. That would be about 90 years.
Piaggio isn't Moto Guzzi.
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. Folks here are talking about water-cooling the Guzzi twins. That won't give any sales advantage over the air-cooled motor Piaggio (Guzzi is dead) already has.
Water cooling will have one advantage over aircooling, in years to come you will be able to sell a water cooled motor for road use. They are not doing because they want too, they are doing it because they have too.
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Sadly, I do not believe that having the likes of Tamburini design an F4-beating LeMans, or Marabese design a Goldwing-beating V-4 uber-tourer could/would "save" Moto Guzzi, or bring it into "the mainstream".
:-\
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. Folks here are talking about water-cooling the Guzzi twins. That won't give any sales advantage over the air-cooled motor Piaggio (Guzzi is dead) already has.
Water cooling will have one advantage over aircooling, in years to come you will be able to sell a water cooled motor for road use. They are not doing because they want too, they are doing it because they have too.
Murray: No disrespect intended, but can I tell you when I first heard this sentiment?
1980. Yep 1980. 31 years, or 210 dog years ago. The guy who said it was as certain of its truth as you are now. Sure, because of the passing of decades, you are probably more right than he, but still, the fat lady ain't sung yet.
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Piaggio isn't Moto Guzzi.
Moto Guzzi hasn't been Moto Guzzi since the 60s. And Triumph isn't Triumph & Chrysler isn't Chrysler & Jeep isn't Willys & Oldsmobile...isn't.
Even Harley has changed hands a couple of times.
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In regards to Moto Guzzi, the above statement is not factual.
There was always an old guard and always a spirit holding on, until very recently. Now, they realized that there is nothing left and have dissipated. Poof. Gone. Believe it or not. It is factual.
In an analogy that should resonate with Americans: Moto Guzzi is Oldsmobile.
Guzzi could possibly be resurrected, but only by an Italian entrepreneur with more romance and money than sense, and it would be a huge undertaking.
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I don't hate it...
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(http://www.nationalsuperbike.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/ducati-1198-white.jpg)
(http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/attachments/street-track/24255d1257885205-terblanches-new-baby-guy-can-make-bikes-moto_guzzi_mgs_01.jpg)
Ducati is doing pretty well with their new designs... and Guzzi has one that is very similar aesthetically . Why not bring the MGS-01 into production for street use?
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I still don't see why liquid cooling would make the bike any less a Guzzi. Hell, why not source a Rotax single and make a shaft drive, KLR style Guzzi for that matter? Put a fricken' baloney slicer on the side and call it good.
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Love me that MGS-01. ;-T Sadly, it will never happen. (Just my opinion)
What makes a guzzi a guzzi?
Essentially: Engine, Clutch/ trans and Shaft drive. Then add in historical models of the lineage like: V7 Sport, Le Mans, Eldorado, California, etc.
So what I think I see here is that Guzzi should not be able to survive as is.
There is great reluctance to change, but change is needed.
The engine is recognized as both - the best part and the part holding the brand back.
I think a two part strategy is needed.
1. Retain the air cooled twin for several more years and keep ministering to the faithful
2. Introduce new engine architecture and transition to it over time using historical names and styling cues.
One of many caveats - It will never work if there are no dealers to support it.
Eric
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I remember all of the same arguments being made in the nineties when the rumor mill indicated that Harley Davidson was developing a liquid cooled engine. It arrived to great fanfare as the V-Rod in 2001 and was going to be the future of the HD v-twin. Guess what? It is now ten years later and the V-rod is no great success and I do not believe that anyone considers it the future of HD. Nor does anyone consider it a "real" Harley Davidson.
As for Moto-Guzzi, I believe that there is nothing we can do to prevent this fabulous marque from slowly disappearing into the history books. Let's enjoy it while it lasts. Scrape up some cash, buy a left over model (I see that there are still "new" 2004 Stones available among many others). Soon, they will be gone and so will Guzzi, its memory kept alive by the faithful.
If you don't believe it, I challenge anyone to mention a "healthy" motorcycle company with a clear product strategy. They have all lost their way. I mean, Honda is building "choppers" for goodness sake. Suzuki didn't even bring any 2010 models into this country. Kawasaki, Yamaha? Who knows. BMW's best seller is now the S1000RR. Certainly a great bike, but what does it have to do with BMW? The "real" beemer guys lust after the "airhead" models that ended production in the eighties. Triumph are probably the smartest guys around, but the Hinckley Triumph has nothing to do with the Meriden Triumph except the name. I "like" the new Triumph but I "love" the old Triumph.
The Triumph analogy is kinda where we stand with Guzzi. I still "love" the current Guzzi, but in a few years when Piaggio is finished with them, I fear I will just "like" Guzzis. I wonder if those left over Stones were still built in Mandello del Lario?
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. Folks here are talking about water-cooling the Guzzi twins. That won't give any sales advantage over the air-cooled motor Piaggio (Guzzi is dead) already has.
Water cooling will have one advantage over aircooling, in years to come you will be able to sell a water cooled motor for road use. They are not doing because they want too, they are doing it because they have too.
Murray: No disrespect intended, but can I tell you when I first heard this sentiment?
1980. Yep 1980. 31 years, or 210 dog years ago. The guy who said it was as certain of its truth as you are now. Sure, because of the passing of decades, you are probably more right than he, but still, the fat lady ain't sung yet.
I really wish there had been an Internet in 1966-67 so we could go back to the archives and hear the "Real Guzzi Is Dead" prognostications when they went from a horizontal exposed-flywheel 500 chain-drive single to a 700cc shaft-drive twin ..... ! Talk about a CHANGE! Talk about the Soul of Guzzi .... !
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I put the photo in iPhoto and enlarged it to full screen. Looks like dual exhaust and a regular non-carc swing arm with huge valve covers and something suspiciously large between the headers. Radial calipers up front on some massive fork legs and a well proportioned headlight. The tank has some chrome details on top; maybe some additional clocks,etc? Those look like cast, non spoke rims. I am not a big fan of cruiser's but this looks like a very good direction for the new Cali.
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First thing I thought of when seeing the Cali, this before reading any of the propaganda, was Ambo. Frankly I would like to see better pics, but on the whole I love it and commend them for trying something other than the eggplant tank that I have a love/hate relationship with. I could be wrong but it vaguely appears to have chrome head covers? If so, I'm not much on bling and never grew to like the chromed ones on the Cali Special I used to have. Still, these couple photos look kinda sexy, modern and new. Obviously, would like to know more about the new mill and other aspects of the bike.
I don't care for Scramblers, so the V7 version here does not appeal to me.
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BMW's best seller is now the S1000RR.
Nope. Sales of the BMW crotch rocket are far from the top of their line. The GS holds that title by a wide margin. The S1000 gets a lot of press play because of it's power etc but sales have not been huge at all.
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$$flaccid whale penis shape$$
Pete?
Izzat you ??? ;D
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Let me start with the negatives, I am not a fan of "Scramblers", so the V7 is not for me. BUT that Cali, I would buy that one in a New-York-Minit. It looks like they have done all the things I would like in a new Cali.....Lower, longer looking, sleek, ( I think the pipes do that ) ,,, and I like the cut outs in the tank, it shows what is truly at the center of each Guzzi, the engine.....at least people won't confuse it with HD. It also looks like there were no changes in rake and trail at the steering head so it should handle as good as or better than the current Cali's, I would like to see the other side to see if they changed the brake pedal system, and went to a more traditional pedal assy .........Regards GabeEv
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What about an 850 Scrambler? Apologies if people have seen this before but I've only just come across it I like it!!!
(http://s2.postimage.org/ela881d0/Guzzi_Scrambler_SMc_Q_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ela881d0/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/eldjaqck/Guzzi_Scrambler_SMc_Q_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/eldjaqck/)
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For those that do not like scramblers, why? I thought everybody thought scramblers were cool. Is it a height thing. I could understand that.
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I really wish there had been an Internet in 1966-67 so we could go back to the archives and hear the "Real Guzzi Is Dead" prognostications when they went from a horizontal exposed-flywheel 500 chain-drive single to a 700cc shaft-drive twin ..... ! Talk about a CHANGE! Talk about the Soul of Guzzi .... !
The biggest change at that time was that the guy who designed the water cooled V8, the current big block v-twin and any number of other things quit, but he stayed in Mandello another 40 years or so doing other things, and so did the company.
The current situation is entirely different.
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SRX6 said "I remember all of the same arguments being made in the nineties when the rumor mill indicated that Harley Davidson was developing a liquid cooled engine. It arrived to great fanfare as the V-Rod in 2001 and was going to be the future of the HD v-twin. Guess what? It is now ten years later and the V-rod is no great success and I do not believe that anyone considers it the future of HD. Nor does anyone consider it a "real" Harley Davidson"
AMF started development on the engine used in the V-Rod in the late 70ies. They also had a liquid cooled 4 cylinder underdevelopment at the same time. We were all quit excited and expected Harley to become competitive on the race track again. Shortly after AMF sold Harley to a "group of investors" who stopped selling motorcycles and started selling Harley Davidson. Like it or not, they knew what they were doing.
Matt
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BMW's best seller is now the S1000RR.
Nope. Sales of the BMW crotch rocket are far from the top of their line. The GS holds that title by a wide margin. The S1000 gets a lot of press play because of it's power etc but sales have not been huge at all.
"BMW S1000RR Outsells the R1200GS in the US for 2010"
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/bmw-s1000rr-out-sells-r1200gs/
I believe that worldwide figures differ, but the point is made.
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Until Harley has little success with it's air-cooled bikes, I will not believe those that preach change is completely necessary to survive and death is inevitable as an air-cooled engine. Harley has a bunch of boneheads running their show, but they have a marketing department that has done brilliant things. They also have dealers everywhere and parts readily available. Harley is the biggest seller in the States?? Maybe?? Why not take a page out of their book? What makes their engines so special at horsepower less than the Guzzi lump (per cc). I could argue (if comparing to Harley's lump) that Guzzi's are too light, too performance driven, and too smooth and linear in their powerband.
Again... Guzzi has a whole new market waiting to hear about them for the first time. Funny how so many people like air cooled bikes but have never heard of a Guzzi. Imagine converting some of them over that want more performance than their old Harley lump! Problem solved with no change except marketing.
-Kevin
p.s. It's all in how you want to look at it. I'm looking at the greatest selling bike manufacturer to get my numbers. Why would you guys look at any other one manufacturer for yours?
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Boy reading this thread I just feel so unworthy to ride my Guzzi, or Aprillia not sure which it is anymore. Maybe i should only like it instead of love it. I guess i just don't understand. Maybe i should just buy a new Triumph Triple and see if i love it as much as my old poorly carbed oil leaking weak framed smokey exhaust non-electric start bonneville that only lasted a few years.
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Boy reading this thread I just feel so unworthy to ride my Guzzi, or Aprillia not sure which it is anymore. Maybe i should only like it instead of love it. I guess i just don't understand. Maybe i should just buy a new Triumph Triple and see if i love it as much as my old poorly carbed oil leaking weak framed smokey exhaust non-electric start bonneville that only lasted a few years.
Sorry Jim, but you are supposed to only love something with ponies that smoke the busa boys! Character don't matter 'cause it's all in the hp figures. hp=$$ and don't forget it! ;-T
Woops... except for Harleys. ;)
-K
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height of the pipes is what i don't like. i like then low running along the sides of the bike
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I think alot of the same people here are on the candle forum complaining about this new thing called electricity that'll change the way we light our homes.
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Upon futher review of the Nuova Cali photos, that engine sure looks tall. And, there is something dark between the frame tubes. Radiator?
The valve covers look like vaporware.
I'm guessing this is a mockup of the liquid-cooled 3v mill...
Looking at the close up pic of the Cali. My thoughts also questioned a radiator sitting in there.
(http://s4.postimage.org/1iyydqvz8/dsc01295w.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1iyydqvz8/)
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Here's the same bikes opened up in photoshop, don't know if it helps but maybe a few more details......
(http://s2.postimage.org/fy2kylt0/guzzi_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fy2kylt0/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/fy5w1ask/guzzi_04.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fy5w1ask/)
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the real problem here is how to market two different lines between MG & Aprillia. I think the two brands have most of the bikes, designs & technology needs covered as much as BMW (except for Gold Wings class) and wider than Ducati. But the brands don't unify and the marketing doesn't equal the whole of the individual parts.
Aprillia has got the sport models and multi-cylinder bikes and Guzzi has traditional tourers & standards. Even worse, the brands are totally separate, even the dealers are largely separate. They don't know how to synergize both names. Would anyone want to see Dorsosuro or RSV4 with Guzzi badges? Could Guzzi get the next superbike design? Perhaps the new Norge would be powered by RSV4 engine? Still, how can they leverage off the Moto Guzzi GP history without taking it away from Aprillia? Does anyone want to see a bike called an Aprillia-Guzzi?
I think many of the pieces are in place, just how do you put it all together?
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I think alot of the same people here are on the candle forum complaining about this new thing called electricity that'll change the way we light our homes.
Candle forum? What's that? I'm still posting on the Rub two sticks together forum! ;-T
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Back to the article in Motorcyclist about a longitudinal water-cooled V-Twin with canted forward cylinders. How does that work? How do you cant cylinders forward with the crankshaft running fore and aft? The piece goes onto say that's being done to increase legroom and place more weight toward the front wheel. But I can't visualize how this is to be done. Now if the crank was transverse and it was a parallel twin I have no problem. Someone shed some light please! **C
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I think alot of the same people here are on the candle forum complaining about this new thing called electricity that'll change the way we light our homes.
Candle forum? What's that? I'm still posting on the Rub two sticks together forum! ;-T
Wow, does rubbing two sticks together really work? My tribe makes sure that the fire never goes out (we're not sure how it got started).
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how come Piagio doesn't release some photos?
This is back-assward marketing.
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I say bring it on. I also frequent the Allpar forum and it is disappointing to hear folks over there talking about how Chrysler and Dodge need to survive in the coming market (spelled gas prices) and still believe the 318 is the way to go. (Sorry GuzziMike, as much as I love the 318, the new Pentastar V6 & the 2.4 are the future)
ARRRGH...Bite yer tongue, Heathen..!
I'm still saving my Ducats so that I can get a 426 Hemi to drop into my '68 Dart...
Or maybe I'll just retrofit a stroker kit to my existing 383 and turn it into a 500ci Torque-Monster... ~;
http://www.440source.com/strokerkits.htm
383 >> 496. (4.250" stroke/6.535" rod) Approximate Bobweight: 2150
Turn that docile factory 383 block into a fire breathing, pavement twisting engine of almost 500 cubic inches, and no one (even the car show judges) will ever be able to tell it's not a 383... until they go for a ride! The time has arrived to dust off those 383 blocks we've been leaving in the back of the garage all those years. Chrysler made 4 times as many 383's as they did 440's, and it's no longer necessary to dig up a 440 block to get almost 500 cubes!
On a similar vein, reading about Piaggio this and water-cooled that, I'm sure glad that I have my old roundfin... 8)
And speaking of Water-Cooled, them dark/gray clouds we have overhead are looking kinda nasty this morning -
I'm going for a ride before it starts raining...
---
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how Piagio doesn't release some photos?
This is back-assward marketing.
Call me cynical, but I suspect these pics have been carefully produced and released by Guzzi/Piaggio in the crappy form they take to incite exactly the conversation you all are having. They wouldn't create nearly the buzz if they were billed as official photos and done in good light. They're too well planned to be 'spy' shots. The lighting and detail presented/hidden seem very deliberate to me.
$0.02
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how come Piagio doesn't release some photos?
This is back-assward marketing.
Call me cynical, but I suspect these pics have been carefully produced and released by Guzzi/Piaggio in the crappy form they take to incite exactly the conversation you all are having. They wouldn't create nearly the buzz if they were billed as official photos and done in good light. They're too well planned to be 'spy' shots. The lighting and detail presented/hidden seem very deliberate to me.
$0.02
that would make sense if there were any folks left to have a conversation with. Piagio needs to make a big splash, rumor marketing isn't that effective if there's no one there to pass on rumors.
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Upon futher review of the Nuova Cali photos, that engine sure looks tall. And, there is something dark between the frame tubes. Radiator?
The valve covers look like vaporware.
I'm guessing this is a mockup of the liquid-cooled 3v mill...
Looking at the close up pic of the Cali. My thoughts also questioned a radiator sitting in there.
(http://s4.postimage.org/1iyydqvz8/dsc01295w.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1iyydqvz8/)
Oh frig. This is a better image. Someone please tell me those aren't forward boards? :(
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AMF started development on the engine used in the V-Rod in the late 70ies. They also had a liquid cooled 4 cylinder underdevelopment at the same time. We were all quit excited and expected Harley to become competitive on the race track again. Shortly after AMF sold Harley to a "group of investors" who stopped selling motorcycles and started selling Harley Davidson. Like it or not, they knew what they were doing.
Matt
Sort of true. AMF hired Porsche Design to pen a series of modular engines that could use components in common to make a twin-, a four-, and a six-cylinder engine. This was the NOVA project.
The later V-Rod is a different engine.
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how come Piagio doesn't release some photos?
This is back-assward marketing.
Call me cynical, but I suspect these pics have been carefully produced and released by Guzzi/Piaggio in the crappy form they take to incite exactly the conversation you all are having. They wouldn't create nearly the buzz if they were billed as official photos and done in good light. They're too well planned to be 'spy' shots. The lighting and detail presented/hidden seem very deliberate to me.
$0.02
that would make sense if there were any folks left to have a conversation with. Piagio needs to make a big splash, rumor marketing isn't that effective if there's no one there to pass on rumors.
I'm not sure what you mean. It seems to me that these two pages of comments and the article that spawned the topic suggests that there are still folks out there, and they're having a conversation about marketing Guzzi based entirely in rumor. It's not a big splash, but do the bikes even exist?
The really big question to me is -- Can you convince a traditionalist that a small block is a Cali? Maybe that's the real intent here -- forming an unsuspecting focus group to see if they can sneak that one over on us.
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Back to the article in Motorcyclist about a longitudinal water-cooled V-Twin with canted forward cylinders. How does that work? How do you cant cylinders forward with the crankshaft running fore and aft? The piece goes onto say that's being done to increase legroom and place more weight toward the front wheel. But I can't visualize how this is to be done. Now if the crank was transverse and it was a parallel twin I have no problem. Someone shed some light please! **C
There's no light to be shed. It's a stupid idea. They're trying to get the cylinders out of the way of the rider's knees. Why have the cylinders there if you do not need them there for air-cooling? It'd be way smarter to move the cylinders into a configuration that makes sense on a water-cooled machine.
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The Cali as pictured :-X would help solve the seating problem many "full sized" couples have with the current Cali line up. The bike looks stretched. The rear tire seems huge, as well. I'm thinking that Guzzi is trading some of it's traditional good handling for more comfort on this model. All the "cruiser " comparisons might have put pressure on the design staff. Good or bad? Let's wait for the tale of the tape.
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the real problem here is how to market two different lines between MG & Aprillia. I think the two brands have most of the bikes, designs & technology needs covered as much as BMW (except for Gold Wings class) and wider than Ducati. But the brands don't unify and the marketing doesn't equal the whole of the individual parts.
Aprillia has got the sport models and multi-cylinder bikes and Guzzi has traditional tourers & standards. Even worse, the brands are totally separate, even the dealers are largely separate. They don't know how to synergize both names. Would anyone want to see Dorsosuro or RSV4 with Guzzi badges? Could Guzzi get the next superbike design? Perhaps the new Norge would be powered by RSV4 engine? Still, how can they leverage off the Moto Guzzi GP history without taking it away from Aprillia? Does anyone want to see a bike called an Aprillia-Guzzi?
I think many of the pieces are in place, just how do you put it all together?
Now this is a reasonable post! Piaggio is well-positioned with Aprilia and Guzzi. If you folks want more horses, go buy an Aprilia superbike. Why would a company want to transform a marque known for its engine (Guzzi) and make it do what an Aprilia will do? Does that make sense? I honestly don't mind water-cooling on THIS mill as long as it retains the same Guzzi mill. I don't think it's necessary is all. What's utterly unnecessary is to completely change the motor to the like of every other manufacturer for a few ponies. Unless you want to start all over with Guzzi, it doesn't make sense. Could you imagine Harley putting in a whole new mill so they got mega ponies and started all over? What do you think would happen to the company? You can argue that Guzzi sales are much less than Harley's, but I might remind you that it's not because of the motor. As long as Harley's sales figure stay above most bike manufacturers, you will not convince me they need more horses. Look to Buell for more evidence. Buell had a hyped-up Harley mill that should have sold gangbusters according to some of you here. Ok, you argue... they had poor support from Harley that never gave them a prayers chance. Yep... much like Guzzi currently. It aint the mill alone that sells lots of bikes. What else does Guzzi do well to sell their bikes? Nothing! I'm fairly convinced the few sales they do make is only because of their engine. It's sad to see how poorly they have been managed. Change that first!
-Kevin
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Greg: I've admired the Guzzi V Twin of the past when I got off the bike. When I rode, all I could see was the rocker covers and carbs. But the feel of that engine - like NOTHING else. That's what I loved. If making a liquid cooled engine allows Guzzi to be able to sell bikes in Europe in the future and survive, I'll love it.
Besides, the first woman I took for a ride on my V7 Sport proclaimed loudly when we came to a stop: "Ooooo, it shakes!"
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Upon futher review of the Nuova Cali photos, that engine sure looks tall. And, there is something dark between the frame tubes. Radiator?
The valve covers look like vaporware.
I'm guessing this is a mockup of the liquid-cooled 3v mill...
Looking at the close up pic of the Cali. My thoughts also questioned a radiator sitting in there.
(http://s4.postimage.org/1iyydqvz8/dsc01295w.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1iyydqvz8/)
Oh frig. This is a better image. Someone please tell me those aren't forward boards? :(
man, I hope they don't turn the Cali into a cruiser.
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Back to the article in Motorcyclist about a longitudinal water-cooled V-Twin with canted forward cylinders. How does that work? How do you cant cylinders forward with the crankshaft running fore and aft? The piece goes onto say that's being done to increase legroom and place more weight toward the front wheel. But I can't visualize how this is to be done. Now if the crank was transverse and it was a parallel twin I have no problem. Someone shed some light please! **C
There's no light to be shed. It's a stupid idea. They're trying to get the cylinders out of the way of the rider's knees. Why have the cylinders there if you do not need them there for air-cooling? It'd be way smarter to move the cylinders into a configuration that makes sense on a water-cooled machine.
I'm thinking mechanicals here, I understand the comfort and perhaps performance benefits. But how does one cant V-twin cylinders forward when they're tied to a crank running fore and aft? I can't envision the design.
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When you take a look at the rocker-covers on the "spy shot" California, they seem to be unusually tall, which is very reminiscent of the Milipercento water-cooled conversion of the Griso. The Milipercento bikes also have a very similar notch in the tank to accommodate the heads (which I assume are taller due to added plumbing).
(http://s1.postimage.org/2idwmrouc/Milipercento.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2idwmrouc/)
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Check out the similarities of the covers and tank relationship to this:
(http://s1.postimage.org/2if8lcr5w/Milipercento.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2if8lcr5w/)
Could this be another case (as in Ghezzi and Brian) where the factory sees some outside customizers doing interesting things with the bikes and decides to bring them on board (or co-opt their ideas) as a way to get some nice engineering on the cheap? Is this going to be the factory water-cooling?
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"Why would a company want to transform a marque known for its engine"
Well, no. The marque was known for a huge string of GP victories up until 1957. Then it was known for having incredibly outdated bikes. Then it was known for police bikes. Then the V7 Sport came about.
That bike was the DAMNED FASTEST BIKE that you could buy for arguably, a couple of years. Hailwood called it "the best handling street bike in the world" even though Guzzi, even at that time, couldn't afford to pay him to race their stuff.
Guzzi, at the end of 1972, was known for building amazingly solid tourers and having the DAMNED FASTEST BIKE that you could buy. Now, Guzzi is known for having dealers that range from excellent to "a spot on the floor next to the Kymco bikes". They're known for having a bunch of things that need to be "fixed" before delivery. They're known for great bikes once they're set up right, that run forever. They are certainly not known for having the DAMNED FASTEST BIKE, or even the very best handling bike, anymore. It's competition provide lighter faster bikes for better prices and with higher reliability.
Don't change anything? Just keep it the same and make it more reliable? People on this site still complain about Guzzi going to fuel injection, yet they're on their second generation. Show me a world class bike with points and carbs. Please.
Guzzi is dead if it goes down the same path it has followed for the last four decades. Basta! If "too much horsepower" is the complaint (is that from the same people that complain about the V7 Classics LACK of it?) --- Then guess what. A water-cooled motor will allow for a much smaller, lighter motor producing 100 hp, using lighter materials and with much greater efficiency, if that's what you want. If you want to have the "DFB" you can buy, and make Guzzi what it was at it's height during the V-twin era (arguably '71-74), then you have to face facts.
Saying that Piaggio doesn't care about Guzzi is farcical. Hell, they even left the plant up in Mandello -- I would have turned it into a museum and moved it to Pescara where the engineers, QUALITY CONTROL and most of the components are made. Hell, even Ford shutters it's old plants -- I can see the die-hard Ford guys complaining that any Ford not built on the same line as the original Model T is "just a poseur".
You might hate it, but time just moves forward, technology gets better, even if you don't like it, it just does -- how many of you here were late to the party with the internet, saying "I don't need to be connected, yada yada yada", yet there seems to be a community for everyone, even a bunch of polar opposites that like Guzzis whether they are old or new, carbed or not, spoked wheels, small blocks, and retired cops at donut shops.
It's gonna be different -- if you don't like different and wish everything was like a 1000S or V7 Sport, which I would rather own than many new bikes of any brand, there's good news. You can buy Tonti frames, motors, parts both NOS and custom all over the place and build what you like. If you want to embrace the future, well, it's a comin'!
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Back to the article in Motorcyclist about a longitudinal water-cooled V-Twin with canted forward cylinders. How does that work? How do you cant cylinders forward with the crankshaft running fore and aft? The piece goes onto say that's being done to increase legroom and place more weight toward the front wheel. But I can't visualize how this is to be done. Now if the crank was transverse and it was a parallel twin I have no problem. Someone shed some light please! **C
There's no light to be shed. It's a stupid idea. They're trying to get the cylinders out of the way of the rider's knees. Why have the cylinders there if you do not need them there for air-cooling? It'd be way smarter to move the cylinders into a configuration that makes sense on a water-cooled machine.
I'm thinking mechanicals here, I understand the comfort and perhaps performance benefits. But how does one cant V-twin cylinders forward when they're tied to a crank running fore and aft? I can't envision the design.
The crank centerline would have to be canted along with the cylinders. That means the trans would be canted, too.
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AMF started development on the engine used in the V-Rod in the late 70ies. They also had a liquid cooled 4 cylinder underdevelopment at the same time. We were all quit excited and expected Harley to become competitive on the race track again. Shortly after AMF sold Harley to a "group of investors" who stopped selling motorcycles and started selling Harley Davidson. Like it or not, they knew what they were doing.
Matt
Sort of true. AMF hired Porsche Design to pen a series of modular engines that could use components in common to make a twin-, a four-, and a six-cylinder engine. This was the NOVA project.
The later V-Rod is a different engine.
Not how I remember it. When the AMF folks asked the dealer I was working for at the time to take on the Harley line he talked about a V-twin double head cam and a V-four underdevelopment by Porsche. Both were water cooled. I do not remember anything being said about a 6 cylinder. However, as you say, the V-Rod could very well be a different engine. The next time I see my former BOSS I will ask. All of that aside we were both sorry to see Harley walk away from the track. He sold Harley to the current dealer shortly after the "group of investors" purchased Harley from AMF.
Matt
Matt
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[
The really big question to me is -- Can you convince a traditionalist that a small block is a Cali? Maybe that's the real intent here -- forming an unsuspecting focus group to see if they can sneak that one over on us.
Its not a small block. The scrambler is a small block, the Cali is a big block. Maybe the rumored 1300 cc or bigger engine. Bring it on, I am ready for a replacement for the EV.
Pete
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Well said my friend. It's all right here.
"Why would a company want to transform a marque known for its engine"
Well, no. The marque was known for a huge string of GP victories up until 1957. Then it was known for having incredibly outdated bikes. Then it was known for police bikes. Then the V7 Sport came about.
That bike was the DAMNED FASTEST BIKE that you could buy for arguably, a couple of years. Hailwood called it "the best handling street bike in the world" even though Guzzi, even at that time, couldn't afford to pay him to race their stuff.
Guzzi, at the end of 1972, was known for building amazingly solid tourers and having the DAMNED FASTEST BIKE that you could buy. Now, Guzzi is known for having dealers that range from excellent to "a spot on the floor next to the Kymco bikes". They're known for having a bunch of things that need to be "fixed" before delivery. They're known for great bikes once they're set up right, that run forever. They are certainly not known for having the DAMNED FASTEST BIKE, or even the very best handling bike, anymore. It's competition provide lighter faster bikes for better prices and with higher reliability.
Don't change anything? Just keep it the same and make it more reliable? People on this site still complain about Guzzi going to fuel injection, yet they're on their second generation. Show me a world class bike with points and carbs. Please.
Guzzi is dead if it goes down the same path it has followed for the last four decades. Basta! If "too much horsepower" is the complaint (is that from the same people that complain about the V7 Classics LACK of it?) --- Then guess what. A water-cooled motor will allow for a much smaller, lighter motor producing 100 hp, using lighter materials and with much greater efficiency, if that's what you want. If you want to have the "DFB" you can buy, and make Guzzi what it was at it's height during the V-twin era (arguably '71-74), then you have to face facts.
Saying that Piaggio doesn't care about Guzzi is farcical. Hell, they even left the plant up in Mandello -- I would have turned it into a museum and moved it to Pescara where the engineers, QUALITY CONTROL and most of the components are made. Hell, even Ford shutters it's old plants -- I can see the die-hard Ford guys complaining that any Ford not built on the same line as the original Model T is "just a poseur".
You might hate it, but time just moves forward, technology gets better, even if you don't like it, it just does -- how many of you here were late to the party with the internet, saying "I don't need to be connected, yada yada yada", yet there seems to be a community for everyone, even a bunch of polar opposites that like Guzzis whether they are old or new, carbed or not, spoked wheels, small blocks, and retired cops at donut shops.
It's gonna be different -- if you don't like different and wish everything was like a 1000S or V7 Sport, which I would rather own than many new bikes of any brand, there's good news. You can buy Tonti frames, motors, parts both NOS and custom all over the place and build what you like. If you want to embrace the future, well, it's a comin'!
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dgurovich thanks for sttting the record straight - my sentiments exactly.
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Times have changed since the V7 Sport came along. Now there are tens of bike manufacturers that make amazingly fast, great handling bikes. Do you think Guzzi could make a bike faster and handle better than the Busa? Back in the day there was a lot to be figured out with the archaic engines and engineering of great handling bikes. Guzzi did well to figure that stuff out, but now most everyone has figured it out ten times over. Do people care? Some want the fastest and lightest no doubt, but others don't. You have to look to a niche these days. Somebody answer me this: If it's all about handling, speed, and sophistication (water-cooling, lighter metals, etc.), how is Harley's doing it? Why am I the only one to mention Harley over and over? Is it because it's hard to admit that archaic designs still sell?
-Kevin
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Why am I the only one to mention Harley over and over? Is it because it's hard to admit that archaic designs still sell?
I have an uneasy feeling (and I suspect others share it) that Harley has been riding along on a peculiarly vaporous mixture of image-marketing and Jingoistic "America First" prejudice for an extraordinarily long time. And that the hallucinogenic incense is beginning its inevitable dissipation.
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I've felt this way myself Jon, but if you look at that piece of engineering dump compared to the Guzzi ditch-pump I don't see how their numbers are so much higher. I'm only referring to the engine because according to the folks that's what sells a bike. NOT!!
Guzzi needs some smoke and mirrors like Harley, not an engine.
-Kevin
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[
The really big question to me is -- Can you convince a traditionalist that a small block is a Cali? Maybe that's the real intent here -- forming an unsuspecting focus group to see if they can sneak that one over on us.
Its not a small block. The scrambler is a small block, the Cali is a big block. Maybe the rumored 1300 cc or bigger engine. Bring it on, I am ready for a replacement for the EV.
Pete
That makes me feel better.
Personally I feel the 1100 is big enough for my needs. It handles about like I wished my old V1000 did.
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AMF started development on the engine used in the V-Rod in the late 70ies. They also had a liquid cooled 4 cylinder underdevelopment at the same time. We were all quit excited and expected Harley to become competitive on the race track again. Shortly after AMF sold Harley to a "group of investors" who stopped selling motorcycles and started selling Harley Davidson. Like it or not, they knew what they were doing.
Matt
Sort of true. AMF hired Porsche Design to pen a series of modular engines that could use components in common to make a twin-, a four-, and a six-cylinder engine. This was the NOVA project.
The later V-Rod is a different engine.
Not how I remember it. When the AMF folks asked the dealer I was working for at the time to take on the Harley line he talked about a V-twin double head cam and a V-four underdevelopment by Porsche. Both were water cooled. I do not remember anything being said about a 6 cylinder. However, as you say, the V-Rod could very well be a different engine. The next time I see my former BOSS I will ask. All of that aside we were both sorry to see Harley walk away from the track. He sold Harley to the current dealer shortly after the "group of investors" purchased Harley from AMF.
Matt
Matt
One day when I was in the Harley archives, I got to sit on three of the NOVA prototypes. One of them had the fairing that they later resurrected on the FXRT. That bike's in the H-D museum right now (or at least was when I was there in November). It was Vaughn Beals, the CEO of Harley that spearheaded the buyback of the company, who told me about the two-four-six bit.
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Oh frig. This is a better image. Someone please tell me those aren't forward boards? :(
Wow. That sure is a floorboard, with a heel-and-toe shifter too. That's what looked like a two-into-one pipe in the earlier picture.
All you who have been wanting a modern Eldo just got it!
I could see my wife liking this a lot better than the Griso for two-up trips.
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Harley is doing it for one simple reason 90% of the buying public don't want the fastest, lightest or best handling bike.
Judging from bike sales, at least in the US, most riders want something that is easy to own (I.e. reliable, comfortable, looks and feels good, easy to find accessories etc.
Sure, a percentage want racers, and some want adventure tourers or some other niche, but at the end of the day most riders want to ride and not worry about needing to scrounge a dealer, accessories or parts.
And THAT is Guzzis' greatest challenge if they need/want growth in the US.
They can water cool some of their motors if need be, or introduce a second line of motors with a different architecture but not unless they preserve or create some brand identity. Right now the motor layout IS their identity.
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Oh frig. This is a better image. Someone please tell me those aren't forward boards? :(
All you who have been wanting a modern Eldo just got it!
::) ::) Don't see any resemblance to an Eldo myself.
I'm betting the reason there are cutouts in the "tank" for the cylinder heads is two-fold: larger cylinders/heads with water-cooling and a very wide "tank" with gauges mounted on top.
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I'm with Rocker59 on the California - long and low - I like it... and I think a V7 Scrambler is a great idea.
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Nuovo California: Long and Low. Nice. Twin shocks, but an odd looking left side of the swingarm. I'm wondering if they've got a new casting based on the CARC, but one which has a left side... Twin shocks for the purists! Pipe appears for all the world to be a 2:1 left-side. I'd sure like to see a right side photo. I agree with others. from the looks of it, the fuel may not be in the fuel tank, but lower and partially under the seat, ala Ducati Multistrada, maybe? I like the seat. The bike looks edgy and modern. There is something about the styling that makes me think GL1000 instead of Ambo/Eldo, though, and that sorta bothers me... Overall, I like it. Can't wait to see more!
V7 Scrambler? Yep. Sweet! Brang it!
When we were shown the mockups, we were told that the specific "spiritual" (not stylistic) inspiration for new Cali was the Road King. This differs substantially in look from what we were shown.
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I'll pose the question I always ask when we discuss whatever new liquid-cooled engine has been mentioned in the media: what engine configuration should "Guzzi" adopt that will be as identifiable as their own rather than just another "me too" effort? Just about every configuration has been-there-done-that to death by some other manufacturer. Triple - Triumph. Flat-four - Honda. Flat-six - Honda. Inline-six - BMW now. V-four - Honda. Inline-four - everybody (really worked well the first time Guzzi/Benelli tried!). Flat-twin - BMW. V-Twin (transverse crank) - everybody. Parallel-twin - Triumph, Norton. What's that leave? V6, V8, maybe a wide angle V-twin (120 like the Bicilindrica), radial?
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Great question Amboman, I would really love to here what Greg has to say on this one.
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Guzzi could possibly be resurrected,
You are kidding right?! First Guzzi isn't dead and no resurrection necessary! Second, Guzzi has put out as many and in many cases more truly new products(New engines, frames) not just derivatives than most manufacturers and certainly more than the largest M/C maker, our own HD. What is necessary is supporting Guzzi whenever possible by buying these new products and again whenever possible support those local dealers that are trying. I visit other manufacturers forums and have not seen the kind of negativity toward their brand this board shows on a regular basis.
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Guzzi could possibly be resurrected,
You are kidding right?! First Guzzi isn't dead and no resurrection necessary! Second, Guzzi has put out as many and in many cases more truly new products(New engines, frames) not just derivatives than most manufacturers and certainly more than the largest M/C maker, our own HD. What is necessary is supporting Guzzi whenever possible by buying these new products and again whenever possible support those local dealers that are trying. I visit other manufacturers forums and have not seen the kind of negativity toward their brand this board shows on a regular basis.
Not kidding.
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I'll pose the question I always ask when we discuss whatever new liquid-cooled engine has been mentioned in the media: what engine configuration should "Guzzi" adopt that will be as identifiable as their own rather than just another "me too" effort? Just about every configuration has been-there-done-that to death by some other manufacturer. Triple - Triumph. Flat-four - Honda. Flat-six - Honda. Inline-six - BMW now. V-four - Honda. Inline-four - everybody (really worked well the first time Guzzi/Benelli tried!). Flat-twin - BMW. V-Twin (transverse crank) - everybody. Parallel-twin - Triumph, Norton. What's that leave? V6, V8, maybe a wide angle V-twin (120 like the Bicilindrica), radial?
Perhaps a longitudinally mounted V4. Honda has done it with their ST1100 & ST1300 but they are not known for it. Guzzi could make it their own and then be known for longitudinally mounted V2's and V4's.
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Guzzi could possibly be resurrected,
You are kidding right?! First Guzzi isn't dead and no resurrection necessary! Second, Guzzi has put out as many and in many cases more truly new products(New engines, frames) not just derivatives than most manufacturers and certainly more than the largest M/C maker, our own HD. What is necessary is supporting Guzzi whenever possible by buying these new products and again whenever possible support those local dealers that are trying. I visit other manufacturers forums and have not seen the kind of negativity toward their brand this board shows on a regular basis.
Just for accuracy -- Honda is the largest motorcycle mfgr, followed by Yamaha. Both labels easily outstrip Guzzi in terms of 'truly new' products.
And my opinion: I don't donate to for-profit organizations by choice. That's not the way business works. It is not necessary that I buy whatever crap Guzzi serves up for no other reason than to support them. Me on a tupperware/fly-by-wire/where's-my-key-labeled-TUESDAY bike? That's just stupid. If they want my business, they necessarily need to offer me something I think is useful, and then be responsive to me as an owner. At present they fail at both levels.
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Why am I the only one to mention Harley over and over? Is it because it's hard to admit that archaic designs still sell?
I have an uneasy feeling (and I suspect others share it) that Harley has been riding along on a peculiarly vaporous mixture of image-marketing and Jingoistic "America First" prejudice for an extraordinarily long time. And that the hallucinogenic incense is beginning its inevitable dissipation.
I can report with certainty that HD will be riding the vaporous mixture wave for a long time. I happened to take a break at an HD dealership, (Yes, they do have the cleanest bathroom in town), while their HOG chapter was having a recruiting drive, the brainwashing is on par or greater than the "Third Reich". Other brands are refered to as brand X, and what is talked about is the experience, the comradeship, the accessories and customization. The average age was about 45 and solid middle/working class, with a few 30's & 60's something. It was a bit unreal but then again how many pay large fees to belong to clubs just to belong somewhere.
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Harley is doing it for one simple reason 90% of the buying public don't want the fastest, lightest or best handling bike.
Judging from bike sales, at least in the US, most riders want something that is easy to own (I.e. reliable, comfortable, looks and feels good, easy to find accessories etc.
Sure, a percentage want racers, and some want adventure tourers or some other niche, but at the end of the day most riders want to ride and not worry about needing to scrounge a dealer, accessories or parts.
And THAT is Guzzis' greatest challenge if they need/want growth in the US.
They can water cool some of their motors if need be, or introduce a second line of motors with a different architecture but not unless they preserve or create some brand identity. Right now the motor layout IS their identity.
Amen Kevin! This engine IS their identity. It's the first thing I recognize a Guzzi by. I have yet to hear what others have to say about what configuration they think Guzzi should adopt. I've spilled my guts now... lets hear some specifics on what people want. Greg seems to be the biggest proponent for change and someone that has great insight, so lets hear what he has to say.
-Kevin
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I like the general lines but not sure about those floorboards. They look way too forward for my taste. But then you'll probably be able to bolt on the lower frame rails from any old Tonti and go back to pegs.
Whatever the case, I'm glad to see them doing something with the Cali line. It'll be interesting to see what eventually is offered to the public.
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They look way too forward for my taste.
Seems like the rider's knees would conflict with the covers it that's where the boards are.
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Guzzi has built just about every engine configuration in its past. Piaggio needs to decide what sort of bikes Guzzi should build, and then choose the best engine design for that usage. They need to be rational.
Look at that new Cali. It's a cruiser/light tourer modeled to be an Italian Road King. All the successful bikes in this category have low seat heights that are arrived at by the same means: stretch the chassis and move the controls forward. That's even tougher to do on a Guzzi because the cylinders are in the way if the controls are moved forward. It's not the right engine for the job.
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Guzzi could possibly be resurrected,
You are kidding right?! First Guzzi isn't dead and no resurrection necessary! Second, Guzzi has put out as many and in many cases more truly new products(New engines, frames) not just derivatives than most manufacturers and certainly more than the largest M/C maker, our own HD. What is necessary is supporting Guzzi whenever possible by buying these new products and again whenever possible support those local dealers that are trying. I visit other manufacturers forums and have not seen the kind of negativity toward their brand this board shows on a regular basis.
Just for accuracy -- Honda is the largest motorcycle mfgr, followed by Yamaha. Both labels easily outstrip Guzzi in terms of 'truly new' products.
And my opinion: I don't donate to for-profit organizations by choice. That's not the way business works. It is not necessary that I buy whatever crap Guzzi serves up for no other reason than to support them. Me on a tupperware/fly-by-wire/where's-my-key-labeled-TUESDAY bike? That's just stupid. If they want my business, they necessarily need to offer me something I think is useful, and then be responsive to me as an owner. At present they fail at both levels.
Just for accuracy HD is the largest motorcycle manufacrurer, only when you include scooters do the others become first! Where is the crap that Guzzi is serving up? A lot of crap does get dished out here but not by Guzzi! They failed you at both levels?! Get real, or at least reasonable, did you EVER buy a new Guzzi?! For 2011 all they did IS respond to customers requests with the Norge and the Stelvio improvements. I bet less than 1 percent on this board ever bought a new Guzzi, including myself but then I don't bash and bitch about Guzzi this and Guzzi that. This should be called the anti-Guzzi board. Bad Chad and others who truly appreciate and support Guzzi for other reasons than a low resale value excluded.
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Guzzi could possibly be resurrected,
You are kidding right?! First Guzzi isn't dead and no resurrection necessary! Second, Guzzi has put out as many and in many cases more truly new products(New engines, frames) not just derivatives than most manufacturers and certainly more than the largest M/C maker, our own HD. What is necessary is supporting Guzzi whenever possible by buying these new products and again whenever possible support those local dealers that are trying. I visit other manufacturers forums and have not seen the kind of negativity toward their brand this board shows on a regular basis.
Just for accuracy -- Honda is the largest motorcycle mfgr, followed by Yamaha. Both labels easily outstrip Guzzi in terms of 'truly new' products.
And my opinion: I don't donate to for-profit organizations by choice. That's not the way business works. It is not necessary that I buy whatever crap Guzzi serves up for no other reason than to support them. Me on a tupperware/fly-by-wire/where's-my-key-labeled-TUESDAY bike? That's just stupid. If they want my business, they necessarily need to offer me something I think is useful, and then be responsive to me as an owner. At present they fail at both levels.
Just for accuracy HD is the largest motorcycle manufacrurer, only when you include scooters do the others become first! Where is the crap that Guzzi is serving up? A lot of crap does get dished out here but not by Guzzi! They failed you at both levels?! Get real, or at least reasonable, did you EVER buy a new Guzzi?! For 2011 all they did IS respond to customers requests with the Norge and the Stelvio improvements. I bet less than 1 percent on this board ever bought a new Guzzi, including myself but then I don't bash and bitch about Guzzi this and Guzzi that. This should be called the anti-Guzzi board. Bad Chad and others who truly appreciate and support Guzzi for other reasons than a low resale value excluded.
4/10 on that rant.
So you and Chad are the anti-anti-Guzzi board members? ;D
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Guzzi could possibly be resurrected,
You are kidding right?! First Guzzi isn't dead and no resurrection necessary! Second, Guzzi has put out as many and in many cases more truly new products(New engines, frames) not just derivatives than most manufacturers and certainly more than the largest M/C maker, our own HD. What is necessary is supporting Guzzi whenever possible by buying these new products and again whenever possible support those local dealers that are trying. I visit other manufacturers forums and have not seen the kind of negativity toward their brand this board shows on a regular basis.
Just for accuracy -- Honda is the largest motorcycle mfgr, followed by Yamaha. Both labels easily outstrip Guzzi in terms of 'truly new' products.
And my opinion: I don't donate to for-profit organizations by choice. That's not the way business works. It is not necessary that I buy whatever crap Guzzi serves up for no other reason than to support them. Me on a tupperware/fly-by-wire/where's-my-key-labeled-TUESDAY bike? That's just stupid. If they want my business, they necessarily need to offer me something I think is useful, and then be responsive to me as an owner. At present they fail at both levels.
Just for accuracy HD is the largest motorcycle manufacrurer, only when you include scooters do the others become first! Where is the crap that Guzzi is serving up? A lot of crap does get dished out here but not by Guzzi! They failed you at both levels?! Get real, or at least reasonable, did you EVER buy a new Guzzi?! For 2011 all they did IS respond to customers requests with the Norge and the Stelvio improvements. I bet less than 1 percent on this board ever bought a new Guzzi, including myself but then I don't bash and bitch about Guzzi this and Guzzi that. This should be called the anti-Guzzi board. Bad Chad and others who truly appreciate and support Guzzi for other reasons than a low resale value excluded.
4/10 on that rant.
So you and Chad are the anti-anti-Guzzi board members? ;D
First, good to hear from you, what are you up to, I hope it has to do with Italian motorcycles? Unfortunately its not just a rant but factual rant against anti-Guzzi Guzzisti rant, got that. ;D
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Harley is not the largest motorcycle manufacturer. It's Honda. In the US, HD has the largest market share but they are not the largest worldwide manufacturer.
Guzzi is a brand owned by Piaggio. It is not a viable independant company. It's now just a brand. Everyone bitches about Piaggio but they've left Mandello open and there is no financial argument to do so. It is purely to appease the Guzzi faithful.
They've stated their plan over and over but some folks just refuse to listen. Guzzi is going to be their touring arm. There will be some overlap with Aprilia models but there is a direction that's been articulated for the brand. You have to have a product to sell before you open up a store to sell stuff. A new Cali, the Norge GT, the revised Stelvio and whatever the hell the Scrambler/V7 Classic thing is represents a Cruiser/Tourer, a Sport Tourer, an Adventure Tourer and a "run about". Seems like a solid line up for a company that currently sells 3,000 bikes a year. Once they're all available, dealers can be brought on board. Or existing dealers can sell with greater confidence.
There are too many Chicken Little Luddites running around screaming the sky is falling and that they'll never buy a liquid cooled Guzzi. A lot of those guys don't own a Guzzi made after 1985. ::)
All I really know is that I like my Guzzi and if it had a radiator it wouldn't make me like it less.
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Harley is not the largest motorcycle manufacturer. It's Honda. In the US, HD has the largest market share but they are not the largest worldwide manufacturer.
Guzzi is a brand owned by Piaggio. It is not a viable independant company. It's now just a brand. Everyone bitches about Piaggio but they've left Mandello open and there is no financial argument to do so. It is purely to appease the Guzzi faithful.
They've stated their plan over and over but some folks just refuse to listen. Guzzi is going to be their touring arm. There will be some overlap with Aprilia models but there is a direction that's been articulated for the brand. You have to have a product to sell before you open up a store to sell stuff. A new Cali, the Norge GT, the revised Stelvio and whatever the hell the Scrambler/V7 Classic thing is represents a Cruiser/Tourer, a Sport Tourer, an Adventure Tourer and a "run about". Seems like a solid line up for a company that currently sells 3,000 bikes a year. Once they're all available, dealers can be brought on board. Or existing dealers can sell with greater confidence.
There are too many Chicken Little Luddites running around screaming the sky is falling and that they'll never buy a liquid cooled Guzzi. A lot of those guys don't own a Guzzi made after 1985. ::)
All I really know is that I like my Guzzi and if it had a radiator it wouldn't make me like it less.
I think appeasing Guzzi was a minor factor in keeping Mandello open.
I own an '04 Guzzi and an '09 Guzzi. I've more or less stopped caring about Guzzi because Guzzi no longer exists. Still, I would have Piaggio be rational in treating it's brand. It is not rational to water-cool the transverse-V engine. It is rational to dump the "traditional" Guzzi V for a less-disadvantageous architecture when designing a water-cooled motor. A rational observer would be forced to point out that those criticizing this observation are the real Luddites in this discussion.
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BMW's best seller is now the S1000RR.
Nope. Sales of the BMW crotch rocket are far from the top of their line. The GS holds that title by a wide margin. The S1000 gets a lot of press play because of it's power etc but sales have not been huge at all.
"BMW S1000RR Outsells the R1200GS in the US for 2010"
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/bmw-s1000rr-out-sells-r1200gs/
I believe that worldwide figures differ, but the point is made.
When I ran my cursor over the pic of the lovely lady on the S1000RR, up popped the name "Leslie Porterfield." She can put a bike down the road (or the salt).
http://www.leslieporterfield.com/bio/leslie.php
Bob
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strange double-tap.
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I am with you bro! no disrespect to those on the opposing/loosing side!
Guzzi could possibly be resurrected,
You are kidding right?! First Guzzi isn't dead and no resurrection necessary! Second, Guzzi has put out as many and in many cases more truly new products(New engines, frames) not just derivatives than most manufacturers and certainly more than the largest M/C maker, our own HD. What is necessary is supporting Guzzi whenever possible by buying these new products and again whenever possible support those local dealers that are trying. I visit other manufacturers forums and have not seen the kind of negativity toward their brand this board shows on a regular basis.
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Guzzi could possibly be resurrected,
You are kidding right?! First Guzzi isn't dead and no resurrection necessary! Second, Guzzi has put out as many and in many cases more truly new products(New engines, frames) not just derivatives than most manufacturers and certainly more than the largest M/C maker, our own HD. What is necessary is supporting Guzzi whenever possible by buying these new products and again whenever possible support those local dealers that are trying. I visit other manufacturers forums and have not seen the kind of negativity toward their brand this board shows on a regular basis.
Just for accuracy -- Honda is the largest motorcycle mfgr, followed by Yamaha. Both labels easily outstrip Guzzi in terms of 'truly new' products.
And my opinion: I don't donate to for-profit organizations by choice. That's not the way business works. It is not necessary that I buy whatever crap Guzzi serves up for no other reason than to support them. Me on a tupperware/fly-by-wire/where's-my-key-labeled-TUESDAY bike? That's just stupid. If they want my business, they necessarily need to offer me something I think is useful, and then be responsive to me as an owner. At present they fail at both levels.
Just for accuracy HD is the largest motorcycle manufacrurer, only when you include scooters do the others become first! Where is the crap that Guzzi is serving up? A lot of crap does get dished out here but not by Guzzi! They failed you at both levels?! Get real, or at least reasonable, did you EVER buy a new Guzzi?! For 2011 all they did IS respond to customers requests with the Norge and the Stelvio improvements. I bet less than 1 percent on this board ever bought a new Guzzi, including myself but then I don't bash and bitch about Guzzi this and Guzzi that. This should be called the anti-Guzzi board. Bad Chad and others who truly appreciate and support Guzzi for other reasons than a low resale value excluded.
Guzzi could possibly be resurrected,
You are kidding right?! First Guzzi isn't dead and no resurrection necessary! Second, Guzzi has put out as many and in many cases more truly new products(New engines, frames) not just derivatives than most manufacturers and certainly more than the largest M/C maker, our own HD. What is necessary is supporting Guzzi whenever possible by buying these new products and again whenever possible support those local dealers that are trying. I visit other manufacturers forums and have not seen the kind of negativity toward their brand this board shows on a regular basis.
Just for accuracy -- Honda is the largest motorcycle mfgr, followed by Yamaha. Both labels easily outstrip Guzzi in terms of 'truly new' products.
And my opinion: I don't donate to for-profit organizations by choice. That's not the way business works. It is not necessary that I buy whatever crap Guzzi serves up for no other reason than to support them. Me on a tupperware/fly-by-wire/where's-my-key-labeled-TUESDAY bike? That's just stupid. If they want my business, they necessarily need to offer me something I think is useful, and then be responsive to me as an owner. At present they fail at both levels.
Just for accuracy HD is the largest motorcycle manufacrurer, only when you include scooters do the others become first! Where is the crap that Guzzi is serving up? A lot of crap does get dished out here but not by Guzzi! They failed you at both levels?! Get real, or at least reasonable, did you EVER buy a new Guzzi?! For 2011 all they did IS respond to customers requests with the Norge and the Stelvio improvements. I bet less than 1 percent on this board ever bought a new Guzzi, including myself but then I don't bash and bitch about Guzzi this and Guzzi that. This should be called the anti-Guzzi board. Bad Chad and others who truly appreciate and support Guzzi for other reasons than a low resale value excluded.
This is a silly one to argue, since it's an objective fact. But don't take my word for it -- do a quick google search for word's largest motorcyle manufacturer and you'll get dozens of hits that disagree with you. Here are a few:
Answers.com - Who is the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the worldMotorcycle Safety question: Who is the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world? Answer: Honda is the current Number One Manufacturer of motorcycles.ya ...
wiki.answers.com › ... › Motorcycles › Motorcycle Safety - Cached - Similar
Honda From Ashes to World's Largest Manufacturer of Motorcycles Sep 6, 2010 ... The founder of Honda, Soichiro Honda primary interest was in cars. Starting out as a self-taught engineer one of his first designs was a ...
ezinearticles.com › Automotive › Motorcycles - Cached
2010 Honda Gold Wing – The first-class long-distance touring ...Apr 1, 2010 ... Honda Gold Wing 2010 Front View. The Goldwing is an iconic touring bike from Honda motorcycle, the world's largest motorcycle manufacturer. ...www.autogaul.com/.../2010-honda-gold-wing-the-first-class-long-distance- touring-motorcycle/ - Cached
These are just a few that have the statement right in the search return, but feel free to read the articles to be sure.
The rest of it is my opinion, and you've not really responded to the heart of it, which is that what you propose is a charitable donation or a bailout model to keep a for-profit business in operation. What I propose is free enterprise. You think we need to give Guzzi money to support them, not because they have anything that I want, but because they're Moto Guzzi. In my opinion that's unreasonable. I run a business. I work constantly to ensure that I am solving people's problems, at a reasonable price, and to assure them that I will be here to support my work. I would not expect folks to just drop by the shop and hand me money to keep my doors open, and I would not expect return customers if I didn't meet their expectations the first time around. As it is, I don't advertise, and I have more work lined up than I want to do.
Businesses fail every day because they don't produce what the buying public wants, or because they have poor customer relations. Guzzi suffers from both maladies, and unfortunately, they're terminal. That's the natural order of things. If you really feel I'm wrong about this, then how about you send me a few $thou to prove your principles? I promise that I don't have anything here you want, and that I won't bother you with anything in return . . . .
I think that if a business -- any business -- wants my custom, they need to offer me something I need, and be responsive to me after I buy it. It's a fact that Guzzi does not currently offer anything that interests me. They haven't since the demise of the Convert. It's a fact that I own a Guzzi that had recall issues and that Guzzi continues to be nonresponsive to those issues. It follows that until we come to an agreement that satisfies me on the recall thing, and until they offer a new model Convert, they'll not be getting any new bike sales from me. This isn't bashing and bitching. This is just the way it is.
The bottom line is that some folks have emotional responses to economic questions, and some apply the math. I think the responsible fiscal response is the latter. If Guzzi's math doesn't add up, they need to either do a change-up or step aside. I don't really much care which they do, but they can't do neither.
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I am with you bro! no disrespect to those on the opposing/loosing side!
Guzzi could possibly be resurrected,
You are kidding right?! First Guzzi isn't dead and no resurrection necessary! Second, Guzzi has put out as many and in many cases more truly new products(New engines, frames) not just derivatives than most manufacturers and certainly more than the largest M/C maker, our own HD. What is necessary is supporting Guzzi whenever possible by buying these new products and again whenever possible support those local dealers that are trying. I visit other manufacturers forums and have not seen the kind of negativity toward their brand this board shows on a regular basis.
I think Paolo Timoni should reward you both with a new Griso 1200. Keep your ear sharp to make sure Nero stays in tune . . .
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I own an '04 Guzzi and an '09 Guzzi. I've more or less stopped caring about Guzzi because Guzzi no longer exists. Still, I would have Piaggio be rational in treating it's brand. It is not rational to water-cool the transverse-V engine. It is rational to dump the "traditional" Guzzi V for a less-disadvantageous architecture when designing a water-cooled motor. A rational observer would be forced to point out that those criticizing this observation are the real Luddites in this discussion.
I think this explains a lot Greg.
Thank you.
-Kevin
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Harley is not the largest motorcycle manufacturer. It's Honda. In the US, HD has the largest market share but they are not the largest worldwide manufacturer.
Guzzi is a brand owned by Piaggio. It is not a viable independant company. It's now just a brand. Everyone bitches about Piaggio but they've left Mandello open and there is no financial argument to do so. It is purely to appease the Guzzi faithful.
They've stated their plan over and over but some folks just refuse to listen. Guzzi is going to be their touring arm. There will be some overlap with Aprilia models but there is a direction that's been articulated for the brand. You have to have a product to sell before you open up a store to sell stuff. A new Cali, the Norge GT, the revised Stelvio and whatever the hell the Scrambler/V7 Classic thing is represents a Cruiser/Tourer, a Sport Tourer, an Adventure Tourer and a "run about". Seems like a solid line up for a company that currently sells 3,000 bikes a year. Once they're all available, dealers can be brought on board. Or existing dealers can sell with greater confidence.
There are too many Chicken Little Luddites running around screaming the sky is falling and that they'll never buy a liquid cooled Guzzi. A lot of those guys don't own a Guzzi made after 1985. ::)
All I really know is that I like my Guzzi and if it had a radiator it wouldn't make me like it less.
I think appeasing Guzzi was a minor factor in keeping Mandello open.
I own an '04 Guzzi and an '09 Guzzi. I've more or less stopped caring about Guzzi because Guzzi no longer exists. Still, I would have Piaggio be rational in treating it's brand. It is not rational to water-cool the transverse-V engine. It is rational to dump the "traditional" Guzzi V for a less-disadvantageous architecture when designing a water-cooled motor. A rational observer would be forced to point out that those criticizing this observation are the real Luddites in this discussion.
Greg, you know more about motorcycles than anyone else I can think of. You are an expert about motorcycles. If you gave me advice about my Moto Guzzi, I would take your advice without a second thought because I am confident you would be right.
John Bloor knows f*ck-all about motorcycles. He is a business man. He runs arguably the best, fastest growing motorcycle company in the world. If he gave me advice about running a business, I would take it.
Piaggio measures their annual revenue in billions. I realize that you don't think much of them but SOMEONE there knows what they're doing and they are business people. They know at least as much about motorcycles as John Bloor. Someone there cares at least a little about Guzzi. I know Piaggio got a giant kickback for keeping Mandello open but heritage also played a part. Is the Triumph factory in Meriden still open?
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Greg, you know more about motorcycles than anyone else I can think of. You are an expert about motorcycles. If you gave me advice about my Moto Guzzi, I would take your advice without a second thought because I am confident you would be right.
John Bloor knows f*ck-all about motorcycles. He is a business man. He runs arguably the best, fastest growing motorcycle company in the world. If he gave me advice about running a business, I would take it.
Piaggio measures their annual revenue in billions. I realize that you don't think much of them but SOMEONE there knows what they're doing and they are business people. They know at least as much about motorcycles as John Bloor. Someone there cares at least a little about Guzzi. I know Piaggio got a giant kickback for keeping Mandello open but heritage also played a part. Is the Triumph factory in Meriden still open?
Meriden is closed. Mandello's just a shell. It is not a factory. Bloor has done well. What he builds are Triumphs in name only. That does not diminish them as motorcycles. They are just fine as disposable Brit imitations of UJMs. They, at least, are rationally designed and show some original thought. I salute "Triumph."
Unfortunately, what Guzzi has become, even if a few folks are retained to do "assembly" in Mandello, is a sham that does final assembly on irrational motorcycles. There is no design in Mandello. The soul is gone. That is simple fact.
Piaggio loses buttloads of money, in the conventional sense, on Guzzi and Aprilia. Only the government subsidies make either remotely rational, and subsidies de facto remove all rationality.
If you choose to be all "ra-ra" about that, it's your choice. I am almost to the point that I cannot summon up the least care about this silly drama any longer. Guzzi is dead.
YMMV and all that.
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I visit other manufacturers forums and have not seen the kind of negativity toward their brand this board shows on a regular basis.
I've noticed the same thing.
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I visit other manufacturers forums and have not seen the kind of negativity toward their brand this board shows on a regular basis.
I've noticed the same thing.
[/quote
That's because other forums are daily monitored for negativity. Here MG negativity is allowed. A LOT of participants here are new to Guzzis or don't have the commitment to the brand some others do.
I really don't understand what Luap is shooting for here. It appears to be volume/quantity, nothing else. :-\
I don't say this against Greg Field. He is a valued participant on Moto Guzzis, much more than most others, but at the same time he isn't totally enamored solely to Guzzis. I respect that. :)
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I did not buy my Breva because it was air cooled.
I did not buy my Breva because it had a transverse 90-degree twin cylinder layout.
I did not buy my Breva because of the history of Moto Guzzi.
I did not buy my Breva because of the plant at Mandello.
I did not buy my Breva because it was fast.
I did not buy my Breva because of its sound--I never heard the engine until after I bought it.
I did not buy my Breva because it was technologically sophisticated.
I did not buy my Breva because it was easy to repair.
I did not buy my Breva because it handled so well in the twisties.
I did not buy my Breva because of the extensive dealer network.
I did not buy my Breva because parts were so easy to find.
I did not buy my Breva because of its reputation on the street.
I did not buy my Breva because it was priced competitively with the other 750's available.
I bought it because I thought it was the most stunningly beautiful bike I had ever seen.
I walked into the showroom, intending to look for a new helmet, and there, in a line with a bunch of BMWs and Royal Enfields, was this incredibly gorgeous bike. I fought the urge to buy it at once. I went home and looked it up on the Internet. I found out that Guzzis can last for hundreds of thousands of miles--so if I bought it, and took care of it, it would last me the rest of my life. And the next day I bought it.
I still think it is the most beautiful bike I have ever seen, with the possible exception of the Norge. I would like to have a Norge, if I could keep the Breva as well. I would sell the Bumblebee, but not the Breva. And to tell the truth, even to get a Norge, I would not give up the Breva.
Piaggio, build beautiful bikes and put Moto Guzzi labels on them.
It isn't the technology. Or the speed. Or the historic factory. It is the unique beauty of the bikes.
The MV Agusta that costs $120,000 looks to me at first glance like a Honda. My Breva doesn't look like a Honda, or a Harley, or an MV Agusta, or anything but what it is: a uniquely beautiful motorcycle.
I don't care what engine you put in it, or what cooling system it uses, or how much plastic bodywork it has, or anything else. If you build beautiful bikes, people will buy them--not quirky bikes, or retro bikes, or up-to-the-minute stylish bikes that look outdated in 5 years, but beautiful bikes.
Build beautiful bikes.
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Greg, you know more about motorcycles than anyone else I can think of. You are an expert about motorcycles. If you gave me advice about my Moto Guzzi, I would take your advice without a second thought because I am confident you would be right.
John Bloor knows f*ck-all about motorcycles. He is a business man. He runs arguably the best, fastest growing motorcycle company in the world. If he gave me advice about running a business, I would take it.
Piaggio measures their annual revenue in billions. I realize that you don't think much of them but SOMEONE there knows what they're doing and they are business people. They know at least as much about motorcycles as John Bloor. Someone there cares at least a little about Guzzi. I know Piaggio got a giant kickback for keeping Mandello open but heritage also played a part. Is the Triumph factory in Meriden still open?
Meriden is closed. Mandello's just a shell. It is not a factory. Bloor has done well. What he builds are Triumphs in name only. That does not diminish them as motorcycles. They are just fine as disposable Brit imitations of UJMs. They, at least, are rationally designed and show some original thought. I salute "Triumph."
Unfortunately, what Guzzi has become, even if a few folks are retained to do "assembly" in Mandello, is a sham that does final assembly on irrational motorcycles. There is no design in Mandello. The soul is gone. That is simple fact.
Piaggio loses buttloads of money, in the conventional sense, on Guzzi and Aprilia. Only the government subsidies make either remotely rational, and subsidies de facto remove all rationality.
If you choose to be all "ra-ra" about that, it's your choice. I am almost to the point that I cannot summon up the least care about this silly drama any longer. Guzzi is dead.
YMMV and all that.
I'm sorry to hear this from you cause its irrational thinking. A brand is not attached to a building, a name or even a location, but rather the ideal of their mission. While Ducati and Aprilia are writing their history as we speak on the race tracks of the world and have well established missions that their customers can relate to, so does Guzzi have a mission that a few, according to sales numbers appreciate. Their mission as I understand it, is to build well balanced motorcycles that will do everything well and have esthetically a balance between function and form with the simplicity of traditional technology such as air/oil cooled engines, shaft drive and easy to work on. Now imagine for a moment that HD sold the Norge and the Griso, what would the sales figures be like, I wonder about things like that because HD and Guzzi share so many ideals. I also wonder sometimes "what if" the Italians as whole cared about logistics and efficiency as much as they do about designing and winning, where would Guzzi be. Not dead by a long shot, even after the Guzzi name will no longer be around someone will pick up their mission, cause its a good one. But I am sorry to hear your lost interest in Guzzi's.
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I'm not emotionally invested in Triumph, but what a load of crap ... Triumph in name only? A sham? Whatever..
As for irrationality, wake up cause at least in the US motorcycles ARE irrationality, beautiful, wonderful irrationality.
I truly love my Guzzis and hope I have the option to buy more new ones, but if they stop making what I want, I'll move on.
The personification of a company or motorcycle is nice from a feel good standpoint, but when doing so it's about how that one individual feels about the current product.
Obviously some here don't care for it, others love it.
Put me in the love it and bought 2 in the past decade and willing to buy more new category.
But I prefer air cooled, easy maintenance, well balanced (in various senses of the word) and generally unique machines.
If I can't get all those things, then I'll look elsewhere and maybe give up the last category for a convenient dealer network.
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Greg, you know more about motorcycles than anyone else I can think of. You are an expert about motorcycles. If you gave me advice about my Moto Guzzi, I would take your advice without a second thought because I am confident you would be right.
John Bloor knows f*ck-all about motorcycles. He is a business man. He runs arguably the best, fastest growing motorcycle company in the world. If he gave me advice about running a business, I would take it.
Piaggio measures their annual revenue in billions. I realize that you don't think much of them but SOMEONE there knows what they're doing and they are business people. They know at least as much about motorcycles as John Bloor. Someone there cares at least a little about Guzzi. I know Piaggio got a giant kickback for keeping Mandello open but heritage also played a part. Is the Triumph factory in Meriden still open?
Meriden is closed. Mandello's just a shell. It is not a factory. Bloor has done well. What he builds are Triumphs in name only. That does not diminish them as motorcycles. They are just fine as disposable Brit imitations of UJMs. They, at least, are rationally designed and show some original thought. I salute "Triumph."
Unfortunately, what Guzzi has become, even if a few folks are retained to do "assembly" in Mandello, is a sham that does final assembly on irrational motorcycles. There is no design in Mandello. The soul is gone. That is simple fact.
Piaggio loses buttloads of money, in the conventional sense, on Guzzi and Aprilia. Only the government subsidies make either remotely rational, and subsidies de facto remove all rationality.
If you choose to be all "ra-ra" about that, it's your choice. I am almost to the point that I cannot summon up the least care about this silly drama any longer. Guzzi is dead.
YMMV and all that.
Are you drinking and posting? Since when does the word "rational" and Italian motorcycle belong in the same sentence? I'm not a Piaggio apologist but if they make it possible for me to indulge my love of weird Italian bikes I am thankful for it. I am not all "ra-ra" but I don't have a personal agenda either. I can stand back unemotionally and see that they are improving the product. They are listening to customer feedback and revising current models. They have a plan. Whether the plan is ultimately successful remains to be seen but it's better than no plan at all.
The "old" Guzzi IS dead. They made brand new, antique motorcycles and arrogantly assumed the world would buy an inferior product. The old Guzzi deserved to die. All the chest thumping about Mandello and Tonti and near religious fervor exhibited by some folks is just....ridiculous. That a failed business model and an inferior product inspire such fervor is what is truly "irrational".
Guzzi has been irrelevant since 1975.
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Irrelevant since 1975? Maybe 79. But 75, I don't think so. ;D
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"A lot of those guys don't own a Guzzi made after 1985."
1979, '74, whatever. 30+ years ago. Besides that Marusho did travers V-Twin 3-4 years before Guzzi.
You want to see acompany that really is identified by it's motor? Try Parilla (hi-cam) -- They now make go-kart engines.
I love my 1960 Parilla for what it is. A small, quick, light bike. Would I like to see a new one? I just don't care.
For all the people on this board that love the air-cooled V-Twin that Guzzi makes now and has made over the last 40+ years, there are plenty of bikes available for you. It's obvious by the particular side representing the "don't change anything or I'll hate you even more" faction, there are plenty of bikes out there for you to buy, build, customize and service under your particular shade tree.
You actually don't really care if Guzzi comes out with a new motor or not, because you don't want a new motorcycle of any brand anyway. Would you seriously purchase a brand-spanking new V7 Sport or 1000S for $16+K? No, you'd complain that it now has fuel injection, catalysts, electronics and not enough power. But you'd sure as hell get the old one for less money, and Guzzi couldn't make what you want for the $8K that you think you should pay. You just don't care about new Guzzis -- ask yourself if you're just not really pissed off that everything that you like and know about motorcycles is just changing so rapidly that the old stuff is more fun?
I think that -- that's why I ride the Parilla and think it's just about the most fun I can have on two wheels.
Still, I support Guzzi because I want to. My V7 Classic is a great bike! It is about as maintenance and worry free as anything I've ever owned on two or four wheels.
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I'm not emotionally invested in Triumph, but what a load of crap ... Triumph in name only? A sham? Whatever..
Neither the company nor the motorcycles of today has any direct connection to those of the past. The new Triumphs are in that way like all the many newer machines dubbed "Indians." It's just the truth. I never said Triumph was a sham.
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Are you drinking and posting? Since when does the word "rational" and Italian motorcycle belong in the same sentence? I'm not a Piaggio apologist but if they make it possible for me to indulge my love of weird Italian bikes I am thankful for it. I am not all "ra-ra" but I don't have a personal agenda either. I can stand back unemotionally and see that they are improving the product. They are listening to customer feedback and revising current models. They have a plan. Whether the plan is ultimately successful remains to be seen but it's better than no plan at all.
The "old" Guzzi IS dead. They made brand new, antique motorcycles and arrogantly assumed the world would buy an inferior product. The old Guzzi deserved to die. All the chest thumping about Mandello and Tonti and near religious fervor exhibited by some folks is just....ridiculous. That a failed business model and an inferior product inspire such fervor is what is truly "irrational".
Guzzi has been irrelevant since 1975.
The latest Ducatis are all rationally designed motorcycles. It's why they are successful. And even though the yare rationally designed, they're still Italian. How can that be? Guzzis were once rationally designed. Guzzi was once successful. I wonder if there might be a link there?
The old Guzzi deserved new owners who would carry on the spirit of the company. Piaggio isn't that. Under Piaggio, Guzzi loses money, and yet you all consider that a successful business model?
I find it really odd that anyone would want a motorcycle board that consists solely of empty-headed cheerleading. If that's what you all want, fine. I'll join Roper in avoiding this place, so y'all can cheer all the louder.
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I'm not emotionally invested in Triumph, but what a load of crap ... Triumph in name only? A sham? Whatever..
Neither the company nor the motorcycles of today has any direct connection to those of the past. The new Triumphs are in that way like all the many newer machines dubbed "Indians." It's just the truth. I never said Triumph was a sham.
Triumph has the MOST important possible connection to the original company (other than the legal right to use the name). Triumph is building bikes in both the spirit and form of the original, while also striking out in new directions. Works for me.
My mentioning the term sham was that seemed to be making a similar argument against Guzzi regarding assembly at Mandello calling it a sham.
Sorry man, I got a lot of love for your knowledge and passion but I think you couldn't be more off-base on this topic, specifcally on why any of us should give a shit.
Soul, jezus you guys are sounding more and more like Harley riders.
Now that said, I DO think there is a somewhat intangible quality to a Guzzi that I also find in a Harley, but it's a sum of the parts, the form and the function, the way it just plain accomplishes the things I want it to in a simple, beautiful and balanced way. And I see a certain amount of commonality in these qualities across the brand's products.
So if "Soul" is the perception of some sort of brand identity which is seen/felt through the products, well, then OK, Guzzi has one, and frankly if so, I think it's tied to the current motor configuration, though I do accept that it COULD (like BMW) be built around a second configuration in the future. I just don't think one could change it 180 degrees on a dime and expect there not to be backlash and a possible complete loss of the current identity.
I don't see the same thing in most Japanese brands, possibly because the build too many flavors, they are too much like McDonald's trying to be everything to everyone, instead of just doing a few versions of one thing really well.
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I'm not emotionally invested in Triumph, but what a load of crap ... Triumph in name only? A sham? Whatever..
Neither the company nor the motorcycles of today has any direct connection to those of the past. The new Triumphs are in that way like all the many newer machines dubbed "Indians." It's just the truth. I never said Triumph was a sham.
Triumph has the MOST important possible connection to the original company (other than the legal right to use the name). Triumph is building bikes in both the spirit and form of the original, while also striking out in new directions. Works for me.
My mentioning the term sham was that seemed to be making a similar argument against Guzzi regarding assembly at Mandello calling it a sham.
Sorry man, I got a lot of love for your knowledge and passion but I think you couldn't be more off-base on this topic, specifcally on why any of us should give a shit.
Soul, jezus you guys are sounding more and more like Harley riders.
Now that said, I DO think there is a somewhat intangible quality to a Guzzi that I also find in a Harley, but it's a sum of the parts, the form and the function, the way it just plain accomplishes the things I want it to in a simple, beautiful and balanced way. And I see a certain amount of commonality in these qualities across the brand's products.
So if "Soul" is the perception of some sort of brand identity which is seen/felt through the products, well, then OK, Guzzi has one, and frankly if so, I think it's tied to the current motor configuration, though I do accept that it COULD (like BMW) be built around a second configuration in the future. I just don't think one could change it 180 degrees on a dime and expect there not to be backlash and a possible complete loss of the current identity.
I don't see the same thing in most Japanese brands, possibly because the build too many flavors, they are too much like McDonald's trying to be everything to everyone, instead of just doing a few versions of one thing really well.
There're way more similarities than differences between Guzzis and Harleys. Both do have soul. Some see it. Some kinda sense it but are sheepish about acknowledging it. Some never will see it. So be it.
Except among us weirdos here, and to very few outsiders, Guzzi has no positive identity.
Guzzi has plenty of negative identity, though, and I saw it every day working in a shop that sold Guzzis. Guzzis're quirky antiques for old duffers. That's what they say about even the Sport 1200 and 1200 Griso.
If Piaggio wants to see Guzzi continue to slouch off into obscurity, they'll stick with the transverse-V motor when they water-cool it. If they want success, they'll look to more suitable engine architectures.
If Guzzi is not a building or a place, then Guzzi is also not a transverse-V engine. It is said that the old factory holds Guzzi back, and that there's nothing about Mandello that imbues itself into the motorcycles to make them special. I say both of those are false, but clearly I am in the minority on that. But if you really believe those things, how can you believe that the transverse-V engine doesn't also hold Guzzi back? If you polled average riders, you would find that you are in the minority about the transverse-V engine. Most riders think that it's a retarded design in the water-cooled age. They are right in that assessment and will vote with their dollars.
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"I find it really odd that anyone would want a motorcycle board that consists solely of empty-headed cheerleading. If that's what you all want, fine. I'll join Roper in avoiding this place, so y'all can cheer all the louder." Greg F
I knew it was just a matter of time before the heat got to hot in the kitchen!
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Don't worry, Greg. I think most of us recognized that this discussion went through the looking glass back when the irrational arguments offered facts and figures and the rational one was based in 'ideals', 'imagines', and 'what-if's'. The planes of reality are too disparate for reasoning.
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There're way more similarities than differences between Guzzis and Harleys. Both do have soul. Some see it. Some kinda sense it but are sheepish about acknowledging it. Some never will see it. So be it.
Actually, I've always preached the similarities.
And IF they are more similar than dis-similar, than Guzzis lack of success (at least in the US) has NOTHING to do with your perceived limitations of the motor configuration, it has EVERYTHING to do with Brand Image/Marketing and Dealership Network (actual reliability of new models being part of both categories).
Except among us weirdos here, and to very few outsiders, Guzzi has no positive identity.
I think that is absolutely not true.
Hell even half the guys at the Harley shops know what a Guzzi is FROM THAT ENGINE DESIGN.
Pretty much any rider who reads one or more motorcycle magazine knows VISUALLY what a Guzzi is from that engine design.
If Guzzi is not a building or a place, then Guzzi is also not a transverse-V engine. It is said that the old factory holds Guzzi back, and that there's nothing about Mandello that imbues itself into the motorcycles to make them special. I say both of those are false, but clearly I am in the minority on that. But if you really believe those things, how can you believe that the transverse-V engine doesn't also hold Guzzi back? If you polled average riders, you would find that you are in the minority about the transverse-V engine. Most riders think that it's a retarded design in the water-cooled age. They are right in that assessment and will vote with their dollars.
Logically you've not supported your position on the motor and brand identity.
Probably 90-99% of the people who buy a Guzzi (or most motorcycles) never see the factory or particularly care about it.
But 100% of them and their riding buddies SEE the bike, and on Guzzis for decades the SINGLE MOST DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC is their unique to the market engine layout. That IS the brand identity.
We, as owners, know there is more to it, the eclectic abilities and balance of the bikes, but that VAST majority of the riding public do not have any idea about those things. They just know it's the bike with the cylinders sticking up on each side.
My experience (from the past 2 decades as both a rider AND in technical publishing for the motor vehicle industries) is that THE VAST MAJORITY OF CONSUMERS (MOTORYCLISTS INCLUDED) DO NOT KNOW JACK DICK ABOUT THE ENGINEERING OF THEIR BIKES. And as proud as we are to be "self-sufficient Guzzisitas" just read half the technical questions on this forum or any other forum to know that's true.
Most do not know what limitation a longitudinal crankshaft/transverse V-cylinder architecture place on a motorcycle, so they don't know or care if it is logical to water cool such a layout.
They only care about finding a bike that DOES WHAT THEY WANT and LOOKS LIKE THEY WANT.
After those things they look at
1. Price
2. Convenience (ease of finding dealers and accessories)
3. Moto journalist reports
4. Race results.
5. Specific engineering requirements
There may be a minority who put things like 4 or 5 first, but they are a very small minority.
Actually I put 5 FIRST, but I'm weird like that because I have VERY VERY VERY specific requirements for a vehicle (bike or car or truck or boat). I've never bought a new car that wasn't either special ordered from the factory OR customized significantly (as in to the tune of an additional 10-20% or more of the vehicle price) before delivery. But I KNOW I'm in the minority.
I suggest that you happen to be in the minority too.
Therefore you and I can't impose our own preferences on Guzzi, we have to put ourselves in the shoes of the average consumer.
Talk about voting with their dollars, Harley remains the absolute king of street bike sales in the US and the vast majority of those sales are their air-cooled models.
Again, I'll repeat, I'm not against Guzzi branching out into a water-cooled bike, even possibly one of a different engine design (i.e. not longitudinal crank/transverse V), but ONLY if they don't at the same time abandon their air-cooled version. If they changed all of their bikes to water-cooling AND abandonded that too, they would have a VERY VERY long road to a new brand identity. They would be no more than another Aprilia or Augusta, with sales EVEN LOWER than they are now.
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WOW!! I read the first few post and walked away. I came back and decided to wade through it. Look at the emotions in this thread! I'm about average age for this group but rather young in the motorcycle years (!4). I've owned a single, 2 V-twins, a couple V-4's and 2 older UJM I-4. I like touring and have yet to find a bike better for than the ST1100 ABS. It is a V-4 shaft drive like a Guzzi. I have highway pegs and can comfortably stretch my legs out. So far, I'm pretty happy with my California, but I had to spend another $450 (Outsider) to make changing the oil a reasonable task. This is the silliness that most buyers won't put up with. Water cooled and fuel injection is inevitable. I think Guzzi could keep selling "old looking" bikes while developing and selling updated design bikes. The Luddites can buy the old bikes and new customers can buy the new Guzzi.
None of it matters if a dealer system isn't developed.
Make Modella a museum. ;D ;D ;D
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They wouldn't be shooting themselves in the foot, it would be straight through the HEART if they do away with the air-cooled V-twin like we have. Going to the oil cooler for all of the newer engines they have now was OK. Sure have Piaggio/Aprilia/Guzzi design a new engine but keep the V-twin too.
Dean
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I'm going to state this once again so you don't misunderstand, I..am...not...a..Pi aggio...apologist.
Greg,
Guzzi lost money before Piaggio. Guzzi has lost money for 30 years. If you want to blame Piaggio for that, so be it but don't twist what I'm saying and threaten to take your ball and go home when I point out that you're unrelentingly negative. Especially when you then respond to me pointing that out by being....unrelentin gly negative.
As a motorcycle historian and Guzzi specialist, you're background is impeccable. As a business person, that may not be the case. You're talking a lot of horseshit about Ducati's being rational and how Piaggio don't know what they're doing. Motorcycles and business are two seperate things and business needs to come first unless you have a nutjob billionaire like Deitrich Mateshizch at the helm.
Since when is the service plan for any new Ducati rational? What are you smoking? What part of mashing your nuts agains the tank on every single new Ducati because of the sloped seats is rational? Set the Jim Beam down. The Diavel is rational? Please.
I whole-heartedly agree with you on this being an opportunity to introduce new engine architecture though. The last big recession spawned the UJM. Maybe this would be a good time to design a clean sheet liquid cooled single with shaft drive that could be used as a platform for a streetbike, Scrambler or NTX. It might sell in Asia and Europe.
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"I find it really odd that anyone would want a motorcycle board that consists solely of empty-headed cheerleading. If that's what you all want, fine. I'll join Roper in avoiding this place, so y'all can cheer all the louder." Greg F
I knew it was just a matter of time before the heat got to hot in the kitchen!
Heat? Thanks for the belly laugh.
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I agree with Greg in that I personally would much prefer to see a ground-up design for a water-cooled engine, particularly if it could be unique in some tangible way. But I care about things like the integrity of the concept, and elegance of the solution.
Greg and I part ways when he says that most buyers would be strongly influenced by that same kind of preoccupation, particularly when we talk about a theoretical expanded customer base.
Because I don't believe that the majority of motorcyclists know much one way or the other about the elegance of engineering (which in all honesty is largely subjective anyway. Telescopic forks, anyone?). They just want something that looks cool, feels good and they want to see in some magazine or hear from friends that theirs is excellent in some way. Cycle world says it has ten more ponies than the Honda. Or everybody knows that their bike is "real" while others are "fake".
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I'll pose the question I always ask when we discuss whatever new liquid-cooled engine has been mentioned in the media: what engine configuration should "Guzzi" adopt that will be as identifiable as their own rather than just another "me too" effort? Just about every configuration has been-there-done-that to death by some other manufacturer. Triple - Triumph. Flat-four - Honda. Flat-six - Honda. Inline-six - BMW now. V-four - Honda. Inline-four - everybody (really worked well the first time Guzzi/Benelli tried!). Flat-twin - BMW. V-Twin (transverse crank) - everybody. Parallel-twin - Triumph, Norton. What's that leave? V6, V8, maybe a wide angle V-twin (120 like the Bicilindrica), radial?
Perhaps a longitudinally mounted V4. Honda has done it with their ST1100 & ST1300 but they are not known for it. Guzzi could make it their own and then be known for longitudinally mounted V2's and V4's.
They should build a V7 based LC V4 sport tourer and muscle-cruiser. 1500cc V4? Hell yeah, I'd buy one. Just may put Guzzi on the map for more folks, especially if the magazines would review it favorably.
BTW, I wonder why Guzzi is left out of most comparison tests? Sure, they may come in last, but any press is good press.
Fred
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Greg... if you want to hang onto the old building in Mandello for assembly, etc. and hold it up as the true "soul" of Guzzi, then why is this engine so important to do away with? You want tradition yet don't want tradition. The plant is crumbling and the engine has been revised over the past few years. Seems you're holding out for the wrong things.
-Kevin
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I'm going to state this once again so you don't misunderstand, I..am...not...a..Pi aggio...apologist.
Greg,
Guzzi lost money before Piaggio. Guzzi has lost money for 30 years. If you want to blame Piaggio for that, so be it but don't twist what I'm saying and threaten to take your ball and go home when I point out that you're unrelentingly negative. Especially when you then respond to me pointing that out by being....unrelentin gly negative.
As a motorcycle historian and Guzzi specialist, you're background is impeccable. As a business person, that may not be the case. You're talking a lot of horseshit about Ducati's being rational and how Piaggio don't know what they're doing. Motorcycles and business are two seperate things and business needs to come first unless you have a nutjob billionaire like Deitrich Mateshizch at the helm.
Since when is the service plan for any new Ducati rational? What are you smoking? What part of mashing your nuts agains the tank on every single new Ducati because of the sloped seats is rational? Set the Jim Beam down. The Diavel is rational? Please.
I whole-heartedly agree with you on this being an opportunity to introduce new engine architecture though. The last big recession spawned the UJM. Maybe this would be a good time to design a clean sheet liquid cooled single with shaft drive that could be used as a platform for a streetbike, Scrambler or NTX. It might sell in Asia and Europe.
Of course Guzzi lost money before Piaggio. You all are telling me how much has changed under Piaggio. I'm suggesting that far less has changed than you think. The Guzzis of 2011 are less up to 2011 standards than a 1998 EV was in 1998. They are losing money on them. Dealers are losing money on them. What has changed? They are slouching down a tragic path. I would steer them onto a new one. That makes me negative? Rest assured that I am enjoying the irony.
Ducati builds bikes people buy. Ducati's bikes look great, go like hell, and sell to eager buyers without need to price them at a loss. The engine architecture perfectly suits the bikes. It is better water-cooled, because the architecture is less than ideal for air-cooling. Sure, it takes more maintenance than a Guzzi engine, but if these customers willingly buy them even though the service schedule is onerous, that testifies even more strongly to how rational was the manufacturer who made them. More money for the dealers and manufacturer.
Here's a recent example of how this all plays out. My riding group includes a guy named Anthony. I met him through Steak (from this list), and Anthony started riding with us on a New Year's Day ride in 2008 to Neah Bay, a fairly challenging ride. At the time, he had a huge Harley bagger. He tried hard but couldn't really keep up. He kept coming on rides with the Guzzi boys, though, hoping to improve and was getting better with each ride. He learned over many rides what Guzzis were and admired them. This summer, he even joined us at the Guzzi National. On the ride back, he kept up well, but to do so, he frightened himself badly pushing that Harley way past its limits.
So, he decided to get a more capable bike. Despite all the good feelings he had toward Guzzis, the great dealer at his service here, the super-cheap prices on leftover bikes at Moto Intl., and a very active and helpful local Guzzi support system that he was already well-familiar with, he bought the fanciest Ohlins-epuipped 4vpc Ducati Multistrada, rather than a Guzzi. He had every excuse to buy a Guzzi but bought a Ducati anyway—a more-expensive bike that takes more service and has poorer dealer support here. That was pretty telling. You may call Anthony irrational, but I can't. First of all, he'd beat my ass, but more importantly, he loves the bike. He rode it with the Guzzi boys to Neah Bay this NYD.
If a guy like that passed on buying a Guzzi, it highights how steeply uphill Guzzi's path is with the current bikes.
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There're way more similarities than differences between Guzzis and Harleys. Both do have soul. Some see it. Some kinda sense it but are sheepish about acknowledging it. Some never will see it. So be it.
Actually, I've always preached the similarities.
And IF they are more similar than dis-similar, than Guzzis lack of success (at least in the US) has NOTHING to do with your perceived limitations of the motor configuration, it has EVERYTHING to do with Brand Image/Marketing and Dealership Network (actual reliability of new models being part of both categories).
Except among us weirdos here, and to very few outsiders, Guzzi has no positive identity.
I think that is absolutely not true.
Hell even half the guys at the Harley shops know what a Guzzi is FROM THAT ENGINE DESIGN.
Pretty much any rider who reads one or more motorcycle magazine knows VISUALLY what a Guzzi is from that engine design.
If Guzzi is not a building or a place, then Guzzi is also not a transverse-V engine. It is said that the old factory holds Guzzi back, and that there's nothing about Mandello that imbues itself into the motorcycles to make them special. I say both of those are false, but clearly I am in the minority on that. But if you really believe those things, how can you believe that the transverse-V engine doesn't also hold Guzzi back? If you polled average riders, you would find that you are in the minority about the transverse-V engine. Most riders think that it's a retarded design in the water-cooled age. They are right in that assessment and will vote with their dollars.
Logically you've not supported your position on the motor and brand identity.
Probably 90-99% of the people who buy a Guzzi (or most motorcycles) never see the factory or particularly care about it.
But 100% of them and their riding buddies SEE the bike, and on Guzzis for decades the SINGLE MOST DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC is their unique to the market engine layout. That IS the brand identity.
We, as owners, know there is more to it, the eclectic abilities and balance of the bikes, but that VAST majority of the riding public do not have any idea about those things. They just know it's the bike with the cylinders sticking up on each side.
My experience (from the past 2 decades as both a rider AND in technical publishing for the motor vehicle industries) is that THE VAST MAJORITY OF CONSUMERS (MOTORYCLISTS INCLUDED) DO NOT KNOW JACK DICK ABOUT THE ENGINEERING OF THEIR BIKES. And as proud as we are to be "self-sufficient Guzzisitas" just read half the technical questions on this forum or any other forum to know that's true.
Most do not know what limitation a longitudinal crankshaft/transverse V-cylinder architecture place on a motorcycle, so they don't know or care if it is logical to water cool such a layout.
They only care about finding a bike that DOES WHAT THEY WANT and LOOKS LIKE THEY WANT.
After those things they look at
1. Price
2. Convenience (ease of finding dealers and accessories)
3. Moto journalist reports
4. Race results.
5. Specific engineering requirements
There may be a minority who put things like 4 or 5 first, but they are a very small minority.
Actually I put 5 FIRST, but I'm weird like that because I have VERY VERY VERY specific requirements for a vehicle (bike or car or truck or boat). I've never bought a new car that wasn't either special ordered from the factory OR customized significantly (as in to the tune of an additional 10-20% or more of the vehicle price) before delivery. But I KNOW I'm in the minority.
I suggest that you happen to be in the minority too.
Therefore you and I can't impose our own preferences on Guzzi, we have to put ourselves in the shoes of the average consumer.
Talk about voting with their dollars, Harley remains the absolute king of street bike sales in the US and the vast majority of those sales are their air-cooled models.
Again, I'll repeat, I'm not against Guzzi branching out into a water-cooled bike, even possibly one of a different engine design (i.e. not longitudinal crank/transverse V), but ONLY if they don't at the same time abandon their air-cooled version. If they changed all of their bikes to water-cooling AND abandonded that too, they would have a VERY VERY long road to a new brand identity. They would be no more than another Aprilia or Augusta, with sales EVEN LOWER than they are now.
Spot on Kevin! If people have heard of Guzzi (that's the minority!), most have never ridden one. That being said, was it the motor that they never test-rode that turned them off? Lets maybe consider other factors that turned them off. I had a friend test ride a Guzzi for the first time recently. He loved how it rode, but was not willing to buy because of all the other issues related to owning a Guzzi. It was the motor he wanted, but not the other crap. Fix the other crap first. I wouldn't own a Guzzi if it wasn't for this motor. I'm not married to it but I've hated sitting on the sidelines looking at all the other crap that should be fixed with Guzzi. No other engine excites me. I'm 44 yrs old.
-Kevin
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Greg, the problem with that anecdote is that I've ridden a number of Ducatis and have absolutely no desire to buy one.
So it works both ways and there is more to the story. I.E. people buy bikes for different reasons. Maybe he just wanted to try something MORE different from his Harley than the Guzzi? But what's right for him won't necessarily be so for someone else.
Anecdotal retort - Avacatto from this board owned an M696, and then a Multistrada (which I rode recently, not my thing, wouldn't buy one for sure) and sold them, now he's got an 8V Griso.
But, as a related tangent, I'm curious what the air-cooled vs. water-cooled motor split has been for Ducati over the past decade or so? I know the Monster was predominantly air-cooled and was a sales leader for a long time, especially the time-frame where Ducati finally broke the 10k mark in the US. I suspect it will show that Ducati was smart enough not to just water-cool everything and alienate their current customers.
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Ducati is known to most folks. Guzzi is not. No mystery to me why their numbers are higher than Guzzi's. What people know they buy. I think we need to get off this whole motor debate until we unveil Guzzi to the public.
-Kevin
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I'm going to state this once again so you don't misunderstand, I..am...not...a..Pi aggio...apologist.
Greg,
Guzzi lost money before Piaggio. Guzzi has lost money for 30 years. If you want to blame Piaggio for that, so be it but don't twist what I'm saying and threaten to take your ball and go home when I point out that you're unrelentingly negative. Especially when you then respond to me pointing that out by being....unrelentin gly negative.
As a motorcycle historian and Guzzi specialist, you're background is impeccable. As a business person, that may not be the case. You're talking a lot of horseshit about Ducati's being rational and how Piaggio don't know what they're doing. Motorcycles and business are two seperate things and business needs to come first unless you have a nutjob billionaire like Deitrich Mateshizch at the helm.
Since when is the service plan for any new Ducati rational? What are you smoking? What part of mashing your nuts agains the tank on every single new Ducati because of the sloped seats is rational? Set the Jim Beam down. The Diavel is rational? Please.
I whole-heartedly agree with you on this being an opportunity to introduce new engine architecture though. The last big recession spawned the UJM. Maybe this would be a good time to design a clean sheet liquid cooled single with shaft drive that could be used as a platform for a streetbike, Scrambler or NTX. It might sell in Asia and Europe.
Of course Guzzi lost money before Piaggio. You all are telling me how much has changed under Piaggio. I'm suggesting that far less has changed than you think. The Guzzis of 2011 are less up to 2011 standards than a 1998 EV was in 1998. They are losing money on them. Dealers are losing money on them. What has changed? They are slouching down a tragic path. I would steer them onto a new one. That makes me negative? Rest assured that I am enjoying the irony.
Ducati builds bikes people buy. Ducati's bikes look great, go like hell, and sell to eager buyers without need to price them at a loss. The engine architecture perfectly suits the bikes. It is better water-cooled, because the architecture is less than ideal for air-cooling. Sure, it takes more maintenance than a Guzzi engine, but if these customers willingly buy them even though the service schedule is onerous, that testifies even more strongly to how rational was the manufacturer who made them. More money for the dealers and manufacturer.
Here's a recent example of how this all plays out. My riding group includes a guy named Anthony. I met him through Steak (from this list), and Anthony started riding with us on a New Year's Day ride in 2008 to Neah Bay, a fairly challenging ride. At the time, he had a huge Harley bagger. He tried hard but couldn't really keep up. He kept coming on rides with the Guzzi boys, though, hoping to improve and was getting better with each ride. He learned over many rides what Guzzis were and admired them. This summer, he even joined us at the Guzzi National. On the ride back, he kept up well, but to do so, he frightened himself badly pushing that Harley way past its limits.
So, he decided to get a more capable bike. Despite all the good feelings he had toward Guzzis, the great dealer at his service here, the super-cheap prices on leftover bikes at Moto Intl., and a very active and helpful local Guzzi support system that he was already well-familiar with, he bought the fanciest Ohlins-epuipped 4vpc Ducati Multistrada, rather than a Guzzi. He had every excuse to buy a Guzzi but bought a Ducati anyway—a more-expensive bike that takes more service and has poorer dealer support here. That was pretty telling. You may call Anthony irrational, but I can't. First of all, he'd beat my ass, but more importantly, he loves the bike. He rode it with the Guzzi boys to Neah Bay this NYD.
If a guy like that passed on buying a Guzzi, it highights how steeply uphill Guzzi's path is with the current bikes.
I not telling you anything. You know more about bikes than I do. I am just suggesting that a 2012 Stelvio is going to be a legitimate adventure tourer when placed up against the current competition. I think the 2012 Norge GT is going to be a helluva lot closer to besting a BMW RT in any sort of comparison than the 2007-2011 is.
I'm 41 and have owned 30 bikes of all engine layouts and style. A few years ago I traded a ZRX1100 straight up for a 2002 Lemans. I liked it but it wasn't what I really wanted. I sold it because I never connected with it. A year later my wife bought me an Eldorado for my birthday and it was love at first ride. I loved riding it but it didn't meet my needs and as an enthusiastic rider, I didn't want to get killed by riding it beyond its' capabilities. It was an antique. It was not fast enough, did not stop well enough and did not handle well enough. It was a wonderful, amazingly fun bike to cruise on but I am not a cruiser kind of guy yet.
For my 40th birthday I decided to buy a brand new motorcycle. I looked at every kind of bike. The new Concours, Aprilia RSV's, Ducati's, Honda's, I even very briefly considered becoming a BMW GS riding D-Bag but in the end I couldn't see myself wearing the high viz twat suit. I finally narrowed it down to two bikes that I thought were closest to meeting the needs I had listed for the next five years. The two bikes were the ZX-14 and the 1200 Sport. On the surface, these bikes have nothing in common. They are worlds apart in their performance. The Kawasaki dealer is 18 miles away. The Guzzi dealer is 105 miles away.
I bought the Guzzi because it's "different". It came down to me deciding that I would rather sit on my living room couch all winter looking at a Moto Guzzi than the Kawasaki. That's it. It meets my needs and it's "different". I am not ignorant of Guzzi's history. When someone like Pescara starts patronizing me and throwing names around, I know who they are. I just don't care. History is secondary to garage appeal for me. I like my Guzzi, I don't care if anyone else does and I'm glad that Piaggio is improving the bikes. That's all. The bike is the most important thing to me...not the history behind it. The history is a bonus, not a deciding factor in my purchase.
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Actually, I've always preached the similarities.
I am aware of that and have always enjoyed your views on the matter. You are one of the few who sees it. I know some Harley guys who see it, too. Piaggio could capitalize on that if they made a few key changes. Dave and I gave them an earful of things to consider on their forthcoming Road King "killer."
And IF they are more similar than dis-similar, than Guzzis lack of success (at least in the US) has NOTHING to do with your perceived limitations of the motor configuration, it has EVERYTHING to do with Brand Image/Marketing and Dealership Network (actual reliability of new models being part of both categories).
Guzzis and Harleys share many similarities, but ergonomics are not one of the similarities. If the bikes don't fit or feel odd to most people, all the marketing in the world won't make 'em buy. More on this below.
Hell even half the guys at the Harley shops know what a Guzzi is FROM THAT ENGINE DESIGN.
Pretty much any rider who reads one or more motorcycle magazine knows VISUALLY what a Guzzi is from that engine design.
Some may know it, but that's not to say it's a positive perception. I know what a Suzuki Madura is. It's not a positive perception, though.
Logically you've not supported your position on the motor and brand identity.
Probably 90-99% of the people who buy a Guzzi (or most motorcycles) never see the factory or particularly care about it.
But 100% of them and their riding buddies SEE the bike, and on Guzzis for decades the SINGLE MOST DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC is their unique to the market engine layout. That IS the brand identity.
We, as owners, know there is more to it, the eclectic abilities and balance of the bikes, but that VAST majority of the riding public do not have any idea about those things. They just know it's the bike with the cylinders sticking up on each side.
They know it, but it's not a positive association.
My experience (from the past 2 decades as both a rider AND in technical publishing for the motor vehicle industries) is that THE VAST MAJORITY OF CONSUMERS (MOTORYCLISTS INCLUDED) DO NOT KNOW JACK DICK ABOUT THE ENGINEERING OF THEIR BIKES. And as proud as we are to be "self-sufficient Guzzisitas" just read half the technical questions on this forum or any other forum to know that's true.
Most do not know what limitation a longitudinal crankshaft/transverse V-cylinder architecture place on a motorcycle, so they don't know or care if it is logical to water cool such a layout.
They only care about finding a bike that DOES WHAT THEY WANT and LOOKS LIKE THEY WANT.
After those things they look at
1. Price
2. Convenience (ease of finding dealers and accessories)
3. Moto journalist reports
4. Race results.
5. Specific engineering requirements
There may be a minority who put things like 4 or 5 first, but they are a very small minority.
Actually I put 5 FIRST, but I'm weird like that because I have VERY VERY VERY specific requirements for a vehicle (bike or car or truck or boat). I've never bought a new car that wasn't either special ordered from the factory OR customized significantly (as in to the tune of an additional 10-20% or more of the vehicle price) before delivery. But I KNOW I'm in the minority.
I suggest that you happen to be in the minority too.
I've worked in the same industry and am a rider, too. You're right: they don't care about transverse this and longitudinal that. I never said that they did.
What I've said is that potential customers care when the tech stuff is in the way of their knees, or when foot controls have to be put in awkward places to keep their knees off of the tech stuff, or when seat heights are too high compared to the competition because of the aforementioned, or because the wheelbase is too long because of the aforementioned, or because the weight bias is so rearward because of the aforementioned. That's when they very much care and vote with their wallet. I saw it almost everyday, sometimes several times a day. If a bike fits a person poorly, it's game over on the showroom 75 percent of the time. The transverse-V engine forces all kinds of compromises from an engineering standpoint that are only justified if the excellent air flow that configuration provides is needed to cool the engine.
Yes, I am in the minority. That does not prevent me from acknowledging the majority point of view, however
Therefore you and I can't impose our own preferences on Guzzi, we have to put ourselves in the shoes of the average consumer.
I really believe that that's what I'm doing here (shoes of average consumer). Of course, I can't impose anything on Piaggio. I would just like them to think outside the "Guzzis ARE transverse-V twins" box that will nullify the effect of future improvements.
Talk about voting with their dollars, Harley remains the absolute king of street bike sales in the US and the vast majority of those sales are their air-cooled models.
You're preaching to the choir there. There are good damned reasons H-D sells so many bikes.
And long live the air-cooled motorcycle engine: "The Motor that has had no Future Since 1977."
Again, I'll repeat, I'm not against Guzzi branching out into a water-cooled bike, even possibly one of a different engine design (i.e. not longitudinal crank/transverse V), but ONLY if they don't at the same time abandon their air-cooled version. If they changed all of their bikes to water-cooling AND abandonded that too, they would have a VERY VERY long road to a new brand identity. They would be no more than another Aprilia or Augusta, with sales EVEN LOWER than they are now.
OK, I can mostly agree with that. I hope they build the air-cooled motor for another 90 years. I hope they'll also start working on some other motor configuration for any water-cooled Guzzis.
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Greg... if you want to hang onto the old building in Mandello for assembly, etc. and hold it up as the true "soul" of Guzzi, then why is this engine so important to do away with? You want tradition yet don't want tradition. The plant is crumbling and the engine has been revised over the past few years. Seems you're holding out for the wrong things.
-Kevin
I would turn that on its head:
You all say the tradition of factory and place do not matter but that the tradition of a transverse-V engine matters? Why? Nobody buys them. Nobody but a few thousand nutcases around the world is even peripherally aware of the Guzzi V. If Guzzi sticks with that engine and water-cools it, they are doomed to needing all the money Piaggio is willing to lose.
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Greg, my point on ergos was more of corporate similarities. I.E. you know what to expect from Harley, from model-to-model there are huge similarities in fit, feel, finish, controls etc. I would say same goes for Guzzi, that model brand consistency. That such things are part of brand identity.
On awareness, I vehemently disagree that most riders have an unfavorable "awareness" of the brand. In my experiene 9 out of 10 guys get excited when they see a Guzzi. Whether they really "know" the brand or not, MOST people seem to react very positively to the thought/image of a Guzzi.
IF there is a problem with the brand being tarnished, I don't think that comes out until they start doing research and start talking a high percentage of bitchy/crabby owners.
But back to ergos, you bring up a point I find curious, because I seem to be built to fit the average man's bike.
At 5' 10-11" ish, 32" inseam, 225 lbs or so, I seem to be a size where I just kinda fit most bikes.
Cylinders on Guzzis are not in my way, my Breva is fine with the stock seat or the 1" lowered seat, I could ride oilheads with their adjustable seats (on models so equipped) in any of the up to 3 positions, Sportsters fit me, even the lowered models fit well enough etc etc etc.
I'll have to take your word for it if you tell me some people don't fit Guzzi's all that well, but considering some of the lumbering giants that ride Californias, I kinda took it for granted that a Norge or Breva would work for em too (granted, now that I think about it I have heard of a couple of people putting adjustable pegs to get more room).
Then again, I've always thought that it was common place for MOST people to change the ergos on a bike in some way to fit them better - just because MOST bikes don't have adjustable seats, bars, controls etc.
I guess even though I've NEVER had to change bars/risers for ergos or shocks for height and seats for height or comfort (granted I've changed a bunch of seats for comfort), I've always thought that most people DO that even if I don't.
???
But really, is THAT the biggest issue in your mind of the cylinder placement? Ergos?
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Greg: I've admired the Guzzi V Twin of the past when I got off the bike. When I rode, all I could see was the rocker covers and carbs. But the feel of that engine - like NOTHING else. That's what I loved. If making a liquid cooled engine allows Guzzi to be able to sell bikes in Europe in the future and survive, I'll love it.
Besides, the first woman I took for a ride on my V7 Sport proclaimed loudly when we came to a stop: "Ooooo, it shakes!"
You should've replied: "No, baby, it throbs!"
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Greg, my point on ergos was more of corporate similarities. I.E. you know what to expect from Harley, from model-to-model there are huge similarities in fit, feel, finish, controls etc. I would say same goes for Guzzi, that model brand consistency. That such things are part of brand identity.
On awareness, I vehemently disagree that most riders have an unfavorable "awareness" of the brand. In my experiene 9 out of 10 guys get excited when they see a Guzzi. Whether they really "know" the brand or not, MOST people seem to react very positively to the thought/image of a Guzzi.
IF there is a problem with the brand being tarnished, I don't think that comes out until they start doing research and start talking a high percentage of bitchy/crabby owners.
But back to ergos, you bring up a point I find curious, because I seem to be built to fit the average man's bike.
At 5' 10-11" ish, 32" inseam, 225 lbs or so, I seem to be a size where I just kinda fit most bikes.
Cylinders on Guzzis are not in my way, my Breva is fine with the stock seat or the 1" lowered seat, I could ride oilheads with their adjustable seats (on models so equipped) in any of the up to 3 positions, Sportsters fit me, even the lowered models fit well enough etc etc etc.
I'll have to take your word for it if you tell me some people don't fit Guzzi's all that well, but considering some of the lumbering giants that ride Californias, I kinda took it for granted that a Norge or Breva would work for em too (granted, now that I think about it I have heard of a couple of people putting adjustable pegs to get more room).
Then again, I've always thought that it was common place for MOST people to change the ergos on a bike in some way to fit them better - just because MOST bikes don't have adjustable seats, bars, controls etc.
I guess even though I've NEVER had to change bars/risers for ergos or shocks for height and seats for height or comfort (granted I've changed a bunch of seats for comfort), I've always thought that most people DO that even if I don't.
???
But really, is THAT the biggest issue in your mind of the cylinder placement? Ergos?
They may like seeing Guzzis, but they sure don't like buying them.
Ergos is but one aspect of the compromises forced by that engine. It's the one people notice first, when they sit on the bike, so it is the one that it's most important to address. There are many more after that.
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They may like seeing Guzzis, but they sure don't like buying them.
Ergos is but one aspect of the compromises forced by that engine. It's the one people notice first, when they sit on the bike, so it is the one that it's most important to address. There are many more after that.
And I honestly think that is more of a Marketing and Dealer Network issue than anything else with some issue on pricing as well (MSRP is too high for bad dealer network and no marketing).
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Guzzis lack of success (at least in the US) has NOTHING to do with your perceived limitations of the motor configuration, it has EVERYTHING to do with Brand Image/Marketing and Dealership Network (actual reliability of new models being part of both categories).
That's a fair statement, and its also a factor why Piaggio/Aprilia has had failure after failure with sales of their own brands. The RSV has been their only large displacement motorcycle success, over a decade ago, despite spending huge budgets on new model after new model that failed to sell.
Piaggio is filled with people who think that due to their long history in the Italian scooter market they should be able to command the motorcycle market like another Honda or BMW. In fact they are a side note in the motorcycle market, and the only way they will ever grow is to accept it. Maybe after years of success as a solid bit player, they could grow in the large displacement motorcycle market.
Job 1 in accepting and working with their situation might be to market Guzzi from its strengths, which are mainly being a hugely historic marque that attracts people who like simple, elegant machines that do not in any way replicate their competitors. Preserving and growing those characteristics in every way possible would be a good place to start.
You all say the tradition of factory and place do not matter but that the tradition of a transverse-V engine matters? Why? Nobody buys them. Nobody but a few thousand nutcases around the world is even peripherally aware of the Guzzi V. If Guzzi sticks with that engine and water-cools it, they are doomed to needing all the money Piaggio is willing to lose.
I agree.
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Guzzi goes all water while Harley and BMW make air/oil cooled models, I'll likely not buy another new Guzzi. And I prefer new bikes, so Guzzi's loss...
or not.....
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They may like seeing Guzzis, but they sure don't like buying them.
Ergos is but one aspect of the compromises forced by that engine. It's the one people notice first, when they sit on the bike, so it is the one that it's most important to address. There are many more after that.
And I honestly think that is more of a Marketing and Dealer Network issue than anything else with some issue on pricing as well (MSRP is too high for bad dealer network and no marketing).
I am in total agreement with you on this one. For anyone that truly loves machinery, especially on two wheels, our Guzzis are so damned visceral. I'm proud to throw a leg over the 1200 Sport after having lunch in our wonderfully yuppy little town of Chagrin Falls, Ohio. In a sea of Harleys! These bikes are kick-a** machines, a damned hoot to ride, and deserve better sales and service support across the USA than they currently receive. New engine? Maybe, but in addition to the V twin. Not a replacement. Many of you remember when BMW was about to drop the flat twin, since it was going to be replaced by the K bike? Sorry ...... enter the Oilhead a few years later.
Prior to that, BMW built the "Final Editions" of the R100RS and a few other models, only to have to reintroduce the RS (although built on an R80 frame) a few years later.
So, BMW finally figured that they had a couple of customer bases they'd have to satisfy ..... the flat twin guys, and those who wanted a more modern platform.
They really had a screwed-up product mix for a few years (mid 1990s) ...... K bikes (bricks), the new Oilheads, and they were still building the Airhead Type 247 bikes.
Finally, sorted out to Oilhead semi-traditional engines, and newer K series machines, plus middle weight bikes (F Series)
But that's BMW. They're pushing nearly 100,000 bikes out of the factory each year now. I'd have to think Guzzi would (a) not get the funding from Piaggio to go on a multi-engine spree, and (b) that it would make little difference if Guzzi had 1-2-3-4-5-6 cylinder engine if the dealer network cannot be expanded and improved (not speaking about the several good dealer out there today, but for me, most of you are a long way off).
Guzzi, take what you have, which to my way of thinking is a nice lineup of bikes with their own endearing qualities, market what you have, support what you have, and bump your annual sales from 5,000 bikes to 10,000 per year.
Bob
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Chagrin Falls. What a great name for a town.
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Chagrin Falls. What a great name for a town.
And a lovely, wealthy little town it is, too! Middle of town consists of several nice restaurants, some upscale, others moderate but nice, a few that overlook the Chagrin River, a nice stone block arch bridge over the river that overlooks the falls (at least 40-50 foot drop) Starbucks in an old building on one side, and the old popcorn and soda shop on the other.
And Chagrin Hardware ...... this is as good as it gets. Hardware Store 19th Century style. Not a retro, but the real thing. The wooden floors creak so nicely!
http://chagrin.doitbest.com/home.aspx
These kinds of towns are one of the main reasons I stay in this part of Ohio. As you'll see below, many of our towns and rivers are based on the original Indian names. ex - Chagrin, Cuyahoga, Walhonding ................... ................... .............
Bob
BTW - glad to see you back on WG!
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Many fanciful stories have been told about the origin of the name "Chagrin," applied first to the
river and then to the falls, the township and the village, it being often supposed that is comes from the "chagrin" felt by somebody, about something, on its banks. It is, however, undoubtedly derived from the old Indian word "Shaguin," which is to be found applied to it on maps issued before the Revolution. "Shaguin" is supposed to mean "clear," but this is not so certain.
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[/b]
Besides, the first woman I took for a ride on my V7 Sport proclaimed loudly when we came to a stop: "Ooooo, it shakes!"
You should've replied: "No, baby, it throbs!"
Another friend of mine had a girlfriend who threatened to leave him when he sold his Yamaha 650.
He then went off on a string of V7 Sports and a LM1.
She married him.
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My gosh! What's with all this beating up? It's hard to place just where Guzzi needs to head to be more successful (oxymoron) and gain footage in the marketplace for the future. The Transverse V is identifiable but only to those that care. If it weren't this way would we hear questions like who makes those and people offering that they didn't know they were made still. There is practically zilch in the way of advertising and brand awareness.
Personally, if Guzzi is to survive, they will need to modernize and make their bikes stand out and do it at a price commensurate with the desire to own them. Could they enter competition and win on the track? Takes boatloads of money and would take time to prove themselves.
I ask you all this, what would Guzzi have to do to make their bikes desirable to young riders over all the other manufacturers seeking to do the same? Making a better Harley may be a short dream as customers dry up. I hope someone is on top of this.
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Maybe Guzzi needs to take a hard look at what they currently possess.
- air cooling - big, heavy, beautiful engine with all those cast cylinder fins
- v twin engine
- capable of producing 110 hp and remain streetable
- a big and torquey bike that makes great mechanical sounds
- a beautiful sport tourer, an adventure tourer, a Griso (can't define it), and a lovely smaller retro bike
- you're not 21 anymore ..... you're at the right age for a Guzzi
I don't know ........ there's so many ways the current product could be marketed. It should not be marketed head to head with BMW or Triumph. Piaggio needs to pick the niche, and pick it well, then message to that audience. This s*** isn't rocket science!
My Gawd, if HD could sell over 200,000 bikes per year for several years, I'd have to believe Guzzi could take their current model mix and move some iron. It pisses me off when I envision the engineers doing their level best to turn out a really nice machine, only to see defeat because of a lackluster sales/marketing/support organization. Somebody should be slapped!
Bob
PS - there is something to be said for a big, relatively inefficient air-cooled engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQxb-V-rZqA
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Young riders are the vast minority and for the most part they are not buying bikes, especially new ones.
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Young riders are the vast minority and for the most part they are not buying bikes, especially new ones.
;-T
Bob
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I have been following this thread for a few days, and although I am new to Guzzi I will offer my perspective. I have been a Guzzi fan for years -probably since I first saw magnum force- but have never been able to afford new, and used Guzzis in northern alberta are very rare.
After several years of saving I was able to buy my new 1200 sport this fall. I purchased it despite our local dealers, certainly not because of them. If there is something holding Guzzi sales back (at least in this area) it is the dealers. There is no passion for the name or the bikes, they are on the floor because they carry a little of everything, but when it comes time to talk about the bikes they would rather push the Triumphs or Suzukis. At the bike show last month there were THREE Guzzis there; 2009 Stelvio, 2009 750 Breva, 2010 V7 Cafe Classic. No Norge and no Griso and no dealer who cared to talk about the bikes. Even the Piaggio rep seemed disinterested.
How can Guzzi possibly sell bikes, (air cooled, water cooled, - it doesn't matter) if there is no one who cares about the bikes to show them off? Royal Enfield took up more space and probably attracted more new customers than Guzzi did.
It won't matter one iota what Guzzi does with its engines or its style without dealers who care about the bikes. If Guzzi has found it's niche in sport tourers, adventure tourers and classic standards then it is time to show the world what they have.
Of course I have no evidence of this, but will add this, in the relatively small city of Chilliwack British Columbia there are probably more Guzzi riders per capita than most other places in north america - and they all speak VERY highly of their local dealer, ( for both wrench skill and passion). I would imagine you would find the same thing in Seattle around Moto International?
I love Guzzi for all that it is, the style, sound, history, and will continue to support it so long as they provide a product I like. Does it need to be a transverse twin? No, even though I love it. Just make it well and make it unique. I could care less that Guzzi is under the Piaggio umbrella, so long as they respect the name and history and keep the bikes unique from their other lines.
For what its worth I am only 34 yrs old and when I tell people my age what I ride they all say "a what?"
Cheers,
Brock
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Dealers get enthusiastic about bikes that sell. They get even more enthusiastic about bikes that can be sold for a profit. Dealers lose enthusiasm for bikes that sit on the floor unsold because even when they finally do sell, the dealers have made no money on them. If people were buying these things, the dealers'd be as enthusiastic as you could ask them to be. Blaming it all on dealers isn't going to lead anyone to a workable solution.
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makes no sense whatsoever to build a LC V-twin & mount it transversely
(a) it doesn't hurt anything.
(b) assuming shaft-drive, it avoids the necessity for a right-angle gear transfer from the crank-shaft.
Lower centre of gravity too... 8)
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Passion should be admired and embraced and it seems this site has lots of that. So much of our lives is laking in that regard. But at the end of the day it is still a mechanical device, a motorcycle. I am sad ( and I hope wrong) that folks might apply this much energy of thought to a bike. There are lots of great ones, pick one and stop bitchin, maybe apply the energy elsewhere. But as I reconsider this I recognize its impossibility,rage on Nay Sayers or advocates it gives us something to talk about.
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Victory & Canam spyder came to town here a few years back and grew
a following from nothing...
Guzzi (& Aprilia for that matter) arnt really known here but could do the same...
with the right package...He's hopeing ;-T
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Why all the talk about comparing HD to MG? HD has one style bike a very narrow focus and has developed a househod name for itself. Whenever I tell someone (non-bikers) I ride bikes, they say what do you have a Harley. If I say Ducati, Guzzi or Triumph, they oh I never heard of them.
Guzzi has more in common with BMW, Ducati and Triumph and follwing their lead would be a good thing for the brand. And yes they both have air and liquid cooled engines.
A Guzzi dealership cannot stand alone in the US. It needs to be affiliated with a dual dealership. In my area there are Triumph/Ducati and BMW/Triumph. A Guzzi/Aprillia was tried locally and failed - two orphan non mainstream brands. Gotta a have a mainstream brand to draw attention to others. Ride the shirt tails of these successful bikes and let the prospective buyer looking at the other brand get a gander at the Guzzi line - the only chance they will sell in reasonable numbers - OMO. Paggio must be smart enough to realize this, hell they build and market personal jets are a leader in the scooter industry and from what I see they have developed a lot of advertising for MG and now new product development.
As the old saying goes "A fool will lose tomorrow while reaching back to yesterday". We can enjoy our classic and vintage bikes, cars, airplanes, but its new vehicle sales that fuels the industry.
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Hi Greg.
Good to have you back on WG.
I do really appreciate your point of view and agree that Guzzi need something new to pay the bills (a diesel, electric, I dunno...)
Now, would you please care to clarify some things for me, that I don't quite get:
How come that guzzi is a failure compared to other iconic aircooled engines: The Harley, BMW boxer and Ducati L-twin (you can even throw the Triumph twin in, if you like).
You once stated, that Piaggio needs to learn the motorcycle business. What do the other brands do right, that Piaggio doesn't?
I think that the Guzzis are getting there in terms of performance. Now they just need to shed 100 lbs ;D
/Steffen, Denmark
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Why all the talk about comparing HD to MG? HD has one style bike a very narrow focus and has developed a househod name for itself. Whenever I tell someone (non-bikers) I ride bikes, they say what do you have a Harley. If I say Ducati, Guzzi or Triumph, they oh I never heard of them.
Guzzi has more in common with BMW, Ducati and Triumph and follwing their lead would be a good thing for the brand. And yes they both have air and liquid cooled engines.
A Guzzi dealership cannot stand alone in the US.
Couple of thoughts Jim:
First off ONLY NON-RIDERS haven't heard of Ducati, Guzzi or Triumph. This is most significant in sales of introductory models though I guess it is somewhat representative of the overall brand image. Still, by the time someone gets some experience with motorcycles they know those brands.
Kinda like BMW, I can't tell you how many times I've heard "they make bikes?". Hell, I once called a motorcycle junkyard in TN when we had an airhead with a broken coil at a hotel on a road trip. When I asked if they had any BMW coils the voice on the other side said (with a deep drawl) "Siiiiir, this here's a MOTOR-SICYLE JunkYARD". ::) But somehow they've grown to 100k annual sales worldwide.
Anyway, Harley and Guzzi are similar in the following ways
1. Long-Lived marque with significant history.
2. Predominantly air-cooled motors
3. Ease of maintenance.
4. Bikes that add up to more than the sum of their parts (i.e. no where near the cutting edge of performance, but bikes that do what they do very well).
5. That X factor - that almost intangible quality of visceralness, something more than a simple appliance.
6. Currently produce only variances on one basic engine design (V-rod not-with-standing).
BUT, I disagree that Guzzi offers more styles of bikes and that the Harley is only one narrow focus.
Harley has the 883/1200 EVO 4-cam, the 96, 103 and 110 BT 2-cam, and the water-cooled OHC V-rd
Guzzi has the 750cc small-block and 3 related flavors of the 1100/1200cc Big-Block (varying only in valve train and charging system)
Harley offers bikes on variations of 5 different chassis (6 if you count trikes)
Guzzi offers bikes on variations of 3 different chassis
Harley offers bikes from an MSRP of about $7k-30k
Guzzi offers bikes from an MSRP of about $9k-16k
Harley offers Sportsters (from entry level lowered cruisers to standards to sporting models), Dynas (Sporty big twin cruisers), Softails (traditional looking cruisers), Vrods (muscle cruisers), Touring models, and now Trikes.
Guzzi offers - V7/N7 (from entry level cruisers to standards), B1200/G1200 (sporting models), S1200 ("adventure" bike), N12 (Sport-touring model), Cali (from classic standard to touring models).
The only real difference is that Guzzi offers a specific Sport-Tourer and Adventure bike - but it's a single bike in both cases. But Harley still appeals to a wider audience obviously, largely beacuse of brand image/marketing, but ALSO because of ease of ownership from having so many different flavors, dealers and accessories to "make it fit/work" for each individual rider.
I would say BMW and Triumph have more variations in bikes/chassis.
I would also note that Ducati is at least as narrowly focused as Guzzi/Harley, possibly more so.
But Harley and BMW dealers CAN stand alone.
What it comes down to is volume and brand image.
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Harley has 50+% of the American Market. Guzzi isn't even a blip. End of comparison.
Big companies tend to not do stupid stuff for long. I work for GM. They're now the second-largest automaker in the world (only 30,000 cars behind Toyota). They actually have a trade surplus with China, selling more Buicks there than in the US.
Piaggio has been selling millions of two-wheeled bikes for years. I think the blame-game is up for why Guzzi can't sell more bikes than BMW builds in a day.
They were in deep doo-doo even during the SEIMM era when the V-Twins first came out. They couldn't wait to sell it to DeTomaso, who immediately reduced cost and quality across the board and marketed Benelli-built bikes with Moto Guzzi logos.
Was it the 16-inch front wheels, that were only there for looks long after other manufacturers gave up on the set-up?
Was it the quality control of the nineties when bikes coming over were a mess? Was it the Hydraulic lifters? 8V recalls last year?
Was it lackluster marketing? Supply chain issues? Cranky workers in an antique factory? No money for R&D?
My point is, it's a target-rich environment. Whether Guzzi needs to sell 3000 units or 3 million units, two things are for sure:
1. They aren't going to do it on the same platform that hasn't worked for them over the last two decades. Making a few smart tweaks here and there are not going to make the dramatic turnaround that needs to happen here. Let's face it, they can't find 3000 people out of the billions of people on this planet to buy their current inventory, even though, according to this list, everyone in the planet recognizes, respects and even envies the design.
2. Whatever they do, it's going to have to be fast, or they're going to end up like Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Hummer and Saturn. They all had some great new stuff coming out...before the plug got pulled.
Doing the same thing over an over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.
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Harley has 50+% of the American Market. Guzzi isn't even a blip. End of comparison.
I'm talking about the products, not the company.
Was it the quality control of the nineties when bikes coming over were a mess? Was it the Hydraulic lifters? 8V recalls last year?
I don't think this has anything to do with it, because 99% of the motorcycle buying public has no knowledge of these things. At least, not until they come here and ask questions while doing research and the luddittes torpedo the next sale.
I still say it's marketing and dealers, that it.
The frickin' product is there.
It seems like whenever you get someone in the saddle for a ride they are sold.
My plan?
CAREFULLY expand dealers, you have to really vet new ones, but make it attractive to them to carry. Low interest, but put something in place to help them hold prices (I know you can't price fix, but more and more I see brands where you can't get a price break - Bose being one example). I think you want to give them the ability to carry Guzzi and Aprilia and Piaggio BUT not force them to (just make it attractive with incentives).
SLASH prices on the small-blocks. Make em a loss leader, a real bargain and therefore real attractive. Like Harley with the Sportster, once you get people on it some will be happy and just stay there, but you can sell the "big block" as the "next step up" (I know this isn't necessarily the case small-block guys, but it's effectiev marketing).
You grow the owner base from the bottom up.
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When I bought my Breva 1100, I didn't know where they were built. I didn't know if they had hydrolic valves or not. I didn't know if it was water or air cooled. I didn't know that the dealer network was sparse since my dealer seemed reasonable and intelligent. I didn't care that it had a shaft drive vs a chain (after all, my Triumph has a chain and I'm happy with it). I didn't know much about the brand other than it was low volume and had a history. What I DID know was that I was looking for a nice 2-up capable bike that looked good to my eye. It did. I bought it.
Looking back, would I have been happy with some other sport tourer, probably. Do I regret the purchase? nope.
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"SLASH prices on the small-blocks. Make em a loss leader"
There is no markup at all now on the small-blocks. Dealers make little or no money on them now. The entire line is a loss-leader. The 1200 Sport hasn't been manufactured in two years and you can still buy them brand new at a deeply discounted price. Those discounts come out of hardworking dealer's pockets, either the ones that had the bikes on the floor for two years, or the ones that have to compete to sell new bikes while other dealers blow stuff out the door cheap. Being a Moto Guzzi dealer is a thankless job. Not much support from marketing, not a lot of wiggle room on prices, and guys on this list that think they should give their product away or match ridiculous prices from a thousand miles away.
Guzzi should take all the information on this thread and do EXACTLY the opposite of all the advice -- the people on Wild Guzzi are not going to make Guzzi successful, and I would say they've chased more potential Guzzisti away than they've recruited.
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"SLASH prices on the small-blocks. Make em a loss leader"
There is no markup at all now on the small-blocks. Dealers make little or no money on them now. The entire line is a loss-leader. The 1200 Sport hasn't been manufactured in two years and you can still buy them brand new at a deeply discounted price. Those discounts come out of hardworking dealer's pockets, either the ones that had the bikes on the floor for two years, or the ones that have to compete to sell new bikes while other dealers blow stuff out the door cheap. Being a Moto Guzzi dealer is a thankless job. Not much support from marketing, not a lot of wiggle room on prices, and guys on this list that think they should give their product away or match ridiculous prices from a thousand miles away.
Guzzi should take all the information on this thread and do EXACTLY the opposite of all the advice -- the people on Wild Guzzi are not going to make Guzzi successful, and I would say they've chased more potential Guzzisti away than they've recruited.
Perhaps you should have read and understood my whole post before jumping to conclusions.
I said these are the steps that PIAGGIO needs to take.
They (not the dealers) need to find a way to drop the price of the small-blocks to $7k or so at the most.
Then THEY (PIAGGIO) need to find ways to then incentivize dealers to carry them and other Guzzi models and NOT cut prices below a certain point.
I.E. - a low price loss-leader to bring new buyers into the brand, and then have more expensive big-block models that are perceived as the next step up with better benefits/features etc.
They need to grow the brand from the bottom up.
The new Triumph did not reach their success by selling bikes priced only in the upper half of the market.
Ducati didn't start seeing a surge in sales until their lower priced Monster models became popular.
Harley does well because they sell 50-70k bikes at price which are for the most part less than the V7, they at least have 2-3 models that are a good $2k cheaper. A large percentage of people who buy those cheaper models look to upgrade later and stay with the brand.
Hell even BMW figured that out more than a decade ago with the F650 line.
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Make Modella a museum. ;D ;D ;D
Modella? Isn't that a processed meat product, or a variety of cheese or sumthin'?
Hey, I like that! A museum made of cheese!.. :D
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"SLASH prices on the small-blocks. Make em a loss leader"
There is no markup at all now on the small-blocks. Dealers make little or no money on them now. The entire line is a loss-leader. ... Being a Moto Guzzi dealer is a thankless job. Not much support from marketing, not a lot of wiggle room on prices, and guys on this list that think they should give their product away or match ridiculous prices from a thousand miles away.
If there is no markup on the small blocks [a completely amortized production line: they've only been in production relatively unchanged for what, 30 years?] then Piaggio has bigger problems than their boneheaded lack of field support for Guzzi! There is no, none, zip, nada, ZERO reason for a baby Breva or Nevada or whatever to cost more than a Suzuki Gladys: the small-block Tonti has [aside from minor updates] been in production THREE TIMES LONGER (by even the most generous definition) than the Suzi-Q 650 twin which has seen far more $ignificant update$ over it$ $horter life$pan.
If Piaggio cannot bring an at least comparably equipped s-b to market [ie, dual front discs] for <$1k more than their "competition," well, then they're bound for the trash heap of history. Sketchy quality control & the "mystique" of cr@ppy dealer support [not the dealers' fault; it's poor coverage, response time from PGNA, etc I'm talking about here] will only carry you so far...
The reality is this: Piaggio thinks of Guzzi & Aprillia as "supplemental brands" to help further their goal of selling more Vespa dealerships in a country that never saw the need for scooters outside of a very few, very dense urban metropolitan centers. [SFO, NYNY, maybe Chicago & Beantown? (hel)L.A., D.C. or Miami (maybe)?
So if the dealers are paying too much for the small-blocks ex-factory from Piaggio because Piaggio sees them as the cash cow of the Guzzi lineup, that doesn't change the fact that they're a "beginners' or chicks' bike" in the eyes of the U.S. marketplace & need to be priced more aggressively if they're going to be useful as a means of moving repeat buyers to the big blocks [where the real money is: let's face it, there's no reason *any* of the older designs should cost more than their 1970s price in constant dollars, which would put them at about what, $8k now? ;)]
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Harley is not the largest motorcycle manufacturer. It's Honda. In the US, HD has the largest market share but they are not the largest worldwide manufacturer.
No argument, just want to point out that the likely source of confusion here is that Harley has been cited as the largest manufacturer of "large" [750+cc] motorcycles in the world, & had been for several years running [at least up to about 2008? or -9 when the whole worldwide economic bubble burst...]
Lies, damned lies & statistics doncha' know... ;)
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It is not rational to water-cool the transverse-V engine. It is rational to dump the "traditional" Guzzi V for a less-disadvantageous architecture when designing a water-cooled motor. A rational observer would be forced to point out that those criticizing this observation are the real Luddites in this discussion.
Thanks Greg! That's what I was saying way back on page 1? or 2?
I have no problem [actually, I relish the thought!] of Piaggio going to a new engine format for Guzzi to give the brand some hope for the future. As someone else pointed out, Honda has abandoned the longitudinal V4 of the ST1100 & ST1300 [iirc, the ST1300 is only available as NOS & the police bikes now] and if Guzzi is going to w/c the motor, this makes a lot more sense as it is easier to get the power #s to compare w/ the competition for those [unfortunately, prevalent] buyers who shop by the statistical "features." It makes more sense to lose the antiquated & performance-robbing shaft drive layout & go to a more rational motor design entirely, but Piaggio may not want to jar their "faithful" any more than Harley did [which is why the VR motor became such a lardball, instead of the performance motor that Erik Buell was looking for when H-D began that project...]
That said, I still believe that I would be a buyer of the new QV air-cooled mill in the traditional Guzzi layout first, since that design still appeals to me...
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Harley is not the largest motorcycle manufacturer. It's Honda. In the US, HD has the largest market share but they are not the largest worldwide manufacturer.
No argument, just want to point out that the likely source of confusion here is that Harley has been cited as the largest manufacturer of "large" [750+cc] motorcycles in the world, & had been for several years running [at least up to about 2008? or -9 when the whole worldwide economic bubble burst...]
Lies, damned lies & statistics doncha' know... ;)
Harley claims that they sell, at least in the US, the most "heavyweight motorcycles" - defined as 750+cc.
Regional sales figures I've seen (from a friend who was a GM at an all-brands and Harley dealer and who recevied regional reports based on registrations) showed that, at least with the time-frame snapshots I saw, Harley sold 4x as much as the nearest competitor (one of the Japanese brands) and about equivalent to all the other manufacturers combined when it comes to registerable, on-road motorcycles in the US.
Honda et al obviously sells a ton more product, but that includes dirt bikes, ATVs, Generators, Jet Skis bla bla bla (oh yeah, and a few cars too ;) ).
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How about a water cooled Falcone with disk brakes? Hide the radiator as part of the rear fender. Yeah, make it a 12V system too. Really step into the future...
Not too far off the mark there, Carl: Piaggio can put the lay-down single from the MP3 maxi-scooters into a "traditional" motorcycle frame w/ some performance ambitions, and call it the "Millenium Falcone" ;D or something suitably trendy that still plays on Guzzi tradition & have a winner!
Quick to market, comes in at a [desperately needed] price point lower than the present small blocks due to economies of scale, & best of all, they can keep the infinite ratio transmission scooter final drive if they put their minds to it: really appealing for the n00bs! But it will be a "real motorcycle" as opposed to a scooter [some people have a hang up about scooters: I don't, they're far more utilitarian and rational than a motorcycle, but what're you gonna do?]
Are you listening Piaggio?
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I ask you all this, what would Guzzi have to do to make their bikes desirable to young riders over all the other manufacturers seeking to do the same? Making a better Harley may be a short dream as customers dry up. I hope someone is on top of this.
Nothing. The fact is that there are no new young riders because:
1] Hospital bills and health care cost too d@mn much, ergo having kids & raising them is expen$ive. So parents don't want to see their investment get on a street bike & get killed.
2] Why spend all the money on dirt bikes for kids [purchase, maintenance, fuel, equipment, transport] when they'd rather have a PlayWiiBox anyway? No new young dirt riders = reduced #s of street riders once they reach the age where they can get their license to drive... It's no wonder that the avg. age of motorcyclists in the U.S. has been climbing since the end of the 1st dirt bike boom in the mid-70s.
3] Have you seen the price of a new motorcycle these days? :o
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3] Have you seen the price of a new motorcycle these days? :o
Back when I was making $2.75 an hour sweeping streets and cleaning loos, a new Yamaha R5 350 was $700 + tax, or about 250 hours work.
Today, a young man sweating on a construction crew for $9.00 an hour will work about 750 hours to buy the average 600cc sport bike.
Part of the problem is that everyone has to have a 100 HP fully featured motorcycle these days. We considered the 350 Yamaha a full-sized, full-featured bike at the time that you could ride with pride anywhere anytime, and it would go fast (100 MPH) and get good mileage (50 MPG) and tires cost $9.00 each (4 hours wages) from JC Whitney. TODAY'S tires cost a guy 18 hours wages, and Mom and Dad are probably paying for that ....
Just part and parcel with all the OTHER increases in "the need" for material things that we've come to expect over the last generation ....
Lannis
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Guzzi should take all the information on this thread and do EXACTLY the opposite of all the advice -- the people on Wild Guzzi are not going to make Guzzi successful, and I would say they've chased more potential Guzzisti away than they've recruited.
Maybe they should hire you... ::) ;D
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Guzzi should take all the information on this thread and do EXACTLY the opposite of all the advice -- the people on Wild Guzzi are not going to make Guzzi successful, and I would say they've chased more potential Guzzisti away than they've recruited.
Maybe they should hire you... ::) ;D
Or do the opposite, since the advice came from this list? ??? ???
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Today, a young man sweating on a construction crew for $9.00 an hour will work about 750 hours to buy the average 600cc sport bike.
Part of the problem is that everyone has to have a 100 HP fully featured motorcycle these days. We considered the 350 Yamaha a full-sized, full-featured bike at the time that you could ride with pride anywhere anytime, and it would go fast (100 MPH) and get good mileage (50 MPG) and tires cost $9.00 each (4 hours wages) from JC Whitney. TODAY'S tires cost a guy 18 hours wages, and Mom and Dad are probably paying for that ....
My bud who was the GM for an all brands dealer up until recently said there was another factor - the credit crunch.
Prior to the crunch kids could buy a brand new 600ss or literbike on what was essentially unsecured revolving credit. In doing so they didn't have to insure the bike for collision, which would otherwise make the sportbike cost prohibitive.
Once the crunch hit and they would have to take standard secured loans they usually couldn't afford the $1-2k/year costs for collision insurance. Sportbike sales to younger riders at his shop all but ceased.
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A few comments;
Ducati sells more 696 Monsters than all their other bikes combined. Harley sells more Sportsters than any other model. This is a good business model for a diversified, ASPIRATIONAL product line. The demographics of Ducati and Harley owners are varied and the economic power across that spectrum is varied as well. It makes sense for both those companies to have "entry" level motorcycles that owners can upgrade and then move on to Big Twins or 1198's.
BMW is at the opposite end of the spectrum despite being a diversified, aspirational brand. Their best selling model worldwide is a 25 thousand dollar pig called the GS. BMW owner demographics must therefor be different than Harley or Ducati. This might lead one to ponder Guzzi owner demographics as well as the legitimate questions of whether the Guzzi lineup is diversified or aspirational.
Could the infamous sales rep from the rally several years ago have been right? Are the current Guzzi owners really the problem? It could be the case.
Everyone is chest thumping about what Piaggio needs to do. Scooter and lightweight motorcycle sales retreat by a much, much smaller percentage than any other market segment during an economic downturn. Worst hit are dirtbike sales(glad I don't work at KTM), then dual sport and large capacity streetbikes followed by scooters and lightweights. This has been the case ever since records have been kept tracking these statistics and are especially the case in the US over the last 5 years. Overall motorcycle sales are down 50% over the last 5 years. Some curse Piaggio as a "scooter company". I believe that is an ignorant viewpoint. Yes, they are a scooter company and the Guzzi faithful should be damned glad that they are. Otherwise Guzzi would already be dead instead of the entire forum being in an uproar over a revised Stelvio, a revised Norge, a V7 Scrambler and a possible new California.
I really don't care if Greg Field or anyone else claims I'm a Piaggio cheerleader. I don't believe that I am. I just think some folks are extremely myopic when it comes to Guzzi and that with the current global economic crisis, we ought to be damned glad Guzzi still exists in ANY form.
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John, one correction, as popular as the Sportster is (and has been) as far as I know (an I've been paying attention for more than a decade) Harley has NEVER sold more Sportsters than any other model.
In the 90s the most popular chassis was the Softail, that was replaced in the last decade or so by the Touring Chassis.
Sportsters are possibly #2 or #3 after that, it's hard to tell because Harley doesn't make public the breakdown between Vrod, Dyna and Softail (lumping them all in the "custom" category on bike production figures).
But that said, I don't think it detracts from your original point - since the introduction of the rubbermount nearly a decade ago Harley has sold 50-70k sportsters PER YEAR.
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John, one correction, as popular as the Sportster is (and has been) as far as I know (an I've been paying attention for more than a decade) Harley has NEVER sold more Sportsters than any other model.
In the 90s the most popular chassis was the Softail, that was replaced in the last decade or so by the Touring Chassis.
Sportsters are possibly #2 or #3 after that, it's hard to tell because Harley doesn't make public the breakdown between Vrod, Dyna and Softail (lumping them all in the "custom" category on bike production figures).
But that said, I don't think it detracts from your original point - since the introduction of the rubbermount nearly a decade ago Harley has sold 50-70k sportsters PER YEAR.
I thought I had seen an annual sales breakdown at one point by HD but it might have been a hallucination on my part. Point being they sell a ton of Sportsters. If they didn't, there wouldn't be an Iron, a Nightster, a Custom, etc, etc. Aren't there 5 or 6 variants of just the Sportster? Due to the difficulty in the credit markets, I can easily forsee a time in the near future when the the Sportster is the best selling Harley.
While the diminished resale strength of Big Twins has made the difference between a used Dyna or Softail closer to a new Sportster than it has ever been...it is still harder to obtain financing for used vehicles than new ones. Folks with medium credit ratings are only going to be able to finance a Sportster. As an aspirational brand with a varied earnings demographic, this is an important point which will get more important over the next two to three years when unemployment is still hovering around 8-9%.
All that brings me back to my earlier thought on what direction Piaggio might take with Guzzi. I don't believe that the Harley model will work but I am not convinced the BMW model would either. If you look to the market to ascertain the most successful motorcycle brands currently trending upward worldwide, they are BMW, Triumph and Honda. I think studying why those three are increasing market share and sales while everyone else is losing could be a worthwhile endeavor for Piaggio.
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3] Have you seen the price of a new motorcycle these days? :o
Back when I was making $2.75 an hour sweeping streets and cleaning loos, a new Yamaha R5 350 was $700 + tax, or about 250 hours work.
Today, a young man sweating on a construction crew for $9.00 an hour will work about 750 hours to buy the average 600cc sport bike.
Part of the problem is that everyone has to have a 100 HP fully featured motorcycle these days. We considered the 350 Yamaha a full-sized, full-featured bike at the time that you could ride with pride anywhere anytime, and it would go fast (100 MPH) and get good mileage (50 MPG) and tires cost $9.00 each (4 hours wages) from JC Whitney. TODAY'S tires cost a guy 18 hours wages, and Mom and Dad are probably paying for that ....
Just part and parcel with all the OTHER increases in "the need" for material things that we've come to expect over the last generation ....
Lannis
Motorcycles have gotten very very huge in the last 30 years, look at the Rocket, 2300cc, approximately 150 lbs-ft and same for HP's, and while most of the torque will be used not many will even come close to using the full HP figures, the bike is not designed for high speed but short bursts somewhere south of the ton, unless you live in the Mid-West and never have to worry about turning. I believe this need for acceleration 0-80 in 5 seconds or less has driven the market and the only explanation why 1000cc sportbikes sell, cause most 600cc sportbikes will hit 150+mph. Most Harleys will out accelerate most Ducatis within 100yrds. but really suffer at 90+mph or more. Also Americans in general and not just Tex-cans associate large with better, just ask McDonald and all my HD friends that will first ask "How big is your engine" when they see my Guzzi, when I say 1100cc they mostly respond with a ohhh and a sigh of relief at knowing my dik isn't that bigger than theirs, just looks that way.. My first motorcycle was a second (heavy) hand Gilera thumper that would eventually get up to 60mph with three on board, the emphasis here is on eventually, sooner when we hit downhills where we just coasted to save on fuel, no, ATGATT either, not even pasta bowl for helmets, just shorts and wife beater T-shirts, of course we didn't have wife's, just pets.
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On the sales figures, I've been looking for a detailed breakdown by model for more than a decade. Harley only publishes the figures you can find on their website and in their annual reports which are by chassis:
Touring
Custom (Vrod/Softail/Dyna)
Sportster
The used to lump Buell all in one category as well, though they did break out Blast figures because they had a category for under 750cc motors.
But again, I get and mostly agree with your point.
One thing though, my dealer contacts have been telling me that, contrary to our expectation that Sportster sales would be strong in these times, people continue to buy Dressers. The Touring models at EDIT - $17-24k give or take keep selling. Either the people buying them aren't as effected by the downturn, and/or they are still able to secure financing.
Though Harley resale hasn't been what is was in the 90s, it's still going pretty strong. Ironically Sportsters always depreciated a little quicker because of the same sorta "small-block stigma" we see around here (that dumb attitude that bigger is necessarily better).
As much as I call that a dumb attitude, I think it is part of what continues to stimulate sales, when someone likes their Sportster but for whatever reason wants a little more and they go back to Harley for a big-twin. This means Sportsters tend to be more available on the used market, which hurts resale a little.
Still, in the 4 Sportsters I've sold, the last one being back in 07, I've never lost more than $1-2k to depreciation (that's 2-4 years after buying new).
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The Touring models at $15-22k
I think some adjustments are necessary to keep your virginity of honesty. $17-24K based on MSRP, $20-25k based on what's on the dealer's floor, and not many RK, mostly heavily dressed tourers. Bad economy? What bad economy!
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The Touring models at $15-22k
I think some adjustments are necessary to keep your virginity of honesty. $17-24K based on MSRP, $20-25k based on what's on the dealer's floor, and not many RK, mostly heavily dressed tourers. Bad economy? What bad economy!
Ooops, I always think $15k (which is silly cause that's what I paid for my 1996 FLHRI new).
Yeah, looks like $17k lowest price.
I wouldn't say $25k, as the base price of the highest model is still shy of $24k, but not by much.
But yeah, right ballpark... and for the record you snipped it but I did say "GIVE OR TAKE" :BEER:
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You'd think this is a Harley-Davidson forum. They share nothing, but age and air cooling with Guzzi. They got there positon because they earned it by building a buying customer base and supported it.
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You'd think this is a Harley-Davidson forum. They share nothing, but age and air cooling with Guzzi. They got there positon because they earned it by building a buying customer base and supported it.
Whereas Guzzi has been blowing it by building a RIDING customer base instead. Some things, there's just no money in .....
Lannis
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You'd think this is a Harley-Davidson forum. They share nothing, but age and air cooling with Guzzi.
And:
Pushrods
Ease of maintenance
Visceralness of the riding experience
Lack of cutting edge performance (not the fastest or "best" performing bikes by subjective numbers
Rabid devotion of their owners
;-T
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You'd think this is a Harley-Davidson forum. They share nothing, but age and air cooling with Guzzi.
And:
Pushrods
Ease of maintenance
Visceralness of the riding experience
Lack of cutting edge performance (not the fastest or "best" performing bikes by subjective numbers
Rabid devotion of their owners
;-T
I think I'm the culprit for bringing up Harley in this debate. I did it to point out that an old air-cooled lump of a motor still sells. Still sells best I should say! I have no more desire for a Harley than I do for a Rotax. A 90 degree air-cooled Duc... sure, 'cept for the maintenance headache. I have a couple bikes that will go 100mph all day long if I want but have loads of character. That's as fast as I ever want to go on a bike (and have gone). Harley does not fit my sporting nature and a UJM does not fit my passion for soul. Harley and Guzzi have a lot in common (steeped in tradition as they are), 'cept Harley has the business model figured out. Figure out a business model Piaggio!
-Kevin
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I have no more desire for a Harley than I do for a Rotax.
Whatcha' got against Rotaxes? :) Some of the best engines ever made! ;-T
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Whatcha' got against Rotaxes? :) Some of the best engines ever made! ;-T
Rotax twins are well engineered to a design philosophy that I'm not interested in: They last well from new but have lots of fiddly parts and are essentially impossible to overhaul back to new tolerances without buying big chunks of new engine. The Rotax used for the Aprilias and Can-Am tricycle is a good example, bob weights and balance shafts here and there, and missing bearing inserts. Another example would be the Rotax four stroke airplane engines have to be sent to the factory for exchange/overhaul, whereas the normal US-built engines are like Guzzis, and easily field serviceable.
The Piaggio engines that replaced them in Aprilias are much the same. Air cooled Ducati and pre-Piaggio Guzzi engines are not.
You asked...
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Moto Guzzi US anounces the new Cali 1400cc, is it H2O?
http://www.motoguzzi-us.com/en_US/news/default.aspx
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And yet no mention of the new(er) engine that Cathcart apparently knows about?
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Whatcha' got against Rotaxes? :) Some of the best engines ever made! ;-T
You asked...
I asked Kevdog actually and half kidding at that. ;)
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Young riders are the vast minority and for the most part they are not buying bikes, especially new ones.
Correct, but I'm thinking of the future of motorcycling, not just Guzzi. In the short term any manufacturer can design and build bikes for the riders today. But what about tomorrow?
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Cash strapped, non-riding kids of today will become the cash rich riders of tomorrow.
;-T
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No interest in that kind of power and delivery. No issues with Rotax as an engine in general. Rotax has a niche just like Guzzi, Harley, Bimmer airheads, Ducati's, and others. Of course we could turn Guzzi into every other Rotax bike manufacturer. Boy... wouldn't that be exciting to compete against a like-mindset (well... except now it WOULD come down strictly to Guzzi's bad business model, and they'd lose the sale).
-Kevin
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Well, I’ve been following this thread with great interest, although many statements ring familiar …
So I’d like to add my angle: Never underestimate the Italians’ ability to waste an opportunity to excel in the market.
The starting point in terms of technology, design and brand name and recognition might be superior, but see what happened to Alfa Romeo and Lancia … admired car companies that should have competed with BMW, Audi, ...
Sure, there’s Gucci and Armani, but ….
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So I’d like to add my angle: Never underestimate the Italians’ ability to waste an opportunity to excel in the market.
The starting point in terms of technology, design and brand name and recognition might be superior, but see what happened to Alfa Romeo and Lancia … admired car companies that should have competed with BMW, Audi, ...
Sure, there’s Gucci and Armani, but ….
Gucci & Armani are clothing companies: no technological details to get right, pure style & construction techniques that haven't changed significantly since the Luddites were sabotaging Jacquard's mechanical looms... Astute observation, Pebra! ;-T
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I think they're more like Gucci and Armani than you think. The one bike we almost all agreed was beautiful was the MGS-01... and, well, you know the rest of the story...
They even won a race or two with the MGS-01 and bagged it. Now... how stupid was that?? I'm talking about them making a street-legal version, not THE racing version. Maybe even "kit" the racing stuff for those that want to spend $$ and take it to the track only. Guzzi had to have lost an opportunity and $$ with that race bike. It's not cheap to do R & D, build something new, pay a racer. They won for God's sake, then walked away like it never happened. Pure stupidity! That bike could have even been changed a bit and called a Lemans or Daytona (for where it won I believe). You don't win American Idle then just walk away and never produce an album. They did NOTHING!! OK... it's the engine.
-Kevin
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I think they're more like Gucci and Armani than you think. The one bike we almost all agreed was beautiful was the MGS-01... and, well, you know the rest of the story...
They even won a race or two with the MGS-01 and bagged it. Now... how stupid was that?? I'm talking about them making a street-legal version, not THE racing version. Maybe even "kit" the racing stuff for those that want to spend $$ and take it to the track only. Guzzi had to have lost an opportunity and $$ with that race bike. It's not cheap to do R & D, build something new, pay a racer. They won for God's sake, then walked away like it never happened. Pure stupidity! That bike could have even been changed a bit and called a Lemans or Daytona (for where it won I believe). You don't win American Idle then just walk away and never produce an album. They did NOTHING!! OK... it's the engine.
-Kevin
I think the MGS-01 was purposeful and imposing looking...like a Swedish axe. I wouldn't call it beautiful in the normal sense of the word.
I'm no authority on the MGS-01 but if you strip away the looks, was it really much faster than a Griso 8Valve? It also wouldn't make much sense to have 4 different shaft drive systems(CARC, new Cali, small block and an MGS-01). They were too expensive to produce and sell before the financial apocalypse... so they are definitely too expensive now.
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I'm no authority on the MGS-01 but if you strip away the looks, was it really much faster than a Griso 8Valve? It also wouldn't make much sense to have 4 different shaft drive systems(CARC, new Cali, small block and an MGS-01). They were too expensive to produce and sell before the financial apocalypse... so they are definitely too expensive now.
Yes and Yes. The MGS 1225 cc motor made something like 125 hp at the rear wheel, and had a top speed of over 160mph. It is also much lighter than a griso 1200 (which was not built for racing). That said, 6 years ago it might have been competitive in certain racing classes, but not in the big ones where it counts (superbike) today it'd have a hard time keeping up with the 600s.
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The MGS-01 was developed by Moto Guzzi prior to the Aprilia takeover. It was doomed by the takeover, and its designer likewise had his creativity for Guzzi cut short. The only important factor was "not invented by us" syndrome at Aprilia.
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The MGS-01 was developed by Moto Guzzi prior to the Aprilia takeover. It was doomed by the takeover, and its designer likewise had his creativity for Guzzi cut short. The only important factor was "not invented by us" syndrome at Aprilia.
Don't you mean Piaggio?
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The MGS-01 was developed by Moto Guzzi prior to the Aprilia takeover. It was doomed by the takeover, and its designer likewise had his creativity for Guzzi cut short. The only important factor was "not invented by us" syndrome at Aprilia.
Don't you mean Piaggio?
Yes, and I should clarify: The MGS-01 was developed by Moto Guzzi and a subcontractor prior to Aprilia taking over all *engineering*, and prior to Piaggio taking over Aprilia in its entirely (and subsequently moving all engine development to Piaggio). Aprilia was slowly transitioning Guzzi engineering and design to themselves, but there was still a Moto Guzzi engineering group that did independent work.
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I'm no authority on the MGS-01 but if you strip away the looks, was it really much faster than a Griso 8Valve? It also wouldn't make much sense to have 4 different shaft drive systems(CARC, new Cali, small block and an MGS-01). They were too expensive to produce and sell before the financial apocalypse... so they are definitely too expensive now.
Yes and Yes. The MGS 1225 cc motor made something like 125 hp at the rear wheel, and had a top speed of over 160mph. It is also much lighter than a griso 1200 (which was not built for racing). That said, 6 years ago it might have been competitive in certain racing classes, but not in the big ones where it counts (superbike) today it'd have a hard time keeping up with the 600s.
I realize it can't keep up with many 600 superbikes, but it won in the twins division and that means something. Yes it does count. We all know a 600 multi can beat any Guzzi, but not everyone wants a multi otherwise the other twins would be dead. There's something to say for making a fast twin like Guzzi did. It was great to see Guzzi race again, and the bike has gotten a lot of attention since that time. Neither Aprilia nor Piaggio capitalized on it is all I wanted to point out. Also wanted to say the engine didn't suck (keeping on topic).
-Kevin
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I'm no authority on the MGS-01 but if you strip away the looks, was it really much faster than a Griso 8Valve? It also wouldn't make much sense to have 4 different shaft drive systems(CARC, new Cali, small block and an MGS-01). They were too expensive to produce and sell before the financial apocalypse... so they are definitely too expensive now.
Yes and Yes. The MGS 1225 cc motor made something like 125 hp at the rear wheel, and had a top speed of over 160mph. It is also much lighter than a griso 1200 (which was not built for racing). That said, 6 years ago it might have been competitive in certain racing classes, but not in the big ones where it counts (superbike) today it'd have a hard time keeping up with the 600s.
I realize it can't keep up with many 600 superbikes, but it won in the twins division and that means something. Yes it does count. We all know a 600 multi can beat any Guzzi, but not everyone wants a multi otherwise the other twins would be dead. There's something to say for making a fast twin like Guzzi did. It was great to see Guzzi race again, and the bike has gotten a lot of attention since that time. Neither Aprilia nor Piaggio capitalized on it is all I wanted to point out. Also wanted to say the engine didn't suck (keeping on topic).
-Kevin
Actually the MGS-01 chews up and spits out pretty much every 600 supersport available on the market. The litre bikes it simply isn't fast enough and nor when compared to Ducati's current superbike. Its handling is significantly better than the Griso in the handling department plus its lighter with more power and obviously its a lot more expensive. The big difference is the Griso will pass emissions the MGS has no hope even with a proper muffler system fitted.
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I remain intriqued while growing ever more cautiously optimistic :BEER:
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I remain intriqued while growing ever more cautiously optimistic
Thats the same way I feel Kev, except I prefer a glass of Italian mellow red table wine ;-T
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It would be nice to get a couple of side shots of both.
We know both have an 18" front wheel, so scaling off that should do the trick.
This image is interesting, though!
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Yeah. The angle, and all.
You know, I'll bet you that the nuovo California has a longer wheelbase than the current California.
Cal Vintage is listed at 61.4-inches.
I wouldn't be surprised if the new bike was more like 64-inches...
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As I stated in an earlier response here: If we could just get people to take a ride on this bike they may never have heard of...
Here's from a thread just posted by somebody else from the Triumph board. Is it really the engine that's not selling Guzzi's??
Enjoy:
When the conversation switches to Guzzi on the TriumphRat site, we'll often move it off-forum to private emails. Here's one to me from a UK rider who owns a Griso and a Falcone. I found it pleasant to read such a positive Guzzi post:
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I'm telling you now, Bob. If you take a 1200 Griso out, you will have to buy one. Hell, I just took one for a spin out of curiosity, and out came the cheque book! There is a lot of talk about the performance at higher revs. This is a fact, and is most un-Guzzi like. It is almost like a turbo in the way the engine responds! huge fun, and highly addictive. Of course, the rest of the bike is just as good. Take one out by all means, but be prepared to lay waste to your wallet!!! All the best,
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You know, I'll bet you that the nuovo California has a longer wheelbase than the current California.
Cal Vintage is listed at 61.4-inches.
I wouldn't be surprised if the new bike was more like 64-inches...
Which basically means it would change from a Sportster wheelbase (60.1") to a Road King or Dyna wheelbase (63.5"-64.2") give or take. :BEER:
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You know, I'll bet you that the nuovo California has a longer wheelbase than the current California.
Cal Vintage is listed at 61.4-inches.
I wouldn't be surprised if the new bike was more like 64-inches...
Which basically means it would change from a Sportster wheelbase (60.1") to a Road King or Dyna wheelbase (63.5"-64.2" give or take). :BEER:
Exactly! ;-T
Which would be a good thing... For passenger comfort, leg room, etc... On a touring cruiser...
The Bassa I picked up recently has a seating position amazingly similar to a mids-equipped Sportster... The current Calis are not big bikes, which explains some of the "passenger comfort" issues people mention... A 64" wheelbase would put it into the full-size cruiser-tourer category... Right now, it's sorta like a Dodge Dakota/Durango. An in-betweener...
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Hi Greg.
Good to have you back on WG.
I do really appreciate your point of view and agree that Guzzi need something new to pay the bills (a diesel, electric, I dunno...)
Now, would you please care to clarify some things for me, that I don't quite get:
How come that guzzi is a failure compared to other iconic aircooled engines: The Harley, BMW boxer and Ducati L-twin (you can even throw the Triumph twin in, if you like).
You once stated, that Piaggio needs to learn the motorcycle business. What do the other brands do right, that Piaggio doesn't?
I think that the Guzzis are getting there in terms of performance. Now they just need to shed 100 lbs ;D
/Steffen, Denmark
Thanks. It's enjoyable to check in once in a while.
Why is Guzzi a failure compared to those other twins? It's a huge subject that would take many pages to do minimal justice, but here's a distillation to 200 proof in one paragraph:
The Guzzi transverse-V twin isn't, or wasn't, anyway, a failure. As an engine, it was simple, robust, reliable, durable, and easy to maintain. It cooled extremely well. It had great torque and decent horsepower. And it had character. Unfortunately, though, its architecture greatly compromised proper design of the rest of the motorcycle because the jugs were in the way of designing the rest of the bike for optimal rider comfort and weight distribution. The jugs are not in the way on the Harley, Ducati, and Triumph, and other engines. It is less true for the BMW engine. I know this reason doesn't resonate here and it would take many pages and diagrams to adequately explain it. If you want to understand it, put your own body on your Guzzi and picture moving yourself forward or lowering the seat height, and you might get a better idea of what a challenge it becomes and why the Guzzi engine has become a handicap in this day of low seat heights, short chassis, and forward weight distribution. Water-cooling the transverse-V engine will only make this trait worse. It's why I believe it folly to think such an engine will reverse Guzzi's fortunes. It's just my opinion, though.
The motorcycle business. Another huge subject. I'll try to get to this and the rest later.
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Hi Greg.
Good to have you back on WG.
I do really appreciate your point of view and agree that Guzzi need something new to pay the bills (a diesel, electric, I dunno...)
Now, would you please care to clarify some things for me, that I don't quite get:
How come that guzzi is a failure compared to other iconic aircooled engines: The Harley, BMW boxer and Ducati L-twin (you can even throw the Triumph twin in, if you like).
You once stated, that Piaggio needs to learn the motorcycle business. What do the other brands do right, that Piaggio doesn't?
I think that the Guzzis are getting there in terms of performance. Now they just need to shed 100 lbs ;D
/Steffen, Denmark
Thanks. It's enjoyable to check in once in a while.
Why is Guzzi a failure compared to those other twins? It's a huge subject that would take many pages to do minimal justice, but here's a distillation to 200 proof in one paragraph:
...... and why the Guzzi engine has become a handicap in this day of low seat heights, short chassis, and forward weight distribution.
That last is one part I don't understand. What is driving "low seat heights", "short chassis", and "forward weight distribution"? Those aren't necessarily good things, and aren't necessarily performance enhancers. They're just styling issues ... hang onto ANY of your old clothes long enough, and they come back into style.
Maybe "next day", those things will change .... ???
Lannis
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Since the 30's, every truly great handling, sporting mototcycle has been right around 400 lbs and had a 55 inch wheelbase. Shorter than 55 inches is too twitchy and longer than 55 requires steeper steering geometry which is also too twitchy. It doesn't matter if you're talking a BSA Goldstar, a Ducati 851 or a 2011 CBR1000RR, they all have a wheelbase right around 55 inches and weigh close to 400lbs.
To make a motorcycle turn fast, the weight needs to be pushed toward the front wheel. It also helps if it's got a low polar moment. The traditional Guzzi has neither. The shaft drive also further screws up the weight bias. Around town or on a commuter-tourer a 50/50 weight bias is great. On a sportbike it's usually more like 60/40 front to rear. Modern bikes have longer swingarms to help hook up. If you put a long swingarm on a Guzzi you end up with a 60 inch wheelbase like the Griso, Norge and Breva's CARC. You can build a 55 inch wheelbase with an L twin or a parallel twin or inline 4 or singles or V twins and still have a normal riding position that doesn't put your ass over the rear wheel. That isn't as easy to do on a Guzzi twin because your knees hit the cylinders unless you're riding an MGS-01 with rearsets that are as cruel as a GSX-R.
Some of the latter points concerning weight bias and long swingarms could be construed as "fashion" but the 400lb/55 inch wheelbase isn't. I may be crazy but it's my "golden rule" for winnowing great handling bikes from good ones.
It's why Harley has never made a truly great handling bike with any sporting pretense and why British bikes wiped the floor with the world for decades before the Japanese and Italians figured it out. Just my .02
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(http://www.dukeofperthracing.com/images/tz250-125_800.jpg)
224 lbs minus fuel.
Also 93 HP - they work pretty well.
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(http://www.dukeofperthracing.com/images/tz250-125_800.jpg)
224 lbs minus fuel.
Also 93 HP - they work pretty well.
As long as you're 4'8" and have a 16" inseam...LOL. I'd still like to try one though.
I was talking streetbikes.
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Since the 30's, every truly great handling, sporting mototcycle has been right around 400 lbs and had a 55 inch wheelbase. Shorter than 55 inches is too twitchy and longer than 55 requires steeper steering geometry which is also too twitchy. It doesn't matter if you're talking a BSA Goldstar, a Ducati 851 or a 2011 CBR1000RR, they all have a wheelbase right around 55 inches and weigh close to 400lbs.
To make a motorcycle turn fast, the weight needs to be pushed toward the front wheel. It also helps if it's got a low polar moment. The traditional Guzzi has neither. The shaft drive also further screws up the weight bias. Around town or on a commuter-tourer a 50/50 weight bias is great. On a sportbike it's usually more like 60/40 front to rear. Modern bikes have longer swingarms to help hook up. If you put a long swingarm on a Guzzi you end up with a 60 inch wheelbase like the Griso, Norge and Breva's CARC. You can build a 55 inch wheelbase with an L twin or a parallel twin or inline 4 or singles or V twins and still have a normal riding position that doesn't put your ass over the rear wheel. That isn't as easy to do on a Guzzi twin because your knees hit the cylinders unless you're riding an MGS-01 with rearsets that are as cruel as a GSX-R.
Some of the latter points concerning weight bias and long swingarms could be construed as "fashion" but the 400lb/55 inch wheelbase isn't. I may be crazy but it's my "golden rule" for winnowing great handling bikes from good ones.
It's why Harley has never made a truly great handling bike with any sporting pretense and why British bikes wiped the floor with the world for decades before the Japanese and Italians figured it out. Just my .02
I agree with you until the end.
HD's various KR and XR motorcycles were hot in thier day.
Google "Cal Rayborn Daytona" sometime. He won the '68 and '69 Daytona 200 on an HD KRTT.
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Since the 30's, every truly great handling, sporting mototcycle has been right around 400 lbs and had a 55 inch wheelbase. Shorter than 55 inches is too twitchy and longer than 55 requires steeper steering geometry which is also too twitchy. It doesn't matter if you're talking a BSA Goldstar, a Ducati 851 or a 2011 CBR1000RR, they all have a wheelbase right around 55 inches and weigh close to 400lbs.
To make a motorcycle turn fast, the weight needs to be pushed toward the front wheel. It also helps if it's got a low polar moment. The traditional Guzzi has neither. The shaft drive also further screws up the weight bias. Around town or on a commuter-tourer a 50/50 weight bias is great. On a sportbike it's usually more like 60/40 front to rear. Modern bikes have longer swingarms to help hook up. If you put a long swingarm on a Guzzi you end up with a 60 inch wheelbase like the Griso, Norge and Breva's CARC. You can build a 55 inch wheelbase with an L twin or a parallel twin or inline 4 or singles or V twins and still have a normal riding position that doesn't put your ass over the rear wheel. That isn't as easy to do on a Guzzi twin because your knees hit the cylinders unless you're riding an MGS-01 with rearsets that are as cruel as a GSX-R.
Some of the latter points concerning weight bias and long swingarms could be construed as "fashion" but the 400lb/55 inch wheelbase isn't. I may be crazy but it's my "golden rule" for winnowing great handling bikes from good ones.
It's why Harley has never made a truly great handling bike with any sporting pretense and why British bikes wiped the floor with the world for decades before the Japanese and Italians figured it out. Just my .02
I agree with you until the end.
HD's various KR and XR motorcycles were hot in thier day.
Google "Cal Rayborn Daytona" sometime. He won the '68 and '69 Daytona 200 on an HD KRTT.
A KRTT wasn't a streetbike. It wasn't a streetbike anymore than what Rossi is riding next year for Ducati in MotoGP is a streetbike. That Rayborn won Daytona had a lot more to do with Cal Rayborn than the machine he was riding. As for the KR's and XR's...they couldn't keep a BSA in sight on a crooked road. Ride a well set up A10 sometime and then ride any Sportster. There is no comparison.
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Still, in 1957, The updated K-model was renamed Sportster for a reason.
It was a pretty sporty bike in its day. No pretensions needed.
An XLCH was considered a hot bike from its intro in 1958, until the CB750 showed up a decade later...
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There are a lot of riders like me (most of the market) who don't want or need a wheelbase of less than 60" (judging from what bikes sell).
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What does the typical Guzzi 1100cc "lump" weigh and what does a typical Harley 1200 Sportster engine weigh? I guess that question should include the transmission as well but not the rest of the drivetrain. I'm just curious as to why neither marque has a reasonably light large displacement bike and I'm guessing that the frame constitutes quite a bit of the dry weight.
Buells weighed around 400lbs with thier Sportster-based engine. They were pretty sporty, too...
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Still, in 1957, The updated K-model was renamed Sportster for a reason.
It was a pretty sporty bike in its day. No pretensions needed.
An XLCH was considered a hot bike from its intro in 1958, until the CB750 showed up a decade later...
I'm going to make Kev mad by saying this but the Sportster was fast....for a Harley. It handled well...for a Harley. Ride a well set up BSA A10 and then ride an early Sportster. The Harley weighs 100lbs more and has 10 less horsepower. The only thing it had going for it was the 57" wheelbase. Early Sportsters were fast off the line compared to British bikes but they did not handle as well.
A Sportster from the late 60's or early 70's still couldn't keep up with Brit iron on winding roads because a good Bonneville had almost 50 hp, weighed 425lbs full of fuel and still had a 55 inch wheelbase.
I'm not talking about highly strung racers, going fast on a banked oval or drag racing. I'm just suggesting that the icons of "handling" in motorcycle history have usually been around 400lbs and had a 55 inch wheelbase. Have a tour through Google and check it out. Make a list of the best handling motorcycles you have ever heard of and then look up their spec's.
By the way...an MGS-01 had a 56" wheelbase and weighed 423 lbs.
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60 inches?
Imola 1972, 750 production race (i.e. street bikes), Ducati 1st and 2nd with ~ 60 inch wheelbases. The Japanese, MV and the British couldn't keep up. That lasted through about 1978 and included winning Daytona.
The optimum wheelbase has varied depending on the ratio of power to chassis technology at a given time. In 1972 they had more power than chassis, so 60 inches and a relatively good chassis worked better for going fast than anything shorter. Since then its been getting shorter again.
The "icons" of street bike handling over time include the 1970s Ducati SS's, all of which had over 60 inch wheelbase.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z6LhCKsCOjs/TJJoFmma-kI/AAAAAAAAC8Q/EbkiGn7X2zI/s1600/200miglia72-smart-spaggiari%5B2%5D.jpg)
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That last is one part I don't understand. What is driving "low seat heights", "short chassis", and "forward weight distribution"? Those aren't necessarily good things, and aren't necessarily performance enhancers. They're just styling issues ... hang onto ANY of your old clothes long enough, and they come back into style.
Maybe "next day", those things will change .... ???
Lannis
Well, it's a summary, as I said. You do not need all three on every bike. Sportbikes need short chassis and forward wieght distribution to have competitive handling. Other categories of bikes benefit from those two things, too. Short seat heights give a market advantage across the board and are expected on cruisers. These are not style issues. The first two are "make the bike work better" issues. The short seat heights is a "make the bike fit most riders" issue.
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Since the 30's, every truly great handling, sporting mototcycle has been right around 400 lbs and had a 55 inch wheelbase. Shorter than 55 inches is too twitchy and longer than 55 requires steeper steering geometry which is also too twitchy. It doesn't matter if you're talking a BSA Goldstar, a Ducati 851 or a 2011 CBR1000RR, they all have a wheelbase right around 55 inches and weigh close to 400lbs.
To make a motorcycle turn fast, the weight needs to be pushed toward the front wheel. It also helps if it's got a low polar moment. The traditional Guzzi has neither. The shaft drive also further screws up the weight bias. Around town or on a commuter-tourer a 50/50 weight bias is great. On a sportbike it's usually more like 60/40 front to rear. Modern bikes have longer swingarms to help hook up. If you put a long swingarm on a Guzzi you end up with a 60 inch wheelbase like the Griso, Norge and Breva's CARC. You can build a 55 inch wheelbase with an L twin or a parallel twin or inline 4 or singles or V twins and still have a normal riding position that doesn't put your ass over the rear wheel. That isn't as easy to do on a Guzzi twin because your knees hit the cylinders unless you're riding an MGS-01 with rearsets that are as cruel as a GSX-R.
Some of the latter points concerning weight bias and long swingarms could be construed as "fashion" but the 400lb/55 inch wheelbase isn't. I may be crazy but it's my "golden rule" for winnowing great handling bikes from good ones.
It's why Harley has never made a truly great handling bike with any sporting pretense and why British bikes wiped the floor with the world for decades before the Japanese and Italians figured it out. Just my .02
That's a very astute summation. Look at Buell. It's exactly his M.O. Same for Ducati and all the other successful makers, except Harley. Harley is able to buck the trend, for reasons that would take pages to give justice in describing.
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290 lbs, 52 inch wheelbase. The icon of handling at the other end of the spectrum from the 1970's Ducati handling icon. There are no rules, just changing circumstances.
(http://www.suzukicycles.org/photos/RGV/RGV250-Gamma/1993_RGV250_top_450.jpg)
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60 inches?
Imola 1972, 750 production race (i.e. street bikes), Ducati 1st and 2nd with ~ 60 inch wheelbases. The Japanese, MV and the British couldn't keep up. That lasted through about 1978 and included winning Daytona.
The optimum wheelbase has varied depending on the ratio of power to chassis technology at a given time. In 1972 they had more power than chassis, so 60 inches and a relatively good chassis worked better for going fast than anything shorter. Since then its been getting shorter again.
The "icons" of street bike handling over time include the 1970s Ducati SS's, all of which had over 60 inch wheelbase.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z6LhCKsCOjs/TJJoFmma-kI/AAAAAAAAC8Q/EbkiGn7X2zI/s1600/200miglia72-smart-spaggiari%5B2%5D.jpg)
A 70's Ducati SS is a very stable motorcycle. Compared to a spindly framed Japanese bike of the day they were wonderful but I would still say a Bonneville or properly shimmed Commando handled better on a curvy road. The racing Ducati's of the early 70's used a variation of a Seeley chassis and they didn't have 60" wheelbases.
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290 lbs, 52 inch wheelbase. The icon of handling at the other end of the spectrum from the 1970's Ducati handling icon. There are no rules, just changing circumstances.
(http://www.suzukicycles.org/photos/RGV/RGV250-Gamma/1993_RGV250_top_450.jpg)
Did I stutter? S_T_R_E_E_T_B_I_K_E . The RGV is a piss poor streetbike for anyone not the size of a jockey and who might want to actually use the motorcycle for travel beyond a paddock. I love TZR's and NSR's and RGV's but they're not real streetbikes. They're narrowly focused, two stroke repli-racers with brutal ergos.
Bikes with 52 inch wheelbases require too much of the rider. They're exhausting on bumpy roads. They require reflexes that normal humans simply don't have. That's why there aren't very many of them. Every rule has exceptions. That doesn't make the rule less valid.
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It does kind of fit that a guy who rides a 1200 Breva would think that anything interesting and different is worse by definition.
The Ducati 750 GT was by far the best handling street bike of its time, and won Imola. About 61 inch wheelbase. Exceptions are the rule in this case, and there's always more than one way to solve a complex problem within the bounds of current technology. These are motorcycles using an ever changing mix of technologies, not Greek temples.
In the 50s the optimum setup was the Manx Norton, and the street bikes that used its feather bed frame. That's when this particular theory started. The story was that all bikes had to replicate the feather bed Nortons or they could not handle. That meant 28 degrees rake was usually included too, as well as 400 lbs and 55 inch wheelbase. In reality it was only a slice in time, just like the 750 GT.
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Every rule has exceptions. That doesn't make the rule less valid.
Not to be snarky, but I think it does.
The more exceptions, the less valid the rule.
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LOL john, not mad, sounds reasonable.
Sportys aren't fast, they're just fast ENOUGH for me. ;)
As for weight, sure Buell showed it's not the lump alone. On Harleys it's the frame which is extra beefy for the rubbermounts. It's the overbuilt brackets at every turn. It's heavy cast wheels. It's exhaust systems covered with chrome heat shields etc.
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A 70's Ducati SS is a very stable motorcycle. Compared to a spindly framed Japanese bike of the day they were wonderful but I would still say a Bonneville or properly shimmed Commando handled better on a curvy road. The racing Ducati's of the early 70's used a variation of a Seeley chassis and they didn't have 60" wheelbases.
I owned a Norton Commando for several years, have spent several full days riding a late-model ('78) Bonneville on twisty roads, and currently own a bevel 900SS (actually for the last 18 years). Let me assure you that any comparison is totally ridiculous: you're comparing '70s race bike handling with '40s-level street bike handing.
Ducati hired Colin Seeley to build one chassis for a 500GP bike that used a unique prototype engine. It was not a success. However they used some of its features for their own chassis (chain adjusters for instance), which ALL had 60 inch wheelbases, including the race bikes.
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It does kind of fit that a guy who rides a 1200 Breva would think that anything interesting and different is worse by definition.
The Ducati 750 GT was by far the best handling street bike of its time, and won Imola. About 61 inch wheelbase. Exceptions are the rule, and there's more than one way to solve a complex problem within the bounds of current technology. These are motorcycles using an ever changing mix of technology, not Greek temples.
In the 50s the optimum setup was the Manx Norton (and the street bikes that used its feather bed frame), and that's when this particular theory started. The story was that all bikes had to replicate the feather bed Nortons or they could not handle. 28 degrees rake was often included too, as well as 400 lbs and 55 inch wheelbase.
I have no idea what my Breva has to do with this but it's just one of 30 or so motorcycles I've owned. The RGV250 makes a great streetbike for self important dwarfs with short attention spans.
A Ducati GT750 is a fricken pig that won't turn. They weighed 500lbs and were too long. It was the best handling bike in the minds of obtuse snobs but not those who had open minds and were willing to consider that the universe isn't centered around Italy. Yeah, my 1200 Sport DOES handle better than a GT but that's mostly down to better suspension components because it is also 500lbs and too damned long. Even Ducati realized in the early 80's that the 55 inch wheelbase made the bikes handle better. An 851 handles superbly. For 30 years Ducati's have handled better than other bikes because they have 55 inch wheelbases and weigh 400lbs.
Yes, the technology changes but people do not. They are still 170lbs and 5' 10" tall and they still don't fit on 230lb, 52" wheelbase motorcycles. They never will. Bikes that are designed without regard to people are just "fashion" or fads. This is an extrapolation of what I thought Greg was going to discuss when he mentioned the flawed ergos caused by the Guzzi V-Twin but I've obviously gone off on a tangent.
The Ducati 1198, the most technologically advanced machine they've ever sold has a 56 inch wheelbase and weighs around 400lbs. There may be short lived fads that tweak frame geometry but since Turner's Speed Twin, everyone keeps comeing back to the same wheelbase and weight. It has everything to do with the rider and only a very small amount with the bike itself.
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A Ducati GT750 is a fricken pig that won't turn. They weighed 500lbs and were too long.
How many miles do you have on one? How many of those on twisty roads? And what handled better in the period 1970-74? They weight 440 lbs, BTW.
I owned an 888 SP2 for a period, it was much heavier and it really was a bit of a pig. A scary fast pig if you rode it to its limits, but a pig none the less.
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A 70's Ducati SS is a very stable motorcycle. Compared to a spindly framed Japanese bike of the day they were wonderful but I would still say a Bonneville or properly shimmed Commando handled better on a curvy road. The racing Ducati's of the early 70's used a variation of a Seeley chassis and they didn't have 60" wheelbases.
I owned a Norton Commando for several years, have spent several full days riding a late-model ('78) Bonneville on twisty roads, and currently own a bevel 900SS (actually for the last 18 years). Let me assure you that any comparison is totally ridiculous: you're comparing '70s race bike handling with '40s-level street bike handing.
Ducati hired Colin Seeley to build one chassis for a 500GP bike that used a unique prototype engine. They used some of its features for their own chassis (chain adjusters for instance), but they ALL had 60 inch wheelbases, including the race bikes.
I owned a Commando Interstate for ten years. I have owned a BSA Super Rocket for 20 years and my father owned it for 20 years before that. I've owned at least 5 Bonneville's. I doubt you could assure me of anything other than your snobbery.
The Brit stuff weighed a hundred pounds less and handled better on rough, curvy roads. It may be that you live where the roads are smooth and the curves are sweeping. Why you would say the Ducati had 70's racebike handling and the Brits were 40's streetbike handling when they used similar components and the main difference was frame geometry is a little baffling.
Chain adjusters? Really? That's all they used from the Seeley frame? ::) Whatever, man. I'm all set with you tonight. You're like a 12 year old.
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A 70's Ducati SS is a very stable motorcycle. Compared to a spindly framed Japanese bike of the day they were wonderful but I would still say a Bonneville or properly shimmed Commando handled better on a curvy road. The racing Ducati's of the early 70's used a variation of a Seeley chassis and they didn't have 60" wheelbases.
I owned a Norton Commando for several years, have spent several full days riding a late-model ('78) Bonneville on twisty roads, and currently own a bevel 900SS (actually for the last 18 years). Let me assure you that any comparison is totally ridiculous: you're comparing '70s race bike handling with '40s-level street bike handing.
Ducati hired Colin Seeley to build one chassis for a 500GP bike that used a unique prototype engine. They used some of its features for their own chassis (chain adjusters for instance), but they ALL had 60 inch wheelbases, including the race bikes.
I owned a Commando Interstate for ten years. I have owned a BSA Super Rocket for 20 years and my father owned it for 20 years before that. I've owned at least 5 Bonneville's. I doubt you could assure me of anything other than your snobbery.
The Brit stuff weighed a hundred pounds less and handled better on rough, curvy roads. It may be that you live where the roads are smooth and the curves are sweeping. Why you would say the Ducati had 70's racebike handling and the Brits were 40's streetbike handling when they used similar components and the main difference was frame geometry is a little baffling.
Chain adjusters? Really? That's all they used from the Seeley frame? ::) Whatever, man. I'm all set with you tonight. You're like a 12 year old.
That's nice :D :D :D
Either an SS or GT Ducati weighs about 440 lbs, about 45 lbs more than a Bonneville. Have you ever ridden a GT on a twisty road, and compared with the British stuff?
The poor Commando was saddled with the worst frame the British ever tried to sell as a performance bike. It was out of its depth in fast riding, but OK for a touring bike.
Here's a photo and link on the Seeley-framed Ducati GP bike. I found one other chassis feature used by subsequent Ducatis other than the chain adjuster design - they also used the frame lug design for the front engine mount.
http://www.paralleltwins.com/rubrique,-,546969,3.html
(http://s1.e-monsite.com/2009/07/04/12/39819695ducati-500-gp-2act-jpg.jpg)
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I enjoyed your insight above Greg F. You too John in VT.
...
-AJ
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About 385 lbs and a longish wheelbase (not sure?). I will have to measure and am now curious. Phenomenal handling and all the weight is down low. Most folks that had them compared it to their Jap sport bike that came later and said it was at least as good handling... maybe even better. If Guzzi would only do it again. I've got some sporting Guzzi's, but this one takes the cake.
-Kevin
(http://s4.postimage.org/2seo71z6s/IMG_2369.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
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so has this been 1 page on liquid cooled motor and 7 pages of who knows more about handling motorcycles. if that's the case my votes with the brit bikes not ugly italian junk from the 70s. There that should be good for 7 more pages. ::)
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Hi Greg.
Good to have you back on WG.
I do really appreciate your point of view and agree that Guzzi need something new to pay the bills (a diesel, electric, I dunno...)
Now, would you please care to clarify some things for me, that I don't quite get:
How come that guzzi is a failure compared to other iconic aircooled engines: The Harley, BMW boxer and Ducati L-twin (you can even throw the Triumph twin in, if you like).
You once stated, that Piaggio needs to learn the motorcycle business. What do the other brands do right, that Piaggio doesn't?
I think that the Guzzis are getting there in terms of performance. Now they just need to shed 100 lbs ;D
/Steffen, Denmark
Thanks. It's enjoyable to check in once in a while.
Why is Guzzi a failure compared to those other twins? It's a huge subject that would take many pages to do minimal justice, but here's a distillation to 200 proof in one paragraph:
The Guzzi transverse-V twin isn't, or wasn't, anyway, a failure. As an engine, it was simple, robust, reliable, durable, and easy to maintain. It cooled extremely well. It had great torque and decent horsepower. And it had character. Unfortunately, though, its architecture greatly compromised proper design of the rest of the motorcycle because the jugs were in the way of designing the rest of the bike for optimal rider comfort and weight distribution. The jugs are not in the way on the Harley, Ducati, and Triumph, and other engines. It is less true for the BMW engine. I know this reason doesn't resonate here and it would take many pages and diagrams to adequately explain it. If you want to understand it, put your own body on your Guzzi and picture moving yourself forward or lowering the seat height, and you might get a better idea of what a challenge it becomes and why the Guzzi engine has become a handicap in this day of low seat heights, short chassis, and forward weight distribution. Water-cooling the transverse-V engine will only make this trait worse. It's why I believe it folly to think such an engine will reverse Guzzi's fortunes. It's just my opinion, though.
The motorcycle business. Another huge subject. I'll try to get to this and the rest later.
Thanks, Greg. I'm getting a little wiser on the subject. Looking forward to a distillation about the motorcykelindustry ;-T
But let me add this: My friends are mocking me for my love of guzzis - good natured (I mock them as well). Just today one of them, a guy who rides a BMW K1200RS (aka the comfy chair ;D ) wrote about the first time, he tried my V11 sport (my translation, he wrote in danish of course):
"The smile was for real, just like when I hook a salmon. And I was deliberately falling behind, just to get hard on the gas again. The sound and the vibrations were fantastic. And it's surprisingly easy to handle, it'll just do, what you ask it to..."
And no, he won't buy any Guzzi ;D ;D ;D
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This attitude is seem occasionally.
3 or four of my colleagues ride or has ridden bikes, from Aprilia, Ducati, HD to BMW. My BMW colleague was giving me a friendly scorn asking if I were packing enough tools to ride my goose around for more than 25km. He's 56 and packs around 160hp on his BMW 1000RR - good for him, my Lario 60hp will do, but I'll bet my hiney that he would love the Griso or the Daytona 1000 if he would ever consider riding one.
What seem a common denominator is, that they have never ever ridden a goose, they have an opinion based on hearsay.
Steffen
WHY wouldn't your friend consider a goose - embarrassment ???
He liked the ride....
Ciao
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This attitude is seem occasionally.
3 or four of my colleagues ride or has ridden bikes, from Aprilia, Ducati, HD to BMW. My BMW colleague was giving me a friendly scorn asking if I were packing enough tools to ride my goose around for more than 25km. He's 56 and packs around 160hp on his BMW 1000RR - good for him, my Lario 60hp will do, but I'll bet my hiney that he would love the Griso or the Daytona 1000 if he would ever consider riding one.
What seem a common denominator is, that they have never ever ridden a goose, they have an opinion based on hearsay.
Steffen
WHY wouldn't your friend consider a goose - embarrassment ???
He liked the ride....
Ciao
Hmm, I don't know why, my Guzzi can't win my friends hearts. I think most of them agree, that my bike is pretty gorgeous. Most that takes mine for a ride, likes it.
One of them says, that if his bike was only meant to be parked, he'd own a Guzzi. Dunno why, mine has only let me down with the cracked header...
But the lack of abs puts some of them off (and frankly, me too).
Some might worry about service, there isn't many places in Denmark.
And all agree, that Guzzis are way too expensive (and I agree).
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Funny they didn't say anything about this old lump of a motor sucks to much for them to like it! Ok... I wanted to get back on topic. It seems possible (as I stated several times before in this post) that people won't purchase because of Guzzi's business model (or lack thereof). I haven't heard a first ride report that stated these engines just don't cut it. I continue on my rant about the lack of dealerships, parts, advertising, and all the other BS that needs fixing well before this engine. Again... if people don't know about this engine... :P
-Kevin
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They should just put this prototype from 1950 into production:
(http://airheadpilot.smugmug.com/photos/289380213_xn5fK-M.jpg)
(http://airheadpilot.smugmug.com/photos/289380706_rU8Sz-M.jpg)
That flywheel might not pass but that is a minor detail...... 8)
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Funny they didn't say anything about this old lump of a motor sucks to much for them to like it! Ok... I wanted to get back on topic. It seems possible (as I stated several times before in this post) that people won't purchase because of Guzzi's business model (or lack thereof). I haven't heard a first ride report that stated these engines just don't cut it. I continue on my rant about the lack of dealerships, parts, advertising, and all the other BS that needs fixing well before this engine. Again... if people don't know about this engine... :P
-Kevin
Agreed. Guzzi has little, or no name recognition in the USA.
The first question people ask me is, "where's the nearest dealer?" They do not like my answer.
Most people want to ride something they've heard of, and something they can have the dealer maintain.
In a few metro areas around the USA, people are lucky enough to have great dealers. In most places we don't. That means most motorcycle "owners" will not be interested in the brand. Most people are "safe", they don't take "risks", even people engaging in "risky motorcycling".
Many people's purchases are tied up in thier egos. Buying something thier friends have never heard of is not appealing. Having to explain thier purchase is uncomfortable. Most people want to have praise and admiration heaped upon them when people look at thier bike. "What is it", "why'd you buy THAT?", and "Why didn't you buy _____?" are not something most people want to deal with...
The driveline layout is not something anyone has ever really asked me about. Well, a few motorcyclists have. The open driveshaft on my Sport 1100 seems real interesting to sportsbike riders for some reason... I don't think I've ever heard anything negative directed at the sideways-Vee...
Guzzi needs (good) dealers and name recognition among the current motorcycle buying pool.
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They should just put this prototype from 1950 into production:
(http://airheadpilot.smugmug.com/photos/289380213_xn5fK-M.jpg)
(http://airheadpilot.smugmug.com/photos/289380706_rU8Sz-M.jpg)
That flywheel might not pass but that is a minor detail...... 8)
Dang! Guzzi has a lot of things on which to draw inspiration. If I was in charge, and wanting something new, I'd send the engineers to the museum for an afternoon. That's pretty cool!
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Just sitting here thinking about this thread...
Seems my favorite bikes have all had:
a 58-inch wheelbase.
a 26-degree steering head.
weighed 450-500 lbs.
and, had 75-90 rwhp twins or triples.
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They should just put this prototype from 1950 into production:
(http://airheadpilot.smugmug.com/photos/289380213_xn5fK-M.jpg)
(http://airheadpilot.smugmug.com/photos/289380706_rU8Sz-M.jpg)
That flywheel might not pass but that is a minor detail...... 8)
That engine has attachment points and gear drive for a supercharger too!
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Anybody think fuel economy might be a important sales point? - how much money do you want to spend filling up your tank, each day?
$100. 200. ???
On large street motorcycles? In the USA? No!
Most people don't put more than a few thousand miles on in a year, riding mostly on sunny Saturdays and Sundays.
It's not even on the radar of most motorcycle "owners" that I know. Hell! They drive 15mpg SUVs to work everyday!
I care about it mainly because better fuel economy = fewer friggin' fuel stops on a journey. But, that's mainly because the dang fuel tanks are so small (< 5 gallons) on most bikes...
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Anybody think fuel economy might be a important sales point? - how much money do you want to spend filling up your tank, each day?
$100. 200. ???
On motorcycles? In the USA? No!
Most people don't put more than a few thousand miles on in a year, riding mostly on sunny Saturdays and Sundays.
It's not even on the radar of most motorcycle "owners" that I know. Hell! They drive 15mpg SUVs to work everyday!
+1
Gas-hog SUVs and pickups continue to outsell 40 mpg cars, so obviously to many in the USA fuel-mileage is of little concern.
Gas would have to be $20/gallon for it to cost $100 to fill the Ambo's tank. ;)
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That WC 120 degree V twin looks a lot like the VA10 that never made it.
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Just sitting here thinking about this thread...
Seems my favorite bikes have all had:
a 58-inch wheelbase.
a 26-degree steering head.
weighed 450-500 lbs.
and, had 75-90 rwhp twins or triples.
I agree that a 58 inch wheelbase (like many Guzzis) generally makes for a nice stable bike with good steering feel. Also that 80-90 RWHP is about enough. But in my experience, each bike varies, its not paint by the numbers...
The reason the long wheelbase bevel 750 Ducati worked better than its contemporary competition was that the L-twin engine gave the bike a very low CG along with the 60 inch spread between axles. Within the limits of frame technology at that time, the long wheelbase was good because it increased stability to almost modern levels. In combination with the low CG that gave reasonably light steering (especially with touring bars), the bike was widely regarded as being the best handling compromise available at that time. The Italians also used very heavy wall thickness tubing in the 70s, and it helped stiffness without adding a huge amount of weight.
I think less weight is almost always better as long as the wheels etc are lightened too.
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{snippity}
Gas-hog SUVs and pickups continue to outsell 40 mpg cars, so obviously to many in the USA fuel-mileage is of little concern.
{snip}
I don't think that's obvious unless your argument is that a 40mpg car does the same job as a pickup truck and people choose the pickup anyway. For example, I would love to have an awd minivan that got 40 mpg and hauled a ton, or a 40mpg car that did what my minivan does. So for me it's not a matter of being unconcerned about gas mileage, it's a matter of having the right tool for the job.
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How about a different way of cooling? Solid state heat pipe or something?
+1
Those solid-state coolers (theoretical, no doubt) on the Terblanche show-bikes were very exciting. It would be nice if Guzzi could do something innovative and different.
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{snippity}
Gas-hog SUVs and pickups continue to outsell 40 mpg cars, so obviously to many in the USA fuel-mileage is of little concern.
{snip}
I don't think that's obvious unless your argument is that a 40mpg car does the same job as a pickup truck and people choose the pickup anyway. For example, I would love to have an awd minivan that got 40 mpg and hauled a ton, or a 40mpg car that did what my minivan does. So for me it's not a matter of being unconcerned about gas mileage, it's a matter of having the right tool for the job.
Actually I know a number of guys who use trucks for work - MOST of them have been smart to get powerful and fuel efficient diesels.
The rest (and overwhelming majority) of the guzzling trucks I see are SUVs that ARE just taking a place of a car - whether that's a Ford Expedition, Chevy Suburban or BMW X3 (which gets as lousy mileage).
MOST of the people I know with those vehicles don't tow anything with it, and move ONE child around from school to soccer practice in it.
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{snippity}
Gas-hog SUVs and pickups continue to outsell 40 mpg cars, so obviously to many in the USA fuel-mileage is of little concern.
{snip}
I don't think that's obvious unless your argument is that a 40mpg car does the same job as a pickup truck and people choose the pickup anyway. For example, I would love to have an awd minivan that got 40 mpg and hauled a ton, or a 40mpg car that did what my minivan does. So for me it's not a matter of being unconcerned about gas mileage, it's a matter of having the right tool for the job.
There's a limited number of people that buy a vehicle that will haul a ton or that has a big motor because they need one for their work. Some people do, and if they need one, they buy one, and charge the fuel cost off to their customers as part of the service or product they provide.
MOST people that are driving oversize vehicles with big motors do it because they LIKE oversize vehicles with big motors. They're not doing anything that "requires" it, they just like the feel of it and the notion that if they HAD to do something with it, they could. AND they can afford it. No one else is paying for it but them, but they don't mind. They won't mind even with $5 gas, it's still chicken feed to the gal who can afford a Trail Blazer or Expedition or Escalade or F450.
You can see that any day on any daily commute, or just poll your neighbors. Well, maybe not YOUR neighbors up there in the Land of the Midnight Sun, but the other 300 million down here ... :)
Lannis
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It's a different reality down there then. I do miss my '70 Corolla with the 12" wheels, 1-liter engine and 5-speed. It just didn't pull my boat or cable spools so good.
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I have a pick up because I cannot think of any other way to take my bike and my boat on a vacation. It has 4WD but the only time I use it is at the boat ramp.
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They should just put this prototype from 1950 into production:
(http://airheadpilot.smugmug.com/photos/289380213_xn5fK-M.jpg)
(http://airheadpilot.smugmug.com/photos/289380706_rU8Sz-M.jpg)
That flywheel might not pass but that is a minor detail...... 8)
That engine has attachment points and gear drive for a supercharger too!
As that post showed, Guzzi could pick virtually any engine configuration and still be within the bounds of its heritage. Why not think outside the transverse-V box?
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Greg, heritage doesn't mean you tried it once, it means you're KNOWN for it, that you've used it for decades...
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Greg, heritage doesn't mean you tried it once, it means you're KNOWN for it, that you've used it for decades...
I believe you are confusing public image with heritage. Heritage runs way deeper and outlives people and their memories. Nevertheless, even if longitudinal-V twins and triples and fours and singles and eights weren't part of Guzzi's heritage, there's no reason to not consider these architectures for future Guzzi motors, given that there really is no positive mass-market perception of Guzzi at all.
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Greg, heritage doesn't mean you tried it once, it means you're KNOWN for it, that you've used it for decades...
I believe you are confusing public image with heritage. Heritage runs way deeper and outlives people and their memories. Nevertheless, even if longitudinal-V twins and triples and fours and singles and eights weren't part of Guzzi's heritage, there's no reason to not consider these architectures for future Guzzi motors, given that there really is no positive mass-market perception of Guzzi at all.
No, not confusing anything.
Just cause someone is 1/50 American Indian doesn't make that a significant part of his heritage.
Just cause a company experimented with something, but never really produced any products of a given configuration doesn't make it an significant part of it's heritage.
That's where I'm going with this.
The significance of the design as related to heritage.
AND FOR THE RECORD, you know I've never said Guzzi can't start a new branch when it comes to the heritage of their motors.
But to build say something in an all new configuration and try to point a lineage figure to a related design which was experimented with 50 years ago would be disingenuous.
IF ANYTHING I would say an all new engine design could be loosely tied to Guzzis "Hertigage of experimenting with/trying something new".
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Just cause someone is 1/50 American Indian doesn't make that a significant part of his heritage.
But, Greg is a proud native American, nonetheless...
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Just cause someone is 1/50 American Indian doesn't make that a significant part of his heritage.
But, Greg is a proud native American, nonetheless...
So am I...
...I was BORN here...
My dad wasn't...
:BEER:
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(http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/yelrotflmao.gif)
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Just cause someone is 1/50 American Indian doesn't make that a significant part of his heritage.
Depends on the individual.
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Greg, heritage doesn't mean you tried it once, it means you're KNOWN for it, that you've used it for decades...
I believe you are confusing public image with heritage. Heritage runs way deeper and outlives people and their memories. Nevertheless, even if longitudinal-V twins and triples and fours and singles and eights weren't part of Guzzi's heritage, there's no reason to not consider these architectures for future Guzzi motors, given that there really is no positive mass-market perception of Guzzi at all.
No, not confusing anything.
Just cause someone is 1/50 American Indian doesn't make that a significant part of his heritage.
Just cause a company experimented with something, but never really produced any products of a given configuration doesn't make it an significant part of it's heritage.
That's where I'm going with this.
The significance of the design as related to heritage.
AND FOR THE RECORD, you know I've never said Guzzi can't start a new branch when it comes to the heritage of their motors.
But to build say something in an all new configuration and try to point a lineage figure to a related design which was experimented with 50 years ago would be disingenuous.
IF ANYTHING I would say an all new engine design could be loosely tied to Guzzis "Hertigage of experimenting with/trying something new".
Kev:
Guzzi raced longitudinal-V twins. I'm pretty sure they won the Isle of Man TT with one. They are as much a part of Guzzi's heritage as the V8 is. Look how small a part of Guzzi's years in business that was—built five or six, only used on-track for 2 years, no championships—yet how big a part of Guzzi's heritage it is.
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Just cause someone is 1/50 American Indian doesn't make that a significant part of his heritage.
Depends on the individual.
No it doesn't, not mathematically or statistically.
Now if someone puts undue weight or meaning on it, well that's fine personally. Juat don't try to sell it to others, cause then it would be disingenuous.
Greg, 5-6 years and a number of victories I suppose IS part of their heritage, but I wouldn't overplay it. But yes a part.
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Kev:
Guzzi raced longitudinal-V twins. I'm pretty sure they won the Isle of Man TT with one. They are as much a part of Guzzi's heritage as the V8 is. Look how small a part of Guzzi's years in business that was—built five or six, only used on-track for 2 years, no championships—yet how big a part of Guzzi's heritage it is.
1933-1951 500cc GP bike, the Bicilindrica was a top competitor for 18 years!
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/1947MotoGuzzi1/439555001_jXTZ2-O.jpg)
(http://www.classic-motorbikes.com/scripts/show_image.asp?ImageID=176650&width=640)
Some info:
The 500 Guzzi twin-cylinder had a brilliant career for 18 years, from 1933 to 1951, with its Y-shaped, 120° engine. Stanley Woods rode it to victory in the 1935 Tourist Trophy. The 500 Bicilindrica was first driven in 1933, and the Guzzi brand decided to retire it from racing in 1951, even though it probably still had potential to be exploited on some racetracks.
The 500 Guzzi twin-cylinder was born from the genius mind of Carlo Guzzi, after he recognized the 1930 supercharged flat 4 engine was insufficient. Carlo only put together two engines from the famous 250 Single-shaft. This machine quickly started to race against its competitors of the time.
The first prototype had a displacement of 493.7 cc, a 68mm bore and 68mm stroke with a 8.5:1 compression ratio and developed 43.35 wheel horsepower at 7,000 rpm. The engine ran on a mixture of gasoline, alcohol and benzol, which was permitted at the time. During its first timed tests in Monza, Moretti drove it to a top speed of 186 km/h. Soon after, it reached 190 km/h, then 200 km/h in its latest developments which competed in 1950 and 1951. The Bicilindrica weighed 160 kg, and the driving had been greatly facilitated through the adoption of a rear suspension.
The first prototype has a solid frame, but the suspension was quickly adopted. Its efficiency was demonstrated with Woods’ victory in the 1935 Tourist trophy.
This machine had a lot of qualities: low center of gravity, lightweight, good handling, not to mention again its suspensions.
The Bicilindrica won its first race on December 10, 1933 at the Via Caracciola in Naples where Moretti, aged 31 at the time, opened this great machine’s long list of victories.
In 1950, a new fork was adopted. It became typical of 1950s Moto Guzzi models as it was even mounted on the 8-cylinder. The Bicilindrica was also an early adopter of useful styling elements, making this bike praised for its design, even today.
The glorious twin-cylinder lead Bertacchini to victory in the 1948 500 Italian championship and Lorenzetti in 1949.
It was also victorious in Anderson’s hands, and even surprised Lorenzetti himself as he won the Senigallia Grand Prix on August 5, 1951, beating Pagani and Milani’s 4-cylinder Gileras, Ray Amm’s Norton and Liberati’s Gilera Saturno.
At the end of the 1951 season, Moto Guzzi abandoned the 500 Bicilindrica to go worth with the development of other models, especially straight-4 powered ones.
from here: http://www.classic-motorbikes.com/stock.asp?Ref=FC70&Lang=it
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Well, that's heritage, but they'd have to differentiate it from Ducati.
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Well, that's heritage, but they'd have to differentiate it from Ducati.
Why? The MG engine predates the Ducati twin and it is 120 degree's as opposed to the 90 degree Ducati.
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At the end of the 1951 season, Moto Guzzi abandoned the 500 Bicilindrica to go worth with the development of other models, especially straight-4 powered ones.
Excellent post, R59.
The last sentence brings to mind what happened when Moto Guzzi gave up their storied air-cooled V-twin and went in another direction, with an engine designed by others! It was a disaster... when it happened in the early-1950s ;D ;D ;D
The inline four was designed by an outside consultant named Carlo Gianini. He was a car guy, and his design didn't work terribly well as a racer. I think they won a single race with it.
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Well, that's heritage, but they'd have to differentiate it from Ducati.
Why? The MG engine predates the Ducati twin and it is 120 degree's as opposed to the 90 degree Ducati.
Predates means nothing when in the half century later ducati claimed it for their own in the world market.
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Well, that's heritage, but they'd have to differentiate it from Ducati.
Why? The MG engine predates the Ducati twin and it is 120 degree's as opposed to the 90 degree Ducati.
Predates means nothing when in the half century later ducati claimed it for their own in the world market.
Only Guzzi people might know, but hell, we're the only people that know about Guzzi! Kevin's right... word has it Ducati has had a similar design for a few more recent years. :P
-Kevin
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How about a nice, modern lay-down air cooled triple - around 1000cc? Same layout as the Falcone x3. Nice long wheelbase like a Ducati. Nice low centre of gravity. Unique layout in keeping with Guzzi tradition (or weirdness, depending on your point of view). I'd go for a bacon slicer as well, but I doubt the buying public would.
Triples have a certain acceptance in the market place, so it wouldn't be too radical............ .
Nick
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Maybe Guzzi could buy the rights to the Feuling motor?
(http://image.motorcyclecruiser.com/f/8539409+w750+st0/lg+2000_feuling_w3+engine_right_view.jpg)
-AJ
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Only 3,000 people a year buy a new Guzzi. If Piaggio decided they were going to sell Guzzi's with inline 4's, how many people would know any different? Most of the people who really care about Guzzi history don't buy new Guzzi's. They are still trying to wear out Eldorado's they bought 30 years ago. The other two million people who buy a bike each year have never heard of Guzzi. They have no idea what a "Guzzi" is supposed to be.
Piaggio can introduce anything they like because the potential gains would far outweigh the loss from old-time Guzzi owners. I'm not suggesting that is what they should do, I am just pointing out that there are maybe 100 active posters on this forum and they probably represent a large portion of the US Guzzi demographic. That has to change if the brand is going to survive. You can't build a business around a bunch of negative, old men.
I think the new Cali looks great and I honestly don't care if it's liquid cooled or not. I also think the new Norge and Stelvio are also great. While liquid cooling seems to have a stigma attached by some Guzzi riders, the vast majority of motorcyclists don't care if a bike has a radiator as long as it's fun to ride, doesn't break all the time, they can afford it and there is a decent dealer nearby.
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The problem with an L4 is the other half dozen or so companies that already make them.
You gotta give people a reason to buy a Guzzi.
So WHAT is going to be different or special.
As for this BB not 1% of US owners post here, judging from rallyes and from what I see at local bike events.
As for water cooling at least 50% of the US market chooses to avoid it currently.
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Oh crap...
I just came across spy photos of a water cooled boxer, and this rendering.
http://solomoto.es/sites/default/files/imagenes/articulos/2011-02/bmw-motor-boxer-concept.jpg
That does speak to the why's of keeping an air cooled layout even after water cooling is introduced.
http://solomoto.es/sites/default/files/imagenes/articulos/2011-02/bmw-motor-boxer-agua-foto-espia-bu-01.jpg
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True enough Kev. But does that mean Guzzi could or should attack Harley market share? I'm not so sure that many of those who buy Harley's care that they are air-cooled so much as they just want a "Harley". Buying a Harley has become a sign that you've "made it" among many working class folks the same way buying a Cadillac used to mean the same thing for a previous generation. It goes back to the whole aspirational brand thing we were dicussing earlier. The fact the engines are air-cooled isn't really a priority in the buying decision. Is it? I know it is for you but you probably know a lot more about motorcycles than most people who buy Harley's.
Right now, buying a Guzzi means you're a socialist luddite judging from this forum ;)
Maybe I have had too much Kool-Aid but I think the new Cali, Scrambler, Stelvio and Norge GT are pretty exciting. If it turns out the Cali is watercooled, it won't dim my enthusiasm one bit.
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Only 3,000 people a year buy a new Guzzi. If Piaggio decided they were going to sell Guzzi's with inline 4's, how many people would know any different? Most of the people who really care about Guzzi history don't buy new Guzzi's. They are still trying to wear out Eldorado's they bought 30 years ago. The other two million people who buy a bike each year have never heard of Guzzi. They have no idea what a "Guzzi" is supposed to be.
Piaggio can introduce anything they like because the potential gains would far outweigh the loss from old-time Guzzi owners. I'm not suggesting that is what they should do, I am just pointing out that there are maybe 100 active posters on this forum and they probably represent a large portion of the US Guzzi demographic. That has to change if the brand is going to survive. You can't build a business around a bunch of negative, old men.
I'm puzzled. When I pointed out all these things pages ago, you seemed to dispute the truth of it. What changed?
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Only 3,000 people a year buy a new Guzzi. If Piaggio decided they were going to sell Guzzi's with inline 4's, how many people would know any different? Most of the people who really care about Guzzi history don't buy new Guzzi's. They are still trying to wear out Eldorado's they bought 30 years ago. The other two million people who buy a bike each year have never heard of Guzzi. They have no idea what a "Guzzi" is supposed to be.
Piaggio can introduce anything they like because the potential gains would far outweigh the loss from old-time Guzzi owners. I'm not suggesting that is what they should do, I am just pointing out that there are maybe 100 active posters on this forum and they probably represent a large portion of the US Guzzi demographic. That has to change if the brand is going to survive. You can't build a business around a bunch of negative, old men.
I think the new Cali looks great and I honestly don't care if it's liquid cooled or not. I also think the new Norge and Stelvio are also great. While liquid cooling seems to have a stigma attached by some Guzzi riders, the vast majority of motorcyclists don't care if a bike has a radiator as long as it's fun to ride, doesn't break all the time, they can afford it and there is a decent dealer nearby.
John,
I think what you're really just trying to say is expose the marque. New engine or old engine, simply expose it (for the first time) in front of the public. I say this takes an incredible amount of money to do, since Piaggio also needs to get their house in order to get their business model right. I think we can all agree that exposing a company with no dealers, parts supply, etc. is exposing all the wrong things and will fail no doubt. So... instead of working on a whole new engine ($$$), lets have them expose what they have since people don't seem to be running from this lump, but rather the sum of the parts. One thing at a time. An engine won't fix the rest of the issues I guarantee. Do you guys really think an engine will solve their business model?
-Kevin
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Kev:
Guzzi raced longitudinal-V twins. I'm pretty sure they won the Isle of Man TT with one. They are as much a part of Guzzi's heritage as the V8 is. Look how small a part of Guzzi's years in business that was—built five or six, only used on-track for 2 years, no championships—yet how big a part of Guzzi's heritage it is.
1933-1951 500cc GP bike, the Bicilindrica was a top competitor for 18 years!
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/1947MotoGuzzi1/439555001_jXTZ2-O.jpg)
(http://www.classic-motorbikes.com/scripts/show_image.asp?ImageID=176650&width=640)
from here: http://www.classic-motorbikes.com/stock.asp?Ref=FC70&Lang=it
I clicked on the link and.....COOL!!! Someone made this replica. That's right. The bike in the above picture is a replica and could be (already) bought. Any idea what one would cost?
(http://s2.postimage.org/1wrermcbo/Bicylindrica_left.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1wrermcbo/)
The 500 Moto Guzzi Bicilindrica Racer we are proud to offer for sale today is an exact replica of the 1935 model. It was built in Italy in 1995. It has not been driven ever since, so it is brand new. It is available in Northern Italy. This Moto Guzzi is an exceptional opportunity to enter classic motoring events riding a legend.
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I clicked on the link and.....COOL!!! Someone made this replica. That's right. The bike in the above picture is a replica and could be (already) bought. Any idea what one would cost?
(http://s2.postimage.org/1wrermcbo/Bicylindrica_left.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1wrermcbo/)
The 500 Moto Guzzi Bicilindrica Racer we are proud to offer for sale today is an exact replica of the 1935 model. It was built in Italy in 1995. It has not been driven ever since, so it is brand new. It is available in Northern Italy. This Moto Guzzi is an exceptional opportunity to enter classic motoring events riding a legend.
The "Kay Replica" Gilera fours were in the $80,000 range ... looks to me like most hand-built replicas fall into that general area. When you look at what that gets the builder as an hourly rate, they're a bargain at that.
It'll sell, I'll bet. Look at the guys buying hot rods at the Barrett-Jackson auctions ... successful contractors, business owners, stockbrokers, it's no huge deal for them to drop $125,000 on a hot rodded Vette or something, one of them will want a one-off like this!
Lannis
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You're right. I wonder if Jay Leno would pop for one?
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Well, that's heritage, but they'd have to differentiate it from Ducati.
Why? The MG engine predates the Ducati twin and it is 120 degree's as opposed to the 90 degree Ducati.
Predates means nothing when in the half century later ducati claimed it for their own in the world market.
Madison Ave. and of course a decent engine can have an impact on that short history. Victory and an enthusiastic metric cruiser crowd seems to be doing OK against HD's.
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Only 3,000 people a year buy a new Guzzi. If Piaggio decided they were going to sell Guzzi's with inline 4's, how many people would know any different? Most of the people who really care about Guzzi history don't buy new Guzzi's. They are still trying to wear out Eldorado's they bought 30 years ago. The other two million people who buy a bike each year have never heard of Guzzi. They have no idea what a "Guzzi" is supposed to be.
Piaggio can introduce anything they like because the potential gains would far outweigh the loss from old-time Guzzi owners. I'm not suggesting that is what they should do, I am just pointing out that there are maybe 100 active posters on this forum and they probably represent a large portion of the US Guzzi demographic. That has to change if the brand is going to survive. You can't build a business around a bunch of negative, old men.
I'm puzzled. When I pointed out all these things pages ago, you seemed to dispute the truth of it. What changed?
I agreed with you on this being an opportunity to introduce a new engine architecture. In fact, I think what I wrote was that I "whole-heartedly agree with you". I just disagreed regarding Piaggio's approach to building the business. I also disagree with those who think the dealer network is the biggest problem. I think the product is the most important part of the puzzle. Either make it desirable or make another product that is. A dealer can't create desire....that has to come from the product itself. I can only speak for myself but I really don't care if the new Cali is water cooled or not. I want one.
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Victory might sell as few bikes a year as Guzzi...
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http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/bmws-liquidcooled-boxer-spotted-wild/
Wet Beemers Boxers too.
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Victory might sell as few bikes a year as Guzzi...
Really?
On-road vehicle sales, consisting primarily of Victory Motorcycles, generated $81.6 million in sales for Polaris in 2010, an increase from $52.8 million reported in 2009. The 2010 fiscal year marked the first year-on-year sales increase for Victory since 2007 and the largest percentage increase since a 70% rise reported in 2003.
2011 Victory Cross Country
Though North American heavyweight cruiser and touring demand is low, Polaris says consumer demand for the Victory Cross Country remains high.
In the face of flagging North American motorcycle sales, Victory increased both sales and market share in 2010. Though industry-wide demand for heavyweight cruiser and touring motorcycles was low, Polaris reports strong demand for its Cross Country and Cross Roads models.
The fourth quarter represented the fifth consecutive quarter of year-on-year sales and market share gains. Victory sales totaled $20.6 million in the quarter ended Dec. 31, 2010, an increase of 8% from the same quarter of 2009. Unit sales increased 15% in the fourth quarter with North American dealers reporting a 30% decline in Victory Motorcycles inventory.
Victory High-Ball
Polaris is hoping to attract younger riders looking for a factory custom look with the new Victory High-Ball.
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Wonder what "primarily" actually means in context because $81.6M suggests
40-50k units. EDIT - Thanks Bob - I put an extra zero in my calculations - so edit - sounds like I was absolutely correct, Victory MIGHT sell 4-5k bikes/year.
That puts them solidly in Guzzi territory, and no where near even other small manufacturers like Ducati.
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I have a friend, who was for more than a decade and until quite recently the GM of the all brands side of a large dealership. He'd receive monthly reports from Triumph regarding new motorcycle sales based on registrations in his "territory" as defined by Triumph.
A snapshot from last fall.
I thought I'd share some intel with you folks.
I receive, on a monthly basis, a report that indicates how well we're doing with Triumph. It speaks to us as a dealer, and our PMA (Primary Market Area), which is a rather large geographical area. It also speaks to all registrations in that PMA, regardless of brand.
We frankly sell outside of our PMA, but within that PMA, this report regarding September, 2010, shows the following (year to date):
In our PMA, 881 motorcycles were sold (on-road).
Of those, 465 were Harleys.
116 were Yamaha.
112 were Kawasaki.
101 were Honda.
37 were Suzuki.
17 were Triumph.
12 were Can-Am.
9 were BMW.
8 were Victory.
2 were Ducati.
KTM and Piaggio sold one unit each.
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Anybody think fuel economy might be a important sales point? - how much money do you want to spend filling up your tank, each day?
$100. 200. ???
On large street motorcycles? In the USA? No!
Most people don't put more than a few thousand miles on in a year, riding mostly on sunny Saturdays and Sundays.
It's not even on the radar of most motorcycle "owners" that I know. Hell! They drive 15mpg SUVs to work everyday!
I care about it mainly because better fuel economy = fewer friggin' fuel stops on a journey. But, that's mainly because the dang fuel tanks are so small (< 5 gallons) on most bikes...
Knock it off with this small tanks obsession, if you keep it up I will need therapy. Buy a 2011 Stelvio or GSA and be forever happy.
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They should just put this prototype from 1950 into production:
(http://airheadpilot.smugmug.com/photos/289380213_xn5fK-M.jpg)
Yeah, sure, if they wanted a new bike w/ a wheelbase even longer than the Griso's... ::)
Didn't this thread just go thru a couple pages of bickering about how Guzzi needs to build something w/ a shorter wheelbase & more wt over the front wheel but w/o screwing the rider ergos? ;)
In other news, someone was quibbling w/ Greg Field over what Guzzi's "heritage" was, and confused the long-lifespan of the Carcano V2 with the company heritage, so maybe it's time to set the matter straight:
Guzzi's heritage is of innovation, esp. wrt engine design. They innovatively went with a longitudinal V-twin at a time when only one other company had done so w/ limited success [Indian's model 841 built for wartime U.S. military contract, canceled due to Willy's success w/ the Jeep (but arguably superior to Harley's XA100 knockoff of the Nazi BMW flat twin built at the same time for the same requirements)] that met with gratifying success, but not before trying virtually every other format: singles, transverse V2s, I3s, I4s, V8s. Don't think they've ever tried a 6cyl, which has some supposed merits [per Ricardo, 1921], but the essence of motorcycling is a combination of superior power/wt ratio with simplicity: for this reason, I think singles, twins & triples are more inherently suited to biking than machines of greater output [from a higher cylinder count] that comes from greater complexity [from a higher cylinder count. Except for the Suzuki RE5 & Norton rotaries, or Leno's jetbike: they're just complex... ;D]
So, if Piaggio wants to rejuvenate Guzzi's image to lure a younger demographic [not necessarily a youth demographic, just younger than us old diehards! :D], they've got to make something that is not a variation on the Carcano [big block] or Tonti [small block] shaft-driven longitudinal v-twin.
Given that Piaggio won't want to spend any more than they absolutely have to in order to accomplish this, it behooves them to base a new Guzzi design upon an existing powerplant, that will not necessarily cannibalize sales of any of their existing product line. Ergo, a mid-displacement single cyl. motorcycle derived from the motor from one of their maxi-scooters [1] can easily be shoehorned into a Tonti frame [2], given modern wheel sizes, an enclosed chain or belt drive [3], (possibly a CVT?), homologated & brought to market in under a year[4].
$50k development money and a couple of months of design & testing, and Piaggio could have a whole new bike for their oldest marque. Easy-peasy... But nobody is going to listen.
Hey, don't think any of this is new for me: 10 years ago I proposed a similar Q&D solution to a problem here at work, would have cost us $10k tops to move a service desk to a better area & saved us more than that the 1st year alone & every year since, & they spent the next 8 years saying "No, no: do a proposal for a complete remodel of the area you want to move that service point to, blah blah blah" sending it back over & over again, stalling us... until the budget got slashed and they went with the original proposal, having lost the opportunity to pay for the "grand remodel" with all the money they could have saved in the intervening years! Frickin' bureaucrats... :(
I predict Piaggio won't perform any different! ;-T
[1] Interesting that a "maxi" scooter motor is only a "mid-displacement" bike motor, innit? ;)
[2] Hey, why mess w/ tradition? It is almost as famous as the Featherbed chassis & besides, it's still a good design & all the jigs & fixturing are there to use w/ minor adaptation from the s-b lineup. Some thinner-wall tubing to add lightness & "hey Presto!" you're done...
[3] Guzzi's touring tradition here...
[4] Largely due to using an engine that has already passed all the bureaucratic hurdles.
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Given that Piaggio won't want to spend any more than they absolutely have to in order to accomplish this, it behooves them to base a new Guzzi design upon an existing powerplant, that will not necessarily cannibalize sales of any of their existing product line. Ergo, a mid-displacement single cyl. motorcycle derived from the motor from one of their maxi-scooters [1] can easily be shoehorned into a Tonti frame [2], given modern wheel sizes, an enclosed chain or belt drive [3], (possibly a CVT?), homologated & brought to market in under a year[4].
$50k development money and a couple of months of design & testing, and Piaggio could have a whole new bike for their oldest marque. Easy-peasy... But nobody is going to listen.
We discussed that not too long ago:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=39576
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i think the V7C would make perfect platform for a new single, a new Falcone. A comuter bike between the maxi scooter and small twin. It would be it's own niche.
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Well I know V7 means twin. :) it's also a Tonti frame. I think the Falcone was a Tonti frame also. So, stick a single in the V7C frame and call it a Falcone.
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Anybody think fuel economy might be a important sales point? - how much money do you want to spend filling up your tank, each day?
$100. 200. ???
On large street motorcycles? In the USA? No!
Most people don't put more than a few thousand miles on in a year, riding mostly on sunny Saturdays and Sundays.
It's not even on the radar of most motorcycle "owners" that I know. Hell! They drive 15mpg SUVs to work everyday!
I care about it mainly because better fuel economy = fewer friggin' fuel stops on a journey. But, that's mainly because the dang fuel tanks are so small (< 5 gallons) on most bikes...
Knock it off with this small tanks obsession, if you keep it up I will need therapy. Buy a 2011 Stelvio or GSA and be forever happy.
Oh, I'm so wanting a 2012 (US) Stelvio with the 32L tank! Just to piss people off, I think I need the Stucci AUX tank, too! 11-gallons on board? Hell, yeah! ;D
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Well I know V7 means twin. :) it's also a Tonti frame. I think the Falcone was a Tonti frame also. So, stick a single in the V7C frame and call it a Falcone.
Good idea!
(FWIW, the Nuovo Falcone used the Tonti)
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Piaggio can introduce anything they like because the potential gains would far outweigh the loss from old-time Guzzi owners. I'm not suggesting that is what they should do, I am just pointing out that there are maybe 100 active posters on this forum and they probably represent a large portion of the US Guzzi demographic. That has to change if the brand is going to survive. You can't build a business around a bunch of negative, old men.
This is a good point. I'd imagine mid-50s with two Guzzis in the garage is a good average.
40-60 being the other sides of the bell curve. Some owners with 3+ bikes in the garage.
This is something PGA is up against here in the USA. Most of the buyers are current customers. They need to find a way to keep reselling to the same few thousand people each year.
I'm about to turn 44 and currently have 3 in the garage. If things work out over the next year, or so, a Stelvio v1.2 will be in the garage as well...
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Anyone seen these
http://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle_news/future_bikes_spy_shots/11q1/moto_guzzi_-_future_bikes_spy_shots?zeta_mid=HFM2_295579&zeta_rid=35338016
(http://www.cycleworld.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/motorcycle_news/spy_shots/all/moto_guzzi_-_future_bikes_spy_shots/3610651-1-eng-US/moto_guzzi_-_future_bikes_spy_shots_image_575_346.jpg)
(http://www.cycleworld.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/in-text/moto_guzzi_v7_scrambler/3610602-2-eng-US/moto_guzzi_v7_scrambler.jpg)
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No never heard of em...
:D
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No never heard of em...
Right! ;-T
:D
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Wow, what's that! :BEER:
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New HO scale Guzzis.
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Was just reading about these on the M-G website:
http://www.motoguzzi-us.com/en_US/news/moto_guzzi_two_formidable_prototypes.aspx
The Scrambler is kinda cool. Wonder if they'll ever be built or come stateside?
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For those still catching up with last month... :-* ;) :D :BEER:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43132.0
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43242.0
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43239.0
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43255.0
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43094.0
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43242.0
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I like both of those designs. The scrambler in particular.
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the cali makes me horny. any guess on the weight?? my stone weighs about 550. if this new one is no heavier i could be interested. woul d like to see it with a bag and screen option! looking forward to see some specs. are there any yet??
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I just got this from Motorcycle Classics regarding the new 1400. Basically confirms my fears that it might be a heavy beast. MC compares it the Triumph TBird. At least price seems competitive:
"The real surprise to us was the unveiling of the California prototype, a huge, 1,400cc cruiser featuring an all-new 90-degree V-twin. The California was apparently inspired by Triumph’s equally ginormous 1,600cc Thunderbird, a model designed to lure customers from Harley-Davidson and the Metric Cruisers of Japan.
"Moto Guzzi has a short press release about the V7 Scrambler and California on the Moto Guzzi website, but no information on the V7 Racer. Expect the V7 Scrambler to list for around $8,900 and the California to be competitive with the Thunderbird, which starts at $12,499." – Richard Backus
Read more: http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/blacksidedown-moto-guzzi-prototypes.aspx#ixzz1DbN8YpPb
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This is a good point. I'd imagine mid-50s with two Guzzis in the garage is a good average.
40-60 being the other sides of the bell curve. Some owners with 3+ bikes in the garage.
This is something PGA is up against here in the USA. Most of the buyers are current customers. They need to find a way to keep reselling to the same few thousand people each year.
I'm about to turn 44 and currently have 3 in the garage. If things work out over the next year, or so, a Stelvio v1.2 will be in the garage as well...
I have several Guzzis and will be riding them by my current estimate until about 2045. I've spent $40K cash on recreational vehicles in the last year. No plans to buy Piaggio products (regardless of name on the tank) based on what they've made so far, there are better places to spend money. They're not gaining buyers with the current product strategy, they're losing them.
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Only 3,000 people a year buy a new Guzzi. If Piaggio decided they were going to sell Guzzi's with inline 4's, how many people would know any different? Most of the people who really care about Guzzi history don't buy new Guzzi's. They are still trying to wear out Eldorado's they bought 30 years ago. The other two million people who buy a bike each year have never heard of Guzzi. They have no idea what a "Guzzi" is supposed to be.
Piaggio can introduce anything they like because the potential gains would far outweigh the loss from old-time Guzzi owners. I'm not suggesting that is what they should do, I am just pointing out that there are maybe 100 active posters on this forum and they probably represent a large portion of the US Guzzi demographic. That has to change if the brand is going to survive. You can't build a business around a bunch of negative, old men.
I think the new Cali looks great and I honestly don't care if it's liquid cooled or not. I also think the new Norge and Stelvio are also great. While liquid cooling seems to have a stigma attached by some Guzzi riders, the vast majority of motorcyclists don't care if a bike has a radiator as long as it's fun to ride, doesn't break all the time, they can afford it and there is a decent dealer nearby.
Well said, John inVT!
Bob
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Victory might sell as few bikes a year as Guzzi...
Looking at the numbers from another post ($81,600,000 year ending 2009 or 2010). I would estimate the average Victory sale averages out at $16-18k. Say $17k.
$81600000/$17000 = 4800 units. So, give or take 500 bikes one way or the other, probably the same approximate number of new bikes on the road in recent calendar years. Revenue comparison, have no idea.
Bob
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But it's not JUST Guzzi...
BMW, Triumph, Ducati, Royal Einfield, Ural all still sell air-cooled bikes (along with a handful of the Japanese models), they must have SOME collective lobbying presence in Europe no?
Look, I'm a bit of hippie from an environmental standpoint.
I bought an EFI bike as soon as I could for that reason.
I've kept the cat-cons on my bikes that have come with them.
I don't tune for max power at the cost of pollutants.
But for gawd's sake, would someone wake up and see how small an amount of pollution motorcycles are contributing to the overall picture.
We've cleaned up 2-strokes, with EFI we've seriously cleaned up motorcycles in general.
And just look at the overall fuel efficiency of smaller air-cooled models like the V7 or Bonnie... leave em alone...
+1000
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Victory might sell as few bikes a year as Guzzi...
Looking at the numbers from another post ($81,600,000 year ending 2009 or 2010). I would estimate the average Victory sale averages out at $16-18k. Say $17k.
$81600000/$17000 = 4800 units. So, give or take 500 bikes one way or the other, probably the same approximate number of new bikes on the road in recent calendar years. Revenue comparison, have no idea.
Bob
DOH, thanks for posting that - I put an extra zero in when I was coming up with my estimate.
So yup, this means Victory sells in the same ballpark as Guzzi...i.e. very few.
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To all Dealers,
Any word on when the new California becomes a reality?
http://www.motoguzzicalifornia.com/2011/02/california-1400/
Is it rumored to be a 2012 model? Does that mean we might see something this fall or next spring?
I'm just trying to plan upgrades to my current 01' California accordingly. If there's a chance I might be able to shop the new California in less than a year...I might just sit tight and hang on to my money for a possible bike swap.
Thanks!
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Any word on when the new California becomes a reality?
Overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's "too ugly: go back to the drawing board!" so doubtful that we'll see it. Don't forget that it took the MGS '01 and the Griso both about 5 years to actually make it off the concept vehicle stage & into the dealer catalog... Despite Piaggio's takeover of Guzzi, I don't think that part is going to change all that much! ;)
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Any word on when the new California becomes a reality?
Overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's "too ugly: go back to the drawing board!" so doubtful that we'll see it.
I guess that depends on where you stand in the consensus, I remember it being fairly well split.
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I dig it. If the ergos are reasonable I would consider trading my 1200 Sport on one in a year or two.
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I think the first question to answer is if it will become a reality. As everyone should know by now just because Guzzi shows something, doesn't necessarily mean it will ever be made.
As for me, I like the looks but the controls look a bit far forward and I'm wondering about the tank capacity. Anything smaller than the current Cali tank would be a non-starter for me unless it gets fabulous gas mileage. I'd like to see a 200 mile capacity without having to fret over the low fuel light for 50 miles.
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Actually, I'm not really under the impression it's an "IF" - I'm under the impression it's more a WHEN... just because of tightening EU standards...
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Time is a flexible thing when it comes to Guzzis... it might be "when, not if" but that assumes the sun will still be coming up at that time. I think they'll do a lot more work to the bike shown before releasing a 1400 cc engine.
Some are still waiting on the Ippogriffo... :D
(http://www.epfguzzi.com/V7_LG.JPG)
Some have aged a lot waiting for the Falco ;D ;D
(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/452/falco350.jpg) (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/falco350.jpg/)
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Understood, but there wasn't an emissions-regulation motivation for something like the Ippogriffo.
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Any word on when the new California becomes a reality?
Overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's "too ugly: go back to the drawing board!" so doubtful that we'll see it. Don't forget that it took the MGS '01 and the Griso both about 5 years to actually make it off the concept vehicle stage & into the dealer catalog... Despite Piaggio's takeover of Guzzi, I don't think that part is going to change all that much! ;)
I liked it.
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There seems to be a fairly pronounced disconnect with Piaggio and it's previous customer base. Piaggio is still very much a Italian company, with all it's warts and all. But, yet it is far and away a much more modern company. I don't think the same old constructs can be applied today.
Think about it. Since Aprillia took over, how late have models shown up? The Ipogrifo, was pre Aprillia. The MGS -01 was never going to go street using the old 4v. The Griso and Breva showed up in the US about a year after there intro to the EU, the Norge and Vintage, as I recall about 6 months. Things are not what they used to be, for better or worse.
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Has there been any further information on the California 1400? Some crappy pics appeared last February with no real info on specifics. It then it fell of the radar. Has MG thrown in the towel already?
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Wait till the Milian show in November.
www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/crystal-ball-2012-moto-guzzi/18080.html
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Some crappy pics appeared last February
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-ZjqfR9N/0/XL/MotoGuzziprototipoCalifornia1-XL.jpg)
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Some crappy pics appeared last February
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-ZjqfR9N/0/XL/MotoGuzziprototipoCalifornia1-XL.jpg)
Now isn't that attractive :-O
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If this is as good in the execution as it is in promise, I'll be looking at turning the Valkyrie Interstate and the G12 into a single Cali 14 in the next few years.
Mark
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I'm thinking it's gonna be a hit! The photos really don't look that bad and it'll probably look much better in person.
My guess is we'll see the California finally get the CARC drive, the six speed gearbox, a better charging system, maybe a new sportier suspension closer to the Norge even though I see twin shocks, and an all new more powerful water cooled engine which will be a huge step forward in performance. Once again just my personal crystal ball, but I'm looking forward to it.
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I'm thinking it's gonna be a hit! The photos really don't look that bad and it'll probably look much better in person.
My guess is we'll see the California finally get the CARC drive, the six speed gearbox, a better charging system, a new sporty suspension closer to the level of Norge, and an all new more powerful water cooled engine which will be a huge step forward in performance. Once again just my personal crystal ball, but I'm looking forward to it.
I hope you're right because if you are, it'll be the first cruiser I've ever bought. ;D My main concern is going to be the price. If they bring it out and announce a 17 or 18 thousand dollar MSRP, it's going to be beyond my pain threshold.
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I think at least 17K, and that's about where my pain threshold is located as well. Good looking bike,
John
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I think at least 17K, and that's about where my pain threshold is located as well. Good looking bike,
John
With the current value of the USD? Probably be at least that!
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I would hope they make a real touring model as an option. It's one thing to spend 17K on a new bike, but it's another to have to plop anther grand or two in accessories and then have to wait for them. They should offer a fully dressed version up front.
My bark is same as my bite. Offer one fully loaded up front, and I'll get one without hesitation. Dang good looking motorcycle. ;-T, however the photo looks like a close up of a 1/18 scale model.
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rumoured to be £10k in UK, should be cheaper in USA, every other Guzzi is
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If it comes to Australia, it'll be at least $25k
Mike
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I would hope they make a real touring model as an option. It's one thing to spend 17K on a new bike, but it's another to have to plop anther grand or two in accessories and then have to wait for them. They should offer a fully dressed version up front.
I agree. A full touring version with bags similar to the California Vintage and a great full coverage windshield.
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With apologies to some of my fellow Guzzisitis, I'm not much for cruisers. However, that is really, really nice. I, too, would like to see a touring version... and a power cruiser version.
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My biggest issue will be where to buy one, and get any kind of parts or service. I have done business with Harper's for some parts, but 500 miles is a bit far to drive for someone to diagnose things that are beyond me.
I haven't had the best of luck with dealers. My first one was only 70 miles away in Tipton, IN, but he went out of business in 2005. The next closest was in Louisville, where I bought my Norge in 2007. But he was gone by 2009. Then it was Mishawaka, IN, and they are gone, and so it goes.
I am really stoked about the 1400, especially if it has the HP to go with it. Here in the land of neverending hd, being different means trying not to hurt anyone's feelings when they can't keep up.
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My biggest issue will be where to buy one, and get any kind of parts or service. I have done business with Harper's for some parts, but 500 miles is a bit far to drive for someone to diagnose things that are beyond me.
I haven't had the best of luck with dealers. My first one was only 70 miles away in Tipton, IN, but he went out of business in 2005. The next closest was in Louisville, where I bought my Norge in 2007. But he was gone by 2009. Then it was Mishawaka, IN, and they are gone, and so it goes.
I am really stoked about the 1400, especially if it has the HP to go with it. Here in the land of neverending hd, being different means trying not to hurt anyone's feelings when they can't keep up.
Hmm yet another Indiana guy that I don't know.. where are you located?
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My biggest issue will be where to buy one, and get any kind of parts or service. I have done business with Harper's for some parts, but 500 miles is a bit far to drive for someone to diagnose things that are beyond me.
I haven't had the best of luck with dealers. My first one was only 70 miles away in Tipton, IN, but he went out of business in 2005. The next closest was in Louisville, where I bought my Norge in 2007. But he was gone by 2009. Then it was Mishawaka, IN, and they are gone, and so it goes.
I am really stoked about the 1400, especially if it has the HP to go with it. Here in the land of neverending hd, being different means trying not to hurt anyone's feelings when they can't keep up.
Hmm yet another Indiana guy that I don't know.. where are you located?
Heck I thought all of you were related :)
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Has there been any further information on the California 1400? Some crappy pics appeared last February with no real info on specifics. It then it fell of the radar. Has MG thrown in the towel already?
It will be released along side of the Ippogriffo! ;D ;D
Actually, I like the bike, a lot! It prolly has a quiet engine.
Tom
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I've liked it ever since the first pictures were released last winter. It should run pretty well. Hopefully Piaggio will keep the retail cost down and we can get a dealer here in SW Ohio area.........I'm not holding my breath tho !!! ::) The Kid
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Any rumors/reports/uneducated guesses on what kind of power the new engine will turn out?
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Any rumors/reports/uneducated guesses on what kind of power the new engine will turn out?
THE answer is 42
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If it comes to Australia, it'll be at least $25k
Mike
Thinking nearer to 30k...
But could get a few bums on seats in mining areas here
all over-cooked with Harleys & looking for something
different hence the Victory presence of late.
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I am no doubt the last person on this group to see them, but just stumbled across the photos of the new California 1400. Is it just me or does it look too 'Japanese' to be a Guzzi? Sure the current California Vintage uses the old 1100 engine, and sure it looks like an old CHIPS bike, but to me at least, that's part of the charm. After all, think of it as the best Bagger Harley never made, one with a great suspension, brakes and build quality. The new bike lacks its looks and any semblence of charm, IMHO. Glad I bought one of the last new in crate Vintages, if this is what next year's model looks like, Guzzi is simply joining a pack of modern designs done better elsewhere.
Your thoughts? Dave
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Its fugly.
I like the classic engine in a tonti... but they alredy did that. Lets see what they come up with next... I am only worried it wont be a financial disaster for guzzi.
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Yes, tank looks like an old Goldwing and side covers look strait off a Kawi KZ900.
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I think the California 1400 looks awesome and I'm very anxious to see it. Hopefully it'll still come to market.
All the best,
Mark
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I think the California 1400 looks awesome and I'm very anxious to see it. Hopefully it'll still come to market.
All the best,
Mark
I agree I love the decoish lines. I think it captures the spirit of Guzzi while still reaching out to a larger public. Can't wait to see the specs on the 1400cc engine.
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Okay, guess I'm in the minority here. Dave
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You might not be in the minority, only been a handfull of responses. I like it so far, really looking forward to see what the production model will look like. I bet is we find out at the big euro shows this fall.
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Why not wait until the production ready item is shown before making any judgements? Not a lot you can really tell for sure from one grainy, poorly lit photo of a prototype...
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He's right, let's wait and see. I think this could be a Road King Killer!
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When they make it I will believe it.
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Bagger Harley? Is that something new from Harley?
Matt
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Think the first one they built was in 36. Dave
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I gave up and couldn't wait any longer...So I bought the new 8v Norge....(white) The fastest color so far....LOL... I look forward to their success....
Steve
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Bagger Harley? Is that something new from Harley?
Matt
Heh, when I got my FLHS Electra-Glide "Sport" people called it a bagger. It must have been the saddlebags on the back.
Those Harley guys are so cute with the lingo and doo-rags and all. That's when I learned what a "cager" was. :D
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Well, it seems like the uber bike company is once again trying to keep up with Moto Guzzi.
As is well know around these parts, Moto Guzzi showed off a prototype totally new 1400cc liquid cooled motor and chassie to their dealer network back in January.http://www.motoguzzicalifornia.com/2011/02/california-1400/
Now spy shots are out of an apparent liquid cooled BMW boxer! Ah, the more things change, the more they stay the same! Good luck BMW, your gonna need it to keep up with Una Storia Italiana
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/616/10853/Motorcycle-Article/Spy-Shot--2012-Water-Cooled-BMW-R1200GS.aspx
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Chasing? I don't think so. BMW has had wasserboxers on the drawing board for years. Probably waiting for the right time to gradually introduce the air and air/oil cooled riders to it. And of course, the K bikes (flying bricks) have been water cooled since their introduction in 1983.
Bob
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Great - an even heavier GS. Oh, to have had the foresight to buy and keep an 85/100GS back in the day...
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Water-cooled??? It will never catch on. :P
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Great - an even heavier GS. Oh, to have had the foresight to buy and keep an 85/100GS back in the day...
That's what I thought .... in 1991. And she's still a good ride in 2011!
Bob
(http://s2.postimage.org/jks1f2g4/Hudson_to_Montana_2009_067_Small.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jks1f2g4/)
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I saw this badboy in Germany, K1200R, I think,
(http://s2.postimage.org/jlngmntw/IMG_2914.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jlngmntw/)
and this one,
(http://s2.postimage.org/jm4004ro/IMG_2913.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jm4004ro/)
Tom
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I'm talking about the iconic motors of both companies guys! Not the flash in the pan, motor de jor.
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Well, it seems like the uber bike company is once again trying to keep up with Moto Guzzi.
As is well know around these parts, Moto Guzzi showed off a prototype totally new 1400cc liquid cooled motor and chassie to their dealer network back in January.http://www.motoguzzicalifornia.com/2011/02/california-1400/
Now spy shots are out of an apparent liquid cooled BMW boxer! Ah, the more things change, the more they stay the same! Good luck BMW, your gonna need it to keep up with Una Storia Italiana
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/616/10853/Motorcycle-Article/Spy-Shot--2012-Water-Cooled-BMW-R1200GS.aspx
I'll assume you're just kidding around,,,,your topic title may do well in an arena of jesus juice drinking Guzzisti [like me] , but could really not be father from the truth. this company runs F1 engines, V12's, etc, and currently the most potent supersport bike on the planet right out of the box. I can assure you Moto Guzzi's actions had nothing to do with BMW liquid cooling it's flat twin, but everything to do with The EU's upcoming super strict emmision and noise requirements. This is what will ultimately have Moto Guzzi AND Harley Davidson liquid cooling their engines.
Steve
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Guzzi has a glorious past as well, racing and developing cutting edge engines....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_V8
I don't think emmisions where a concern when this was built!
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Wonder what capacity the fuel tank is. The trend with the past is a smaller one. Maybe 3 gal. usable. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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To get back onto the subject,you have to think about BMW chasing GUZZI or GUZZI chasing BMW.
To chase means that you have to be going in the same direction as your target.
BMW and GUZZI just cross paths and overlap sometimes.
The important point is that they both stay in the Motorcycle Industry.
Cheers, Voncrump
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Current engine development to market. BMW has Guzzi beat. Look at all the latest stuff - inline 6, Upright twin, 4 cylinder and single.
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Yeah; but when you paint a BMW white, people mistake it for a urinal. That doesn't happen with a Guzzi. ;)
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Guzzi had liquid cooling in 1956, of course BMW is following:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/V8_27.jpg/800px-V8_27.jpg)
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I dont want water cooling.
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I dont want water cooling.
Neither do I.
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I think BMW knows who is chasing them ..... it isn't Moto Guzzi .... it's Triumph.
Bob
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Wonder what capacity the fuel tank is. The trend with the past is a smaller one. Maybe 3 gal. usable. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
?????
You must be talking about the 1st series Stelvio.
Steve
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Guzzi has a glorious past as well, racing and developing cutting edge engines....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_V8
I don't think emmisions where a concern when this was built!
Yes - but that was over half a century ago. Before most of the people on this list were born. ;) ;)
BMW is selling this at your local dealer today;
(http://www.atzonline.com/cms/images/m06-11-06.jpg)
And it's very very sweet.
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It's got four cylinders too many, and it's bigger than a Volkswagen. It has more electronic gizmos than a Saturn 5, and just wait until a little corrosion makes its way into some of the electrical connectors. It's a freakin' two wheeled Bulgemobile.
Maybe it'll go head to head with a Lead Wing, but it's got nothing that I want in a motorcycle.
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I recall reading a review a long time ago where a Guzzi was
described as like a BMW, "....but with it's cylinders raised in
a mischievous V-sign..." I've always loved that desription!
LJK Setright, maybe?
Sounds like something he might have written.
-Tom
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Guzzi has a glorious past as well, racing and developing cutting edge engines....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_V8
I don't think emmisions where a concern when this was built!
Yes - but that was over half a century ago. Before most of the people on this list were born. ;) ;)
BMW is selling this at your local dealer today;
(http://www.atzonline.com/cms/images/m06-11-06.jpg)
And it's very very sweet.
Sweet...yes but i am not about to spend 25k on a motorcycle!
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Guzzi has a glorious past as well, racing and developing cutting edge engines....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_V8
I don't think emmisions where a concern when this was built!
Yes - but that was over half a century ago. Before most of the people on this list were born. ;) ;)
BMW is selling this at your local dealer today;
(http://www.atzonline.com/cms/images/m06-11-06.jpg)
And it's very very sweet.
4 too many cylinders that aren't needed. I prefer to do more with less as I feel that's what a motorcycle is in the first place.
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Dejavu!
I was at my local BMW dealer today .......because I have not been there since they moved. Anyhow, I used to lust after a Bumble Bee GS. I still love that bike. I could not help but notice the current 1200 GS Adventure at 21,000 dollars. But it had a 8+ gallon tank.
Anyhow, it was hard to ignore the bike their main Tech rides. A 97 GS with 103,000 + miles on it. I know him sorta and we got to talking after years of not seeing each other. All he has done are a clutch and throttle bodies. The throttle shafts were leaking causing poor running. He changed them at 70,000. Thinks maybe the injectors need replaced now.
I like all bikes. especially ones that seem to make a lot of sense AND hold up under the test of time. I will never pay 21 grand for a motorcycle. I would however like the chance to take off on his 100,000+ mile GS for a week or two.
OH, my buddy that drove us there is lusting after the New bike. It really sounded good! I do not know why he did not ride it. It was offered. I would have the 1600 BMW way sooner than a Goldwing. It still looks like a motorcycle!
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Dejavu!
I was at my local BMW dealer today .......because I have not been there since they moved. Anyhow, I used to lust after a Bumble Bee GS. I still love that bike. I could not help but notice the current 1200 GS Adventure at 21,000 dollars. But it had a 8+ gallon tank.
Anyhow, it was hard to ignore the bike their main Tech rides. A 97 GS with 103,000 + miles on it. I know him sorta and we got to talking after years of not seeing each other. All he has done are a clutch and throttle bodies. The throttle shafts were leaking causing poor running. He changed them at 70,000. Thinks maybe the injectors need replaced now.
I like all bikes. especially ones that seem to make a lot of sense AND hold up under the test of time. I will never pay 21 grand for a motorcycle. I would however like the chance to take off on his 100,000+ mile GS for a week or two.
OH, my buddy that drove us there is lusting after the New bike. It really sounded good! I do not know why he did not ride it. It was offered. I would have the 1600 BMW way sooner than a Goldwing. It still looks like a motorcycle!
Sounds like you were at Mathias BMW in New Philadelphia. A really great motorcycle shop. Gene, the owner, always has time to discuss the happenings of the day, lots of other friendly riders stop by, and Jamie and Eric, the mechanics, are tops. I do most of my own work on the GS, but I know my limitations. When the rear main tranny bearing needed replaced, I did the dirty work (pulling the tranny and reinstalling it). Jamie did the benchwork. Same for a final drive seal a few years ago. Never an issue with their work. BTW, that 1997 GS you mentioned doesn't live the easiest life, either.
Bob
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Dejavu!
I was at my local BMW dealer today .......because I have not been there since they moved. Anyhow, I used to lust after a Bumble Bee GS. I still love that bike. I could not help but notice the current 1200 GS Adventure at 21,000 dollars. But it had a 8+ gallon tank.
Anyhow, it was hard to ignore the bike their main Tech rides. A 97 GS with 103,000 + miles on it. I know him sorta and we got to talking after years of not seeing each other. All he has done are a clutch and throttle bodies. The throttle shafts were leaking causing poor running. He changed them at 70,000. Thinks maybe the injectors need replaced now.
I like all bikes. especially ones that seem to make a lot of sense AND hold up under the test of time. I will never pay 21 grand for a motorcycle. I would however like the chance to take off on his 100,000+ mile GS for a week or two.
OH, my buddy that drove us there is lusting after the New bike. It really sounded good! I do not know why he did not ride it. It was offered. I would have the 1600 BMW way sooner than a Goldwing. It still looks like a motorcycle!
Sounds like you were at Mathias BMW in New Philadelphia. A really great motorcycle shop. Gene, the owner, always has time to discuss the happenings of the day, lots of other friendly riders stop by, and Jamie and Eric, the mechanics, are tops. I do most of my own work on the GS, but I know my limitations. When the rear main tranny bearing needed replaced, I did the dirty work (pulling the tranny and reinstalling it). Jamie did the benchwork. Same for a final drive seal a few years ago. Never an issue with their work. BTW, that 1997 GS you mentioned doesn't live the easiest life, either.
Bob
You are correct! I live in East Sparta. Approx. 15 or so miles north o them. Jamie in mineral city. I remember when he first got that bike. I was surprised to see he was still riding it. I remember at one time he didn't own a vehicle of any kind. Just the bike. ;)
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Guzzi has a glorious past as well, racing and developing cutting edge engines....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_V8
I don't think emmisions where a concern when this was built!
Yes - but that was over half a century ago. Before most of the people on this list were born. ;) ;)
4 too many cylinders that aren't needed. I prefer to do more with less as I feel that's what a motorcycle is in the first place.
Which one the eight cylinder Goose or the six cylinder Beemer
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Guzzi has a glorious past as well, racing and developing cutting edge engines....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_V8
I don't think emmisions where a concern when this was built!
Yes - but that was over half a century ago. Before most of the people on this list were born. ;) ;)
4 too many cylinders that aren't needed. I prefer to do more with less as I feel that's what a motorcycle is in the first place.
Which one the eight cylinder Goose or the six cylinder Beemer
This one. This one is more with less! ;)
(http://s3.postimage.org/33fd5j4as/IMG_2391.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/33fd5j4as/)
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I love cool aid! :) That being said,
let's see who brings their liquid cooled ionic motor to the public first! And which one turns out to be more fun.
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Wonder what capacity the fuel tank is. The trend with the past is a smaller one. Maybe 3 gal. usable. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
?????
You must be talking about the 1st series Stelvio.
Steve
I was talking about the MG line in general. Fortunately with the Stelvio. The problelm may be fixed with the 3.0 series coming out. ;-T
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Getting a little impatient waiting for any news on the Cal 1400. Even governments can't keep a secret this long. Has anyone heard any rumblings as to if or when this this bike might appear? Possibly some of our European members might have some info, by virtue of being closer to the source.
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Several companies, like Norton and BMW, have gotten themselves in trouble because they pushed a design which worked very well at 500 or 600 ccs to 850 or 1000 ccs, and suddenly either lost their business, or lost their reputation for quality.
I hope Guzzi doesn't do the same thing, pushing a design which worked well at 700 and 1000 ccs and even more, to unreasonable levels in order to chase some marketing desire to Be Bigger. Of course, men have to Be Bigger. 1800cc? 2300cc? Not enough, we have to Be Bigger.
At some point the design will fail and everyone will say "Why did they do that?"
I'm saying it now!
Lannis
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What did BMW do?
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As to the original question, wait a week or so. It's fairly likely that some info will be released at the big Guzzi 90th birthday celebration
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/591/10502/Motorcycle-Article/GMG-Moto-Guzzi-Returns-to-Mandello-del-Lario-.aspx
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What did BMW do?
Gave up on that style of bike because the motor was deemed too small to remain competitive in the marketplace.
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What did BMW do?
Gone from a perception of no-compromise, white-glove, Teutonic tradition of hand-made high quality .... to photos of flaming rear axles, tales of drive-lines exploding and ruining Alaska trips while the KLRs soldier on, and a perception that things aren't what they used to be ....
Lannis
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Ok, but the BMW cruiser was not a failur because the motor was pushed to too many cc, which is what Lanis is saying, right?
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Seems like in one of the Guzzi books I have about, Dr John Wittner (sp?) pretty clearly laid out how he and the factory could find no significant and reliable dimension increase with the current architecture. Throw of the crank journal, stud spacing, block rigidity and the like.
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Look at the pictures of the 1400 Cali and you an plainly see it is a version of the 8V motor. The 8v has been designed to be bored larger. look at the spigots on the barrels, the walls are a good centimetre + thick.
Despite outward appearances the 8V motor is COMPLETLY DIFFERENT to the old 2-valve pushrod motor.The stud spacing is different and because the idler shaft for the camchain drive doesn't carry cam lobes there are no clearance issues with the big ends of the rods biffing the lobes. Whether that means there is room for further stroke increases I don't know but boriing for capacity is easy.
While it is only my guess I'm suspecting that the reason for the very high domes on the rocker covers is because there wille a second plug in each combustion chamber to combat low speed surging events. They are most likely purely cosmetic. If there is one thing that concerns me about increasing the motor's size it is the possibility of the brather system being unable to cope. Only time will tell whether they have increased it's ability toseparate oil from gas.
also I very much doubt it'll be water-cooled. As I said the pics look like a standard 8V, oil cooled with air assist, motor. The large radiator at the front will simply be a fan-forced oil cooler as is fitted to the Norge 8V.
VDG
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I have thought it may be a MPC BB1 motor in it.
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Ok, but the BMW cruiser was not a failur because the motor was pushed to too many cc, which is what Lanis is saying, right?
My suspicion is that the rest of the bike (motor internals, drive train) isn't handling two huge thumping cylinders making 50 HP each very well.
I don't insist that it's true, but those who can't remember history are doomed to repeat it .... !
Lannis
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Ok, but the BMW cruiser was not a failur because the motor was pushed to too many cc, which is what Lanis is saying, right?
My suspicion is that the rest of the bike (motor internals, drive train) isn't handling two huge thumping cylinders making 50 HP each very well.
I don't insist that it's true, but those who can't remember history are doomed to repeat it .... !
Lannis
If the 1400 is what Pete says, they'll likely detune it from the current 1200 spec seen in the Stelvio, Norge and Griso while increasing the bore. More torque at lower rpm, less outright hp= a beautiful cruiser engine. It's just a WAG, but if it put out 80hp and 85-ishft/lbs at the rear wheel without having to thrash the tits off it, it would be competitive. The 8 valve seems fairly bulletproof. The engine architecture is sound.
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Ok, but the BMW cruiser was not a failur because the motor was pushed to too many cc, which is what Lanis is saying, right?
No, there was a completely non-mechanical reason for it's demise. ;) ;)
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If the 1400 is what Pete says, they'll likely detune it from the current 1200 spec seen in the Stelvio, Norge and Griso while increasing the bore. More torque at lower rpm, less outright hp= a beautiful cruiser engine. It's just a WAG, but if it put out 80hp and 85-ishft/lbs at the rear wheel without having to thrash the tits off it, it would be competitive. The 8 valve seems fairly bulletproof. The engine architecture is sound.
I think I know what you mean by "competitive" here, and if so I agree (with the meaning that it would make a wonderful bike that performs as well or better than much of the competition).
However, when it comes down to sales, I don't know how many more customers it would bring in. The majority of that particular market seems focused on image more than fact and the PERCEPTION will likely be that 1400 renains a bit "small" in a sea of 1600-1800cc bikes.
I though the R1200C was a great bike in a lot of ways, but I do understand BMWs decision not to move forward with it not based on actual competitive performance, but based on that same perception.
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Bigger is not always better. :P
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Continues to befuddle me how 1000cc's ain't enough on highways with speed limits of 75 mph. (and I'm refering to 500cc's per jug, too.)
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Exactly.
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Continues to befuddle me how 1000cc's ain't enough on highways with speed limits of 75 mph. (and I'm refering to 500cc's per jug, too.)
It has nothing to do with how fast it will go, how well it will pull a load, or any of that.
It's "How BIG are you? Size MATTERS, honey!"
Lannis
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Continues to befuddle me how 1000cc's ain't enough on highways with speed limits of 75 mph. (and I'm refering to 500cc's per jug, too.)
Oh, I agree - and it's one of the reasons I've been dragging my feet thinking about replacing the Jackal - I just don't WANT a bike with a motor that is bigger than my car (currently a 1.6L).
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Getting a little impatient waiting for any news on the Cal 1400. Even governments can't keep a secret this long. Has anyone heard any rumblings as to if or when this this bike might appear? Possibly some of our European members might have some info, by virtue of being closer to the source.
Spy-photos HERE: http://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle_news/future_bikes_spy_shots/11q1/moto_guzzi_-_future_bikes_spy_shots
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AFAIK only the couple 'Leaked' last year from the Milan, (?) show. Ugly great brute of a thing in my book but I'm not in the target demographic.
VDG
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Getting a little impatient waiting for any news on the Cal 1400. Even governments can't keep a secret this long. Has anyone heard any rumblings as to if or when this this bike might appear? Possibly some of our European members might have some info, by virtue of being closer to the source.
Spy-photos HERE: http://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle_news/future_bikes_spy_shots/11q1/moto_guzzi_-_future_bikes_spy_shots
the bike in cycleworld article appears to have a big radiator right in the middle of the "v". Which doesn't match the words about the engine being based on the existing 8 v motor.
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I thought this thread was about NEW info - not spy shots that are what now 6 months old? :BEER:
the bike in cycleworld article appears to have a big radiator right in the middle of the "v". Which doesn't match the words about the engine being based on the existing 8 v motor.
As discussed at length in previous threads about this bike SOME feel strongly that said "ratidor" is NOT a RADIATOR but an OIL COOLER.
I'm hoping that is the case, but time will tell.
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I weigh 180lbs. My wife weighs....well I'm not gonna say because she might stab me. With me, my wife and camping gear for a long weekend on a bike we weigh close to 400lbs. Most cruisers weigh 650+ so the laden weight is 1050-1100lbs. I do not parade at 10mph under the speed limit everywhere and I don't ride roads that are flat, straight and boring. There is no such thing as too much power. I get annoyed when old men on this forum whine about high horsepower machines and suggest those of us who enjoy them have a screw loose.
If you're satisfied riding a motorcycle with your wife and having the power to weight ratio of a stock Miata, that's great. Some of us are not. Curving, mountain roads have short sight lines and to execute safe passing manuevers you need high horsepower and torque.
You know what? Bigger IS better sometimes. When it comes to making a pass on the Kancamangus while riding two up, you bet your ass I want 80 or 90ft/lbs. I don't want to down shift three times, I don't want to have to yank on the brakes halfway through the pass to pull back in because I can't get past the Winnebago safely.
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with owning and enjoying a fast motorcycle.
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"There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with owning and enjoying a fast motorcycle. "
Except no one said it had to be a Guzzi.
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"There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with owning and enjoying a fast motorcycle. "
Except no one said it had to be a Guzzi.
HELL no-ONE said that there WAS anything wrong either.
But on the flip side, a bike doesn't have to have a frickin' 1.6-1.8L motor to be able to get out of its own way either.
Then again, don't talk to me, I was perfectly happy rolling across this country from coast-to-coast, 2-up, on a 1340cc motor....
and I don't tour 2-up anymore, so you can subtract about 100 lbs from what my tour bike has to carry (at least in people).
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"There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with owning and enjoying a fast motorcycle. "
Except no one said it had to be a Guzzi.
HELL no-ONE said that there WAS anything wrong either.
But on the flip side, a bike doesn't have to have a frickin' 1.6-1.8L motor to be able to get out of its own way either.....
Nope, nope, Kev, that marks you as one of the old farts who wants to ride slow and whine about high-horsepower machines.
I'm convinced now; aren't you? ;) . There's nothing really made today beside maybe a Boss Hoss with a turbo Corvette engine, or maybe a dual engined Hayabusa that's really got ENOUGH horsepower, and those are doubtful.
I NEED a motorcycle that has 600+ horsepower, has to be able to burn an 8" rear tire from 100 to 150 MPH without changing gear, uphill with a quarter-ton payload. If I can't pass the longest truck in America on the steepest road in America on the shortest passing-zone in America with two big people and a load of gear aboard, then I'm just riding a fairy-bike and need more horsepower. Weight and gas mileage are NOT issues - being able to accelerate at 1.4 G is the criteria. Any of you pansies can't handle that, don't come whining to me about it .....
Lannis (I think it was the word "whine" that did it)
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the bike in cycleworld article appears to have a big radiator right in the middle of the "v". Which doesn't match the words about the engine being based on the existing 8 v motor.
So does the Norge 8V. It's a big, fan assisted, thermostat controlled oil cooler.
Look, I may be quite wrong. It may be an entirely NEW motor. But just consider a few things.
Piaggio have spent a LOT of money developing the 8V oil/air cooled motor and are continuing to make refinements to it and use it in a variety of platforms. Developing a new motor from scratch, (And that is effectively what the 8V motor is.) is NOT cheap and would of been looked at as a mid to long term project, especially for a small brand like Guzzi which has a notoriously conservative and fickle customer base and THEY are who the new Cali is squarely aimed at. Most riders who aren't rusted on to the Guzzi brand and engine architechture aren't going to look at something like a Cali when they can get a Shadow or an HD cheaper.
The world is currently stuck in the financial doldrums. The US ecconomy is entirely stagnant and the European Union is on the brink of financial armageddon. Now is NOT the time to think about gearing up for the production of a brand new machine at a cost of millions of $$/Euros, especially one that willonly appeal to a small market segment. A frame and running gear can be developed reasonably easily and cheaply using available bought in parts like wheels, brakes and suspension. Using the same motive package, albeit without the benefits of the CARC, makes a 'New' model a much more likely and potentially profitable proposition although even the release of something like this would, IMHO, at the moment be risky.
Yes I know everybody loves 'New'! The thing is at the moment the world simply can't afford 'New' every year. This is the hangover from the credit bingefest of the 1990-s to early 2000's and I'm afraid we'd better get used to it.
I stand by my earlier observations.
VDG
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I thought this thread was about NEW info - not spy shots that are what now 6 months old? :BEER:
the bike in cycleworld article appears to have a big radiator right in the middle of the "v". Which doesn't match the words about the engine being based on the existing 8 v motor.
As discussed at length in previous threads about this bike SOME feel strongly that said "ratidor" is NOT a RADIATOR but an OIL COOLER.
I'm hoping that is the case, but time will tell.
could I get mine with water cooling and hydraulic lifters please???/ hell we've been doing that for 70+ years
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Lannis, you act so old I'm tempted to ask if rainbows were in black and white when you were a kid. There is nothing wrong with fast motorcycles or cars. Folks who enjoy them are, for the most part, normal. I like Hayabusa's but prefer the ZX-14 and I know what a terrific sport touring bike one would make. I'd ride a Boss Hoss with a Corvette engine just to see what it was like. I also have a weak spot for BSA A10's, Douglas Dragonfly's and Ariel Square Fours so it's not like I measure the worth of every bike by its' power output alone.
One of the most important spec's in a cruiser(for me) is the 50-80mph roll on performance. If Guzzi is going to put one out and not make excuses for it...then it should have more than 80ft/lbs at the rear wheel. The touring Harley's all do and their fuel injection is light years better than Guzzi's. I just rode a friend's brand new Streetglide the other day and it takes the throttle better than any other FI bike I can remember riding. It's perfect. My 1200 Sport was a stumbling, surging pig by comparison even after all the work I did to it. It seems like some people want to keep patting themselves on the back for riding an antiquated, slow, Italian anachronism with piss poor resale value. I'd prefer riding a Guzzi with some actual nuts.
A CARC cruiser with a bored out 8 valve is bad how? Just because it might displace 1400cc's? That is one of the dumbest things I've seen posted on this forum. Hand wringing and forehead slapping amongst the Guzzisti! Poor bastards!
Feel free to go back to spirited discussions about the joys of the Metzeler 880, steelcut oats and how you used to sit next to Jesus in grade school. Thank you....please drive through.
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Slightly used and I barely broken in Harley ElectraGlides are cheap now. And parts are plentiful and dealers abound.
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Wow, so far no one but Vacso has put forth any real insight as to the bike and the tone of many other posts are very negative. Sheese guys, how about waiting till you have actual facts before throwing sand on the project. I for one, am very hopeful it's what I think it could be. We'll have to wait and see till they actually show something though. With 'fans' of the marque like some of you, theres no need for detractors.
Tough crowd some of you,
Mark
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I for one, am very hopeful it's what I think it could be. We'll have to wait and see till they actually show something though. With 'fans' of the marque like some of you, theres no need for detractors.
Tough crowd some of you,
Mark
I'm a huge fan of the marque, obviously, or I wouldn't be buying new Guzzis and have bits of old ones all around my shop.
I just don't want them to screw it up. I think (for the economic reasons Pete mentions) that they may be headed that way.
New is not always better.
Lannis
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Lannis, you act so old I'm tempted to ask if rainbows were in black and white when you were a kid. There is nothing wrong with fast motorcycles or cars. Folks who enjoy them are, for the most part, normal. I like Hayabusa's but prefer the ZX-14 and I know what a terrific sport touring bike one would make. I'd ride a Boss Hoss with a Corvette engine just to see what it was like. I also have a weak spot for BSA A10's, Douglas Dragonfly's and Ariel Square Fours so it's not like I measure the worth of every bike by its' power output alone.
One of the most important spec's in a cruiser(for me) is the 50-80mph roll on performance. If Guzzi is going to put one out and not make excuses for it...then it should have more than 80ft/lbs at the rear wheel. The touring Harley's all do and their fuel injection is light years better than Guzzi's. I just rode a friend's brand new Streetglide the other day and it takes the throttle better than any other FI bike I can remember riding. It's perfect. My 1200 Sport was a stumbling, surging pig by comparison even after all the work I did to it. It seems like some people want to keep patting themselves on the back for riding an antiquated, slow, Italian anachronism with piss poor resale value. I'd prefer riding a Guzzi with some actual nuts.
A CARC cruiser with a bored out 8 valve is bad how? Just because it might displace 1400cc's? That is one of the dumbest things I've seen posted on this forum. Hand wringing and forehead slapping amongst the Guzzisti! Poor bastards!
Feel free to go back to spirited discussions about the joys of the Metzeler 880, steelcut oats and how you used to sit next to Jesus in grade school. Thank you....please drive through.
I know. I feel really bad now. You're like that World's Most Interesting Man in the beer commercial - a wild, crazy, popular guy with a long, honorable juvenile rap sheet who loves fast cars and motorcycles, good liquor, strong drugs, and blazing hot women.
I've always wanted to be like that; living life to the fullest, living right on the edge, seeing every experience through a focused blend of testosterone and adrenalin, and feeling sorry for the poor, slogging slugs like me that just don't know how to get the most out of life with their pitiful little 750cc motorcycles and boring, sad experiences.
Well, there's always hope, I guess. Maybe some day I'll have a Walter Mitty moment, break Western, and for one shining, glowing moment experience life the way you do. That way, it will all be worth while ..... I will have been ALMOST LIKE Vermont John ..... :D :D
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Moto Guzzi could build a bike that is not an air cooled, 90 degree transverse v-twin. Not all motorcycle manufactures use the same engine configuration on all their models. Although I did buy a Guzzi for the air cooled 90 degree transverse v-twin. I do like the older bikes with their simple engine design. When people mention BMW or H D engines, most people think of the 180 degree or 45 degree engines. Both these companies build other types of engines for their bikes. My 1064 cc engine is more than enough for what I like to do on a bike.
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goodness. so much for my befuddlement.
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Look at the pictures of the 1400 Cali and you an plainly see it is a version of the 8V motor. The 8v has been designed to be bored larger. look at the spigots on the barrels, the walls are a good centimetre + thick.
Despite outward appearances the 8V motor is COMPLETLY DIFFERENT to the old 2-valve pushrod motor.The stud spacing is different and because the idler shaft for the camchain drive doesn't carry cam lobes there are no clearance issues with the big ends of the rods biffing the lobes. Whether that means there is room for further stroke increases I don't know but boriing for capacity is easy.
While it is only my guess I'm suspecting that the reason for the very high domes on the rocker covers is because there wille a second plug in each combustion chamber to combat low speed surging events. They are most likely purely cosmetic. If there is one thing that concerns me about increasing the motor's size it is the possibility of the brather system being unable to cope. Only time will tell whether they have increased it's ability toseparate oil from gas.
also I very much doubt it'll be water-cooled. As I said the pics look like a standard 8V, oil cooled with air assist, motor. The large radiator at the front will simply be a fan-forced oil cooler as is fitted to the Norge 8V.
VDG
Thanks for the insight! I like the 8V motor so I'm guessing we might have another winner waiting in the wings.
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John,
For at least half of the most profitable and prolific years of their sales history (meaning about 10 of the past 20 years) Harleys had less than 80-90 ft.lbs. of torque at the rear wheel and pathetic 50-80 roll on.
Again I found 1340cc with more weight and less power than a CARC just fine for touring for thousands of miles.
I don't fault you for wanting more, but I don't expect judgement from you for wanting less.
Frankly 90% of the riders of these bikes don't need more, nor would they know what to do with it and I lament that they are the driving force in making these bikes bigger and bigger for no good reason.
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:BEER:
This is one of the better fights I've seen on here for awhile...
I won't be in the market for the 1400, primarily because it is ugly, but that's truly useless in this discussion... 2nd issue - how much is the thing going to weigh? I don't have any problem with hp - more is better... except I'd generally take the same hp/wt ratio on a lighter, less powerful machine... Me, wife & gear is a small percentage of my riding, so even though I appreciate the argument about getting around the line of campers on a 6% uphill in MT, that really isn't that much of an issue. I spend so much time over 100mph already, on a fat old 1064 cruiser ('04 Stone - recent computer/dyno tune and radial tires), that I will either have my license revoked or be dead before Guzzi gets the 1400 to the US. A suspension upgrade, radial tires, and new, properly tuned carbs on my old /5 probably would have kept me grinnin', too, for that matter, if the engine hadn't finally expired after a long and joyous life...
If I wanted a sportbike, or a modern sport-tourer with 110hp at less than 600lbs fueled, I'd have one. If I wanted a narrow angle v-twin, I'd have one. Don't mean this to be anything more than genial disagreement with Orange Guzzi, but I'll never buy a Guzzi that isn't an air cooled 90 degree v-twin with shaft drive - nobody else builds it. I happen to think that is the optimum arrangement for a retro-tourer that goes plenty fast enough to scare me. I plan to have something with that arrangement in the stable forever - I don't really care if it is Italian, but there is some cache to red exotics...
The 1400 will probably fail, regardless of it's talents, because it doesn't 'market' as well as any of it's competition. Guzzi's winning bikes are the continued Tonti/CA flavor of the year, the V7C, and the Stelvio. Look at resale numbers. The bike they should be building is a CARC based V1000S/V1100S/V1200S retro Lemans (ie, take the Bellagio and put the right tank/fenders on it to result in a modern version of the 1000S, the then modern version of the 850 Lemans, which was an 'update' of the V7 Sport)... would it expand market - not really, but when has Guzzi EVER expanded their market. Their problem remains marketing and dealer support, not the bikes.
My next 3 bikes might be (in no likely order): A SXV 5.5 (to which I will add custom wheels with dual purpose tires - I live in a rural area with unpoliced, well maintained gravel roads and barely policed curvy blacktops), a Virago 250 (to customize and ride around town, then teach my kids on), and a running /5 or /6 airhead to share with my brother and swap engine/tranny components into the /5 I inherited from my uncle... I'll probably change my mind 6 times on what I want next before I get to actually buying anything, but a bike that outweighs my Stone won't be an option.
If Guzzi wants to get me to talk good about the company to everyone that asks me about my goofy bike, they should start with a second or third competent dealership in my state. I really don't give a rat's rear about the 1400, but I would like to see the company stay in business, and I don't think the 1400 is the solution. :BEER: :BEER: :BEER:
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John,
For at least half of the most profitable and prolific years of their sales history (meaning about 10 of the past 20 years Harleys had less than 80-90 ft.lbs. of torque at the rear wheel and pathetic 50-80 roll on.
Again I found 1340cc with more weight and less power than a CARC just fine for touring for thousands of miles.
I don't fault you for wanting more, but I don't expect judgement from you for wanting less.
Frankly 90% of the riders of these bikes don't need more, nor would they know what to do with it and I lament that they are the driving force in making these bikes bigger and bigger for no good reason.
;-T
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Moto Guzzi could build a bike that is not an air cooled, 90 degree transverse v-twin. Not all motorcycle manufactures use the same engine configuration on all their models. Although I did buy a Guzzi for the air cooled 90 degree transverse v-twin. I do like the older bikes with their simple engine design. When people mention BMW or H D engines, most people think of the 180 degree or 45 degree engines. Both these companies build other types of engines for their bikes. My 1064 cc engine is more than enough for what I like to do on a bike.
You're in luck! Moto Guzzi in fact, does build a bike that is not an air-cooled, 90deg transverse v-twin! In fact, all the motorcycles it builds are air-cooled, 90deg inline twins!* I'm sorry you bought your Guzzi thinking you were going to get a configuration they haven't built for over 50 years, but perhaps you were thinking of a Ducati?
;D
* - Since any engineer or serious motor-head will tell ya, "transverse" & "in-line" refer to the crankshaft axis of rotation in relation to the vehicle's major axis. Just doing my part to correct the popular misconception... ;-T
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Moto Guzzi could build a bike that is not an air cooled, 90 degree transverse v-twin. Not all motorcycle manufactures use the same engine configuration on all their models. Although I did buy a Guzzi for the air cooled 90 degree transverse v-twin. I do like the older bikes with their simple engine design. When people mention BMW or H D engines, most people think of the 180 degree or 45 degree engines. Both these companies build other types of engines for their bikes. My 1064 cc engine is more than enough for what I like to do on a bike.
You're in luck! Moto Guzzi in fact, does build a bike that is not an air-cooled, 90deg transverse v-twin! In fact, all the motorcycles it builds are air-cooled, 90deg inline twins!* I'm sorry you bought your Guzzi thinking you were going to get a configuration they haven't built for over 50 years, but perhaps you were thinking of a Ducati?
;D
your going to get on my ignore list.
I was actually thinging of Ducati before my first Guzzi.
* - Since any engineer or serious motor-head will tell ya, "transverse" & "in-line" refer to the crankshaft axis of rotation in relation to the vehicle's major axis. Just doing my part to correct the popular misconception... ;-T
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Seems like in one of the Guzzi books I have about, Dr John Wittner (sp?) pretty clearly laid out how he and the factory could find no significant and reliable dimension increase with the current architecture. Throw of the crank journal, stud spacing, block rigidity and the like.
It seems to me that this line of argument is valid only if the original spec crankcase is used. An all-new crankcase should support whatever size engine it is designed for. Norton got into trouble when it tried to expand the 500cc Dominator of the early 1950s (I had one) into an 850 (actually, 828cc. I have one) but the new 951cc Nortons should have no trouble handling the displacement increase since the engine is designed and built to support that displacement.
What say, Lannis?
Ralph
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Seems like in one of the Guzzi books I have about, Dr John Wittner (sp?) pretty clearly laid out how he and the factory could find no significant and reliable dimension increase with the current architecture. Throw of the crank journal, stud spacing, block rigidity and the like.
A few things that people seem to have overooked.
1.) The 8V motor, despite outward appearance and a few similarities to the 'old' motor that even the Daytona/Centauro Hi-Cams were based on is effectively an entirely NEW motor. Even the factory press releases made a lot of noise about how many new parts and variations there are in it compared to the 'Older' motors.
2.) John Wittner was, and no doubt still is, an enormously tallented and driven man but he has been effectively 'Out of the loop' since the late 1990's so saying that he 'Knew such and such' is about as relevant to the 'New' Hi Cam as expecting Alexander the Great to be able to saddle up in the 21'st century and go and conquor the Levant and North Africa!
By saying these things I've probably commited some sort of 'Corn Cob Pipe Sacrelige' but I'm sorry, the truth sometimes hurts. It is no more 1994 than it is 1967 which is where some people's brains seem to have ossified.
If you want an 'old' bike? Fine! I have several myself. It's just that not everyone wants to stop still and remain fixed like some sort of bug in amber. I have faith in the cleverness, if not the wisom, of 'ooman beenz. If we stop going forward in any sort of endeavour the only thing that faces us is extinction. I'm not ready to hand in my genetic code just yet!!!! ;D
VDG
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Lannis, you act so old I'm tempted to ask if rainbows were in black and white when you were a kid. There is nothing wrong with fast motorcycles or cars. Folks who enjoy them are, for the most part, normal. I like Hayabusa's but prefer the ZX-14 and I know what a terrific sport touring bike one would make. I'd ride a Boss Hoss with a Corvette engine just to see what it was like. I also have a weak spot for BSA A10's, Douglas Dragonfly's and Ariel Square Fours so it's not like I measure the worth of every bike by its' power output alone.
One of the most important spec's in a cruiser(for me) is the 50-80mph roll on performance. If Guzzi is going to put one out and not make excuses for it...then it should have more than 80ft/lbs at the rear wheel. The touring Harley's all do and their fuel injection is light years better than Guzzi's. I just rode a friend's brand new Streetglide the other day and it takes the throttle better than any other FI bike I can remember riding. It's perfect. My 1200 Sport was a stumbling, surging pig by comparison even after all the work I did to it. It seems like some people want to keep patting themselves on the back for riding an antiquated, slow, Italian anachronism with piss poor resale value. I'd prefer riding a Guzzi with some actual nuts.
A CARC cruiser with a bored out 8 valve is bad how? Just because it might displace 1400cc's? That is one of the dumbest things I've seen posted on this forum. Hand wringing and forehead slapping amongst the Guzzisti! Poor bastards!
Feel free to go back to spirited discussions about the joys of the Metzeler 880, steelcut oats and how you used to sit next to Jesus in grade school. Thank you....please drive through.
I know. I feel really bad now. You're like that World's Most Interesting Man in the beer commercial - a wild, crazy, popular guy with a long, honorable juvenile rap sheet who loves fast cars and motorcycles, good liquor, strong drugs, and blazing hot women.
I've always wanted to be like that; living life to the fullest, living right on the edge, seeing every experience through a focused blend of testosterone and adrenalin, and feeling sorry for the poor, slogging slugs like me that just don't know how to get the most out of life with their pitiful little 750cc motorcycles and boring, sad experiences.
Well, there's always hope, I guess. Maybe some day I'll have a Walter Mitty moment, break Western, and for one shining, glowing moment experience life the way you do. That way, it will all be worth while ..... I will have been ALMOST LIKE Vermont John ..... :D :D
The fact you're an old, miserable, judgemental tool who enjoys pissing in everyone's Cheerio's is only partially relevant. How is a 1400cc CARC equiped Guzzi a bad thing? You keep going on and on about how Guzzi is going to fail and that bigger isn't better. What is your real issue with the bike? Is it the 1400cc displacement? Would 1300cc meet with your approval? Should it be a 750? Last I knew you were raving about how great your 95hp Stelvio 8 valve is compared to your previous bike so you strike me as a gigantic hypocrit. Why aren't you hauling your fat ass around on a Falcone with your wife and camping gear on the back? Could it be that the Stelvio's 1200cc's is...gasp...better suited for that task? Could it be that bigger really is better in some cases?
If by being like me you have an open mind about motorcycles and enjoy all sizes, styles, shapes and aspects of them...then that's great. If I wanted to be like you I'd cut 4 inches off my penis, gain 200 pounds and give myself a lobotomy with a Dremel.
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Seems like in one of the Guzzi books I have about, Dr John Wittner (sp?) pretty clearly laid out how he and the factory could find no significant and reliable dimension increase with the current architecture. Throw of the crank journal, stud spacing, block rigidity and the like.
It seems to me that this line of argument is valid only if the original spec crankcase is used. An all-new crankcase should support whatever size engine it is designed for. Norton got into trouble when it tried to expand the 500cc Dominator of the early 1950s (I had one) into an 850 (actually, 828cc. I have one) but the new 951cc Nortons should have no trouble handling the displacement increase since the engine is designed and built to support that displacement.
What say, Lannis?
Ralph
Good point, and I don't disagree that a fully engineered solution might enable a company to "force" an iconic design into larger and larger displacements without coming apart. As you say, Norton didn't do it with their expanded 500cc, and the jury's deliberating on whether BMW has done themselves any favors in turning their twin from a 600cc that was the undisputed king of quality and balance in its day, to a 1000/1100/1200cc bike that many people don't believe is as good.
Question is, is Guzzi helping themselves by chasing Harley Davidson and Victory into the displacement stratosphere while trying to maintain their trademark design? My opinion and impression (along with several others here, apparently) is no. Others think it might be.
I'm with Pete, well outside the "target demographic" for this item.
Lannis
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Your wife lacks taste and obviously has shallow genitalia.
You still haven't answered the question. Why is your 1200cc, 600+pound Stelvio the best thing since sliced bread but a 1400cc Cali would cause the sky to fall?
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Jeez! Youse blokes are like a pair of angry, shrieking Queens at the Sydney Mardi-Gras! Yer almost as bad as some of the Prima Donnas on the Gloomy board! Lighten up FFS!!!!
VDG
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So does the Norge 8V. It's a big, fan assisted, thermostat controlled oil cooler.
Look, I may be quite wrong. It may be an entirely NEW motor. But just consider a few things.
Piaggio have spent a LOT of money developing the 8V oil/air cooled motor and are continuing to make refinements to it and use it in a variety of platforms. Developing a new motor from scratch, (And that is effectively what the 8V motor is.) is NOT cheap and would of been looked at as a mid to long term project, especially for a small brand like Guzzi which has a notoriously conservative and fickle customer base and THEY are who the new Cali is squarely aimed at. Most riders who aren't rusted on to the Guzzi brand and engine architechture aren't going to look at something like a Cali when they can get a Shadow or an HD cheaper.
I found a higher resolution image from the show and blew it up in photoshop and tried a few other tricks to get a better look at the front end of the engine...better image at http://automotivetreenplus.com/moto-guzzi-california-cruiser-will-v7-launches-scrambler/2012-moto-guzzi-california-cruiser/
The bit that looks like a radiator/cooler I reckon at most is an oil cooler or some kind of strenghtener for the front of the engine. My only reason for saying that is that there only seems to be 2 engine mounts at the front that can be seen just in front of cylinder. I'd put my money on the oil cooler. This does seem to be a bored out version of the latest generation of engines, this makes sense as there is plenty of room to bore them out that bit further. The heads do seem to be a different shape so could be new, if they are I imagine they would be able to be bored out to 1800cc in a few years time.
The engine is going to be a structural element as on most bikes which for Guzzi saves a lot of manufacture costs as the current cali frame is very expensive to make so this would help reduce costs or boost profits.
I've been trying to get more details through my dealers and would have gone down to Italy for the celebrations if I wasn't on a plane to Poland as I would hope they would reveal more. I'm hoping the bike will appear next year, if it does I'd certainly consider it as at the moment it's that or a Stelvio.
I like the reduction in chrome....I don't rate Guzzi chrome and those wheels have got to be easier to clean than spokes on my Stone. I reckon it would make a great cruiser/tourer.
I imagine the mudguards, tank and tail are all plastic...again a plus point for me as it's less work on salt encrusted roads in winter, the only concern being if the engine is hot it will warm a full tank of fuel very quickly so no filling up after a long ride.
Brakes look powerful enough to stop a freight train and I would imagine the engine and transmission would be easier to remove than a current cali so hopefully fairly simple maintainance.
My only concerns are the size of the fuel tank, how much volume is lost to the heads as I like a decent range on a bike and also if it's heavier will it wear the tyres out faster. All important for long tours.
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Jeez! Youse blokes are like a pair of angry, shrieking Queens at the Sydney Mardi-Gras! Yer almost as bad as some of the Prima Donnas on the Gloomy board! Lighten up FFS!!!!
VDG
I'm laughing actually. It's raining cats and dogs so I can't work today. Trolling Lannis is more fun than poking a beehive with a short stick.
I still think a re-tuned 8 valve with more torque would make for a wonderful cruiser engine. I simply don't see why 1400cc's is so objectionable. The 8 valve is the best thing to happen to Guzzi in the last 30 years.
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Don't get me wrong, as long as it's air-cooled, I'll consider it.
At least it should have tubeless tires, external oil filter, stronger charging system, better brakes, probably better suspension and seat than my Jackal.
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Jeez! Youse blokes are like a pair of angry, shrieking Queens at the Sydney Mardi-Gras! Yer almost as bad as some of the Prima Donnas on the Gloomy board! Lighten up FFS!!!!
VDG
I'm laughing actually. It's raining cats and dogs so I can't work today. Trolling Lannis is more fun than poking a beehive with a short stick.
I still think a re-tuned 8 valve with more torque would make for a wonderful cruiser engine. I simply don't see why 1400cc's is so objectionable. The 8 valve is the best thing to happen to Guzzi in the last 30 years.
I'm laughing too. It's called "playin de dozens".
"Yo' momma is so fat ... " It's an old game. And I still don't see why finding 1400cc objectionable is so objectionable.
??? :D Lannis
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Look at the pictures of the 1400 Cali and you an plainly see it is a version of the 8V motor. The 8v has been designed to be bored larger. look at the spigots on the barrels, the walls are a good centimetre + thick.
Despite outward appearances the 8V motor is COMPLETLY DIFFERENT to the old 2-valve pushrod motor.The stud spacing is different and because the idler shaft for the camchain drive doesn't carry cam lobes there are no clearance issues with the big ends of the rods biffing the lobes. Whether that means there is room for further stroke increases I don't know but boriing for capacity is easy.
While it is only my guess I'm suspecting that the reason for the very high domes on the rocker covers is because there wille a second plug in each combustion chamber to combat low speed surging events. They are most likely purely cosmetic. If there is one thing that concerns me about increasing the motor's size it is the possibility of the brather system being unable to cope. Only time will tell whether they have increased it's ability toseparate oil from gas.
also I very much doubt it'll be water-cooled. As I said the pics look like a standard 8V, oil cooled with air assist, motor. The large radiator at the front will simply be a fan-forced oil cooler as is fitted to the Norge 8V.
VDG
Given my general outlook which tries to deny the existence of engines with too many; valves, cams or pumps - I've never looked at the 8 valve enough to even recognize that it was an entirely different engine. In spite of my blindly following Ned Ludd - I take heart in the fact that MG is (or was) producing 3 completely separate engines at the same time as well as 3 different final drives.
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anything that gives you more power but with less weight, less heat, & less bulk
~;
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FI bikes with fuel pumps could have their gas tanks any where on a bike. Why not?
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Why not?
Ask the families or surviving owners of a couple of fuel in frame Victory Visions that burned to a crisp in a collision.
I don't think a fuel tank up front is a good idea.
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I'm all for a 1400 if it's efficient for the HP/TQ if not I'll keep my 1064. But I really don't like the styling of this new Cali. Tank and exhaust are all wrong for me. I agree the wheels would be easier to clean but I dont even clean mine as they are now (that's what rain is for). All for the new bike just not liking the way it looks. Scrambler looks sweet tho. To each their own I suppose.
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If I wanted to be like you I'd cut 4 inches off my penis, gain 200 pounds and give myself a lobotomy with a Dremel.
Oh, snap! Maybe it's wrong to encourage such comments, but I LOL'ed.
On a more civil note, Lannis, do you really think MG is chasing H-D and Victory with the California 1400? Really? Please explain how a longitudinal 1400cc 90 degree v-twin with shaft drive is at all like a tranverse 1700 or 1800cc narrow-angle v-twin with belt drive. They don't look, feel, sound, or ride at all alike. Apples and oranges.
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Actually Youcan, lots of people here usually hate to hear it but there's long been parallels between MG & HD.
The entire California line has always been called the Italian Harley for a reason.
My Jackal feels very similar to Harleys in a lot of ways. Certainly more similar than different.
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Actually Youcan, lots of people here usually hate to hear it but there's long been parallels between MG & HD.
The entire California line has always been called the Italian Harley for a reason.
My Jackal feels very similar to Harleys in a lot of ways. Certainly more similar than different.
The California line traces directly to 1967 Harley police bike via LAPD and CHP.
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The only thing I don't like about the Cali 1400 is I don't know more about it and that I don't have one in my garage. I must have looked at the goofy picture Piaggio showed months ago 1000 times so far. IMHO. it has the potential to replace both my Griso 8v and the Valkyrie Intetstate. From the bad Piaggio photo, even the seat to floor board distance looks good.
Time will tell,
Mark
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Lannis, you act so old I'm tempted to ask if rainbows were in black and white when you were a kid. There is nothing wrong with fast motorcycles or cars. Folks who enjoy them are, for the most part, normal. I like Hayabusa's but prefer the ZX-14 and I know what a terrific sport touring bike one would make. I'd ride a Boss Hoss with a Corvette engine just to see what it was like. I also have a weak spot for BSA A10's, Douglas Dragonfly's and Ariel Square Fours so it's not like I measure the worth of every bike by its' power output alone.
One of the most important spec's in a cruiser(for me) is the 50-80mph roll on performance. If Guzzi is going to put one out and not make excuses for it...then it should have more than 80ft/lbs at the rear wheel. The touring Harley's all do and their fuel injection is light years better than Guzzi's. I just rode a friend's brand new Streetglide the other day and it takes the throttle better than any other FI bike I can remember riding. It's perfect. My 1200 Sport was a stumbling, surging pig by comparison even after all the work I did to it. It seems like some people want to keep patting themselves on the back for riding an antiquated, slow, Italian anachronism with piss poor resale value. I'd prefer riding a Guzzi with some actual nuts.
A CARC cruiser with a bored out 8 valve is bad how? Just because it might displace 1400cc's? That is one of the dumbest things I've seen posted on this forum. Hand wringing and forehead slapping amongst the Guzzisti! Poor bastards!
Feel free to go back to spirited discussions about the joys of the Metzeler 880, steelcut oats and how you used to sit next to Jesus in grade school. Thank you....please drive through.
I know. I feel really bad now. You're like that World's Most Interesting Man in the beer commercial - a wild, crazy, popular guy with a long, honorable juvenile rap sheet who loves fast cars and motorcycles, good liquor, strong drugs, and blazing hot women.
I've always wanted to be like that; living life to the fullest, living right on the edge, seeing every experience through a focused blend of testosterone and adrenalin, and feeling sorry for the poor, slogging slugs like me that just don't know how to get the most out of life with their pitiful little 750cc motorcycles and boring, sad experiences.
Well, there's always hope, I guess. Maybe some day I'll have a Walter Mitty moment, break Western, and for one shining, glowing moment experience life the way you do. That way, it will all be worth while ..... I will have been ALMOST LIKE Vermont John ..... :D :D
The fact you're an old, miserable, judgemental tool who enjoys pissing in everyone's Cheerio's is only partially relevant. How is a 1400cc CARC equiped Guzzi a bad thing? You keep going on and on about how Guzzi is going to fail and that bigger isn't better. What is your real issue with the bike? Is it the 1400cc displacement? Would 1300cc meet with your approval? Should it be a 750? Last I knew you were raving about how great your 95hp Stelvio 8 valve is compared to your previous bike so you strike me as a gigantic hypocrit. Why aren't you hauling your fat ass around on a Falcone with your wife and camping gear on the back? Could it be that the Stelvio's 1200cc's is...gasp...better suited for that task? Could it be that bigger really is better in some cases?
If by being like me you have an open mind about motorcycles and enjoy all sizes, styles, shapes and aspects of them...then that's great. If I wanted to be like you I'd cut 4 inches off my penis, gain 200 pounds and give myself a lobotomy with a Dremel.
lol. i too had the penis reduction surgery. thought i was the only one.
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Okay, my 2 cents worth. The fuel tank looks absurdly low and with it pushed down over the frame and cylinder heads so much, it may not be a fuel tank at all. Several bikes have their fuel tanks under the rider and the "tank" is just a cover. What if MG chose to lower the center of mass down and forward by placing the fuel tank at the front of the engine? What I'm seeing on that photograph would certainly fall in the large enough for a fuel tank category. Well, it's a weird thought but Moto Guzzi has been the first at several things in motorcycle history, why not the first with a fore-mounted fuel tank? I'm not going to ponder how that would work in a severe fork-bending accident nor how handling would change in regards to the tank fill.
I hadn't thought about them moving the fuel tank or doing as they did with the Stelvio where the tank is just a cover for the tank.
Looking again at the picture there would be room for a large tank if it ran down from under the "dummy tank" to the space between the side panels. That would also drop the centre of gravity quite nicely and allow them to put all the electrics under the dummy tank.
Tye more I look at that structure in front of the engine the more I think it's a plastic cover, the top section over an oil cooler I suspect. I was looking at the way the light reflects of the black material just in front of the bend on the exhaust. It reflects as if it's not smooth but rather that slightly rough plastic material you get, bit like the 1100 Breva had as a cover low down on the engine.
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Actually Youcan, lots of people here usually hate to hear it but there's long been parallels between MG & HD.
The entire California line has always been called the Italian Harley for a reason.
My Jackal feels very similar to Harleys in a lot of ways. Certainly more similar than different.
[/quote]
The California line traces directly to 1967 Harley police bike via LAPD and CHP.
[/quote]
Goose has an excellent point. The California Vintage is an outstanding recreation -- with modern updates -- on the original Guzzi 'police' bikes. If you read any of the many available histories of Guzzi, you will see that this series was designed and very successfully marketed to the LAPD, CHP, and many other police departments worldwide as a rival to the Harley police models. The now discontinued Cal Vintage recreated the look and function of the 60s and 70s police specials using the latest 1100 motor with fuel injection and other upgrades, triple Brembos, steering damper and the best available suspension to build the 'best Bagger Harley never built'.
When I saw the proposed 1400 that is supposed to replace it, my dealer found the last new in crate for me and I bought.
What did I get? A great long range, fast, comfortable and dead reliable ride. On runs on our wide open and sometimes winding roads here in SE Wisconsin, my sport bike friends are amazed they have trouble keeping up with me. At the end of a two or three hour run, I they get off a bit stiff or tired and I feel as good as I did when I started. Can't cover ground as fast or go around corners like that on a Harley.
Any issues with the stock Vintage? Only one, the standard windshield is too short, and buffeting leads to vibrations felt strongly through your hemet at anything over 65. Easy cure is the taller, wider Rifle screen, a five or ten minute bolt on to the stock mounts. Cruise in comfort at 80 if you want at 4000 rpm, right in the fat part of the power band.
Sometimes newer is not necessarily better. For what this bike was designed for, the 1100 provides all the power needed. Dave
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My only concerns are the size of the fuel tank, how much volume is lost to the heads as I like a decent range on a bike and also if it's heavier will it wear the tyres out faster. All important for long tours.
Seem to me they moved the tank under the seat and the electronics where the the tank used to be, remove the cover and its all there in one place. Luckily it still looks oil cooled with better valve covers for cooling and looks. I believe they have a winner alla Stelvio/Norge and Piaggio(Aprilia) has done a good job with quality/engineering/tuning, the results of their vast top level racing experience. I look forward to a cruiser that can keep up with most of the large bore cruisers sold here in the "off the line 'torque' acceleration" with a Guzzi nameplate on it.
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A tank cover isn't necessarily a bad idea if they actually care about the possibility of tank expansion/deformation when exposed to ethanol.
Yeah you can still have problems, but as long as they build a little room for the expanion at least you won't ever get visible warpong or other deformation.
I kinda think that's why they went that route on the newer Ducatis (like Jenn's Monster).
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A tank cover isn't necessarily a bad idea if they actually care about the possibility of tank expansion/deformation when exposed to ethanol.
Yeah you can still have problems, but as long as they build a little room for the expanion at least you won't ever get visible warpong or other deformation.
I kinda think that's why they went that route on the newer Ducatis (like Jenn's Monster).
A tank cover is also a great place to stuff an airbox and ECU. As soon as you move the fuel, it allows you to relocate other items that were previously hard to reach. It would be awfully nice to pop the "tank" cover and have a fuse panel, ECU, main harness and air filter element all easily accessible.
If the fuel is under the seat, that frees up a lot of room between and over the cylinders. It could be a very nice mechanical/electrical layout.
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Getting a little impatient waiting for any news on the Cal 1400. Even governments can't keep a secret this long. Has anyone heard any rumblings as to if or when this this bike might appear? Possibly some of our European members might have some info, by virtue of being closer to the source.
Yeah...I bought the white Norge instead...I don't know...It does what they say it will do though...LOL...
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I'm well aware of the parallels between MG and H-D. You guys are missing my point.
The engine architecture and drivetrain of the California 1400 is so obviously different from the H-D and Victory twins, that it is silly to claim that MG is "chasing" either of them. It should be obvious to anyone that MG is trying to remain competitive in the marketplace while maintaining its own unique character. MG does not chase anyone; they march to the sound of their own kazoo.
Even if MG had its sights on H-D, the target moved. H-D just announced that the 103 cu in engine is now standard on all tourers, and on some other models as well. So, the 1400 8V is still the runt of the litter.
OTOH, Victory... now, THERE's a company that is chasing H-D. Mechanically, their bikes shamelessly ape the Motor Company's designs. Even their swoopy styling smacks of one-upsmanship.
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Chasing HD doesn't mean shamelessly ape (at least to me).
Yamaha (Star) holds the prize for shamelessly aping Harley.
But that doesn't mean MOST "cruisers" aren't chasing Harley.
I'm not sure where I'd draw the line, but an air-cooled twin with similar lines and chrome (or a blacked out look these days) is certainly more ape (or piglet in this case) than pony.
Hondas ape em bad enough despite the water cooling.
Kawis too though for a while they aped Indian more.
Suzuki's ape em, with some odd angles thrown in for "differentiation".
Victory apes with some, but they went their own way with the Vision.
Triumph only apes with a few models: America, Speedmaster, & new Thunderbird.
Indian, well duh.
They're all chasing a piece of the "cruiser" pie and I don't blame them for wanting it,:though I do blame some of them for unoriginality.
Honda should have kept the Magna instead of the VTX.
Yamaha should have prettied up the virago.
Triumph should have kept to the Bonnie and made a smaller R3 as their "cruiser".
I liked the BMW R1200R
The CALI never should have had a flaccid whale penis for a tank, it shoulda had an ambo/eldo look.
now all that said I think the look of this new Cali is a step in the right direction, less chasing and more it's own way. And maybe it's my next bike instead of that RK I've been kicking around for so long. It's only 60cc's away from my "perfect" tourer so.
I guess it's a Goldilocks thing. One's too small,;the other too big and I'm looking for JUST RIGHT.
fingers crossed.
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Americans anyway, do tend to like big jugs held up nice and pretty.
Forza Moto Guzzi,
Mark
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Americans anyway, do tend to like big jugs help up nice and pretty.
Forza Moto Guzzi,
Mark
Thanks, I needed a laugh to start my day. Dave
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Triumph only apes with a few models: America, Speedmaster, & new Thunderbird.
The CALI never should have had a flaccid whale penis for a tank, it shoulda had an ambo/eldo look.
Normally i don't disagree with you, but I think the Triumph ape is a bit of a stretch, not like they put a vtwin in, they just made some cruisers
IF they would have put one of those butt ugly tanks on my Stone, I would be on another forum talking about my Triumph Triple.
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I really like the look of the new Cali from the pics and I don't see it as a HD copy at all. I do have some concerns though that will have to wait till it's out. The foot controls seem a little far forward for my taste. What kind of range will it have? What hard bags will be available, etc.
If it does have a new motor, water cooled or ???, that won't bother me but I would hold off buying one for a few years. Very difficult for a small manufacturer to get something completely right and I don't have a dealer nearby that I trust to make sure any problems get taken care of properly.
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I don't see this as much as Guzzi trying to copy H-D as much as following the model that Triumph did with their new Thunderbird, which appears to have been pretty successful, even if it isn't right up my alley.
-Steve
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Moto Guzzi has been chasing the HD dollar since their inception of the LAPD models. Ambassador/Eldorado, T3 and the like.
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Triumph only apes with a few models: America, Speedmaster, & new Thunderbird.
The CALI never should have had a flaccid whale penis for a tank, it shoulda had an ambo/eldo look.
Normally i don't disagree with you, but I think the Triumph ape is a bit of a stretch, not like they put a vtwin in, they just made some cruisers
Yeah, but come-on you don't buy the crap that Triumph tries to sell about the America and Speedmaster (inspired by Triumph choppers of the 60s). Come on man - YES I GIVE THEM CREDIT FOR STICKING TO THEIR MOTOR, but still, forward controls, lowered chassis, raked front end - it smells, it stinks of something, oh yeah the typical Harley poserdom crap (for the record, I can't stand Harleys that are lowered, raked and forward controlled too).
The Thunderbird is worse, it's Aping a Kawasaki Vulcan 500ltd which is in turn Aping a Harley. ICK. No thanks.
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I will stick with my 99 EVs ...the paint jobs are the best.....Cal Vin in white is nice but tube wheels should not be on that bike...
RichEV...
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What does "ape" come from? Can't figure this one out, though it's likely staring me in the face, but I can't seem to disengage the clutch on this one.
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What does "ape" come from? Can't figure this one out, though it's likely staring me in the face, but I can't seem to disengage the clutch on this one.
To "ape" is to mimic or to copy, taken from the way a monkey or ape will copy what a human does. Usually a bit of a perjorative.
Lannis
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Some of you guys seem to think that anyone who makes a cruiser is copying Harley. Truth be told, Harley cruisers, baggers and tourers have sort of become the standard by which many other motorcycles in those segments are compared to. Sort of like how the iPhone has become the standard by which other cell phones are compared to.
If you really think that Moto Guzzi has been chasing Harley, you must also have to agree they've been wildly unsuccessful. I think Harley likely sells more pairs of size 10 boots in California than Piaggio sells Moto Guzzis worldwide. Guzzis tend to be going their own way in most cases and for the most part, have done a good job. The more time Piaggio spends on Moto Guzzi the better the bikes become. I suspect most current Moto Guzzi riders would bail on the marque if they became anything near as 'popular' as any Harley.
I have no axe to grind against Harley. I wish them all the continued success they can muster. I really like their touring model with the frame mounted fairing and would buy one in a minute if I had the funds available.
YMMV,
Mark
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I don't understand the concern regarding copying, imitating, apeing, ripping-off and the like. Whoever said that no motorcycle or car, plane, fork or shoe should have to stand on it's own style, design or function merit beyond that which may be protected by a patent, trademark or registration of originality?
I have a friend very high up in the custom/production tactical knife trade and to listen to them blather on about some other maker manipulating a piece of steel or stone in a way that imitates them just flat cracks me up. How many different original and fundamental ways can one hold a sharpened edge with a one handed tactical tool? If you think yours is a new idea - go to a good applicable museum or library and find out different and then be sure to pass the credit back. Now I know that you can fill following posts with infinite variations on the tool but as knives go, there aren't really many patented (protectable) styles.
For bikes? excluding the obvious extreme variations - they are, by the millions; a front steering, braking and support wheel, a rear braking, power and support wheel and a frame and or engine in between. Then throw on a seat, bars and other minor stuff.
Who really cares whether a design or style is repeated? If it sells the consumer says it's valid. If it doesn't sell, the consumer says otherwise.
Another way to look at it is that one can say with a fair amount of certainty that if it weren't for competition - mimicking or otherwise - that HD would still be cranking out leaky, creaky, wallowing dinosaurs.... I've had a few and while I appreciated them on their own merit, I'm damn glad HD took note of the industry "flatterers".
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I wouldn't necessarily say that anyone who makes a cruiser is aping Harley, at least not in a critical way that it makes me dislike them. However, I concede that the way they sorta define the market it's not easy to do.
That said, why the concern?
Because I'm an enthusiast of motor vehicles (cycles, cars, trucks, boats etc) and as such there's an element of passion in any vehicle I like. If there's no passion - if it's an unoriginal clone that is aping someone else's success than I don't care for it.
Cars are probably harder than bikes to find what I like these days, as so many of them are just FWD bars of soap with wheels. But there are so many manufacturers that I can still find a bunch.
Subaru's for their dedication to longitudinal engined FWD and oppossed motors!
Audi for Quatro
VW for taking styling chances and for their pursuit of performance on many levels
BMW for their steadfast dedication to RWD and putting the driving experience in the forefront
Mini for performance in an economy size
Jeep for continued dedication to off-roadable vehicles
more recently for me Nissan and Mitsubishi for taking chances on styling.
But brands that do almost nothing but the same thing as each other loose me - even models from some of the above brands fall into those categories.
Now back to bikes. Same goes for them but in SPADES as the passion is even greater.
I can find something neat that I like from just about any brand, but it is NOT going to be one of the models they are aping from someone else in MOST cases. Maybe some exceptions could be argued in the W650/W800, though in that case they are at least aping themselves who aped BSA all those years ago. And as such it is something unique to the market today - i.e. a bevel drive cam vertical twin! That overshadows to me any claims of aping neo-Triumphs (not to mention they beat the neo-Trumpets to the market).
Cali's are pretty damn aped, not nearly as bad as say a typical v-twin Star, but maybe halfway there. That said, I tend to give more slack to aping style if the engine architecture is at least unique and well, the longitudinal V-twin Guzzi makes muster there, at least for me. I'm sure to others it's still aping.
So find your own line and stick to it, that's cool. You know mine.
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That's how our 'merican friends like 'em - HUGE :o
I like the bike though - panniers can go.
Ciao
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I like that they broke up the formally massive gas tank with the heads, but the heads look very tall.
Should be interesting.
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Looks like a Guzzified Honda Rune to me... :P
--
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Looks like a Guzzified Honda Rune to me... :P
???
REALLY, might be time to check that eyeglass perscription... :P ;)
I kinda dig it personally, though I'm not in love with the bags.
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Looks like a Guzzified Honda Rune to me... :P
???
REALLY, might be time to check that eyeglass perscription... :P ;)
I kinda dig it personally, though I'm not in love with the bags.
And what is there to love about the seat?
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Looks like a Guzzified Honda Rune to me... :P
???
REALLY, might be time to check that eyeglass perscription... :P ;)
I kinda dig it personally, though I'm not in love with the bags.
And what is there to love about the seat?
The SHAPE is nice enough ;-T, but the color, not so much... :BEER:
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I still can't figure out where the fuel is. If it is in the usual place, it's hard to imagine there is room for 5 gallons with thos giant looking cylinders cutting through the tank. If it's under the seat, that will result in a lot of rearward bias(which may be partly why they stretched the wheelbase?).
I love it, though I agree about the bags. They remind me of Corbin Beetle Bags. I'd skip those and mount a set of big Pelicans. The old Krauser bags would look classy on the bike. I really like the shrouded forks(or are they just black tubes like the 1200 Sport?). Love the seat and would want a chrome rack on the back. I hope the bike doesn't weigh more than 700lbs. The more I look at it, the more huge it appears. Like a stretched and lowered Road King.
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The bags don't bother me. I've always kinda of liked Corbin's beetle bags on certain Japanese motorcycles. They never seem to look right on Harleys though.
The bike does look super long. They need to take about a foot out of the middle. Also, the engine's visual mass has increased especially around & under the alternator area. Perhaps the engine would look better and less massive if it was painted black.
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Visually I'd prefer the negative of this bike.
I like dark wheels and motor, and light bodywork...
...but that's probably not a deal breaker.
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I still can't figure out where the fuel is. If it is in the usual place, it's hard to imagine there is room for 5 gallons with thos giant looking cylinders cutting through the tank.
The fuel is probably in the fuel tank.
If you look at Paul Minnaert's pictures they have changed the intake. The air filter looks like it's under the seat now.
(http://s1.postimage.org/7g4vaqro/DSC02081_Small.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7g4vaqro/)
With a Cali if you just remove the air filter cover and add a plate to the lower part of the tank to use the space it adds about a gallon.
The seat is the standard Cali Skunk seat. :BEER:
The bags match the bike. ;-T
The bike does look super long. They need to take about a foot out of the middle. Also, the engine's visual mass has increased especially around & under the alternator area. Perhaps the engine would look better and less massive if it was painted black.
I always thought increasing the Cali's wheel base would make it a better for 2-up. By taking some of the weight off the rear wheel.
And the motor is supposed to look big. ;D
The floor boards look to far forward for me. But for the cruiser market they're probably about right. ~;
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I like the overall look, but the floorboards that far forward would likely be a deal breaker for me. Hopefully they'll have a sportier version with pegs in a more appropriate place.
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I like the overall look, but the floorboards that far forward would likely be a deal breaker for me. Hopefully they'll have a sportier version with pegs in a more appropriate place.
They do look a bit too far forward...
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I resized this spy shot of the new prototype. The original (hat tip rocker59!) was foreshortened by the angle and I stretched it out a bit to look right.
(http://s2.postimage.org/nbzaf678/DSC02092_cali1_M.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/nbzaf678/)
That motor looks big!
I dunno...... ???...looks like a biggie....tough to judge sometimes by photo alone....will have to see one in person. Are they coming to the USA? "An Italian Road King..." :) 8) ;-T ;-T
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As beautiful as this Moto Guzzi is and inticing with that big mill, I can't consider buying a new Guzzi until they catch up with the other brands and go with modern shocks and a suitable two-up seat for long-distance rally bopping.
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At least the bags have a lid rather than a door.
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That's one fine looking motorcycle. I would certainly consider purchasing one.
My wish list for MG:
A thoroughly modern (or at least as modern as current) Eldorado w/1100-1200 engine
Mini Stelvio Dual sport/adventure & Mini Norge based on 750 (would be nice to have an updated 4 valve)
I like:
V7 variations (already done)
V12 variations (rumored)
California 1400
Of course the Griso, Norge, Stelvio, & Breva round out the offerings
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I like it!
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As beautiful as this Moto Guzzi is and inticing with that big mill, I can't consider buying a new Guzzi until they catch up with the other brands and go with modern shocks and a suitable two-up seat for long-distance rally bopping.
It's really more than that...much more....(IMHO)
Like dramatically improving the overall parts / warranty / customer service (listen up Piaggio!!) :o :o ::) ::)....... AND improving their support to all their dealers in the USA.
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I don't hate it.. ;D
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I've been away for a bit so maybe I missed it....Where's the radiator? Still a work in progress?
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Like dramatically improving the overall parts / warranty / customer service (listen up Piaggio!!) :o :o ::) ::)....... AND improving their support to all their dealers in the USA.
Geeez, everything I've heard/seen lately leads me to believe they have been improving overall parts quality.
Plus I've heard almost nothing but positive reports about warranty and customer service.
Soooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooo perhaps they're on the right track there too.
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I think the "Skunk" seat - which I love but understand other's views for sure - needs color justification elsewhere on the bike as with the Calvin stripes. As far as the bags - I can't begin to imagine why the bottom edge is not horizontal. The way they are they neither follow a visible frame line, the ground line nor any exhaust line; top, center or bottom. Tipping the bags would also come closer to mimicking the rear fender.
In general, I'm likin' it and though I wouldn't give up my Calvin I would consider it as a post theft/destruction option.
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The MSRP is going to be sobering on this. While most European manufacturer's are making up market share on the Japanese in leaps in bounds due to respective currency valuations, Guzzi is still pricing their bikes with a premium. A Ducati 848 EVO costs 12,995, yet Guzzi has the gall to ask 13,500 for a Black Eagle.
I'll bet they put an 18 thousand dollar price tag on the Cali 1400.
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I'll bet they put an 18 thousand dollar price tag on the Cali 1400.
That would put it firmly in Road King territory.
But for that, they'd better include passing lamps, quick-detach windshield, quick-detach hard bags...
IF I HAD TO GUESS I'd say that a dressed version of this might come in around $16k (that's a very loose guess based on current model pricing).
If it comes in naked at that price or higher ouch, my next bike will more likely be a Harley.
But I'll remain cautiously optimistic.
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Geeze - I hope it has tubes! :BEER:
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I love it, though I agree about the bags. They remind me of Corbin Beetle Bags. I'd skip those and mount a set of big Pelicans.
"I dislike the factory bags so much that I want to mount camera storage cases to the bike to give it that 'it'll survive a a TSA thrashing' kind of look."
The cases, if top loading, are not that bad. They go with the lines of the bike.
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I love it, though I agree about the bags. They remind me of Corbin Beetle Bags. I'd skip those and mount a set of big Pelicans.
"I dislike the factory bags so much that I want to mount camera storage cases to the bike to give it that 'it'll survive a a TSA thrashing' kind of look."
The cases, if top loading, are not that bad. They go with the lines of the bike.
LOL. No..I really just dislike overly styled saddlebags. It limits their carrying capacity. I think Krausers look classy and I like the fact Pelican cases are bomb proof.
A Stelvio with ABS is what, 16 grand? This will be more. If it's the halo bike, it'll be priced accordingly. The MSRP of a CalVin is 15 grand. I would love if the new Cali was 16 grand but I honestly can't see that happening. New engine, new chassis, new drivetrain.......it'll be closer to 20k than 15.
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Hope you're wrong John, but time will tell...
Geeze - I hope it has tubes! :BEER:
:D ;) :D
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should I buy one? are the cams ok? if i super super super size the picture it looks like they have or are about to fail. i think. what oil
is ok to use in it? my dealer doesn't carry the correct oil.
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While it's not my cup of tea, I like it! I especially like the wheel design. The bags look fine to me. I just can't ride a cruiser style. Hope they do well with it. But, as mentioned before, the whole dealer network thing has to be made more consumer friendly to get new business.
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I like the overall look, but the floorboards that far forward would likely be a deal breaker for me. Hopefully they'll have a sportier version with pegs in a more appropriate place.
You're in luck! Griso!
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should I buy one? are the cams ok? if i super super super size the picture it looks like they have or are about to fail. i think. what oil
is ok to use in it? my dealer doesn't carry the correct oil.
Yes, you definitely shouldn't buy one. ;-T
Your clarity on "super super" sizing the picture let you down, If you had an Apple, you'd clearly see that the cams will be fine as it will have the new non-lube, flat-roller system and you have viewed them before the magical 10,000 mile gnomes snuck in at night to provide the secret post break-in performance upgrade (nay-sayers be hanged).
Any oil at all will be perfectly acceptable in the role of indicating your backwards thinking as a lubri-progressive owner.
It really doesn't matter whether your dealer has the correct oil or not as; the dealer doesn't really exist, will soon cease to exist, will fail to acknowledge the existence of you or your bike or will don his "Wonder Woman" bracelets of resistance when you come around.
Oh, and make certain to find where the hose clamps go! Anyhow, that's some of the info I've gleaned so far.
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If this comes in to the U.S. at > 16 grand, I predict > 50% of them will be sold at blowout prices after they have sat for a looong time. I would hope that they are targeting to sell it in the same price range as the Cal Vin.
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Any oil at all will be perfectly acceptable
Thanks Cruzzi, looks like everything will be OK. The local scooter dealer really wants to add Guzzi to their boutique. He recommended melted butter. He also said it was handy to have in the sump as corn is in season. Maybe after supper I'll fashion my own cob pipe.
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I would hope that they are targeting to sell it in the same price range as the Cal Vin.
Cal Vins sell cheap, way below MSRP.
Do you mean "Cal Vin selling price", or "Cal Vin MSRP"?
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I think they put the CalVin seat on there to go with the bags. The prototype shown earlier this year had a different seat.
Compare side-by-side photos of a Cal Vin and a Cal 14.
Though the latest pic shows a skunk seat, it does not appear to be the same as the Cal Vin.
Look at the nose of the seat on both bikes.
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-L5vD7pF/0/M/DSC02092-cali1-M.jpg)
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-CvprkWr/0/M/imgashx1-M.jpg)
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I've been away for a bit so maybe I missed it....Where's the radiator? Still a work in progress?
After seeing this latest bike, my guess is that we were faked-out by the front cowling on the earlier bike, meaning it's not got the rumored liquid-cooled heads.
The oil cooler is clearly visible on the black Cal 14.
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I've been away for a bit so maybe I missed it....Where's the radiator? Still a work in progress?
After seeing this latest bike, by guess is that we were faked-out by the front cowling on the earlier bike, meaning it's not got the rumored liquid-cooled heads.
The oil cooler is clearly visible on the black Cal 14.
I hope you're right
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You guys kill me with your idea of pricing. Guzzi is going up scale, both in quality and pricing, that's were they are planing to carve their larger than current niche. I will eat crow if this bike is less than 16K, I can see it fully equipped at $18,000 easy. This bike looks to be squarely aimed at the Road King. I think the guy that has had 3 Road Kings already, and is looking for something a little different, but still carrying authenticity that only old continuously operated brands like H-D, BMW, and Guzzi have, is the target buyer. And since BMW doesn't make anything to compete, Guzzi is going to be sitting pretty.
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It's not aimed at the RK if it's equipped like a Black Eagle
I'd argue the Cal-Vin was aimed at the RK when introduced, but even it's MSRP was THOUSANDS less.
So we'll see, but don't laugh too hard till we see the final product.
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You guys kill me with your idea of pricing. Guzzi is going up scale, both in quality and pricing, that's were they are planing to carve their larger than current niche. I will eat crow if this bike is less than 16K, I can see it fully equipped at $18,000 easy. This bike looks to be squarely aimed at the Road King. I think the guy that has had 3 Road Kings already, and is looking for something a little different, but still carrying authenticity that only old continuously operated brands like H-D, BMW, and Guzzi have, is the target buyer. And since BMW doesn't make anything to compete, Guzzi is going to be sitting pretty.
I would say that is a pretty small market and those people are also ones that I think will expect a more extensive and higher quality dealer network than Guzzi currently has.
Everyone knows the overall motorcycle market is smaller than it was a few years ago when every would-be biker was buying something with home equity. That means in order for Guzzi to grow it's sales, they have to take market share from other brands. Not sure they can do that on looks and heritage alone. I believe value is going to be a bigger factor in most bike sales and if this bike is going to be priced as high as a Road King, I think it's gonna be a tough road.
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If I was going to spend that many dineros on a RK wannabe, I'd spend it on the real thing instead of a subsitute.
Not for me thank you
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The market determines prices.
Piaggio cannot just say Guzzi is a premium brand, demanding premium prices, and have people knocking down the doors to pay MSRP. The past seven or eight years has shown that Guzzi management has repeatedly overpriced the bikes in the USA market by 25% - 30%. Year-end blowout sales prove that.
Piaggio also cannot just decide how many bikes they will sell and produce them. The market sets demand. Piaggio painfully discovered that after the 2006/2007 production ramp-up.
The bikes have to be desireable.
The reason Harley Davidson is the leading seller of big street-going motorcycles is that they created an image. They created a demand. And, when demand was at its highest, they strictly managed supply, in order to keep up the demand. People want Harleys. I don't know that any other company can do what HD has done, and I don't know that I want Guzzi to do it.
The first thing HD riders ask me about my Guzzis is, "where's the nearest dealer". When my answer is in the hundreds of miles, thier faces always go blank. You see, the dealership experience is a huge part of the Harley experience. People want to stop at HD dealers to see and to be seen. Piaggio will never have that in the USA. They just won't.
I know it would only take a few hundred converts per year to be a big deal, but honestly, I just don't see Guzzi pulling many repeat HD customers away from thier brand. It's just not going to happen in any significant numbers.
Pulling non-committed riders off of all brands, I can see. Basically, Piaggio are going to have to pick a few riders up here, and a few riders up there. The Guzzi brand is on the ground floor in the USA. There is no one thing that will make things better. Everything needs to be done, and in coordination, to sell more than a few hundred machines per year here.
I don't doubt that Piaggio will price the poor Cal 14 at $18k in the USA. If/when they do that, it will be a repeat performance of the Cal Vin, the Breva Sport, and every other Guzzi in the USA over the past few years. ie: great deals at the end of the year.
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Hate to say it, but it looks like a Cali II saddle... not only that but the early version...
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The floorboards are WAY too far forward for me to have any interest in it.
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Hmm...
(http://s3.postimage.org/jqfuvav8/DSC02092_cali1_M.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jqfuvav8/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/jqo4k1c4/353_2007_Yamaha_Midnight_Stratoliner_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jqo4k1c4/)
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Ok, I'm gonna try to respond point for point ala Kev M style.
Kev M "It's not aimed at the RK if it's equipped like a Black Eagle" I can't argue with that, but I can conceive of no reason why they would go so far as to design an entire new motorcycle in such a iconic style as the RK and then not equip it similarly.
Mark West "I would say that is a pretty small market and those people are also ones that I think will expect a more extensive and higher quality dealer network than Guzzi currently has." I agree, the existing dealer network is small enough to definitely turn off a percentage of potential buyers. To what extent that is can't be known at this time.
RayB "If I was going to spend that many dineros on a RK wannabe, I'd spend it on the real thing instead of a subsitute.
Not for me thank you" Most RK buyers will remain RK buyers. As I said, I see the typical crossover buyer as a guy who has owned at least a couple RK already and is looking for something a bit different, but not too different. A bike that has a similar panache and class as HD and appeal to his friends who all so understand the HD Guzzi similaritiey. The number of these buyers is certainly not huge, perhaps only in the hundreds, but possibly under ideal circumstances a 4 digit number. These guys would not consider a 1100cc California Vintage, close buy not close enough.
rocker59 "Piaggio cannot just say Guzzi is a premium brand, demanding premium prices, and have people knocking down the doors to pay MSRP. The past seven or eight years has shown that Guzzi management has repeatedly overpriced the bikes in the USA market by 25% - 30%. Year-end blowout sales prove that.
Piaggio also cannot just decide how many bikes they will sell and produce them. The market sets demand. Piaggio painfully discovered that after the 2006/2007 production ramp-up." Guzzi has been a premium brand in the USA since at least the introduction of the v700, if not earlier. Piaggio is now in the process of reinforcing it's market postion by producing better quality and more desirable motorcycles. I did not say they would be demanding and getting MSRP. Moto Guzzi are much less expspensive to purchase in the US then many other countries where they sell in greater numbers, IE France, Germany. Supply out paced demand for years in the US, accounting or the 'year end blow out sales' you mention. However, that has by enlarge ended. The buyer can no longer walk into every or even most Guzzi dealers and pick up end of year deals on the model in his preferred color and equipment level. Yes, there are still left overs, but they are available in no where near the numbers seen in years past. If you don't believe me, check with a few of the quality dealers here on this board.
"The first thing HD riders ask me about my Guzzis is, "where's the nearest dealer". When my answer is in the hundreds of miles, their faces always go blank. You see, the dealership experience is a huge part of the Harley experience. People want to stop at HD dealers to see and to be seen. Piaggio will never have that in the USA. They just won't.
I know it would only take a few hundred converts per year to be a big deal, but honestly, I just don't see Guzzi pulling many repeat HD customers away from their brand. It's just not going to happen in any significant numbers." I agree with you on the Harley experience, that's a big deal to many, and not at all likely to be duplicated by Guzzi. However, I do think the market is large enough, that done right, with the right product, Guzzi could easily peel off a 'few hundred converts' per year. They did it in the early 70s, it can be done again.
"I don't doubt that Piaggio will price the poor Cal 14 at $18k in the USA. If/when they do that, it will be a repeat performance of the Cal Vin, the Breva Sport, and every other Guzzi in the USA over the past few years. ie: great deals at the end of the year." As far as I'm aware, the Norge 8v, Stelvio, v7 Classic, Griso 8v SE, and perhaps to a lesser extent Griso 8v have all sold at prices that buy and large cold not be classified as "end of year blow outs"
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The earlier picture of the white Cali 14 looked much nicer to me than this one with the black/white seat. I'm absolutely a candidate for this bike which is why I'm so anxious to see the reports of the upcoming European shows. But at $18k, no thank you. IMHO it just doesn't make sense when for similar money you can get the Harley (the real thing) or a Victory (the 'other' real thing). Even at $18k, the new Cali would have to have cruise control, abs, heated seat and grips, power and connection outlets for an iPod, GPS, quick detach trunk, windshield options etc. I just don't see Piaggio/Moto Guzzi doing that. Mostly because I don't think they understand or care about the US market enough.
I've never owned a Harley but I do like them. They have done an excellent job at making better and better motorcycles while also vastly improving their dealer network. What other bike brand can even approach the weekly and monthly parking lot get togethers like Harley? That is a big part of the whole Harley ownership experience I guess. It's not my personal taste but they sure seem to like it and more importantly, it works well. Most other brand dealers barely have a water fountain and/or a vending machine. Not much to build camaraderie around I'm afraid. Several of my local Harley dealers are already sold out of most of the 2012 models. Harley has also cut back considerably on production which will keep their prices up.
But like I said, I'm anxious to see and sit on this new Guzzi. Once done, I'll know what I'll do. Maybe a leftover 2012 Cali 14 will be a bargain around the 2015 model year.
All the best,
Mark
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QUOTE: You see, the dealership experience is a huge part of the Harley experience. People want to stop at HD dealers to see and to be seen. Piaggio will never have that in the USA. They just won't.
I won't argue that....However, in many cases, and especially with the purchase of a "new" motorcycle, riders just want to be able to get their bikes serviced locally, and if there is a problem with parts / warranty, they want it fixed without any hassle / BS / "conzone" - long song in Italian... from the factory. :)
Today's Harley's are very, VERY reliable (in my experience), ;-T and I think Harley has a great worldwide dealer network and excellent customer service (in general) ;-T
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If I was going to spend that many dineros on a RK wannabe, I'd spend it on the real thing instead of a subsitute.
Not for me thank you
I own the real things and it never fails to amaze me that (in the U.S. only) any other manufacture that makes a cruiser style motorcycle is accused of copying Harley. Harley didn't invent the chopper style nor did it invent the motorcycle and the difference in style between a 50's Guzzi and a Harley is that Harley used fatter tires. But all I hear is how everyone is copying Harley, even Ducati was accused of copying the Vrod with their Diavel. How in the world can anyone look at those two motorcycles and confused them as to which is the Harley is ridiculous to the absurd. Harley and Guzzi have different and distinct missions. One makes motorcycles that must look good, form over function, with slow turning engines with lots of torque and comfort and a who gives a shite about horsepower and super lean angles, thats for squids. The other strives for a balance of form, function, and durability and Piaggio knows it well. If I rode my RK like I ride my EV it would have been junk by now. I ride my EV like it was a drag race from 0 to 40 or 0 to 60 or 0 to 80 and on the right roads 0 to 120, hell I never shift before 6Krpm, the RK would melt if abused like the EV and I like Harley a lot but for different reasons.
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Some sweet pics of the new 1400cc motor .... ;-T
(http://s2.postimage.org/14g5xt5wk/MG14008_V_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/14g5xt5wk/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/14g7lciec/MG14008_V_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/14g7lciec/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/14g98vuw4/MG14008_V_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/14g98vuw4/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/14gawf7dw/MG14008_V_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/14gawf7dw/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/14gcjyjvo/MG14008_V_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/14gcjyjvo/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/14ge7hwdg/MG14008_V_6.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/14ge7hwdg/)
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Single throttle body, large external alternator and nicely offset output shaft. So far, I'm liking it. Unfortunately, that tall an engine is going to lead to styling compromises sure to cause years of scoffing and derision.
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(http://s2.postimage.org/4o26yoxta/MG14008_V_3.jpg)
OMG! One-fourth of that engine is missing! An obvious design defect!
;D
[That one was for you, VDG. :-*)
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No design flaw, new way of open air cooling.
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And it sure looks to not be cooled by H2O!
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So, not water cooled anyway then, or did I miss something? ???
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Has to be air/oil cooled.
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So, not water cooled anyway then, or did I miss something? ???
I don't see any water jacket, but I do see lots of very deep cooling fins.
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Hmmm-timing gears...
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The motor is essentially an over-bored version of the current 8V that has been twin plugged. Tall 'Rocker' covers are simply cosmetic add-ons to presumably hide the twin plug caps.
Gear drive for the oil pumps and idler shaft is identical to the system on the current donk. As is the gearbox. Roller tappets are being introduced on Eropean MY 2011 bikes right now.
Looking at the throttle body it appears that it may use a version of the RBW system used on certain 'Prilas, nice!!!
VDG
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Do you suppose the double valve cover could be to knock down noise? I've only ridden a few 8 valves but the vlave clatter seemed louder than my 2 valve in comparison.
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Could be but the roller tappet bike I saw in Sydney was much quieter than any flat tappet 8V I've heard, even the ones with the cams shimmed for end float.
VDG
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Looks like they're simplifying maintenance.
Single throttle body = no balancing (and cheaper build cost).
Easier access to inner plug (without pulling tank) means cheaper maintenance.
I'm getting more excited about the possibilities.
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I am wondering about fuel consumption and capacity.
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Those extra long plugs are sure burried deep, good luck getting a compression tester on that baby.
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Those extra long plugs are sure burried deep, good luck getting a compression tester on that baby.
That or sticking your finger in the hole for TDC. :BEER:
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Those extra long plugs are sure burried deep, good luck getting a compression tester on that baby.
Thank heavens for the second pot! For a moment there I thought ou were being serious! ;D
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the single TB can be set up for improved torque and the elec throttle will help with that too. The covers are as Pete describes, new lids on a similar to current head. The point of the double-decker cover is to decouple the outside surfaces to reduce noise emissions.
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(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-L5vD7pF/0/M/DSC02092-cali1-M.jpg)
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-CvprkWr/0/M/imgashx1-M.jpg)
[/quote]
It looks like they're trying too hard in the styling dept... They need to keep it simple... I like the Cal-Vin's bags and luggage rack and pipes much better. Although I have to admit it is looking a bit dated. I'm having trouble with the new notched tank as well... They should be looking to their classic models like the Eldo and V7 Sport and come up with more modern takes on those with a little bit of practicality, timeless styling and gentle upgrades. This approach has done well for Harley and that might be a direction they should look at from a brand integrity stand point. I guess Harley did introduce the V-Rod and Ducati with the Diavel and Triumph with the Big triple beast. It would seem that if you wanted to sell more bikes you'd come up with a design that had a more universal appeal. Not a love it or hate it approach.
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the single TB can be set up for improved torque and the elec throttle will help with that too. The covers are as Pete describes, new lids on a similar to current head. The point of the double-decker cover is to decouple the outside surfaces to reduce noise emissions.
You mean we won't be able to hear the Italian percussion section?? ???
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Does anyone else see the existing Tonti line gas tank on the California 1400 only with the cylinder cutouts because the engine is so tall?
I've always liked the existing Tonti gas tank and simply don't see the credibility of the flaccid whale penis remarks. Somewhere there's an embarrassed whale wondering why this forum doesn't just leave him out of this.
Mark
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The oil pump gear appears to be nylon fibre or some such. Wonder what the other two are made from. I know a ford 300 6 cylinder had a fiber cam gear and would easily go 200 thousand miles. Just wondering.
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They're probably going for a "power bagger/cruiser" as the bikes you cited and as this is new territory for them I guess a couple of style fumbles are understandable in pre-production.
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I can't quit looking at this engine and that California they're going to put it in. Hmmmmm.
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the single TB can be set up for improved torque and the elec throttle will help with that too. The covers are as Pete describes, new lids on a similar to current head. The point of the double-decker cover is to decouple the outside surfaces to reduce noise emissions.
The new Stelvio has 105hp and 83ft/lbs....if the new engine has 14% more torque to go along with the added displacement(and a single TB for improved torque)....it could had 95ft/lbs. That's stout.
A Hayabusa has 95ft/lbs. Kind of puts things in perspective. Sure...the Cali will weigh 700lbs, but 95ft/lbs is going to make this bike the absolute quickest Guzzi ever made from 50-100mph.
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First impression.....look s a little busy....don't like the valve covers, they look like Bart Simpson's hair. May grow on me.
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First impression.....look s a little busy....don't like the valve covers, they look like Bart Simpson's hair. May grow on me.
That's a good point so I wonder if exaggerated cooling fin depth might not mellow that harsh elevation a bit?
Why yes I did say "mellow that harsh". :BEER:
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I love it and think it's a fantastic update. Since everyone is nitpicking though, here are my likes and dislikes:
The Good.....
The only chrome appears to be the headlight bucket and seat trim ring. the other metal finishes are satin. I like that.
They changed the exhaust tip from the white bike and slightly angled the outlet. It looks a lot better.
Love the seat. It's flat, wide and comfortable looking. I don't believe it's a CalVin seat. The proportions are slightly different.
I like how they changed the fender stay. They lowered it a couple inches so it extends the natural line your eye follows from the lower caliper mount.
The groove in the side panel is a nice touch. It breaks up what could otherwise be a big, flat expanse of plastic.
The black shrouded forks remind me of Eldorado's and that's a good thing.
The rims are a perfect match for the muscular stance of the bike.
LOVE the eagle on the tank. Go ahead...ask me what kind of bike I am riding....I will be proud to tell you I ride a Moto Goootzi!
The Bad.....
The bags look askew. It could be that they're just sitting there not mounted correctly but the Guzzi badge on them is level so that makes me think they're mounted. I could probably live with the shape if the bottom of them ran parallel with the exhaust pipe. Tip the back of the bag down an inch and all that goes away.
Speaking of the exhaust, the header bend is way wrong. It should drop right from the flange in a smooth arc the way it does on the CalVin/Rootbeer/Creamsicle version. It almost looks like the headers rise slightly as they exit the head. It's very....dissonant. It really sticks out to me. Maybe they needed exhaust volume ahead of an in-pipe catalytic convertor and that was the best they could do?
The floorboards look short.
I want to see it without bags. I am hesitant about the rear suspension. I hate the Bellagio because it looks so wrong from the transmission rearward. If this has a giant gap between the fender and tire with no vertical line(like a set of shocks) to break it up...it'll be ugly.
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First impression.....look s a little busy....don't like the valve covers, they look like Bart Simpson's hair. May grow on me.
That's a good point so I wonder if exaggerated cooling fin depth might not mellow that harsh elevation a bit?
Why yes I did say "mellow that harsh". :BEER:
Dude...don't crush my mellow.
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(http://www.freewebs.com/thepipelounge/pipes%20004.jpg)
(http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/RED-SUSPENDERS.jpg)
Why not just admit it. It wouldn't matter WHAT Guzzi or Piaggio do some of you blokes will NEVER be happy! ;D ;D ;D
VDG
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I like it! Still very Guzzi, but moving on from the Tonti.
It does seem as if the Piaggio ownership is beginning to pay off!
The updated Stelvio is another great looking machine!
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First impression.....look s a little busy....don't like the valve covers, they look like Bart Simpson's hair. May grow on me.
Why would you want Bart Simpson's hair?
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Overall, I think the 1400 looks pretty good. The subtle changes in the latest prototype have had a positive effect on the overall image of the motorcycle (looks more like a guzzi than the original) and something tells me they're not done yet. Having said that, I would put that red and white CalVin in my garage in a heartbeat! Gorgeous paint job! ;D Good to see new life for that bike. ;-T
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Perhaps Piaggio is not going after the RK demographic? How about:
1. Big Japanese cruiser/bagger market, guys that never bought into the HD mystique. Price it in between RK and a Vulcan bagger.
2. Former ADV Ewan wannabees with a 30 inch inseam who finally figured out they look like a dweeb on their GS with neon Aerostich.
3. Aging Euro-sport bike enthusiasts that have had one to many trips to the Chiropractor from torture-rack riding positions.
4. Victory riders who realize thier motor is in the chassis 90 degrees off.
Damn, I love gereralizing!
Point is, you don't need to be going after the gay pirate crowd to sell a decent number of uniquely engineered power cruisers. How many Rocket IIIs has Triumph sold to HD crossover types?
I'm not the least bit interested in a bike with twice the cylinder capacity of my Lario, but I like the concept behind the bike.
I still wish they would have brought the Bellagio into the states, though.
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First impression.....look s a little busy....don't like the valve covers, they look like Bart Simpson's hair. May grow on me.
Why would you want Bart Simpson's hair?
Just look at some of the rally photos. There are cases where Bart's hair would be an upgrade. ;D
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Hair?
Oh like on my face ... or back?
:BEER:
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(http://www.freewebs.com/thepipelounge/pipes%20004.jpg)
(http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/RED-SUSPENDERS.jpg)
Why not just admit it. It wouldn't matter WHAT Guzzi or Piaggio do some of you blokes will NEVER be happy! ;D ;D ;D
VDG
I totally dig it. I was just eyeballing it as a critic rather than an enthusiast. I'm actually extremely enthused about the performance potential of the bike. I think it's gonna liquify rear tires.
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Kev, Kev, Kev! If it's on your face its hair. If it's on your back its a PELT!.
VDG
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I thought it was a man sweater?
8)
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Couldn't they come up with a better looking tail light? Looks like something that you could buy at a truck stop.
Dean
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-CvprkWr/0/M/imgashx1-M.jpg)
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well...it seems everyone likes it....except me.
it's missing something...that guzzi touch....
maybe when more pics will arrive we will have a better picture about the bike..
just my 2 cents....
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The cutout could be filled in- by something like a fender skirt or blister that would also cover up the top half of the valve 'domes', making them look half the height.
I think they're trying to make the motor look bigger with the huge faux valve covers. And the cut-outs are part of the that new look.
In WFRFitness's pictures you can see it has two valve covers. The real one and a second one that covers up the sparkplugs & wires with a lot of dead air space in between.
I just hope the faux covers aren't made made out of plastic like a Honda. ~;
(http://s2.postimage.org/14g98vuw4/MG14008_V_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/14g98vuw4/)
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Fine,,, You arbiters of all things weird and growing - what about that vegetation sprouting outa the ears - YOWZA! Hell, our hearing doesn't go south - it's just obstructed.
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Dean,
I agree with you about that tail light, ??? Looks like it came off of a boat trailer. They must have bought a truckload of them years ago and management wants them used until they're gone. :D The Japanese used to be real good at that practice in the late 70s and 80s. The only fly in the ointment on an otherwise beautiful motorcycle. ;D
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I'll bet better pics and the real showroom machine will make some improvement on response to this pic. It does remind me a bit of that Yamaha Midnight I posted side by side earlier in the thread, but oh well. Not a big fan of the skunk seat on this model, IMHO looks much better on the Vintage. And I doubt I'll like the chrome speedometer(?) on the gas tank either as it reminds me too much of generic cruisers. But these are minor quibbles. Just to have a really new guzzi sporting a new engine is something to get excited about. Even i ultimately don't like it, I hope mg sells a bundle of them.
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(http://s4.postimage.org/19zovtj1g/Moto_Guzzi_California_1400_2011_prototipo.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/19zovtj1g/)
I think it's going to be nice.
This one looks nothing like the spy shot photo. It is all of one piece. The design flows and everything looks right. The spy photo looks like somebody got into the parts dept. with a bottle of Grappa.
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I don't like this type of bike so it really doesn't matter to me but I do think they are going in the right direction with the latest spy photo. Way better than the first one. But until it is completely done as in a formal roll out by Piaggio, it is just a photo.
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Some of you must be very color sensitive. When you set all the BS aside, the differences between the two bikes are very subtle. They are not viewed from the same angles which alters perception just a bit too. But by far the most dramatic differences are simply the colors of the paint, and seat.
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I will take a long hard look at this bike when it hits the showroom. Piaggio will definitely have to do more work with the headers and bags, and it will have to have a windshield/fairing option that is actually functional and effective. The skunk seat doesnt do much for me but that is easily fixed. Now they need to get busy and quit screwing around. I realize it is Italy, after all but dont keep us all waiting for 2 more years before they show up.
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Not sure if this one has been posted here before - if not - then enjoy :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwREHnIUdZo
Ciao
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Thanks for the post ;-T I can't wait to see the Scrambler in person, might be trade in time :o ;D :D
The old Bill ;D
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I like the Scrambler too - I think Guzzi has made a load of nice SB's lately.
Now it's about the time where they should look to introduce an additional SB mill for the upcomming models.
Ciao
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I didn't know about the scrambler. Will that be available soon?
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I sure would like to see them compliment those high pipes on the Scrambler with a nice belly pan, head guards and utility rack. Or just give us a Grisetta.
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That's from way back in the early part of the year.
According to Galuzzi, the white Cali was a preproduction mock-up. It's been changed a bit since this was filmed.
The only things being said about the scrambler are that it was a styling exercise and won't make it.
It's not long until EICMA. What Guzzi has on display there will be the tell.
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I'm hoping the final production model looks more like the white mock-up than the latest (black one) that I saw.
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That white mockup Cal is really something.
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I rather like that little V7 Scrambler as well! :) 8) ;-T ;-T Is is coming stateside?
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Am I the only one here afraid to say "the Emporer is naked?" The notched tank so the Big Bore motor will fit looks...
dumb. ::)
Glad it's not even a prototype, but a concept bike intended to stir things up! ;-T
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Glad it's not even a prototype, but a concept bike intended to stir things up! ;-T
Skeeve,
The bike has been taken to prototype. There are running examples in Mandello, according to Galluzzi.
There will probably be one on the podium at EICMA in a few weeks time...
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Am I the only one here afraid to say "the Emporer is naked?" The notched tank so the Big Bore motor will fit looks...
dumb. ::)
Glad it's not even a prototype, but a concept bike intended to stir things up! ;-T
I agree. I don't like the notched tank.
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Well - I do like it! Guzzi obviously want the Cal to look big. Well if that's the goal why not go HUGE. I think it's an original way to do it and I think they succeeded. It's a beaut ;-T
I have always liked the Cal. I like this even better. Looking forward to see the final result at the EICMA.
I sure like the Scrambler too. Nobody was sure the Racer came around, and suddenly it was there.
I think the Scrambler is a hit and I hope Piaggio is smart enough to put it into production.
Ciao
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Frankly I think the Cali is a design balls up. ::)
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Pricing is going to be the deal breaker on these models. If Guzzi puts a 10k MSRP on a Scrambler they are going to languish in warehouses for years. I don't know how large a market for scrambler type bikes there is in the US but I think the price needs to be at or under 8 grand.
Triumph can't sell their Scrambler at list price because when you add a few reasonable accessories, you surpass the price of a new Tiger. The Tiger is more capable in every way than the Scrambler so unless you just really HAVE to own a throwback, it makes no sense.
Guzzi will run into the same problem. There are too many very capable bikes above the 8k price point. Hell, a Kawasaki Versys can be bought for 6 grand and the updated V-Strom 650 ABS has a MSRP of 8 grand. The Versys and V-Strom aren't classic scrambler's in appearance but they do serve that function. A "Scrambler" is a very specific type of machine with a limited appeal(and performance).
Would Guzzi sell a hundred Scramblers a year? How many of those 100 bikes would simply be cannibilizing existing V7C sales? I dunno the answer to either question but think they're questions worth pondering if you work at Piaggio.
If they sell them in the US I'll be happily suprised.
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Johnny, you really need to compare the scrambler to other SHAFT DRIVE bikes in its class. Like . . . . . .oh, there are none. That alone will help sales a lot.
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Johnny, you really need to compare the scrambler to other SHAFT DRIVE bikes in its class. Like . . . . . .oh, there are none. That alone will help sales a lot.
You and I both enjoy riding DR650's...I don't think adding shaft drive to a DR would improve it in any way. In fact, it would decrease its' performance in some very important ways.
If Guzzi swayed some Bonnie Scrambler owners to the Guzzi brand, we would see reports of final drive failures within months. The minute the wheels start coming off the ground and full power is run through the shaft at max angles, stuff will break. Take five minutes to read the Triumph Scrambler thread on ADVrider. There's no way the Guzzi shaft drive will hold up to the kind of abuse Triumph Scrambler owners dish out.
I love the idea of a Guzzi Scrambler but I've had mechanical sympathy beaten into me by my machinist father for 42 years. I would use one for gravel road cruising and very light powerline exploration. I wouldn't take it across the TAT. I wouldn't hammer it across Baja 90 mph. I wouldn't enter it in Enduro's. I wouldn't ride one as if my bones are unbreakable. Those things are done frequently by Triumph owners.
If Guzzi isn't trying to steal Triumph sales...what exactly IS the business model? That takes me back to my previous question; would a Scrambler model crib sales from the existing V7C or cafe?
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The smallblock V7 Scrambler would not be a comparable bike to the DR650, it would better compare to the DL650 V strom or the G650 BMW. Gravel roads or very light trail, not a TAT bike.
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John's comments above about the abuse to the rear-drive of an enthusiastically ridden scrambler has "Scared me straight" in my directions for resurrecting my Breva.
I wonder though about the rear drives on the Guzzi's past, serious SB dirt attempts. Maybe the riders had the foresight to generally keep the rear wheel down?
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It may be worth keeping an eye on the Milan motobike show news http://www.eicma.it/en/news/.1.htm
My dealers had been on a Guzzi training course last week and they had been told it could be launched at the event with bikes in the dealers in Europe by end April.
The show already has a news item on the 3 different versions of the V7 on about page 6 which was one of the early news items of the show.
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From TLM facebook page (world dealer meeting)
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/402202_283715408359462_131361833594821_777132_1938442283_n.jpg)
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/419904_283716171692719_131361833594821_777134_942436331_n.jpg)
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/393787_284351884962481_131361833594821_778232_182788926_n.jpg)
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/396270_284196451644691_131361833594821_777901_1228253143_n.jpg)
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/401247_284988081565528_131361833594821_779682_1681584947_n.jpg)
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/425573_284987328232270_131361833594821_779678_1703023637_n.jpg)
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Nice. Looks more power cruiser than anything. Rear fender/light from the Griso? What about those schocks? Anyways I like it.
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looks sexy, kind of retro looking.
The swing arm assembly looks interesting
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typical Italian seat, no comfort.
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Have they left enough room in the tank for any gas?
Nick
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Nice. Looks more power cruiser than anything. Rear fender/light from the Griso? What about those schocks? Anyways I like it.
Yes, exactly, just what Guzzi needs, a 'me too' in an already saturated market segment that also happens to be on the wane to start with. Good move Piaggo! Dave
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Are those wheels spokes or cast, can't tell?
Instrument housing is kinda cool - I like the functions.
I think I'll chose to remain cautiously optimistic.
The real question remains HOW CLOSE TO ACTUAL PRODUCTION IS IT?
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It kinda reminds me of a Honda Rune......which I like!
(http://s14.postimage.org/j1bttpb1p/rune.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/j1bttpb1p/)
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Are those wheels spokes or cast, can't tell?
Instrument housing is kinda cool - I like the functions.
I think I'll chose to remain cautiously optimistic.
The real question remains HOW CLOSE TO ACTUAL PRODUCTION IS IT?
Yup. I'm with you on the optimism. I like the layout of the clock but the numbers are small and will be hard to read in sunlight. The spokes look too beefy....like the wheels are cast, to me.
This will sound weird but I think mirrors and directionals will make the bike look a lot better. I also think they need to do wome work on cable routing. The rest of the machine is so clean that the brake lines stick out like a sore thumb. The remote resevoir line on the rear shock does too.
I like the shape of the seat. I think black paint and the skunk seat will be the prettiest version. I dunno how that tank shape would look painted red. If the engine were black, red paint might look pretty sharp.
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I definitely think the tank shape is an improvement over the current Cali.
I'm a black engine guy, so I can only hope on that too.
We'll see.
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I'll give it a thumbs up although in as a naked bike I'd opt for the Griso.
Do they have a touring version? It's not a Cali if you can't hook a trailer to it, cover the seat in dead sheep, hang some massive cases on it and stick my wife on the back on the way to a rally...
As for looks of this one, I think it still stands as unique in today's cruiser market. And the Cali has always been differentiated from the other cruiser by the way it turns and stops. Doubt that's missing here.
But did I say I wanted a Griso????
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I think this looks great. Different very Guzzi which surely what most of us want. The wheels look cast but in the style of spoked which is eccentric but in a good way. ;-T
By the way it looks nothing like a Honda Rune, the Rune being possibly the ugliest & most stupid bike on the planet.
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Bags are a must, but I'd rather put HBs on them have the OEM put something like the current pricey and fragile Cal-Vin bags on it.
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I don't understand the criticism of this bike. It was past time for an updated California, and that's exactly what this is. There are just enough styling cues to echo past Cali models; just enough modern elements to distinguish this as something new. Good job! I think the touring version will look even better.
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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2270119332205&set=a.2269025904870.84368.1825274229&type=1&theater
1400
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(http://s17.postimage.org/baeeguybv/427692_2269026024873_1825274229_1427656_179140339_n.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/baeeguybv/)
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That Cal 14 is long and low! I like it, and can't wait to see some hi-rez photos!
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http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=51709.msg777454#msg777454
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Are those wheels spokes or cast, can't tell?
Cast. And they look super-cool in the other photos I've seen..
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-sVpTBQj/0/M/b80060000storieswebsiteMotoGuz-M.jpg)
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-5NLL9nF/0/M/Cal-14-M.jpg)
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I don't understand the criticism of this bike. It was past time for an updated California, and that's exactly what this is. There are just enough styling cues to echo past Cali models; just enough modern elements to distinguish this as something new. Good job! I think the touring version will look even better.
I agree. It's long and low and looks great!
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(http://s17.postimage.org/baeeguybv/427692_2269026024873_1825274229_1427656_179140339_n.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/baeeguybv/)
I'm not digging the flush, integrated tail light, but that's just me.
I prefer a regular tail light. The one off the V7C would suit me better than something that looks like it came off a Victory, or something...
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Cast. And they look super-cool in the other photos I've seen..
Yeah, it was just the first pic in this thread got me wondering if they'd changed them, but yeah, I liked them in the older pics. ;-T
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I'm not digging the flush, integrated tail light, but that's just me.
I prefer a regular tail light. The one off the V7C would suit me better than something that looks like it came off a Victory, or something...
Me too. That's partly why I think it'll look better with mirrors and directionals. It's borderline too "styled" for me right now. Once you hang a few things off it(like maybe a rear rack on the fender) it'll look a lot more utilitarian and less poser-ish....I think. I like the non resevoir shocks on the first concept. They need to re-think the mounting and dangling resevoir line if they stick with the piggyback units. That, and the size of the numbers on the gauge are really my only criticisms of the bike. That's not much to nitpick ;D
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Yep follow the thread Kev M posted....
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Yeah, I definitely want to see a finished/production model complete with specs.
But for now, I remain MORE interested in getting the new V7 to our shores!
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bump- another couple of photos added
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Looking at the left side of the engine ... what's going on there with the starter? As I am largely ignorant of these matters, feel free to discount this accordingly, but it looks like there's room for the whole starter motor, cast into the engine block, and then there might be an actual starter motor bolted on behind it.
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That tail-light is horrible - hopefully that's a one-off and not production.
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I find it difficult to comprehend the fact that a bike this size doesn't have a center stand
.
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Outstanding! Although I have my suggestions as well. ;)
Not a fan or the whole rear fender and taillight assembly. As mentioned above, it makes me think of something Victory or Honda might dream up for their power cruisers. Regardless, I'm going to be extremely hopeful that this could mean we're one step closer to seeing a new California go into production.
My favorite photos of this bike so far has been the older version with the silver engine, two person buddy seat, and saddle bags. Since that photo didn't show the rear fender, this fender shape and taillights could have been an idea that's been floating around for a while? Anyway, as long as they steer away from these small design elements appealing to the hot rod motorcycle niche, and keep it an updated italian-retro which really has more interest to their core market...I'm in!
How exciting and thanks for posting this!
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(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/393787_284351884962481_131361833594821_778232_182788926_n.jpg)
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/396270_284196451644691_131361833594821_777901_1228253143_n.jpg)
Major "fail" on the tail light, but otherwise, I really dig it!
Why not just use the nice looking tail light from the V7C ?
Nice to see right-side photos. The rear drive appears to be new and specific to this bike.
The CARC fans will be disappointed.
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I find it difficult to comprehend the fact that a bike this size doesn't have a center stand
.
Name a big cruiser that does...
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Definitely cast wheels near as I can see. I like the look although the ass end looks a bit Victory Visionist, which is not terrible in my mind. While the single gauge gives it a minimalist look, I like a separate tach myself.
Of course it's still early and what comes to market may be completely different from anything we see here.
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Looking at the left side of the engine ... what's going on there with the starter?
It's in its normal position, but behind a "stylish" cover.
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It kinda reminds me of a Honda Rune......which I like!
(http://s14.postimage.org/j1bttpb1p/rune.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/j1bttpb1p/)
It reminds me of the Rune, which I disliked.
The problem with that tank shape means.............. .Plastic tank.
Wonderful. ::)
Looks too much like a 'me too' styling goal.
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Of course it's still early and what comes to market may be completely different from anything we see here.
Yes. This one has a third version of the front fender.
I think they're still working out the details.
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Looks too much like a 'me too' styling goal.
I agree. While it may look "different", it still looks like it's trying too hard to fit in with the rest of the power-cruiser crowd. Plus the seat-to-floorboard/controls placement looks more forward than past models. Blah, no thanks. And that tank just looks awful.
I'll reserve judgment until I see the final production version, but so far with this concept, I'm not a fan. :-\
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Name a big cruiser that does...
Moto Guzzi California
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Moto Guzzi California
:+1
I hope this doesn't mean they're moving the California from a standard in cruiser-clothing to just another me-too cruiser...
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...but that gauge/dash thing sucks. I wanna take everything in at a glance, and that is just to complicated...
I find very little "right" with the gauge cluster. That is my "professional" and personal opinion.
I passed on buying three different new bikes this past year simply because of the poor design of the gauge cluster. Instrumentation is important to me (duh!) and, if this is the dash Guzzi will use, I won't even consider the bike. (Of course the seat height would likely keep me from buying it anyway, so who gives a flip about the gauges, right?). ::)
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Moto Guzzi California
Nah. The Tonti California doesn't qualify as a "Big Cruiser".
It's the size of a Sportster.
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The problem with that tank shape means.............. .Plastic tank.
Wonderful. ::)
I hope not, because that would likely be a deal breaker for me, UNLESS it was a cover over a plastic tank then I MIGHT still consider it.
On the centerstand thing - Yeah, I'd say Tonti Cali doesn't qualify as a "Big Cruiser" but that (the big cruiser market) is what this is directly aimed at so I understand it, even if I'm not sure I'm happy about it.
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My initial impressions are good. My reservations are:
1/ Is it going to have enough ground clearance?
2/ Is it too long to steer as sweetly as a Tonti Cali?
3/ Is the fuel tank going to be small taking into account the cut outs for the motor?
Difficult to tell from photos but I hope the new Cali follows the tradition of Guzzi cruisers being made for riding and not posing.
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3/ Is the fuel tank going to be small taking into account the cut outs for the motor?
Assuming they move the airbox under the seat and go with a single throttle body like on the new V7 - I think there is likely no reason to worry about tank size (at least for my uses).
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I find it difficult to comprehend the fact that a bike this size doesn't have a center stand.
Name a big cruiser that does...
The interest, nigh on to passion, in this thread about this motorcycle is more interesting to me than the machine itself, which almost puts me to sleep.
What does interest me is how they got it up on that maintenance/display stand. Must have taken a few burly Luigis, Ettores, and Pietros to make that happen! ;)
Bill
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I like the look. I don't do any long distance riding anymore so I wouldn't like the floor boards but the overall look is attractive to me. It DOES need a center stand.
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I'm still liking it. Hopefully, those tail lights are a styling exercise and not the production version.
I'm sorry to see a rear stand being used on the display bike; I hope the production bike continues the California tradition of a cruiser with enough ground clearance to achieve impressive lean angles AND carry a center stand. (If I could only have one or the other, I guess I'd settle for keeping the lean angles generous, but I wouldn't be happy with the compromise.)
I'm reserving judgment on the gauges and controls until I see a production bike. If they use a single gauge instrument cluster, I hope the tachometer is the analog portion; I could live with a digital speed read-out (assuming it's legible in direct sunlight). The model shown looks to be the opposite arrangement, however. I wouldn't mind mid-forward foot controls, but, please, not full forward. I HATE forward controls and would never buy a bike with them. They take your legs completely out of the handling equation. I find it hard to tell what the seat / foot relationship is on the bike shown, but they look maybe a bit too far froward for my taste. I need to see a picture of the bike with a pilot. Anyone have one they can post?
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All I can say is.... I'm glad I've got my CalVin.
I don't dislike it, except for the short rear fender, but,,,, it's not getting me all fired up. That said, I've been told that I'm hesitant to change and I may very well get all "warm and fuzzy" about it when it's finalized.
The upside is that development IS happening!
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Muschi, are you saying that as a fan of the California series? I ask because, your bike list goes in a decidedly different direction.
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I like my tonti Cali - but it comes up shy in a lot of areas - including electrical system, instrumentation and to some extent, performance, when compared with a CARC big-block. The continued internal oil filter is another unforgivable offense. I won't even go into sausage brakes.
I'm hoping that this new Cali addresses those issues without losing the other characteristics that make it a fine chassis.
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What the hell does a modern cruiser with shaft drive and tubeless tires need a centerstand for? Jesus H. Christ...some of you guys would bitch about ANYTHING that wasn't a 45 year old Eldorado.
It's going to weigh 650lbs at the very least. Your intestines would drop into your nutsack trying to yank something that big onto a centerstand.
Cue the whiney-ass voice over:
"I wish it had a centerstand"
"I wish it had points"
"It should have carbs"
"Will a Vetter fairing and Dan Brown bags fit?"
:beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse
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What the hell does a modern cruiser with shaft drive and tubeless tires need a centerstand for?
It's useful when trying to fit it into a garage with three other bikes.
It's useful when changing fluids and doing other maintenance.
It's useful for plugging a tire on the side of the road.
It's cool as hell. :P
Let's hope this new model does not weigh anything close to 650 lbs. If anything, I'm hoping that with modern materials they found a way to shave a few pounds. In any event, getting a bike on a center stand is a matter of leverage, not brute strength. You can put a 1,000 lb bike on a center stand, if it's designed correctly.
Hmmm... I wonder if it has linked brakes? As much as I'm getting used to them on my EV, I think unlinked brakes with ABS is the way to move forward.
Oh, yeah. I like that funky blue paint, too. I doubt it will sell in the US (too chi-chi European), but, I like it.
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Linked brakes would be a deal breaker too...
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at naked :) : I am a big fan of the california series, but that thing looks like a Japanese cruiser.
I wonder where the Italians are hiding there feel for contemporary design this time, that thing
looks like a creature from the mid-nineties. And it is awful.
See, I think that mid-'90's vibe you're feeling is the California series design elements coming through. (Side covers, fenders, height vs. length....) The fuel tank cut-outs for the valve covers is a 1920's thing, not 1990's. Meanwhile, showing off the engine like that is pure Guzzi. It doesn't recall any Japanese cruiser, to my eye.
I think the Italian flair will come out in the details. How the triple tree is machined. How the mirrors and lights are styled. The color choices. Luggage and light kits. I could be wrong, but I'm optimistic.
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As long as it Guzzi makes some decent looking saddlebags and a functional windshield or fairing available, one of these will find a home in my garage. I will soon start to practice my sniveling for when I go before my banker to fund the transaction. Right now I will just drool on my keyboard.
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From TLM facebook page (world dealer meeting)
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/402202_283715408359462_131361833594821_777132_1938442283_n.jpg)
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/396270_284196451644691_131361833594821_777901_1228253143_n.jpg)
Looking at the "gouge" or "groove" in the side cover makes me believe they're still using Marabese for styling. That element has been present in some form on every bike since the V11 LeMans.
I really hate that the front fender's stay has been deleted. I liked it on the black bike shown a few months ago.
I'd need to make some photo comparison measurements, but it looks like a low seat and a long wheelbase relative to the existing Cal Vin/Cal 90.
That fuel tank sure looks like something a person in a chop shop could come up with, if starting with an Eldo/Ambo tank.
I'd rather have pegs than boards. The boards on these preproduction bikes look too flat to me, based on the apparent ergos.
Looks like its got GREAT brakes. The wheels are super-cool. I like the retro looking large gauge housing with multi function LCD screen.
The rear fender looks OK, but after looking at the bike several times, I just can't take the tail lights. The tail light off a V7 or a Bassa/Special would look much better.
This thing has attitude, and I'll bet that 1400cc engine will sound healthy with a set aftermarket cans!
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Foot controls do look pretty far forward compared to todays Cali. But, it looks to have a conventional rear brake pedal, (i.e. no baby penis!)
It's not my kind of bike, but I think in touring guise it might work well for a lot of guys. And with just a few tweaks it may pull some Road King sales!
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How to read the clock? It the temp ambient, or oil? And what is the M G A showing R 2 2 shown under the minutes on the clock?
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How to read the clock? It the temp ambient, or oil? And what is the M G A showing R 2 2 shown under the minutes on the clock?
Temp is probably water. (It is water cooled isn't it?)
I'm no fan of the tail lights either, and where does your number plate go?
Plastic tank would be a deal breaker for me, as would the lack of centre stand.
What the hey. I couldn't afford one anyway.
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What the hell does a modern cruiser with shaft drive and tubeless tires need a centerstand for? some of you guys would bitch about ANYTHING that wasn't a 45 year old Eldorado.
It's going to weigh 650lbs at the very least. Your intestines would drop into your nutsack trying to yank something that big onto a centerstand.
Cue the whiney-ass voice over:
"I wish it had a centerstand"
"I wish it had points"
"It should have carbs"
"Will a Vetter fairing and Dan Brown bags fit?"
:beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse
Now thats funny right there
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It's going to weigh 650lbs at the very least. Your intestines would drop into your nutsack trying to yank something that big onto a centerstand.
That's what I thought as well until I put a Goldwing up on one. Proper design makes it no harder than putting my Norge on her center stand. Of course the electro-hydraulic center stand of the K1200LT is nice.
jdg
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Temp is probably water. (It is water cooled isn't it?)
I'm not so sure. That radiator between the headers looks too small for a water-cooling radiator. It looks to me like an oil cooler. My guess is it's air/oil cooled, like the other current Guzzi big blocks.
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The last report here on the subject was air/oil cooled, but nothing definitive yet.
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Yuch....I will have to gain 50lbs to ride the damn thing.
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Its mother was a Centauro, the father is unknown.
Bob
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Man, the more I look at this thing, the less I'm liking it. I really hope there's a good amount of design changes made to the production model.
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as one of 3 Americans to see the prototype at the design studio I would like to comment.
I dont know who does it , but these photos suck. The bike looks better in person than these angles and poor lighting reveal. I will admit to being not a big fan of the Tonti Cali in all forms, its just not my personal style of bike. After we 3 saw this new one, we all had similar inputs to the design team about what the US market will go for. This green bike is not one we saw, so I cant say if they have taken those ideas into metal.
I liked the new Cal better than I thought I would based on those photos shown before of the white one .
It is air/oil cooled, liquid comes later on other models.
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That's pretty definitive, thanks ;-T
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Much too stylized for my tastes. Don't they have any appreciation for classic Guzzi themes ? This thing looks more like an effort to match the Honda Rune or a Victory Vision !
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Looks heavy, real heavy, and tankerlike. Not my taste. Kinda like the Rune
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Serious Part:
I've very rarely seen a picture of a Moto Guzzi where the bike didn't look MUCH better in person. The only thing I have against the bike in these pictures is that it's not in my garage. Otherwise, I LOVE IT !!! I'm very anxious to see one whenever they make it to my favorite local dealer, Rose Farm Classics.
Non Serious Part:
Add your red suspender wearing, corn cob pipe smoking, dirty and torn bib overalls kind of rider, Vetter Windjammer fairing fan, Califia Fats saddlebag lover, GIVI trunk fan/geek and a roll of duct tape to tighten up the things prone to rattle or fall off and call this bike done! Oh, and don't forget the hose clamp. ;D
YMMV,
Mark
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Somehow I hate to say this .....i LIKE IT !!!!! ;-T
Roberto.
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hope it's not too heavy, has good ground clearance &
handles and revvvvs like a Guzzi!
:bike
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The problem as I see it is...
You are always going to get people that don't like cruisers, or don't like sports bikes, or don't like touring bikes, or don't like blah blah blah........
Up until now, IMHO, the California/EV series has been a mix of touring and cruiser. They tried to do both and IMHO didn't do to bad a job at it.
This thing is clearly more a cruiser, and less touring.
They have the Norge/Breva and Stelvio for touring. So they want to fill a more cruiser category. I guess the California series is the one to do that with.
I wish them luck. It's not something I would want right now for sure.
Plus the more serious issue. If you owned it, at some point you would have to look at that tank. ::)
~;
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What makes you think this isn't for touring? ???
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it looks fine to me. it doesn't look that heavy to me either. i think they went with the Long and Low which gives the impression of being heavy. and unfortunately gives us that god awful hideous gas tank. give it a decent gas tank and it will sell.
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I have a passionate dislike for 'Cruisers'. Ipso-facto it does nothing for me. I hope they sell a shirtload of them!!!
VDG
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I agree with Pete. That is one seriously ugly bike but for MG's sake I hope it works well and they sell a shipload in the US.
Still hoping they do a V9 cafe style bike based on the Bellagio but not holding my breath.
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I don't understand all the negativity this bike is getting. Based on the pictures on the whole it looks great. Yes the tank could be bigger & the jury's out on the rear lights but its a concept/prototype bike that will doubtless be tweaked at the factory. Also if it is water or oil cooled so be it, emission regs have been making life difficult for Guzzi for years so it was only going to be a matter of time, as long as it rides like a Guzzi no problem.
To my mind it also looks nothing like a Jap cruiser of any description & certainly not the Rune. What we have here is a boldly styled yet classic looking 21st century motorcycle that could not have come from anybody else but Guzzi. If this goes into production I will guarantee that in 5 - 10 years time the styling be hailed as classic. Its also worth noting that pretty much all Guzzi's look better in the metal than in photographs.
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I can't say I think there has been a lot of negativity. Criticism? Certainly! But surely that has to be a good thing.
You have to understand that outside of the USA 'Cruisers' have only recently become popular. Partly that is because of an ageing population of riders who find cruisers easy to ride, (They are.) and comfortable, (They can be.).artly it is because of the 'Popular Culture' image of motorcycling. But it is recent. Traditionally Europeans and Antipodeans hve been more Sportsbike or 'Sport-Touring' orientated. To many of us the whole 'Cruiser' thing is just plain confusing! Why would anybody want to ride something that looks fat and doesn't have modern suspension?
It's not so much negative as just a 'Disconnect'. At least from my viewpoint. As I said. I hope they sell them by the containerload.
VDG
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I like It ;-T
Like others, not sure about the tank.
I would want that fuel injection set just right, remembers the old Ford Pinto...? ;D
What would Ralph Nader think of that tank ???
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Sorry if it's a repost, but here's a vid that includes some pics of the Cali and of a scrambler version of the small block:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwREHnIUdZo&feature=player_embedded
Got it here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/268670806522697/
California Inrenational Club on Facebook.
John
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This concept, to me, is influenced by the lines of a wasp. It is most evident in the rear fender (the abdomen), but can be seen in all of the lines of the bike. I can see cruiser influences and sport bike influences in this design. In my mind it wants to fall into that well-worn "street fighter" design category that is "not a cruiser" and "not a sport bike." I see a lot to like. But as I posted earlier, there is at least one deal-breaker for me.
As we are all aware, the Guzzi V-Twin poses some real ergonomic design challenges. One of the biggest is the seat-to-cylinders relationship.
When the big block engine first appeared (1970's IIRC) the average height of a male was 5'8" (172.7 cm). And the range of heights within one standard deviation of that mean was not that great [from about 5'6" to 6'0" (my numbers - don't quote these)]. The seat position on early big block Guzzis appears to have been dictated by a combination of factors - the "average" leg length of the "average" man (appx. 32") was one of those many factors. (Center of gravity is understood to be another of these issues, as are many others.) The positions of foot controls was influenced by this "average leg length" number, as well as the need to tuck feet under the engine cylinders. This last issue has always been a "biggie" for Guzzi (IMHO) and will continue to be an issue so long as the Guzzi engine design stays in its basic configuration.
In this early 21st Century the "average" height of a man has jumped dramatically [in the U.S. there is quite a controversy about who "owns" the data and the Feds won't release the numbers to, for example, the SAE (again, IIRC)]. I would bet the number is over 6'0" and the range of heights within one standard deviation of this average likely goes from about 5'7" to 6'5". That means there is quite a range in leg lengths (which are now much longer), but more importantly, to tuck feet under the engine cylinders, there is a need to move the seat back "a scooch" and move controls forward. Oooohhhh! :o I think this is why the foot controls are where they are on the concept bike pictured above (the old "seat-to-cylinders" ergonomic relationship, as well as the other design issues implied above).
Now, I want to address the issue that is so maddening to me - the instrument cluster. When an operator has her/his eyes off of the road for more than about two-and-a-half seconds an "event" has occurred; in the parlance of the "distracted driver" an "event" is any episode that poses risk of harm (i.e., risk of an accident causing harm or damage). As a motorcyclist, if my vision is off of the road for more than two-and-a-half seconds I have put myself (and others) at risk.
Instrument clusters that are difficult to perceive pose risk to the operator and to others. Factors that can make instrument clusters difficult to perceive include such things as arrangement of elements, sizes of elements, "mixtures" of element types, contrast between "targets" and "background", and on the list goes. The "concept" instrument cluster in the photographs above is a real "mess." I am willing to bet that no human being will be able to find a specific datum in the pictured instrument cluster (with any accuracy) without having to refer to the cluster more than once and for periods of time that qualify them as an "event." That is a real problem, because it says that Guzzi has not developed a thoughtful design, and, a potential buyer might quickly infer that this same lack of thought extends to other elements of the motorcycle. It's a deal breaker (IMHO)!
I'll quit before I get too revved up...I have a lot more to say about such things (ergonomics and human factors). I will close by saying that there are a number of things I really, really like about this design. But, I will not buy a vehicle that has a poor instrument cluster so I will not consider this Guzzi if it comes equipped with this or a similar instrument cluster. (And, of course, I have to be able to flat-foot on it ;) ).
Bill
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This concept, to me, is influenced by the lines of a wasp. It is most evident in the rear fender (the abdomen), but can be seen in all of the lines of the bike. I can see cruiser influences and sport bike influences in this design. In my mind it wants to fall into that well-worn "street fighter" design category that is "not a cruiser" and "not a sport bike." I see a lot to like. But as I posted earlier, there is at least one deal-breaker for me.
As we are all aware, the Guzzi V-Twin poses some real ergonomic design challenges. One of the biggest is the seat-to-cylinders relationship.
When the big block engine first appeared (1970's IIRC) the average height of a male was 5'8" (172.7 cm). And the range of heights within one standard deviation of that mean was not that great [from about 5'6" to 6'0" (my numbers - don't quote these)]. The seat position on early big block Guzzis appears to have been dictated by a combination of factors - the "average" leg length of the "average" man (appx. 32") was one of those many factors. (Center of gravity is understood to be another of these issues, as are many others.) The positions of foot controls was influenced by this "average leg length" number, as well as the need to tuck feet under the engine cylinders. This last issue has always been a "biggie" for Guzzi (IMHO) and will continue to be an issue so long as the Guzzi engine design stays in its basic configuration.
In this early 21st Century the "average" height of a man has jumped dramatically [in the U.S. there is quite a controversy about who "owns" the data and the Feds won't release the numbers to, for example, the SAE (again, IIRC)]. I would bet the number is over 6'0" and the range of heights within one standard deviation of this average likely goes from about 5'7" to 6'5". That means there is quite a range in leg lengths (which are now much longer), but more importantly, to tuck feet under the engine cylinders, there is a need to move the seat back "a scooch" and move controls forward. Oooohhhh! :o I think this is why the foot controls are where they are on the concept bike pictured above (the old "seat-to-cylinders" ergonomic relationship, as well as the other design issues implied above).
Now, I want to address the issue that is so maddening to me - the instrument cluster. When an operator has her/his eyes off of the road for more than about two-and-a-half seconds an "event" has occurred; in the parlance of the "distracted driver" an "event" is any episode that poses risk of harm (i.e., risk of an accident causing harm or damage). As a mototcyclist, if my vision is off of the road for more than two-and-a-half seconds I have put myself (and others) at risk.
Instrument clusters that are difficult to perceive pose risk to the operator and to others. Factors that can make instrument clusters difficult to perceive include such things as arrangement of elements, sizes of elements, "mixtures" of element types, contrast between "targets" and "background", and on the list goes. The "concept" instrument cluster in the photographs above is a real "mess." I am willing to bet that no human being will be able to find a specific datum in the pictured instrument cluster (with any accuracy) without having to refer to the cluster more than once and for periods of time that qualify them as an "event." That is a real problem, because it says that Guzzi has not developed a thoughtful design, and, a potential buyer might quickly infer that this same lack of thought extends to other elements of the motorcycle. It's a deal breaker (IMHO)!
I'll quit before I get too revved up...I have a lot more to say about such things (ergonomics and human factors). I will close by saying that there are a number of things I really, really like about this design. But, I will not buy a vehicle that has a poor instrument cluster so I will not consider this Guzzi if it comes equipped with this or a similar instrument cluster. (And, of course, I have to be able to flat-foot on it ;) ).
Bill
Umnn....it's in KM's. It would be easy to double the size of the numbers when they're in MPH. There looks to be plenty of room for that.
I agree that the gauge is going to be nearly impossible to read at a glance as it is now. It's quite far away, has a flat bezel that's going to reflect light like mad and the numbers are too small.
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Umnn....it's in KM's. It would be easy to double the size of the numbers when they're in MPH. There looks to be plenty of room for that.
I agree that the gauge is going to be nearly impossible to read at a glance as it is now. It's quite far away, has a flat bezel that's going to reflect light like mad and the numbers are too small.
John, look again. The speedometer needle will be very difficult to find when traveling "at speed" (or any time for that matter); the silly thing is just too small and is buried (objects in the foreground are perceived first!). The housing will also cast a shadow on the mid-range of the speedometer; that shadow will obscure the small needle (red turns to dark gray when dimly lit - it will be very difficult to see).
If you want to "experience" how this speedometer design doesn't work, go take a test drive on a V-Star 1300. The "shadow over the mid-range, small needle, hard to read" issue will be made immediately clear (especially if you wear sunglasses 8) ).
The "legend" (i.e., the numbers) are an issue, but the numbers are a minor issue if you can't find the indicator.
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John, look again. The speedometer needle will be very difficult to find when traveling "at speed" (or any time for that matter); the silly thing is just too small and is buried (objects in the foreground are perceived first!). The housing will also cast a shadow on the mid-range of the speedometer; that shadow will obscure the small needle (red turns to dark gray when dimly lit - it will be very difficult to see).
If you want to "experience" how this speedometer design doesn't work, go take a test drive on a V-Star 1300. The "shadow over the mid-range, small needle, hard to read" issue will be made immediately clear (especially if you wear sunglasses 8) ).
The "legend" (i.e., the numbers) are an issue, but the numbers are a minor issue if you can't find the indicator.
That's a very valid point, Bill. I didn't even think about the needle. I was just looking at the numbers. Maybe they'll have a large LCD readout of the MPH. I hate digitial speedo's but if the readout numbers are over an inch tall at least they'd be readable.
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It reminds me of the Rune, which I disliked.
The problem with that tank shape means.............. .Plastic tank.
Wonderful. ::)
Looks too much like a 'me too' styling goal.
:+1
Thanks, but no thanks.
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An aesthetic nightmare. I'd rather ride a Harley and I hate Harleys. It just goes to show that Piaggio has no understanding of Guzzi sex appeal or history. Hang on to your current bikes and make 'em last. They may be the last pretty ones we see if the is an indicator of the future. ???
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It also looks like they hired Arlen Ness or some comparable moron at Victory to help with their" design". And those farkin' wheels! Geeez!!!
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It's amazing how this reminds me of the banter on the Harley forums regarding the new model release this week. :BEER:
I think a portion of the population embraces change while the other portion doesn't. Count me in the former more often than not.
Tank shape is so much better than Tonti Cali it's not funny.
Instruments - I concede Bill's probably forgotten more than I know BUT, isn't this a tad like the Breva/Norge instrument pod from a busy and potentially hard to read perspective.
I know part of what he says is true because I experienced a certain amount of distraction when I first got the big Beava. BUT that went away quickly as I adapted to/learned it. Might not the same happen with this?
Also looks like there is also a digital MPH display in it.
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Humm, looks a lot like a big Vespa to me.
(http://s13.postimage.org/wf5m40y0j/COLORS_gtv_300.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wf5m40y0j/)
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I didn't think it was possible, but just looking at that thing I notice that my penis became even smaller. :BEER:
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What the hell does a modern cruiser with shaft drive and tubeless tires need a centerstand for? Jesus H. Christ...some of you guys would bitch about ANYTHING that wasn't a 45 year old Eldorado.
It's going to weigh 650lbs at the very least. Your intestines would drop into your nutsack trying to yank something that big onto a centerstand.
Cue the whiney-ass voice over:
"I wish it had a centerstand"
"I wish it had points"
"It should have carbs"
"Will a Vetter fairing and Dan Brown bags fit?"
:beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/1.gif)
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As I look at it more and more and see the different angles i begin to love it more and more. I just hope it performs the way a Guzzi should. Can you imagine 1400cc in the Griso? This bike is going to be a beast.
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****
Instruments - I concede Bill's probably forgotten more than I know BUT, isn't this a tad like the Breva/Norge instrument pod from a busy and potentially hard to read perspective.
****
That is quite touching, kev. Thank you. I had no idea you viewed my knowledge and skills with so much esteem.
Oh. Bill929.
Sigh.
:D
Bill (of another kind)
P.S. You are such a hater; I love the Cali tanks of the '90's on, especially with the various EV livery.
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"I AM THE LAW"
Humm, looks a lot like a big Vespa to me.
(http://s13.postimage.org/wf5m40y0j/COLORS_gtv_300.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wf5m40y0j/)
YOU'RE FRICKIN STONED!
Bill H - lol, not a hata, just not a lova of that old Cali amorphous blob of a tank. Too Harleyesque, at least this new tank has more character.
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I'm finding very little to like about this "Guzzi". Could be the blurry, poorly lit, lo-res photos are part of the problem, but that's not the whole story. I dislike "fake" - finned cover over the starter, finned covers over real rocker covers, everything styled for the sake of style, not for function. More stuff to hinder repair and add weight. Plastic everywhere. And air shocks? Hope they're more durable than others of that type. Taillights/rear fender reminds me of a back view of the Aprilia Atlantic 500 scooter.
No matter - I'm definitely not the buyer they're courting anyway.
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"I AM THE LAW"
YOU'RE FRICKIN STONED!
Bill H - lol, not a hata, just not a lova of that old Cali amorphous blob of a tank. Too Harleyesque, at least this new tank has more character.
Gee Kev... is just an opinion... Hater is a terribly negative connotation. I don't like the goofy thing. You do. Nuff said. Lighten up bro! ;)
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A couple of lousy pictures and some of you guys pick the thing a part. Sheesh, how awful would it be to work for Piaggo/Moto Guzzi and read the junk from some on this forum. Here's an idea, wait and find out what may actually make it to the US. See it in person, sit on it, listen to it, ride it and read about it from people who actually have a clue. At least then you'd have something to base your criticism on.
YMMV,
Mark
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I like it.
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I thought this was an open forum... open to ideas and opinions... you make a couple and people get all bent out of shape????? Have a beer and relax!
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I thought this was an open forum... open to ideas and opinions... you make a couple and people get all bent out of shape????? Have a beer and relax!
I think I may have unintentionally caused this. :o
I was kidding with kev, and used the "hater" word as a joke, because I know he doesn't like the Cali tanks.
He can speak for himself, but before this goes downhill, I'll just say that his response to your post and mine was not, I am pretty sure, intended in a mean-spirited way, and was quite the opposite.
Down in my garage ... back to doing what doesn't need to be done, badly. :D
Bill
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Cool Bill... thanks for the clarity! ;-T
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No Holy Wars, guys. It upsets the digestion. Dave
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Yup, just taking the piss, shooting the shyte, busting nuts etc.
The "hata" comment was in response to Bill h regarding telling me not to be and I was saying I'm not.
Seemed clear to me but no biggie...
Hell the whole post started with a quote from Judge Dred. How could anyone take anything that followed seriously? Lol :BEER:
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Bill,
First, I doubt any of us can tell much from the single photo posted of that instrument cluster. That's not even considering that these are still prototypes we are looking at.
Second, no way the average male height in the US is 6' -- more like 5" 10".
Third, you are forgetting that the modern big-block no longer has the alternator on the front, allowing the engine to be moved up nearly 2" in the frame compared to the 1100cc engine in Californias of years past.
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Obviously no mirrors on there but I do think directionals are present. If you look closely at the 3rd picture on the original post, you can see the right front bullet directional, it is small but its there, in chrome. I'm guessing the rear signals are integrated into those big vertical brake lights...sort of HD esque. I imagine with them being so big they could even be compartmentalized with blinkers on the bottom and brakes on the top.
Engine case should be black like the white version - looks unfinished in gray. Also, the longer silencers on the white bike looks much better.
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OK - What's everyone think of this? (My apologies if this was posted previously...) :)
(http://s12.postimage.org/mvm6owkqx/430023_2531790738883_1376949899_31979579_388007442_n.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/mvm6owkqx/)
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As others have stated, I seem to really like the earlier white and black versions better.
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I dig it a lot. Offer a "line matched" fairing and nice set of BIG bags, pillion seat and you'll see me trade the Stelvio for it. On second thought, I may have the Stelvio paid off when this bad boy shows up, so I'll just have to add another to the stable. It'd be hard to let my Stelvio go. ;-T Debt free is overrated. ;D
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JJ,
this thread is like deja vu...
From you, about one year ago:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43189.0
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It's on a center stand. A bit beefier than I would have designed..... :BEER:
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I think this thing has potential to really look good in person
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JJ,
this thread is like deja vu...
From you, about one year ago:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43189.0
Nice....just more proof that I am totally "shot!" ;D ;D :D :D ;) ;) :) :)
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I think this thing has potential to really look good in person
That's so true. It is important to keep this in mind. Quite a number of bikes I thought were ugly in pics turned out to be startling in person. The Multi I used to own comes to mind. Also, had somewhat the same experience with the Stelvio as I think the bike in person is really even more impressive.
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Would be nice if one of the photoshop gurus could put some bags and a fairing on this thing. To me, the National cycle bags and a Swanee would look great on this bike.
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Center stand in the photo is an official Guzzi accessory. It uses the same pneumatic system that serves the air bag suspension.
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I guess this is Guzzis first " Street Rod " Good for you Guzzi ...
Roberto.
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You know Joliet, I can see you and Carol covering some miles on a bike like this :) I might have to offer you a couple hundred bucks for the Stone! 8) ::)
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If this new Guzzi model isn't UGLY, I dont know what is. ::)
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A comment on centerstands. I have 3 bikes,all with centerstands. 1971 BSA Thunderbolt 650/ @ 400 lbs wet. 2005 Triumph Bonneville T100/ @500 lbs wet. 2010 Moto Guzzi California Vintage/ @600 lbs wet. The Guzzi is far and away the easiest to put on the stand. The BSA is the hardest. Good design overcomes high weight, bad design overcomes low weight. With the Guzzi, it's more roll the bike back onto the stand to lift. The BSA needs a hearty stomp on the lever and a serious yank to lift the bike. It also lifts the front wheel off the ground which is part of the problem.
I don't hatethe new California, but I do apreciate my white 2010 California Vintage all the more after seeing the pictures. Or pictures of the Cali 90 for that matter.
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If this new Guzzi model isn't UGLY, I dont know what is. ::)
I think they could have done a little better job in the styling department as well. This looks like a Triumph Speedmaster or Thunderbird cruiser. :o ::) ??? ;D :D ;) :)
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I like it.
:+1
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I hope it looks better in daylight. Contrasty stage lighting doesn't help.
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Closing my eyes...imaging a police eldo style windshield, some sort of cross between National Cycle and DB bags...I see potential for sure....
(http://s13.postimage.org/6a363p3yb/cali1400.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6a363p3yb/)
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JJ, where ya been, man? This was posted already the other day and most people have handed them (Guzzi) their a$$ on a platter about it.
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Accessory price for the orchestra not listed.
That's ok. Accessories will not be available until fall 2014.
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Replacement, the Cal 90 is the last of the current.
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You know Joliet, I can see you and Carol covering some miles on a bike like this :) I might have to offer you a couple hundred bucks for the Stone! 8) ::)
Who the heck is carol? And you would pay more than market for a pristine 02 stone? I think the new one would look good next to the beast
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I couldn't disagree with you more.
The Tonti Cali is way long in the tooth and I venture a guess dead last or near in sales.
This isn't some 2.0L, 800 behemoth, it's a reasonable size (at least displacement but I suspect the chassis will match).
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Motoclisom translation:
Here's the new Moto Guzzi California 1400. The press was not allowed and the presentation was to be top secret for journalists, but a dealer has sent us pictures "stolen" Definitely more of the cruiser, the new version has a rebuilt engine, starting with the capacity increases to 1,400 cc to increase the maximum torque, but also the power. No mention of the custom, as in the past and less touristy, California becomes more muscular and more "bad" starting from the massive size of the engine with the thick fins cilindroni square. The distribution will be a four-valve per cylinder while the engine is in front of a large oil cooler, which allows to think of a mixed air over oil. The California will be shown to the public in October, probably at the show in Cologne.
Public showing October! Only 7 months of winning ahead.
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So we'd be lucky to see this for 2014... ::)
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Nice....just more proof that I am totally "shot!" ;D ;D :D :D ;) ;) :) :)
It's not all bad JJ, when your mind goes you get to meet "new" people everyday and visit new places! ???
It's all good, I probably forgot reading your original post anyway! At least I think so? :bow
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JJ -
Thanks for posting, 'cuz I missed the first one.
The bike in YOUR picture I like; looks like a MOTORCYCLE. and if the criticism is that it looks like a cop bike - well, I've always LOVED cop bikes. They are made for guys who ride a lot and they are provisioned as such.
I LIKE the styling, and the fact that it has a FLAT SEAT. I CANNOT ride a bike with an upswept seat any more - just can't get comfortable. But the R90S I finished this summer felt superb; flat seat, slightly leaned forward, weight off of tailbone, felt fabulous. As I'm sure my old SP would feel.
I am so tired of the 'upswept tail' look, or the uber-low cruiser seats that leave you cramped up with your weight leaning backward.
This bike has a nice flat seat, ROUND headlite (Oh yeah - tired of the many weird headlights out there), and yet those cylinder heads cut into the tank are very organic looking.
Sweet machine. Looks like a motorcycle to me fellas - what's the beef with it?
Rocket
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If this new Guzzi model isn't UGLY, I dont know what is. ::)
+1 hideous!
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Public showing October! Only 7 months of winning ahead.
Winning what - ugly contests? ;) ;D
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I couldn't disagree with you more.
The Tonti Cali is way long in the tooth and I venture a guess dead last or near in sales.
This isn't some 2.0L, 800 behemoth, it's a reasonable size (at least displacement but I suspect the chassis will match).
:+1 Absolutely correct sir.
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Me no likey
Too garish for my taste, which really doesn't matter anyway
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From TLM facebook page (world dealer meeting)
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/402202_283715408359462_131361833594821_777132_1938442283_n.jpg)
I like it. My .02? Bikes always look different in photos. I'm reminded of this every time I finally get to see one in the metal. It's pretty fat in the middle, just below the seat, to not be a mono-shock. Ditch the Buck Rogers air shocks to make room for hard bags and hide the rear suspension under the gearbox. The view from the rear reminds me of the Centauro and that's a good thing. Good looking bike. I'm glad to see the end of the Cali tear drop tank.
;-T
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Replacing a bike with a lotta history, and a loyal following sounds very walmart(short-sighted&stupid), bigger isn't always better. The ergos look a little too cruiser for me, but there's a market for it, I guess. It would make more sense to fill in the displacement gap in the lineup with a tonti retro standard bike, like a big block V7 Classic, than to replace the cali altogether...
:+1
I don't really need an engine jacked-up in the tank and would probably not buy one. The current Cali line has history back to the earliest Moto Guzzi. History, is something that many manufacturer are trying to re-capture.
There are different ways of moving forward without alienating half of your customer base.
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JJ, where ya been, man? This was posted already the other day and most people have handed them (Guzzi) their a$$ on a platter about it.
Like I said previously....I am completely SHOT!! ;D :D ;) :) Sorry about that folks! :o :o :o :o :o
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The current Cali line has history back to the earliest Moto Guzzi. History, is something that many manufacturer are trying to re-capture.
What? They were making Calis in 1921? News to me! :D
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What? They were making Calis in 1921? News to me! :D
OK, You got me, I meant earliest V twins ;)
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The customers (or the lack of them) have clearly told Piaggio/Moto Guzzi the current Tonti frame California series has reached the end. With the California 90 and the Black Eagle, the death of the Tonti is quite evident.
It amazes when I read people asking for a 'new' Loop frame type bike. Been their, done that. The T/T3/G5/Convert series, then the EV/jackal/Bassa, the Cal Vintage is so close to the EV series that it can easily be in that same category. Now the new California 1400 series will take their place. Pretty nice progression in my book. Realistically, the 850 T3FB blows the old loop frame bikes away in just about every measureable category. Heh, I like the looks of some of the Detroit cars from the 50's and 60's. But more than that, I like modern brakes, transmissions, air conditioning, suspension etc. etc. etc. I'm VERY glad they don't make cars like they used to. Same with motorcycles. I love the modern electronics, fuel injection, styling, suspension, brakes, engines etc. etc. etc.
Like and admire the old stuff for what it was and is. They'll be plenty of Tonti bikes around for those who want one. They'll outlive everyone currently on this forum. Are there nit picks on these first photos of the Cali 1400, sure. Styling will never please evevyone. But the basic overall package is excellent IMHO.
All the best,
Mark
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The headlight does not appear to be a round one. Look at the dealer show picture. It looks to me that it is some sort of funky shape.
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Have I mentioned, maybe it was the other thread, how much some of you sound like the Harley pussies about this?
Remember that next time you claim to be so different with your angst. P:)
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Skin, I took the Jackal out today and loved every brilliant minute.
But gimme a break with the loyal customer BS. How many even here, on this enthusiast website bought new Calis this past DECADE. The company isn't stupid, and they wouldn't discontinue a popular design whose tooling was paid for unless they saw the writing on the wall...and the writing is in bold frickin letters.
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Selling Californias by the hundred in a country that buys a quarter million cruisers per year?
The Tonti California is a great motorcycle, but it's glory day was the 1998 EV and it's been mainly downhill from there, sales-wise. Nothing in the world wrong with a Cal Vin, but from what I can tell, it's currently last in sales and near the top in MSRP.
Bikes like the big Breva and the Norge far outnumber California Vintages at Guzzi campouts that I attend, so I'd say many of the faithful who actually buy new(er) bikes are making / have made the switch.
Sure, a Guzzi campout will largely be attended by EVs (and even older bikes), but that is changing, and the EV has been out of production for seven years.
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I think this looks great. Different very Guzzi which surely what most of us want. The wheels look cast but in the style of spoked which is eccentric but in a good way. ;-T
By the way it looks nothing like a Honda Rune, the Rune being possibly the ugliest & most stupid bike on the planet.
+1 on the Rune (should be spelled "Ruined")
Ralph
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Bill,
First, I doubt any of us can tell much from the single photo posted of that instrument cluster. That's not even considering that these are still prototypes we are looking at....
YCRN, I think I can tell a fair bit about the instrument cluster by looking at the photo of the prototype. I stand by my statements.
Remember one of the reasons that companies reveal concept prototypes is to gather feedback from industry analysts, dealers, consumers, et. al. They look to see how "experts" (and we are "expert consumers") react to various and specific features of their concept. If they are prudent, they then review the feedback they receive and adapt the concept, slowly honing it until they have what they hope will be a market "winner."
A discussion board like ours is a wonderful "focus group." It doesn't cost the company anything but a little clerical time (to glean and sort posted comments). And, on this discussion board, they get pretty complete data on participants' ages, buying histories, and regional distributions, etc. (just look at your profile information/"signature"). This discussion board is a potential "gold mine" of data for Moto Guzzi and MGNA.
What we are doing here (posting our thoughts about this concept scooter) is exactly why Moto Guzzi revealed this latest concept version of the 1400. They want our feedback, and they want to know specifics of what we like and dislike. As an "expert consumer," and as a recognized expert in vehicle information display design, I voiced my opinion. And I'll defend it, but will also defend your right to disagree.
....Second, no way the average male height in the US is 6' -- more like 5" 10".
Perhaps you are right; the Feds are not releasing the data. How 'bout I change my assertion to say we are approaching an average height of 6'?
....Third, you are forgetting that the modern big-block no longer has the alternator on the front, allowing the engine to be moved up nearly 2" in the frame compared to the 1100cc engine in Californias of years past.
I am very comfortable with my statements regarding one reason for the position of the foot controls. From the perspective of human factors it makes pretty good sense.
Look carefully at the concept bike, then contrast it with a similar perspective of a California (any year will do - they're all Tonti frames). Although the alternator is gone on the 1400, the space is now taken by an oil cooler. Now, carefully compare the forwardmost part of the header on the 1400 with the header on a California. Compared to the steering head/front fender they are in about the same place.
One thing we don't know is the planned wheelbase of the prototype. Nevertheless, I can't see anything that would make me believe that the seat-to-cylinders relationship is any different than any of the Tonti-framed bikes. I think my remarks about the position of the foot controls are reasonable; I respect your right to disagree.
I would like to see MG "knock it out of the park" with the new 1400. I hope they can develop a design that is intuitive and near-effortless to ride and operate. I would like riders to comment "I don't have to think about what I'm doing; it all works seamlessly." I have a strong belief that such a reaction would attract new riders to the marque; I'd love to see that happen for Moto Guzzi.
But one must remember that, when we are riding, most of what we see of our motorcycles (starting at the rider's position) are the tank/filler cap, handlebars, and instrument cluster. And most of the time when we divert our gaze from the road to the bike we are trying to find data in the instrument cluster (an indication of speed, an indicator light, etc.). If the instrument cluster is not "intuitive" or well-designed it is perceived as "hard to read." Yes, as Kev M suggested, "we can adapt to it," but I would prefer to see Moto Guzzi "get it right" so it is not another "Moto Guzzi quirk," like the "nub" on the California brake pedal. "Knock it out of the park, Moto Guzzi! Show 'em who knows how to build the best motorcycles from start to finish!"
'nuff said. :)
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The white one looks like a nice cruiser.
The blue (?) one looks more like a muscle bike to me.
Surely there will be changes before it's shown in October.
I do hope this will be a successful model, even though I don't in any case see a new cruiser in my "stable"!
And of course I'll be eagerly waiting to see what else they will put that 1400cc into ....
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YCRN, I think I can tell a fair bit about the instrument cluster by looking at the photo of the prototype. I stand by my statements.
I like the retro '60s automotive look of the thing. I'd have to see it in operation to be sure, but I don't hate it.
The only thing I really, really dislike on the Cal 14 prototypes is the stupid Victory-esque tail light.
Remember one of the reasons that companies reveal concept prototypes is to gather feedback from industry analysts, dealers, consumers, et. al. They look to see how "experts" (and we are "expert consumers") react to various and specific features of their concept. If they are prudent, they then review the feedback they receive and adapt the concept, slowly honing it until they have what they hope will be a market "winner."
A discussion board like ours is a wonderful "focus group." It doesn't cost the company anything but a little clerical time (to glean and sort posted comments). And, on this discussion board, they get pretty complete data on participants' ages, buying histories, and regional distributions, etc. (just look at your profile information/"signature"). This discussion board is a potential "gold mine" of data for Moto Guzzi and MGNA.
What we are doing here (posting our thoughts about this concept scooter) is exactly why Moto Guzzi revealed this latest concept version of the 1400. They want our feedback, and they want to know specifics of what we like and dislike. As an "expert consumer," and as a recognized expert in vehicle information display design, I voiced my opinion. And I'll defend it, but will also defend your right to disagree.
Yes, and I sure hope they pay some attention. Internet forums are a great venue that don't cost them a dime.
Perhaps you are right; the Feds are not releasing the data. How 'bout I change my assertion to say we are approaching an average height of 6'?
I think you'll find the average for USA men more like 5'-9", but I think the variance from average is much wider than it was 100 years ago, back when it was more like 5'-6" and 6'-0" was rare.
I am very comfortable with my statements regarding one reason for the position of the foot controls. From the perspective of human factors it makes pretty good sense.
Look carefully at the concept bike, then contrast it with a similar perspective of a California (any year will do - they're all Tonti frames). Although the alternator is gone on the 1400, the space is now taken by an oil cooler. Now, carefully compare the forwardmost part of the header on the 1400 with the header on a California. Compared to the steering head/front fender they are in about the same place.
One thing we don't know is the planned wheelbase of the prototype. Nevertheless, I can't see anything that would make me believe that the seat-to-cylinders relationship is any different than any of the Tonti-framed bikes. I think my remarks about the position of the foot controls are reasonable; I respect your right to disagree.
It's easy to take a photograph, then take a known measurement from that photograph, and get some measurements. From the rough comparisons I've made, the seat looks to be 27" and the wheelbase looks to be 64". I used the 18" front wheel as the basis for that.
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-5NLL9nF/0/M/Cal-14-M.jpg)
I would like to see MG "knock it out of the park" with the new 1400. I hope they can develop a design that is intuitive and near-effortless to ride and operate. I would like riders to comment "I don't have to think about what I'm doing; it all works seamlessly." I have a strong belief that such a reaction would attract new riders to the marque; I'd love to see that happen for Moto Guzzi.
But one must remember that, when we are riding, most of what we see of our motorcycles (starting at the rider's position) are the tank/filler cap, handlebars, and instrument cluster. And most of the time when we divert our gaze from the road to the bike we are trying to find data in the instrument cluster (an indication of speed, an indicator light, etc.). If the instrument cluster is not "intuitive" or well-designed it is perceived as "hard to read." Yes, as Kev M suggested, "we can adapt to it," but I would prefer to see Moto Guzzi "get it right" so it is not another "Moto Guzzi quirk," like the "nub" on the California brake pedal. "Knock it out of the park, Moto Guzzi! Show 'em who knows how to build the best motorcycles from start to finish!"
'nuff said. :)
You're right about that, and that's why I prefer simple analog gauges.
I'll be interested to see this one in its final form. It is nice to have multiple tripmeters, a fuel guage, and a clock available sometimes...
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Like what you want...dislike what you want too.
But a bunch of people here, me included, like this bike and may wind up with it so try not to be a complete ass and piss in their faces when you express yourself.
I continue to disagree with your aesthetic assessment as well as your predictions regarding future popularity or lack thereof.
But truthfully I mostly just want it to function well and look good, though popularity would be nice to ensure accessories.
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....It's easy to take a photograph, then take a known measurement from that photograph, and get some measurements....the seat looks to be 27"....I used the 18" front wheel as the basis for that....
A 27" seat height? :o :o :o Be still my heart! How I would love to see a 27" seat height on a Guzzi! :bow :bow :bow
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I like it. Put a set of Hepco brackets on it so you can put larger boxes and a Givi shield
I think you have a winner. If it comes in at $13-14.5 it'll sell well. If it comes in at stupid money
It will sell more Dynaglides and Road Kings.
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I've read over my posts several times and the only disparaging remarks I made about the bike are the complicated gauge, and too much chrome bling. I don't see the remark about the ergos being too cruiser for me as an insult. Per your post on the first page,"(the big cruiser market) is what this is directly aimed at" and my remark about the bike being a "Bloated boulevard cruiser", if it walks like a goose, and honks like a goose ;) I also avoided making any comments about the horrible tail-lights(your assessment). As for being a black engine guy, at least we can agree on that one thing ;-T To be honest, I don't have enough muscle mass to feel comfortable on a big cruiser, and I'm kinda irked that MG will no longer offer a standard/cruiser liter bike for people who don't want to super-size their ride. If my remarks were taken as boorish insult, I sincerely apologize to all those offended. In the future I'll try to be more PC, or just keep my mouth shut. Have a nice day, and KTRSD ;D
No I'm not saying I'm offended, just that I can see how people might be.
But re-reading it - maybe I mis-read you - I thought you were calling this NEW bike a "turd" and a "pile of crap" etc?.
the bike's a turd and it will never be a collector's item, just a steaming piece of crap fit only to cannibalize parts from to upgrade and customize more desirable bikes.
Were you sarcastically calling the Cali that instead (because that's certainly not how I feel about the Cali, even if I think the design is long in the tooth)??? Sorry if I misread you.
Now that out of the way, I actually get part of why you're irked. Although I like a "cruiser-ish" styled bike, I too lament bikes that are too big and too heavy. I LOVE the RK, but wish the current model was about 100 lbs lighter. I don't want this model to be too big either, and I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic that it won't be.
If it turns out to have a 64" wheelbase as Rocker estimates, that would put it at about the same wheelbase as an RK - that's bordering on longer than I would want, but as long as the weight is kept at or under 700 lbs I'd probably be happy with it - I'd be estatic if the weight was only 600 lbs.
Anyway, one of the things I like the MOST about this bike is that it ISN'T 1600cc or 1800cc or gawd 2000cc. I at least give them credit for not going totallyoverboard.
A 27" seat height would put it in Harley Dyna territory, just a hair under most of the Road King and touring model seat heights.
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More interesting photos at: http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/moto-guzzi-california-1400-revealed/20019.html (http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/moto-guzzi-california-1400-revealed/20019.html)
(http://s2.visordown.com/uploads/images/large/45315.jpg)
(http://s2.visordown.com/uploads/images/large/45321.jpg)
Interesting headlight configuration -
(http://s1.visordown.com/uploads/images/original/45322.jpg)
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27" seat? Really?
Even though I'm not a cruiser guy, I like the looks of the 1400 cali. If it really has a seat height in the 27-28" range, that would be the single most important change Guzzi could have made to the bike. A Jackal is about 30" and the CARC bikes are all 31.5-32 stock.
I believe the average height figures quoted before in the thread are way off. The average sized man in the US is 5' 9" and 165lbs. If you're 5'9", your inseam is usually around 30 inches.
It must be hard for dealers to sell Guzzi's when average sized riders sit on the bike in the showroom and their legs dangle like a little kid in a highchair.
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27" seat? Really?
No specs have been published, but we know the front wheel is an 18". So, a few measurements from photos and that's what I came up with. Along with the wheelbase estimate of 63"/64". Obviously, I could be off a bit. :BEER:
Even though I'm not a cruiser guy, I like the looks of the 1400 cali. If it really has a seat height in the 27-28" range, that would be the single most important change Guzzi could have made to the bike. A Jackal is about 30" and the CARC bikes are all 31.5-32 stock.
I believe the average height figures quoted before in the thread are way off. The average sized man in the US is 5' 9" and 165lbs. If you're 5'9", your inseam is usually around 30 inches.
It must be hard for dealers to sell Guzzi's when average sized riders sit on the bike in the showroom and their legs dangle like a little kid in a highchair.
Yep. 5'-9". And if they're not willing to put one foot down at stops, that really hurts Guzzi.
I am willing to put one foot down on bikes I like, or I'd never be able to ride many sporty and dirty bikes with my 32" inseam.
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No specs have been published, but we know the front wheel is an 18". So, a few measurements from photos and that's what I came up with. Along with the wheelbase estimate of 63"/64". Obviously, I could be off a bit. :BEER:
Yep. 5'-9". And if they're not willing to put one foot down at stops, that really hurts Guzzi.
I am willing to put one foot down on bikes I like, or I'd never be able to ride many sporty and dirty bikes with my 32" inseam.
Same here. I'm 6', 180 and have a 32" inseam, I found my 1200 Sport to be pretty hard to wheel around my steep driveway without getting off. My father, who is 5'9" with a short 28" inseam had to lean right off the bike and stop with one toe holding it up. The first thing I noticed when I sat on a CalVin was that the wide frame rails, combined with a tallish seat height made the bike more of a handful than it needed to be in parking lots.
The LAST thing some cruiser rider is going to want is a jacked up bike that makes them uncomfortable at stoplights. I really hope your measurements are fairly accurate. It would be a great thing for Guzzi if it's true.
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....I believe the average height figures quoted before in the thread are way off. The average sized man in the US is 5' 9" and 165lbs. If you're 5'9", your inseam is usually around 30 inches.
Please provide a reference for all three of the measurements, above. I'd sure like to see it.
Thanks!
Bill
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Please provide a reference for all three of the measurements, above. I'd sure like to see it.
Thanks!
Bill
No offense Bill but it takes about 30 seconds to find several very good sources of historical data regarding height and weight. It is, after all, how children's growth is measured. It's always in percentile for height and weight.
Since the 1950's, the average height of an American male has been right around 5' 9".
http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/growthcharts2/f/avg_ht_male.htm
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I was wrong about weight though...it is 189lbs for an adult. The average weight of a high school senior is more like 165lbs. That's why that weight class is always the hardest in wrestling. Anyway, height for US males is 5' 9".
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John,
Here is another link to add to your collection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height) - you'll notice that the U.S. studies (scroll down) provide a different picture. You will also note that the studies are of very limited age ranges and, for the most part, discriminate by race/ethnicity. By scientific standards the studies are getting old which equates to outdated.
Keep searching the 'net if you want to. What you'll see is our current height and weight data are unavailable. And by all means don't look at the pediatric data - holy cow! Pediatricians typically "fire" their patients when they turn 18; they send them off to family practitioners because they are, at 18, adults.
In the last ten years we have seen dramatic changes in our population; more than 33% are now said to be overweight. Shoe sizes and hat sizes have gone "through the roof." And waist/inseam sizes - Oh My Dawg!
Please do keep researching, and look for studies/numbers collected since 2008 (there aren't many). And limit your search to adults (18+ years of age). I think your tune will begin to change, or not.
Bill
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I better understand your point now and don't completely disagree, at least with the attractiveness of a classic-looking big-block. THAT WOULD BE MY FIRST CHOICE if available.
That said - I don't think dealer networks and promotion would help the current Cali for the following reasons
* tank-shape ISN'T actually "classic Guzzi".
* Charging system just isn't up to snuff to run driving lights, heated gear etc.
* Oil filter inside the pan is just silly
* Like it or not 1100cc just isn't perceived as enough to most of the market. Hell BMW dropped their "cruiser" because market research showed 1200cc wasn't going to be perceived as enough DESPITE 100 RWHP figures that could achieve with it if they wanted to.
Not to mention things like linked brakes and tubed wheels are going to put off a segment of the population.
Sure they could fix some of these things, but bottom line the demand for the Cali has been dropping especially in the face of 2V and 4V Carc Big-Blocks.
Don't get me wrong, I recently decided that as fabulous as the 2V Carc Big-Block is, it just wasn't for me in that package and I got rid of it. The Jackal is a better overall package for me despite these shortcomings, but I still think I'm going to divest myself of it simply because I want a "new" bike, and as much as I like the Cal-Vin and Black Eagle, I won't consider them because it would seem silly for me to buy a new bike, 10 years later, that has the same shortcomings of the one I'm selling.
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John,
Here is another link to add to your collection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height) - you'll notice that the U.S. studies (scroll down) provide a different picture. You will also note that the studies are of very limited age ranges and, for the most part, discriminate by race/ethnicity. By scientific standards the studies are getting old which equates to outdated.
Keep searching the 'net if you want to. What you'll see is our current height and weight data are unavailable. And by all means don't look at the pediatric data - holy cow! Pediatricians typically "fire" their patients when they turn 18; they send them off to family practitioners because they are, at 18, adults.
In the last ten years we have seen dramatic changes in our population; more than 33% are now said to be overweight. Shoe sizes and hat sizes have gone "through the roof." And waist/inseam sizes - Oh My Dawg!
Please do keep researching, and look for studies/numbers collected since 2008 (there aren't many). And limit your search to adults (18+ years of age). I think your tune will begin to change, or not.
Bill
While the numbers for pediatricians actually go through age 20 the specific survey I referenced was broken into age brackets that went all the way to 74 years old. The survey was conducted from 1998-2002. Those numbers are bolstered by the CDC who also periodically research their own conclusions for revisions and who also conducted their last survey in 2002.
The average height for an American male is 5' 9 inches.
National Center for Health Statistics
Center for Disease Control
Wikipedia is not an authoritative source for knowledge of any kind. While average weights have dramatically increased, height for men has not. It has remained within 1/2" since 1950. Waistlines increase from weight gain but inseam does not. Unless you have an enormous gunt that hangs below your testicles, being 20lbs overweight isn't going to affect your inseam measurement. ;D
I do not trust any comparison of "sizes" over time. Sizes are not always tied to a static measurement the way a waist, inseam, height or weight is. They're also affected by styling trends. A size 9 shoe in a Nike isn't the same as a size 9 from Asics. Ask any woman if all size 6's from different manufacturers are the same.
I think it is reasonable, given the source of the data and how it has tracked relatively static for 6 decades, that we can assume average height in the US of men to be 5' 9".
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^^^ Too funny. I was just going to post a similar reply to Skin Mechanic, when I read Kev's post. While it's easy to blame Piaggio Group for Moto Guzzi's low profile, it looks like that's slowly changing. However, once MG gets the public's attention, it has to show them something fresh and modern, or the effort will be for naught. As charming as the Tonti Cali is, fresh and modern, it isn't.
In addition to Kev's list, I will add: ergonomics that make the bike difficult to flat-foot for the average rider (I'm 5' 10" and I can just flat-foot my EV); and a gearbox full of "character" (i.e., false neutrals). Sure, eventually, most people can get used to these things. However, one quick test ride, or one negative reference by a moto journalist, is enough to put most people off. Consumers have a lot of bikes to chose from, and the competition is just too good.
I'd still like to see the Bellagio in the US., though. I guess that's really not a Tonti California, though, since it's got the CARC grafted on? At least it has a modern gearbox. I also think the power cruiser aesthetic that it exudes would fit right into this market. The "small" engine displacement might not be as big a liability as some seem to think. There is a market in the US for sub-1,000cc cruisers, and the bike's performance could win over the skeptics.
BTW, I disagree about the California's gas tank. I think the shape is beautiful. Unique. Sensuous in an Italianate way. A classic in its own right. On my EV, the black paint and red pinstripe are applied over chrome, recalling the chrome flanks of its Ambassador / Eldorado predecessors. The "whale penis" analogy is funny, but not at all apt:
California Gas tank:
(http://www.motoguzzicalifornia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/2004MotoGuzziCaliforniaEV.jpg)
Whale penis:
(http://ooglea.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/assorted-whale-penises.jpg)
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Go type "flaccid whale penis" into Google images. A Guzzi is the first listing. And..........compar e this to an EV tank:
(http://s13.postimage.org/en8hq2ixf/Dead_Whale_3_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/en8hq2ixf/)
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****
BTW, I disagree about the California's gas tank. I think the shape is beautiful. Unique. Sensuous in an Italianate way. A classic in its own right.
****
You, Sir, are a connoisseur of the first rank. On this issue, at least, Kevm is a Philistine. I will not deign to comment on JohninVT. :D
Bill
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JohninVT -- I still don't see it. Height / length proportion, bulbous-ness, downturn at the end, are all different. If anything, that looks like a Yamaha (Star) Warrior tank:
(http://imageshand.yamahamotors.com/img.jpg?id=6704&class=med640)
BTW, if enough people write an analogy on the internet,no matter how invalid, then a Google search will show it. Proves nothing.
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She has massive jugs.
I'm wondering about their choice of rear suspension.... If the shocks are air, it would be easier to change spring rate.
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Have I mentioned, maybe it was the other thread, how much some of you sound like the Harley pussies about this?
Remember that next time you claim to be so different with your angst. P:)
Well, I personally LIKE Harley's, so that leaves me out....but that new Guzzi Cruiser is sort of like the Ducati Diavel - I guess it's love it or hate it - no in between (???) I will have to wait until I see one up close and in person to really judge - photos are deceiving! ;)
(http://s13.postimage.org/46ax7io9f/Diavel_Carbon_2011_Amb_R_14.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/46ax7io9f/)
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Philistine? Yeah a bit, but I didn't think you guys had noticed. :BEER:
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I've seen the Diavel at FBF and it does look better in person, but I'm not even remotely interested in it. I do enjoy our Monster from time to time though.
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So we'd be lucky to see this for 2014... ::)
Then accessories would be available in Spring 2016. ~;
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Philistine? Yeah a bit, but I didn't think you guys had noticed. :BEER:
I wouldn't change you name to Phyllis... And you look way older than a teen.... Sorry... ;) :BEER:
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^^^ Too funny. I was just going to post a similar reply to Skin Mechanic, when I read Kev's post. While it's easy to blame Piaggio Group for Moto Guzzi's low profile, it looks like that's slowly changing. However, once MG gets the public's attention, it has to show them something fresh and modern, or the effort will be for naught. As charming as the Tonti Cali is, fresh and modern, it isn't.
In addition to Kev's list, I will add: ergonomics that make the bike difficult to flat-foot for the average rider (I'm 5' 10" and I can just flat-foot my EV); and a gearbox full of "character" (i.e., false neutrals). Sure, eventually, most people can get used to these things. However, one quick test ride, or one negative reference by a moto journalist, is enough to put most people off. Consumers have a lot of bikes to chose from, and the competition is just too good.
I'd still like to see the Bellagio in the US., though. I guess that's really not a Tonti California, though, since it's got the CARC grafted on? At least it has a modern gearbox. I also think the power cruiser aesthetic that it exudes would fit right into this market. The "small" engine displacement might not be as big a liability as some seem to think. There is a market in the US for sub-1,000cc cruisers, and the bike's performance could win over the skeptics.
BTW, I disagree about the California's gas tank. I think the shape is beautiful. Unique. Sensuous in an Italianate way. A classic in its own right. On my EV, the black paint and red pinstripe are applied over chrome, recalling the chrome flanks of its Ambassador / Eldorado predecessors. The "whale penis" analogy is funny, but not at all apt:
California Gas tank:
(http://www.motoguzzicalifornia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/2004MotoGuzziCaliforniaEV.jpg)
Whale penis:
(http://ooglea.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/assorted-whale-penises.jpg)
This is the best post I've read all year. :)
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MG is in no position to steer the market in a completely new direction (away from such emphasis on motor size). Best they can do is respond in their own way and hope to attract a percentage of fringe buyers who don't buy into all the BS and who buy on actual substance. I hope this product fulfills that.
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Looks heavy, real heavy, and tankerlike. Not my taste.
or whale like... I'm likin the Griso even more now.
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Is it the industry's fault or the consumer's? Kinda chicken or egg argument.
Though I honestly have no need for a motor larger than 1100-1200ccs, I suspect this Cali could be my last hope for such a machine without jumping to a ridiculous 1600-1800ccs.
Hell 1400 is just 60cc more than my favorite previous "big twin".
That said, first I'm going the other direction and downsizing to 750. :BEER:
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I think this looks great. Different very Guzzi which surely what most of us want. The wheels look cast but in the style of spoked which is eccentric but in a good way. ;-T
By the way it looks nothing like a Honda Rune, the Rune being possibly the ugliest & most stupid bike on the planet.
Are we forgetting the Victory Vision??? ;D
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IMHO, the Victory Vision looks a bit goofy from the front. From any other angle it looks fine to me. Many owners black out the Bozo front fairing pieces to have an excellent looking motorcycle. I see no resemblance of this Cali 1400 prototype to the Vision. OK, the tail lights if you really want to try hard at nit picking. But, I like the tail lights on the Cali 1400 and the Victory. My biggest nit pik with the Vision is the small saddlebag capacity. That's nother reason why I love the Victory Cross Country Tour. If I had the bucks, I have a white CCT in my garage right now.
All the best,
Mark
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Where does it leave the handful of ... as irrelevant to the market regardless of who's doing the leading (though economists would likely argue it's the customer who votes with his/her wallet).
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Are we forgetting the Victory Vision??? ;D
No the Rune is still probably the ugliest & most stupid bike on the planet! ;D
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I was looking at shivers last year. Sweet bike, nice lightweight 750 with plenty of power. That's all I'd need. Centauro is a fun bike but there are definitely times i'd like it to be a little lighter.
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I thought that award belonged to the other Honda, Pacific Coast...
Yeah fair point it could be a tie. ;D
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Yet another hideous oversized poser's bike. Brings the great name of Moto Guzzi into disgrace.
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Yet another hideous oversized poser's bike. Brings the great name of Moto Guzzi into disgrace.
::) ::) ::)
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I just want a big block V7 Classic, or better yet; a tonti cali w/Griso SE drivetrain, and Öhlins suspension ~;
:+1
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it appears to be oversized overweight and dam ugly
maybe designed by a committee who wanted to copy both the biggest Harley (what ever model that might be) and the Triumph Rocket Three, if its a Cali where are the panniers and pannier frames? thanks but no thanks.
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Love people judging the weight without any specs ::)
Also last I checked panniers and racks are ACCESSORIES on most Calis.
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The absolute only issue I have/had with current Calis is the crap electrical output. In the Winter months I'm a total wuss - I gotta have my heated jacket, gloves, gadgets, and potential for more even. I would have to think, or hope, this one will offer more in that department and thus, I'll take the white one please ;D
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Kev m,
MANY on this thread are judging all kinds of aspects about this bike based on nothing but a few bad pictures. Diarhea of the mouth (fingers) and constipation of the brain. For crying out loud, it's not even a released model yet.
Mark
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Love people judging the weight without any specs ::)
Also last I checked panniers and racks are ACCESSORIES on most Calis.
I have been riding Guzzis since 1979 and have put of 285,000 miles on my T3 which I have owned since 1979 and I have also put on approx another 200,000 miles on other Guzzis, I now own a V50, 850 T3 and a Cali EV I dont need to see any specs re this model to note that it is a over weight lump, and my Cali EV had panniers and pannier frames fitted as standard, it is a touring bike and touring bikes need luggage packs.
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Kev m,
MANY on this thread are judging all kinds of aspects about this bike based on nothing but a few bad pictures. Diarhea of the mouth (fingers) and constipation of the brain. For crying out loud, it's not even a released model yet.
Mark
many on this thread are using their experience of many years of Guzzi ownership to judge this model. Diarhea of the mouth?? do you allways insult fellow Guzzi owners like that, do you have no manners at all?.
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I'm happy to discuss speculation or likes and dislikes, but I get tired of the "my preferences are better than yours" crap and the ASSumptions made based on photos of a prerelease model.
At least RK made some measurements to analyze some basic dimensions.
And north, I couldn't give two shits how many miles you have on an antique Guzzi, the future is ahead of us, not behind. I think Guzzi is making models that are more true to a T3 than either the current Cali or this proposed replacement.
EDIT AS OF 7/18/12 - Seems that North is remains pissed about this comment to today. I won't delete, unless he asks me too, but I WILL explain it because I THINK he's pissed off about a misunderstanding. This comment was NOT meant to dismiss him, his opinions, or his experience as a whole, but to say that the number of years or miles ridden is irrelevant to one's ability to predict the specifications of pre-production bike. I apologize if he took it personally, as it was not meant that way. Those who know me know that I wouldn't hesitate to say it over a rally campfire, but that it would not be meant in a mean or ill mannered way. Perhaps we're just two people kept apart by a common language. :BEER: EDIT AS OF 7/18/12
I may be new to Guzzi (only about a decade), but I'm pretty sure the majority of Cali models didn't come with bags (Jackal, Stone, Bassa, Special Sport, Classic, Black Eagle etc).
Anyway, there are two types of people, and I'll remain an optimist until proven wrong.
This bike seems to be a step forward for an old platform.
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This bike seems to be a step forward for an old platform.
:+1
I agree. Step forward in the right direction. That's just coming from a younger Guzzi owner. There are many buyers In the 21-35 market that might enjoy a refreshed looking cruiser. If its capable like my current Cali I will be very excited.
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Kev m,
100% agree. This new California seems to be "a step forward in the right direction." My gosh, that would make a great tag line for their ads.
Like I said earlier, anyone who's in love with their old Tonti frame T/T3/G5/EV/Bassa etc. will be able to have one for the rest of their life. For the rest of us and to attract new customers to the Piaggio/Moto Guzzi fold, I'm glad they're moving forward. Anyway, I'm anxious to see this new California up close to really check it out. I suspect they'll have things like windshields, bags, heated grips, luggage racks, a backrest, GPS, and maybe even a center stand available as an accessory.
Mark
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Bravo! I like it. Hopefully Guzzi will make a nice matching set of hardbags for it. It looks very contemporary, and has a style thats very "Italian" . If the ergonomics are good for a touring bike, I think they will have a hit on their hands. I still think Guzzi needs to make a big bore cafe bike styled like the v7 racer. I cant wait to see the new Cali in person. Guzzis always look more impressive in person than in photos.....The Gods are in the details.. ;-T Rick.
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I thought that award belonged to the other Honda, Pacific Coast...
I owned a 1994 Honda Pacific Coast. In my opinion one of the best, most utilitarian motorcylces ever built.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you are entitled to your opinion.
Regarding the newest Cali, again I say.....I like it. I like it a lot.
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(http://s14.postimage.org/8xdtv0t4t/020612top_i.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8xdtv0t4t/)
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/02/piaggio-dealer-meeting-reveals-aprilia-caponard-1200-and-moto-guzzi-california-1400/
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I think the band would look better in leathers.
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I agree mate, I want one
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And north, I couldn't give two shits how many miles you have on an antique Guzzi, the future is ahead of us, not behind.
"dont give two shits" and "diarhea of the mouth", really gents please do not drag this thread down that road, you can do better, much better, ok our views of the new Cali might differ but are we all not entitled to our views?
as far as an 'antique Guzzi' well yes it is old but many people seeing bikes like my T3 with a high mileage have gone on to buying a Guzzi, it might be old but is a good advert for the companys bikes.
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I would argue it's not us who have dragged the thread down, only responded to the vitriol of some.
My point about the antique is that this bike isn't meant to be a T3. Time marches on and I hope other Guzzis fill that roll for you today. But the fact that they've updated the Cali and it might mean a little more wheelbase and comfort doesn't automatically make it a pig or a turd.
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I want to see one in person before making final thoughts public...lol.
But shoot it doesn't really matter, I spent all my money on a white norge anyway...
Walker
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"dont give two shits" and "diarhea of the mouth", really gents please do not drag this thread down that road, you can do better, much better, ok our views of the new Cali might differ but are we all not entitled to our views?
:+1
o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/Noun: 1.A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
Chillax :BEER:
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This latest argument isn't about differences of opinion, it's about how they are expressed.
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If all this business of a new bike was just a smoke screen and Piaggio just came out with a new Tonti framed update, with a new tank and all. I wouldn't kick it out of the bed.
Harley's watercooled VRSC is still not to everybodies taste.
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I just do not think this is gonna sell. But, the traditional-looking CalVin didn't sell very well either.
Maybe the 30-somethings will like it.
Too stylized for me.
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meh
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I find it really hard to believe the shock resevoir is mounted like that. It looks terrible.
The rest of it looks pretty good though.
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Looks a bit like something from a cartoon, a bit forced and over styled to me.
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When did they develop the V3?
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:+1
o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/Noun: 1.A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
Chillax :BEER:
yep... and I concur!!! ;-T ;)
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OK, we've agreed on the definition of "opinion", we should be very proud of ourselves... :BEER:
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...or smoke and mirrors hiding the debut of a new Ambo, that would be a hoot :D
:D
:beat_horse
:D
:wife:
:D
:PICS!:
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looks heavy and large. The floorboards look far forward like a cruiser ???
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What one is prettier.... ???.....the Guzzi 1400 or the triumph Rocket3 ? And which one would you own if you had an extra bucket of cash? ??? ~;
Tim
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;-T That woulda been hela-kewel :D
Unless Piaggio backs the bike with some REAL advertising $$$, it probably won't sell any better than the current Cali. Maybe they should think about enlisting Billy Joel and Ewan McGregor for a photo op on the Cali and scrambler...
Agreed - it really boggles my mind why Piaggio doesn't ADVERTISE. An old mentor once told me "the road to hell is paved with marketing dollars," and I still think that's true, but surely Piaggio/MG (unlike the car companies) would still be on the right side of the diminishing returns curve if they did a little TV in the major motorcycle markets and wealthier urban areas.
I'm lukewarm on the design, btw., but I'm really looking forward to hearing/seeing more on the new engine.
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What is this? The fourth thread on this same exact topic over the past few days?
Too bad WG doesn't have a "thread merge" capability.
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bump
so it's at the top with all the others...
:-\
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bumpity
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:bike
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:bike
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:bike
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When I saw the Breva I immediately thought it was handsome, not gourgeous, but good looking in a functional way. The Griso blew me away when it came out. I thought to myself, "I want that bike". The Norge is handsome. For it's class it looks lightweight and much better than it's competitors. The Cal-Vin was a step up in looks from previous Cali's, very handsome in both the black and white. It could have become a cornerstone bike for Guzzi like HD has with the RoadKing. The V7 Classic & Cafe are great. They captured most of their 70's predecessor's style and did it inexpensively using an existing platform. The Black Eagle was a good looking bike. Even the recent revamp of the 750 Nevada (not for the U.S.) really improved the looks of that bike. Basically Guzzi has been on one big roll when it comes to styling since about 2005.
Then California 90th aniversary edition came out and now this. This new Cali 1400 is not a good looking bike. People can debate it all day long, but I didn't get a great feeling when seeing the bike for the first time. I did get a great feeling when seeing all the bikes mentioned above.
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:bike
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:bike
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:bike
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:bike
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:bike
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(http://i978.photobucket.com/albums/ae266/therotund1/GIF2/kboom.gif)
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With a list price of $18,000, I'd not be a candidate for it. Even though I REALLY like just about everything about it from the few pictures I've seen. Just too much competition from other brands offering more for less at that price point.
With a list of $16,000, I'd be seriously looking when the time was right and I could actually sell my two current bikes for this one.
With a list at $15,000, I think they'd sit around a while the traditional Guzzi buyers wait to find blow out pricing a year or more later.
With a list price of #12,500 for this 'naked' model, I think they'd sell well. Let people buy the accessories they want as they want/need them. But dealers would have to have them available quickly to keep the momentum going.
Anxious to read about when these can actually be seen and sat on,
Mark
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Sometimes, I am amazed at how fast a thread can go south.....
( no disrespect to my southern brothers or other hemispheric cousins...)
kjf
;)
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Cut outs in the tank for cylinders looks a bit ridiculous, IMO. Valve covers are just too damn tall to look good.
Flared-out exhausts are quite V-Maxian, in a good way.
judging by the number of threads active on this topic at the moment, the thing is going to sell like hotcakes!
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I see on one page 12 topics about the same, with same content. Don't you guys never look before posting?
Or is this so important?
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thanks for starting another topic on the 1400.
that's all we needed!
:beat_horse
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:beat_horse :beat_horse
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it's winter so i say 672 :)
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My head was about to explode with reading just the two most recent ones, with all of them bumped up, I now just avoid them all. :(
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+1
i thought there was a virus or the site got hacked. or stuff was double posting. guess not. i haven't read any of them.
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one is almost to many.. that thing is one ugly tank..
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one is almost to many.. that thing is one ugly tank..
+1 No need for me to look at any post's.
Honda had the Rune, Victory has the Vision full bagger that hasn't grown on me and now Guzzi has the California 1400.
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Oh no ..... oh no! Don't hit me again! Oh, the huge manatee!
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I don't like the rear fender, but everything else looks OK to me. How heavy is it?
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I don't like the rear fender, but everything else looks OK to me. How heavy is it?
Don’t know but I think the "weight question" needs a separate topic.
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/vroom.gif)
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:PICS!:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/vroom.gif)
;D
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/vroom.gif)
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/vroom.gif)
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/vroom.gif)
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/vroom.gif)
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/vroom.gif)
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/vroom.gif)
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/vroom.gif)
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/vroom.gif)
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/vroom.gif)
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/vroom.gif)
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Rocker, Skin, Nick...is there a point to the Cali 1400 bandwidth wasting?
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I see on one page 12 topics about the same, with same content. Don't you guys never look before posting?
Or is this so important?
:+1
-AJ
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Hi Kev,
Not really...the waste is to have all those threads to begin with!
May be we should have a Cali 1400 forum somewhere.... and the rest of us could get back to regular programming.
Hell, I actually liked that bike....
Nick
And now we have another ;)
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The 1400 makes the Calvin look a whole lot more desireable. :D If it is as long as the pics seem to make it, Guzzi's traditional problem for large person 2 up riding is solved. Butt ugly stying, but no worse than Triumph Thunderbird, or those wretched Victorys. If I hate it, then it means cruiser fans will love it ;D Good luck Guzzi! Maybe after JB hoses one down in flat black, it will grow on me. :BEER:
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Doesn't matter much to me because I'm not interested in a 1400 cc Guzzi, so I just mentally skip over them. I did notice today that I was skipping over 3 and 4 threads in a row, all about the same thing.
But if it's what people want to talk about, it seems pretty harmless fun ..... ?
Lannis
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/emoticon-0127-lipssealed.gif)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-ol_v5X4QE
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Rocker, Skin, Nick...is there a point to the Cali 1400 bandwidth wasting?
Yeah! Let's get back to some good old fashioned NGC threads!!!
I wonder what type of oil the new Cali 1400 uses?
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I figured there was a reason and I'd inquire about it in one place
I AM interested in the bike, so I was checking to see if by some small chance there was something new, but I guess I can stop.
Honestly I'm excited about planning another Guzzi purchase, though it looks like I'll have to sit on that money a while.
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(http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/533333.1020.A.jpg)
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My head was about to explode with reading just the two most recent ones, with all of them bumped up, I now just avoid them all. :(
wheres the ignore button for posts not people!
this could be called the Anti 14oo thread.. I bet the designer of that tank wasn't even Italian..
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How heavy is it?
apparently very it's loading down the forum..
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Lots of threads for such a boring(so far)looking bike.
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wheres the ignore button for posts?
Foto,
not a bad idea ;-T
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Rocker, Skin, Nick...is there a point to the Cali 1400 bandwidth wasting?
Kev, you didn't ask me but....there's a point in discussing the Cali 1400. No point I can see in multiple threads wasting bandwidth all related to the bike. :bow
Jim
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I figured there was a reason and I'd inquire about it in one place
I AM interested in the bike, so I was checking to see if by some small chance there was something new, but I guess I can stop.
Honestly I'm excited about planning another Guzzi purchase, though it looks like I'll have to sit on that money a while.
I wonder how many other's have money in hand, waiting for Piaggio to actually ship the new models to the U.S. Maybe an online petition is in order.
What self-respecting business would say no to: "Here is my cash, please take it". Maybe if there are enough people that want to buy now, they'd finally accept the business.
Otherwise, I know at least one customer (not saying any names, Kev) they may lose to Harley on this purchase.
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Rocker, Skin, Nick...is there a point to the Cali 1400 bandwidth wasting?
Goofy,,,,, yes.
But then, we have a thread about oats going. ::)
I'm avoiding all threads about the 1400. I have concerns about it as seen in the photos. In person, it may only be sort of a turd, not a chrome plated turd.
:o
:BEER:
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Ironically, this thread is one pic away from becoming part of the problem.
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All of these 1400 threads got me wondering: if a big, ugly guy like me was sitting on an exceptionally ugly motorcycle, would I somehow seem less ugly by comparison or would I just be an ugly guy with bad taste? :bike
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Well, its better than any bike I ever designed...
It looks to me like 4 or more design teams worked on it without collaborating. All stripes and plaid. Looking at the side, I see at least 4 clashing areas. The engine case waffle form is 35 years old. That's not good or bad, it just clashes with other areas, like the cheap looking starter cover. What's under the starter that has to be hidden. The best thing to help this bikes look would be to toss it out sq foot of plastic covering the starter. The whole piece looks like an after thought. Now compare the ribbed style of the silver crap to the minimalist shape of the blackened piece directly behind it. The horizontal fins on top of the valve cover and the lines of the cylinder fins are ever so slightly angled to each other. They might be off by one degree, not enough for the eye to intuitively see it as parallel or as angled. Consider the swooping tank line and the rectangular fins on the valve cover. It would look so much better if the jugs and heads were rounded off and could flow with the tank cut around them. I could go on, but this is starting to feel like work...
I'd gladly take yours for a spin if you buy one.
Matt
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I don't get the excitement about the Moto Guzzi 1400. Why would they even want to do up a monster low tech motor when then can enhance what they have which by the way already fits existing frames etc. Trying to keep up with the competition? If they are looking for power, which they certainly could use, there is more than enough in 1200 or so CC.. As a matter of fact my 10 year old Honda makes at least 180 gross HP from 1100CC si I know its doable. Bet Guzzi could even figure how to make reliable power at 10,000 RPM..now that would be nice.
Want a big low tech motor that is good at turning gas into noise, Harley or Victory are two that come to mind.
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I don't get the excitement about the Moto Guzzi 1400. Why would they even want to do up a monster low tech motor when then can enhance what they have which by the way already fits existing frames etc. Trying to catch up to the competition? If they are looking for power, which they certainly could use, there is more than enough in 1200 or so CC.. As a matter of fact my 10 year old Honda makes at least 180 gross HP from 1100CC si I know its doable. Bet Guzzi could even figure how to make reliable power at 10,000 RPM..now that would be nice.
Want a big low tech motor that is good at turning gas into noise, Harley or Victory are two that come to mind.
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Ironically, this thread is one pic away from becoming part of the problem.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/fotoguzzi/IMG_0670.jpg)
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I don't know why, but some have taken the 1400 speculations and run amonk. Seems pretty sure to me that we won't get any real details on the new bike until the next big European show this fall, so lets move on.
If I ran across this forum today for the first time, I would think it was mostly a few lunkheads with nothing much to say.
Life is short, our brains are degrading as we age, lets try our best to with what we have ok?
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whoops, I see Kev M is already working on this!
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=51849.0
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Now there are almost as many threads discussing the number of Cali 1400 threads as there are Cali 1400 threads.
It must be winter.
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"monster low tech motor"
Based on what??
Mark
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Rocker, Skin, Nick...is there a point to the Cali 1400 bandwidth wasting?
I didn't start all those threads, my friend.
The points are:
1) WG has a search function.
2) WG needs a merge function.
;-T
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I see on one page 12 topics about the same, with same content. Don't you guys never look before posting?
Or is this so important?
Paul, that was exactly my point in bringing them all to the top of page 1 at one time.
1) WG has a search funtion.
2) WG needs a merge function.
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I'm over it already, chasing rocker59's motorcycle thru the threads was exhausting... I'm glad his emoticon ran outta gas :D
:bike
:BEER:
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Goofy,,,,, yes.
But then, we have a thread about oats going. ::)
I'm avoiding all threads about the 1400. I have concerns about it as seen in the photos. In person, it may only be sort of a turd, not a chrome plated turd.
:o
:BEER:
Wot Wayne sed.
Lets face it. When it is launched all of the people who are quivering with excitement are going to see one on the floor and they are going to complain bitterly that its too expensive, they can't service it at home, (Even though they don't service their current bikes at home.) and it won't come with a trailer hitch and Moto Guzzi caravan accessory pack!
Carry on......
(http://img3.lln.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/03072008/2/a/f/b/2afb834a61ff50_full.jpg)
VDG
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Yup; there sure were a lot of threads about the 1400. The part that gets me is that most of them hadn't had any activity for a long time, and were buried away to rest peacefully in the Archives. Why bring them all back at the same time? Potential new models are going to get talked about. Each time there's some news, it's going to generate a new thread or two. I bet if you chased down threads about the Stelvio or Norge, you'd find a slew of threads about them, as well.
I think somebody discovered how to use the Search function, and was showing off his skill.
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Crikey if it ever happens it will be like the second coming.
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Pete, one question?
"ALL of the people"?
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So this morning, I had a bagel with my coffee. Sorry, didn't want to let this scintillating thread slow down. Thread 12 anyone? Dave
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I don't really get Lank's post.
A blackbird motor (or chassis) is nothing like a Guzzi, nor is it the mark they are trying to hit.
The remark about Harley and Victory and your signature explain it though. You simply don't get and/or want this type of bike. That's fine, but your tone is as if this bike then shouldn't exist and that doesn't make sense.
As for the current chassis there's only so much you can do to update it and the motor.
I don't personally care for the seemingly never ending cubic arms race, but I understand it enough to know that 1100-1200cc is just not going to be perceived as enough by that market (even if I know it's all I'd ever need).
To that end I'm kinda glad they ONLY are talking 1400cc.
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I'm sick of the bike already. Can't you guys trim the number of threads down some. Gee!
Dean
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I like it and I LOVE the tail light! :wife: Can't wait to see it in person.
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I LOVE the tail light!
:BEER: <--------- Charlie
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The new Cali must have something going for it to inspire all this buzz...........
Nick (one of the other ones)
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I think somebody discovered how to use the Search function, and was showing off his skill.
1. No, they were not buried into the depths of wildguzzi. They were scattered in the first 2 pages.
2. Most of them had some valid observation/opinion (either pro or con).IMO
3. All of them, together/merged, may have been even useful.
4. Someone "should" learn to "search" first, before starting a new thread/topic.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/ndicroce/emoticons/sadomaso.gif)
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Want a big low tech motor that is good at turning gas into noise, Harley or Victory are two that come to mind.
With overhead cams, four valves per cylinder, hydraulic lifters and hydraulic cam chain tensioners, don't know as I'd call the Victory motor "low-tech".
That being said, I think I've seen enough Cali 1400 threads, too...
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, don't know as I'd call the Victory motor "low-tech".
"Low stressed" "low output" might be better word choices.
Just say an ad for a Ford 1/2 ton truck...has a 317HP 3.7L V-6 now I don't know that that's what I would want but we have come far from when the light truck standard was 5 liters at 300 HP
Point is is that with all the technology available, hell lets use some of it. Power available equates to efficiencies
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Point is is that with all the technology available, hell lets use some of it. Power available equates to efficiencies
But that might be missing the point, might it not?
Not every vehicle should have the same power curves nor ergonmics (which includes size/shape/mass), nor maintenance requirements either.
And how much power is available is a result of decisions made on all of those factors.
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I'm sick of the bike already. Can't you guys trim the number of threads down some. Gee!
Dean
Hey Dean, my Friend,
How are you?
Here is a 21-pager from Italy...yeah it's in Italian, but it has plenty of pictures ;D ;D ;D
http://forum.animaguzzista.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46463&hilit=cali+1400
Nick
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Look again. Many of those threads were from last September. Rocker59 pulled them up, then Skin Mechanic commented on them. Then others may or may not have added comments.
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I find this all amusing. All these threads about a nonexisting motorcycle. And then a thread about all the threads. It does make for some interesting reading. Seems more evidence to the lack of global warming. Everyone would be out riding instead of setting in front of a computer. Personaly I could care less about either. After a moment of thought (dangerous territory), I don't think I can. So that should read, as hard as I try, I couldn't care less.
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So does this now count as a another 1400 thread? Just asking.
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The point could have been to attract the attention of the thred police.
I'd say they were successful.
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Look again. Many of those threads were from last September. Rocker59 pulled them up, then Skin Mechanic commented on them. Then others may or may not have added comments.
There were three or four on the first page. A couple days ago, one of our regular member started a new thread with a photo and a comment that were EXACTLY the same photo and comment of another thread he started EXACTLY one year ago.
The main point of the exercise was to point out that there is a shite-load of information that has already been discussed on this forum. Chances are, a simple search, like "California 1400", will net you a dozen threads you can add comments to, rather than start yet another one...
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So does this now count as a another 1400 thread? Just asking.
It wasn't "the point" but threads become what they may regardless of their originator's purpose...
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Pete, one question?
"ALL of the people"?
Yup! Every last one of 'em!!!!! ~;
VDG
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Yup! Every last one of 'em!!!!! ~;
VDG
But but...aw F@#%# it, maybe I will just buy a Harley instead... :BEER:
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It looks neat with bags.. If were into this style of bike... ;D
(http://s13.postimage.org/ge2i10lmr/mgt.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ge2i10lmr/)
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Wot Wayne sed.
Lets face it. When it is launched all of the people who are quivering with excitement are going to see one on the floor and they are going to complain bitterly that its too expensive, they can't service it at home, (Even though they don't service their current bikes at home.) and it won't come with a trailer hitch and Moto Guzzi caravan accessory pack!
Carry on......
(http://img3.lln.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/03072008/2/a/f/b/2afb834a61ff50_full.jpg)
VDG
no trailer hitch!! thats a deal breaker.
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If it has 40MPG and a 6 gallon fuel tank I am in.
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if it has a 6 gallon fuel tank and 40MPG (US) I'm in.
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how much fuel capacity?
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Fuel capacity? MPG?? ;) 8)
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What is the air speed velocity of an unladen sparrow?
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It depends on whether you are talking about an African or European swallow.
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What is your favorite color?
Blue, No Yellow
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Guess what, guys, the photos weren't real. It's all a photoshop hoax. You've been obsessing over nothing. There is no 1400 California, Guzzi changed its mind.
Now can we stop the 425 current threads on this? Please?
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It depends on whether you are talking about an African or European swallow.
Bring me a shrubbery!
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...that can't possibly be true, can it? Why would they do that unless they have fusion powered version on the drawing board and they are trying to keep it a deep dark secret?
Conspiracy theory! I love it!
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One not so high, so it creates a path, yes a path a path
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BUT....what about the fuel capacity!!!! ~; :BEER: ~; :BEER:
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Does anyone know about the fuel mileage? How about fuel capacity? ~; :BEER: :bike
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Thanks Nick, awesome link. I don't read Italian but it still seems to work.
If some of you guys are tired of the Cali 1400 threads, why open them up and post on them???
All the best,
Mark
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Oh, piss on the fuel capacity! We're talking about the mass of this bike. Try to stay focused.
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Just kidding. However, I would like to say that some of you are acting like very cranky old men re: too many threads on the 1400. With attitudeslike that,, you'll never get a nubile young woman, with major league ta-tas to sit on your laps ever again.
I think Calamity Jane is need of some wheel bearings, and I have a question about them. Is there anything special about them that I would have to buy wheel bearings for a California Stone rather than just going to my nearest Honda dealer and saying "While you are changing the tires, will change the wheel bearings for me? That's a good lad, now off you go and be lively!" Clint, at Harper's didn't know the answer to this question, so I'm asking the experts on this board to give me the straight sknny.
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What's a Honda? ;) 8)
They may not have the parts information at the Honda dealer to know if they have the bearings or not. I have been told by the knowledgeable staff at various discount automobile parts places that they did not sell wheel bearings for motorcycles. ::) :bike
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Oh, piss on the fuel capacity! We're talking about the mass of this bike. Try to stay focused.
:-* :-* 8)
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It seems that some tired of optimism and just want to piss on others...
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It seems that some tired of optimism and just want to piss on others...
I understand the relationships between RPM Vs Torque curve Vs CC Vs DOHC Vs HP Vs Heron head etc.
I think you do to.
If around the campfire, for example, somebobody said that he'd like the next Cali to be a high revvin' engine of the same capacity with monster truck mid range torque.
They're not pissing on others.
We're just a couple of guys shooting the bull.
Why the aggro?
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Hey Dean, my Friend,
How are you?
Nick
Doing just great Nick. Hope to see you and your Yankee friends at some rallies this year. I would guess the National in Virginia will be the first.
Thanks,
Dean
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Steph, I'm not talking about actual discussion of what people would want I'm responding directly to Mark's question of why bump and post if you DON'T want to discuss.
That said I also think there's a huge difference in saying "I'm a Cali fan and would like to buy an updated Cali, but this isn't what I want because..."
And
"This sucks, it's ugly, too big, too slow, too uncomfortable, doesn't make enough power" etc when we DON'T KNOW THAT YET SINCE IT'S NOT DONE AND WE HAVE NO SPECS.
I also note that a percentage of those comments come from people who have nothing like the current Cali in their stable which reminds me of Harley bashers who simply don't want that type of bike so they feel a need to go around criticizing it to all that do.
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re the comments in general:
I take everything with a grain of salt. ;)
-Even Specs! Remember the early GPZ550 reported doing low/mid 12 second quarter miles? Years later the Kawasaki rep admitted that those were very special, ported & polished, blue printed bikes. I remember the local guys at our track could only get do 13.2 with them ... :D
Personally, I don't think Guzzi's next bike has to be a world's best at anything. It just needs to be desirable, highly desirable, leave your wife desirable 8)
Who would have thought, back in 1991 that the Nevada would turn into the current desirable V7?
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re the comments in general:
I take everything with a grain of salt. ;)
I do too, but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to debate what I don't agree with or call someone out when they're being a wanker. ;)
-Even Specs!
LOL :BEER:
True, but they're a good starting point.
Who would have thought, back in 1991 that the Nevada would turn into the current desirable V7?
NOT ME FOR SURE. I couldn't be happier with the visual design of the V7 compared with many of the previous smallblocks!
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If the V7 Racer X made it to market (with the disk up front), then that would become the most desirable choice.
:thumb
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"Who makes Honda?"
Why. Moto Guzzi of course! ;) ;-T
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AND 4 or 5 complaining about em.......... :BEER: ~; P:) :+=copcar :beat_horse :wife:.........time to get back to the winter projects...
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The guys at the parts counter get that blank stare when they get the answer to "what vehicle?" I'd rather tell them the part and it's number.
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At least Moto Guzzi tends to use easily available bearings, whereas Honda tend to use bearings that you can only get from your friendly Honda dealer. All the bearings (baring the three specialised use bearings which were still standard in size and the split caged one that 5th runs on that WAS a special) were all off the shelf bog standard type. ;-T
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Muzz:
Thanks for the input. I feel like no vehicle maker would use anything but off the shelf bearings.
I have ordered new Moto Guzzi wheel bearings, and when I get them, i'm going take the dimensions off them, and then try to cross reference them to some bearing manufacturer's specs. Hopefully I'll comne up with a match.
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Goose are you following me? Stop following me, I don't know you! Help!
Actually, your question is a good one, and no one will really know until they actually get around to selling the bloody thing.
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For the many that hate the look of the 'cruiserish' 1400 Cal, is there any chance the bare chassis might support several different formats of bikes? Just a thought.
Bob
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Wow, Carl, good answer, and exactly what I was looking for.
I bet the bearings I need will be there.
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I think it's an OK first draft. I like the larger alternator a lot. I still wouldn't buy a first year model. This is my policy an anything, but even more so with Moto Guzzi. They'll get the new model worked out in time to trade in my (by then) high mileage and well worn California Vintage for one, but time is on my side.
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Overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's "too ugly: go back to the drawing board!" so doubtful that we'll see it.
I guess that depends on where you stand in the consensus, I remember it being fairly well split.
:+1 ;-T
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:+1
:+1 ;-T
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Overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's "too ugly: go back to the drawing board!" so doubtful that we'll see it. Don't forget that it took the MGS '01 and the Griso both about 5 years to actually make it off the concept vehicle stage & into the dealer catalog... Despite Piaggio's takeover of Guzzi, I don't think that part is going to change all that much! ;)
I thought that the consensus was a reasonably even split of lovers & loathers. You may be right re the timescale however.
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Some other picture, higher res....
http://www.ganassinmoto.it/listing/nuova-moto-guzzi-california/
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On second thought... Not really liking that headlight
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California Gas tank:
(http://www.motoguzzicalifornia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/2004MotoGuzziCaliforniaEV.jpg)
California Egg Plant:
(http://www.cityroom.com/stories/gourmet/files/2012/01/eggplant_0.preview.jpg)
Add a seat on the back of that eggplant and some chrome panels.
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Did you account for it being up on a rear stand?
When I did the same thing, using the 18" front wheel as my measure, I got something closer to 27".
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Although I believe this bike could have attracted a significant number of American riders, in my opinion, and in the general market's opinion, it is about 6 years late to the party.
the fact is, according to current market trends I've been reading about, boomers that were going to buy a bike have done so already, and a lot of them are actually trying to get rid of them because they do not ride them, or are getting too old to ride... or unfortunately can't afford them anymore.
The "middle class" has been hit hardest by current economic problems, and does not have any money to spend on leisure vehicles.
The new generation of riders wants something sportier, OR wants something more functional and practical like a commuter bike.
So weather or not you really like or dislike the looks of this bike, the fact is... nobody will buy a 1400cc monster bike, except maybe Harley people...who wouldn't be caught dead riding Italian.
Apparently, the rest of the industry is moving it's focus on 250's and or < 500cc motorcycles, in order to cater to a younger crowd just getting started, who cannot afford the big monster bike or don't have the experience to handle them. This may not be a world wide trend... but it certainly IS a trend where I'm from North--NORTH America).
Maybe I'm wrong... But small scooter sales have gone up 300% since 2001 and bigger bikes sales have been declining.
I guess we'll see.
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Rex,
You can say that all you want, but big cruisers dominate the USA market.
That's just the way it is.
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Rex,
You can say that all you want, but big cruisers dominate the USA market.
That's just the way it is.
Detail...
Harley-Davidson dominates the USA Market.
To me, and I'm not trying to be pessimistic, There's Harley, then there's Honda selling cheap knock-off Harleys, then there's everyone else.
And I don't even like harleys, but that's beside the point.
In my humble opinion, trying to compete with Harley on the US market, is like trying to compete with Apple in the pad market.
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Rex, I disagree.
If your analysis was correct the Ducati Diavel and Triumph Thunderbird would not be the successes they are.
European bikes appeal to a unique (and growing) segment in the US market that is very different from the me-too Asian Harley clones.
I also think you overestimate the draw of smaller displacement bikes in the marketplace. Not to say they aren't a growth segment, but far from the majority.
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I think as far as the Euro bikes you're probably right. They have a lot of appeal to people who are looking for something different.
But Harley and Honda have close to 60% of the US market share.
Harley alone is ~29%.
All I'm saying, basically, is that if I were Guzzi, the LAST segment I would be investing mass amounts of development money is... is the very large displacement cruiser... it makes no sense to me to try and take on Harley-Davidson on their home turf. You're attacking the most dominant player, in a slightly declining market segment... makes no sense to me... none at all.
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It's time to call in a priest and give this thread its Last Rites...ple-e-e-e-z-z-z! ::)
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I'm not 100% convinced this IS really going to be in the VERY LARGE cruiser segment much more than the Cali was.
I think it's a niche segment of Euro tourer.
Not as big as Harley or Vic or...but big and comfortable enough while hopefully still handling.
Remember Guzzi normally sells MAYBE 2.5% of what Harley does worldwide in a good year, barely 0.5% of Harley's sales in the US. It doesn't take that many customers stolen from Harley to make it a banner year for Guzzi.
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Rex said, "the fact is... nobody will buy a 1400cc monster bike, except maybe Harley people...who wouldn't be caught dead riding Italian."
Rex, that is not a fact.
As Kev said, Guzzi is only going to need to pull a small fraction of cruiser buyers to make the 1400 a big success.
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.
All I'm saying, basically, is that if I were Guzzi, the LAST segment I would be investing mass amounts of development money is... is the very large displacement cruiser... l.
Who says they are investing MASS amounts of dollars here. I'm sure its a good percentage of the cash from piaggio but not as much as you and I think. This new engine better not be reserved just for the new Cali. I hope to see it in many Guzzis to come.
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The more I see it the more I like it.
Mark
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Rex, the California stands on its own terms. It's not a Harley, or a Harley clone. It's not a Victory. It's not a Triumph. It's a Moto Guzzi.
The California line has long had a significant place in Moto Guzzi's lineup, particularly in the US market. It's predecessors, the Ambassador and Eldorado, equally so. Yet, it's clear to everyone that the current California is long in the tooth. The Vintage and the Black Eagle were noble efforts, but they were simply variations on an outdated platform.
So, a successor to the California line was called for. Or, not. I guess Piaggio could have simply said the 90th Anniversary model was the end of the line, and call it a day. I, for one, am glad that they seem to have other plans.
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As Kev said, Guzzi is only going to need to pull a small fraction of cruiser buyers to make the 1400 a big success.
Yeah, 1000 units per year would be a hit for Guzzi. They live in a different universe from HD + Big 4.
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Detail...
Harley-Davidson dominates the USA Market.
To me, and I'm not trying to be pessimistic, There's Harley, then there's Honda selling cheap knock-off Harleys, then there's everyone else.
And I don't even like harleys, but that's beside the point.
In my humble opinion, trying to compete with Harley on the US market, is like trying to compete with Apple in the pad market.
With Guzzi's 0.002% market share in the USA, they're not "taking on", or "competing" with anyone.
They're just trying to sell a few thousand bikes per year.
The California has been around for 40-years, so it's only natural that Guzzi would continue with something in that vein.
HD sells just over 25% of streetbikes in the USA. Honda sells just under 25%. Everyone else gets to "compete" for the other half of the market. Guzzi just wants to sell a few bikes...
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I guess you all have good points.
I probably just don't understand the brand enough.
I just wish I saw more Guzzi's out there...
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I'm not sure anyone really understands the brand... :D
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If we did understand it, we probably wouldn't be here... :D
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/miscellaneous-bike-photos/0288430-R1-042-19A1/177975516_YGbGk-M.jpg)
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Sorry if this was already spoken about. Looks kinda interesting. http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2012/February/feb1712-moto-guzzi-california-1400-leaked/
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Nope. Haven't seen a single thread about it....
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Sorry if this was already spoken about. Looks kinda interesting. http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2012/February/feb1712-moto-guzzi-california-1400-leaked/
nice i wonder how much it weighs is it water cooled man those valve covers sure look tall .
sitting back waiting to see where this goes
:drool :pop :pop :beat_horse
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What is this no. 15 thread on the 1400 California? :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop
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Argggh. Kill it quick before it multiples!! :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse Dave
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Nope. Haven't seen a single thread about it....
:D ;) :D. YouCan = winning!
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Holy Crap!
You mean Piaggio is sticking some monster 1400 engine in a Tonti?
WTF?
No way it'll fit!
~;
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Probably a design experiment, made out of wood. ;D
Dean
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Does this make thread number 15 or is it 16? ;) :BEER:
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So Lee you can probably quess we have seen this before.
And are actualy making fun of our last 3 week ordeal here.
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So Lee you can probably quess we have seen this before.
And are actualy making fun of our last 3 week ordeal here.
This. Certainly no offense intended to the original poster..
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Argggh. Kill it quick before it multiples!! :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse Dave
THIS^^^^^^^
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Probably a design experiment, made out of wood. ;D
Dean
How do you know shes made of wood?
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What was it 9 concurrent threads running on the 1400??? :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop
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If she floats...she's made of wood...if she's made of wood...she's a WITCH
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This is thread 1400 on the Cali 1400. ::) :D
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Doe the 1400 require Nitrogen in the tires? If so, will it require OEM Nitrogen? You know...the Italian kind.
Jim
:pop :BEER:
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Oh, and they say it LEAKED already?? :BEER:
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Found a pic on the web of the new cali that I hadn't seen before on the forum at
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/02/piaggio-dealer-meeting-reveals-aprilia-caponard-1200-and-moto-guzzi-california-1400/
Looks nice in grey
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:pop
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the 70's Tonti are looking better every day!... ;D
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Found a pic on the web of the new cali that I hadn't seen before on the forum at
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/02/piaggio-dealer-meeting-reveals-aprilia-caponard-1200-and-moto-guzzi-california-1400/
Looks nice in grey
You're just kidding, right ::)
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I love Wild Guzzi
:BEER:
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:pop :+1 :BEER:
Matt
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I'm showing restraint here and only bumping one...
:+=copcar
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Found a pic on the web
FWIW:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=51709.0
(and there are about a dozen more)
:BEER:
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I just wish I saw more Guzzi's out there...
So do I. I finally resorted to buying a second one, because my V7C was getting lonely. ;D
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Found a pic on the web of the new cali that I hadn't seen before on the forum at
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/02/piaggio-dealer-meeting-reveals-aprilia-caponard-1200-and-moto-guzzi-california-1400/
Looks nice in grey
Do the Brits do April Fool's Day on 1 March instead of 1 April? :D
Bill
P.S. Actually saw trees budding this morning ... in Rock Island ... on 1 March. Bet that's rare 'round here. It's (almost) spring! :bike
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(http://www.ganassinmoto.it/wp-content/themes/default/scripts/timthumb.php?src=http://www.ganassinmoto.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/California-1400-2012-518.jpg&w=436&h=300&zc=1&q=90)
Just looking at how far forward the boards are is a real turn off for me. All styling issues aside, I always expect a Guzzi to be made to be ridden, and I just don't think having your feet way out in front is a good thing for riding in twisties or long distances.
Maybe it's a perspective thing in the pics and it won't be as bad as it looks. I hope that is the case. Perhaps people will figure out a way to modify it for pegs in a better position but it doesn't look like it would be easy without modifying the exhaust and that is going to be illegal in California by the time this bike is out.
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Remember the Norton Hi-Rider? Guzzi is next! ;D
Or the Ducati Indiana? Or any of those horrible Japanese "customs" from the late '70's - early '80's? They all tried to chase Harley-Davidson, and they all failed, in one way or another. What made the California line unique and special is that Moto Guzzi wasn't trying to chase H-D, they were trying to offer an alternative. I'm hoping that Piaggio remembers that.
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Or the Ducati Indiana? Or any of those horrible Japanese "customs" from the late '70's - early '80's? They all tried to chase Harley-Davidson, and they all failed, in one way or another. What made the California line unique and special is that Moto Guzzi wasn't trying to chase H-D, they were trying to offer an alternative. I'm hoping that Piaggio remembers that.
I understand what you're saying from a chassis balance/performance/handling/braking standpoint, but I would argue they were still chasing HD aesthetically, just doing so without compromising performance - which is what made them unique and attractive.
In that sense, I agree and hope very much this effort doesn't sacrifice that to hit some sort of target that HD too often hits (which is to say, to fall shy of that handling and braking mark).
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Or the Ducati Indiana? Or any of those horrible Japanese "customs" from the late '70's - early '80's? They all tried to chase Harley-Davidson, and they all failed, in one way or another. What made the California line unique and special is that Moto Guzzi wasn't trying to chase H-D, they were trying to offer an alternative. I'm hoping that Piaggio remembers that.
I absolutely agree, but this bike doesn't look like a Harley clone to me.
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I have been looking for a new cruiser/tourer for some time now and this 1400 California has caught my eye.
I previously had an 1250 V rod which had a good engine, loved the feet forward cruising position but hated the handling, suspension and brakes.
I have ridden all of the big twin cylinder bikes but dislike there very slow unresponsive natures to me they feel like they must all have flywheels off tractors to make there engines so unresponsive.
Which brings me to this new 1400, I note the current 1150 eng has around 105 hp and revs to around 7500, does anyone have any Idea of hp and revs of this new 1400 maybe bore and stroke dimensions ??. What I was hoping for was around the same 125hp as my old Vrod (perhaps wishful thinking) and possibly touch more torque, but far better handling , suspension and brakes not to forget a large loss in weight (Vrods 290kg dry) and still a comfortable feet forward riding position
I have been looking for this sort of info on this new 1400 but cant find anything, has anyone got any idea at this stage
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I think I've stayed out of all 46 threads concerning the new Cali, but I have a real use for this new design, one that not many of us on the board would care for, but a perfect match for this bike.
It would be ideal for a trike conversion :o, and that's all I'm gonna say about that :BEER:
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No.
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bradford pears have been blooming that last 2 days.
???
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From the images we saw, it seems the 1400 is a rebored 1200.
The cylinder has the same number of fins, and is probable they saved the existing crankshaft and piston rod. The heads appear to be the same, with two spark plugs (due to the larger bore), and the piston has a sort of heron chamber (having the same head with bigger displacement, part of the combustion chamber must be dug on the piston).
So it may be boreXstroke 104X81.2.
With the same valves for a bigger displacement (and heavier pistons), is unlikely to see a great improvement in max power. And is unlikely they intend to obtain it in the California. An improvement in low and mid rev torque is what we can expect
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I absolutely agree, but this bike doesn't look like a Harley clone to me.
Oh, I agree with YOU... but... remember, the pictures we've seen are of prototypes. It looks like the engineers are pretty much done, but the designers are still tinkering. IIRC, we don't even have a release date, yet. Fingers crossed, Piaggio Group doesn't screw the pooch.
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Gee, only 2 new 1400 threads this week! Things are slowing down :-\
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and still a comfortable feet forward riding position
If you really want the feet forward position you should be looking at bikes with the cylinders configured differently.
On this forum confortable and feet forward are mutually exclusive terms.
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All that needs is a FBF crossover with a set of compitizones an a nice trip to Eureka Springs to try her out on the curves.
Gary
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This is all we know:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=48914.0
A simple search of "1400" will reveal a couple dozen threads on the new Cal 14 that will provide you with plenty of entertainment and maybe a little bit of additional info.
:bike
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Because of the specifications on the last 5 or 6 Guzzi models it is almost a certainty that this one will specify 10W-60 Full Synthetic 4-Stroke Race oil, thereby turning this thread into an oil thread! ;D Heh, heh, heh...
Oh, I don't see any need for that expensive stuff.. heh heh heh...
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If you're looking for a V-Rod style motorcycle with some real oomph and decent handling, take a look at the Ducati Diavel. It's actually a pretty nice bike, and surprisingly light for its kind.
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If you're looking for a V-Rod style motorcycle with some real oomph and decent handling, take a look at the Ducati Diavel. It's actually a pretty nice bike, and surprisingly light for its kind.
I have ridden the diavel a number of times and for what I want it certainly doesn't suit ie legs cramped up,very viby (if that's a word) terrific handling thou. I have a gen 2 Vmax for that sort of riding anyway, I was just looking for something more laid back and comfortable
OK so I get the impression we really no nothing much about the 1400 at this stage, do we have an idea on when it maybe released ??
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OK so I get the impression we really no nothing much about the 1400 at this stage, do we have an idea on when it maybe released ??
Sadly no - and probably not for a while, though sooner for you than us...
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This is all we know:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=48914.0
A simple search of "1400" will reveal a couple dozen threads on the new Cal 14 that will provide you with plenty of entertainment and maybe a little bit of additional info.
:bike
That thread helped thanks, I have never heard of a 4 valve head with two plugs, are we sure its a 4 valve head ??
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Aren't all the CARC bikes dual plugged regardless of whether they have a 2V head or a 4V head?
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Aren't all the CARC bikes dual plugged regardless of whether they have a 2V head or a 4V head?
Well, the Norges are, I *assume* the Beavers are..
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To ask another stupid question, do these engines run a balance shaft
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Here is some more information about the California 1400 from Piaggio’s annual dealer meeting in Monte Carlo. Basically it looks like the bike will go into production in sometime between July and September. In addition, the "booming V-Twin engine is not expected to deliver more than 110 peak horsepower, that power will come at moderate rpm, not more than 6000, and with great torque, also from low rpm."
http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/03/09/2013-moto-guzzi-california-1400-and-2014-aprilia-caponord-first-look/
(http://www.cycleworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2013-Moto-Guzzi-California-1400_001.jpg)
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Nope, it doesn't work for my eyes, at all. My SM Breva is much more logical. ymmv
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Is there a hinge in the middle?
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coming soon:
(http://s17.postimage.org/om9ckoxvv/roadog_roaddog_custom_motorcycle.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/om9ckoxvv/)
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Looks like somebody tried to draw a California and got some of the details wrong. Maybe they're shooting for the long'n'low cruiser look? :o
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This is an April Fool's joke.......... right ? ::) :D
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As far as I can tell, Cycleworld has the same information all of us do already. They are making a prediction based on nothing but conjecture.
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where are the bags? Where do I put my groceries?
Maybe a nice weekend ride but I use my Guzzi for everyday tasks.
OTOH I don't mind the engine look. Just put it in to a chassis that can be used for more than bar to bar.
Ride safe and often,
Jeff
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If they aren't gonna make the Scrambler, Arrow needs to put those pipes into production!!! They have badassitude for days!!!!! I can buy fork gaiters and make my own ;D
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My wife would say, "Each to their own bad taste." I wouldn't buy a Moto Guzzi Rune.
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I think it is a beauty and I don't even like floor boards!!
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Didn't think about the side covers. Well hell, there are a bunch of talented fabricators out there. I still think a kit would be feasible for a reasonable price if Guzzi doesn't make it. I love the Scrambler look.
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As far as I can tell, Cycleworld has the same information all of us do already. They are making a prediction based on nothing but conjecture.
+1
Now we have fifteen Cal 14 threads to choose from.
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Nope, it doesn't work for my eyes, at all. My SM Breva is much more logical. ymmv
Logic is highly over rated when discussing motorbikes.
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I think it is beautiful. I seem to recall a lot of hatred for the look of the Griso, too at first but it grows on you.
That is one bad a$$ looking motorcycle. I would buy one, for sure! ;-T
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The bikes from the 70's-80's are looking even better :bike
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Sorry, that does'nt really work for me. It looks like an elongated SAUSAGE or something equally alien!! ;D :D ;) :o :o ::) ::) ??? ??? Maybe in person it might be better looking ??? ???
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Not a joke but not my next Guzzi either. Different crowd, that's for sure. Now if Piaggio/Moto Guzzi had brought this little jewel to fruition, I'd be saving my pennies up.
(http://www.cycleworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/1296667979moto_guzzi_v7_scrambler.jpg)
According to the Piaggio rep that called me (in response to something completely unrelated), the Scrambler was cut because of the lawsuit potential possible for a passenger to burn their leg on the exhaust.
Couldn't possibly be that Triumph's "Scrambler" has high pipes ?
Lawyers get in the way, some Chinese mob did a perfect 3 wheel scooter copy, got taken away by POLICE in Italy, that's harsh.
Trial by 12 of our peers is fairer IMHO, Chinky one might have solved some intrinsic problem FAIK
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what a pig!
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If this turns out to be a nice bike I'm gonna laugh so hard at some of you curmudgeons. :BEER:
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"Song of the Sausage Creature!!" ;D ;D :D :D ;) ;) :) :)
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If this turns out to be a nice bike I'm gonna laugh so hard at some of you curmudgeons. :BEER:
It'll probably be Guzzi's top seller the first year it's out. ;D
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Well, you can't please everyone. Moto Guzzi just needs to please a few thousand to be successful. I am sure they will and it will be a big success. I like it. I would buy it, but I plan to keep my EV for a few more years first.
Porschefiles complained about the Cayenne. "Wouldn't have one. It will be the ruin of Porsche". Well we all know how that worked. They may not have sold them to the Porsche faithful, but they sold a boatload to new buyers. A big win for Porsche and it insured their viability. They have been on an upswing ever since.
I hope the same for Moto Guzzi. I support the new directions. It's not enough to please the present owners of the marque. They need new blood.
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I don't think this Guzzi was meant to sell in much numbers to guys like us. We already love Guzzi, but most of the M/C world does not. So if you were Piaggio what would you do? Make a bike that strongly appeals to the tiny little market that you currently have fairly well saturated, or go after a somewhat larger market, with a motorcycle with broader appeal?
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Yep, I kinda like it too. I thought this years California was going to be the LAST one? Are we sure the new bike is gonna be called a California?
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Mostly depends on how well this bike works on the roads. And tubeless wheels on a California. :bike
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Let's see, if Honda Runes sit on some showroom floors for 3 or 4+ years, and there are still new left over Guzzi's 3 and 4 years old....Might be able to move 1 every 7 or 8 years.
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more important is how it rides, not what it looks like.
Will it be a heavy pig cruiser or will it handle & ride like a Guzzi?
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I suspect it's actually smaller than most pics make it look and than most here are assuming it's gonna be.
One of the photos taken at that recent dealer meeting had a person standing next to it and unless he was a giant, I'm thinking the size is more a styling and visual impact than reality, but time will tell.
Also, does anyone believe this is the final version (I.E. no passenger seat etc), cause I don't.
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If this turns out to be a nice bike I'm gonna laugh so hard at some of you curmudgeons. :BEER:
I'm with Kev. Personally, I have never met a Guzzi I didn't like! :BEER:
Bruce
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I like it. I can't wait to buy one... a used one. ;) Yes cheap bass turds like me are a problem for Guzzi. But I yam what I yam and that is all that I yam. :D
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Solo seat?
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Solo seat?
My guess, it's a styling exercise and meant to show off the striking new look.
That said it's not without precedence, :models like the Jackal were equipped with a 2-piece seat that could be run solo.
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Not sure I like it, kinda reminds me of that other V twin the Diavol. Sorry about the spelling, Damn it Jim I'm a motorcyclist not a spelling teacher! :D
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Maybe it's just me, but Guzzis don't seem to photograph well, especialy online. They always, even the models I dislike, look better in person. The point is probably moot anyway, because I keep a bike for ten years or so and just bought my 2010 Cal Vin.
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A few things I notice by just looking at the picture. Most Guzzis, even my '98 EV the seat is much higher than the cylinder heads. This is probably the lowest seat height in Guzzi's history. Also, why the cut outs in the tank, the EV is far from the tank. This is probably a lower profile with a wider tank. I know someone who just sold his Bassa for a triumph because the Guzzi was to tall. This is probably a great cruiser for a shorter person. I like it, they just need about 20 more horsepower......... .. :+=copcar
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Mike is at the dealer meeting in Florida.
No word on pricing, or availability.
How many would you like to order?
He's in the bar, so I won't repeat what was said next.
Here it is:
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y114/toddhaven/031212204458.jpg)
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Ballsy. I'd love to see it in person and swing a leg over it.
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Actually one of the better pics I have seen
not my thing but looks pretty good :bike
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Another Cali 1400 thread! Noice!
Sorry, haters. I like it.
:pop
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I wasn't terribly enamored with the looks of the Griso until I saw it in the flesh. I'll withhold judgement..
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If I were to buy a new Guzzi in the next year or two, I would be buying a new V7. Just me. ::)
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Just like Chuck, I'll have to wait and see it in person to make any final judgements......... The Kid
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Can't wait to hear all the straight poop on the model lineup!
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What Kev said. Mike will give us the real details as they were given. I've liked the Cali 1400 since the first picture and they keep getting better.
Very Nice,
Mark
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That seat is all wrong.
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That seat is all wrong.
;-T
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I'll be interested in seeing it in the flesh. Personally, it looks positioned to compete with the Triumph Thunderbird 1600 more than anything else. I'd be interested in seeing some specs too, especially as they relate to the frame dimensions. I hope its a hit for the marque.
Steve
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I like it but looks like another bike I can't ride... you'll need long arms and legs from what I see in the pic. The seat looks like it is off a Sportster. Hope they sell like hotcakes!
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I have learned to trust my butt, not my eyes, when it comes to the seat. ;D Not that the eyes have no input, the ass has veto power.
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"Possible December delivery" to the US, and not far behind European delivery.
Let us pray.
Mike can elaborate further tomorrow.
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I wasn't terribly enamored with the looks of the Griso until I saw it in the flesh. I'll withhold judgement..
When I first was shown a picture of a Centauro, I was the most hideous thing I had ever seen.
Soon I had the picture on my PC as wallpaper.
And soon after, I had to have one.
:BEER:
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I am more interested in what it rides like. does it handle, brake, & have ground clearance?
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It'll be interesting to see it with mirrors, signals and passenger capability. It's definetly got potential ;-T
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She's a big girl that's for sure. ;D
I wonder if she is water cooled?
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It'll be interesting to see it with mirrors, signals and passenger capability. It's definetly got potential ;-T
There seem to be passenger floorboards folded up on both sides (judging from this photo and a right-side picture elsewhere). The seat may be big enough for two Europeans, given the apparent length of the bike. I think the rider has to sit pretty far forward to reach the controls, which makes more room for a passenger. (Note the reach to that brake in front of the rider's floorboard.)
I like the exhausts on both sides, as the Deity intended for all longitudinal V engines.
It's beginning to look like a huge T-3 to me, made for blasting a big transcontinental hole through the atmosphere. The last one that made me feel that way was the Griso, and I bought one. I'm starting to get worried again. Maybe it will just seem too big for me, but the comments of others (KevM?) about the scale not being as big as we think make me wonder.
Keep repeating: It's not aT-3, it's not a T-3, your Griso is fine, your Griso is fine...
Moto
Afterthought: You don't suppose it has LINKED BRAKES?? I'm doomed to buy one if it does.
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That Tail Light! Man! It looks like something they picked up at a truckstop and stuck on the rear fender with some double-stick tape! The V7C tail light assembly would sure fit the style of this bike better.
The shifter looks like it'd be hard to get a toe under, and I don't see a heel lever.
The front fender stay seems to be missing. Shame that. I like a proper fender stay.
The bike is long and low. I'll bet it looks nice in person!
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i am told that the aprilia test riders are amazed at the bikes nimble handling .it looks much better live than the photos seen before
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I hope they sell like crazy (and they spend the profits on building a sportsbike based on the Bellagio) ;D ;D
It will appeal to the US cruiser market but looks like it's been chopped in half down the middle to me. Front half looks good.
Cheers
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i am told that the aprilia test riders are amazed at the bikes nimble handling .it looks much better live than the photos seen before
Well there's the first evidence that much of the hand wringing may be for naught.
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But does it use RBW and have a tri-map option? that would be really interesting!!!!
VDG
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I'm immediately put off by the forward foot controls. ::)
Other than that, I'm not crazy about the "ultra-long and low" looks of it; very cliche for the cruiser market. But I suppose if it sells and helps draw more folks to the marque, it can only help fund better bikes.
I'll reserve my full judgment for when I see one in the flesh and possibly test one out. Until then, though, I can't say looking at the bike gives me any warm and fuzzy feelings. :-\
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Still looks good to me. ;-T The forward controls won't be to everyones taste but I bet the factory will offer other options. Hope it sells by the truck load. ;D
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As Guzzi was able to build the naked Breva 1100, 1200 Sport (appreciably the same bike), the lovely Norge sport tourer, the Griso, and the Stelvio around the same basic CARC powertrain, it'll be interesting to see what other models could potentially evolve based on the Cal 1400.
Bob
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Forwards? - are those REALLY more forward than the current Cali controls? Guess I'll have to see it in person to know.
Did someone say they thought they saw passenger floorboards folded up - I'm not seeing that.
I still think this model is preproduction on some of the styling features (i.e. it's still missing mirrors, and maybe turn signals at least unless the rears are integrated into that awkward tail-light). Even if they are going to sell this with a solo seat, I cannot imagine they wouldn't have an accessory 2-up seat and floorboards (but I'm still thinking it's not going to make it to market without them).
I'm dying to know what details Mike has - but I'm going to go forward with my own predictions based partially on the marketplace and partially on my own desires - let's see how close I get. Anyone else want to make some guesses?
My predictions are:
650 lbs wet (vs. Cal-Vin 616 vs. RK 812)
Length 95" (vs. Cal-Vin 93.7 vs. RK 95)
Wheelbase 63" (vs. Cal-Vin 61.4 vs. RK 63.5)
Seat Height 29" (vs. Cal-Vin 30.7 vs. RK 28)
Ground Clearance 6" (vs. Cal-Vin 7.84 vs. RK 5.1)
Obviously I'm basing my guesses on my assumption (or maybe my hopes) that it's going to be a little bigger than the Cal-Vin, but still smaller and handle better than the RK.
I certainly won't be upset if it's a little taller and shorter in length/wheelbase.
If it comes in at the dimensions I'm predicting (or a little smaller), that would put it ahead of the RK for me in most/all categories.
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I'll bet the factory won't offer other options. They could have done that with any of the previous Tonti based frames but never did. You might get another entirely different model based on this drive train, but not options. The current CARCs are nice bikes. No options for adjusting handlebars on most of them. Some flexibility with adjusting foot controls but again, no options. It just doesn't seem to be Moto Guzzi's thing.
If they make a scrambler version I can see you buying it. :BEER:
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I think it looks pretty over done in the styling dept.... Any word on a V14 Classic, soon to be followed by a V14 Classic Cafe and then limited edition V14 Racer ? ... I still have no idea why they don't offer a simple, retro-standard with a big block motor.
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Does it still have tube rims? Looks like it!!!
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Alloy wheels.
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When my youngest son, who really isn't that into Guzzi's seen it he said, "Damn, I'd buy that." He currently rides a Kawi Vulcan 900 SE. So that tells me they are on the right track to attract the younger generation, and the one's who will BUY new, unlike me in my suspenders and corncob pipe.
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Wow, that thing is ugly. The more photos I see, the more I dislike it. Perhaps it looks better in person...I sure hope it looks A LOT better in person.
Regards,
Gregory Bender
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Looks like in the genetics lab in Mandello they mixed the dna of a Centauro and an EV and this is the result. POWER CRUISER.
I like it.
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Looks like in the genetics lab in Mandello they mixed the dna of a Centauro and an EV and this is the result. POWER CRUISER.
I like it.
:+1 :+1 :+1 I think the Centauro is the sexiest looking Guzzi, and the Eldo the classiest one. I likie the new 1400. Can't wait to buy one. A used well sorted one. ;)
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Does it still have tube rims? Looks like it!!!
Was this an attempt at dry humor?
If not, I'll answer it seriously - no - they are alloy "spoke-lookalike" wheels.
No-one else wants to take a stab at guessing the specs?
I wonder if dealers are being given the specs finally?
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Did someone say they thought they saw passenger floorboards folded up - I'm not seeing that.
Yeh. Moi.
In the photo at the top of this topic, look for the shiny silver-dollar sized thing just aft of the starter motor, in the expanse of dark plastic. That looks like a slider on the leading edge of a footboard, folded up. We'll see.
Moto
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My predictions are:
650 lbs wet (vs. Cal-Vin 616 vs. RK 812)
Length 95" (vs. Cal-Vin 93.7 vs. RK 95)
Wheelbase 63" (vs. Cal-Vin 61.4 vs. RK 63.5)
Seat Height 29" (vs. Cal-Vin 30.7 vs. RK 28)
Ground Clearance 6" (vs. Cal-Vin 7.84 vs. RK 5.1)
I think that's the ballpark, but I think the seat is lower.
My prediction:
weight: 600 pounds
wheelbase: 64-inches
seat height: 27-inches
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Yeh. Moi.
In the photo at the top of this topic, look for the shiny silver-dollar sized thing just aft of the starter motor, in the expanse of dark plastic. That looks like a slider on the leading edge of a footboard, folded up. We'll see.
Moto
NOPE - I could be wrong, but I really don't think so. I blew that shot up and lightened it and I don't think it is.
First the dimensions are off - ever see a bike where the passenger floorboards are bigger than the rider boards?
Then if you look really closely at some other high res pics of this bike that have been posted in the past you'll see a Guzzi decal on that piece - if that was a floorboard the decal would face the ground when it was flipped down and I doubt they're gonna put one in that position.
Speaking of that - the surface is also way too "finished" to be facing downward.
Also, in pics that show the other side it appears as if that remote reservoir for the shock is actually mounted on that suface, or really close to it (speaking of, that's something I don't expect to make it into the production model, those reservoirs, but who knows).
My guess is the piece in question is actually some form of sidecover that is hiding the front of the swingarm.
OK, I found and blew up some better resolution shots of that - though I'll admit it almost looks like part of it might fold out from underneat, but then it would be too thin... but what you thought was a slider, no I don't think that part pivots.
(http://s13.postimage.org/5wubhinir/Sidecover.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5wubhinir/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/fnlo7mht3/Sidecover2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fnlo7mht3/)
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Not sure about the specs, but definitely heavier, longer, and lower. The floorboards and controls are definitely several inches further forward than the present California EV. The shifter is beyond the front of the cylinder head, overlapping the exhaust headers. The floorboard is almost directly under the cylinder head. The front of my floorboard is near the middle of the cylinder. Makes sense if they are going to lower the saddle, they will have to stretch the seat to foot control distance to get decent lean angles.
I still like it, but it all depends on how it fits me as to whether one is in my future.
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(http://s15.postimage.org/fnlo7mht3/Sidecover2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fnlo7mht3/)
It's just the over engineered muffler hanger. The silver thingy is just the cover over the swingarm pivot.
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Rocker - yeah, maybe I'm letting my "hopes" cloud my guesstimate.
and you really think it's the hanger itself and not just a trim piece to hide the muffler hanger?
Gary - good point on the position of the floorboard relative to the jugs, I hadn't compared the Tonti Cali to that yet but I see what you mean now.
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Rocker - yeah, maybe I'm letting my "hopes" cloud my guesstimate.
and you really think it's the hanger itself and not just a trim piece to hide the muffler hanger?
The pictures are always at angles. I've been trying to take measurements and make estimates, but I'm probably off.
That could well be a trim piece, but it looks like part of the frame to me. I hope it's a cover though, as far as costs of fixing/replacement go.
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i am told that the aprilia test riders are amazed at the bikes nimble handling .it looks much better live than the photos seen before
:drool
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I guess my biggest question at this point is wheter, or not, we'll get to see a Cal 14 at the MGNOC national in June.
Would be nice to see, even if it's on static display with the demo fleet.
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There's a demo fleet again? ??? :o
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There's a demo fleet again? ??? :o
Again?
Well, at Elkader last year, I rode the V7 Classic and Stelvio.
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Again?
Well, at Elkader last year, I rode the V7 Classic and Stelvio.
Norge at Elkader and 8v Grisso & CalVin at Salida (in the rain)
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I'd like to see it "up close and in person". At this point, pictures are better than nothing but I can't get a good sense of it's true length vs what I'm seeing in the pictures. The seat does look too small for a large bike but who knows if this will be the final version? I'm glad to see that they have cast wheels since I'm not a fan of spoke wheels. Hopefully, we'll see a production version soon.
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It's just the over engineered muffler hanger. The silver thingy is just the cover over the swingarm pivot.
Looking at your fine enlargement, I think you're probably right.
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I'll bet the factory won't offer other options. They could have done that with any of the previous Tonti based frames but never did. You might get another entirely different model based on this drive train, but not options. The current CARCs are nice bikes. No options for adjusting handlebars on most of them. Some flexibility with adjusting foot controls but again, no options. It just doesn't seem to be Moto Guzzi's thing.
I can't see the footboards staying that far forward on the European version. Footboards yes but the riding position appears to be a little too stateside for tastes this side of the pond. ;D Also didn't Guzzi offer footboards as an option on Jackal & Stone models over here, where they came standard with foot pegs?
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Just saw this on Max's twitter feed:
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/Collectorsfriend/1bc9be2f.jpg)
The pic:
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/Collectorsfriend/2ee07511.jpg)
:bike
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Round instrument nacelle looks a little too big for the bike.
What's with the super-ugly headlight? :'(
It looks like one of the alien probes in the original "War of the Worlds"! :(
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m5/Amboman4/MaxwithCal1400.jpg)
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they used a bed pan for the HL? or is it a sink from a dentists office?
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Like it or not, it's that sort of tweet probably makes sales -- or, at least, ups brand awareness -- happen these days.
Doesn't work on me, but that's irrelevant. Heck, I do not even know who Max Biaggi is, and I am not going to look him up. :D
Bill
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BINGO - Max Biaggi is only 170cm (5'6") tall!
Now we have a better frame of reference for bike size.
So it suddenly seems like less of a monster no?
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they used a bed pan for the HL? or is it a sink from a dentists office?
Actually, you know it does look like that light on the parallelogram they swing around at the dentist office!
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See the Max Biaggi thread for a photo and frame of reference:
BINGO - Max Biaggi is only 170cm (5'6") tall!
Now we have a better frame of reference for bike size.
So it suddenly seems like less of a monster no?
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The more I see it the more I like it. I hope it comes with ABS.
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Finally, a human on the prototype! And, a small-framed one, at that.
Those floorboards don't look forward, anymore.
That gas tank doesn't look massive, anymore.
The bike doesn't look as long and low, anymore.
Very encouraging that Max Biaggi can flat-foot the bike.
I like the headlight. I like everything about it.
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Bill... Max is the current World Super Bike Champion running on an Aprilia bike..
This is really superb marketing on Piaggio's part. I know personally many people jumped on Ducati when Troy was Champion! Max has a HUGE following around the world. He is from Rome, and is the "local" hero favorite of all the WSBK Italy followers.
We'll see how he does this year, but the first year the Aprilia was in SBK it was a contender, not like the 4 years of BMW's with nothing to show. The technology is great, but MAX is a VERY FAST rider. He was always a problem for Troy... As soon as Troy retired Max became the heir!
If he likes it! ... then it will really help the brand!
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BTW.. .AMA SBK is like watching AAA baseball.. .Close but not "the show"..... SBK is "the show".... (well ok MotoGP may also be the show... American and National leagues!)
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See the Max Biaggi thread for a photo and frame of reference:
BINGO - Max Biaggi is only 170cm (5'6") tall!
Now we have a better frame of reference for bike size.
So it suddenly seems like less of a monster no?
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=52596.0
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Bill... Max is the current World Super Bike Champion running on an Aprilia bike..
This is really superb marketing on Piaggio's part. I know personally many people jumped on Ducati when Troy was Champion! Max has a HUGE following around the world. He is from Rome, and is the "local" hero favorite of all the WSBK Italy followers.
We'll see how he does this year, but the first year the Aprilia was in SBK it was a contender, not like the 4 years of BMW's with nothing to show. The technology is great, but MAX is a VERY FAST rider. He was always a problem for Troy... As soon as Troy retired Max became the heir!
If he likes it! ... then it will really help the brand!
He is the 2010 WSBK champion, current one is Carlos Checa on a Ducati...but he wants to become the current one again this year.
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OOOOPS
CALIMERO... you are so right.. I am a year behind... In fact Checa won it on one of the 'old' Ducati bikes from the Haga/Fabritzio Factory Team..
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Interesting the head lamp is Hi, Low and Turn signals in one fixture... No "turn signal" stem lights... Cleaned up the front nicely
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BINGO - Max Biaggi is only 170cm (5'6") tall!
Now we have a better frame of reference for bike size.
So it suddenly seems like less of a monster no?
That picture helps immensely! Given that you know his height, it puts the size in perspective. I just had a feeling that the pictures made it look much larger than it is.
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The more I see it the more I like it. I hope it comes with ABS.
The more I see it the more I hate it. The size of those jugs might be nice in cold weather, but in hot weather ? :D I'm not interested in 1 anyway.
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Interesting the head lamp is Hi, Low and Turn signals in one fixture... No "turn signal" stem lights... Cleaned up the front nicely
And won't be US leagal, because there is some stupid DOT rule about
turn signals being X inches apart. Witness the Stelvio turn signal debacle.
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It could be a weird multi-lensed LED headlight.... I wonder what the charging system output is?
I hope they do a long fendered version....
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The instrument cluster has a vague resemblance to the huge monstrosity of the Ambo, but much more 21century. If Max can flat foot it any plus 5' american will get buy!
If done right, and as far as I can see it's looking good, Guzzi will have a substantial hit on its hands with the new Cal.
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If he likes it! ... then it will really help the brand!
What else is Max going to say? If he said "it's a steaming turd" his bosses wouldn't be too happy, he could think that and say just the opposite though... ;)
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The instrument cluster has a vague resemblance to the huge monstrosity of the Ambo, but much more 21century. If Max can flat foot it any plus 5' american will get buy!
If done right, and as far as I can see it's looking good, Guzzi will have a substantial hit on its hands with the new Cal.
"Huge monstrosity of the Ambo"? Surely you jest. No resemblence at all. ::) Looks more like a shiny version of the Cal II pod.
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Look, Guzzi are just doing what they have done for ages.
Build us a bike with a few details not to our liking so a. we get to fiddle with it b. make/buy some new bits to customize it!
There's a market for a traditional headlight kit right there, plus indicator mounting kit....jobs for everyone ;D
Plus owner involvement.....
Kev.
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Finally something with out those stupid up-swept pipes.
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it's growing on me....not sure of headlight tho
go Max go !
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Actually, you know it does look like that light on the parallelogram they swing around at the dentist office!
LOL!
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What else is Max going to say? If he said "it's a steaming turd" his bosses wouldn't be too happy, he could think that and say just the opposite though... ;)
he could say nothing...
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he could say nothing...
or, may be, he likes it ;-T
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Fuel capacity for a bike that will average 35MPG should be over 5 US gallons usable.
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Fuel capacity for a bike that will average 35MPG should be over 5 US gallons usable.
Are you assuming it will only get that mpg and not have that capacity?
If so, why?
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I'd like to "beat up" on one if they have it with the demo fleet. The demo fleet got resurrected since the bike "swim" in MN. Missed thrashing on them in Malibu. ;-T That thing reminds me of the Centauro. It also reminds me of "squeal like a pig" while you pat the rear fender. ;D ;D ;D
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he could say nothing...
He didn't take the pic of himself sitting on the bike. He probably didn't tweet about it, either.
He has people for that... ;)
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I still think it looks good but I'm not sure about the alien headlamp. I am sure it would be pretty easy to change though.
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Now under the sun.
(http://static.blogo.it/motoblog/moto-guzzi-california-1400-a-miami/1Guzzi_California_1400_1.jpg)
(http://static.blogo.it/motoblog/moto-guzzi-california-1400-a-miami/2Guzzi_California_1400_2.jpg)
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(http://static.blogo.it/motoblog/moto-guzzi-california-1400-a-miami/2Guzzi_California_1400_2.jpg)
NICE - another picture with better perspective! (Not to mention much better lighting). ;-T
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Are you assuming it will only get that mpg and not have that capacity?
If so, why?
Current Norge owners claiming 35MPG. And no information on fuel capacity available yet.
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Riding position appears to be a lot like the Harley V-Rod. For a person like me; folded Taco position. :P
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Now under the sun.
(http://static.blogo.it/motoblog/moto-guzzi-california-1400-a-miami/2Guzzi_California_1400_2.jpg)
Solo seat?
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Riding position appears to be a lot like the Harley V-Rod. For a person like me; folded Taco position. :P
I'm not quite sure. From the photo of Max Biaggi straddling the bike, the riding position looks more relaxed. (I'd call it "neutral.")
What I'd really like to see is a photo of someone SITTING on it. Couldn't one of those corporate "suits" be persuaded to strike a riding pose for the camera?
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The cans don't look all handsome to me either but with the new EU standards I think that volume is the natural outcome so the designers are not to be blamed all that much. There are a couple other details, pretty subjective, that don't strike me as fitting the overall package. That said, it is certainly much better looking in these shots than previous photos.
But don't hold your breath for a Scrambler version. :winer
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Mike is at the dealer meeting in Florida.
No word on pricing, or availability.
How many would you like to order?
He's in the bar, so I won't repeat what was said next.
Is the white dual seat coming too?
(http://s17.postimage.org/eo0xfya4r/moto_guzzi_california_1400e_v7_scrambler_concept_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/eo0xfya4r/)
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But don't hold your breath for a Scrambler version. :winer
At 1400cc, it would be a "scrambler" without the "scr."
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Now under the sun.
(http://static.blogo.it/motoblog/moto-guzzi-california-1400-a-miami/1Guzzi_California_1400_1.jpg)
(http://static.blogo.it/motoblog/moto-guzzi-california-1400-a-miami/2Guzzi_California_1400_2.jpg)
From the front of the seat forward works for me, Does not in the opposite direction, Seat is wrong , Ditto on the large side panel, fender and the exhaust can as well.
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Engine is finned but that big fluid to air exchanger begs the question and also is it a OHC or push rod?
The finns look more supplemental than functional on the heads.
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Riding position - I certainly hope it's not taco-like - and I'm cautiously optimistic from the pic with Max Biaggi standing it up. But we'll see.
Current Norge owners claiming 35MPG.
Meaning the 8V guys?
Are we thinking it's going to be tuned similar to that?
Engine is finned but that big fluid to air exchanger begs the question and also is it a OHC or push rod?
Have these questions not been answered on the board before.
Again - Air/Oil cooled.
4V/head - I BELIEVE like the other current Guzzi 4V/head motors.
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What else is Max going to say? If he said "it's a steaming turd" his bosses wouldn't be too happy, he could think that and say just the opposite though... ;)
Don't trust the evaluations done by magazines that take advertising $$ nor from folks who have a vested interest in the product they speak of.
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I'm glad they went with the natural color for the engine case and transmission case. Really tiered of those being black. Not sure if that head light will make the production version or not. But I like it just the same.
Make mine in white with the dual seat please,
Mark
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it looks like a "bad boy". It needs to ride, feel, brake, handle, and have ground clearance like a Guzzi- not a cruiser and certainly not a "feet first" v-rod.
I wanna ride it like Max.
:bike
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I'm glad they went with the natural color for the engine case and transmission case. Really tiered of those being black.
HONESTLY - that could be a deal breaker for me - i.e. I HATE bikes with light colored engine cases (grease and oil spots, as well as tar and road grime) show too much.
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I really don't like the "GINORMOUS" mufflers but seeing people standing next to it gives me a much better perspective of the overall size and height of the the new California......... ..and I like it much more than I did when I saw the pictures from the European motorcycle show. Overall, my opinion is that it's not a bad looking Guzzi.
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Max must need a replacement for his barcalounger!
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the brake pedal looks to be fore of the cylinder. On my '98 EV it is closer to the rearward edge of the cylinder.
I like the overall looks of the bike, however it seems like business as usual will need to be changed. For example, will black plastic sidebags (HB, Givi, etc) cut it, or should they match the fit and finish of the entire bike?
this bike looks much "higher end" than previous Cali's, less "industrial", and I would guess that new customers to the fold may be more sensitive to form over function.
Look forward to seeing one in the flesh :bike
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BTW, I really like the wheels!
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More pictures are out.
http://s2.visordown.com/uploads/images/large/46408.jpg
http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/moto-guzzi-california-in-miami/20288.html
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Wire wheel look with tubeless advantages. ;-T Still a pain to keep clean. ;D Add more padding to the solo seat and a Vetter. ;D Has the Loop look on the front-end.
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Bet it weighs at least 700#. MG calls it a cruiser. Where's the centerstand ? :D
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I still think the stick-on tail lights look bad. Just plain bad.
I'd much rather have the attractive unit from a V7C.
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Did anybody else notice the ABS ring on the rotor? I'm glad they are expanding their offerings of ABS. Since my crash I've really thought about my next bike having ABS... but as of now the US only gets the Norge and Stelvio with that option.
If the Griso or this new California, or even the V7C is available in the US with ABS I may just have to get a new Guzzi. ;D
Oh, and I love the wheels on forks with loop style covers on this bike. The things I don't like are the headlight, side covers, and taillight.
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I wonder if we will be in for some surprises when Mike or Todd Haven finally posts "the real skinny?" From the discussion above, and suspicions driven from "other sources," I wonder if this is the EU-oriented scooter we are seeing in the photos; I wonder, too, if the North American version will have "other" features/amenities to make the 1400 platform "fit" N.A. standards and consumers?
Yes, the chrome "blunderbusses" for mufflers are a bit off-putting. I could live with the rear tail lights, but thay are going to have to put turn signals "somewhere" outside the main axis of the bike to fit DOT standards(?). The solo seat won't work for me. The headlight...well... ::) And I'll hold judgement until I see the instrument pod.
Now, the things I'm really excited about - The seat height!!! Let's hear it for Moto Guzzi listening to customers! Hip - hip - hooray!
Yes, we are all going to have to twiddle our thumbs until the first of next year before we have the chance to see the 1400 "in the flesh." In the meantime, I'm saving my coins.
Bravo, Moto Guzzi!
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hey folks..
You are looking at a prototype / first build / Show bike... Not due for delivery until NEXT FALL... Much will change, including EPA, DOT, etc etc.
Yes it's probably going to be released in Europe first. Why is it in the US.. To judge whether the dealers think it is sellable.
BTW, they also brought a 950cc Vespa Scooter and the new Aprilia Capa Norde for dealers to review. Remember it's a PIAGGIO meeting NOT a Moto Guzzi meeting!
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hey folks..
You are looking at a prototype / first build / Show bike... Not due for delivery until NEXT FALL... Much will change, including EPA, DOT, etc etc.
Yes it's probably going to be released in Europe first. Why is it in the US.. To judge whether the dealers think it is sellable.
BTW, they also brought a 950cc Vespa Scooter and the new Aprilia Capa Norde for dealers to review. Remember it's a PIAGGIO meeting NOT a Moto Guzzi meeting!
Uh... I guess you missed this from Todd Haven:
"Possible December delivery" to the US, and not far behind European delivery.
Let us pray.
Mike can elaborate further tomorrow.
Sounds like he means this December to me so it's way past the "show bike" stage and is likely almost to the pre-production prototype stage.
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I like it.
Not crazy about the blooie pipes but that can be dealt with.
:+1
T
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hey folks..
.
BTW, they also brought a 950cc Vespa Scooter
That I'm interested in. :o Right now Vespa's biggest scooter is 300cc. This will be the largest scooter yet, if it's true. :-\
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BTW, they also brought a 950cc Vespa Scooter and the new Aprilia Capa Norde for dealers to review. Remember it's a PIAGGIO meeting NOT a Moto Guzzi meeting!
[/quote]
Do you know where I can see a pic of the coming Vespa 950? ;)
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As others have already observed, things often look better in person than what we see in pictures. Sometimes the other way around I know, but I'll reserve judgment until I can touch one. I agree about the mufflers, a bit gaudy for my taste. What I would like to see is one decked out for travelling, with bags and a windshield. No doubt that would change the look entirely.
Now for the speculation part. How much fuel does it carry? Is the tank metal or plastic?
Zoom Zoom,
John Henry
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I DO like it and would love to ride it.
However,
It looks like another marketing driven sceme to build large and low. Wait, ........that's fine!
But really, I had the Quota out today for the first time in a month...........tha t little thousand runs just fine....LOL........ .
I would still love to ride a fourteen hundred version... ~;
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It looks better in white. I think a really dark blue would make the bike look sharp.
What will never look good is the friggin' remote resevoir bolted to a horizontal surface with a dangly, goddamned tube running to the shock. Why is the resevoir not on the shock? Some asshole spent hundreds or even thousands of hours over-designing that headlight and then a pimply faced 12 year old stuffed the remote resevoir onto the bike with a piece of bubble gum and ran the straw from his sippy-cup between the shock and resevoir.
Whoever is responsible for the shock should be slapped. Other than that, I think it's over 700lbs. The engine alone looks like it weighs 350lbs.
I dont care what it weighs though, after putting a round headlight and a set of decent shocks on the bike....I'd ride the wheels off it.
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I didn't like the Griso 8v muffler in pictures or at first. After seeing it on the bike and listening to it, I have no plan to change it.
Mark
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(http://blog.motorcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/031412-2012-piaggio-usa-moto-guzzi-california-1400.jpg)
(http://blog.motorcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/031412-2012-moto-guzzi-california-1400.jpg)
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Wheel base looks to be about 6 Italians.
Total length 8 of same.
Seriously, that last picture has me thinking I LIKE :drool
And JohninVT...you nailed it on the shock....hideous!
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Cool tank badges. Generating a lot of buzz (at least here) so this is probably a good thing.
I bet you could tour on it too. :beat_horse
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Any speculation on MSRP?
15K?
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Uh... I guess you missed this from Todd Haven:
"Possible December delivery" to the US, and not far behind European delivery.
Let us pray.
Mike can elaborate further tomorrow.
Sounds like he means this December to me so it's way past the "show bike" stage and is likely almost to the pre-production prototype stage.
UM.... Ok I mean Next winter.... That would be December 2012... We picking on 90 days??
There's much to do between now and then to get past EPA and DOT... New engine has to be certified... That is not a trivial process... and not cheap!
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(http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/2853/california1400withoutbl.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/california1400withoutbl.jpg/)
now THAT'S Italian!!!!
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I love it and it looks like ABS is a reality.
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When my youngest son, who really isn't that into Guzzi's seen it he said, "Damn, I'd buy that." He currently rides a Kawi Vulcan 900 SE. So that tells me they are on the right track to attract the younger generation, and the one's who will BUY new, unlike me in my suspenders and corncob pipe.
That may be the first time I ever read someone equate cruisers with the "younger generation."
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That may be the first time I ever read someone equate cruisers with the "younger generation."
Don't be too surprised, Harley's Dark Customs like the Nightster seem to appeal largely to 20-somethings.
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I could live with the rear tail lights, but thay are going to have to put turn signals "somewhere" outside the main axis of the bike to fit DOT standards(?).
Vrod muscle does not have rear tail lights outside the axis of the bike. Everything is under the rear fender. I could see the directionals being integrated into those huge vertical tail lights. Front ones look to be LED and flanking the headlight, probably too small for DOT, if those are actually the signals.
(http://s17.postimage.org/42dpdpzh7/attachment.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/42dpdpzh7/)
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Don't be too surprised, Harley's Dark Customs like the Nightster seem to appeal largely to 20-somethings.
I agree but its not generally part of internet conventional wisdom.
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I am thinking that once a person feels the amount of torque a 1400cc 8V motor makes they might forget all about pudgie exhaust pipes.
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LOL who said there's anything conventional about Guzzi owners.
Good point on tail light assembly, I was thinking the same.
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http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/03/here-come-the-italians-piaggo-to-open-design-center-in-pasadena-ca/
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Not for nuthin, I'll pass
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(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2853/california1400withoutbl.jpg)
AAAH! The much-anticipated "Red Suspenders" Edition!!
Meanwhile... somewhere in California, Miguel Galluzzi is crying....
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d00d! That's hilarious! ;D
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That last one is hilarious. The worst part is that I laughed at it...then I thought, "Hey, that doesn't look half bad!". I must have hit my head on something this morning.
Seriously though...removing the resevoir made it look about 7 million percent better.
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There's an unfamiliar device on the right side of the engine block, below the front half of the cylinder. Oil line?
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http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/03/here-come-the-italians-piaggo-to-open-design-center-in-pasadena-ca/
That 1400 looks like a freight train in front of those guys!! :-\
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Good one, but where's the corncob pipe?
;D
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There's an unfamiliar device on the right side of the engine block, below the front half of the cylinder. Oil line?
Yes. It's the supply line for the oil cooler on the low pressure cooling circuit. The engine is essentially an over-bored version of the current donk, oil cooled with air assist. Heads are twin plugged to help prevent surging, rocker cover have cosmetic covers over them to hide the HT leads and caps. On the Dorsoduro 1200 the second plug only fires at lower RPM.
Earlier pic of the motor cut-away showed what looked like roller tappets but who knows what we'll find in there when they start delivering them? Also those pics showed what looked like a RBW throttle body and that really interests me. If it use the same ECU as the big 'Prillas we could get tri-mapping sellection, launch control and all the good stuff! If the bottom gear ratios are low enough it'll likely need it if the build a set of cams and maps to suit!
VDG
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I like the loop frame -like fork shrouds. Floorboards need to be moved back 8 to 12 inches. Put an automatic in it. Bars up 3" and back 4". No biggie. Better yet, send one each to Greg Field, Rodekyll, Greg Bender, FotoGuzzi They'll fix it. :bike But wait, that many bikes would equal 1/2 of their first year total US sales number ~;
Shorty, I think you're a bit optistic regarding sales. I'll bet some of those guys are typical Guzzi tight wads like that bunch down in Oklahoma.
I am hoping the foot controls aren't cruiser forward, afterall you gotta git cher knees undur those sylunders
;D
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Another pic, for the proportions.
(http://put.edidomus.it/dueruote/news/foto/376853_9541_big_GALLUZZI%20COLANINNO%20STERPONE%20LAMBRI_MG_21.jpg)
DogW
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Sharkskin suit, crooked nose, Italian............ .could you make it any more stereotypical? "Psst.....'ey buddy. Wanna deal on a new bike???"" ;D
Looks like an intro to the public ala Triumph's Rocket III. Plain Jane first then the touring model the next year.
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Any of you notice that the 2nd guy from the right in the group photo....looks like the "idiot" cousin. ;D
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no, I am not looking at people like that. :)
he is probably just having a good time, what do you care about stuff like that ?
go into the shed and push them bikes around, I wanna see another V7 sport pic.
;-T
Why do you care about what I care about??? ;D As for the pix. Hang in there I'll be taking them soon. No shed. The garage is the bottom floor of the house. :P
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I must admit that I like it more the more I see it, especially now that I've seen it in direct sunlight and can get a better idea of proportions.
There are obviously a number of styling cues that I don't personally care for (tail-light, silver wheels/motor, funky headlight shape, tiny turn signals on the front) but those are details.
Still can't wait to get actual production specs and production pics though to see if any of that changes and what the details are like.
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;D
mmh, Hawaii - Islands of my dreams, I feel a little sad still, that I didn't make
it over there in my youth and young adultship, while I was thinking and doing
not much else but windsurfing.
anyway, if I am ever going to make it over there, I'll help you to push them around.
;-T :BEER:
After pushing them around. You'd have to take a ride on one. ;D
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Hhmmm...how long before Givi has a set to mount luggage?
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Vetter mounts too??
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Next to the auxiliary deer whistle mount.
Need room for the sidecar mounts too! ;D
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This thing is growing on me more with each new picture. The seat needs to be longer but I can live with the taillight setup. The mufflers are way ugly but that is an easy aftermarket fix. Now will someone with serious photoshopping skills put together a non-sterotypical image that shows a modern windshield/fairing setup (EV Cupolino maybe), Mistrals/bubs or even fishtails and some appropriate bags in a matching color or Guzzu leather bags so that we could look without spraying the keyboard with the afternoon coffee? OK, you can leave in the guy with the red suspenders.
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A aftermarket seat that is like the old bench style seats. Add more foam to the solo saddle with an extention for a passenger that way the rider could slide back for more leg room. Fix that and the bike would definitely be a big seller. 8)
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I got a feeling it might smoke competing Road Kings and the like!
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Muschi, try something like this
(http://s13.postimage.org/7b9nq5cqr/006_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7b9nq5cqr/)
or this
(http://s15.postimage.org/wak1reymv/025_22a.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wak1reymv/)
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It looks like a 1971 Bates fairing to me. Had one on my 1971 Honda CB-450. Way to go, Guzzi. Retro is in!
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MG should retire the "California" moniker and call this the "Conestoga".
(+1) - That's too funny! ;D :D ;)
I will reserve further comments until I actually see one in person, but I still think it looks like a cross between a "Sausage-Bike" and a stretched Ducati Diavel! :o :o ::) ::) ;D ;D :D :D ;) ;) :)
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Say what you will but the Diavel is selling well. Who knew? :)
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NOPE - I could be wrong, but I really don't think so. I blew that shot up and lightened it and I don't think it is.
First the dimensions are off - ever see a bike where the passenger floorboards are bigger than the rider boards?
Then if you look really closely at some other high res pics of this bike that have been posted in the past you'll see a Guzzi decal on that piece - if that was a floorboard the decal would face the ground when it was flipped down and I doubt they're gonna put one in that position.
Speaking of that - the surface is also way too "finished" to be facing downward.
Also, in pics that show the other side it appears as if that remote reservoir for the shock is actually mounted on that suface, or really close to it (speaking of, that's something I don't expect to make it into the production model, those reservoirs, but who knows).
My guess is the piece in question is actually some form of sidecover that is hiding the front of the swingarm.
OK, I found and blew up some better resolution shots of that - though I'll admit it almost looks like part of it might fold out from underneat, but then it would be too thin... but what you thought was a slider, no I don't think that part pivots.
(http://s13.postimage.org/5wubhinir/Sidecover.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5wubhinir/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/fnlo7mht3/Sidecover2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fnlo7mht3/)
The piece with the MG decal looks almost exactly like the fold out passenger pegs on my Vespa GT200. Dropped the Vespa off for it's 6k service yesterday or else I'd take a pic and show you how similar they look close up. They fold directly out like wings, not up or down. Pure speculation but I would almost guarantee you that's what those are.
In terms of the bike iteself, I'd be surprised if it was less than 700lbs. They've added motor and length to the original Cali that, while light in the cruiser market, was close to 600lbs already. I have a hard time believing they could add all that beef I'm seeing here and still have it clock in at under 700. But who knows, really. Lots of speculation in these parts and that's my speculatin' :) Even still, I'm liking the bike more and more with the real world pics. Still lots of little nits to pick with it but I could easily see these fading as well upon seeing the real thing.
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Pregnant Shrimp II
;D ;D ;D
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BP, but we don't know how much length or mass they've actually added and how much is a visual impact from the styling. Remember the most recent pics with people in them are showing it's not as big as was first assumed.
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Can't Mike from MPH fill us in with at least some aprox specs? Surely he was told some basics, or Mike are you under embargo from Piaggio?
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I'm assuming some sort of embargo still. :(
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Pregnant Shrimp II
;D ;D ;D
The best description yet! (LMAO!) ;D ;D :D :D ;) :) ;-T
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I agree, it looks pretty good from this angle (in my limited experience this usually is not a flattering angle for bikes - or some riders.........) :)
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Just my two cents on this topic.
How many times has this scenario played out????????
Fantastic new model, See the demo we have here, They could be available by (spring-summer-fall-next year???)
It is all the hot button issue but never shows up until two or three years later, All interested folks are by then tired of looking at pictures, hearing rumors, placing orders, getting stalled and stalled and then there is something else new on the horizon.
Sound familiar?? I can remember this with numerous things like the Centauro, the V11 sport and others.
There is a reason that we were not allowed within 10 feet of this bike and that is because it is only a mockup of a bike. A good part of it is probably wood and nothing more than a model shop exercise.
They do this to gauge the reaction, count the ooooh's and aaaah's and the level of interest so they can go back and see if they think it will sell.
My advice is to not get all enthused about being the first kid on the block with one cause it will be a long time coming if ever.
I'll shut up now
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Mike, were you at the Miami dealer meeting? Just curious.
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what looked fake to me already before Mike spoke up, has been the position of the foot brake pedal.
there is actually no space to travel for said pedal, that seems not to work.
:BEER:
Same for the shifter.
Yeah, it's a preproduction mockup showbike.
I thought we all knew that?
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So, you're sayin' we can't tour on it? ~;
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BP, but we don't know how much length or mass they've actually added and how much is a visual impact from the styling. Remember the most recent pics with people in them are showing it's not as big as was first assumed.
True, but I know it's longer than 8 guys standing side by side ;D :D :)
Seriously, Kev, you could well be right. I'm just saying I'd be surprised if it is less than 700. Not a deal breaker for me but since I've ridden bikes over 700lbs that handled better than some at 500, so there you go.
The potential new model is big news, certainly, and I actually think the push MG seems to be getting now from Piaggio is like nothing I recall in my last 7 years or so. New office in Cali, eh? Nice, and this is nothing new here but maybe since they deem it worth a new Stateside office, how about a new Stateside push to establish a real and really supported dealer network?
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Mike? With respect you could say the same of the Griso.
1100's are now much sought after. 1200's, at least in the USA, seem to be dashing out the door in the USA. Sure there was a bit of a wait and it took until the SE was released for them to get a model on the floor that ticked all the boxes for the people who wanted a Griso, (The wire wheels were the deal breaker I guess.) but its now a success.
The latest Norges and Stelvios are really 'World Class' vehicles. No excuses, they can hold their heads up in ANY comparable company! Really.
The Nuovo Cali may well still be in development but the fact that is sparking so much interest on Wildguzzi shows that its target market is waiting with ears pricked. It does nothing for me as I'm not a cruiser guy but it look like it is going to have a lot of new tech along with the traditional quirky aproach to problems that Guzzi has always had. I mean? Who would dream of still using side-draft heads on a Hi-Cam motor in 2012?
It's huge! It's bonkers! I hope they sell them by the boatload!!!!! Wonder if I can slip the 1400 barrels on the Griso? Might need bigger TB's. Hmmmm. The ones off an MGS-01 would do the job....... ;D ;D ;D
VDG
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Now that the subject has been broached. Would be cool if the top-end could be put on some of the later bikes. ;-T
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Mike, were you at the Miami dealer meeting? Just curious.
Yes Curtis and I both were there.
Moto Guzzi was afforded a whole hour out of the meeting. The rest of the meeting was scooters and Aprilia.
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Yes Curtis and I both were there.
Moto Guzzi was afforded a whole hour out of the meeting. The rest of the meeting was scooters and Aprilia.
Thanks.
Is there anything else you are allowed to share about this (or about the upcoming updated V7)?
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If you are referring too the metal tank model I think they are already coming in. Martha Lewis in FT Worth already has one in inventory but it may only be the Racer model that she has. The racer they had in Miami had a steel tank
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If you are referring too the metal tank model I think they are already coming in. Martha Lewis in FT Worth already has one in inventory but it may only be the Racer model that she has. The racer they had in Miami had a steel tank
No, actually I'm looking for any more solid information on future availability for the new Basic model with cast wheels and single throttle body.
I'm also interested in finding out how similar (same) the chassis is for accessory purchases.
I'm planning on buying a new V7 basic - and probably one or two wind screens, some HB racks, HB crash bars, possibly Euro sidestand, and sump spacer etc.
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Carl, I'm cautiously optimistic.
Meanwhile, a Piaggio/Guzzi Rep called me back today with regards to my V7 email inquiry.
Kudos for caring, though he had no additional info on V7 availability and quoted the company line of 4th quarter.
I appreciated the effort nonetheless.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou2uhvBsMgI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3hs90bJ1P8&feature=player_embedded
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yCQrkjmeeUc/T2iexJqSAiI/AAAAAAAADKM/Ta9yV0iJ4y0/s800/1.jpg)
Three versions, that shown is the sportier one.
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Dogwalker,
Thanks for the video links.
;-T
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Thanks for the vids. ;-T Explains what the Plan A is. Touring model on it's way.
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Can't Mike from MPH fill us in with at least some aprox specs? Surely he was told some basics, or Mike are you under embargo from Piaggio?
There were no specs given at all. Just a look at it, it was on the stage and we were NOT invited up to look any closer. There was no mention of the updated smallblocks either. Although I did see and learn more about them in Italy last year, you guys have already deduced most of the facts. As Mike Harper said, they dont make much time at these for us lowly Guzzi dealers, and they sure dont care to let the dealers in on whats coming down the road. Case in point, the new Stelvio offers a traction control system standard. Me being the curious type, I wanted to know how it works, throttle shutter, timing retard, RBW, ABS,? No one seemed to know which type of control it has. Or seemed interested enough to care.
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There were no specs given at all.... [T]hey dont make much time at these for us lowly Guzzi dealers, and they sure dont care to let the dealers in on whats coming down the road. Case in point, the new Stelvio offers a traction control system standard.... No one seemed to know which type of control it has. Or seemed interested enough to care.
That's disappointing. If THEY don't care, why should their potential customers?
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I think the video is WAY EXCITING. It is stated that a touring version of the California will be first out of the chute, in the fall. This can only be some kind of "bagger" I think: basic windshield and saddlebags, rather than a full-boat tourer like a Norge.
In fact, I wonder if Muschi's Photoshop specials might not be up the design wall right now in Pasadena!
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:) :) :)
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I've no background re: dealing with MG from a dealer / business perspective, however I find this video very promising.
First of all, I really like the bike!
Secondly, I like the philosophy of how the bike was designed; around the engine, emphasis on the rider experience and the importance of keeping it Italian.
Third, I am encouraged to hear them speak about how they view the future.
Look forward to this fall!
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Joe - agreed on all counts.
I like how they recognized the defining qualities of Guzzi, including engine design, torque and handling.
This again suggests that this will be a true descendant of the current Cali.
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I like that bike. Now if i ever get one it needs to come with the leather sports jacket that the guy on the left was sporting ;D
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Hello;
If you listen carefully to the language they used, they are telling us that the bike in the Video is a 'mock up' and that the design center will "finish" the design work over the coming months. So until we see the real bike, speculation is fun, but we can only guess.
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Hello;
If you listen carefully to the language they used, they are telling us that the bike in the Video is a 'mock up' and that the design center will "finish" the design work over the coming months. So until we see the real bike, speculation is fun, but we can only guess.
Absolutely, but the BASIC BIKE is probably finished. I mean we've heard reports of the Aprilia test riders being "amazed at how well it handles" (I forget who posted that, was it one of our beloved dealers?).
So I suspect it's the look and details that are yet to be sorted - seats, fenders, sidecovers etc, more than the basics - motor/frame/forks etc.
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I like that bike. Now if i ever get one it needs to come with the leather sports jacket that the guy on the left was sporting ;D
"that guy on the left" is Miguel Galluzzi, VP of Design.
the one on the right is Marco Lambri, The guy who runs the Piaggio Style Center.
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Absolutely, but the BASIC BIKE is probably finished. I mean we've heard reports of the Aprilia test riders being "amazed at how well it handles" (I forget who posted that, was it one of our beloved dealers?).
So I suspect it's the look and details that are yet to be sorted - seats, fenders, sidecovers etc, more than the basics - motor/frame/forks etc.
Probably true.. To get the bike past EPA and DOT takes a while, so they must have the engine, drivetrain, etc done and a test mule or two ready to go. The new engine will require a ground up testing, including hours at the track racking up mileage.... Then there is the government "red tape" that has to be managed before the type acceptance is granted.
THEN then can do the styling treatment ..
Lots to do by Fall!
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Love it...hate it, it will be here...it won't be here, it's pretty...it's ugly. Say what you will, I cannot remember a single model motorcycle sparking so much conversation on this board since it was born. That says something in itself.
Put bags on it, pillion seat, nice wind protection, and real horns on it, bring it to USA by April 2013 and I will buy one.
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In the video they kept saying "next Fall" - do they really mean this Fall (2012) or Fall of 2013? It does seem like a lot to do before Fall 2012...
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That was progress for Moto Guzzi! ;D :pop :pop :pop
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Love it...hate it, it will be here...it won't be here, it's pretty...it's ugly. Say what you will, I cannot remember a single model motorcycle sparking so much conversation on this board since it was born. That says something in itself.
Put bags on it, pillion seat, nice wind protection, and real horns on it, bring it to USA by April 2013 and I will buy one.
:+1 :drool
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One big improvement to the design that I can see that would improve the mock-up. Make a seat option that has the old style bench seat available. Make the rider portion with more foam to build-up the rider part. Add the pillion part so that it can be used for a passenger and allowing the rider to slide back for more room. Voila!!! Adjustable seating for everyone.
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(http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2950/1400p.jpg)
I think most bikes look best from the rear three quarters angle, especially long bikes.
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That's a good point! IMO the proposed 1400 doesn't look that long.
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If it is even close to what we think it is, I will be inclined to be purchaser of a new one in 2 +/- years. It's the closest thing to what I have been looking in a long time.
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I think most bikes look best from the rear three quarters angle, especially long bikes.
No truer statement. ;)
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ok just cause i have one handy, i agree
(http://s7.postimage.org/c0egna8rb/IMGP2363.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/c0egna8rb/)
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The rear three-quarters view works pretty well for women too.
(http://images-dev.com/wp-content/themes/wordphoto/wordphoto/scripts/timthumb.php?src=http://images-dev.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Megan-Fox-Dev-34.jpg&w=729&zc=1&q=114)
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I really like the appearance of this bike, accept the taillights which I feel are a bit over the top. If the specifications are right I will get one.
I see its main competition to be triumph's thunder bird which at 1600-1700 and a massive long stroke engine at that, the 1400 MG can never compete on torque with it, however with a much smaller stroke and less capacity in general I'm hoping it will be able to rev harder say 7000-7500 and produce good HP say 115-120 .
I feel it needs a wet weight around 270-280kg at most (thunder bird 340kg)
Radial mounted brembos will be superior, as to I have no doubt will be the general handling and suspension.
In short I think MG could well bring out a new type of cruiser (and when I say cruiser I mean forward controls and foot boards) one with a lively engine that's happy to rev a bit with reasonable weight, good handling and suspension with sports bike caliber brakes.
All I need to know is what HP at what RPM, and the weight figure
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The bigger(wider) the pistons, the less high rpms they can safely go to. I have a 660cc single, therefore it's red line is @6,700 rpm. A rev limiter makes sure of that. ;)
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The bigger(wider) the pistons, the less high rpms they can safely go to. I have a 660cc single, therefore it's red line is @6,700 rpm. A rev limiter makes sure of that. ;)
It really has a lot to do with bore/stroke ratio and piston speed, not to mention valve train spec.
Guzzi generally redlines its twins between 7600 and 9000 depending upon the particular engine.
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It really has a lot to do with bore/stroke ratio and piston speed, not to mention valve train spec.
Guzzi generally redlines its twins between 7600 and 9000 depending upon the particular engine.
I agree, mainly piston speed, (ie the stroke) assuming the valve train is similar to the existing 4 valve heads, we know the valve train wont be limiting the RPM
Higher RPM is the only advantage it's engine will have over the huge stroked (and huge capacity) twins of its opposition and even they can rev to 6000
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I'm sold .... a hot Italian with "perky" 1400c jugs ... ;-T
I will definitely have one in my garage when it hits the USA ....
(http://s8.postimage.org/ye4avwkv5/th_securedownload.gif) (http://postimage.org/)
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After looking at the photos of the upcoming California 1400 I'm very encouraged. Like many people I'm hoping they'll make a few adjustments (I really don't like the tail light) but over all I'm pleased.
(http://blog.motorcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/031412-2012-moto-guzzi-california-1400.jpg)
Today I noticed how big the oil cooler is on the front of the bike and I was wondering if there might be a way to hide it? It's so big that for quite a while many people thought it was a radiator. I really love the look of an air cooled engine, and my 2001 California doesn't have any oil cooler to obstruct the view. So today I'm simply speculating since the bike isn't even out yet, and wondering how you might be able to hide this huge oil cooler. I wouldn't want to paint it black, since having it silver at least matches the engine cases. But, has anyone ever mounted a oil cooler to the bottom of the frame to hide it?
Thoughts...suggesti ons?
Thanks,
Robert
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I don't mind the oil cooler and I love the fork leg treatment. Reminds me of certain well loved bikes from the seventies.........
Get rid of that scalloped thing and stick a nice flat dual seat on it. Shorties can buy the cruiser version. Change that rear fender and give it a normal rear light and an industrial strength luggage rack. Move the footboards back a couple of inches. Throw in the heaviest flywheel Mandello can come up and dial-out any smoothness. Never mind any 'top end rush'. I want thudding great torque from about 1500 rpm. Now we might be getting somewhere. We been asking for it for years - Eldorado is almost here.
With those minor changes, I would happily trade in the Breva.
Nick
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Yes, the front at least does look like a loop frame, eh? Could this be what Greg Field was hinting at a little while ago when describing the mysterious new Guzzis?
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I agree that the cooler is not attractive. Maybe a shroud that could direct the air could improve the looks.
Even though the Griso has the cooler on the side, the Griso 850 didn't have a cooler at all and looked much better (too bad they never brought the 850 to the states!)
BTW how's that front brake line routed?
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(http://s15.postimage.org/nrehlyh2v/031412_2012_moto_guzzi_california_1400_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/nrehlyh2v/)
Others have commented on the valve covers, but they are in the same proportion as roundheads. Not meaning to hijack, but I don't mind the oil cooler.
Nick
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Oil cooler underneath the engine = BAD idea.
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If they make the oil cooler large enough, if might hide the ugly parts more. ;-T
:beat_horse
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Honestly, that photo is the best one I have seen to date, :) but I will reserve my final judgement until I see one in person. :) Maybe it will look better in person ???
Even though I think it is a little "sausage-like", I do like it better however, than the Ducati Diavel, that's for sure. ;-T :)
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The oil cooler is substatially smaller than similar H20 cooled bikes radiators. Yes it's bigger than what we have seen before on a Guzzi, but dam, so is the motor!
To me, it's not distracting in the least. But if you have target fixation, well then I guess your gonna get what you see.
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The more I see of this thing, the more I think it'll be a great mix of my lost and lamented Valkyrie and the current Calvin. As for the oil cooler - while I generally don't like the aesthetically disruptive nature of any cooler - this one has a very purposeful and un-apologetic look that would grow on me. Though I do worry about them being low and trailing the front tires.
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After looking at the photos of the upcoming California 1400 I'm very encouraged. Like many people I'm hoping they'll make a few adjustments (I really don't like the tail light) but over all I'm pleased.
(http://blog.motorcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/031412-2012-moto-guzzi-california-1400.jpg)
Today I noticed how big the oil cooler is on the front of the bike and I was wondering if there might be a way to hide it? It's so big that for quite a while many people thought it was a radiator. I really love the look of an air cooled engine, and my 2001 California doesn't have any oil cooler to obstruct the view. So today I'm simply speculating since the bike isn't even out yet, and wondering how you might be able to hide this huge oil cooler. I wouldn't want to paint it black, since having it silver at least matches the engine cases. But, has anyone ever mounted a oil cooler to the bottom of the frame to hide it?
Thoughts...suggesti ons?
Thanks,
Robert
Think about what you said Robert. It is a cooler and needs maximum airflow to do its job. They could mount it to the rear or under the seat to hide it, but putting it under the frame rails is about as advantageous for cooling. It looks to be in the best possible place for this purpose. My vote is keep it there!
-Kevin
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Its a delicate looking booger, considering where it's located. I'll wait until the real thing comes out..
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Consider it a splash guard for the engine. Looks like there is one up to of it with a scoop directing air onto it. They made room for the horns between and then the splash guard radiator below. I like the look myself for this ride.
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What would hide the oil cooler most effectively would be the speedometer displaying "about" 70 mph and the Rocky Mountains coming into view on an early October morning! What oil cooler... :pop
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/fotoguzzi/IMG_0002.jpg)
oh sorry, wrong cooler..
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Maybe you could install a cowling like is on the new Norge's...I didn't notice the cooler myself...But am glad they are there....for a reason ya know. hehe!!!
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Great pic of the bike. Is that an ABS ring on the front wheel? I sure hope so.
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Thanks for the all the ideas and suggestions. ...Even the funny ones! ;D
I'm hopeful that Moto Guzzi corporate will see this thread and at least consider a cosmetic change to hide the oil cooler. For the most part I think they're on that right path, but a little tweaking would help too. In every post I've seen about this bike during the past year, where we all reviewed and speculated about distance concept photos, no one has really been a fan of the following.
1. The rear tail light
2. The extremely busy speedometer
The rest of the bike has basically received mixed reviews, which I find encouraging considering our grumpier posters share their thoughts so frequently it always skews the overall feedback! :D ;D Seriously, there's a lot to like about what they came up with so far and maybe with some constructive criticism they'll tweak a few remaining things to appeal to even more of the core audience.
I know pinpointing the oil cooler is sort of a nitpicking thing, but I do like the look of traditional air cooled engines. To me that's a traditional Guzzi! So since I'm not an engineer, does an oil cooler really need to have the usual square or rectangle shape to be effective? Let's face it. The proposed square oil cooler is so huge and it was mistaken for a radiator for almost a year! What if the oil cooler had more of a wishbone shape and was mounted to the frame accordingly? Below is a quickie drawing I sketched a couple minutes ago to explain.
(http://s16.postimage.org/lu4fvl8dd/Wishbone_Oil_Cooler.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/lu4fvl8dd/)
Once again I'm not an engineer (as you can tell! ;D), and I don't have any idea if something like this would work. Just trying to brainstorm about ideas that would make sure everyone can see that beautiful Guzzi engine coming down the road.
What do you think?
Robert
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Robert,
Remember, "off the rack" is always cheaper than "custom." IMHO Guzzi has gone with a "stock" part number from one of their suppliers to keep costs reasonable. The design has proven itself and has been durable (though the fins do get "dinged" but can be straightened with a "fin comb").
Now, if you want a custom oil cooler for your 1400, I know a guy who does beautiful radiators in copper - each one hand made when ordered. Price? Oh, probably 1/10th the cost of your 1400 (after TTL). If you want chrome double the price. :o
Yes, it would be fun to "see" a stylized oil cooler. But I would rather see the Rockies on the horizon and the speedometer reading "abot 70." ;-T
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How about twin coolers, long and slender mounted on each downtube. painted black. Still in the air stream but less 'visible'?
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Any guesses on where that gas tank is going to start rotting out?
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I think the 1400 looks great.
Y'all can complain about the seat (you will change it anyway).
Now everybody wants them to hide the oil cooler... ;D Remember back when they wanted to show off the that stuff? I had one of these and rode it everywhere until I had a rather nasty wreck on it. It's a little bit 70's Japanese "fugly" but I did always like the unfinned barrels. 1976 Suzuki GT750 "Water Buffalo" water cooled 2 stroke.
(http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a433/bigdogpup/1976_GT750A_450.jpg)
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PS- What's up with the bad Photoshop job where the exhaust magically enters the crankcase (upper pipe)???
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That 1400 is a damn fine looking motorcycle for a power cruiser.
I think all that cooler needs is a black mesh protector to keep the rocks from the front wheel at bay and make it a bit less obvious.
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it's not photoshopped but an original picture, it is the reflection
from the new style footboard carriers that makes it look a little weird.
:BEER:
the Suzuki GT 750 is one of the nicer seventies bikes from Japan IMO.
;-T
Wow, I guess you're right! It sure looks fake even when you zoom way in but I think you're correct.
Yeah, Suzuki was proud to show off their radiator in 1975 (although the real "spaceship" was the RE5 rotary)
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I figured with the seasonal helmet thread going on. I'd toss this in for the heck of it. :bike :bike :bike :bike :bike :bike
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Look..... Squirell!
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Fourteen Hunert?
Why does anyone need so much powah ?
:o
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:+=copcar P:) :BEER:
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It's disgusting... IT looks like a modern motorcycle, big block power, sweeping lines, why can't Guzzi stick to the 1970 design that it is famous for... I'd never buy one, but I am sure plenty of people would pass at the chance and Guzzi would go out of business once and for all !!! THEN we can complain that parts are REALLY slow..
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maybe if it had REAL TUBE tires, I'd consider it...
;D
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Gee i wonder if it comes with one of those crappy steering dampers my stone has.
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I wonder what kind of oil it takes ???
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Will it contribute to Global Climate Change? ???
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Will it contribute to Global Climate Change? ???
Yes you will notice increased wind speed when riding.
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I heard a rumor that it will have an oil dipstick from "The Dipshit Dipstick Company Inc." ;D
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I wonder if the steering head bearings will come with grease or if it would be an option?
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I read that it needs a hose clamp on the oil filter.
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You guys are never happy........I read that the seat will give you a dose of hemorroids....that alone should help sell it by the thousands....
Rich EV
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4K3kFFnYDg
the thoughts of piaggios management on the new cali.
john
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The Miguel and Marco Show is back in business. ;D
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I was expecting them to start it up :( grrrrr
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Laying to rest yet again the tired old question of how to pronounce Moto Guzzi. I liked him referring to simply Guzzi too.
As far as the 1400 - there seemed to be a bit of tap dancing as to whether that bike shown will actually represent the finished 1400 leaving lots of room for input. Here's mine; Un-Honda that exhaust flare, stow those shock remotes, calm the vertical seat-side cover-final drive break and change the down tube angle of the exhaust to mimic the frame tube angle.
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that was great. So they'll be a traditional version of the new 1400 bike before this model hits the market.
interesting.
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I wonder if the steering head bearings will come with grease or if it would be an option?
It will come with grease that will quickly was out.
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Will it have the oil filter in the sump? Fuel filter in the gas tank? Plastic gas tank? 'Cause those are all really neat ideas!
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It will come with grease that will quickly was out.
I want a bike with easily accessible grease fittings on everything, and I want it high enough off the ground that I don't have to kneel on hard concrete to change the oil, and I want a shiny chrome oil filter protruding somewhere like all my riding buddies have on their bikes, and I want it to be self cleaning and get 55 mpg and cost less than a small car and ...
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I wonder what kind of oil it takes ???
The newest Agip 5w70, of course....
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Ah hell, go for broke. 0w100 ;D
Need link -- can't find that at WalMart. Or is it over by the lawn tractor batteries? ;D
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It looks better there, than in previous pictures that I've seen.
Eric
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Carl; I thought you were still waiting for the Scrambler version..... :BEER:
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Well.... there isn't any such animal.
Really? ;)
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Well, with seasonal helmuts come seasonal tars, and seasonal air, and and and ???
Is the Cali 1400 seasonal too ??? Can it be all wheel drive ??? These are the questions that drive mankind crazie. :o
Well there and other stuff like poufters. ;D
NO POUFTING........... .........
Zoom Zoom,
John Henry
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Here's to hoping the bike comes with those tars that have the tread shaped like the Guzzi eagle.
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I'm gonna wait 10 years for the price to come down then STEAL it from a dealer for thousands less!
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Looks smaller too. Very easy to make an appropriate bench for it with a little step for the passenger.
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The fellow on the left looks like a 'made' man.
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The fellow on the left looks like a 'made' man.
;D
(http://s18.postimage.org/i73stctt5/gfcali.jpg)
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http://www.newscanon.com/moto-guzzi-california-1400-to-the-end-of-2012-with-the-liquid-cooling/
If it's on the internet, it must be true.
:beat_horse
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Oh....goody....anot her Cali 1400 thread. What is this no. 17??? ;D Wonder if it's the final modification before production?
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But apparently only the "engine block" will be cooled with "liquid ANTI FREEZE". Guess that's better than solid anti-freeze. Head and cylinders must still be air cooled though! ;) ;D
"We already had it unveiled recently, but these official pictures taken during the last convention of the American brand shows us more: the forthcoming Moto Guzzi California 1400 is a custom neo-retro splendor with a promising V-Twin liquid ANTI FREEZE, and we waited at the end of 2012. Yum!
The latest Moto Guzzi World Days, held as always in Mandello del Lario, had already been the scene of crucial information on the renewal of the Moto Guzzi range. It was learned that the future California unveil a brand new watercooled engine block."
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Isn't this in conflict with what dealers have been told?
If so, where are they getting this. Are they making it all up based on photos?
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It seems to go back and forth from air to water to air to water. I guess we'll know when it gets here. For all I know it could end up like the Ippogrifo and they'll scrap the whole damn thing.
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I can't believe any "news" source that is so poorly written.
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my guess is that bike is made of wood & clay
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So much for the written word.
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I think the second cooler is for the automatic transmission when you have the optional heavy-duty towing package! ;D
;D
Yeah, neither of those look sufficient to be an engine radiator. Looks like dual oil coolers so maybe one is a transmission cooler?
I'm obviously no mechanic but I've never seen a proper radiator that small.
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quote: We already had it unveiled recently, but these official pictures taken during the last convention of the American brand shows us more: the forthcoming Moto Guzzi California 1400 is a custom neo-retro splendor with a promising V-Twin liquid ANTI FREEZE, and we waited at the end of 2012. Yum!
I didnt know that Moto Guzzi is an American brand. All this time, I thought it was Eye-Talian. ;D
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Quote from Crusty:
I didnt know that Moto Guzzi is an American brand. All this time, I thought it was Eye-Talian.
Look out H-D and Victory, we now have a third American motorcycle company nipping at your heels. :BEER:
GliderJohn
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Quote from Crusty:
Look out H-D and Victory, we now have a third American motorcycle company nipping at your heels. :BEER:
GliderJohn
Nipping, or napping?
From what I could find -- 2010 sales figures:
2010 Harley shipped 210,494 bikes
2010 Victory shipped 81,624 bikes
2010Moto Guzzi shipped -- what? 4,000 bikes?
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We have been staying in Mandello for five days.
Two visits to the Museum and lots of hanging around the town.
I spoke to a security guard at the factory today and he told me that 160 workers were busy building new big California's.
I said 1400? and he said yes.
From the Museum window we could see that the engine assembly shop was working, and from the gate up the hill the top building was busy.
The buzz around the town is that Moto Guzzi is doing well.
No pictures at this stage.
Cheers, Voncrump
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Very cool report!
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Let us hope that there aren't 160 "Luigis'" engaged in the build process. ;D
Well we all know there will a a few Luigis , But we all should not be surprised that Guzzi is doing well with the buzz on the V7 Racer, California 1400 , the 2012 Norge and the much anticipated arrival of the 2012 Stelvio's.
About time ! ;D
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Wonder how the lunch traffic to Hardy's is??? I'd be concerned if I saw a line-up of red coveralls for their shots of grappa before going back to the assembly line. ;D
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Good to hear they are doing well! :BEER:
Zoom Zoom,
John Henry
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Maybe this'll morph into Cali 1400 thread # 20. ;D
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It doesn't take a lot of thought to realize what keeps a bike manufacturing company going. Or the Moto Guzzi club that started all this in the beginning... Join the MGNOC...support our club...Enjoy one of the most unique motorcycles ever built...I do...
Thanks for the factory report...
Steve
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I wonder what's going on in the "engine assembly building". Last year the big stink was that engine assembly was going to Pontedera.
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I wonder what's going on in the "engine assembly building". Last year the big stink was that engine assembly was going to Pontedera.
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/draidt/DanRaidt/imagesqtbnANd9GcTMX0nzj5jWO0h0nnjhu.jpg)
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Well this won't be good news for Greg Field, you know how he hates Piaggio.
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It's really good to read that someone is seeing activity at the factory.
Many of the pictures over the past few years seem to portray it as a ghost town.
I'd sure like to visit Mandello someday.
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Well we all know there will a a few Luigis , But we all should not be surprised that Guzzi is doing well with the buzz on the V7 Racer, California 1400 , the 2012 Norge and the much anticipated arrival of the 2012 Stelvio's.
About time ! ;D
That's right!!!!!
Never mind the new V7's and California's . . . get to work on my Stelvio!!!!
Ordered and still waiting!!!!!
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Remember all those reports from a few years about how it was a done deal and all the operations in Mandello would close? Glad they weren't true.
Guzzi always keeps you guessing.
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Well this won't be good news for Greg Field, you know how he hates Piaggio.
Only Piaggio? Seemed he also wanted a completely new engine for their survival.
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Here are some snaps I took during their lunch break.
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/Desmolicious/guzziworkers2.jpg)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/Desmolicious/guzziworkers3.jpg)
I'm kinda suprised my bike turned out as well as it did...
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good news. I am looking forward seeing the new machine. I am glad the traditional factory is going strong.
Is a new LeMans around the corner?
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See any RED Norge 8 valves?
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Oh come on.....not even one spy shot, seriously? It's not Fort Know you know.
Mark
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Remember all those reports from a few years about how it was a done deal and all the operations in Mandello would close? Glad they weren't true.
Guzzi always keeps you guessing.
Seriously, what a joke that was... not only is the old factory re-tooled and rolling the second Mandello Guzzi factory just a mile up the road is almost ready to roll also:
(http://scoot.net/gallery/bbs/guzzfact1.JPG)
(http://scoot.net/gallery/bbs/guzzfact.JPG)
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I don't understand. My every contact with Guzzi reflects on an organization of a couple of men, a bus load of teenagers, and an ape.
With a pretty girl out front, at reception.
Those photos make Guzzi seem like a large, well run corporation.
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I'll say one thing; Guzzi knows how to build a factory in a beautiful setting! I bet the roads in the area are equally sweet!
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Oh come on.....not even one spy shot, seriously? It's not Fort Know you know.
Mark
I have several spy shots but I have not been able to post them because I cannot get them to select from my IPad photo gallery.
One shot from the museum of the door of the engine shop as it was closing. Before it closed we could see workers and bikes through the door.
Another shot through the top gate when it was open but the guard was watching me from the security booth and when I stepped over the line of the gate he started to wave and direct me back out. I then stepped back one pace and pointed to my camera and he nodded. After I had taken the shot I decided to go around to the pedestrian security gate to see how far I could get. The guard came out of his office and stopped me before I had got to the electronically monitored turnstile. This is when I spoke to him about what was happening at the factory.
Maybe it is not Fort Knox but the security is modern and serious.
I did not want to annoy the guard too much as he was the one that opened up the Museum.
I will post the shots when I get home to N Z or sooner if I can work out how to from the IPad.
Cheers, Voncrump
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Oh my, I was just kidding. Sorry I didn't put a smiley face in my post. I'll gladly enjoy anything and everything you're able to post.
Thank You,
Mark
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With a pretty girl out front, at reception.
Please post pics of pretty girl! :PICS!:
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Please post pics of pretty girl!
Guzzi reception:
(http://www.dankalal.net/2006trip13/photo043.JPG) (http://www.dankalal.net/2006trip13/photo046.JPG)
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I have several spy shots but I have not been able to post them because I cannot get them to select from my IPad photo gallery.
What you need to do is download the Photobucket app, it's free. You can then upload the photos to Photobucket and go from there. If you normally use a site other than Photobucket they probably have an app as well.
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Last week I phoned the Guzzi customer service number and spoke to a very nice lady and asked her what was the latest ecu map in my Breva. In perfect English with a slight Italian accent she said she would phone me back, which she did. I considered this a very pleasent experience.
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We have been staying in Mandello for five days.
Two visits to the Museum and lots of hanging around the town.
I spoke to a security guard at the factory today and he told me that 160 workers were busy building new big California's.
I said 1400? and he said yes.
From the Museum window we could see that the engine assembly shop was working, and from the gate up the hill the top building was busy.
The buzz around the town is that Moto Guzzi is doing well.
No pictures at this stage.
Cheers, Voncrump
;-T
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I'll say one thing; Guzzi knows how to build a factory in a beautiful setting! I bet the roads in the area are equally sweet!
They are! The best part is that while on the road they expect someone on a motorcycle to pass them. ;-T
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After the race at Miller Park.
(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1623/maxtweet.jpg)
(https://p.twimg.com/AuFEKOWCMAMAzyH.jpg)
http://twitter.com/maxbiaggi/status/207522000271454208/photo/1
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I wonder if Max ever did flat track or speedway? They would sell all the 1400s they could make if they did showed him drifting the Cal around like Nicky Hayden did on the Goldwing when it first came out.
Pete
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He regularly train with supermoto (there are several videos on youtube).
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I'd say Max has a little bit of talent when it comes to riding a motorcycle.
(http://anthonyparker1.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/417.jpg)
I hope his promotion of the brand helps sell a few more Guzzis.
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Someone on the Animaguzzista forum saw a New California on test around Noale.
These pictures are from a Polish Guzzi Club.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/318171_335895233145501_1413982174_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/579313_335892469812444_690154789_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/575007_335894896478868_675923734_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/560381_335897643145260_2114148002_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s720x720/554723_335891969812494_1902575758_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/558712_335891529812538_1373094375_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/547427_335888923146132_1933931916_n.jpg)
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Thanks for the pics! ;-T
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Awesome pics! That wheel is huge :o
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It ain't for most current Guzzi folks, but it will get the attention from others. Probably smart.
Kevin
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I hope they sell every one they can produce.
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Much as I dislike cruiser style (don't hate, please), that seat REALLY makes the thing more attractive. It makes the bike look shorter.
Guzzi seems to have always had a sort of genius for improving the look of its machines with just a subtle paint accent or similar low-cost alteration. Design with a small -d-, but still, kind've remarkable.
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Thanks for the pix. I'd still like the option of a straight bench seat with on no step.
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"Song of the Sausage Creature!!" ;D ;D :D :D ;) ;) :) :)
... and the Winning Comment is: ;-T
To my eye that thing is definitely a Guzzi Rune -- memorializing yet another classic looking bike whose memory is being trashed by some "designer."
Then again, I'm a guy who likes the look of the Cali tank, the Big Rukus, and that '60's Ducati 250 desmo-thumper...
--mb
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I am seriously considering selling my 1700cc Yamaha Roadstar so I can justify one of these...
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Why does the right frame tube look crushed in the second to the last picture? The frame almost seems like a variation of the Griso frame. I may put my beautiful Griso on the market now in anticipation of the California 1400 coming next year.
I really hope they make them available in the white version from the first round of pictures.
All the best,
Mark
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Whats the bracket for hanging off the front in the first 2 pictures? At first I thought signals but they are there already....Almost looks like a fairing mount...
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coming soon:
(http://s17.postimage.org/om9ckoxvv/roadog_roaddog_custom_motorcycle.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/om9ckoxvv/)
Perfecto .............
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Why does the right frame tube look crushed in the second to the last picture? The frame almost seems like a variation of the Griso frame. I may put my beautiful Griso on the market now in anticipation of the California 1400 coming next year.
I really hope they make them available in the white version from the first round of pictures.
All the best,
Mark
If you look in the 4th picture you'll see the left has the same kink.
I am intrigued by the 2 braided lines that come from the transmission which would be where possibly the clutch actuator lives
Adam
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Maybe it'll sell, but not to me. Forward controls blow. ~; :BEER: Not to mention the weight of that center stand.. ;)
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It's interestimg how many people have judged the bike based on very little information, and only a couple of pictures. When I first saw a picture of the Griso S.E., I thought it looked extremely ugly. It wasn't until I actually saw one in real life that I found it to be really nice looking. With the 1400, each picture is making the bike look better. I thought the bike looked pretty ugly in the first set of pictures, but with each new set of pictures, it looks a little nicer. I think I'll reserve judgement until I can actually see one in real life.
Does this mean that I have to turn in my red suspenders?
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I go against the grain. I like it, a lot. ;-T
It's time to invent new looks, works for me.
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It's interestimg how many people have judged the bike based on very little information, and only a couple of pictures. When I first saw a picture of the Griso S.E., I thought it looked extremely ugly. It wasn't until I actually saw one in real life that I found it to be really nice looking. With the 1400, each picture is making the bike look better. I thought the bike looked pretty ugly in the first set of pictures, but with each new set of pictures, it looks a little nicer. I think I'll reserve judgement until I can actually see one in real life.
Does this mean that I have to turn in my red suspenders?
I agree about the looks. Forward controls?? Not for me.
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You guys calling these forwards have never actually seen a bike with forwards have you?
Forwards are raised pegs at the very front of the motor and frame. When riding with forwards your legs are near straight.
These are similar to Calis and HD touring bikes. Somewhere between mids (knee in front of you and foot below your knee) and forwards. I suspect one's foot will be slightly in front of one's knee, leg still mostly bent.
This gives lot's of options for leg and foot positioning and lends itself to comfortable all day rides without completely compromising your lower body for handling/bike control.
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It's not a bad looking bike. As I said, it looks like the current crop of long 'n' low cruisers. My own doubts are mostly functional. I don't like forward controls, and I see no real reason to have an engine that large on a bike. Small engines begin to lose efficiency at around 1000cc. Modern fuel injection and electronic ignition can stretch that to maybe 1200cc. Even that is not a given: you have to burn x amount of fuel to produce x amount of horsepower. Mega engine bikes tend to get fewer miles per gallon than newer cars. My EV gets nearly 50 mpg as long as I stay below 80 mph. Stock Harleys get more than their competitors, generally, though that advantage tends to disappear if you mess with the motor. Generally, though, bigger engines suck down more gas.
Fuel economy is not necessarily a deal killer, though it will be more important in the years to come. However, I like standards. To me, the EV feels really close to the neutral riding position you get on a standard. Full boat cruisers put your feet forward; sport oriented bikes put your feet behind you. Neither is comfortable to me for very long. Standards are pretty rare nowadays. BMW, Triumph, and the Honda CB1100 that they never brought over here are the only ones I can think of. I really think people are closet standard-lovers, because the closest thing that's popular nowadays is probably a dual sport.
It sort of makes me sad to see the new California. MG seems to have taken away most of what I love about the EV. "I'd give it consideration, but it looks like it would be a hard sell to get me to buy one. Hopefully, they'll come up with something more to my liking before I get ready to buy again.
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You guys calling these forwards have never actually seen a bike with forwards have you?
Forwards are raised pegs at the very front of the motor and frame. When riding with forwards your legs are near straight.
These are similar to Calis and HD touring bikes. Somewhere between mids (knee in front of you and foot below your knee) and forwards. I suspect one's foot will be slightly in front of one's knee, leg still mostly bent.
This gives lot's of options for leg and foot positioning and lends itself to comfortable all day rides without completely compromising your lower body for handling/bike control.
For me, if you can't stand on the pegs or boards without hoisting yourself up by pulling on the handlebars, the feet are forward controls. I can sit on the EV on the center stand, and stand on the boards without touching the handlebars at all. THAT's midset controls. For me. Look at the pegs on a Stelvio, or a BMW GS, or a Kawi KLR.
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That's a fancy looking rear shock. Doesn't look like much travel though.
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Gnigma - I could stand on a Harley dresser with boards in a similar position. The jury's out on this but I think you're making assumptions re capabilities and ergos of this bike. Like a lot of people did with Harley tourers, and others with the Diavel, and others with the Triumph R3...
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The styling cues on the Cali 1400 remind me of the 1980s Kawasaki ZL 900/1000 bikes. It's yesterday once more, shoo bee doo lang lang?
(http://s18.postimage.org/b068sbowl/ZL_1000.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/b068sbowl/)
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There was some kind of tragic story behind the builder of this bike. I remember reading about him being shot and killed by the police in Wisconsin?
(http://s7.postimage.org/hx1squ2gn/wisconsin_motorcycle.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hx1squ2gn/)
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Gnigma - I could stand on a Harley dresser with boards in a similar position. The jury's out on this but I think you're making assumptions re capabilities and ergos of this bike. Like a lot of people did with Harley tourers, and others with the Diavel, and others with the Triumph R3...
You could be right. The boards on the new bike, however, line up with the cylinders on the engine--- just about where the fold down highway pegs are on the EV. When the footrest is forward of the junction of the seat and tank, it's a forward control design. It really does not matter to me; right now I'm not looking to buy another bike. All I can say at this point is that it's pretty, and it looks to be set up as a cruiser. I'm happy with my pseudo-cruiser.
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You guys calling these forwards have never actually seen a bike with forwards have you?
Forwards are raised pegs at the very front of the motor and frame. When riding with forwards your legs are near straight.
These are similar to Calis and HD touring bikes. Somewhere between mids (knee in front of you and foot below your knee) and forwards. I suspect one's foot will be slightly in front of one's knee, leg still mostly bent.
This gives lot's of options for leg and foot positioning and lends itself to comfortable all day rides without completely compromising your lower body for handling/bike control.
You're fulla carp, Kev. ;D :BEER: If they're not below me or behind me, they're "forward" controls. Don't like em. Never have. Never will. ~; That's why they make all kinds.
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Chuck - You don't have to like em...just understand there's a difference between forwards, touring controls, and mids, just like there's a difference between standard and rearsets. Are you even a potential customer? Have you owned a Cali or cruiser before?
Gnigma - I hear you about some alignments but since dimensions of the new motor are unknown we can't be sure about the relative dimensions yet. I certainly hope they're not too extreme.
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The Roaddog plus others http://www.factoryfat.com/moreautofour.html
(http://s16.postimage.org/ns99ok2oh/roaddog.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ns99ok2oh/)
(http://s9.postimage.org/drblewf3f/gel_bike.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/drblewf3f/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/y70qpbic3/gel_bike_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/y70qpbic3/)
The Gelbke story by Buzz Wallneck: By Buzz Walneck
Back in 1965 a guy by the name of William Gelbke, also known as "Wild Bill", constructed a bike of his own design. He dubbed his creation "ROADOG" and began touring the United States on it. Bill and ROADOG were seen all over the country. It is said that Bill put over 20,000 miles on ROADOG the first year alone.
Bill graduated college in Wisconsin as an electronic engineer and moved out to California for additional schooling at a Southern California University. On leaving there, he was scooped up by McDonell-Douglas for work in a defense system program. Bill did not enjoy his work at McDonell-Douglas. He dreamed of designing and building motorcycles. One day, he decided to realize his dreams and he left McDonell-Douglas. Now he was free to build motorcycles his way! He began to design ROADOG. His design included Earles front forks, an automatic transmission and lots of power for touring and reliability. Add to that a shaft drive and disc brakes...OVER 30-YEARS AGO!
Bill moved to Chicago and opened up a cycle shop on Cicero Avenue. That was about 1962, when his plan was to build a prototype bike that he would test and ultimately put into production as a smaller model. His plan for the production model included an 80-cubic inch, English automotive 4-cylinder engine with an automatic transmission and shaft drive.
With "ROADOG" Bill wanted a bike that would cruise indefinitely at 90+ MPH. He wanted a bike as reliable as could be made. With an "IRON DUKE" 4-cylinder 152 cubic inch Chevy II engine, a Powerglide transmission, a modified Chevy differential and Corvette disc brakes, that type of reliability was accomplished. ROADOG had no side stand, but was parked with the use of four hydraulic rams, which were individually deployed by the driver. After touring the country, Bill went to work on the production model which was called the "Gelbke Auto-Four". While larger than a big Harley, they were quite a bit smaller than ROADOG and employed an Austin Mini engine and transmission. About 8-were produced and sold.
In 1972 an article on ROADOG was printed in a magazine. The article stated that the bike was 17-feet long and weighed 3,280 pounds! Also, that it could easily cruise at 90+ MPH, and that Bill had driven the bike more than 20,000 miles with no problems. The article pointed out that Bill's goals were to produce a bike that was dependable, had out-standing highway roadability, and high-speed, long distance cruising ability. Bill certainly achieved his goals!
We have heard quite a few stories from old friends of Bill. Some go like this: "Let's take a ride (from Wisconsin), to Oklahoma where you can get a really good steak". Or "Let's take a ride to Texas where they have really good beer"• often done in February or March! Another guy told us of seeing "Wild Bill and ROADOG" passing him on the tollway here in Illinois at about 100-MPH!! Before long he spotted Bill and a State Trooper on the side of the road. A few minutes later, he was again passed by Bill and ROADOG, again doing about 100-MPH! Later he stopped at Bill's shop and asked if he had gotten a ticket. Bill told him that the police officer had stopped him just to get a better look at ROADOG!
Later Bill moved back to his hometown in northern Wisconsin and went into another field. In 1979 Bill was killed in a domestic dispute and "ROADOG" disappeared not to be seen again for 15-years. Over the years I saw posters in various cycle shops with Bill sitting on the bike, and wondered what ever happened to him and the bike. Was it laying in some garage? Was it rusting away in some junkyard or had it been long ago chopped up as scrap? After about a 6-year search, we did a small article in our magazine, which prompted a couple of calls to us. Then one day "THE CALL" came in.
"I know where the big bike "ROADOG" is". Shortly thereafter, we were headed off with a large trailer and bought the bike. The 15-years of storage were pretty kind to it, and it was soon running again. We are keeping it as an unrestored bike, looking just like "Wild Bill" left it.. all those years ago.
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It doesn't appear to be a CARC bike.
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I will hold out on passing judgement concerning the 1400. The factory rarely calls for my opinion on most anything. IMO I would have liked to have seen a smaller (750 CC) Stelvio on the market. While I love my 2009 Stelvio (5500 miles in six weeks) I think the buying public is looking for more affordable, fun and rideable motorcycles. I think, due to size and production output that Moto Guzzi would have looked at moving volume rather than a styling exercise.
I really hope that the new models sell well and that MG stays in business for many years, who knows, I might need a few spare parts.
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It doesn't appear to be a CARC bike.
True, but was it ever expected to be?
The earliest images shown what a year or more ago showed twin shocks.
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The Roaddog plus others http://www.factoryfat.com/moreautofour.html
(http://s16.postimage.org/ns99ok2oh/roaddog.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ns99ok2oh/)
(http://s9.postimage.org/drblewf3f/gel_bike.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/drblewf3f/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/y70qpbic3/gel_bike_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/y70qpbic3/)
The Gelbke story by Buzz Wallneck: By Buzz Walneck
Back in 1965 a guy by the name of William Gelbke, also known as "Wild Bill", constructed a bike of his own design. He dubbed his creation "ROADOG" and began touring the United States on it. Bill and ROADOG were seen all over the country. It is said that Bill put over 20,000 miles on ROADOG the first year alone.
Bill graduated college in Wisconsin as an electronic engineer and moved out to California for additional schooling at a Southern California University. On leaving there, he was scooped up by McDonell-Douglas for work in a defense system program. Bill did not enjoy his work at McDonell-Douglas. He dreamed of designing and building motorcycles. One day, he decided to realize his dreams and he left McDonell-Douglas. Now he was free to build motorcycles his way! He began to design ROADOG. His design included Earles front forks, an automatic transmission and lots of power for touring and reliability. Add to that a shaft drive and disc brakes...OVER 30-YEARS AGO!
Bill moved to Chicago and opened up a cycle shop on Cicero Avenue. That was about 1962, when his plan was to build a prototype bike that he would test and ultimately put into production as a smaller model. His plan for the production model included an 80-cubic inch, English automotive 4-cylinder engine with an automatic transmission and shaft drive.
With "ROADOG" Bill wanted a bike that would cruise indefinitely at 90+ MPH. He wanted a bike as reliable as could be made. With an "IRON DUKE" 4-cylinder 152 cubic inch Chevy II engine, a Powerglide transmission, a modified Chevy differential and Corvette disc brakes, that type of reliability was accomplished. ROADOG had no side stand, but was parked with the use of four hydraulic rams, which were individually deployed by the driver. After touring the country, Bill went to work on the production model which was called the "Gelbke Auto-Four". While larger than a big Harley, they were quite a bit smaller than ROADOG and employed an Austin Mini engine and transmission. About 8-were produced and sold.
In 1972 an article on ROADOG was printed in a magazine. The article stated that the bike was 17-feet long and weighed 3,280 pounds! Also, that it could easily cruise at 90+ MPH, and that Bill had driven the bike more than 20,000 miles with no problems. The article pointed out that Bill's goals were to produce a bike that was dependable, had out-standing highway roadability, and high-speed, long distance cruising ability. Bill certainly achieved his goals!
We have heard quite a few stories from old friends of Bill. Some go like this: "Let's take a ride (from Wisconsin), to Oklahoma where you can get a really good steak". Or "Let's take a ride to Texas where they have really good beer"• often done in February or March! Another guy told us of seeing "Wild Bill and ROADOG" passing him on the tollway here in Illinois at about 100-MPH!! Before long he spotted Bill and a State Trooper on the side of the road. A few minutes later, he was again passed by Bill and ROADOG, again doing about 100-MPH! Later he stopped at Bill's shop and asked if he had gotten a ticket. Bill told him that the police officer had stopped him just to get a better look at ROADOG!
Later Bill moved back to his hometown in northern Wisconsin and went into another field. In 1979 Bill was killed in a domestic dispute and "ROADOG" disappeared not to be seen again for 15-years. Over the years I saw posters in various cycle shops with Bill sitting on the bike, and wondered what ever happened to him and the bike. Was it laying in some garage? Was it rusting away in some junkyard or had it been long ago chopped up as scrap? After about a 6-year search, we did a small article in our magazine, which prompted a couple of calls to us. Then one day "THE CALL" came in.
"I know where the big bike "ROADOG" is". Shortly thereafter, we were headed off with a large trailer and bought the bike. The 15-years of storage were pretty kind to it, and it was soon running again. We are keeping it as an unrestored bike, looking just like "Wild Bill" left it.. all those years ago.
Great stuff , thanks for this . Sure proves the old saying about truth being stranger than fiction . Cheers.
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True, but was it ever expected to be?
The earliest images shown what a year or more ago showed twin shocks.
Yeah, I know.........but the early drawings and articles are NOT always what comes to production. I'm just a tiny bit surprised that they didn't make it a CARC bike.
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Yeah, I know.........but the early drawings and articles are NOT always what comes to production. I'm just a tiny bit surprised that they didn't make it a CARC bike.
True true...but I'm not talking drawings or articles, I mean Piaggio press photos and mock-ups which are usually pretty close to the truth and they were all dual shock, from the early white one, to the early black one and finally the later black ones showed at this years EU and US dealer meetings.
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I got to see the bike and meet Buzz when he brought it to Carlisle,Pa sometime in the mid 90's. The bike is a monster and not particularly attractive.
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I think the new Cali will go head to head with the Triumph Thunderbird http://www.triumph.co.uk/uk/12785.aspx Very similar in design IMO
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Then the M-G better be r-e-a-l good. I've ridden both the standard and the Storm versions of the Thunderbird. They are great bikes with lottsa torque and handle very well. The price of the 1400 may make the difference....??? We'll have to wait and see. The Kid
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Maybe if one were to hang a steak from the handlebars the dogs would play with it? IDK; maybe the design will grow on me? :-\
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At least get it straight, the real thing, not some wanna-be poser... Wild Bill Gelbke and the Roadog...
http://thenewcaferacersociety.blogspot.com/2008/05/wild-bill-gelbkes-road-dog.html (http://thenewcaferacersociety.blogspot.com/2008/05/wild-bill-gelbkes-road-dog.html)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g125/fishheadsaid/roadog.jpg)
coming soon:
(http://s17.postimage.org/om9ckoxvv/roadog_roaddog_custom_motorcycle.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/om9ckoxvv/)
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I'm not to moved by the first picture. Awful long, I like how they covered the frame with the tank. I talked with a tank builder about doing it on the Griso. He said he could, and this is pretty much what we came up with a facade or tank cut out around the cylinder. It does have the Rune, Diavel seat, Victory tailight, look. All things I don't favor. I never liked alot of the Guzzi bike's styling though. The Centuro and Jackal I never warmed up to. This is a street/cruiser shot for sure. There is only one line from the clutch I think your looking at the wires from handle bar controls. While speaking of controls, these are definately Forward controls. The shifter is almost in front of the frame and engine, and the floor boards are too forward to stand up on. My Harley boards were moved forward only two inches and you cant stand on the boards without pulling your self up with bars and can't stay on them. These boards are forward of the Cali's, which actually got complaints about their placement. Harley controls are not, all forward and up. Depends on the model, and besides we were doing forward controls on choppers in the 60's before Harley copied custom mods we were doing. Same as they do today. Or are we talking about the girls bikes? (Sportsters) The Guzzi crowd definately have a differant perspective when it comes to bikes and looks. I haven't had a pipe since the 60's and I don't have any suspenders, maybe thats part of the problem. ~T~
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I still say it's gonna depend on actual dimensions.
Remember this bike was designed to look big, bit actually looked smaller once they started showing pics with people in it like the execs or Max Biaggi.
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I still say it's gonna depend on actual dimensions.
Remember this bike was designed to look big, bit actually looked smaller once they started showing pics with people in it like the execs or Max Biaggi.
<poking with stick> Naw, you're still saying it doesn't have forward controls.. ~; :BEER: ;D
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<poking with stick> Naw, you're still saying it doesn't have forward controls.. ~; :BEER: ;D
LOL well yes, it's still a touring and not gynecological exam position ....but maybe I'm letting my optimism get the better of me.
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I found these factory photos on Facebook. I haven't seen them before. Hope you enjoy.
(http://s16.postimage.org/xodnwjmjl/598668_446491895370022_1995403949_n.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/xodnwjmjl/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/oij98py31/319755_446491868703358_713897194_n.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/oij98py31/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/g4qlhj36t/576695_446491848703360_1869661397_n.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/g4qlhj36t/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/6m2hyi6uv/550971_446491835370028_1534826302_n.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6m2hyi6uv/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/6ncfrx8on/543699_446491792036699_1915206481_n.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6ncfrx8on/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/b9wwj94v9/167405_446491762036702_1476631121_n.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/b9wwj94v9/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/sexi7ltvf/223858_446491805370031_1746235422_n.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/sexi7ltvf/)
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Dogwalker beat you to it by about a day. Good stuff though.
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:wife:
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OMG, those pictures are so GROSS !!! :-X
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Choppers and all types of custom builds back in the day included pegs attached where ever they could be attached out front, bars and seat allowed riders to lay back and feet out front. Then controls were moved forward, again any way that worked. We used chains for linkage a lot. Controls moved forward of a standard position became forward controls, whether floor boards or foot pegs were used. Early Harley tour bikes FLH's had high seats and boards in a standard placement and later years in Evo and Twin Cam FL's boards and controls started moving forward more and more. Harley has always kept track of mods and custom work done by riders which sported home made or after factory parts and then installed parts and designs on their stock models. In most cases they bought out after factory part makers designs to keep them from making them and then Harley put their name on the parts. The Shovelhead Wide Glides were one of the early stock bikes that came with forward controls stock to copy chopper designs. If you look at that seat position and where those floor boards, and controls are on the New Guzzi 1400 they are definitely forward of a standard position. Same happened with the British race bikes and rear sets, they just refer to controls and pegs moved rear of standard. Forward controls is nothing more than a term used for controls forward of a standard position regardless of the bike, they dont have to be high or wide or exaggerated as on some choppers. :) Another thing I hear from newer riders is they refer to foot clutch, hand shift bikes as Suicide Shifter or Suicide Clutch. Again actually it was a mod done to a standard foot clutch hand shift bike. ;-T
~T~
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I would suggest that language is fluid and terms change.
I would generally agree with you if not for the vast difference between seating with true forwards (leaning back on tailbone) vs with touring controls and typical floorboards (sitting straight up). These generally also vary in leg positions the former almost straight and the later almost 90. So although some might call the later forward, I think that's unfair and doesn't accurately tell the story.
Despite that oddity I suspect most of us can recognize the following types even if we disagree on the definitions:
Legs bent, knees in front of feet, feet below or behind butt (rearset)
Legs bent around 90 degrees, knees in front of butt, feet generally below knees (standard / mid)
Legs straight (or nearly), feet well in front of knees (forwards)
Where I claim a difference is between mids and forwards.
I generally feel current FLHs (and those since the EVO), FLSTs, Calis and some Japanese brands with floorboards (maybe Vice too) have floorboards which allow the rider to sit up (not leaning back), feet slightly in front of knees, but legs still bent. Generally sufficiently steady enough to stand without pulling. I call those touring mids for lack of a better term because I find them closer to the functionality of mids than sole of your boot, toes pointing up, legs nearly straight, can't stand on pegs "forwards".
Semantics? Perhaps.
Granted I understand how riders of sportbikes would call almost anything not rearset "forwards" from their perspectives. But to do so seems lacking in precision of meaning, to color with too broad a stroke things that are not as similar as the one term might suggest.
I continue to hope these controls turn out to be more like a Cali or FLH/FLST than the true forwards of an FXST or Victory with pegs etc
Time will tell.
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I often run into riders that started riding Harleys during the Evo days, or the big majority that started with Twin Cams. They grow a goatee get some ink and presto a biker, and even worse an expert on all things Harley. Usually these are the same guys that told all the Harley jokes and talked about leaks and how they were junk. Fact is they were either too young, couldn't wrench on bikes and didn't have the guts to pay dues and had no passion to ride them. They waited until it was safe to ride them with all the other Road King newbees and the bikes were leak free and they could take them to the dealer for service. In their mind they know Harleys and might have even trailered to Sturgis. You try to be nice to them and educate them, stop and help them. Fix their bike, save them money, you know, teach em something. Same true of Guzzi Riders, I rode across country coast to coast with a Eldo in 1976. Owned two and a Lemans 1 back in the day and bought them when you could buy them for $100-$200. I'm sure there's guys here on this site that have lots of Guzzi story's and info. Thats why I come on here as I have 3 Guzzi's still as well as Liter Ducati's, BMW, Harleys (I've had several since 1972 high school) Indians, built, restored, customized British, Italian, American, German, have several trophys. I try to follow forums for info when I have time. I love to hear story's and get experienced scoop from experts and seasoned riders. I have a tough time sometimes staying tuned in long, as there's always a few of those "presto see my dew rag experts" that know too much to learn anything. Ones that talk alot but don't say much, see its a virtual world where anyone can feel safe spouting on line and have more posts than miles under their belts. I ride with young and old, sport bikes, adventure, Harleys, all the time all over the country. I dont have red suspenders, a beard, not that that's a bad thing, but I've been around and like young guys that listen and learn and ask, instead of try to convince you they know it all. I love talking to guys with bikes that have done their own work and share tips and stories. The original Indian owner/riders have great info tips and stories. If you met me you would never know I've been around as long as I have. I remember alot but keep up with the new bikes, and times pretty well. Also been around long enough to remember the 80's and those Gargoyes and Razor glasses and back when they were in. I also have open face helmets from the 60's and 70's not re-pops. ~T~
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I'm still kinda new here so maybe we help me figure out who is on here to learn and share, who has experience and is a seasoned rider and who is F.O.S. and just doesn't have real friends and have no one to listen to them so they become virtual experts. It would save me time as I could skip some posts. ;D Sorry I'll try again in the morning. I do enjoy motorcycle info, problems, fixes, issues, warranty info. good stories about rides and people, pictures, new products and such, thank-you to those that contribute that and I will contribute to the forum best I can and contribute $$ also. ~T~
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/318171_335895233145501_1413982174_n.jpg)
(http://en.moto-guzzi-club.com/graphics/gallery/full/31_2008ii.jpg)
The lever seems a little behind that of The California Classic to me.
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V - I'm certainly a good bit younger than you and have little experience with 70s Harleys, mostly because I didn't go to high school till the 80s and started riding in the 90s. My Harleys (I've owned 5 so far) have all been EVOs by choice (ive rebuilt an IH for a friend and uhh no thanks). In my mere 20 or so years of riding I've enjoyed Harleys, BMWs, Guzzis and a number of other sundry brands/bikes. My career gave me access to a ton more for a while and I thoroughly enjoyed the variety. It's rare that someone other than me lays a wrench on my machines, but the occasional warranty job crops up.
Not sure what all this resume stuff has to do with the ergos of the new Cali or related semantics, but it's all good.
Dogwalker. Maybe it's image quality on this phone but is that the pivot you can see on the new Cali? Is the toe shifter still at the front of the floorboard? That's the dimension people are using to say these are more forward. And they might be, but I still say height and distance from seat to control is going to make all the difference.
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In the picture, the toe shifter is at the center of the floorboard (under) and of the cylinder (above). We'll see on the definitive bike.
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Really? So there's no heel? How is the linkage setup? That's a long way to go without a pivot? ???
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IMO Guzzi successfully made the old californias look even better. :)
I guess the motor can be used in a decent tonti frame to make a decent ride. Maybe get a T5 for peanuts and put that motor in, some clip-ons and go scare the ninja crowd in the twisties... :)
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Really? So there's no heel? How is the linkage setup?
Too low tresolution to see. It seems there could be a pivot, above the lever, just under the front of the starter motor.
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In the picture, the toe shifter is at the center of the floorboard (under) and of the cylinder (above). We'll see on the definitive bike.
Nah. That's just the point where the linkage attaches to the shifter.
If you look just behind the header pipe, you'll see the "toe" of the black shift lever coming up an a steep angle. The "heel" is at the rear of, and level with, the floorboard...
This is obviously a cobbed up preproduction bike. The shift lever looks like it's made of sheet steel.
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I dunno. A pivot (for a heel toe) would have to be at/near the center of the shifter.
If that's a toe only shifter assembly the rod is AWFUL thin and travels an awfully long distance to the shifter.
I'm afraid what you're thinking is the shifter might be a pivot.
UNLESS we're dealing with something funky like an electronically actuated shifter assembly - then the shifter rod would just be actuating a switch and you could have such ridiculously long linkage.
But I highly doubt that's the case.
Even though it doesn't support my hopes/guesses, I'm thinking that's the pivot at the center of the floorboard.
But we'll see...
Keeping the hope alive - Kev
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Look closely Kev.
That pre production bike has a heel/toe shifter.
It's black sheet steel.
Read my above post.
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Look closely Kev.
That pre production bike has a heel/toe shifter.
It's black sheet steel.
Read my above post.
Yeah, I saw your post and tend to agree...
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There's a lot of supposition based on some photos of pre-production / test mules. I remember the pre-production spy photos of the V-Rod. They looked nothing like what was eventually introduced. I wouldn't be so quick to either fall in love with or completely write off the 1400.
I am wondering what the extra hydraulic line from the clutch is for, though.
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I am wondering what the extra hydraulic line from the clutch is for, though.
Bleeding?
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That pre production bike has a heel/toe shifter.
It's black sheet steel.
Yeah, now i see it.
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Granted these are most likely prototypes and subject to changes. We are looking at two bikes, the first one page one, second shot down, a solo seat position very much to the rear, and floorboards with a toe shifter out front about as far as you can go and have most people reach it from the seat where its placed. Its shifter is silver and a couple inches forward of the boards. This is similar to my Road Glide set up, seat a solo, and seating moved back, boards moved forward, shifters moved forward with the boards, makes for great distance riding. The second "polish" bike looks to be an uncompleted mock up with a whole other arrangement. I also agree with the mention of the Griso's first impression, I did not like it at all, at all, the space heater on the right side, the frame/tank. I warmed up to it and looked at what could be styled better and bought one in 09. For me it was fun but didn't fit as a tour, twisty road, or around town bike. It was kinda Vee Rod, street drag, and didn't do any one thing real well. So after dressing it up I traded it off for a Tricked out, and Tuned for canyon racing, Stelvio with a ton of weight removed with upgraded suspension, pipes and tires. Much more practical, more fun in the canyons, and handle's tough roads in the desert and Mexico well. Plus it tours. To each their own, the 1400 might work and look great for some. I'm just not sure where it fits in with what I have and the riding I do. Love to see Guzzi coming out with new stuff though. There's a group of guys down in L.A. that ride with the Pro Italia crowd that know how to set those Stelvios up to run like a Hypermotard. tuning electronics, custom pipes, and suspension that transforms a Stelvio. Check with ProItalia if your out that way, great shop, on top of their game. ~T~
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Did anyone notice the 7,000 rpm red line, its a little lower than I was expecting and I'm guessing lower than most Guzzi's. Does anyone know what the red line is on the current California is ???
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Did anyone notice the 7,000 rpm red line, its a little lower than I was expecting and I'm guessing lower than most Guzzi's. Does anyone know what the red line is on the current California is ???
Actually not much higher....
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My 09 CalVin is 8000.
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My 09 CalVin is 8000.
REALLY - that sounds kinda high.
I thought I remembered that my Breva 1100 (very similar motor - i.e. pistons, crank, and I thought cam) redlined at 7500, but maybe it was higher (CHECKED OWNER'S MANUAL and it says 7600 rpm).
Page 53 Running-in
After the first 2000 km (1250 Mi) you may run the engine harder, however, without exceeding the maximum rpm allowed 7600.
My Dyno run from FBF suggests it may go a little higher, but it stops before 7800. Though I will say it pretty much continues to grow in hp output all the way to the rev limiter. Torque starts dropping from peak after 5800 rpm or so, but only slightly.
My Jackal didn't come with a factory tach so I had no marked redline, but I always got the impression the rev limiter was set lower than on the Breva. Now it pulled all the way to the limiter, but specs say max HP was at 6400 rpm on the Jackal, so I'm pretty sure it didn't rev much past 7k.
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8000 redline marked on my Bassa's tach.
Just went into the garage and checked.
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Although the 1100 calis tended to drop off the top of the cam in their upper reaches. 1100 sports will run through to about 8k but after 7 you can tell the two valve design is starting to hit its flow limits. Not too bad for an old nail IMO.
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Took my 79SP and 85the LeMansIV to 9000 with out issues.
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8000 redline marked on my Bassa's tach.
Just went into the garage and checked.
That's interesting - now do us a favor, go bounce it off the limiter while you're watching and confirm it's not just an optimistic Guzzi tach labelling. :BEER: ;-T
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Maybe I can help. I had a Bassa for almost 10 years and bounced off the limiter many, many times. Although the tach reads 8000, the rev limiter kicks in at 76-7800 rpm. For some reason I have not hit the limiter on the Breva 1100 yet, perhaps because it is a bit faster and I'm chicken?
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Thanks Chad! - that's what I was figuring based on the specs and my memories of the Jackal and B11! ;-T
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Here's a photo. However, I've found that anything above 7K is mostly noise. The meaty part of the powerband ends at 7K.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c229/JamesBagley/85522fe3.jpg)
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On my '97 Cali 1100i. Same as posted by others. Tach optimistically shows 8K as redline but the engine would start to lose it after 7K. Which is where I'd shift rarely usually by 6500K.
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Do any of our members who know the secret handshake have any word on the release or order date for the new model? I am developing a tic waiting for it.
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Who said 2013? Maybe no Cali's for US import for 2013. And thn the 'new and improved' for 2014? Of course it maybe the European 2013 model we get in 2014...but hey!
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Word from my dealer is it will be here in 2013.
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Word from my dealer is it will be here in 2013.
Aug 2013 as a 2014 model?
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October maybe? The new V7's are slated for 4th quarter, probably the same with the new Cali.
THIS OCTOBER? no way.
There are new V7s on the road in Europe now, but no Cali 1400s.
October 2013, maybe.
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You have to go over to Guzzitech.com and take a look. I think its looking dam good for it's intended demo. This one has bag mounts, sans bags.
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You have to go over to Guzzitech.com and take a look.
No you don't...
(http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/download.html?id=4269&mode=view)
(http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/download.html?id=4270&mode=view)
and Gee it looks so huge, fat, overwieght, bloated bla bla bla ::)
</sarcasm>
:BEER:
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it looks like cruiser feet-forward riding position. Looking at the photo, I am pretty certain it's water cooled and has a vulnerable oil cooler close to ground.
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it looks like cruiser feet-forward riding position. Looking at the photo, I am pretty certain it's water cooled and has a vulnerable oil cooler close to ground.
You're either really funny or completely nutz.
Didn't we hear with certainty from inside sources it was air/oil?
And I still don't think that looks any more forward than the current Cali or MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE a Harley dresser - it's certainly no where near the position of a Victory or Softail with forward controls on footpegs.
But I guess we'll know more for sure soon enough.
Maybe even sooner than later as this is a great sign... (i.e. that it is nearing production).
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What's up with those spotlight mounts sticking waaay out there? ???
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Maybe i'm nutz our just optimistic. As for the cooling method too many sources I trust have said it was NOT water...but time will tell on all counts.
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I'm reserving judgement till I see one in the flesh, but from the pics I've seen, the controls do look more forward than previous california models. Knowing clever Guzzisti, someone will work out a rearset kit to take care of that.
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More forward than current Tonti Calis....yeah perhaps, at least in comparison to the motor. But that's still not as bad as bikes like the Vrod, Softail Custom, Victory Hammer etc.
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What's up with those spotlight mounts sticking waaay out there? ???
Yeah, Really, thats exactly what I wondered.....also that front end sure seems to have alot of rake in the side view. surely looks like they went for the "boulevard Cruiser" look. Though not the way I would do it, I still think its Cool , with lots of attitude.
I bet that torquey beast will pull your arms out of their sockets!
Rick.
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I like it. Looks badass.
I'd need drag bars and rearsets to be comfy on it, but I'm glad they're going to have another California in the lineup soon.
It's sure to be a nice bike.
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Maybe i'm nutz our just optimistic. As for the cooling method too many sources I trust have said it was NOT water...but time will tell on all counts.
I think Kev is right, it has to be air cooled. Just look! The tank has melted around the heads!
Seriously though I am stoked to see a new California.
Hunter
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In the broken English of my grandfather....."attsa nice a bike". I mean it Nonno spoke that way...
I loved it when I first saw it and I love it still. As to the riding position....seems to me from the first picture that Kev M posted that it is slightly forward of a standard motorcycle...as to the mounting of the driving lights....reserving judgement until I get another view.
Jim
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More forward than current Tonti Calis....yeah perhaps, at least in comparison to the motor.
Looks like 5-6 inches forward (in comparison to the jugs)
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It's not my kinda bike but I am liking it more. Footboards right in line with left, rearmost cylinder, not overly forward. Look at the rake on those forks, though. The thing ought to be stable at speed. No, it is not water-cooled.
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I like it a lot. Much more a man`s motorcycle compared to the rather feminine aspects of the current V7.
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OK, you guys are killing me. Anyone wanna a super sweet white Griso 8v for a super sweet deal? This bike calls to me more and more every time I see it.
All the best,
Mark
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The only thing that's a real turn-off for me is the crazy LED array all over the rear fender.
A simple tail light as seen on the Bassa/Special or on the V7 Classic would sure look better.
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The picture from left quarter shows the ends of the mufflers and they seem tiny for an engine of its size. Can anyone shed light on what the diameter of the exhaust pipes needs to be on a 1400? Perhaps there's a benefit from maintaining back pressure, or something like?
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The picture from left quarter shows the ends of the mufflers and they seem tiny for an engine of its size. Can anyone shed light on what the diameter of the exhaust pipes needs to be on a 1400? Perhaps there's a benefit from maintaining back pressure, or something like?
The same complaint was made regarding the small muffler outlets on the original V7 (V700), by Americans, according to G. Field, Moto Guzzi Big Twins. Guzzi then changed them to bigger outlets to satisfy the perceived need. Maybe they'll do that again!
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So we're accustomed to seeing larger outlets than what are really needed? It's not totally surprising but is news to me. I always thought the outlet size was closely related to what made the particular system work most efficiently for the engine involved!
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Looks like they raided the Vespa exhaust stock..... no noise no joy, the Italians used to be the masters of making engines sound good....
Not sue you will hear anything from those exhausts, and can't see much air coming out a tiny hole like that.
Na it's not my cup of tea.....
Stretch
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I'd ride it with pride!!
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FWIW, I like it more n more...
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FWIW, I like it more n more...
+1 ;-T
Same here Kev m.
Mark
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So we're accustomed to seeing larger outlets than what are really needed? It's not totally surprising but is news to me. I always thought the outlet size was closely related to what made the particular system work most efficiently for the engine involved!
Your last sentence is true, I believe. But it is still possible for a manufacturer to accommodate the buyers' preconceptions even at the expense of the intended performance, I suppose. I think we may indeed like bigger outlets than are needed. Think how many cars with big V8's have had a single modest exhaust pipe.
I actually kind of liked the small openings precisely because they reminded me of the small ones on the original V7 (V700). And I also liked the straight pipes more than the usual modern style that angle up; maybe a larger capacity set of saddlebags is in the offing.
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It doesn't even have to be at expense of performance since what matters is the restriction point which could be concealed before the final ( and likely is).
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...am I seeing bag mounts or carriers on the side?
kjf
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Just paint or anodize the insides of the exhaust pipe outlet and you'll never notice the actual diameter of the outlet. I like the looks of it so far, but I agree about the stupid looking tail-lights, that looks like an idea they got from a Aprilia Atlantic scooter.
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It LOOKS pretty. I'm withholding judgement on a couple of things--- the light bar, and the rear lighting, mostly. I still believe the boards are awfully far forward. I'd like to get a look at the right side and the brake pedal just to see how hard it would be to move the boards back some.
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Regarding the pipes, I am certain that several aftermarket suppliers will be on this, pronto. Unless you live in California (and maybe even there), you'll have a choice of several mufflers to produce and depper, more mellow tone from the big twin.
Ditto what somebody else said about the led tail lights. A more-unified design element here would look better to me.
Overall, though, I'm liking it better.
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Absolutely agree on the taillight, but hey look at the bright side, maybe this one won't break or melt. :BEER:
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Several nice-looking oem tail lights are out there and could be grafted onto the Cal14. I know, I know but it is a possibility.
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Guzzitech has a third picture not posted here at http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/download.html?id=4271&mode=view This one also isn't very clear but it does show the bike in motion. That being the case it gives the best shot so far of where your feet are under way. "feet forward' yes, but certainly not in a dramatic way IMHO.
So, someone, check out my beautiful white 2009 Griso 8v so this baby can actually stand a chance of making it to my garage when it's available.
Mark
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(http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/download.html?id=4271&mode=view)
Maybe it's semantics but I'd say that supports what i've been saying from the first pics. That's a standard seating position like mid mounts. Legs bent at or near 90° is no where near forward controls.
That said, legs do look closer to the jugs then on previous Tonti Calis so there is a difference.
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I like it. Looks badass.
I'd need drag bars and rearsets to be comfy on it, but I'm glad they're going to have another California in the lineup soon.
It's sure to be a nice bike.
Agreed (+1) Actually, with rider, and from those angles, it does not look too bad! :) 8) ;-T
However, make no mistake, it will be a heavy-weight cruiser (aka "A Whale...") :o :o ::) ::) ;D :D ;) :)
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Glad I've got my '02 EV, I'll take it over what I see here.
Dean
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Sorry, but that is hideous. I predict it will be as well received in the marketplace as the Honda Rune.
Yep, I'm with garp... ugly and much too cruiser/harleyish for this cowboy. Seems the wrong direction for the old marque.
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Sorry, but that is hideous. I predict it will be as well received in the marketplace as the Honda Rune.
And you will be proven wrong. :)
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Say what? I've had dozens of guys tell me my V7 Café is a beautiful bike and even asked to take pictures of it. Exactly one female has remarked on how it looks. I'm going to go out on the limb here and surmise that you consider any bike with less than 120+ horsepower as "feminine". Sorry to disappoint you, but there are some of us out here that not only like the smaller bikes, we're capable of riding them to their full extent and getting at least as many smiles per mile as the guys with the two wheeled nuclear bombs. Rant mode off. That statement just got my goat though. I'm not into the "Man's Motorcycle" mode that involves a rolling parade with "look at me" as the major function of the bike, that's a style that belongs to that other V-twin.
I couldn't have said it better! ;-T
Dean
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For the sake of the brand, I hope you are right. That said, if it is successful, and this is the new direction for the brand, then I suspect I have bought my last new Guzzi.
I don't think it's likely as dire as all that Garp. I don't see any reason to think that because Guzzi has decided to produce a bike aimed more directly at the current big bore cruiser market, that they would be abandoning the markets segments they already serve.
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Considering how well the Griso and V7 are selling I highly doubt the Cali 1400 styling is going to define the styling of the entire brand.
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(http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/download.html?id=4271)
This bike just looks too long. Also too low. Look at the man's knees are even with the top of the tank. The only pictures in which it looks proportional are the three-quarter front and rear view pics which hide the longness of the bike. Some of you are trying to hard to like it.
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I know its all perspective but that rider looks pretty big compared to the man behind him in the pic. It might be a big guy on there
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Too long or low for what? It's nut trying to be a Griso or Stelvio.
And I can't see how someone can determine functional limits without more info than a few photos.
I'll be surprised if it lost much cornering ability from the Tonti Calis and MOST owners/riders of those can't use all of it anyway.
But time will tell.
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(http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/download.html?id=4271)
This bike just looks too long. Also too low. Look at the man's knees are even with the top of the tank. The only pictures in which it looks proportional are the three-quarter front and rear view pics which hide the longness of the bike. Some of you are trying to hard to like it.
C'mon, really? Look at how distorted that picture is. EVERYTHING in that shot is too long and low... unless you think that test rider is half man, half praying mantis. Some of you guys are going out of your way to find reasons to hate it. Well, haters gonna hate...
The bike is beautifully proportioned and should sell well (at least, for a Guzzi...).
(http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/download.html?id=4269&mode=view)
Hey, even Carlo Guzzi likes it. Look! He's looking down at it (from heaven?), smiling.
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C'mon, really? Look at how distorted that picture is. EVERYTHING in that shot is too long and low... unless you think that test rider is half man, half praying mantis.
If the pictures were distorted the wheels would not look round. They look round to me, so I don't think there is distortion.
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^^ That back wheel looks round to you? ???
Compare the two pictures in my post. Why does the bike look shorter in the bottom picture? It's the same bike.
EDIT: Just showed the pics to my gf. She's not a Guzzisti, but she knows a thing or two about motorcycles. Her (unsolicited) take: "It looks like an updated version of your bike [2003 California EV]." Bingo! Piaggio nailed it.
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^^ That back wheel looks round to you? ???
Compare the two pictures in my post. Why does the bike look shorter in the bottom picture? It's the same bike.
Yes, the back and front wheels look round to me. You think only the right side of the first picture is distorted?
The bikes look the same length to me in the two pictures.
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Reminds me of this monster.
Dean
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Bmw-cruiser.jpg)
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That was no monster - it was a weenie.
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Say what? I've had dozens of guys tell me my V7 Café is a beautiful bike and even asked to take pictures of it. Exactly one female has remarked on how it looks. I'm going to go out on the limb here and surmise that you consider any bike with less than 120+ horsepower as "feminine". Sorry to disappoint you, but there are some of us out here that not only like the smaller bikes, we're capable of riding them to their full extent and getting at least as many smiles per mile as the guys with the two wheeled nuclear bombs. Rant mode off. That statement just got my goat though. I'm not into the "Man's Motorcycle" mode that involves a rolling parade with "look at me" as the major function of the bike, that's a style that belongs to that other V-twin.
All I know is my GF and her girl friends who ride seem super excited about the V7. They like it`s looks and feel it is more suited to the way ( and they admit this) girls ride. Their cautiousness is something I wish I had more of.
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(http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/download.html?id=4271&mode=view)
Maybe it's semantics but I'd say that supports what i've been saying from the first pics. That's a standard seating position like mid mounts. Legs bent at or near 90° is no where near forward controls.
That said, legs do look closer to the jugs then on previous Tonti Calis so there is a difference.
The rider in the leading machine appears to have about a 60 degree leg bend... ? Perhaps the foot position has a little room to move around. Wouldn't that be nice?!
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That may well be, as the apparent position of the lower legs on the two riders is noticeably different. There may be something to the notion that the pic's have some distortion. Look at the door to the building, to me the ratio of height to with looks wrong.
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The door looks fine. It is a door with a side light on the left side. Look where the door handle is. Looks close to good to me.
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I think the angle of the photo accounts for some of the perception of less leg bend on the front rider, but if the seat is level enough foot boards usually allow for a greater range of sitting positions.
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Reminds me of this monster.
Dean
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Bmw-cruiser.jpg)
My neighbor has one of those and leaves it uncovered on the street 24-7. I think he's hoping someone will steal it, but no takers.
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the R1200C wasn't a bad bike, comfortable, handled well enough. I believe it was responsible for a significant increase in BMW sales in the first few years of it's production.
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(http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/download.html?id=4271)
This bike just looks too long. Also too low. Look at the man's knees are even with the top of the tank. The only pictures in which it looks proportional are the three-quarter front and rear view pics which hide the longness of the bike. Some of you are trying to hard to like it.
My knees are always at the top of the gas tank. On my LeMansIV and my 97 California.
May the fellow is just tall?
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Regarding the pipes, I am certain that several aftermarket suppliers will be on this, pronto. Unless you live in California (and maybe even there), you'll have a choice of several mufflers to produce and depper, more mellow tone from the big twin.
Yup, and they'll make it run like crap, rob it of power and increase its fuel consumption just like open pipes do to all the other 8V models
VDG
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Say what? I've had dozens of guys tell me my V7 Café is a beautiful bike and even asked to take pictures of it. Exactly one female has remarked on how it looks. I'm going to go out on the limb here and surmise that you consider any bike with less than 120+ horsepower as "feminine". Sorry to disappoint you, but there are some of us out here that not only like the smaller bikes, we're capable of riding them to their full extent and getting at least as many smiles per mile as the guys with the two wheeled nuclear bombs. Rant mode off. That statement just got my goat though. I'm not into the "Man's Motorcycle" mode that involves a rolling parade with "look at me" as the major function of the bike, that's a style that belongs to that other V-twin.
All I know is my GF and her girl friends who ride seem super excited about the V7. They like it`s looks and feel it is more suited to the way ( and they admit this) girls ride. Their cautiousness is something I wish I had more of.
I'm thinking I may have no testocred in this thread as I have to admit to driving (and very much liking) this:
(http://s11.postimage.org/svhfd0d4f/583663905903.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/svhfd0d4f/)
I do not permit any men friends with small dogs to ride with me, tho! My ego is fragile. :D
Still, I really like the entire new V7 series. There likely isn't one in my future, but that's because of fiscal reasons, only. Well, that and I'm working on getting spousal-unit approval for a "real" tractor right now, and don't want to screw that up. ;D
Seriously, I find it interesting that I cannot recall any woman other than Kathi ever commenting -- favorably or unfavorably -- on my EV, Ballabio, or Norge. Yet both sexes who notice are effusive about the Griso. Only a couple of the women are riders, tho. Whatever, the Griso gets lots of "I like that" words and looks.
The V7's strike me as elegant with an edge. I don't think I'd ever get one if I lived in the Great Flat as I do now temporarily, but in downtown Atlanta and back-roads Virginia, I think they would be super. See no inmasculinity in riding one. Well, unless with a lapdog. ::)
As for the C14, my jury is still out. Does not call to me in the slightest, but I think it might sell well. That's good for all Guzzisti.
Bill
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"C14". I like that.
"C14" is already taken - Concours 1400. Maybe Cal 14?
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You need to get your GF on to a V7 then. That it appeals to a female doesn't make it feminine though. My daughter likes Carl Urban. He definitely isn't feminine.
I hope she would get one. She calls them cute, so that sounds promising.
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The rider in the leading machine appears to have about a 60 degree leg bend... ? Perhaps the foot position has a little room to move around. Wouldn't that be nice?!
The front rider looks to be notably shorter than the rider following, accounting for the greater knee extension.
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Reminds me of this monster.
Dean
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Bmw-cruiser.jpg)
You should be ashamed smoking crack at your age
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Reminds me of this monster.
Dean
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Bmw-cruiser.jpg)
I remember seeing a flock of "pre-production" test mules of these when I lived in Cardiff, California. I went over to talk to a couple of the guys (I think it was at Kai's... Still there?) and asked them what movie they were made for just assuming they were "Judge Dread"-like Sci-Fi conceptual offenses. Oops, several of them were VERY proud Beemer types straight over from the land of Wurst (NPI) to show-off their latest offering.
Anyhoo...
I'm glad to see that this bike is not just a resin-wood-chewing gum mock up being pushed around shows to shore up company support and garner investment capital.
I like, I like a lot... Now - anyone over there listening? GIVE US A REASONABLE (NOT ACCEPTABLE) FUEL CAPACITY FOR U.S. DISTANCE TOURING PLEASE! We'll accessorize around any other shortcomings, thank you very much.
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Piaggio has the Griso, the Norge, the Stelvio, the V7 line and now the soon to be coming California 1400 in their line up. Looks very well rounded to me.
Great job Piaggio/Moto Guzzi,
Mark
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(http://s16.postimage.org/kiz4gkxup/Guzzi_California_1400_500x348.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/kiz4gkxup/)
I think this is the latest incarnation
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Not according to the latest pictures in this thread. But I suspect we haven't seen the final production version yet.
Mark
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Yeah, Really, thats exactly what I wondered.....also that front end sure seems to have alot of rake in the side view. surely looks like they went for the "boulevard Cruiser" look. Though not the way I would do it, I still think its Cool , with lots of attitude.
I bet that torquey beast will pull your arms out of their sockets!
Rick.
The "Boulevard Cruiser" is popular in the US. I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a best seller for MG.
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Put some bags and a fairing on it, take a long trip and report back to us. I bet it will be a winner just like the old Cali.
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Put some bags and a fairing on it, take a long trip and report back to us. I bet it will be a winner just like the old Cali.
As long as the dash works? 8)
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For the amount of money this new California will sell for I can buy and rebuild an Eldorado...complete with triple disk brakes.
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The sky is falling the sky is falling!! Wake up! What's with you folks thinking Guzzi is taking a whole new direction because of this one bike?? Did you think that with the V7 Racer? What about the Griso? Oh... and that dual purpose thingy? To draw a conclusion like this is absurd. I'm not a huge fan of these kind of cruiser bikes, but I think it's great and appropriate that they use their twin engine (now even bigger) to make a big cruiser. Seems logical and don't have a problem with it. I'll never buy one but who cares. I wish them the best. ;-T
-Kevin
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For the amount of money this new California will sell for I can buy and rebuild an Eldorado...complete with triple disk brakes.
[/quote
Good god, wil this never end?
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anybody here smart enough to figure out the rake of that front end,looks pretty well kicked out for a Guzzi.
By the way,this is not very appealing to me.
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For the amount of money this new California will sell for I can buy and rebuild an Eldorado...complete with triple disk brakes.
Good god, will this never end?
8) 8)
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For the amount of money this new California will sell for I can buy and rebuild an Eldorado...complete with triple disk brakes.
[/quote
Good god, wil this never end?
Yes, by God, when will people just learn how to learn simple html tags... :-* ;) :BEER:
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For the amount of money this new California will sell for I can buy and rebuild an Eldorado...complete with triple disk brakes.
Probably.
But then you'd still have an Eldorado...complete with triple disk brakes. :D
I do not find this model especially fetching. In fact, I do not have any interest in it.
But it appears lots of others do who just might be willing to pay the price of admission ... and become Guzzisti.
Not a bad thing.
Bill
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Well I do find this bike intriguing. It would appear to be a good, laid back mount for long distance touring with the wife. But I would like to have another bike or two to complement it. Maybe a V7 or a Griso.
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The "Boulevard Cruiser" is popular in the US. I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a best seller for MG.
anybody here smart enough to figure out the rake of that front end,looks pretty well kicked out for a Guzzi.
By the way,this is not very appealing to me.
I commented on the rake way back in the beginning of the thread. Guzzi is obviously making this one stretched-out locomotive. It should be extremely stable on the road. Lots of rake/trail on that front end.
Yes, these type bikes sell in the US. The new Guzzi could be popular in the market. It's long and low and gives great design prominence to that V Twin motor. The tank cut-outs really emphasize this. In a day of increasing examples of water-jacketed, non-descript engines, this thing cries out "big ass, real motor."
Whatever happened to the naysayers who bemoaned the transfer of Guzzi to these big companies, lol ? Remember all the panic-button hullabaloo about first Aprilia and then Piaggio closing the historic Guzzi factory and simply reverting to using the Guzzi label on other in-house models?
Piaggio and Aprilia really spurred the Guzzi brand along. They have developed and marketed some of the best bikes ever in the history of the brand, all the while retaining and playing off the classic, air-cooled Twin engine.
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I'm not going to judge a bike by some blurry shots of a pre-production mule in testing. All I know is that I've been eye-ing Road King's all summer. A relaxed riding position, two up comfort and the ability to put multiple 600 mile days back to back are items high on my priority list for my next machine. The new Cali appears to tick those boxes but again, I'll reserve judgement(and my $) until it actually arrives here for sale.
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Whatever happened to the naysayers who bemoaned the transfer of Guzzi to these big companies, lol ? Remember all the panic-button hullabaloo about first Aprilia and then Piaggio closing the historic Guzzi factory and simply reverting to using the Guzzi label on other in-house models?
Yep, we've had a lot of folks say its time Guzzi did away with this mill. That it's long in the tooth and just going nowhere for Guzzi. Some high profile guys even lost their jobs over it bemoaning Guzzi. They've done pretty darned well the past few years and I suspect they will continue their climb. This bike is an example of willingness to take Guzzi to the next level.
Kevin
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Yes, by God, when will people just learn how to learn simple html tags... :-* ;) :BEER:
When I started this thread, I did suggest that those who wanted to see the latest pic's of the 1400 go to Guzzitech.com to do so. I thought that since Todd has his own forum, and he was the one who found the pics and put them there, that the gentlemanly thing I could do was try and send some folks there. But it seems not everyone was of the same line of thinking, Kev. :( ;)
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When I started this thread, I did suggest that those who wanted to see the latest pic's of the 1400 go to Guzzitech.com to do so. I thought that since Todd has his own forum, and he was the one who found the pics and put them there, that the gentlemanly thing I could do was try and send some folks there. But it seems not everyone was of the same line of thinking, Kev. :( ;)
Not the HTML tags he was referring to.
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When I started this thread, I did suggest that those who wanted to see the latest pic's of the 1400 go to Guzzitech.com to do so. I thought that since Todd has his own forum, and he was the one who found the pics and put them there, that the gentlemanly thing I could do was try and send some folks there. But it seems not everyone was of the same line of thinking, Kev. :( ;)
The words, "gentleman" and "Todd" don't belong in the same sentence.
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The words, "gentleman" and "Todd" don't belong in the same sentence.
Which Todd are you referring to? Or all Todds known to this forum?
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I had hopes for a modern comfortable EV, maybe this bike is both. But even my wife took one look and said "that's ugly"
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When I retire I'll be looking for an easy chair bike that handles fairly well for road eating miles. Something along the ilks of a Road King or Wide Glide. These new beast from Guzzi may be just the ticket for that job.
It will be very interesting to see this effort in person and on the road. After all; I was not all that impressed with the Griso when it came out and now I own one. ;D
Sidebar: The Griso did not really appeal to me until the SE in green came out. I suspect the right paint colour and seat treatment on the new bike could open the flood gates of desire for the new model. I don't think they are quite there yet in that department.
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Yep, we've had a lot of folks say its time Guzzi did away with this mill. That it's long in the tooth and just going nowhere for Guzzi. Some high profile guys even lost their jobs over it bemoaning Guzzi. They've done pretty darned well the past few years and I suspect they will continue their climb. This bike is an example of willingness to take Guzzi to the next level.
Kevin
Thing is Kevin they have done away with the 'Old Mill'. Apart from its outward similarity the 8V motor has nothing, zero, zilch, relationship to the old 'Pushrod' engine.
As far as I can make out the 1400 Cali motor is simply a bored out version of the current 8V mill. It is neither water cooled or principally 'Air Cooled' in the traditional sense. It is oil cooled with air assist. The high rocker covers aren't. They are simply cosmetic shrouds to cover the twin HT leads and possibly plug-top coils on the new twin plugged heads. Cutaways of the prototype motors also had roller tappets and these are now listed in the parts pages for all earlier 8V's but are currently listed as 'Abolished'. I have no idea what this means????
VDG
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Thing is Kevin they have done away with the 'Old Mill'. Apart from its outward similarity the 8V motor has nothing, zero, zilch, relationship to the old 'Pushrod' engine.
As far as I can make out the 1400 Cali motor is simply a bored out version of the current 8V mill. It is neither water cooled or principally 'Air Cooled' in the traditional sense. It is oil cooled with air assist. The high rocker covers aren't. They are simply cosmetic shrouds to cover the twin HT leads and possibly plug-top coils on the new twin plugged heads. Cutaways of the prototype motors also had roller tappets and these are now listed in the parts pages for all earlier 8V's but are currently listed as 'Abolished'. I have no idea what this means????
VDG
Yep... that's what I said... modernize and upgrade the current engine (and throw in a little marketing so folks know who Moto Guzzi is)! The folks I'm talking about wanted water-cooled BIG hp engines (basically 4 bangers). This discussion took place a few years back when only the Stelvio had the new mill and not many folks had one. I stated that since nobody knew who Moto Guzzi was, even their current old mill would be new to them. Following my logic this would be true, yes?? I bet it's 1 in 10 around here who have heard of Guzzi. I will not tell who the biggest bad-mouther of the mill configuration we've had since 1966 was, but boy did he want it to be gone! "Death be to Guzzi" was his slander. I'm glad he was wrong.
-Kevin
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Thing is Kevin they have done away with the 'Old Mill'. Apart from its outward similarity the 8V motor has nothing, zero, zilch, relationship to the old 'Pushrod' engine.
As far as I can make out the 1400 Cali motor is simply a bored out version of the current 8V mill. It is neither water cooled or principally 'Air Cooled' in the traditional sense. It is oil cooled with air assist. The high rocker covers aren't. They are simply cosmetic shrouds to cover the twin HT leads and possibly plug-top coils on the new twin plugged heads. Cutaways of the prototype motors also had roller tappets and these are now listed in the parts pages for all earlier 8V's but are currently listed as 'Abolished'. I have no idea what this means????
VDG
Hotrodders will ponder if they could bolt on the 1400 parts to their 8V griso motors to make Super Griso's out of them. ~;
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Kevdog, I didn't know you where in the loop with Piaggio management, thats fascinating. Tell us how you came to be so, and if you already did, I apologize, but I missed it.
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Kevdog, I didn't know you where in the loop with Piaggio management, thats fascinating. Tell us how you came to be so, and if you already did, I apologize, but I missed it.
You missed the other discussion Chad? No need to explain then. If you think I had an influence then you're mistaken. You obviously seem to think my thoughts had weight. Just my thoughts, but you can think what you want. ;) The other chap seemed to have some link to Piaggio or Guzzi though at some point.
-K
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When I started this thread, I did suggest that those who wanted to see the latest pic's of the 1400 go to Guzzitech.com to do so. I thought that since Todd has his own forum, and he was the one who found the pics and put them there, that the gentlemanly thing I could do was try and send some folks there. But it seems not everyone was of the same line of thinking, Kev. :( ;)
Like Goose noted, I was just joking about the blown QUOTE tag in your reply to him...
...now that said, regarding your initial post, I have a pet peave when someone posts a link instead of just content (under the circumstances when they could have just posted said content). It's "just another click" some say, but clicks add up to bandwidth and sometimes you don't know the source of the link etc.
Anyway, your post just said there were pics out there, geeez, that's not just one click, that's a bunch.
As for Todd, love the guy, and have happily given him 4 figures of parts business in the last few years. Will be happy to give him more business in the future.
That said, Guzzitech forum has crashed more times in the years I've been going there than Jenn's little sister (you don't want to know how many cars she's killed) and though it's not a bad forum, I tend to not like the format or lack of traffic in certain areas so I don't use it much. No big deal.
Anyway - carry on - it's all good here...
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Hotrodders will ponder if they could bolt on the 1400 parts to their 8V griso motors to make Super Griso's out of them. ~;
or LeMans 1400 8V
:bike
~; ~; ~; ~;
NOT :+=copcar
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The question I'm pondering today is whether, or not, the Cal 14 will be available in the classic HD&M paint scheme!
Mmmm! :food
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There's something wrong with those dimensions. No way that is 285" especially if that seat height dimension is only 21". Unless missing or misreading something.
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C'mon, really? Look at how distorted that picture is. EVERYTHING in that shot is too long and low... unless you think that test rider is half man, half praying mantis. Some of you guys are going out of your way to find reasons to hate it. Well, haters gonna hate...
The bike is beautifully proportioned and should sell well (at least, for a Guzzi...).
(http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/download.html?id=4269&mode=view)
Hey, even Carlo Guzzi likes it. Look! He's looking down at it (from heaven?), smiling.
I like the proportions of this bike much more than my EV's. There's a lot better spacing between the floor boards and the rear pegs. When I ride two up on my current EV the passengers feet hit the back of my legs when I put my feet down, and I see a lot more space to the back pegs in the bottom pic. with the riders feet down.
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I am cautiously optimistic. I think we really need to see it in the flesh before passing judgment.
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There's something wrong with those dimensions. No way that is 285" especially if that seat height dimension is only 21". Unless missing or misreading something.
285 inches is 23.8 feet.
Sure. Yeah. The new Cal 14 is longer than a stretch limo...
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Lol I was actually wondering if he'd meant 285cm and mislabeled it, but it would still be too long...
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I think we discussed dimensions in one of the other twenty Cal 14 threads.
I still say that it's going to be 63/64 inch wheelbase, 31/32 degree steering head, 26 inch seat height, 600-lbs.
I'll bet I'm close.
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A Goldwing has a 66" wheelbase. Add a faring, bags & trunk and by golly you're close to the first Italian "tour-boat".
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A Goldwing has a 66" wheelbase. Add a faring, bags & trunk and by golly you're close to the first Italian "tour-boat".
Lots of big touring cruisers in the 62" - 64" range.
They're trying to build something that will sell to people that are buying 1/2 the bikes in the USA and a big chunk of the bikes in Europe and elsewhere.
I hope they do it, so they can afford to continue building other (more sporting) Guzzis that I will own and ride.
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Oh come on. At least 231Lg. :pop
;D
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Carl,
It's cool that you're playing with some kind of neat toy, but damn?!?!?!?!?!
The Griso has a 62-inch wheelbase. Do you really think the Cal 14 will be 58/59?
Whatever program you're messing with is wonky. Why not just get out a ruler and a protractor? Put them up to the screen and take some measurements. The front wheel is an 18. You can base your measurements off that.
It's what I've done with some of the photos.
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So, how 'bout someone with Photoshop overlay a Cal EV photo onto this Cal 14 photo?
Scale off the front wheels. They're both 18-inchers.
I don't have access to PS right now, or I'd cob something up.
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Okay guys, I messed up royal. I thought the front wheel was 17". Back to the damn program. Tomorrow.
17 is .94444 of 18.
59 is .9444 of 62.5
I'll be curious to see what your program generates when you plug in 18-inches for the front wheel.
:BEER:
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Lots of big touring cruisers in the 62" - 64" range.
They're trying to build something that will sell to people that are buying 1/2 the bikes in the USA and a big chunk of the bikes in Europe and elsewhere.
I hope they do it, so they can afford to continue building other (more sporting) Guzzis that I will own and ride.
Quite!
I also believe that an awful lot of the 'Old Guard' would actually LOVE a bike like this if they could just conquer their prejudices! Nobody is suggesting for a moment that eveyones 'Old Glories' should be sent to the crusher. Good lord! I really do still love all the older models that have been produced in my lifetime. Nor do I have a wish to own a 'Cruiser' of any sort, although something like a Cali, old or new, makes a lot of sense for comfortable touring. Alas I am also now well beyond true 'Sportsbike' territory, my old bod just can't do it any more. That doesn't mean though that I wouldn't love to see a 'Nuovo LeMans/Daytona'. Guzzi has a fantastic heritage of great 'Road Going Sports Bikes' I'll crawl seven miles over broken glass to stick matches in someone's turds to see that heritage continue.
VDG
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The biggest issue you guys are having with trying to figure out the size is you are using computer programs. This is a guzzi. You need to get out a slide rule. For any youngsters google slide rule.
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...
I'll crawl seven miles over broken glass to stick matches in someone's turds to see that heritage continue.
...
indeed!!!
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Carl I appreciate the efforts.
Our current guesses:
Rocker - 63/64 inch wheelbase, 26 inch seat height, 600-lbs wet.
Me (from previous thread) - 63" WB, 29" seat height, 650 lbs wet. (I might revise my seat height guess down to 27-28")
Comparatives:
Cal-Vin - 61.4" WB, 30.7" seat height, 616 lbs wet
FLD (Switchback) - 62.8" WB, 27.4" seat height, 718 lbs wet
Victory Judge - 64.8" WB, 25.9" seat height, ~700 lbs wet estimate
FLHR (Road King) - 63.5" WB, 28" seat height, 812 lbs wet
Victory CrossRoads - 65.7 WB, 26.25" seat height, ~800 lbs wet estimate
So maybe we're coloring our estimates with our wishes, but IF it comes out anything like Rocker or I are guesses it will be a little larger/longer/heavier than the current Tonti Calis, BUT it shouldn't be anywhere near the RK or Crossroads - perhaps putting it closer to the Dyna touring bike (FLD) or Judge.
I think we all hope it doesn't lose much or any cornering clearance.
Honestly, if it fits that bill, I think it will remain a unique and desirable alternative to the FULL BOAT tourers.
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That's a very crowded market, and the VAST majority of sales are Harleys. Other "wanna-bees" have a tough time cracking the market. How many Victorys do you see on the road, bearing in mind that they have now been in production for 14 years? It's a market that is primarily about the brand, not about the functionality of a "touring cruiser".
Guzzi seems like a brand that is struggling to find it's identity, its niche in the market. I can't see them being a full-line manufacturer, not in the short term at least, so they need to establish a core market and then expand from that core. Seemingly random shots at different market segments aren't going to do anything to help them establish that identity amongst non-owners.
I don't disagree that brand image plays a strong part in the sales for that segment.
That said, the TOURING sub-segment of the "cruiser" market is probably the MOST concerned about function.
To offer an answer to your question, I see Victorys about as often (maybe more often) than I see Guzzis in these parts.
That said, I don't necessarily agree that growing the Guzzi brand must be done through narrow focus on one core type of bike.
There's no reason the brand cannot be Italian air/oil cooled, bikes built around the traditional Guzzi engine layout offered in multiple market segments (sporting, sport touring, adventure touring, classic, touring etc).
I would offer up Triumph's success as an example.
They started with "modern" 3-cyl and 4-cyl water-cooled sporting bikes, but didn't really see an explosion of sales until they branched out into the Classics line (neo-Bonnie) all built around the classic air/oil cooled 2-cylinder.
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A Goldwing has a 66" wheelbase. Add a faring, bags & trunk and by golly you're close to the first Italian "tour-boat".
That's what I'm looking for to tow my camper. ;-T ;-T ;-T ;D ;D ;D ;-T ;-T ;-T
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I'll give the wheelbase estimation a shot. It is 66 inches, plus or minus 1.25 [edit:
1.5] inches. Please bear with me while I explain my method in some detail.
One thing to remember is the difference between the size of the rim where it seats and the diameter of the visible wheel from the side. It's about an inch difference. An 18 inch rim measures about 19 inches viewed from the side. (I just confirmed this rough rule on my Griso: [edit] the rim for its 17 inch front tire is about 18 inches viewed from the side.)
I'll use Carl's first photo, the one with red overlaid lines. Though Carl's shot is nicely scaled to make the front wheel round, this correction doesn't matter in estimating the wheelbase so long as all measurements are made along the horizontal line drawn through the axes.
One problem with the shot is that the front axle does not appear to be at the midpoint of the circle drawn around the rim, because of the angle at which the original photo was taken. So it would be better not to use the center of the axle for the calculations, but rather the center of the circle itself.
What size are the wheels? The front rim measures 54 mm on my laptop screen when blown up to the size I'll use, while the rear is only 50 mm. So I'd agree with the earlier judgement that the front is probably an 18 and the rear a 17 inch tire. This is the biggest, most important assumption of my calculation. Another important assumption is that the front wheel is pointed straight ahead, as it appears to me to be.
My method will be to measure the distance between the rear edge of the front wheel to the rear edge of the rear wheel, which is 186 mm on my screen. I will then account for the different diameters of the two visible wheel rims by adding 54/2 to the measurement to reach the center of the front wheel circle, and subtracting 50/2 to reach the center of the rear wheel circle. This gives a scaled wheel base of 186 + 27 - 25 = 188 mm.
Then on the assumption the front wheel is an 18 inch rim, I will assume the visible rim in the picture is approximately 19 inches in diameter. Since the visible front rim is 54 mm on my screen, the scale is found by the ratio of that distance to 19 inches. Converting the screen measurement to inches while making the calculation gives a scale of (54/25.4) / 19 = 0.1119.
Using this result, the estimated wheel base is 188 / 0.1119 = 1680 mm, or 66.1 inches. (!)
I will try to quantify how much error might be in my estimate. The measurements on the screen are good to +/- 0.5 mm, or about 1/4 inch of real length. Since a sum of inaccurate measurements is part of my method, the final error could be larger (or smaller). But the assumption that the visible front rim is 19 inches is only a rough guess. If it were between the values of 18.75 and 19.25, my estimated wheel base would fall between 64.75 and 67.25 [edit: 67.50] inches, also allowing for the +/- 0.5 mm inaccuracy of my measurements on the screen and the summing of terms.
There you have it: 66 inches. My method (along with my data, the photo itself and the measurements I took from it) is laid out for any criticisms that may come to mind, for which I would be grateful.
I thought about using my slide rule, but didn't. :)
Moto
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I can't wait to see the real specs. It will be fun to see witch one of you pencil necked, pointy headed nerds is closest to the fact. ;D
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Interesting Moto - and well presented.
I have my doubts, if only from a marketing/comparative product standpoint. It just doesn't make sense for Guzzi to go from the current Cali (arguably the shortest wheelbase/best handling "tourer" to the LONGEST wheelbase of the segment).
But time will tell...
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BTW... this one is only being offered in "California" to the likes of the Lakers. There is a shortened version for the rest of us mere mortals. :P
-Kevin
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Guzzi seems like a brand that is struggling to find it's identity, its niche in the market. I can't see them being a full-line manufacturer, not in the short term at least, so they need to establish a core market and then expand from that core. Seemingly random shots at different market segments aren't going to do anything to help them establish that identity amongst non-owners.
Random shot? The California 1400 is a random shot? Are you joking?
The Moto Guzzi touring bike is part of the brand's heritage, dating to the first V700, continuing with the Ambassador and the Eldorado, and extending through the various California series. These are not only fine bikes, but an excellent use of the big v-twin. With the California Vintage an obvious dead-end, what was Moto Guzzi to do? The California series represents Guzzi's core market, as well as a good 50 years of its motorcycling heritage.
In addition, with the American market polarized into two camps -- cruise/tour and sport/race-replica -- what else is Piaggio to do with Moto Guzzi? Guzzi has always been about touring bikes. Even their "sport" bikes aren't all that "sporty," at least by today's standards. With Aprilia in the Piaggio corporate fold, you will probably never see a true modern sportbike within the Guzzi brand. Aprilia is the brand that the factory races; Moto Guzzi pulled out of racing over 60 years ago. The sport/race replica bikes will come from Aprilia. So, the touring bikes (and "retro" bikes, like the V7) will come from Guzzi. It makes perfect sense. The California 1400 is right in line with Guzzi's identity, and the right vehicle to re-estsblish that identity among those who have forgotten that the brand even exists.
OK. You don't like the bike. We get that. But if you honestly think the new Cali is a "random shot," you obviously know nothing about the brand.
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It occurs to me that the front wheel could be a 17, and the rear a 16. If so, my previous estimate would become (18/19) * 66.1, or 62.6 inches, with the same degree of uncertainty as before..
It all depends on the size of the wheel. Two of you said the front wheel is 18 inches. What is the source of this information, please?
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It occurs to me that the front wheel could be a 17, and the rear a 16. If so, my previous estimate would become (18/19) * 66.1, or 62.6 inches, with the same degree of uncertainty as before..
Now THAT (62.6") sounds much more believable...
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Now THAT (62.6") sounds much more believable...
Yes. Garbage in, garbage out, is the rule.
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The Norge is a tourer, this is a cruiser.
The Norge is a "johnny come lately" addition to the long history of Moto Guzzis. It is indeed a fine touring bike. My California EV Touring is also a fine touring bike. I imagine more riders tour on California's than Norge's. The California 1400 seems to be a logical extension of the venerable California style line.
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The Norge is a sport tourer, NOT a "tourer" like the Harley dresser, Vic Crossroads or Vision, Goldwing or BMW KLT.
The Tonti Cali was arguably, at least in EV or Cal-Vin form on the lower (size wise) portion of that market segment.
It's likely that the Cal 14 is poised to penetrate that segment a little deeper.
Regardless, the Norge is a different segment occupied by the likes of the BMW RT, Kawi Concours, Honda St etc.
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Eh, I don't care for it. That's not meant to insult or incite, it's just my politely-stated opinion. Specifically I don't like the way the heads cut into the gas tank, the teenie exhaust outlets in the middle of those gigantic pipes, or the rear lights.
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If the image is distorted and the wheels are not round, then the measurement from axle to axle is also distorted. It looked to be about a 3% stretch on the horizontal dimension. Ensuring the wheel rim is as round as possible is the first step in making sure that the follow on measurements make sense. I also used the center of the circles overlaid on the wheels in the image to set the axle distance, not the axles in the image because parallax error creeps in. Error creeps in in miserably, dastardly ways anyway. You just do what you can to minimize it. I had to change software packages because the 1988 Macintosh version of the software was far superior to the 2012 PC version. I wish that wasn't so, it would simplify my life a bit. We're just going to have to wait for some actual figures from Moto Guzzi. :pop
No, I disagree about the round wheel bit. It doesn't matter for my calculation whether the wheels are oval shaped in the picture, since all my measurements are along a single line through the centers of the wheels. No vertical compression or stretching would affect any of my measurements along that line. If you want to think of the distortion as a horizontal stretching, that would affect all of my measurements proportionately, with no overall effect on the estimate of the wheelbase. But that's not much of a Guzzi issue!
I'm beginning to think the front wheel is a 17 inch since no one has come forward with a source for the 18 inch claims and since I couldn't find any relevant information on the web. So my revised wheelbase of about 62.6 inches based on the 17 inch wheel size is my preferred estimate barring further evidence. You assumed the wheel was 18 inch, but didn't allow for the greater diameter of the rim as seen from the side. Happily, our two calculations arrived at about the same value because you ignored the extra diameter of the rim as viewed from the side at the same time you chose to assume an 18 inch wheel diameter.
If it turns out the wheelbase is indeed in the 62 inch range, and the center of gravity is as low as it seems, I think this bike might make a dandy tourer for those tedious Great Plains transits and a fun bike in the mountains on the other side. We can see the saddlebag mounts. If it only has a Real Cruise Control, I might buy one! The passenger seat has got to be miles ahead of my Griso's.
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The Norge is a tourer, this is a cruiser.
LMAO!
So, my last trip on my Cali EV (3,000 miles), was I cruising? Touring? Back-roads scratching? Actually, some of each.
OK, ok, already. We get it. You don't like the bike. Now, please, stop the supidity. You're just embarrassing yourself with your comments.
To restate the obvious: The California 1400 follows a long tradition of Moto Guzzi touring motorcycles. It's not a random shot or a gimmick. It's Guzzi tradition, brought up-to-date.
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Two of you said the front wheel is 18 inches. What is the source of this information, please?
I'm beginning to think the front wheel is a 17 inch since no one has come forward with a source for the 18 inch claims and since I couldn't find any relevant information on the web.
It's Guzzis standard front wheel size on Tontis going back over 40 years.
It's a very common size on other cruisers and standards.
OK. Here you go: The front brakes are Brembo 320mm. Take the measurements off the front brake rotor and get back to us...
:beat_horse
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You're seeming a bit haughty for your new station, Rocker. ;)
But your argument holds up. I measure 73.5 mm for the wheel and 48.5 for the rotor (on my screen). Assuming the rotor is 320mm, the visible wheel rim should be (73.5/48.5) * 320 = 485mm, or 19.09 inches. That's what I'd expect for an 18-inch tire's rim, as I said above. I expect you're right about the brake disk and the tire size.
Unfortunately, that brings me back to my original estimate of a 66.1 inch wheelbase. Maybe that won't seem too big when I finally see the bike in person.
Moto
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Hopefully Guzzi will have a road-ready version on display at this falls motorcycle show.
Can't wait to see the actual specs.
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I had to change software packages because the 1988 Macintosh version of the software was far superior to the 2012 PC version. I wish that wasn't so, it would simplify my life a bit.
That`s no surprise ;D
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All of the Cal 14 goodness brought together in one convenient location...
Welcome to "The California 1400 Merged Threadfest"
(http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/pot.gif)
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So it seems I was correct. Same engine with twin plugs to combat surging at low RPM.Probably find that like the DD1200 one plug, most likely the outer, will drop out above a certain engine speed.
Finned covers are cosmetic to cover up the twin plug leads and probably plug-top coils. I'm betting that the nine will remain entirely oil cooled with air assist but running a massive cooler with fan assist a-la 8V Norge.
Also I was looking at the pics I took of the revised camboxes in the 2013 models. Y'know, the bosses around the tappets look awfully like they could be machined to take the roller lifters shown in the cutaway 1400 engine and now listed for all 8V's but noted as Abolished.
I reckon the 1400 wil be the first iteration to use the new design.
VDG
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Pete, you just finish some tech training?
If so, did they answer any if our chassis spec questions?
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Nah. That's in August and the chances of me being able to screw anything worthwhile out of any snake-hipped factory droid who may or may not be there is negligible.
Look, it's going to be a big, heavy, long wheelbase, 'Cruiser' style motorbike that will handle, go and stop just like what it is. I really can't see why people are getting their panties in a wad over what it's wheelbase is going to be???
It will appeal to some people and won't to others. My guess is it will open the Guzzi door to a lot of newcomers and those that are determined not to like it? Well, why would the marketing bods waste any time, money and effort trying to sell it to them? Even if they did buy one it would only be to experiment finding out how many real parts could be substituted with shit from the $2 shop and wallyworld and then they'd complain long and loud about it breaking.
I think it looks like a great use of crossover technology from the Aprilia bikes, that's a great thing. The Noale mob build a lovely engine.
Pete
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LOL...FWIW the search and speculation for and about specs is just a way to fill the information gap as we wait for the real thing.
Big, heavy, cruiser etc is all relative, there is no Guzzi, other than the pathetically powered smallblock that is remotely light by today's standards right, so the hand wringing is extra silly....
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I really can't see why people are getting their panties in a wad over what it's wheelbase is going to be???
You fellows in Oz must dress differently than we do.
Wheelbase is the key to overall scale in the pictures. Mass varies with the cube of scale, so the question of whether the front tire is 17 or 18 inches entails a difference of nearly 18 percent in weight. The relevant multiplicative factor is (19/18)^3 = 1.176. That should be about a 120 lb difference, say between 680 and 800 pounds. (1.176 * 680 = 800.)
Size matters. It's not obvious in the pictures, and it's worth considering as we daydream about this new bike. For some, it matters more than whether the tappets have rollers.
Moto
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Might as well enter the big sweepstakes! My entry:
wheel base = 66 inches
weight = 800 lbs
Moto
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Might as well enter the big sweepstakes! My entry:
wheel base = 66 inches
weight = 800 lbs
Moto
WOW - as heavy and even LONGER than a Harley or Victory dresser - MAN I HOPE YOU'RE WRONG...
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WOW - as heavy and even LONGER than a Harley or Victory dresser - MAN I HOPE YOU'RE WRONG...
I can hang with that plan if only it comes with the power my Valkyrie had. Dreamers dream...
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It's Guzzis standard front wheel size on Tontis going back over 40 years.
It's a very common size on other cruisers and standards.
I meant to question this yesterday.
I don't see what Tonti's have been using as remotely relevant on a new design.
And sure there are some of the competition that use 18" in front wheels (including the Goldwing or Victory Touring/Bagger models) but a BUNCH use other sizes like 17" (or even 16 or 21" wheels):
Harley
Touring bikes - Most use 130/80-17 or 130/90-16 (just the Street Glide & Road Glide Custom use 130/70-18)
Dynas - 100/90-19, 80/90-21, or 130/90-16 (just the Switchback uses a 130/70-18)
Softails - 16, 17 or 21
Sportsters - 16, 19 or 21 (just the Superlow and XRX use a 120/70-18)
BMW
K1600GT and R1200RT both use 17"
So I'm not sure how safe the assumption would be.
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Might as well enter the big sweepstakes! My entry:
wheel base = 66 inches
weight = 800 lbs
Moto
Wheel base= I don't care cause it's a cruiser
weight= 660 lbs
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I'm sticking with:
Wheelbase - 63"
Seat Heigth - 27-28"
Wet Weight - 650 lbs
But I'm an optimist
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WOW - as heavy and even LONGER than a Harley or Victory dresser - MAN I HOPE YOU'RE WRONG...
I hope I'm wrong too.
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I'm sticking with:
Wheelbase - 63"
Seat Heigth - 27-28"
Wet Weight - 650 lbs
But I'm an optimist
I'm more of the school of :
Wheelbase - Too long, trying to copy the HD-clone crowd.
Engine - Too big. Pushing a 40-year-old design too far in dispacement simply trying to "Keep Up With The HarleySakiYamaHons"
Wet Weight - 800 pounds - it's what people want. Bigger is Better, we need new blood and they want BIG!
I'm an optimist too ....
Lannis
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I have been watching this new "Cali 1400" since we saw the first pix about a year ago. I liked it then and the more I see it (as it evolves) the more I like it. I'ed trade my 03 EV for this new Cali in a New York minit'. It looks to me like what a Cali should be. If it performs like I think it will, it will be the fastest, best handling Cruiser out there. The look as we all know is a matter of taste.........and it tastes good to me ..........GabeEv
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The key is going to be how it handles.
After all, on paper the Griso should not handle as well as it does what with its' long wheel base (for a sport bike).
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Engine - Too big. Pushing a 40-year-old design too far in dispacement simply trying to "Keep Up With The HarleySakiYamaHons"
Hasn't Pete already dispelled that?
And though I'm not looking for a bike bigger than 1100-1200cc, at least 1400cc isn't like the stupid monster 1500-1800cc or gawd 2L+ motors that some are selling.
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Reality check! Question: What Guzzi model (in history) has been met with more jeers than cheers, that is, after it has actually been manufactured and sent to dealers? Answer: Not a single one to my knowledge. The new Cali will not be for everyone, but I predict it'll sell like the Griso and Stelvio. Anyone care to place a bet ;)
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Hasn't Pete already dispelled that?
He must not have, because I'm still of the same opinion - going after new markets is a good thing; doing it by trying to chase Hondavidsonukisaki and compete with them at the "Who's Got The Biggest One?" game isn't the way to do it.
Lannis
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He must not have, because I'm still of the same opinion - going after new markets is a good thing; doing it by trying to chase Hondavidsonukisaki and compete with them at the "Who's Got The Biggest One?" game isn't the way to do it.
Lannis
I think you completely missed my point - I'm not talking about playing the "who's got the biggest one" game or chasing other brands. Actually if anything they are spitting in the face of Harley, The big 4 Japanese Brands, Triumph AND BMW, all of whom seem to be of the opinion that 1200-1400cc is not enough for this market segment and have either pursued 1.6L or greater size motors or opted out of the segment (depending on whether you're talking "cruiser" or "tourer").
Anyway I was specifically responding to a portion of your opinion:
Engine - Too big. Pushing a 40-year-old design too far in dispacement simply trying to "Keep Up With The HarleySakiYamaHons"
Specifically where you seemed to have felt that they have somehow pushed a 40 y/o design too far, and I don't see how you can make that claim, especially since according to Pete, it's not a 40 y/o design.
Thing is Kevin they have done away with the 'Old Mill'. Apart from its outward similarity the 8V motor has nothing, zero, zilch, relationship to the old 'Pushrod' engine.
As far as I can make out the 1400 Cali motor is simply a bored out version of the current 8V mill. It is neither water cooled or principally 'Air Cooled' in the traditional sense. It is oil cooled with air assist. The high rocker covers aren't. They are simply cosmetic shrouds to cover the twin HT leads and possibly plug-top coils on the new twin plugged heads. Cutaways of the prototype motors also had roller tappets and these are now listed in the parts pages for all earlier 8V's but are currently listed as 'Abolished'. I have no idea what this means????
VDG
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He must not have, because I'm still of the same opinion - going after new markets is a good thing; doing it by trying to chase Hondavidsonukisaki and compete with them at the "Who's Got The Biggest One?" game isn't the way to do it.
Lannis
If it sells well, it is. And I believe it will sell better than any other model in the line-up. I believe that Piaggio / Moto Guzzi are doing a much better job assessing the market than past efforts. Of course, you "experts" may know better than them "eye-talians".
I am reminded of the outcry when Porsche decided to bring out an SUV. Blasphemy! A water-cooled engine. It will ruin Porsche. Hmm.. bailed them out of tough times to the point they nearly acquired VW. Of course the economy turned the tables and VW now owns Porsche along with Bugati. Porsche is wildly successful despite the "experts", and they don't have a single air-cooled vehicle. It appears that all you have to do is own one to become an expert.
I am sure the "experts" will bemoan the change from a 1400 mill to a water cooled 1600 years from now.
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I am willing to believe Miguel Galuzzi when he said he understands what Moto Guzzi is all about. Assuming that's true, the new California will go, stop, and turn as a Guzzi should. Therefore, I do not believe that the California 1400 will be longer than any Victory or weigh more than a Road King. IMO, that's just crazy talk.
My prediction is that the new California 1400 will be marginally longer, lower, and heavier than the California Vintage, while being significantly more powerful AND better handling.
As a point of reference, here are the specifications for the CalVin:
Frame: Detachable tubular duplex cradle in special high-strength steel
Wheelbase: 61.4” (1,560 mm)
Trail: 4.5” (116 mm)
Rake: 29 °
Front suspension: Marzocchi hydraulic telescopic fork, Ø 45 mm, adjustable separately
Front wheel travel: 5.5” (140 mm)
Rear suspension: swing arm with 2 hydraulic shock absorbers, preload adjustable
Rear wheel travel: 3.8” (96 mm)
Braking system: Integral braking system, with proportioning and delay valve
Front brake: double Brembo Serie Oro stainless steel floating disc, Ø 320 mm, 4 piston calipers
Rear brake: single Brembo stainless steel floating disc, Ø 282 mm, 2 piston calipers
Wheels: Behr spoked steel rims
Front rim: 2.50” x 18”
Rear rim: 3.50” x 17”
Front tyre: 110/90 VB18"
Rear tyre: 140/70 VB17"
Length: 93.7” (2,380 mm)
Width: 32.1” (815 mm)
Height: 54.7” (1,390 mm)
Seat height: 30.7” (780 mm)
Ground clearance: 7.5” (190 mm)
Handlebar height: 41.3” (1,050 mm)
Front footboard height: 12.8” (326 mm)
Rear footboard height: 15.1” (385 mm)
Dry weight: 580 lbs (263 kg)
Fuel tank capacity: 5 gallons (19 liters)
Reserve: 1 gallon (4 liters)
So, my predictions for the California 1400 in key areas are as follows:
Wheelbase: 63.4"
Seat Height: 29"
Weight (dry/wet): 600 / 640 lbs.
Power (measured at the crank): 115 bhp @ 6900 rpm and maximum torque of 120 Nm @ 5800
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If it sells well, it is. And I believe it will sell better than any other model in the line-up. I believe that Piaggio / Moto Guzzi are doing a much better job assessing the market than past efforts. Of course, you "experts" may know better than them "eye-talians".
Gary -
So how come you're not in this category of so-called "experts" too (which must be pronounced with a virtual sneer)? :o
1) You believe it will sell better than any other model in the line-up.
2) You believe that Piaggio/Moto Guzzi are doing a much better job assessing the market.
3) Your credentials are identical to mine, and you're posting on the same board.
If I disagree with your opinion, why am I a so-called "Expert" putting down "eye-talians", and you're NOT one of these experts despite having a very explicit and strongly-stated opinion? Eh? Eh? ???
Lannis
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Gary -
So how come you're not in this category of so-called "experts" too (which must be pronounced with a virtual sneer)? :o
1) You believe it will sell better than any other model in the line-up.
2) You believe that Piaggio/Moto Guzzi are doing a much better job assessing the market.
3) Your credentials are identical to mine, and you're posting on the same board.
If I disagree with your opinion, why am I a so-called "Expert" putting down "eye-talians", and you're NOT one of these experts despite having a very explicit and strongly-stated opinion? Eh? Eh? ???
Lannis
Wow, I have been roundly chastised. You are correct, I did proffer an opinion. I do believe that it will sell very well. That is an opinion. I do believe that P / MG are doing a much better job assessing the market. That's not an opinion. MG's new models have met with good success.
I didn't intend for my opinion to be received as "explicit and strongly stated", but it is hard to add nuances that occur when speaking to such brief written responses. My response was more of the "tongue in cheek" variety. My main point, and it really had nothing to do with your post, was the parallel between Porsche, a marque with a wildly enthusiast following, and MG, with a similarly enthusiastic following.
Nothing personal intended.
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Wow, I have been roundly chastised. You are correct, I did proffer an opinion. I do believe that it will sell very well. That is an opinion. I do believe that P / MG are doing a much better job assessing the market. That's not an opinion. MG's new models have met with good success.
I didn't intend for my opinion to be received as "explicit and strongly stated", but it is hard to add nuances that occur when speaking to such brief written responses. My response was more of the "tongue in cheek" variety. My main point, and it really had nothing to do with your post, was the parallel between Porsche, a marque with a wildly enthusiast following, and MG, with a similarly enthusiastic following.
Nothing personal intended.
Well, I don't know about "roundly", but I appreciate the explanation. I think the tone of "eye-talians" was what got my african up, as if I didn't believe those dummies could come up with a good plan just because they're Italian. I wouldn't be trusting my life to their bikes every day if I didn't think they had something on the ball.
The good thing about the differing opinions here is that it's not like "Who would have won in a match between Joe Louis and Muhammed Ali?" which will never have an answer. We'll KNOW the answer to this one in a few years ... and these messages last a loooong time .... ;-T :D
Lannis
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Ali would have kicked his ass.
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No way! :beat_horse
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Sorry, just felt like trolling for a second. :)
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In motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOv7Qzzp6Pc&feature=player_embedded#
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In motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOv7Qzzp6Pc&feature=player_embedded#
Very cool to have a "Tail of the Dragon" right next to the assembly plant!
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In motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOv7Qzzp6Pc&feature=player_embedded#
Nice find!
Here are the two best still screen shots I could get from the video of the bike being ridden:
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/youcanrunnaked/cali1400.png)
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/youcanrunnaked/cali1400b.png)
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I am willing to believe Miguel Galuzzi when he said he understands what Moto Guzzi is all about. Assuming that's true, the new California will go, stop, and turn as a Guzzi should. Therefore, I do not believe that the California 1400 will be longer than any Victory or weigh more than a Road King. IMO, that's just crazy talk.
My prediction is that the new California 1400 will be marginally longer, lower, and heavier than the California Vintage, while being significantly more powerful AND better handling.
As a point of reference, here are the specifications for the CalVin:
Frame: Detachable tubular duplex cradle in special high-strength steel
Wheelbase: 61.4” (1,560 mm)
Trail: 4.5” (116 mm)
Rake: 29 °
Front suspension: Marzocchi hydraulic telescopic fork, Ø 45 mm, adjustable separately
Front wheel travel: 5.5” (140 mm)
Rear suspension: swing arm with 2 hydraulic shock absorbers, preload adjustable
Rear wheel travel: 3.8” (96 mm)
Braking system: Integral braking system, with proportioning and delay valve
Front brake: double Brembo Serie Oro stainless steel floating disc, Ø 320 mm, 4 piston calipers
Rear brake: single Brembo stainless steel floating disc, Ø 282 mm, 2 piston calipers
Wheels: Behr spoked steel rims
Front rim: 2.50” x 18”
Rear rim: 3.50” x 17”
Front tyre: 110/90 VB18"
Rear tyre: 140/70 VB17"
Length: 93.7” (2,380 mm)
Width: 32.1” (815 mm)
Height: 54.7” (1,390 mm)
Seat height: 30.7” (780 mm)
Ground clearance: 7.5” (190 mm)
Handlebar height: 41.3” (1,050 mm)
Front footboard height: 12.8” (326 mm)
Rear footboard height: 15.1” (385 mm)
Dry weight: 580 lbs (263 kg)
Fuel tank capacity: 5 gallons (19 liters)
Reserve: 1 gallon (4 liters)
So, my predictions for the California 1400 in key areas are as follows:
Wheelbase: 63.4"
Seat Height: 29"
Weight (dry/wet): 600 / 640 lbs.
Power (measured at the crank): 115 bhp @ 6900 rpm and maximum torque of 120 Nm @ 5800
According to the Cycle World specs from a 2008 "Bagger" feature, the wet weight of a Vintage is 629 lbs. This means that Guzzi was probably exaggerating how light this bike is by 15 lbs, or so. Its still lighter than the competition, though. I'm guessing the 1400 will be also...
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I think it's pretty cool looking. I do wonder if the increase in engine size is going to make for baked shins in town. I also wonder if the design envelope is being exceeded? Kind of like Triumph's parallel twins; the 750's of the 70's are what everyone remembers but for my money, the 500 was the perfect size for that engine and it's best iteration in many ways IMHO.
The bike does look pretty good going down the road, judging by that brief video. I think everyone is going to be shocked by the MSRP. I'd be willing to bet it's 20k.
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I think everyone is going to be shocked by the MSRP. I'd be willing to bet it's 20k.
Griso lowered to $12.5k
Stelvio a bargin at $16k
I'll put the base model at around $17-18k
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I also wonder if the design envelope is being exceeded? Kind of like Triumph's parallel twins; the 750's of the 70's are what everyone remembers but for my money, the 500 was the perfect size for that engine and it's best iteration in many ways IMHO.
If you take (waste?) the time to go through all 2000+ postings on this subject, you'll find my very similar assessment using the BMW airhead and Norton twin as precedent, and speculating on the viability of taking an engine configuration that worked at 700 cc going to 1400c cc ....
... which led to a bit of a savaging for (A) daring to question the Designers and (B) Implying that there Any Such Thing as "Too Big" and (C) Conspiring to Stifle New Things at The Company.
I still think it's going to be a techical loser and they'll wish they hadn't done it ....
Lannis
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Lannis,
By that same logic, then the current 1200 8v Stelvio, Griso, Breva Sport and Norge all have a 700cc engine simply bored out to a 1200cc. That's absolutely not true. Yes, they're both Moto Guzzi 90 degree V-Twins but they're very different engines. So many on this forum worried the current 1200 8v engine was going beyond the original design parameters. I believe the current 1200 8v or this 1400 8v have a lot more design changes than simply boring out the original design. Similar in how different the Harley-Davidson Knucklehead engine is to their current 103.
Regarding this video, pretty hard to really tell much with my aging eyes. It's hard to actually see much. Even stopping the video shows poor resolution.
YMMV,
Mark
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Mark, you're likely wasting your breath. Pete already documented that the 8V big blocks have little or nothing in common with the 2V motors other than obvious cylinder layout. Lannis refuses to admit that the fact of the redesign basically blows his simile out of the water. But we're rehashing...
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Mark, you're likely wasting your breath. Pete already documented that the 8V big blocks have little or nothing in common with the 2V motors other than obvious cylinder layout. Lannis refuses to admit that the fact of the redesign basically blows his simile out of the water. But we're rehashing...
Cylinder layout is enough for me. There's no universal physical law that says that what works for one capacity will work as successfully when the power and capacity is doubled. All I'm saying is that Guzzi is not creating a 1400cc bike because they think it's a great application of their design. They're doing it because everyone else is doing it.
And to rehash again ... Time will tell. This thread will still be available in 3 or 4 years!
Lannis
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"They're doing it because everyone else is doing it."
??? ??? ???
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Cylinder layout is enough for me. There's no universal physical law that says that what works for one capacity will work as successfully when the power and capacity is doubled. All I'm saying is that Guzzi is not creating a 1400cc bike because they think it's a great application of their design. They're doing it because everyone else is doing it.
And to rehash again ... Time will tell. This thread will still be available in 3 or 4 years!
Lannis
But the capacity hasn't been doubled.for all practical purposes, since the motor was a new design as a 1200cc 8V, this only represents an increase of 200cc. And but so much because everyone is doing it, but because everyone is BUYING it.
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"They're doing it because everyone else is doing it."
??? ??? ???
Making massive, oversize, overweight motorcycles.
Remember, I come from a riding generation that considered a 350 or 450 a standard bike, and a 650 or 750 a big bike .... it probably influences my opinion. I'll ride my Stelvio till the wheels fall off, but I'll never buy another bike over 500 wet pounds again .....
Lannis
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If Piaggio/Moto Guzzi wanted to follow what "everyone else" is doing, they'd be releasing a 1700cc or so. Every major brand has out done a 1700 by a decent margin anyway. But the best selling cruisers and tourers on the market are from Harley-Davidson. Their current 'standard' V-Twin is a 103cu.in (1687cc). So, if Piaggio/Moto Guzzi is putting out a middleweight 1400cc simply "because everyone else" is, they missed the mark before it ever left the design studio.
I trust they're putting out this middleweight 1400cc for at least a couple of reasons.
1. It should have more Hp and Torque than most the newer 1300's from Japan with a good power to weight ratio.
2. Going much bigger is simply not in the European mindset with their license tiers and taxes paid by the engine size. For 90% of the roads and highway systems in Europe a 750cc is plenty. For our 1000's of miles of straight and relatively flat highways, not so much.
Personally I beleive it will compare well against most other 1300cc to 1900cc cruisers and weekend tourers. Maybe they also have a full dress option they're working on as well for the touring crowd. With hard bags, an optional trunk and a couple of windshield options. If it has torque aplenty and enough Hp to entertain the masses, it should do well. That's if Piaggio can correctly time its release for the American market with enough marketing to have people scanning their website for a dealer.
Time will tell,
Mark
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I think it's pretty cool looking. I do wonder if the increase in engine size is going to make for baked shins in town. I also wonder if the design envelope is being exceeded? Kind of like Triumph's parallel twins; the 750's of the 70's are what everyone remembers but for my money, the 500 was the perfect size for that engine and it's best iteration in many ways IMHO.
The bike does look pretty good going down the road, judging by that brief video. I think everyone is going to be shocked by the MSRP. I'd be willing to bet it's 20k.
I don't what the limitation for size is regarding physical dimensions of the crankcases, but a 90 degree V Twin is inherently balanced whereas the parallel twin runs into the shakes.
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Not over 500 wet, so what will you get? Especially if you want a comfrotable touring, sport touring or dual purpose type bike.
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Remember, I come from a riding generation that considered a 350 or 450 a standard bike, and a 650 or 750 a big bike .... it probably influences my opinion. I'll ride my Stelvio till the wheels fall off, but I'll never buy another bike over 500 wet pounds again .....
Lannis
[/quote]
That (your) generation simply didn't have the super highways and elevated speeds we have today. This last weekend my wife and I were returning to Chicago from Indiana via IN-49 North to US-90/94. The posted speed limit is 70mph in Indiana. We were 2-up on the Valkyrie going 80-90mph and getting passed by 70% of the vehicles on the highway. Not the big heavy American V8 sleds from generations gone by. We were getting getting passed by all types of vehicles (big cars/small cars/trucks/semis). We crossed into IL and the speed limit went down to 55mph. No change in the traffic speed or pattern at all. In a work zone with a 45mph posted speed limit, again, no change to the speed and flow of the traffic. Sorry, but most 750 standards, cruisers and tourers simply don't have the power to be much more than a speed bump on most of todays multi lane highways. Not so for the sport bikes for sure.
Don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoy those elevated speeds and that traffic flow. But I wouldn't take most 350's, 450's, 600's and 750's anywhere near the highway and tollway systems around here.
All the best,
Mark
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Making massive, oversize, overweight motorcycles.
Lannis
Are you talking about the Cali 1400? Did you watch the video (or even look at the screen shots)? The bike doesn't look massive to me. In fact, for a contemporary cruiser, it looks like it will be at the small end of the scale.
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Are you talking about the Cali 1400? Did you watch the video (or even look at the screen shots)? The bike doesn't look massive to me. In fact, for a contemporary cruiser, it looks like it will be at the small end of the scale.
What does MY looking at the screen shots have to do with how massive the bike looks to YOU? ??? :)
Contemporary? That's the issue ....
Lannis
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Remember, I come from a riding generation that considered a 350 or 450 a standard bike, and a 650 or 750 a big bike .... it probably influences my opinion. I'll ride my Stelvio till the wheels fall off, but I'll never buy another bike over 500 wet pounds again .....
Lannis
That (your) generation simply didn't have the super highways and elevated speeds we have today.
Mark
What you mean "We", paleface? :D
I've probably got 450,000 miles on bikes (yes, I know, Goose - you have more, we've been here before) and have somehow managed to spend ZERO time two-up at 90 MPH on a crowded expressway. That's a good way to die, doing much of that; a piece of muffler, a swerving car, a gator, a blown tire, and you're dead, quick. I can go anywhere I want any time I want and not have to do that.
I expect that Fay and I will spend hundreds of thousands of more miles over the next however many years (God willing and the creeks don't rise), and see large amounts of the USA and Europe, without going 90 MPH two-up on a crowded freeway, requiring a 700 pound 130 HP bike with 100 lb-ft of torque. The Stelvio would EASILY do that if I wanted to, anyhow .... without chasing Rocket IIIs to 2300 cc just because people want to buy "bigger" ...
Lannis
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OH, Lannis, you just don't know when to pull back and let it ride.
I agree with you, on your obvious assertion that time will tell, it always does. Lets revisit this six months after the 1400 debuts in the US market and see how it is doing.
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OH, Lannis, you just don't know when to pull back and let it ride.
I agree with you, on your obvious assertion that time will tell, it always does. Lets revisit this six months after the 1400 debuts in the US market and see how it is doing.
How come I'M the one taking the lick for not "knowing when to let it ride"? There's 6 other people in the last 10 or so posts have the same problem, looks like to me .... and two of them are YOU! :D :D
But that's an old, played story .... Gettin' past my bedtime anyhow; I'm taking my little bitty 600cc pistons and turning in ... ;-T
Lannis
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Two of them are me? You lost me, but I agree, it's getting late, time to dream of 400Lb back road burners!
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What does MY looking at the screen shots have to do with how massive the bike looks to YOU? ??? :)
Lannis
Sorry if that was less than clear. Here's what I mean:
Unless the test rider is an eight-foot-tall giant,
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/youcanrunnaked/cali1400.png)
this is NOT a "massive" bike.
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YCRN,
You're 100% right. I'm hoping the rider in the video is at least 6'4". His knees appear to be higher than his butt on the seat. That doesn't look like a very comfortable riding position to me. Hopefully I'm wrong as I really want this to be a good 2-up bike for the long haul. The original bad picture of the white Cali 1400 from a Piaggio meeting last year gave me hope. The more I see these terrible photos and now this suspect video the more it seems like it's not much, if any, larger than my old Bassa. That would be a shame as it wouldn't even be a consideration for me at that point.
Lannis,
I wrote that at 80-90mph we were getting past by 70% of the traffic. I was only keeping up with the right lane riders as my wife seriously doesn't like those speeds. Anything less and we would have been run off the road or simply run over.
All the best,
Mark
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I also wonder if the design envelope is being exceeded?
The actual design was created as a 1200, and was meant from the beginning to be further enlarged.
The old design was bored out to 1420cc and 160 hp without problems, with the Big Bore engine.
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Wow a 1400 is a middleweight and 750s are doorstops unusable on the highways. I know i haven't ridden in a few weeks, but when did all this happen
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Wow a 1400 is a middleweight and 750s are doorstops unusable on the highways. I know i haven't ridden in a few weeks, but when did all this happen
It happened when the Madison Avenue Marketing boys finally won the battle they've been fighting since 1973 ...... a mournful event, for sure ....
"Don't buy that pathetic little motorcycle; that's not for a REAL man like you! You need CUBIC INCHES, muscle, SOUND, fury, ground-pounding thunder! What do you want to be, a scooter rider? You want to look like a Dewey on your pitiful 750? No, sir, mister, the Alpha male rides a 1400cc, 1600cc, 2000cc ... you think any woman is going to want a man with less than 120 inches? It's only money, what's a few $300 tires and 30 MPG? you can't take it with you, so get something BIG between those legs and go out and make your mark!"
I know those guys, they're relentless, and they've got us now ...
Lannis
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at least some of us, but i'm still liking the 750 shiver or 800 tigers, for a 400lb range bike. That's why i really liked buells, decent power and light weight.
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It happened when the Madison Avenue Marketing boys finally won the battle they've been fighting since 1973 ...... a mournful event, for sure ....
"Don't buy that pathetic little motorcycle; that's not for a REAL man like you! You need CUBIC INCHES, muscle, SOUND, fury, ground-pounding thunder! What do you want to be, a scooter rider? You want to look like a Dewey on your pitiful 750? No, sir, mister, the Alpha male rides a 1400cc, 1600cc, 2000cc ... you think any woman is going to want a man with less than 120 inches? It's only money, what's a few $300 tires and 30 MPG? you can't take it with you, so get something BIG between those legs and go out and make your mark!"
I know those guys, they're relentless, and they've got us now ...
Lannis
I'm glad I'm secure in my manhood and can enjoy riding the V7 Classic out in public, during daylight hours even... :D
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Jim,
Compare the not yet released California 1400 to most successful cruisers and tourers on the market, Harley-Davidson. Someone mentioned Guzzi only increased the engine size to keep up with the market of the marketing of bigger is better. Since just about all the major manufacturers make cruisers and tourers much larger than 1400, I did indeed call the new Cali a middleweight. The existing (former) 1064cc Tonti frames certainly bring up the botttom of the middleweight market IMHO. Again, not that I have a problem with that, it's just reality. So the new Cali 1400 seems firmly planted in the middleweight devision by any reasonable engine displacement measure. I'm not however saying it's too small as I'm very anxious to see and ride one. I also said I think the Cali 1400 will compare very well against the many 1300cc to 1900cc cruisers and tourers available.
Heck, I'd likely trade someone my beautiful white 2009 Griso 8v for a 2009 white California Vintage. Imagine that, 'downsizing' the size of my Guzzi. ;)
As for the 750, I wouldn't have put myself 2-up on the Tollway last Sunday on one. Certainly not intentionally or for any length of time. Way too dangerous from my perspective as we simply would have been run off the road. To much diescrepency in speed is a very bad thing on the highways. And it's not just that stretch of I-94, on many sections of many highways traffic averages well above the posted speed.
All the best,
Mark
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Compare the not yet released California 1400 to most successful cruisers and tourers on the market, Harley-Davidson.
Mark
THAT'S the core problem, right there. I ride Guzzis because I want to ride something that is NOT "compared to", chasing, emulating or otherwise using Harley Davidson as a role model, no matter how successful they are. And that's what I'm afraid they're doing. And MY OPINION is that it's not going to work for them.
Lannis
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1400 will not sell to the "size buyers". Of course, they're probably not potential Guzzi customers, anyway.
From a strictly marketing standpoint, Guzzi should've probably gone at least 1600, if not 1800, if they were wanting to capture the ignorant, non-riding, bar-hopping displacement crowd.
The bike will probably kick the ass of any cruiser currently built, as far as performance and handling go. It's going to take a savvy buyer to recognise that. A buyer who understands performance rather than CCs or cubic inches.
Of course, all Guzzi has to do is pick up a couple thousand extra sales with this bike and it will be a huge success for them...
I'm sure that's what they're aiming for. They're not trying to conquer the market, just carve out a few sales for Guzzi.
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Mark, I don't quite understand why you would want a Vintage, other than it would look cool in the garage. I in no way mean that as a put down to the Vintage, I like the bike a lot, but it doesn't seem to fit your criteria.
You have stated more than once that although you really liked your Bassa's, they where under powered. So coming off a Val and 8v Griso how is it you think the Vintage will be up to the task? It's essentially no bigger, and marginally more powerful than the Bassa, how is that going to work for you?
Seems like you might want to go with a late model Road King, or wait a few more months and get a good look at the nevo Cal. Just my thoughts.
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Rocker59,
I agree with you completely, except that if Piaggio sells 500 to 750 Cali 1400's it'll be a huge sucess. But the 2nd and 3rd versions will likely have an even larger engine. Anyone in the 'know' knows you more than a big engine. Sadly, most riders and non-riders aren't really in the know.
All the best,
Mark
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:+1
1400 will not sell to the "size buyers". Of course, they're probably not potential Guzzi customers, anyway.
From a strictly marketing standpoint, Guzzi should've probably gone at least 1600, if not 1800, if they were wanting to capture the ignorant, non-riding, bar-hopping displacement crowd.
The bike will probably kick the ass of any cruiser currently built, as far as performance and handling go. It's going to take a savvy buyer to recognise that. A buyer who understands performance rather than CCs or cubic inches.
Of course, all Guzzi has to do is pick up a couple thousand extra sales with this bike and it will be a huge success for them...
I'm sure that's what they're aiming for. They're not trying to conquer the market, just carve out a few sales for Guzzi.
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Chad,
The Valkyrie will remain the staple of my motorcycle riding diet for the forseeable future. I do really enjoy it and it's fantastic 1-up or 2-up. But if I had the money, I'd sell or trade both the Valkyrie and the Griso and get a Victory Cross Country Tour a Harley Road Glide Ultra or something similar. The Valkyrie also isn't worth a whole lot as a trade in or selling outright. It's a 1999 and most anyone except those who know Valkyries don't want such an 'old' motorcycle with 6 carbs.
I favor the 2009 white CalVin as it looks great and would also make good 1-up ride. 2-up, for me, not so much. Certainly not as long as I have the big Valkyrie. A CalVin would certainly be down on power but frankly, I need to slow my speed down. That's one of the reasons I'd like to sell or trade the Griso 8v. Without constant watch of the speedo, I seem to be riding in the bikes sweet spot by sound, engine feedback etc. Which is, as you know, typically well above the posted speed limits. The 8v engine does satisfy in a similar way as my old Centauro though. Just much more refined so it's easier to be going faster on the Griso than you think. On the Centauro, you know darn well when you're going 80+. On the Griso 8v, for me anyway, it's just not that obvious. Maybe partly because it's so much fun I don't really want to be watching the speedo.
I would be $1,000's ahead if I had never traded away my Bassa in the first place. At the time, most of my riding was done solo. Now, most of my riding is with other CMA or BFC members so conditions are more suitable for a Bassa or a CalVin. My wife is also now involved in the CMA and the BFC. If she's on her Sporty, a Bassa or CalVin for me would be great. If she's riding with me, the Valkyrie is the only option.
Thanks for asking,
Mark
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Thanks for the explanation. :)
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A CalVin would certainly be down on power but frankly, I need to slow my speed down.
Aren't you going to get run over if you do that? I've heard that those Chicago-area freeways are fierce. :D
All right, all right, I'll stop ...... :beat_horse ;)
Lannis
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Aren't you going to get run over if you do that? I've heard that those Chicago-area freeways are fierce. :D
All right, all right, I'll stop ...... :beat_horse ;)
Lannis
Much more orderly than anything in the DC metro!
I'd take Chicago traffic any day over anything on the East Coast!
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Much more orderly than anything in the DC metro!
I'd take Chicago traffic any day over anything on the East Coast!
My observation is that everyone thinks that their traffic is the worst. Atlanta guys will swear that I85/75/285 makes the DC Beltway look like a cakewalk, Houston guys compare their traffic to Los Angeles' disadvantage, Chicago guys think that Boston is a walk in the park ... and Londoners will say that the M25 is a nightmare on earth, not to be compared with anything else.
I just adjust my attitude and speed to whatever's going on, go with it, and (IF I don't like it) don't go that way again if I can avoid it. "Avoiding It" generally means living somewhere else, though.
Lannis
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heck mark i'm just having fun with you. i was going to recommend 12/20 through the dunes as a very nice alternative to Indiana craziness.
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My observation is that everyone thinks that their traffic is the worst. Atlanta guys will swear that I85/75/285 makes the DC Beltway look like a cakewalk, Houston guys compare their traffic to Los Angeles' disadvantage, Chicago guys think that Boston is a walk in the park ... and Londoners will say that the M25 is a nightmare on earth, not to be compared with anything else.
I just adjust my attitude and speed to whatever's going on, go with it, and (IF I don't like it) don't go that way again if I can avoid it. "Avoiding It" generally means living somewhere else, though.
Lannis
I don't mind Houston and Austin. DFW, on the other hand ALWAYS has some road-blocking accident when I'm trying to get through there. Unless it's 5am.
Chicago and St Louis are pretty orderly, if you're an assertive driver.
Northern Virginia is full of road-raging maniacs. A bunch of angry folks in Birmingham, too, for some reason...
Denver's I-25 can be a pain, but otherwise it's not too bad...
Atlanta just has a shite-load of traffic and it takes forever to get around the place when trying to get over to Savannah.
I've not been to SoCal since I was a kid, but I can imagine that it would wear me out.
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My observation is that everyone thinks that their traffic is the worst. Atlanta guys will swear that I85/75/285 makes the DC Beltway look like a cakewalk, Houston guys compare their traffic to Los Angeles' disadvantage, Chicago guys think that Boston is a walk in the park ... and Londoners will say that the M25 is a nightmare on earth, not to be compared with anything else.
I just adjust my attitude and speed to whatever's going on, go with it, and (IF I don't like it) don't go that way again if I can avoid it. "Avoiding It" generally means living somewhere else, though.
Lannis
Good lord, I agree with Lannis again! Although if I recall the so called objective experts rank Chicago traffic in the top 3 worst of the country.
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When I questioned whether the design envelope was being exceeded, I had a few things on my mind. The primary one being the 8 valve's well documented need for the finest synthetic oil. The reason for that is the amount of heat the engine generates. A 15% increase in volume(1200cc's to 1400cc's) doesn't equate to a 15% increase in surface area on the piston and cylinder walls. I've forgotten my high school geometry but it's not a linear relationship. The surface area increase is what bumps the heat factor. That's also why multi cylindered, small capacity engines can make more power than larger, single cylinder engines(sweeping generalization I know, but based in physics).
It is impossible to make power without heat. A Harley 80CI engine makes 60hp on a good day. The Guzzi 1400cc engine spec has been quoted many times in various outlets as being in the 100hp range. The generally accepted hot rodding formula for big twins over the last 50 years has been that for every cubic inch, you should not exceed 1 hp if you want longevity. Again, the need to shed heat is the limiting factor in making reliable power from any air-cooled engine.
It all leads me to think there will be fairly sophisticated timing logic programmed into the ECU, along with a giant oil cooler with fan assist(already noted in previous posts). Pushing the boundaries in this way has historically blunted the flexibility of engines. They've been more, "peaky" and operated under a more limited performance envelope.
Just my .02. As an aside, the bike looks to be about halfway between a CalVin and a Fatboy in size. I think sub-700lbs(but not by much) and around a 63-4inch wheelbase would be reasonable assumptions.
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Now that the daily traffic report is over....
My recent thoughts on the Cal 1400. it's no use mourning the demise of the current Tonti/Cal. Guzzi spent decades trying to expand that platform and I think it's safe to say that the customer base for that product line was about as big as it was going to get. Tweaking motors and styling may have made it a little better, but would not make a substantial difference. No matter how much current owners may love them, Guzzi has made the decision to move on with or without you. Same for the Spine frame. It ain't coming back so get over it.
They are after a new market now. Perhaps they see how well the Diavel is doing for Ducati or how well the Vision is doing for Victory. I don't know but one thing is clear is they are headed in a new direction. Bigger motors, different styling. Hopefully the handling will still be a priority but we'll just have to wait to ride one of these things to see. I personally have never had an inclination to want a 700lb motorcycle, but it's obvious that many people do. If that is what the Cal 1400 ends up being so be it. Maybe if I ride one, I'll love it. Maybe not. I know I won't buy it just cause it's a Guzzi. If it doesn't fill my needs, I'll look elsewhere.
Regardless of whether or not I like it, I hope it sells well and allows Guzzi to continue to do more new models. Personally I like bold designs and I think the new Cal is pretty bold. Some will love it, some will hate it, but very few will not have an opinion, and to me that is a good thing. Maybe after the Cal release, a new sport bike will come, or perhaps a new small block or something completely different. Looking forward to seeing whatever comes next.
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Spine frame. It ain't coming back so get over it.
But I don't want to!!!
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If you want to see where the extra 200cc's are coming from?
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4129/5206160280_46fc65ca4c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/5206160280/)
The spigots on the 1200 barrels tell the story! They're about 12mm thick. The 1400 motor is simply going to be an over bored version of the same piece of kit with twin plugged heads to combat combustion surging issues. Betcha.
VDG
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I suffer from several mental short comings, (but I don't let that stop me!) what are the "spigots on the 1200 barrel"?
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I suffer from several mental short comings, (but I don't let that stop me!) what are the "spigots on the 1200 barrel"?
Those "sleeves" that are sticking up.
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My observation is that everyone thinks that their traffic is the worst. Atlanta guys will swear that I85/75/285 makes the DC Beltway look like a cakewalk, Houston guys compare their traffic to Los Angeles' disadvantage, Chicago guys think that Boston is a walk in the park ... and Londoners will say that the M25 is a nightmare on earth, not to be compared with anything else.
I just adjust my attitude and speed to whatever's going on, go with it, and (IF I don't like it) don't go that way again if I can avoid it. "Avoiding It" generally means living somewhere else, though.
Lannis
I grew on the east coast in CT. I frequented NY and Boston quite a lot. The traffic sucked. Then I moved to Cali. LA traffic is easily way worse than anything on the east coast I've dealt with.... Then I moved to Chicago. The traffic isn't worse than LA but the road conditions are and the drivers are. I find Chicago freeways always under construction with holes EVERYWHERE. Chicago is in my experience so far the most jenky place to ride. Just my experience in my travels. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
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The extended part of the barrel that fits into the crankcase. Sorry, that photo is of the barrel off a 1200. The spigot is facing towards the camera and as you can see the walls of it are 10-12mm thick. They don't have to be anywhere near that thick to take the latteral thrust forces of the piston. If you look for instance at the wall thickness on the spigots of one of the 1100 'pushrod' engine barrels you will find that they are much thinner, I can't remember offhand exactly how thick 4mm maybe?
One of the limiting factors for capacity increase of the old pushrod motor was the stud pattern which didn't allow for any increase in the size of the 'oles in the crankcase that the barrel spigots slip into. With the new Hi-Cam motor the crankcase has been re-designed and the stud spacing widened. This, along with the adoption of steel laminate gaskets and a four stud hold-down system rather than the previous six stud one has allowed for wider stud spacing and therefore bigger bores to be fitted to the case meaning swept volume can be increased.
Raising the motor in the frame allowed for the fitment of a deeper sump to combat the other bugbear of increased capacity, crankcase pressurization. How this is going to be tackled on the increased capacity Cali with a lower slung engine is going to be interesting, although it may use the same sump or something similar and run less ground clearance. Who knows?
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Oh, just doing the sums. Using the same stroke of 81.2 mm as the 1200 motors if you increase bore size to 100mm from the 95 of the 1200 you'll get a swept volume of just under 1300cc's. Make the bore 105 mm and you get a swept volume of 1406cc. There is plenty of 'Meat' in the spigots for a 10mm increase in bore diameter.
VDG
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An added bonus of more cc swept area is the possibility of a flat(ter) top piston and revised combustion chamber with a chance of some quench area. Compression ratio can be maintained while octane requirements can be reduced. A non-detonating engine is a happy engine!
Those spigots are the thickest I've ever seen.....wow.
Terry
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No domes on the 'Nuovo Hi-Cam' pistons.
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4091/5206087274_0c88344a64.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/5206087274/)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5209/5206094244_a95d3231f8.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/5206094244/)
Lovely modern combustion chambrt too.
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4033/4350424356_14dce7b011.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/4350424356/)
VDG
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Ah, yes very nice. Top ring location lower than I expected since much current practice is to raise it ridiculously high for emissions...I like a low ring for long life. Thanks for the pics, Pete....very interesting.
Terry
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I really like the Nuovo Hi-Cam. Apart from the fact it is very *Different* from virtually any other engine on the market it combines a lot of *New* thinking with a number of clever sollutions to the limitations of an *old fashioned* side draught head design. No, it's not 'Cutting Edge' automotive technology but it's a fine and happy thing that offers an alternative to the accepted practice of double overhead cams and four valves per cylinder cooled by a glycol filled water jacket. It also produces very acceptable power and torque figures given its limitations.
VDG
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VDG,
Are you able to determine if the frame of the new Cali 1400 is a variation of the Tonti (mildly or heavily modified), the Griso/Stelvio or something altogether new?
Thank You,
Mark
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If you want to see where the extra 200cc's are coming from?
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4129/5206160280_46fc65ca4c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/5206160280/)
The spigots on the 1200 barrels tell the story! They're about 12mm thick. The 1400 motor is simply going to be an over bored version of the same piece of kit with twin plugged heads to combat combustion surging issues. Betcha.
VDG
I was under the understanding that a 4'' bore was a hell of a lot a area for a flame front to travel in an acceptable amount of time, making "twin plugging" approaching a necessity.
or was this what was meant by "combustion surging issues"?
P.S excuse my ignorance. Your posts are very intriguing ;-T
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Very wide combustion chambers with a central plug suffer because the flame front moves out from the point of ignition in a spiral form, or this is how it was explained to me by one of the chief engineers at Piaggio when he was in Sydney. Over a number of engine cycles, (Sorry, no idea how many?) this leads to cyclic pockets of end-gas and un combusted mixture in the combustion chamber and this is what leads to the true 'Surging' issues experienced by some large capacity, short stroke twins. This is different to the general rough running caused by poor mapping or mechanical issues like sloppy throttle cables that are commonly commented on with bikes that haven't been well set up.
The cure used by a variety of manufacturers is to add a second plug towards the side of the combustion chamber and this apparently ignites the un burnt charge or the bit that is likely to remain unburnt. This is the system used for instance on the 1200 Doso. The second plug only fires up to I think 3,500 or so RPM and then the system reverts to single plug firing.
As I said, this is how it was explained to me and I can see no reason why I should be bullshitted to.
VDG
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VDG,
Are you able to determine if the frame of the new Cali 1400 is a variation of the Tonti (mildly or heavily modified), the Griso/Stelvio or something altogether new?
Thank You,
Mark
Nah! It may pay stylistic lip-service to the old Tonti frame but it'll be a completely new stand alone product I reckon.
VDG
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Very wide combustion chambers with a central plug suffer because the flame front moves out from the point of ignition in a spiral form, or this is how it was explained to me by one of the chief engineers at Piaggio when he was in Sydney. Over a number of engine cycles, (Sorry, no idea how many?) this leads to cyclic pockets of end-gas and un combusted mixture in the combustion chamber and this is what leads to the true 'Surging' issues experienced by some large capacity, short stroke twins. This is different to the general rough running caused by poor mapping or mechanical issues like sloppy throttle cables that are commonly commented on with bikes that haven't been well set up.
The cure used by a variety of manufacturers is to add a second plug towards the side of the combustion chamber and this apparently ignites the un burnt charge or the bit that is likely to remain unburnt. This is the system used for instance on the 1200 Doso. The second plug only fires up to I think 3,500 or so RPM and then the system reverts to single plug firing.
As I said, this is how it was explained to me and I can see no reason why I should be bullshitted to.
VDG
;-T ;-T
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Hopefully, this link will work. Let the speculation continue.... :beat_horse
http://www.motociclismo.it/moto-guzzi-california-1400-video-esclusivo-moto-52186?fb_comment_id=fbc_10151123624976578_24569316_10151125527566578#f3f74192f959aae
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Ahem - see post #2163
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=26280.2160
In motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOv7Qzzp6Pc&feature=player_embedded#
:BEER:
-
merged.
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Ahem - see post #2163
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=26280.2160
:BEER:
Foiled again! That's it for me. I'm keeping all Cali 1400 stories to myself! :wife:
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Google Translate doesn't seem to be working for me on the comments to the Motociclismo video. If anybody here can translate the Italian to English, I'd be interested to know what our Italian friends think of the bike.
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My observation is that everyone thinks that their traffic is the worst. Atlanta guys will swear that I85/75/285 makes the DC Beltway look like a cakewalk, Houston guys compare their traffic to Los Angeles' disadvantage, Chicago guys think that Boston is a walk in the park ... and Londoners will say that the M25 is a nightmare on earth, not to be compared with anything else.
I just adjust my attitude and speed to whatever's going on, go with it, and (IF I don't like it) don't go that way again if I can avoid it. "Avoiding It" generally means living somewhere else, though.
Lannis
I think your last phrase is the key. I am totally bewildered when I have to visit a large city. Not by the roads or the traffic, as those are manageable by simply using one's head. What bewilders me is the fact so many people voluntarily choose to live in such close proximity to one another, which compounds stress and unhappiness while some parts of the country which are really nice are experiencing a net loss in population.
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What bewilders me is the fact so many people voluntarily choose to live in such close proximity to one another, which compounds stress and unhappiness while some parts of the country which are really nice are experiencing a net loss in population.
Always been a country boy myself; never have understood paying a fortune to be jammed in with millions of other people, no room, noise, dirty, hard to get around ...... But they seem to like it, and no one's making them live there, so it's perfectly OK by me!
Lannis
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the good thing about a city is that you can pic your friends as you like to,
and do not have to stick with the ( only ) ones that happen to live around you.
it is a matter of socialisation IMO, you can tell on this here board where the
eloquent, kind, friendly and open minded people come from.
;) :)
;-T
Yes; of course, in a rural area you CAN'T pick your friends ... strange, that, but I guess it must be true. And I've always found that the mean, unsocialized, inhospitable people live out in the country (as you'll find if you break down on your bike, for example, and stop by a house for help), and that New Yorkers and Parisians are mostly kind, open, and friendly to strangers. Just talk to a few on the street and take some notes ... !
Yep, you can sure characterize them like that, sure can. Hyuk, hyuk, Ah gots to git ta Siler City sumtahm, see sum sahts an' all them wimmin ....
Lannis
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Humility must be in short supply in Hamburg.
Mac Davis wrote your theme song 32 years ago. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYKWch_MNY0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYKWch_MNY0&feature=related)
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the good thing about a city is that you can pic your friends as you like to,
and do not have to stick with the ( only ) ones that happen to live around you.
it is a matter of socialisation IMO, you can tell on this here board where the
eloquent, kind, friendly and open minded people come from.
In complete agreement with you on this!
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[quote author=Muschi link=topic=26280.msg854524#msg854524 date=1344545776
Problem is, that most Joes are trapped within their own Lifes and perception that much,
that they do not get a chance to even get an idea about how great another person from
a different Lifestyle could be.
[/quote]
Well said. Also, a persons perception of life is their reality, be it right or wrong.
I too grew up in a harbor town ( Seattle ) which is a far more beautiful and diverse city than Hamburg could ever dream of being ;D
(http://s10.postimage.org/gpt8g40lh/seattle6.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/gpt8g40lh/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/tgnkct24b/seattle4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tgnkct24b/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/ml4r2x3yf/seattle8.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ml4r2x3yf/)
(http://s10.postimage.org/wa9sy4phh/jurgen.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wa9sy4phh/)
(http://s9.postimage.org/vev8in2sb/klinsmann_signed_jersey.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vev8in2sb/)
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if you compare civilised people like me with Joe from Idaho, the guy that can sit upright without
any backbone because his skin is so thick, you will get a good idea about what character, liberal,
socialisation, and being open minded are all about, and how great it could feel.
I'm not even sure what that means...
-
Quote from Muschi -
the good thing about a city is that you can pic your friends as you like to,
and do not have to stick with the ( only ) ones that happen to live around you.
it is a matter of socialisation IMO, you can tell on this here board where the
eloquent, kind, friendly and open minded people come from.
In complete agreement with you on this!
Well THAT certainly explains a few things ....
-
Well THAT certainly explains a few things ....
Step up to the plate, and explain what this explains.
-
Step up to the plate, and explain what this explains.
"Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it anyway ....."
-
Here we go again.
(http://www.motociclismo.it/cache/gallery/moto-scooter/moto-guzzi-california-1400-in-versione-definitiva/IMG368.jpg_2000.jpg)
http://www.motociclismo.it/popupgallery/moto-scooter/moto-guzzi-california-1400-in-versione-definitiva?iframe=true&width=980&height=605
http://www.motociclismo.it/moto-guzzi-california-1400-in-versione-definitiva-moto-52377
(the guy is about 2 m high)
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....well done is done ;D
Suppose to be the final version ::) There are 7 pic's in the slide show. Google translate of an Italian site below the pic. I like this huge iron horse ;-T ...or is it a Camel ;D
(http://www.motociclismo.it/cache/articoli/52377/moto-guzzi-california-1400-1.jpg_630.jpg)
http://translate.google.dk/translate?sl=it&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motociclismo.it%2Fmoto-guzzi-california-1400-in-versione-definitiva-moto-52377
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The Italian translates to "Overweight Oversize Tank". I'm sure it will sell like hot-cakes.
Lannis
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It does appear to be massive doesn't it!
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I'll reserve my judgement until I get to see one in person. ;) :) ;D :D ;) :)
Photos can be deceiving as we all know! :o ;D :D ;) ???
If you are looking for a big "CRUISER" (Harley Big Twin, Triumph Rocket III, Japanese clone V-twin cruiser, etc.), this may just be the ticket.... 8) ;-T ;-T
However......it's NOT a sport-touring bike! :o :o :o ::) ::) ;D ;D :D :D ;) :)
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....well done is done ;D
Suppose to be the final version ::) There are 7 pic's in the slide show. Google translate of an Italian site below the pic. I like this huge iron horse ;-T ...or is it a Camel ;D
(http://www.motociclismo.it/cache/articoli/52377/moto-guzzi-california-1400-1.jpg_630.jpg)
http://translate.google.dk/translate?sl=it&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motociclismo.it%2Fmoto-guzzi-california-1400-in-versione-definitiva-moto-52377
Sure, they park the 1400 next to that BMW monstrosity and its bound to look good. The seat look good like it could use more padding, I hope its comfortable cause not aftermaket seat will be available and spending 600 to 800 for a custom get irritating.
-
Holy crap, 6' 6"?
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That is one ugly ass headlight.
jdg
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Not excited.
I'll reserve more comments for the final act.
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I absolutely hate it. No need to see one in person. It is so ugly I can't stand looking at it. Each subsequent picture that comes out looks worse. This bike is going to bankrupt Guzzi.
I didn't notice the shock cutout before. It looks terrible. I notice there is a line that seems to cut the bike in half. Notice where the seat meets the tank and then the front of the side cover then the frame. It all forms one line that visually cuts the bike in half.
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I absolutely hate it. No need to see one in person. It is so ugly I can't stand looking at it. Each subsequent picture that comes out looks worse. This bike is going to bankrupt Guzzi.
I didn't notice the shock cutout before. It looks terrible. I notice there is a line that seems to cut the bike in half. Notice where the seat meets the tank and then the front of the side cover then the frame. It all forms one line that visually cuts the bike in half.
That is weird. Like two bikes have been grafted together. Even the exhaust has a line near there.
edit to add: Just a simple change to the shape of that side cover would probably fix it.
-
Here we go again.
(http://www.motociclismo.it/cache/gallery/moto-scooter/moto-guzzi-california-1400-in-versione-definitiva/IMG368.jpg_2000.jpg)
http://www.motociclismo.it/popupgallery/moto-scooter/moto-guzzi-california-1400-in-versione-definitiva?iframe=true&width=980&height=605
http://www.motociclismo.it/moto-guzzi-california-1400-in-versione-definitiva-moto-52377
(the guy is about 2 m high)
Looks like he is hanging his heel off the rear of the footboard in order to prevent his leg from hitting the cylinder head.
Waiting to see one in person to see if those boards are as forward as they look.
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16" wheels?
If Harley has them, the 1400 HAS to have them, doesn't it?
-
I like the Skunk seat !
Roberto.
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I've got mixed feelings about the looks. Still want to see it in person.
More importantly, I still want to see some specs.
But I don't hate it.
-
First, I like it. I like the black fork; very reminiscent of the Eldorado. I like the cylinder heads cut-outs in the tank; very old school, like the very first motorcycles. I like the details; I think they are very well done and expensive-looking.
Second, I'm not sure why you guys are saying it looks massive. The person sitting on the bike is 6' 5" (2 meters) tall, and he does not fit the bike -- it's too small for him. In fact, it looks to me like people over 6' tall are going to have trouble fitting on this bike. That's NOT a big bike.
Look at it in comparison to the BMW C right next to it. They are similarly sized, and the BMW is not a big bike.
Look at it from the back. Notice how the seat tapers and drops down in the front. It looks to me that unlike the current California, people around 5' tall will be able to flat-foot it.
So, exactly how is a cruiser that's designed to fit people between 5' and 6' tall, massive?
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16" wheels?
Looks like the same 17" rear / 18" front combo they've been running for years.
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Looks pretty darn close to done to me. The Mandelo eagle is on the tank if you look closely. Bike does not look huge when taken in full scale at all.
I like it.
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Where did that quote come from?
Mahatma Gandhi
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Here we go again.
(http://www.motociclismo.it/cache/gallery/moto-scooter/moto-guzzi-california-1400-in-versione-definitiva/IMG368.jpg_2000.jpg)
http://www.motociclismo.it/popupgallery/moto-scooter/moto-guzzi-california-1400-in-versione-definitiva?iframe=true&width=980&height=605
http://www.motociclismo.it/moto-guzzi-california-1400-in-versione-definitiva-moto-52377
(the guy is about 2 m high)
It doesn't look like he can operate the rear brake. :(
John
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Why would you say that? He's just posing for a simple picture.
Mark
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I think because one could imagine that if he tries to put his foot on the brake lever, the cylinder will be in the way of his shin?
-
It still looks all wrong.
-
The guy in the photo is the owner of the 850 T3 that you can partly see in picture 5. He just climbed on the bike for a moment while the tester was not there, so that's not necessarily his riding position.
As said, he is a very tall guy.
The location of the shots is the "Birreria Padavena", a place that is traditionally full of bikers (something like a Triumph prototipe in front of the Ace Cafè), so the bike was there to be seen, and commented.
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Why would you say that? He's just posing for a simple picture.
Mark
Looks like the cylinder would prevent him from moving his leg forward enough to get at the pedal. IDK, reserving judgement until I see it in person. Pictures can be very deceiving.
John
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Mahatma Gandhi
Yes; in trying to argue that people from the city are far superior to people from rural areas in wisdom, friends, and cultural awareness, unsere deutschen Freunde had invoked Gandhi. So as to end my part of the discussion and not get caught in the crossfire when he inevitably got snipped, I just left behind a little, somewhat appropos Gandhi quote. I don't think anybody got it at the time though, and without the original context it falls a bit flat ....
Lannis
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Hmmm. The squared-off front fender does not match the style of the rest of the bike. Skunk seat has to go. And I want to see it in RED! But me likey!
-
I think because one could imagine that if he tries to put his foot on the brake lever, the cylinder will be in the way of his shin?
That would be news to those who have actually ridden this new model. Presumedly they were able to bring it to a stop. But many are certainly welcome to draw their own speculations. As I've always said, I really want to like this bike when it comes to the US. But I'd prefer it in white with an all black seat. Also anxious to see the windshield, saddlebag and other options as well. Certainly the price of it will be interesting to find out. Are they supposed to be in the US later this year or early next?
Mark
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??? Will the forks fit on my Eldo? ~; ~; ~;
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Hmmm. The squared-off front fender does not match the style of the rest of the bike. Skunk seat has to go. And I want to see it in RED! But me likey!
Both fenders leave me cold as to style and geometry and while skunkifying a seat is a legitimate nod to nostalgic style, I don't see it much supported or replicated elsewhere on the bike. I'm in fact going to have to add some white to my all black Calvin to regain the justification for the seats skunkiness which I hate to give up.
-
I like the headlight, different, yet cool. Rear fender looks good to me too, not sure I like the tag set up, but that can be changed.
-
I just realized what I don't like about this side view. Notice how the tank and seat come together in a vertical line. Then note how the side cover below has a straight edge that follows the seat/tank line. And if you follow it down even further, you have another vertical line on the front of what appears to be a variation of a CARC drive.
The result is that the front and rear of the bike don't flow together and look as though they were designed separately and then stuck together. The more I look at it the more I dislike it. I hope they do something about that on the production version.
(http://static.blogo.it/twowheelsblog/foto-spia-guzzi-california-1400-2013-01/Guzzi_California_1400_01.jpg)
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I just realized what I don't like about this side view. Notice how the tank and seat come together in a vertical line. Then note how the side cover below has a straight edge that follows the seat/tank line. And if you follow it down even further, you have another vertical line on the front of what appears to be a variation of a CARC drive.
The result is that the front and rear of the bike don't flow together and look as though they were designed separately and then stuck together. The more I look at it the more I dislike it. I hope they do something about that on the production version.
Right. You expect to see hinges on the other side, or something.
I don't "get" big cruisers. Why so much power just to ride slowly? Obviously, I'm in the ignorant minority on this one.
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I don't "get" big cruisers. Why so much power just to ride slowly? Obviously, I'm in the ignorant minority on this one.
Because people's definition of "slowly" varies.
Some people use big cruisers to tour on - sometimes high-speed, 2-up on the highway.
And it's good to have power in reserve.
That said, I'm not a "Big Cruiser" guy either, though I would like another RK one of these days for the aforementioned purposes.
-
Because people's definition of "slowly" varies.
Some people use big cruisers to tour on - sometimes high-speed, 2-up on the highway.
And it's good to have power in reserve.
That said, I'm not a "Big Cruiser" guy either, though I would like another RK one of these days for the aforementioned purposes.
what is the "power in reserve" that you speak? Is there a special Harley Key for HOG members-only that the rest of us can't obtain? Secret power residing only that the Motor Company faithful can access?
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what is the "power in reserve" that you speak? Is there a special Harley Key for HOG members-only that the rest of us can't obtain? Secret power residing only that the Motor Company faithful can access?
???
This isn't just about Harleys but I totally don't understand your comment.
Regardless, let me explain my point further, for instance, a typical Tonti Cali like my Jackal made decent power, and wasn't bad 2-up. But a pass at highway speeds really required a downshift that say the Breva 1100 could get away without.
I think that is ONE of the reasons some people like the big motor cruisers (i.e. the 1400-1800cc and bigger bikes).
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OK Kev,
so for some bikes the "reserve power" is acccessed by a down shift and for others it's just a pull of the right wrist (provided you're not already pulling 4400-5k rpm)?
OK, got it. Nothing hidden when I've ridden a Glide, RK or Soft Tail (or Star, Vulcan or Vision).
-
Ah, I see what you were asking.
By "reserve" I meant literally - "more than you need/more than you were using".
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I don't care for it looking at the pictures. The valve cover/ head seems large and out of scale. The pipes and mufflers look overly large but that seems to be the trend in the case of mufflers. The section between the tank and forks looks like somethings missing but that about all you can do with the long rake look.
As for the guy looking like he doesn't fit. I don't think the Cruiser market is aim at the above 5'10' market. ;D
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I just realized what I don't like about this side view. Notice how the tank and seat come together in a vertical line. Then note how the side cover below has a straight edge that follows the seat/tank line. And if you follow it down even further, you have another vertical line on the front of what appears to be a variation of a CARC drive.
The result is that the front and rear of the bike don't flow together and look as though they were designed separately and then stuck together. The more I look at it the more I dislike it. I hope they do something about that on the production version.
(http://static.blogo.it/twowheelsblog/foto-spia-guzzi-california-1400-2013-01/Guzzi_California_1400_01.jpg)
Mark,
The more I see this bike the more I can't help but see the near vertical line. It was pointed out early on that the front and back halves of the bike seem to have been designed at two separate places by two separate teams. That silly seam/line presents itself like a sore thumb. From the seat/tank to the intake/side covers to the shaft/U-Joint/transmission and even offset a bit to the scuff guard on the muffler. I did my best to try and ignore it but now that seems to be my focal point when looking at this new California. But I do believe we're looking at the production version. Doesn't Piaggio plan to have some of these in the USA late this year for a meeting of some kind or maybe for the start of the Motorcycle Show circuit? For better or worse, this just may be the end product, for now. I'm thinking the second version/generation may address the 'hinge' design effect.
All the best,
Mark
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I can see that line of demarcation, but I'm mostly ambivalent about it.
That said, I bet it would all but disappear if you got rid of the skunk stripe on the seat and/or reshaped the seat slightly.
-
You may have to reshape the front of the seat and the front of the side cover.
Mark
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Mark,
The more I see this bike the more I can't help but see the near vertical line. It was pointed out early on that the front and back halves of the bike seem to have been designed at two separate places by two separate teams. That silly seam/line presents itself like a sore thumb. From the seat/tank to the intake/side covers to the shaft/U-Joint/transmission and even offset a bit to the scuff guard on the muffler. I did my best to try and ignore it but now that seems to be my focal point when looking at this new California. But I do believe we're looking at the production version. Doesn't Piaggio plan to have some of these in the USA late this year for a meeting of some kind or maybe for the start of the Motorcycle Show circuit? For better or worse, this just may be the end product, for now. I'm thinking the second version/generation may address the 'hinge' design effect.
All the best,
Mark
Dude,
You gotta relax. You probably don't even like my bike....
(http://s15.postimage.org/pgifrz0pz/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pgifrz0pz/)
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Dude,
You gotta relax. You probably don't even like my bike....
(http://s15.postimage.org/pgifrz0pz/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pgifrz0pz/)
Very good, bravo!!! ;)
Mark
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I hope the bike is good to ride and sells well, but the more I see it the more I dislike it. Too long, too low, with a generouse helping of fugliness. Maybe it will look much better in the flesh than in photographs.
Think it is aimed more at the US market than Europe.
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I looked at some of the old and most recent photos of the California 1400 and wondered once again...where's the foot shifter? Could this bike have a paddle shifter on the handlebars, or some sort of transmission like the Mana?
Thoughts?
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I looked at some of the old and most recent photos of the California 1400 and wondered once again...where's the foot shifter? Could this bike have a paddle shifter on the handlebars, or some sort of transmission like the Mana?
Thoughts?
No
Some of the recent pics from the rear that show the left side clearly show a heel/toe shifter arrangement at the left footboard.
(http://s14.postimage.org/c8l61sc71/IMG371_jpg_630_490_copy.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/c8l61sc71/)
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Thanks!
-
No
Some of the recent pics from the rear that show the left side clearly show a heel/toe shifter arrangement at the left footboard.
(http://s14.postimage.org/c8l61sc71/IMG371_jpg_630_490_copy.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/c8l61sc71/)
Doesn't look like there is much lean available before that board starts scraping. Didn't realize they stuck out so far.
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Doesn't look like there is much lean available before that board starts scraping. Didn't realize they stuck out so far.
I don't believe that it's possible to determine lean angle from that photo, taken at that angle.
Keep in mind, also, that the bike is on it's sidstand in the photo, which probably takes at least 10-degrees.
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I don't believe that it's possible to determine lean angle from that photo, taken at that angle.
Keep in mind, also, that the bike is on it's sidstand in the photo, which probably takes at least 10-degrees.
Certainly not possible to get exact detail but if you assume that the frame rails aren't going to be any higher than they are on a Tonti and then consider the impact of having a floor board that looks to be mounted a good 3" off the frame, I think it's pretty safe that cornering clearance is going to suffer.
Of course I could be totally wrong and I hope that is the case. We'll just have to see what shows up at the dealerships.
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Doesn't look like there is much lean available before that board starts scraping. Didn't realize they stuck out so far.
Not to worry. The "Target Market" (as has been described several times in the thread) doesn't care about that ..... Scraping? That's for people who lean.
Lannis ("But it's not for eatin' - it's just for lookin' through ...")
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Bags.
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5837/dscn24131.jpg)
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Oh crap - now I have to admit that looks HORRIBLE...
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Bags.
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5837/dscn24131.jpg)
That's the best I've seen it look yet.
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Beetle Bags!
Has Piaggio hired someone away from Corbin?
~;
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With a nice windshield and top case(color matched) it looks good. Definitely outside the box and unique, which drew me to Guzzi in the first place. I still like it.
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Now we're getting somewhere.
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Bags.
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5837/dscn24131.jpg)
looks like the side panels from a Vespa
(http://www.qualityscooters.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/vespa.jpg)
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Looks very good, flow with rear fender looks right on but not over the top Corbin like
Color of bags, has to be prototype.
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Dude,
You gotta relax. You probably don't even like my bike....
(http://s15.postimage.org/pgifrz0pz/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pgifrz0pz/)
I like your style! ;D ;D ;D ;-T
Good thing I am not part of the "target market" or if I do fit, it doesn't spin my wheels. Give me the smallblock any day. :D
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I don't think this was designed by the same team who designed the CalVin. I'm no styling genius but shouldn't the bottoms of the bags be parallel to the tops of the mufflers? Also the bars around the front halves of the bags are at an odd angle to the shape of the bags.
I'd really like to "like" this new bike but too many things just don't fit with my idea of "good looking". I sure hope the production machine is much better. :-\
Terry
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Who knows? I'd wager that a bunch of us will be chomping at the bit to order one when they're made available. Maybe the folks at MG are reading comments on this thread and making last minute changes.
It might be like the Cal 90, to me at least. It looked OK in pictures but looks really good on the hoof.
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The bottom angle is certainly off but that's an easy fix. But I sure like the bag design.
Forza Moto Guzzi,
Mark
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OOOOOOO More Pictures...
(http://s8.postimage.org/c9z5ej7q9/304323_3126502301244_192963728_n.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/c9z5ej7q9/)
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I agree with Charlie - the best look yet (with the bags). They really have to do something about that daft feet-forward riding position though. It's just wrong.
Nick
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They really have to do something about that daft feet-forward riding position though. It's just wrong.
Nick
The riders seating position looks very "Road King-ish".
Probably thier benchmark.
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The riders seating position looks very "Road King-ish".
Probably thier benchmark.
That is SOOOOOO not my riding position ....
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The foot position does not look that much different than my Cali. I like the bags, they flow with the fenders.
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Looks like the same guy drew up that rain suit, a green thingie.
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The foot position does not look that much different than my Cali. I like the bags, they flow with the fenders.
Really?
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Mikes-Bassa/i-DV5bdXt/0/M/DSCN1835-M.jpg)
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5837/dscn24131.jpg)
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They could be similar if the 1400 rider had not pushed his feet up so far.
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On my 74 California, with my feet centred on the floorboards, my shin is vertical - a sane and very comfortable position. Even if the fellow in the green suit pulled his feet back to the centre of the boards, his legs would still be forming an obtuse (both senses) angle IMHO.
It looks as though there would be way too much pressure on the buttocks for my taste. But i do like the look of the rear end with those bags.
Nick
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Ohhhhh for gawd's sake already enough with the mountains from mole hills on the freaking board positions.
There's a difference, tiny to some, huge to others, but it's there.
Put me in the tiny difference camp (less than an Italian foot for sure lol).
Rocker without knowing your size and the test rider's size (not to mention a more comparable angle) those photos are useless to compare.
Not to mention your foot is hanging off the rear of the board and his is pushed to the front.
Plus, as we all know seat height would change things as well, so any changes there would effect the leg angle.
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All this discussion about a new bike has got to be good for the brand. it shows that we the consumer care about the bike that is about to come down the pipe! The boy's at corporate HQ must surely be lapping all of this attention up. Are they changing things based on our reactions who knows but I bet they are keeping an eye on this and other discussions.
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Agreed talk and buzz is a good thing.
Then again there was plenty of talk and buzz about the now defunct (in the US) XR and XRX from Harley >:(
I would think that though this talk and buzz is encouraging, it would be even moreso on a NON-Guzzi site, and at the end of the day the proof will really be in the sales pudding (with which I hope it does fabulously well).
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(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5837/dscn24131.jpg)
My back hurts just looking at the photos.
Not that it matters. There are a lot of buyers looking for uncomfortable 'style'.
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My back hurts just looking at the photos.
Not that it matters. There are a lot of buyers looking for uncomfortable 'style'.
No wonder, at age 91 you would be lucky to swing a leg over.
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Northern Italians are tall, at 5'10" I feel short there as most men are 6' or more.
the problem I see is that the seat doesn't appear to have much padding and no recess for the tail bone like touring seats. The rest I like a lot, its why I expected the new Cali to be.
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Rocker without knowing your size and the test rider's size (not to mention a more comparable angle) those photos are useless to compare.
Not to mention your foot is hanging off the rear of the board and his is pushed to the front.
Plus, as we all know seat height would change things as well, so any changes there would effect the leg angle.
You know my size, we met face to face in Virginia. For the others, 5'-11", 235-lbs, 32-inch inseam.
My foot position is arch on the PEG, toe under the shifter.
Seat height is stock Bassa 28".
Basically, though, you're right. We don't know how big that rider is, but he doesn't look short like the Ducati test riders do in spy photos.
One cool thing from the spy photo is that the boards are up at axle height. That should dispell some of the "lack of ground clearance" postings. This thing looks like it will have great cornering clearance.
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LOL, yes, I know I've met you - but I gather MOST people on the board haven't... :BEER:
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I figure the test rider is at least 6' 2" tall - possibly 6' 5" - based on my study of the photo. 8)
that is a good point. 6'5" is probably stretching it. but the 1400 is a LARGE bike. and this guy makes it look kind of tiny underneath him. so there is a good chance that he's a fairly tall dude.
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One cool thing from the spy photo is that the boards are up at axle height. That should dispell some of the "lack of ground clearance" postings. This thing looks like it will have great cornering clearance.
;-T That's great news.
Guzzi seems to offer a rear-set kit for the V7's. Here is to hoping the 1400 will have a standard peg set option! :BEER:
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Three versions of the bike are said to be coming, they may not all have the exact same foot equipment and position.
If some of you guys would spend half the amount of time helping your wife do the dishes as you do trying to figure the ergos of this bike, you might get a little more action!
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Even down here in Arkansas we have those new-fangled warshing machines that take all the work out of it.
Automatic clothes warshing machies, too! (Believe it, or don't believe it!)
I'm still not sure what the wimmin-folk do with all thier spare time these days...
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I'm still not sure what the wimmin-folk do with all thier spare time these days...
Well, today, while I was cooking dinner, she was the flight doc for the helicopter transfer of an infant transport between two different NICUs so she could get the baby on head cooling. ;-T
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Do the dishes????? ... We use Paper plates.. and RECYCLE so we are environmentally conscience!
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Demo bikes will be available in UK dealers next month.
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My mother once told me the great emancipator for women was the wash and wear shirt. She used to spend a couple of hours a day ironing my Dad's dress shirts (he changed twice a day). Permanent press came out and - bingo. More free time - to do other work.
I don't know how many thousands of hours my Mom spent with the ironing board, an old Sunbeam iron, and an old green quart ginger ale bottle with a cork-and-tin sprinkler in the end of it, sprinkling and ironing my Dad's white (Navy CPO) shirts ....
Although back in the 80's, when I asked a 101 year old lady what was the biggest change that had happened in her long life, she said "Electricity. Women used to work like dogs 16 hours a day till electriciy came along ....."
Lannis
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Even down here in Arkansas we have those new-fangled warshing machines that take all the work out of it.
Automatic clothes warshing machies, too! (Believe it, or don't believe it!)
Wow! You got TWO wifes/girlfriends, you must a Mormon or a Muslim.
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Wow! You got TWO wifes/girlfriends, you must a Mormon or a Muslim.
And both are his sisters.
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I can't wade through 57-58 threads...(sorry) :o :o :o :o :o
* When is the this model coming to the USA (fall 2012?)
* What is the reported MSRP?
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I can't wade through 57-58 threads...(sorry) :o :o :o :o :o
* When is the this model coming to the USA (fall 2012?)
* What is the reported MSRP?
Neither has been officially announced.
THOUGH some reports did insist it would be here this fall or possibly next spring.
Nothing more detailed than that yet.
Spring might be possible.
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I will just have to reserve aesthetic opinion of the bike until I can see one in person. I've gone back on forth at least four times on the bike in terms of whether I like the looks of it. First photos that came out, bright lights showroom pics, not so much, then later with the video and the bike in real time, I was back in the boat, then the rider spy vid and photos come out and this one above with the boxes and I'm back off the kool-aid again. I can't make up my mind whether I like it or not. Not that unusual for me and a bike, but in person I'll bet it will impress as most Guzzis do.
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I can't wade through 57-58 threads...(sorry) :o :o :o :o :o
* When is the this model coming to the USA (fall 2012?)
* What is the reported MSRP?
JJ, the finished product is supposed to be shown at the big international motorcycle show in November. INTERMOT / EICMA.
I'm sure the dealers will learn about them at the dealers meeting this fall.
Like Kev said, no details have been forthcoming other than it's 1400cc, it's not water-cooled, it's going to be available in two or three variations.
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The more I see of it the more I like it!..........
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Thank guys - - and yes, I agree that I want to reserve my judgement until I see one in person. :) Sort of like an Italian V-Rod? :o ??? ::)
I test rode a Ducati Diavel not too long ago, and although the motor was brisk, it braked / handled well, (at least better than it looks in person...IMHO), that bike did nothing for me, personally. It reminded me of an Italian V-Max. :o ;D :D ;).
I am currently torn between trading in my Triumph '11 Sprint GT (a great bike overall, by the way, but it lacks the "soul" of a twin), on a new Griso 8V, or keep the Triumph and buy another vintage cafe Guzzi like my ol' Le Mans-III...or maybe wait till this monster cruiser-rod-hot 1400 comes out... ??? ??? ??? ???
Ron B. had to torture me more this summer by letting me ride his Griso 8V for awhile...and that really got me thinking.... :) 8) ;-T ;-T That is one sweet ride, believe me! :)
(http://s15.postimage.org/vtj1e5gsn/IMG_3124.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vtj1e5gsn/)
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If you have to ask, you can't afford it?... ???
Where there's a will...there is a way...and especially for me....and when it comes to motorcycles!! ;D :D ;) :)
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Well JJ, maybe I should sell you the Griso and I'll take the 1400... :BEER:
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Well JJ, maybe I should sell you the Griso and I'll take the 1400... :BEER:
Let's face the reality Ronzo... ;D :D ;) you miss your ol' Quota...you never really bonded with your new Griso...you keep talking about "cruisers" to the point where at C4 and Cruise Night you are looking more closely at Fat Boy's, Heritage Softails, and bikes of that class! :o :o ::) ::)
I told you that you should have bought a Norge or a Stelvio! ;D ;D :D :D ;) :)
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Let's face the reality Ronzo... ;D :D ;) you miss your ol' Quota...you never really bonded with your new Griso...you keep talking about "cruisers" to the point where at C4 and Cruise Night you are looking more closely at Fat Boy's, Heritage Softails, and bikes of that class! :o :o ::) ::)
I told you that you should have bought a Norge or a Stelvio! ;D ;D :D :D ;) :)
If cruisers are what's being stared at, then a Norge or Stelvio would have been a real mistake. Nothing wrong with Milwaukees finest. They're great mototcycles. They also happen to do very well what 99% of most riders do 99% of the time. I'd take a Road Glide or a Street Glide in a minute thank you very much. A Victory Cross Country, Cross Roads would be awesome as well.
All the best,
Mark
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If cruisers are what's being stared at, then a Norge or Stelvio would have been a real mistake. Nothing wrong with Milwaukees finest. They're great mototcycles. They also happen to do very well what 99% of most riders do 99% of the time. I'd take a Road Glide or a Street Glide in a minute thank you very much. A Victory Cross Country, Cross Roads would be awesome as well.
All the best,
Mark
Having owned and ridden 4 Big Twin Harley's (2 FLHS and 2 Road Kings) in my career, putting a total of over 125,000 miles on all four, I would agree 100%. :) 8) ;-T ;-T
Also, I have to say the new Victory Cross Country and Cross Country Tour models are very nice as well! 8) ;-T ;-T :)
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Right now, the only bike that would come close to getting me to sell the Griso for; Honda CB1100F. And that would be a big IF it makes it to the States.
After riding a big twin for the past four years I"m not sure if would like a four that much.
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Right now, the only bike that would come close to getting me to sell the Griso for; Honda CB1100F. And that would be a big IF it makes it to the States.
After riding a big twin for the past four years I"m not sure if would like a four that much.
But the nostalgia that thing wreaks of would be awesome!
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Alas, I completely agree....
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But the nostalgia that thing wreaks of would be awesome!
Two words for both of you guys..."Oh my...!" :) 8) ;-T ;-T
(http://s14.postimage.org/w7041lm7h/mugen_honda_cb1100_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/w7041lm7h/)
(http://s8.postimage.org/p4khjcpgx/mugen_honda_cb1100_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/p4khjcpgx/)
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Two words for both of you guys..."Oh my...!" :) 8) ;-T ;-T
(http://s14.postimage.org/w7041lm7h/mugen_honda_cb1100_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/w7041lm7h/)
(http://s8.postimage.org/p4khjcpgx/mugen_honda_cb1100_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/p4khjcpgx/)
L4s and Hondas are NOT my thing - but THAT is a nice bike. I always said if they brought it to the US I'd consider one.
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Reeks not wreaks
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Two words for both of you guys..."Oh my...!" :) 8) ;-T ;-T
(http://s14.postimage.org/w7041lm7h/mugen_honda_cb1100_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/w7041lm7h/)
(http://s8.postimage.org/p4khjcpgx/mugen_honda_cb1100_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/p4khjcpgx/)
This bike, and the VTR250 are the only Honda's I'd consider... and they both aren't available in the US. :'(
(http://s17.postimage.org/vj37ie3mj/Honda_VTR250_2009_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vj37ie3mj/)
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Two words for both of you guys..."Oh my...!" :) 8) ;-T ;-T
(http://s14.postimage.org/w7041lm7h/mugen_honda_cb1100_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/w7041lm7h/)
(http://s8.postimage.org/p4khjcpgx/mugen_honda_cb1100_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/p4khjcpgx/)
Bleh. ;) To each his own. No offense intended but I lost my excitement for this bike after the numbers came out and too after owning the GT1000 I used to have, a bike that is also retro but greatly less heavy, comparable performance, and with, I think it's safe to say, more character as well. Don't get me wrong, I like the innovative idea Honda has of better cooling the two interior cylinders, and that tank is painted pretty and all but by most accounts the bike is merely a serviceable and decent standard without a great amount of soul. Again, no insult intended and I mean this as a kind of compliment, but it would seem to me that if you are looking for that modern Bonnie with a bit more power, this is it. I will admit it is a sharp looking bike.
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If I HAD to pick a Honda sold here today I might go for the NT700X as it seems like a decent, utilitarian bike and my SIL loves hers.
That said, BP - "but by most accounts the bike is merely a serviceable and decent standard" THAT'S EXACTLY why I'd like it.
I'd also imagine the valve adjustments would be less frequent and possibly easier than the Duc. Not to mention the plastic tank issue on the Duc would be enough for me to look elsewhere.
That said, I'm not likely buying a Honda OR ANOTHER DUC anytime soon.
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If I HAD to pick a Honda sold here today I might go for the NT700X as it seems like a decent, utilitarian bike and my SIL loves hers.
That said, BP - "but by most accounts the bike is merely a serviceable and decent standard" THAT'S EXACTLY why I'd like it.
I'd also imagine the valve adjustments would be less frequent and possibly easier than the Duc. Not to mention the plastic tank issue on the Duc would be enough for me to look elsewhere.
That said, I'm not likely buying a Honda OR ANOTHER DUC anytime soon.
All points well taken, Kev, and I'd agree with you on all of them. I'm just saying that for me personally, if I had to choose a retro standard, I'd take the valve checks, better performance, and more character of the GT. And just because there is rampant misunderstanding on this board about the Ducati maintenance, I'd only add here that the "official" valve check is now a very reasonable 7500 miles. Most guys who do their own checks say that should actually be about every 10k-12k even. But, I'd also add that if I wasn't willing to learn the desmo valve check, and a Duc was going to be my only bike, I'd probably advice against getting one. But yes, I agree with you, I'm sure the Honda's intervals are better still. And hey, my comment about the Honda being the bigger and modern Bonnie was not meant as insult; it's just not for me.
And shoot, let me rephrase, if I had to choose a retro standard, I'd still skip the Honda, sell the Duc like I did, and get my Jackal. ;D :D It's a retro standard, right??? :)
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LOL - no insult taken for sure - I just found it funny since it's the exact reason I like it.
As for Duc maintenance, don't forget replacing the timing belts every 2 years.
And on the newer ones that use the Siemen's ECU's instead of the Weber-Marelli's I believe there is no such thing as a VDST yet, so you NEED THE DEALER TO TURN OFF THE OIL CHANGE/SERVICE WRENCH right now. ::)
Good thing my wife only puts a couple thousand miles a year on it otherwise I'd be pretty annoyed.
Oh yeah, and about that $1200 Brembo rim that bent on me the other day - UGH.
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I'm in the same boat with Kev here. I like it for what it is (and isn't); which are very similar reasons the Griso is so nice. I miss the standards which is too funny as back when they were king I was hoping they would come out with fast crotch rocket citizen racers. Which they have done in spades.
Now that they are as common as toilet paper; meh. Cool to look at but not so much to sit on and ride. Says more about me and my riding focus than anything else though.
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Sorry if this is 205, but a very interesting talk on the new cali. Good pictures.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4K3kFFnYDg&feature=g-crec-u
Sorry, no embed. You'll just have to hit the link. :)
John
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So I gleened from the video that the full touring version will be presented first in Sept. or October. Any day now.
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Apparently the 1400 will be in the shops in the UK in October this year!
This was posted on Corsa Italiana's Facebook page 2 hours ago:
"The New California 1400 is looking good! just had the spec sheet through and we are most impressed and very excited about it. ABS, Traction Control, Cruise Control, 35ltr Panniers, Screen, Passenger Grab Rail, Engine Bars, Front Spot Lamps ~ £14,499 ~ we are expecting the first bikes to arrive in October ~ Deposits being taken ~ Call for details.
** Bike may vary from that shown in the photograph"
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/tazturtle/motoguzzicalifornia1400.jpg)
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Spec sheet?
Ohhhhh...maybe some of our answers on size are finally about to be answered!
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Pricey!!
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Pricey!!
How so we know yet? That's a different market.
What's a Griso 8V or a Cal Vin sell for there?
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Bloody pricey- Calvin lists for about £11k but punters rarely pay more than £9k for one.
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Ooooh.... :o ok, that puts it in perspective, thanks! ;-T
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Kev m,
Slightly used 09 CalVin's are well under $10k. But now that there's a spec sheet the weight and size questions can certainly be addressed.
Mark
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Ooooh.... :o ok, that puts it in perspective, thanks! ;-T
To give a it more persective
My dealers felt if it was £12,000 it would sell, if they could have got it below £10,000 they would sell shed loads. £14,000 makes it a very expensive bike.
Triumph Thunderbird sells for £10,500 and a Rocket 3 for £12,500. I can get a BMW K1600 GT for £15,700 so it gives an idea where it sits in the current pricing of UK bikes. Sadly at £14,000 I wouldn't consider one although I really like it but I just could not justify the cost. It's about £5000 more than I could have bought a new Black Eagle cali a few weeks back...or 50% more....that's a big increase.
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To give a it more persective
My dealers felt if it was £12,000 it would sell, if they could have got it below £10,000 they would sell shed loads. £14,000 makes it a very expensive bike.
Triumph Thunderbird sells for £10,500 and a Rocket 3 for £12,500. I can get a BMW K1600 GT for £15,700 so it gives an idea where it sits in the current pricing of UK bikes. Sadly at £14,000 I wouldn't consider one although I really like it but I just could not justify the cost. It's about £5000 more than I could have bought a new Black Eagle cali a few weeks back...or 50% more....that's a big increase.
NOW THAT's a useful comparison.
Mark - can't really compare UK to US pricing - it's not like they're going to just take the UK price in pounds and convert it to dollars. There's a lot more that goes into their final decision on price for the US. But I think we can guess it will be on the higher end for sure now. I suspect from market pressures it won't go north of $17k, but if it does yikes.
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NOW THAT's a useful comparison.
Mark - can't really compare UK to US pricing - it's not like they're going to just take the UK price in pounds and convert it to dollars. There's a lot more that goes into their final decision on price for the US. But I think we can guess it will be on the higher end for sure now. I suspect from market pressures it won't go north of $17k, but if it does yikes.
It might be the same. 2 years ago, when I was in London, the price for a Mini Cooper Clubman was £32,000.00 OTD. In the US, it was $32,000.00. It might not be analogous, just saying.
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It might be the same. 2 years ago, when I was in London, the price for a Mini Cooper Clubman was £32,000.00 OTD. In the US, it was $32,000.00. It might not be analogous, just saying.
Well since a £1 doesn't equal $1, they're not the "same" - right?
BUT if you're suggesting perhaps the US model will be $14.5k I think you're probably optimistic, but I sure hope you're right. :BEER:
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Well since a £1 doesn't equal $1, they're not the "same" - right?
BUT if you're suggesting perhaps the US model will be $14.5k I think you're probably optimistic, but I sure hope you're right. :BEER:
You are correct, it is not a 1 to 1 ratio. I was just bringing up the fact that it was strange that the price of coffee at Starbucks was the same number (not value) in London and CA. The price of the car (again, not value) had the identical number.
Just thought it was strange.
Now of course when the Pound was $2.00, that £32,000.00 vehicle was very dear.
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You are correct, it is not a 1 to 1 ratio. I was just bringing up the fact that it was strange that the price of coffee at Starbucks was the same number (not value) in London and CA. The price of the car (again, not value) had the identical number.
Just thought it was strange.
Now of course when the Pound was $2.00, that £32,000.00 vehicle was very dear.
HOLY CRAP that would be an expensive Clubman...
It is interesting.
I am curious where the price will fall.... time will tell.
Now someone get ahold of and post that spec sheet!!! P:)
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What are the V7C's going for in the UK? That would be an interesting comparison.
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What are the V7C's going for in the UK? That would be an interesting comparison.
Never mind, I see Corsa Italiana has them for under 7K.
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Never mind, I see Corsa Italiana has them for under 7K.
V7 Stone - £6330 vs. $8499
Doesn't bode well for Cali pricing...
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V7 Stone - £6330 vs. $8499
Doesn't bode well for Cali pricing...
Guess the UK prices are inclusive all taxes (VAT). Hows about US ? :pop
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Guess the UK prices are inclusive all taxes (VAT). Hows about US ? :pop
No EDIT - I THOUGHT that was the base US MSRP vs base UK MSRP, no taxes or fees, but looking again, I think you might be right.
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Maybe they meant Lire ;D HA!HA!
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No that was the base US MSRP vs base UK MSRP, no taxes or fees.
The 17% VAT is usually included in the "base" price of anything in the UK.
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The 17% VAT is usually included in the "base" price of anything in the UK.
Yeah, I think you're right, I think I looked at the website too quick -
http://www.corsaitaliana.com/
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By my reckoning, a straight conversion of UK pricing to US dollars, after deducting the VAT, yields a $20,149 price tag. Yikes!
There's no way Moto Guzzi is going to get more for the California 1400 than Harley Davidson gets for a Road King, even if we are talking about the deluxe model. If they want to sell them here, US customers are going to have to see prices in the $15,000 - $18,000 range, or lower. We seem to get lower prices here than in Europe for the same goods, so that kind of pricing for the new Cali is still possible.
Maybe Piaggio Group thinks it can price the new Cali at twenty grand, just like a Ducati Diavel or Multistrada S Touring, or a fully-optioned Harley tourer, but I don't think it will sell at that price.
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You guys are nuts to think that Piaggio is going to come out with a totally new Cali, designed to compete head on with Road King type bikes, and then turn around and sell it for $14999. I have said all along this bike is going to cost more than any other Guzzi, for a number of reasons. One is, it is more than any other Guzzi, two it will compete with more costly bikes like the Road King, and three, charge more for it, makes it worth more, as long as they can sell enough.
The bike is going to start at close to $17, out the door loaded for bear, over $20, you heard it here first.
Keep in mind their market push with this bike is to get new riders on Guzzi, not get the old boys still riding 850Ts to pop for one. :)
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You're probably right, but i was still hoping for a base closer to $15-16k.
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If list is 15k on a 30 year old design(CalVin) why on earth would they put a 15K MSRP on a completely new Cali? Of course it will be 18k.
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If list is 15k on a 30 year old design(CalVin) why on earth would they put a 15K MSRP on a completely new Cali? Of course it will be 18k.
Because the market rejected the Cal Vin at that price.
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Because the market rejected the Cal Vin at that price.
:+1
Based on the actual selling price of the new California Vintages vs. the MSRP, and how few were sold in relation to other Guzzi models, I'd say they overshot the MSRP target by a factor of about 33% on the Cal Vin.
To get someone to try something new and different and unusual, the seller needs to offer something to the buyer. Road King being the obvious target of the new bike, Guzzi needs to offer a price advantage to the buyer, since Guzzi cannot compete with the Road King's 20 year reputation as the benchmark of the niche.
Guzzi can say it's a premium product. They can say it's worth whatever price they choose to hang on it. The market will decide what the true value is, just like they did with other Guzzis in the recent past.
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With dealers only ordering what they think they can sell, and MG only building what is ordered the market should be a wee bit kinder on the price. With no huge pile of unsold stock at fire sale prices to devalue the bike in our hands in in the show rooms they should be able to command a bit more money. A bit. How much remains to be seen. Trickle them out, sell them to non-traditional Guzzi buyers (i.e. not cheap old bastards) and it just may fly! ;D
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Because the market rejected the Cal Vin at that price.
Bingo! I said a month ago the Cal 90 will be $10k once the Cal 1400 shows up. I may be over estimating the Cal 90 value. Likely closer to $9k to move the ones that are here. Which will make late model used CalVin's closer to $8500.
Someone looking for a Harley Road King (or similar) at close to $20 grand is simply not the customer for this new Cali IMHO. Possibly the same for a potential Victory buyer. Piaggio may be thinking they are, but they're just not. A Harley buyer buys a Harley simply because it's a Harley. That's what the herd buys, so that's what they want. Most (not all) don't and won't consider another brand. The target market for this bike is likely going to be Triumph, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki and maybe even someone looking for a used BMW. But if Piaggio can't even attract or won't even consider the blind faithful Guzzi rider, well, good luck to them in this economy.
Time will tell,
Mark
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I suspect the price will be high at introduction. The reason being is that there are a certain number of people that want the "latest" thing and will pay a premium. Once they feel like they have gone through that group, the price will be adjusted to what they believe is realistic to meet whatever sales targets they have.
Or at least I hope they are realistic. Overpricing bikes just perpetuates the end of year closeout buyer habits that have plagued Guzzi for decades.
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I disagree with your take Mark. Yes, most Harley Road King buyers will not take a hard look at the Cal, but it is a relatively huge demo, and all MG has to do is peal off a tiny percentage to make the new bike a hit. The kind of HD rider who I think would be a likely Cal buyer is the long time older affluent rider who has had 3 RKs and is now looking for something different, but still in the same vain.
If the bike proves itself to be good looking, quick, and great handling, then I think MG has a good chance to sell hundreds in the US next year, we will see.
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If the bike proves itself to be good looking, quick, and great handling, then I think MG has a good chance to sell hundreds in the US next year, we will see.
Not disagreeing with you, but aren't those the same qualities the Calvin displayed against it's rivals? Regardless, I hope they sell bunches, quite obviously.
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No, the Cal Vin was two small, and old fashioned to compete head to head with the big boys, not the reality, but the perception.
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I disagree with your take Mark. Yes, most Harley Road King buyers will not take a hard look at the Cal, but it is a relatively huge demo, and all MG has to do is peal off a tiny percentage to make the new bike a hit. The kind of HD rider who I think would be a likely Cal buyer is the long time older affluent rider who has had 3 RKs and is now looking for something different, but still in the same vain.
If the bike proves itself to be good looking, quick, and great handling, then I think MG has a good chance to sell hundreds in the US next year, we will see.
I don't think we really disagree by much Chad. But that tiny percentage of the affluent multi time HD Road King buyer has years and years of mostly very favorable memories. Along with a closet or two of Motor Company clothng etc. They're used to being treated a certain way by their local Harley dealer as well. If you can get that small percentage to look at Moto Guzzi you're doing great. Then that same small percentage, with their years of favorable Harley customer service and camaraderie has to find a Guzzi dealer and actually show up.
There are a small handfull of Guzzi dealers whose door I would walk through and I've been an enthusiastic Guzzi owner for over 30 years. Just what do you think that older affluent, multi time Harley rider/buyer will think after walking into some of todays Piaggio/Vespa/Moto Guzzi/used car dealers around the country?
Heck, I keep finding myself in Harley dealers so what do I know. I was fondly looking at an absolutely beautiful red and black 2010 Street Glide Ultra Classic yesterday in Rockford. If it were a Road Glide Ultra, I may not have been able to stop myself. But I really need to remember I'm tapped out and to stop dreaming of another new motorcycle right now. My next one will likely be a 3 for 1 deal anyway.
All the best,
Mark
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No EDIT - I THOUGHT that was the base US MSRP vs base UK MSRP, no taxes or fees, but looking again, I think you might be right.
The UK prices are the on the road prices, they include tax and registration, basically the price you pay to ride it out of the showroom.
Historically in the UK we have always had a price comparison with the US of £1 = $1 as that seems to be what you actually buy stuff for in the US compared to UK and is a good rule ofthumb for vehicles, computers, clothes etc.
This does have a downside if you want a Harley in the UK as prices can get a it crazy.
I really hope the new cali does well but at the price point they are looking at it puts the bike amoung a very select group of bikes. Just had a look at the price for the Rocket 3 touring as a comparison in case the cali price is a dressed version. Rocket 3 touring is £13,500 and they do sell OK allthough not as well as the standard Rocket 3.
For me it's pushed the bike outside of what I'm willing to pay.
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No more time for prototypes.
(http://images18.fotki.com/v457/photos/4/454864/1602372/ek3sr9-vi.jpg)
Definitive bike, at least for the touring version. Picture taken in Genova, where the bike was to be photographed for the official catalog.
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No more time for prototypes.
(http://images18.fotki.com/v457/photos/4/454864/1602372/ek3sr9-vi.jpg)
Definitive bike, at least for the touring version. Picture taken in Genova, where the bike was to be photographed for the official catalog.
Wow. Okay, I'm back in the boat. That is sharp. Love the striping on the tank. Total and complete picking of the nits here but I still am not crazy about those sidecovers but I'm sure I wouldn't care in person. Any more photos from this?
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The UK prices are the on the road prices, they include tax and registration, basically the price you pay to ride it out of the showroom.
Historically in the UK we have always had a price comparison with the US of £1 = $1 as that seems to be what you actually buy stuff for in the US compared to UK and is a good rule ofthumb for vehicles, computers, clothes etc.
This does have a downside if you want a Harley in the UK as prices can get a it crazy.
I really hope the new cali does well but at the price point they are looking at it puts the bike amoung a very select group of bikes. Just had a look at the price for the Rocket 3 touring as a comparison in case the cali price is a dressed version. Rocket 3 touring is £13,500 and they do sell OK allthough not as well as the standard Rocket 3.
For me it's pushed the bike outside of what I'm willing to pay.
Is that really an accurate rule of thumb though?
I mean with economies rising and falling, exchange rates changing, it’s gotta be a very loose comparison.
Here are some current figures:
Harley Iron 883
US - $7999
UK - £6695
Harley Street Bob
US - $12,999
UK - £10,495
Harley Road King Classic
US - $17,395
UK - £19,899
I’d like to note that the BMW UK website lists MSRP WITHOUT VAT, but also lists the total on the road price which I am using here to keep the figures the same as the other brand comparisons.
BMW R1200RT
US - $17,350
UK - £12,695 (base msrp is about £10k, about £2k VAT, and £355 OTR charges)
K1600GT
US - $20,900
UK - £15,740 (base msrp is about £12k, about £2.6k VAT, and £355 OTR charges)
Triumph R3
US - $14,999
UK - £12,529
Triumph R3 Tourer
US - $16,999
UK - £13,529
Personally, I’m not seeing it.
Now Harley seems to be an anomaly here, both because it is the one that is made in the US and exported to the EU, but also because it appears (that at least with some models, like the RKC) they are just RAPING their EU customers for every dime the market can bear.
I mean, jeez, if the dollar is weak against the pound you would expect they COULD be cheaper than the US, or at least competitive, but look at the swing in prices (I guess we have to remember VAT makes up much of the swing on the cheaper models). But the RK classic at $17,395 is only £10,733 with exchange, and so maybe £2.5k in VAT, means £6k or so in additional profit. :o
For BMW or Triumph there is more of an equalization – i.e. the US price in dollars is a larger number to help make up the difference between the dollar and pound, but the UK Harley prices (if you exchanged currency) are thousands higher than in the US.
Now, IF we see a pattern in the BMW and Triumph prices (and in the Triumph I picked what might be the new Cali’s closest competitor other than the RK), one might make a guess as the following:
California Custom
US - $16,999 (<--SWAG)
UK - £14,499
Cali 1400 Tourer
US - $17,999 (<--SWAG)
UK - £16,529 (<--SWAG)
This would price is at about RK levels (note the RK is priced slightly different from the RK classic priced above, it goes for $17,699-18,504).
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No more time for prototypes.
(http://images18.fotki.com/v457/photos/4/454864/1602372/ek3sr9-vi.jpg)
Definitive bike, at least for the touring version. Picture taken in Genova, where the bike was to be photographed for the official catalog.
OK, that looks MUCH BETTER!!!
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No more time for prototypes.
(http://images18.fotki.com/v457/photos/4/454864/1602372/ek3sr9-vi.jpg)
Definitive bike, at least for the touring version. Picture taken in Genova, where the bike was to be photographed for the official catalog.
WOW... that is a great looking cruiser... Right up there with HD, Trump, and the UJMs
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WOW. A stunning bike. Much nicer than the prototype pics. Count me in as a potential buyer.
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its a pretty dang sexy looking bike for sure.
top loading sidebags not too much chrome
Hope the dealer here gets one next year would like to see it in person.
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WOW. A stunning bike. Much nicer than the prototype pics. Count me in as a potential buyer.
:+1 I am not normally a cruiser fan, but I really like the looks of this one, especially with the hard bags.
Bruce
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She cleaned up nicely. ;D
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Much better than the previous pictures. Looks like they even have the windshield angle right to prevent buffeting. Now, if they can just do something about that paint scheme. Doesn't sit well with me, nor does the skunk stripe on the seat. Oh well, nothing a competent painter and upholsterer coudn't deal with. I want it and have started saving my pennies. Any chance of it making it to the US before mid 2013?
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From that angle it looks mighty nice - as cruisers go.
A front / side view might still make me change my mind though.
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+ + + Great looking ! very nice.
Roberto.
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Looks much better in the latest pic but that vertical line through the mid section of the bike still bugs me. Beyond my comprehension that in all this time, and through all the design reviews that must have gone on, that someone didn't address that. Seems it would have been very easy to do in a number of ways.
Hopefully it will be less noticeable in person. I almost always like Guzzi's better in person than in pics.
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Looks much better in the latest pic but that vertical line through the mid section of the bike still bugs me....
Hopefully it will be less noticeable in person. I almost always like Guzzi's better in person than in pics.
Now that I've seen a picture of the final version, fully clothed, I actually LIKE the vertical line behind the engine bay. It frames the engine nicely. To me, it's like a windowed opening to the mechanicals of the beast. Kinda like the bodywork was peeled back to reveal it. In addition, those side covers remind me of the covers from a prior California model (California II, maybe?), so the heritage is there. I also think the covers below the side covers are hiding the least attractive part of the drive train, so I'm OK with them, as well.
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Showed my wife the picture and she said wow!
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Not a big fan of the older California, but this beast is growing on me. And I wanted to go smaller. Damn! Gotta sit on one now.
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For the price; I'd probably go with a Stelvio though. More room for my long inseam.
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http://www.tlm.nl/verkoop/nieuws/186/
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Wow, after all these years they finally brought back the Ambassador.
Cool,
Mark
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http://www.tlm.nl/verkoop/nieuws/186/
Liking it more and more :drool
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http://www.tlm.nl/verkoop/nieuws/186/
AHHH - the Euro Pricing is interesting
€ 12.100 California Custom
€ 13.500 California Touring
€ 14.270 California Touring (Ambassador)
Standard equipment Custom
ABS, Traction Control, Ride by Wire, single seat, 6 gears.
Extras Touring
Wide handle bar, touringseat with white band, handgrips for passenger, 35L integrated bag set, windscreen.
Extras Touring Ambassador
Cruise control, chrome front crash bars, chrome bag protectors, anti theft system, additional headlights, stripes on tank.
We are ready to take your orders for the California 1400 now !!!
I'm now REALLY curious about US pricing...
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The prices mentioned are net of VAT which I believe is 19% in the Netherlands- maybe a Dutch poster could confirm this.
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yes prices there are without vat, depending on where it goes, you will pay local vat over it or the dutch 21% from next month, was 19%, and if it stays in holland, we pay an extra 19% luxery tax on it.
Then it looks including 21 %
€ 16.790 California Custom
€ 18.790 California Touring
€ 19.790 California Touring (Ambassador)
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Wow, after all these years they finally brought back the Ambassador.
Cool,
Mark
I really wish they hadn't used the Ambassador name on that. I guess Eldorado was taken...
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I really wish they hadn't used the Ambassador name on that.
Why?
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i think they've cracked it by jingo, three cheers for the boys from mandello.
john
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Guzzi has such a great reputation for getting things right the first time out. Like the new technology hydraulic lifters?
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Guzzi has such a great reputation for getting things right the first time out. Like the new technology hydraulic lifters?
Are you ever happy?
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I like it. The full blown touring model even has cruise on it. Now lets see a pearl white. ;D
Zoom Zoom,
John Henry
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I'm not even a cruiser fan, and I like it. That engine is so in your face.
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Not too bad in my book. I'd like to see it in person. It's a modernized version of an old theme.
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I think TLM have removed the article on their website for some reason Carl.
It had a few headlines from the spec sheet that has been sent to dealers.
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I didn't find it at all. Where does one look?
Scroll up.
Zoom Zoom,
John Henry
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AHHH - the Euro Pricing is interesting
I'm now REALLY curious about US pricing...
Comparing every other item from MG, the US figures should be equal. But in US$. Just add your local taxes. ;-T
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Comparing every other item from MG, the US figures should be equal. But in US$. Just add your local taxes. ;-T
Are you saying
$12.100 California Custom
$13.500 California Touring
$14.270 California Touring (Ambassador)
OR
$16.790 California Custom
$18.790 California Touring
$19.790 California Touring (Ambassador)
I would think the first is too optimistic and the later is too expensive
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What Kev said.
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From a marketing standpoint, it would make sense for Moto Guzzi to price the nuovo California in line with their current big block offerings in the U.S.A.
In my mind, that means the base model should be priced like the Griso 8V SE ($12,500), the deluxe model should be priced like the Stelvio NTX ($15,500), and the mid-range model should be priced somewhere in the middle (say, $14,000).
Those prices would be in line with the Euro pricing before VAT. In addition, they would undercut the competition in this country -- hopefully enough to get people's attention.
At $15,500, I can imagine a prospective Harley or Victory customer looking at the California Ambassador, and thinking that it's an excellent value. Maybe that, and some favorable reviews in the motoring press, can overcome what are likely to be some of the objections to purchase. ("Moto who?" "Where are the dealers?" "It's Italian; parts must cost a fortune and will be impossible to get.")
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http://blog.motorcycle.com/2012/03/21/design/designer-galluzzi-discusses-the-new-moto-guzzi-california-1400-video/
The headlight looks like an Ambo police dash. Can't say I am a fan of it.
Jim
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Nero style:
(http://s11.postimage.org/ohjbsoflr/Cal_14_Nero.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ohjbsoflr/)
Kind of reminds me of a 1960s Lincoln Continental...
(http://s9.postimage.org/xb68jkmy3/gangsta_lincoln.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/xb68jkmy3/)
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Do you suppose the panniers open toward the front?
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I like it ;-T
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Foul! Look at the two pics. The two bikes are in exactly the same spot, the shadows are exactly the same. There are not two bikes. There is one bike, and a photoshop all black bs pic.
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Who claimed it was anything but a photo-chop?
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It's a pretty good photoshop, except for the front wheel looks a bit garish. Know body said, look here is what it looks like in Nero that I photo shopped.
I assumed it was been passed off as the real deal, doubt I'm alone, but I could be.
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It's just a photo I snagged from Vintage Motorcycle Online. I didn't take time learn if it was PS, or not.
It looks photoshopped to me, as there are no OEM whitewalls in those sizes, and they don't look like "porta-walls"...
I just liked the look, and it reminded me of that '69 Continental I'd recently seen.
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Relax. It's called a design exercise. Enjoy it for what it is.
If you really want one, download the image and send it to Piaggio Group with a polite note. You never know....
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No need to relax, no one is worked up. It's not a design exercise, it's a photoshop paint job. :)
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It's not a design exercise, it's a photoshop paint job. :)
Are the two mutually exclusive? This is news to me.
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(http://s18.postimage.org/gi9a0wvxh/092812_2013_moto_guzzi_california_1400_tourer.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/gi9a0wvxh/)
this looks like my kind of machine.......the next new bike may be one of these (job security willing!!)
CS
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merged
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My calvin just got nervous
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While in Mandello at Agostini a new Cali and factory rider showed up ("Sorry Nelson, no photo's"). I have to say that in the flesh the new Cali is very impressive and Veeeeeery big. No photo I've seen does the bike justice and in the black and white color scheme without a shield or bags, it is very nice, not my cup of tea but very nice. I watched the factory rider fishtail the machine down the road, very impressive acceleration and wonderful exhaust note.
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Oooh, in the flesh and no pics >:(
Very big eh?
Interesting.
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Oooh, in the flesh and no pics >:(
Very big eh?
Interesting.
Huge! I was not allowed to take photo's so ya have to trust me Kev, I did get to touch it though ;D The bags and windscreen ruin the looks of the bike in my opinion. If marketed right here in America, I think it would/could give HD a run for their money. Very modern motorcycle, nice gauge setup, rear tire is massive! :o
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Allowed? Was this on a public street?
Well, the DID let you touch it and didn't rush away so that's something.
Can't wait to get some real specs and see one in person.
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Allowed? Was this on a public street?
Well, the DID let you touch it and didn't rush away so that's something.
Can't wait to get some real specs and see one in person.
It was in Agostini's shop driveway, I was told to leave my camera at the service desk. Locals in Mandello are well informed about the new Cali and later that afternoon while walking the streets of Mandello I spotted the facory rider on it again hot throttling around Mandello. I decided to respect their wishes and not photograph it. I suspect though that my photo's wouldn't have been any better than what you've already seen on the web, photo's just don't do it justice at all.
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No, I get being polite and all... but damn the temptation woulda been.
I think I would have begged just for a picture of me sitting on it... how could they say no?
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When you say it is big, do you mean wide and long? I have been assuming it isn't very tall. How did the ground clearance look?
Any first hand information helps.
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When you say it is big, do you mean wide and long? I have been assuming it isn't very tall. How did the ground clearance look?
Any first hand information helps.
Very low seat height and very wide and very long. The tank is huge but it appears that it would't be in the way of comfort like having to spread your knees. As big as it is, it seems to be rather narrow in the seat area. It had a few too many lights for my taste but I don't know if the extra lights are standard or an option. That said, stripped down to it's bare necessities, it's an awesome looking bike. Cruisers aren't my thing anymore but if I were in the market for one, the new Cali would certainly be at the top of my list, maybe right up there with the Triumph Rocket III, another enormous machine. I like that neither of the two have scrimped on performance.
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Thanks.
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That is why you have to see a bike in person. In the pictures, the bike, to me, looks better dressed out. Thanks for the update.
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WOW, are you saying it's going to be RIII massive in size?
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I wonder if those new mags will be compatible with Tonti Calis? Likely not with that huge rear tire...
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WOW, are you saying it's going to be RIII massive in size?
Pretty damn big Kev.
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I wonder if those new mags will be compatible with Tonti Calis? Likely not with that huge rear tire...
I've seen 18 wheelers that use smaller wheels ;D I didn't really care for the wheels at first, still not sold on them, personally, I prefer spoked rims over mags except on my Daytona 675.
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Haven't heard anything new for awhile.
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Is it actually behind schedule? ???
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Piaggio is planning a BIG international reveal at there Pasadena design center in December.
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IMHO, they went back to the drawing board....sorta like what Hollywood does with a test audience for a new movie. I do not believe Piaggio or MG's honchos like the initial reactions to the 1400 Cali.
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IMHO, they went back to the drawing board....sorta like what Hollywood does with a test audience for a new movie. I do not believe Piaggio or MG's honchos like the initial reactions to the 1400 Cali.
I would like to know how you came to that conclusion?
From all the pics that have been published in the Cali 1400 thread, the prototypes are out there and running!
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I hear it is coming, in a big way!! Some folks went to new Cali 14 school, so hold on it'll be here soon enough. You didn't here it from me. May be my next new one, last one was 94, it's about time. Nothing like a new bike, could even be my next sidecar rig tug.
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Yea, what Steve said!
Expect the splash Piaggio makes with the 1400 to be the largest you have ever seen for a Guzzi. 8)
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IMHO, they went back to the drawing board...
Well, considering the overwhelmingly positive reaction to the Cali 1400, the fact that the test mules running around Lake Como for the past month or two appear to be production-ready, and the anticipated unveilings of the production bike at EIMCA 2012 in Milan in November and in Pasedena in December, this is either wishful thinking on your part, uninformed speculation, or a joke.
Also, how can you have an opinion about whether something has occurred? Either Piaggio has abandoned the design that they have been testing for the past two months, or they haven't. Do you have any evidence that they have gone "back to the drawing board?"
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They will intruduce it at the Eicma show in milan in November. It was ready a year ago. I made a picture of the screen from a designer laptop at the GMG, that one looks exactly the same as the latest pictures. Well engine is now black, rest is the same.
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So what is the hold up on the new California?
Haven't heard anything new for awhile.
We have a thread for that...
Merged.
The finished bikes will be shown in November at EICMA and availablity should be announced about the same time...
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New "Green" version just announced:(http://www2.antiquesnavigator.com/ebay/images/2010/150535791534.jpg)
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Today on motociclismo:
But it was to play with the colors, the shape. Today we are able to give very concrete substance. Indeed, we are in possession of information that reveal a lot about how it is made the new California, especially the Touring version, numbers accurate enough that finally shed light on a motorcycle enthusiasts (and dealers ...) were really waiting for years. And this without detracting from the Stelvio or Norge, not to mention the V7.
ENGINE AND PERFORMANCE
The engine, of course V2 transverse of 90 °, should have displacement of 1,380 cc, obtained by increasing to 104 mm the cylinder bore of the valve 1200 8. Stroke unchanged at 81.2 mm. The distribution would be pushrod and rocker, while the power exploit two spark plugs per cylinder. The cooling air and oil, you can see very well from the photos, but the radiator lubricant would be equipped with a fan and the circuit would adopt an independent pump in support of the refrigerant.
The compression would stand on the value of 10.5:1 and the new V2 would be able to develop 96 hp at 6500 rpm and 120 Nm (12.3 kgm) at 2750 rpm. Approval euro-3.
ELECTRONIC
The power is unavoidably electronic injection, with throttle bodies that should be from 52 mm and a control unit which would allow the use of 3 maps interchangeable, as well as the implementation of the traction control and cruise control. All of course controlled by the accelerator ride by wire. Among the electronic equipment there is also the alarm.
TRANSMISSION
The final course is shaft drive, with single plate clutch, while the 6-speed would change, then one more today, but the sixth would be more of an overdrive.
CHASSIS
The frame would be a classic double-cradle with engine fixed with silent block and the suspensions are traditional (they say the photo), the stems should measure 46 mm. The rear shock absorbers, lost for the sophisticated pneumatic system seen on the prototypes, are very normal unit only adjustable preload. Stand out, always from the photos, the radial front brake calipers 4-piston, but the gem would be the ABS as standard. The wheels were 18 "at the front and 16" at the rear, with this tire 200/60.
DIMENSIONS AND WEIGHT
That California is a 1400 ... Motona there is no doubt, and measurements confirm this. Starting with the frame geometry, the distance would reach the large share of 1,685 mm, with 155 mm of trail and tube inclination of 32 °. Physical measurements would not be outdone: length 2445 mm, width (with bags) 1,030 mm. The seat would be instead to human height: 740 mm, 720 with optional low seat. Sore point for the weight: California 1400 would stop the scales at 337 kg in running order (with all equipment, 322 kg dry weight). The tank contains 20.5 liters.
EQUIPMENT AND VERSIONS
The data that we have given refer to the Touring version, as mentioned, the model for travel and better equipped, and the most refined aesthetic level. The color is black with white stripes on the tank, but the bike is also characterized by the two-tone seat with chrome handle, the 35 liter panniers with protective chrome bars para engine, additional lights, the windscreen and the wide handlebar .
PRICE AND AVAILABILITY
The Moto Guzzi California 1400 will be in dealerships in mid-November, but already in ten days some firms larger or more will receive the first historical examples. So the bike will be visible and touchable ... even before the show in Milan, as well as ordered by November 2. But probably not testable. For the Italian market will do no more than 200 a year, the rest of the production will go abroad with the hope of digging out the United States.
Finally, the price: should reach € 19,300 ex-dealer. Always the Touring version, it is assumed that the "base" is more affordable.
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Today on motociclismo:
DIMENSIONS AND WEIGHT
That California is a 1400 ... Motona there is no doubt, and measurements confirm this. Starting with the frame geometry, the distance would reach the large share of 1,685 mm, with 155 mm of trail and tube inclination of 32 °. Physical measurements would not be outdone: length 2445 mm, width (with bags) 1,030 mm. The seat would be instead to human height: 740 mm, 720 with optional low seat. Sore point for the weight: California 1400 would stop the scales at 337 kg in running order (with all equipment, 322 kg dry weight). The tank contains 20.5 liters.
My Goodness! 1685mm wheelbase = 66.34-inches! :o
Overall length of 2445mm = 8-feet! (96-inches)
Seat height will be 29.13-inches standard, and 28.35 for the low.
337kg = about 741 lbs.
:pop
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Our current guesses:
Rocker - 63/64 inch wheelbase, 26 inch seat height, 600-lbs wet.
Me (from previous thread) - 63" WB, 29" seat height, 650 lbs wet. (I might revise my seat height guess down to 27-28")
Comparatives:
Cal-Vin - 61.4" WB, 30.7" seat height, 616 lbs wet
FLD (Switchback) - 62.8" WB, 27.4" seat height, 718 lbs wet
Victory Judge - 64.8" WB, 25.9" seat height, ~700 lbs wet estimate
FLHR (Road King) - 63.5" WB, 28" seat height, 812 lbs wet
Victory CrossRoads - 65.7 WB, 26.25" seat height, ~800 lbs wet estimate
So maybe we're coloring our estimates with our wishes, but IF it comes out anything like Rocker or I are guesses it will be a little larger/longer/heavier than the current Tonti Calis, BUT it shouldn't be anywhere near the RK or Crossroads - perhaps putting it closer to the Dyna touring bike (FLD) or Judge.
I think we all hope it doesn't lose much or any cornering clearance.
Honestly, if it fits that bill, I think it will remain a unique and desirable alternative to the FULL BOAT tourers.
I guess it's going to be longer and heavier than either of us imagined...
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Yup, running the numbers became a real eye openner.
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Wow, that is big...to me the only really troubling number is the wheelbase...
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If those specs are correct, it looks like they're going after the Giant cruiser market. Maybe they'll do a wild full faired version and call it the California Vision. It's a handsome motorbike but if I did want something in that category, I'm not sure what would make me choose it over one of the others.
The air/oil cooling system sounds complex enough (pumps and fans) where they should have just gone water cooled. Then maybe they could have gotten some more power out of it and been more competitive with other giant cruisers.
I wish em the best of luck but I don't see it as anything I'll be lining up to buy.
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Wow, this sounds like the one for me for 2 up long distance touring. Guess I better think about selling the EV.
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If those specs are correct, it looks like they're going after the Giant cruiser market.
Yeah, and 1400ccs ain't gonna provide much cred in that market...
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Yeah, and 1400ccs ain't gonna provide much cred in that market...
Well, hp and torque figures are competitive, and it still weighs a bit less than the competition. I just wish it weighed a lot less....
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Well, hp and torque figures are competitive, and it still weighs a bit less than the competition. I just wish it weighed a lot less....
I've yet to have any cruiser pirate ask me about HP in a Guzzi (or any other bike). They always ask about CCs.
They all think Guzzis are little bitty bikes with only 1100 - 1200 CCs.
:D
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seems big & heavy.....not a sporty Cali but a cruiser........
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Motociclismo printed the specs on the 1400, I remember337kg=742lbs wet and just shy of 30" on the seat height, 96hp and 120Newton Meters of torque, its a powerful porker for sure.
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I had a chance today to look at the frame and motor manual, 3" thick, book!! Holy Tomolli, rubber mounted motor & trans, roller rockers, cams have a spring to keep no end float. Kind of a cool bike, you can crab the frame. Peak torque at like 2750 rpm and hp is at 6500, looks like a stump puller and a 200 rear tire. AND it's coming.
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19300 euros = 25007.0100 US dollars
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19300 euros = 25007.0100 US dollars
USA pricing gets discussed ad nauseum. There is not a direct conversion because we don't know what the USA importer will do on pricing.
European pricing always includes a 17% VAT, so that brings it immediately down to 20750.
If you look at Euro and USA pricing, though, you'll see that they're usually very close.
If 19300 Euro is the real European price, I wouldn't be surprised to see the bike priced in the USA at 18900, or so.
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That wheelbase puts it .5" shy of a Goldwing. I guess that means Guzzi has created a "Vino-wing"
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I had a chance today to look at the frame and motor manual, 3" thick, book!! Holy Tomolli, rubber mounted motor & trans, roller rockers, cams have a spring to keep no end float. Kind of a cool bike, you can crab the frame. Peak torque at like 2750 rpm and hp is at 6500, looks like a stump puller and a 200 rear tire. AND it's coming.
So, sounds like it was just as I suspected. Looks like the roller followers that have been listed in the parts pages for all the 4VPC engines for a year are going to be adopted across the range after the Cali is launched.
Like Nelson I'm no Cruiser fan but I'm certainly looking forward to getting my hands on one!!!
Pete
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If you want to play in the deep end of the pool you have to come ready. Bitch if you will, but it looks like this bike is posed to take on the big players, something MG has not bee able to do for a long time. Let it play out, and then in June we might very well know how it worked, but there is no point in spending your load now.
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I will hopefully get to sit on one next weekend and will take a few pics.
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Wow, that is big...to me the only really troubling number is the wheelbase...
Told ya! :D
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Told ya! :D
Yup, but you are wrong about sooo many things that I was hoping this was one of them... :-* ;) :BEER:
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If the extra length of the Cali 1400 translates to a better two-up experienced than the Tonti California (IMO, the Tonti-framed bike is okay for two-up, but could be better), then I don't have a problem with it.
I don't have a problem with any of the specs except weight. I'm glad the dresser model is lighter than a Road King (the obvious competitor), but I wish it was at least 100 lbs lighter. However, as long as the suspension is firmer than the pillow-soft RK, and the lean angles are greater, the weight shouldn't be that big of a deal.
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If the extra length of the Cali 1400 translates to a better two-up experienced than the Tonti California (IMO, the Tonti-framed bike is okay for two-up, but could be better), than I don't have a problem with it.
I don't have a problem with any of the specs except weight. I'm glad the dresser model is lighter than a Road King (the obvious competitor), but I wish it was at least 100 lbs lighter. However, as long as the suspension is firmer than the pillow-soft RK, and the lean angles are greater, the weight shouldn't be that big of a deal.
+1. I think the current Tonti framed Cali's make a very poor two up motorcycle. I have zero interest in the Stelvio even though some say it does ok for two up duty. Bring on the big bad 'new' California.
Mark
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I just have to wonder if they needed to add 2-3 inches more wheelbase than even the RK (an excellent 2-up machine) to get there.
It's almost as if they said, ok, the competition has a couple inches more wheelbase than us, HEY, LET'S NOT ONLY MATCH EM, LET'S BEAT EM...
It's just a LOT of wheelbase.
I guess I've moved from the "cautiously optimistic camp" to the "hope I like it better in person" camp.
On the other hand, maybe it makes the FLD look even better in my book - just have to fit dual discs to it along with a taller suspension.
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My Goodness! 1685mm wheelbase = 66.34-inches! :o
So, I win the wheelbase-guessing prize, having estimated 66.1 [edit] inches from the old photo? Yes?
Moto
Here was my calculation:
I'll give the wheelbase estimation a shot. It is 66 inches, plus or minus 1.25 [edit: 1.5] inches. Please bear with me while I explain my method in some detail.
One thing to remember is the difference between the size of the rim where it seats and the diameter of the visible wheel from the side. It's about an inch difference. An 18 inch rim measures about 19 inches viewed from the side. (I just confirmed this rough rule on my Griso: [edit] the rim for its 17 inch front tire is about 18 inches viewed from the side.)
I'll use Carl's first photo, the one with red overlaid lines. Though Carl's shot is nicely scaled to make the front wheel round, this correction doesn't matter in estimating the wheelbase so long as all measurements are made along the horizontal line drawn through the axes.
One problem with the shot is that the front axle does not appear to be at the midpoint of the circle drawn around the rim, because of the angle at which the original photo was taken. So it would be better not to use the center of the axle for the calculations, but rather the center of the circle itself.
What size are the wheels? The front rim measures 54 mm on my laptop screen when blown up to the size I'll use, while the rear is only 50 mm. So I'd agree with the earlier judgement that the front is probably an 18 and the rear a 17 inch tire. This is the biggest, most important assumption of my calculation. Another important assumption is that the front wheel is pointed straight ahead, as it appears to me to be.
My method will be to measure the distance between the rear edge of the front wheel to the rear edge of the rear wheel, which is 186 mm on my screen. I will then account for the different diameters of the two visible wheel rims by adding 54/2 to the measurement to reach the center of the front wheel circle, and subtracting 50/2 to reach the center of the rear wheel circle. This gives a scaled wheel base of 186 + 27 - 25 = 188 mm.
Then on the assumption the front wheel is an 18 inch rim, I will assume the visible rim in the picture is approximately 19 inches in diameter. Since the visible front rim is 54 mm on my screen, the scale is found by the ratio of that distance to 19 inches. Converting the screen measurement to inches while making the calculation gives a scale of (54/25.4) / 19 = 0.1119.
Using this result, the estimated wheel base is 188 / 0.1119 = 1680 mm, or 66.1 inches. (!)
I will try to quantify how much error might be in my estimate. The measurements on the screen are good to +/- 0.5 mm, or about 1/4 inch of real length. Since a sum of inaccurate measurements is part of my method, the final error could be larger (or smaller). But the assumption that the visible front rim is 19 inches is only a rough guess. If it were between the values of 18.75 and 19.25, my estimated wheel base would fall between 64.75 and 67.25 [edit: 67.50] inches, also allowing for the +/- 0.5 mm inaccuracy of my measurements on the screen and the summing of terms.
There you have it: 66 inches. My method (along with my data, the photo itself and the measurements I took from it) is laid out for any criticisms that may come to mind, for which I would be grateful.
I thought about using my slide rule, but didn't. :)
Moto
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So, I win the wheelbase-guessing prize, having estimated 66.1 [edit] inches from the old photo? Yes?
YUP :bow, but I'm SOOOO sorry you were right... ;)
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YUP :bow, but I'm SOOOO sorry you were right... ;)
:+1
:BEER:
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+1. I think the current Tonti framed Cali's make a very poor two up motorcycle. I have zero interest in the Stelvio even though some say it does ok for two up duty. Bring on the big bad 'new' California.
Mark
I wouldn't say "poor," but this probably depends on the size, weight, and expectations of the two people on the bike. YMMV.
For me, I find that my Cali is okay for two-up. I think it would be even nicer with a better seat, which I am investigating. (I am leaning towards a Ned's Comfort Seat. Just need to reconcile my wants with the $400 price tag.)
What I find to be a problem is putting my feet down at a stop. For me, there isn't enough space between my passenger's foot on the passenger pegs, and the area behind the floorboards, for me to put my feet down behind the floorboard without the back of my calves bumping against the toes of my passenger. I can avoid this if I put my feet down to the outside of the floorboards, but the seat is too high for me to do that and flat-foot the bike at a stop. So, I either accept the contact and try to ignore it, or balance the bike on the balls of my feet. It's a design compromise that I am willing to live with. I don't ride two-up very often, and I appreciate the nimbleness of my Cali. For what it is, I think it handles great.
I hope that the extra length of the new 1400 went toward better two-up comfort. Otherwise, what's the point? As long as that sweet Cali handling has not been compromised, IMO, the wheelbase and the weight are just numbers on a page.
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Not comprehensive but nice pic and a couple specs:
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/11/moto-guzzi-california-1400-production-imminent-engine-specs-revealed/
(merged) R59
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Here is another bit: http://cmgonline.com/news/2012/11/02/moto-guzzi-california-1400-specs-released/ (http://cmgonline.com/news/2012/11/02/moto-guzzi-california-1400-specs-released/)
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I for one would be looking to replace my 700# 1700cc Yamaha RoadStar with one of the new 1400s. Sounds like Guzzi hit the sweet spot...
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+1. I think the current Tonti framed Cali's make a very poor two up motorcycle.
Mark
"Poor" compared to what, a Goldwing? Just more fuel for the subjective fire, but me and my wife have found the Calis to be the best 2-up bikes we've ever driven together. And too, though 2-up comfort is almost as personal as taste, I do believe we had a poll or something to that effect on wg some time ago and while answers varied tremendously as expected, I "think" I recall correctly that the Calis were judged as the slim overall winner for 2-up work. But I agree this new and longer version of the Cali offers some interesting prospects.
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"Poor" compared to what, a Goldwing? Just more fuel for the subjective fire, but me and my wife have found the Calis to be the best 2-up bikes we've ever driven together. And too, though 2-up comfort is almost as personal as taste, I do believe we had a poll or something to that effect on wg some time ago and while answers varied tremendously as expected, I "think" I recall correctly that the Calis were judged as the slim overall winner for 2-up work.
As you asked - overall winner for 2-up work, compared to WHAT?
Jenn and I certainly took a trip or two on the Jackal 2-up before she started riding her own (was that one of the motivating factors of getting her own license, hmmm, dunno).
But there's no question something like a Road King/FLH is more comfortable for me (and probably most people).
I know, I know, some people toured 2-up on 350s too, whatever, no thanks.
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As you asked - overall winner for 2-up work, compared to WHAT?
Sorry I did not clarify in my earlier post. I meant in comparison to other MGs. Here's the thread, "What is the best 2-up bike in all of Guzzidom". Nothing definitive here by any means since everyone's tomato is someone else's potato, or something like that ;D but I'm just saying that I believe most folks would generally say the Cali is a good if not great 2-up bike. New one, likely even better.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=33883.0
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I was being rhetorical. :BEER:
I'm sure many consider it great, but it was far from other benchmark touring bikes in the industry.
Though obviously many here thought that was a good thing.
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Is it just me, or is it somewhat Runesque?
California 1400
(http://www.motorcycledaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/031412middle-730x516.jpg)
Honda Rune
(http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewBikeCatalogue/2003/Honda/Rune/Rune_RHS.jpg)
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I dunno about that comparison but it is going to Ruin the competition, right? ;D
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Not even remotely.
Front end, tank shapes, fenders, suspension, headlight, bar positions, motor etc all different.
The shape of the muffler is about the only real similarity.
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Because the passengers toes nearly always rub, hit or interfere with the riders calves when stopped, the Tonti bikes get very poor marks from me as a 2 up motorcycle. If it works for, great, enjoy. From the few side pictures that have been posted of the Cali 1400, this issue 'could' finally be resolved.
I see very little in common with the styling of the Honda Rune and the new Guzzi California 1400. But I sure am anxious to see this new Guzzi in person.
YMMV,
Mark
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so here is the first offficial picture:
http://www.motociclismo.it/moto-guzzi-california-1400-la-prima-foto-ufficiale-moto-53193
(http://www.motociclismo.it/cache/gallery/4/5/7/7/piaggioeicma-02.jpg_2000.jpg)
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Not bad...
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;-T. I like it
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With the skunk seat, it's got that "don't mess with success" California Vintage look.
They should get Tony Soprano on it for their adverts!
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The passing light mounts are horrible. Otherwise, it looks good.
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Looks well thought out. Actually, when weighed against previous attempts into the cruiser market, this bike is far and away supreme. It looks better than the british Thunderbird, and on par, or close to any H-D, and far better than the majority of big cruiser from Asia. The wind screen looks good, maybe it will work well too! 8)
I still think this bike may turn out to be the biggest hit in modern MG history. Looks like the new v7 line is doing very well, to the point that sales must be up by double digits, perhaps big doubles, but I think this bike may go even bigger.
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The passing light mount looks so that the light will vibrate off after a short time. Maybe it's made better then the picture shows.
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Nice enough but I wonder if it can lure me away from my Calvin once I see it in person. I'm kinda thinkin' not at this point but one never can tell.
(http://s7.postimage.org/4bi8581uv/piaggioeicma_02_jpg_2000.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4bi8581uv/)
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I was thinking the same as Cruzzi, but if its larger it may fit my frame better. I do love my Calvin and my list of complaints is very short. However, more leg room and longer suspension travel (anybody know?) on such a beautiful bike may just lure me away.
I like it.
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My first thought was maybe the spot light bracket can be rotated 180 degrees as the lights look a bit odd mounted so low. Otherwise, bring it on and bring it over in white.
Mark
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Maybe its just the angle of the photo, but does the front crashbar look oddly proportioned? Doesnt look as if it would provide much head/valve cover protection. But otherwise its looking good. And does that appear to be a flip out floorboard or passenger peg there in front of the saddlebag?
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Still think it looks great.
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Note the mag wheels. Tubeless tires will be a plus.
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more pictures, a white too:
http://www.moto-station.com/cgi-bin/photos/images_MS.cgi?direct=Fonds_ecran/Motos/Motos_serie_plus_de_125/Moto_Guzzi/Moto_Guzzi_California_1400
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Not bad in white either.
(http://www.moto-station.com/cgi-bin/photos/imageLeech.cgi?source=IF&ct=1352469883&file=/Fonds_ecran/Motos/Motos_serie_plus_de_125/Moto_Guzzi/Moto_Guzzi_California_1400/moto_guzzi_california_1400_5.jpg)
Jenn took one look and asked "hey why did they make the headlight shaped like a Harley bar and shield?" lol
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Not bad in white either.
(http://www.moto-station.com/cgi-bin/photos/imageLeech.cgi?source=IF&ct=1352469883&file=/Fonds_ecran/Motos/Motos_serie_plus_de_125/Moto_Guzzi/Moto_Guzzi_California_1400/moto_guzzi_california_1400_5.jpg)
Jenn took one look and asked "hey why did they make the headlight shaped like a Harley bar and shield?" lol
I like it in white. I'll bet traffic will pull out of the way when they see one of these police lookalikes approaching from behind! P:) :+=copcar
Bruce
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That looks great in white - the colour helps to define the shape of the bike a little better, I think.
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Ok from the top she looks like Sophia Loren with those big jugs and those big hips, damn there goes my money. Hope there is a matching top box to finish off a great motorcycle.
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I think she looks better in white for some reason. Really want to know how she handles.
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I think I know why some here seem to be liking the white version better than the black.
Remember the comments about how the bike looks like it is cut in half, with the vertical lines of the side covers and the lower (swing arm?) covers lining up with the seat to make it look like two bikes grafted together? Well, that never really bothered me, but it seemed to bother quite a few people.
Now, compare the black and the white versions. The white one has white side covers and black lower covers; this breaks up the cut-in-half look that some objected to. In fact, with the white side covers, the black lower covers now look like they flow from the black transmission case, so the eye is now drawn to the horizontal line, rather than the vertical.
At least, that's the visual impression that I get. Any other opinions?
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It also helps define other shapes on the bike, like the tank shape.
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I was getting all lathered up over the black paint, now they go and show us a white one. VIntage Hondas are up for sale. How much will the year end bonus be? Where's my banker's phone number? More importantly, WHEN WILL IT GET HERE?
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It also helps define other shapes on the bike, like the tank shape.
I think you're right about the tank, but the difference is less extreme than with the side covers. IMO, the polished cooling fins and faux valve covers of the 1400 mill do a good job of making the jugs stand out from the black tank. However, as the engine is all-black, the white bike does manage to show the entire engine off a little bit more than the black bike.
What I don't like about the white bike is how it also shows off the front fender extender. As to the look of the front fender, IMO the black bike looks better, as the extender blends in with the black fender and makes the line of the fender flow better. I also think the black side bags look better against the chrome guards than the white bags.
To be clear: I am nit-picking. Tough choice. They're both gorgeous.
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I LIKE the white bike!!!
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The tank hugs the jugs like a lover on a runaway weekend. Pure sex.
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ok infomotori posted the naked one too:
http://www.infomotori.com/moto/2012/11/09/moto-guzzi-california-1400/2/3/
(http://foto.infomotori.com/photo/2012/11/09/cache/Moto-Guzzi-California-1400-Custom-6___newformat.jpg)
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Ooooh! I like that one, too. A few subtle changes, and it goes from tourer to power cruiser. Beating Harley at its own game.
But... are you sure that's a picture of a production model? I thought the adjustable rear shocks with remote reservoirs did not make the final cut.
Nevermind. The article says that the "Custom" model will have the remote reservoir shocks.
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:o
(http://s17.postimage.org/iqqrkofd7/Moto_Guzzi_California_1400_Custom_7_newformat.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/iqqrkofd7/)
Oh.....my....
I said I would only ever need my V11 Lemans. :-\
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more pictures, a white too:
http://www.moto-station.com/cgi-bin/photos/images_MS.cgi?direct=Fonds_ecran/Motos/Motos_serie_plus_de_125/Moto_Guzzi/Moto_Guzzi_California_1400
Penderic - the Moto station pics show the license plate mounting.
Looks like they copied my Jackal mounting it to the bag racks. :D
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:drool
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Windshield is ugly w/mounting, no more nice sidestand and there is no centerstand.
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I am in love with the white one. The naked one looks mean as hell tho. I don't think I'd own one anytime soon unless I won the lotto but I would love for of you old rich retired folk to let me take a spin! ;D :BEER:
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Lots of information about the new California 1400 at that infomotori.com site (as translated):
Moto Guzzi California 1400 at EICMA 2012
He made his debut at EICMA 2012 (November 13 to 18), the new generation of Moto Guzzi California.
A new project that aims to redefine the style of the Italian brand of Mandello del Lario, the concept of luxury motorcycles.
Two versions from the opposite one another: Moto Guzzi California and 1400 Moto Guzzi California Touring 1400 Custom.
Produced and assembled by hand in Italy, revived the Moto Guzzi brand, one of the most ancient and noble history of motorcycling in the market moticiclistico world.
New Moto Guzzi California 1400
The new Moto Guzzi California 1400 is impressive, unique, capable of enhancing the elements of nobility of a historic brand owned Italian heritage.
More than any other model Moto Guzzi California represents the values and strength of the brand of Mandello del Lario: style, comfort, reliability and performance, thanks to the ability to combine the comfort and the ability to load a custom motorcycle with the dynamics and performance of a powerful road.
The engine V2 largest in Europe for the Moto Guzzi California
The new Moto Guzzi California 1400 has an unprecedented two-cylinder V-engine of 1380 cm3 [84.21 cu. in.], a record for a twin. Before him, just another engine Aquila had failed to do so (the V2 90 ° 1225 cc of MGS01). The race is the same as 1151 cc but thanks to a well bore of 104 mm, reaches the displacement of 1,380 cc.
The power is 96 hp (71 kW) at 6500 rpm while torque is 120 Nm [90 ft./lbs.] at 2750 rpm.
On the new big bore, and custom sector in particular, debuted the electronic engine management ride by wire multimap, a technological system that allows you to choose between three mapping engine management: Tourism, fast and wet, depending on the style of drive, path, or to environmental situations.
The three different mapping error on the act of torque and engine-braking.
In addition, the imposing California 1400 (337 kg in running order fully equipped [743 lbs], 322 kg dry [710 lbs.]), has traction control (MGCT), another first for this segment custom. The MGCT can be set on three levels of intervention to increase active safety without compromising performance and driving pleasure.
V2 is coupled to a six-speed gearbox (it was in the previous five-speed) with a single plate clutch (first bi-disc) dry with integrated flexible couplings and driving load reduced.
The final drive is shaft drive as usual but has been redesigned to transfer, with maximum smoothness and comfort, the powerful torque of the engine, as well as boast a much more modern appearance and technology.
Cycling: Moto Guzzi California introduces the concept of "Elastic Engine"
Today, with the new 1400 Moto Guzzi California develops a new idea applied to the fixing of the engine to the frame, introducing the concept of "Elastic Engine".
The innovation, introduced to obtain a new standard in terms of ride comfort, consists in fixing the engine to the frame through a unique system of supports elasto-kinematic compounds by a connecting rod front, two lateral connecting rods and a series of rubber buffers that leave swing the engine by filtering all vibration preventing them from being transmitted to the bike and its points of contact with the driver and the passenger.
In addition to ensuring a comfortable ride from the reference frame of the new California has its strength in dynamic rendering, looking for the maximum stiffness obtained from an oversized steering head and swingarm large cross-section.
The frame is a double cradle the shares typically custom: steering angle of 32 °, trail of 155 mm [6.1 in.] and wheelbase of 1685 mm [66.34 in.] well. Units which provide stability and precision when changing direction and due to the low center of gravity and the centrality of the masses is also a surprising maneuverability of a motorcycle of this size.
The saddle height is only 740 mm [29.1 in.] from the ground, is not sufficient to undermine the pilot manipulating the California 1400 to speed pendonale. The ease of ride and handling contribute also reduced vibrations, thanks also to a more prompt response of the motor to the gas.
Magazines also completely Suspension: front is set up a fork, 46 mm [1.8 in.] fork with the generous range of 120 mm [4.72 in.]. Tradition solution for the rear, with a pair of shock absorbers chrome and preload adjustable.
The rims are aluminum alloy. The front is 3.5 "and is equipped with a tire 13/70 18" while the rear, on a circle of 6 "section, is mounted a big tire 200/60 16".
The department operates the braking system is Brembo with a pair of 320 mm front discs with four piston calipers and a single 282 mm disc with a floating caliper with two parallel pistons. For the first time on a Moto Guzzi California, the latest generation ABS.
Design of the new Moto Guzzi California 1400
Imposing, massive, comfortable, bad. I am very adjectives that come to mind look at the first official pictures of the new Moto Guzzi California 1400, but you can not say that it maintains strict legal with its history and its tradition. The aesthetic is different for the two versions: Touring the most sophisticated, the most gangster Custom.
Both, however, share some aspects, such as the large headlight unit polygonal, with lighting LED DRL daytime, as occurs on the car of more recent design.
From earlier versions, you can see some stylistic quotations: the profile of the seat, the chrome handle and side panels inspired by the T3 as well as the relationship between the size of the tank and the engine in favor of it, just like in the style of ancestors V7 and V850.
The tank 21 liter [5.55 gal.] metal is carved showing two lateral sides, on which is built the Eagle logo, shaped the mighty thermal units of the new engine of 1400 cc round head.
The increased wheelbase (+125 mm) [+ 4.92 in.] helps to make smarter, more streamlined side view of the new Moto Guzzi California. Moreover, the two discharges do not go unnoticed transparencies that terminate at the rear fender. This, shaped the impressive tire 200 ", integrates the dual LED light unit and makes clean look of the view.
Updated the equipment enclosed in a circular dial up of 150 mm [5.9 in.] in diameter with the scale of the analog tachometer formed along the outer circumference and the multifunction display full matrix suspended in the center. News also covered the knobs, the handlebar to the bull horns and electrical blocks where, on the right you can, for the first time on a Moto Guzzi, turn on the cruise control.
Moto Guzzi California 1400 Touring
The Moto Guzzi California 1400 Touring is the expression of the classical model, designed for long voyages, for which it has been elegantly appointed with every comfort for wind protection and load capacity (available in 50 liter trunk).
Two-tone seat, windshield "Patrol", additional lights chrome, panniers 35 liter kits, paramotor and para-bags are standard features of the Moto Guzzi California 1400 Touring, which can also count on three different maps and cruise control.
But do not miss the opportunity to customize their custom tourer, in accordance with your taste and your needs, thanks to a large catalog of accessories.
Special care is the color concept, developed on two evocative graphics: the Eldorado, white with dark decorative threads on the tank, inspired by the versions of the California Highway Patrol or Ambassador, which expresses the classic black with white thread-like versions of the origin, type V7 and 850 California.
Moto Guzzi California 1400 Custom
The bad sister of the tourist version. It is the Moto Guzzi California 1400 Custom, style, temperament and vocation in contrast to the other model.
Design cruiser hard-liners, characterized by a total black look bandistesco and minimalist: two wheels, an engine, seat and handlebars. Nothing but all made in the rigor of form and function, combining it with a typically Italian aesthetic sense, an expression of attention to detail and ability to execute worthy of the best interpretations made in Italy has ever produced in the automotive field.
Less comfortable than touristy but more decisive: frag handlebar bar, seating for two with minimal Eagle logo hot-stamped with low seat and back, rear shock absorbers with external oil tank.
The total black look to increase the expressive power of California 1400 Custom, to the lacquered black wheels with the Moto Guzzi logo and red mirrors blacks.
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H-D Road King...RIP. ;D Red Line at 7000, not bad for 1400cc pushrod twin!
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I want one. Any guesses on when we will see it in the States? I'm guessing second half of 13 as a 2014 model.
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Ohhhhh gawd, how trite, a frickin 200mm rear tire ::) ugh
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I have heard the Cali 14 is to be in USA in the Spring of 13'.
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I read in another article that they hope to sell a lot in the USA, and produce only little numbers for the home market. Still sounds strange, if I had a factory, I would sell as much as I could anywhere they want them. And as I see Harley growing in the Italian home market, there could be potential too.
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A new pic maybe? http://www.motoguzzi.com/
Dean
(http://www.motoguzzi.com/shared/img/banner.jpg)
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I read in another article that they hope to sell a lot in the USA, and produce only little numbers for the home market. Still sounds strange, if I had a factory, I would sell as much as I could anywhere they want them. And as I see Harley growing in the Italian home market, there could be potential too.
This model is targeting the USA specifically, not many cruiser in italy and the few that buy them want the mystic that harley offers, you know the macho mojo bullshit. Italians love foreign machinery without prejudice, triumph, bmw, yamaha(46) are everywhere and they love them naked. I doubt many Italians will flock to a 1400cc motor with about the output of a 600cc modern engine when it takes ten dollars to buy a liter of fuel. They may be bad at logistics but they are the most frugal Europeans, wall street referred to them as "Natural Born Savers" as they own most of the Italian Gov't debt.
BTW "The bigger the better" belief is an American ideal not shared by the Europeans.
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Is there a functional reason for the shape of the headlight? Looks goofy if you ask me. A round headlight would probably look a whole lot better.
Warming up to the design overall, but just feel like they started getting lazy during refinement. The vertical line on the profile is problem. While it may not bother some, I seriously doubt that it enhances the design in anyone's eye and it could be fixed so easily by reshaping the side cover or the leading edge of the seat. The front end looks like it was cobbled together with some chrome pipe that someone bent up for a temporary test. Not a big fan of cop style windshields either. Hope it works better than most.
Then again, It's the people who are looking for a mega cruiser who matter. At least at the moment, that isn't me.
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longer, lower & heavier......perhap s only 100lb heavier instead of 150lb
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Is there a functional reason for the shape of the headlight?
No. For some reason, over the past few years, the headlights of new motorcycles seem to have gotten the attention of the designers.
Probably has a vertical row of LEDs on each side of the main beam, or some other silliness.
Nothing wrong with letting a headlight be a headlight. Same with the weird LED tail lights they've tacked on to the Cal 14. Sometimes a tail light should just be a tail light...
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Head lights and tail lights have been a object of designer play at least since 1980, remember the rectangualr headlight craze of the early eighties?
Seems like an easy place to ply your wears if you are a bike designer. Think about it, when working with a bike, how much do you really have to work with? It's a hell of a lot less than a car.
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No. For some reason, over the past few years, the headlights of new motorcycles seem to have gotten the attention of the designers.
How sure are you it has nothing to do with function?
Could just be correlation, but as I've said, the modern lights I've had that looked like that functioned way better than any traditional round ones I've had. Could obviously be other factors but still.
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I have a theory about the headlight. I wonder if perhaps the twin columns of LEDs down the sides serve to inform drivers that what they're seeing in the distance isn't just a car with one lamp out. Of course, it's entirely possible that they'd simply be drowned out by the low beam brightness or that the horizontal separation is too small but if not then it'd be a good way to shout "I'm not a car".
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Head lights and tail lights have been a object of designer play at least since 1980, remember the rectangualr headlight craze of the early eighties?
Seems like an easy place to ply your wears if you are a bike designer. Think about it, when working with a bike, how much do you really have to work with? It's a hell of a lot less than a car.
I have two bikes in the garage with square headlights.
What's different now is what's different with autos. The headlights are proprietary and (overly) styled by a designer instead of being an off the shelf "standard" assembly.
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How sure are you it has nothing to do with function?
Could just be correlation, but as I've said, the modern lights I've had that looked like that functioned way better than any traditional round ones I've had. Could obviously be other factors but still.
Round ones can be made to work really well. I was very happily surprised the first time I took a night time ride on the Griso. It really lights up the road and gives you a good view of the shoulders too. Compared to all my other previous bikes (all of which had round headlights) the Griso's lights were much brighter and safer.
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I don't doubt round ones can be pretty great (our clear optic Harley lamp is impressive), I'm simply suggesting that since my irregular shaped ones are even better that perhaps there's a reason. But admit it could be coincidental.
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looks like it has led each side:
(http://bikerscafeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/71fdbd175418dc5b0a3aecf26f42d9d7.jpg)
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I'm certainly in agreement that modern headlights are better than earlier ones, but not sure it's due to shape. Plenty of cars like the bug, mini, etc. have round headlights and work just fine. I suspect the LED's are driving lights but may also act as accents at night like the new Audi cars, but you could do the same with a round light.
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looks like it has led each side:
(http://bikerscafeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/71fdbd175418dc5b0a3aecf26f42d9d7.jpg)
Looking at the motoblog.it pix it seems the new redline is at 7K, 1000 rpm's is a lot to lose, which explains why only 96hp with a stomp pulling 90lbft. The headlight is just fine.
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I'm certainly in agreement that modern headlights are better than earlier ones, but not sure it's due to shape. Plenty of cars like the bug, mini, etc. have round headlights and work just fine. I suspect the LED's are driving lights but may also act as accents at night like the new Audi cars, but you could do the same with a round light.
Of course most automotive headlights are larger or deeper, therefore having more room for reflective surfaces.
But yeah, obviously you can have decent round headlights too.
Of course, not all lights are equal, sooo shape may still play some factor.
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It seems that both designers and engineers are paying more attention to vehicle lighting, from both an appearance and a performance perspective. How can anyone complain about that?
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The more I look at it, the more it's growing on me. I think this is going to be a definite see-it-in-person bike! When a demo bike rolls into the local dealership I'll endeavour to take it for a spin but I hear that's a little way off yet.
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Kind of hard to say on the rpm. My old Bassa would hit the limiter at about 7700. My current Breva will pull around 8200 or so berfore the limiter sets in. Will have to see where the new Cali puts the stoper.
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I've never hit the limiter on my EV, don't think there's any power gain passed 7k anyway.
.......now the V11 will go to 8, no problemo .....have hit limiter but wasn't watching it.
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You might be right, or not, but I used to bounce of my rev limiter all the time on my Bassa. Never complained a bit, and still running strong!
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LEDs have the specific function of be seen by other drivers, even if they are out of the main cone of the light.
To see the road, ellipsoid headlights are unmatched, but they are barely visible to those who are not directly in front of them.
Parabolic reflectors (the normal round headlights) are more visible, but those of the bikes are still small, and not so visible than those of the cars.
The lateral LEDs make the headlight very bright from any angle, and then the bike more visible.
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I don't care much what the fit of the headlight is, so long as it functions - See and be seen. One assumes this fits that role.
Also from: http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2013-moto-guzzi-1400-california-aims-to-shake-the-cruiser-segment-51683.html (http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2013-moto-guzzi-1400-california-aims-to-shake-the-cruiser-segment-51683.html)
The bike is allegedly going to be loaded with all the nifty goods you'd expect from a top-drawer machine: electronic cruise control, ride-by-wire, ABS brakes, traction control and no less than 3 different engine mappings for various riding styles.
Couple the massive longitudinal V-Twin with a 6-speed gearbox and a shaft final drive, and load everything into an all-new sport-tuned chassis, and think about the Touring version, an even better-endowed bike full of nifty accessories, such as highway pegs, windshield, aux light and more. It really looks like the game's about to change.
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Kind of hard to say on the rpm. My old Bassa would hit the limiter at about 7700. My current Breva will pull around 8200 or so berfore the limiter sets in. Will have to see where the new Cali puts the stoper.
If you go to motoblog.it and click on the pix of the 1400 the pix it shows the red line starts at 7K. It makes sense since the 1400 motor makes less horses than the 1200. Horses are product of rims.
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If you go to motoblog.it and click on the pix of the 1400 the pix it shows the red line starts at 7K. It makes sense since the 1400 motor makes less horses than the 1200. Horses are product of rims.
Perhaps Chad meant that Guzzi isn't exactly famous for being precise with marking redline on their tachs (IF they even bother to mark it at all).
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Perhaps Chad meant that Guzzi isn't exactly famous for being precise with marking redline on their tachs (IF they even bother to mark it at all).
All the fun on my EV is from 5Kthe to 8K, I love to run it in the high rpm range in the twisties. I hope the 1400 isn't more like HD motors were the fun is in the lower rev range.
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It all depends dunnit? Have any gearing specs been released yet? I haven't really been following all the brough-ha about this as it isn't really my sort of bike but the bevel box is different so its possible that the ratio may be different from a CARC bike and the primaries in the gearbox could be used to alter the ratios as well. If, as I suspect, the engine is tuned for bulk bottom end torque then a high red line is going to be pointless. Raise the gearing a tad and it'll still take off like a cut cat but with that slow, plodding exhaust note that seems to appeal to the cruiser crowd.
Lets face it, the aim here is to attract NEW buyers to the marque rather than catering to the *Old* customer base of people who never buy at retail and would rather eat worms than buy an OE part because the price is "Too high and I can make something just as good out of angle iron, 100 mile-an-hour tape and a bit of bailing wire." ;D
Pete
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Perhaps Chad meant that Guzzi isn't exactly famous for being precise with marking redline on their tachs (IF they even bother to mark it at all).
Bingo! thanks Kev, you got exactly what I meant. The electronic cut out might be dead on 7, or it might not, someone will have to ring one out and let us know.
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Not bad in white either.
(http://www.moto-station.com/cgi-bin/photos/imageLeech.cgi?source=IF&ct=1352469883&file=/Fonds_ecran/Motos/Motos_serie_plus_de_125/Moto_Guzzi/Moto_Guzzi_California_1400/moto_guzzi_california_1400_5.jpg)
Jenn took one look and asked "hey why did they make the headlight shaped like a Harley bar and shield?" lol
I Like it enough for it to be the new background on my laptop ;-T
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What? No toe guards........kiddi ng. That accessorized 1400 Cali doesn't look bad at all. IMHO. Now are these 1400s gonna have hydro valves?
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Now are these 1400s gonna have hydro valves?
They should, but, they won't.
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I have a couple of requirements for a cruiser/touring bike - one is pretty simple; the wife must be happy on it. This means comfortable seat for her, does not crowd me, backrest (can be top box) and a lot less wind buffeting than with the Norge. The second is I need a bike I can attach a 3'x5' flag to for PGR rides. Both Harleys and Goldwings do this very well, Victorys somewhat, the Honda Shadow can be coerced in to it, but the Norge - nope - no good place to build or mount a bracket as there is no rear frame. I really want to like this bike and have it fulfill a need, but so far it doesn't look like it will solve my flag problem.
I do like the looks of it more with the production photos.
jdg
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What? No toe guards........kiddi ng. That accessorized 1400 Cali doesn't look bad at all. IMHO. Now are these 1400s gonna have hydro valves?
No, but they are going to roller tappets.
Pete
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JDG,
Thank you for your PGR activity!
Mark
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JDG,
Thank you for your PGR activity!
Mark
It's always an honor.
jdg
SoCal PGR Posting Team
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Now are these 1400s gonna have hydro valves?
What's a hydro valve? I've not heard that term before.
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What's a hydro valve? I've not heard that term before.
Hydraulicly powered lifters for the valvetrain reduces valve noise (less metal on metal clashing) and should negate the need for valve adjustments.
Guzzi had them on a few Cali models, but stopped after a recall debacle. Cars should have them as standard.... When is the past time you adjusted the valves on your car? ;)
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Official presentation videos (static).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As7gXM5FVrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZt1wZWYizw
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Hydraulicly powered lifters for the valvetrain reduces valve noise (less metal on metal clashing) and should negate the need for valve adjustments.
Guzzi had them on a few Cali models, but stopped after a recall debacle. Cars should have them as standard.... When is the past time you adjusted the valves on your car? ;)
More relevant is the fact that Harley-Davidson uses hydraulic valve lifters on their engines. For the non-technically inclined riders (a large and growing part of the cruiser demographic), that's an important feature.
IMO, if you're going to compete with Harley... compete with Harley. Moto Guzzi has the tech to do a hydro big block. That ability may have been painfully gained, but it's there, nonetheless. A shame Piaggio won't re-visit this.
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Official presentation videos (static).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As7gXM5FVrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZt1wZWYizw
Damn :drool
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Stripped of it's clothing
http://pinterest.com/pin/7529524347467891/
(http://pinterest.com/pin/7529524347467891/)
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So in Netherlands we get them in December, no prices yet. Custom comes in middle grey(mercurio) and black.
Gearing:
Gearbox : 6 speeds with final overdrive
Gear ratio values : 1st 17/38 = 1 : 2.235
: 2nd 20/34 = 1 : 1.700
: 3rd 23/31 = 1 : 1.348
: 4th 26/29 = 1 : 1.115
: 5th 31/30 = 1 : 0.968
: 6th 30/24 = 1 : 0.8
Primary drive: with helical teeth, ratio 26/35 = 1: 1,346)
Final drive : double cardan joint and fixed bevel gear seat, drive ratio 10/36 = 1: 3.6)
(http://s18.postimage.org/mk0ddles5/12_California_Custom_Grigio_Mercurio.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/mk0ddles5/)
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And all california direct from guzzi:
http://california.motoguzzi.com//en
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And all california direct from guzzi:
http://california.motoguzzi.com//en
Looking good.
I'm liking it more and more...
;-T
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Directly from EICMA.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/231168_523405951004576_502020600_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/522220_523405954337909_1219979941_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/8765_523405897671248_2140085003_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/18231_523405784337926_1020550141_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/598977_523405781004593_350000933_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/61472_523405581004613_1628978481_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/311261_523405571004614_1402876197_n.jpg)
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I like it dressed in white. I like the lady dressed in white too. Makes a nice accessory for the bike. I hope I will be able to afford one.
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Directly from EICMA.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/231168_523405951004576_502020600_n.jpg)
OOOOHHH, that aitting/foot control position looks VERY SIMILAR to the Tonti Cali, no?
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some more pics here.
http://www.motociclismo.it/popupgallery/moto-scooter/moto-guzzi-california-1400-touring-e-custom?iframe=true&width=980&height=605
Gray too.
(http://static.blogo.it/motoblog/guzzi-california-m-y-2013/guzzi-california-2013-eicma2012-0.jpg)
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And all california direct from guzzi:
http://california.motoguzzi.com//en
With this link and the pictures from the show, the California 1400 looks to be the most successful and complete motorcycle in the history of Moto Guzzi. This link and the pictures from the show are simply awesome. My Harley 883L, CalVin and Valkyrie Interstate are getting very nervous.
Thank you Paul,
Mark
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Will those tail lights survive the DOT in America? Seems to me there is some sort of rule about spacing from the center line and such.
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Interesting hints at accessories in the Moto Guzzi California web site:
High performance silencers, chrome-plated and machined components, saddles of all types and materials, as well as support and the App which turns an iPhone into a supplementary dashboard to obtain all kinds of navigation, performance and technical data information.
Some form of "anti-theft system" is referred to as standard, but this may only be on the Touring model.
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Will those tail lights survive the DOT in America? Seems to me there is some sort of rule about spacing from the center line and such.
The turn signals you mean? I dunno. There are a number of bikes in the US with the signals REALLY close to the tail light. I'm not sure that's true, but I guess I could google it.
EDIT -
AHHH HERE IT IS
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=federal%20motorcycle%20turn%20signal%20standards&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhtsa.gov%2Fcars%2Frules%2Fmaninfo%2Fmcpkg002.pdf&ei=b62iUMLWHs-80AG5vIHwAg&usg=AFQjCNF7F1yGmLHRP5KD71TvyrK1NapCzg
At or near the front - 1 amber on
each side of the vertical centerline at
the same height, and having a
minimum horizontal separation
distance (centerline of lamps) of 16
inches. Minimum edge to edge
separatio n distance between lamp
and headlamp is 4 inches.
At or near the rear - 1 red or amber
on each side of the vertical
centerline, at the same height and
having a minimum horizontal
separation distance (centerline to
centerline of lamps) of 9 inches.
Minimum edge to edge separation
distance between lamp and tail or
stop lamp is 4 inches, when a single
stop and tail lamp is installed on the
vertical centerline and the turn
signal lamps are red.
IF I'm reading it right this is the part that matters:
- 1 red or amber on each side of the vertical centerline, at the same height and having a minimum horizontal
separation distance (centerline to centerline of lamps) of 9 inches.
I'm guessing the OR part, minimum distacne between lamp and tail or stop lamp doesn't apply because there isn't a SINGLE stop lamp in this design - it's a dual lamp.
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Some form of "anti-theft system" is referred to as standard, but this may only be on the Touring model.
I betcha they mean a coded key like with the CARC line.
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http://youtu.be/kntB0YAZUeg
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Will those tail lights survive the DOT in America? Seems to me there is some sort of rule about spacing from the center line and such.
Are they really much different from the LED V tail lights on some of the Victory's? I think their Vision and Cross Country/Roads models have similar V style rear lights.
Mark
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Are they really much different from the LED V tail lights on some of the Victory's? I think their Vision and Cross Country/Roads models have similar V style rear lights.
Mark
Thats why you get all things from europe later. It takes a year to get them past regulations.
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Looks like no center or main stand which is a departure from most if not all other Californias. Too bad IMHO
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A downstate VA Ducati/Moto Guzzi dealer is offering pre orders for Cali 1400 touring....call for price (if you dare). http://www.redlinemotors.com/default.asp?page=xNewInventory
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Just got off the phone from the importer. Apparently it uses the 7SM controller like the RSV4. Ride by wire, single TB, traction control, and cruise control among other stuff I've forgotten. Sounds like fun, I can hear the splintering of corn-cob pipes from half a world away!!! ;D
Pete
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Just got off the phone from the importer. Apparently it uses the 7SM controller like the RSV4. Ride by wire, single TB, traction control, and cruise control among other stuff I've forgotten. Sounds like fun, I can hear the splintering of corn-cob pipes from half a world away!!! ;D
Pete
Naah, somebody will figure out how to put a trailer hitch and some rain gutters on it… :D
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Just read the article on Cycleworld (http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/11/13/eicma-2012-moto-guzzi-california-1400/), hadn't read this before…
The Moto Guzzi California 1400 will come in two versions: 1) fully equipped Touring; and 2) leaner and more “essential” Custom. The Touring is available in two editions: the rich Ambassador and the super-rich Eldorado, with the latter of the two coming with a large windshield, big saddlebags, a black/white two-tone seat (same as was on the original California of the 1970s) and driving lights. Rather impressive.
Even a little Loop nostalgia goin' on out there.
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How about a Vetter fairing on the new California, now that would be the bomb.
Mark
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Have not been following this post, so my apologies if this has already been posted - From my Italian penpal in Napoli - http://www.dueruote.it/notizie/speciale-eicma-2012/arrivano-le-california-1400
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Data overload these last few days. I love it. It looks fresh, new, mean yet refined. Can't wait to see one in person. Sit on Her, Feel her jugs. Wait are we still talking about the Cali?
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Who will be the 1st to fit the thing up in a Griso?
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Pete, parts list is online. Nothing I didn't expect. The roller cams we have seen in the 8v lists are there now. New belly pan, and a fan behind the radiator.
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Sorry if I missed it while trying to catch up on this thread, but I didn't see anyone mention the 743 lb curb weight :o
I guess that is still lighter than a lot of bikes in its market segment, but certainly a lot heavier than its predecessor.
Ref: http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/11/13/eicma-2012-moto-guzzi-california-1400/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/11/13/eicma-2012-moto-guzzi-california-1400/)
Although not my type of bike, I think they hit a home run with the new Cali for its intended market segment. IMHO, it is a gorgeous bike, and I hope it sells very well and makes lots of money for the mother ship so they can keep making their great bikes we all love.
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Sorry if I missed it while trying to catch up on this thread, but I didn't see anyone mention the 743 lb curb weight :o
I guess that is still lighter than a lot of bikes in its market segment, but certainly a lot heavier than its predecessor.
We covered it a week ago/a couple of pages ago.
It's more for sure (and more than I wanted to see) but let's put it in perspective:
Wet weights:
Harley 1200 Sporty 585 lbs
Black Eagle 589 lbs
Cal-Vin 616 lbs
Victory Judge ~ 700 lbs
Harley FLD 718 lbs
CAL 1400 750 lbs
Honda Valkyrie Tourer 776 lbs
Triumph Rocket III 797 lbs
Victory Crossroads ~ 800 lbs
Harley Road King 812 lbs
Harley Ultra 911 lbs
Honda Goldwing 904-933 lbs
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I never imagined that I would ever ride a bike as heavy as my Vintage, but my paradigm adjusted quite easily. Its not like the old days when big bikes skated around on cheesy tires, brakes, and under-damped suspensions. I've been surprised more than once with some really chunky behemoths (the Valkyrie comes to mind). I expect the new Cali will handle with grace and aplomb.
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http://youtu.be/kntB0YAZUeg
So what's with "Teen Age Wasteland" as the background music???????
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So what's with "Teen Age Wasteland" as the background music???????
Maybe the target market is boomers like me.
Pete Townshend of The Who wrote it after Woodstock.
You youngsters may have to Google that.
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you mean "Baba O'riley"?
:beat_horse
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Here's a link for new pics of the Cali. 1400 dressed and undressed. When the link opens up hit the next button on the upper right to scroll through the pics. I'm liking this bike more all the time!!! ;-T ;-T ;-T ;D ;D ;D ;-T ;-T ;-T
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=452654694798865&set=a.135191723211832.26219.131361833594821&type=1&theater
Also a couple of very nice video's from over at Guzzi Tech
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As7gXM5FVrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZt1wZWYizw
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Nice pics thanks. What is the sporty looking one with ALBA on the side?
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;-T nice
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(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/20384_10151246054398656_1654445881_n.jpg)
I wonder if that display is more reliable than the Breva 1100 / Sport 1200 Display? ::)
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Piaggio Group presentation at EICMA
(http://motoscootercity.com/public/primopiano/gruppo-piaggio-eicma-2012-9_zoom.jpg)
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Complete gallery, with details.
http://www.animaguzzista.com/index.jsp?sito=animaguzzista&linkPagina=18763&lingua=it
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Looking at the CAD files in that gallery, looks like it might be a rubber mounted engine? Red parts in the pictures.
Don't know if it had been mentioned anywhere else....
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Looking at the CAD files in that gallery, looks like it might be a rubber mounted engine? Red parts in the pictures.
Don't know if it had been mentioned anywhere else....
I've read in a couple of the translated articles that the engine is rubber mounted.
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I've read in a couple of the translated articles that the engine is rubber mounted.
I must have missed that, but it would help explain the weight gain.
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V- Also -V
I had a chance today to look at the frame and motor manual, 3" thick, book!! Holy Tomolli, rubber mounted motor & trans, roller rockers, cams have a spring to keep no end float. Kind of a cool bike, you can crab the frame. Peak torque at like 2750 rpm and hp is at 6500, looks like a stump puller and a 200 rear tire. AND it's coming.
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I've read in a couple of the translated articles that the engine is rubber mounted.
Yes, the engine is rubber mounted. Finally! Great news, and you can read about it here. http://california.motoguzzi.com/features/en
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Complete gallery, with details.
http://www.animaguzzista.com/index.jsp?sito=animaguzzista&linkPagina=18763&lingua=it
As usual, Anima Guzzista does an awesome job. The pictures on their site are the best I've seen yet.
Thank you for the post and the link,
Mark
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Back to the irregular-shaped headlights.
My BIL came by the other night to pick up his Kawi Versys (which was hiding from Sandy in my garage) and when he started the bike I noticed something I'd not noticed before - there appeared to be additional lights in the rectangular sides of the headlight. I don't know if that is to make him more visible during the day or to cast better light on the road at night, but it was noticeable.
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Yes, the engine is rubber mounted! You can read about it here. http://california.motoguzzi.com/features/en
Missed that....
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Dang, that white one is darn good looking.
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I didn't like it so much naked, but it's the bomb with the bags and shield!
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I really, really like this bike. I am very interested in the touring version and there is a high probability that I will buy one next year. It of course depends upon the price. I would like to see $18,000 or less for the touring version, but I am guessing $18,999. The new Gold Wing F6B lists for $19,999. The HD Road King is $17,699 and the RK Classic is $19,999. The feet forward bias of most HD's turn me off. The new Cali and the Gold Wing appear to have moderate foot controls, probably a little more forward than my EVT, but not much. Yeah, I really like this bike.
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Just saw it in person today for the first time. What a beast!!! Not my kind of ride, but it certainly looks better in person than in pics...
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I keep going back to look at the matte black roadster and wondering if a Dart flyscreen could be fitted...
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There was a question about max total weight, including bike and all you load on it: 547 kg (1205.93 lb)
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http://www.tlm.nl/
Hot news from Mandello del Lario; the California 1400 went into production! At this moment the factory is as busy as a bee producing the first units of the California 1400! The earliest deliveries will take place in Novembre already! The California 1400 will be equiped with some of the latest technological developments, like ride-by-wire throttle control, ABS and Traction control. The current 1200cc 8valve engine has been redesigned and the engine capacity has been increased to 1400cc.
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Also this from the Teo Lamers website:
At first, the California 1400 will be produced in the most luxurious version available, but in limited numbers. At a later point in time, the other versions will become available. Approximate export prices will be (VAT and € 399 preparation costs not included):
€ 13.600 California Custom
€ 15.000 California Touring
€ 15.800 California Full Touring
As a straight conversion from Euro to USD, that's
$17,384
$19,173
$20,196
Plus dealer fees.
Yikes! I was kinda hoping to see US prices around $2K less than that. As I understand it, Euro "export" prices are not the same as US prices, so there may still be hope.
Also, the "security system" is standard only on the top-of-the-line model, so it must be something more than a coded key.
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For the full boat, that works out to $20,199 USD at today's exchange rate. A bit steep, but not so much as to scare me off.
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Straight conversions are no good.
Market pricing varies.
USA has no VAT.
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Rocker, the above prices are "export" from Teo Lamers in Holland, without VAT.
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Also, the "security system" is standard only on the top-of-the-line model, so it must be something more than a coded key.
It's with GPS tracking
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Rocker, the above prices are "export" from Teo Lamers in Holland, without VAT.
I'm sure PGA will release USA prices to the dealers pretty soon.
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More important than price is the US availability date!
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Find more pics, specs @ www.motorcycledaily .com. ;)
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I read a fuel capacity of 5.3,that's on the small side to me
Like the white best but I am wondering if I am dreaming that on some site a saw a green one
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Brief test ride (in Italian) with good pictures..
http://www.motociclismo.it/moto-guzzi-california-1400-gran-bella-moto-moto-53345
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Dang, that white one is darn good looking.
+1
I loves me some white bike...
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Motociclismo might be a bit biased, but they certainly don't hate it.
For those of you who may be worried that because of its increased size and mass, the nuovo California won't handle like a "California," I offer this photographic evidence to the contrary:
(http://www.motociclismo.it/cache/gallery/4/9/4/6/cali1400codo-07.jpg_2000.jpg)
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I read a fuel capacity of 5.3,that's on the small side to me
Seriously? That is less than the V7! That won't help them sell the touring model. Hopefully that data is incorrect.
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Seriously? That is less than the V7! That won't help them sell the touring model. Hopefully that data is incorrect.
IIRC, 5.5 US gals was quoted, with 1.5 of that as reserve. However, Piaggio is also quoting fuel economy improvements with the 1400 mill over the 1200 of 15 - 20%. That could mean well over 40 mpg, or a range well in excess of 200 miles.
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Seriously? That is less than the V7! That won't help them sell the touring model. Hopefully that data is incorrect.
Till the last few years MOST bikes had a fuel capacity of 5 gallons or less. Even the touring platforms only had about 5 gallons.
Someone correct me, but there were only a handful of models, like the BMW GS PD versions, that had very large capacities.
There are certainly things to be said for 6 or 7 or more for limited applications, but as long as you keep the fuel efficiency somewhere reasonable (north of 40 mpg) I don't see it as a huge issue.
Now if that new motor starts giving 30-something mpg then it is a little disappointing - i.e. 30 mpg with a 5 gallon tank PROBABLY only means 4 gallons or 120 miles before the fuel light comes on. At least 40 mpg would give 160 or more. I could easily live with that.
EDIT - if YCRN is right that it's 5.5, and there is more reserve (and you're willing to ride out another gallon after the light comes on) then yeah 40 mpg = 200 mile range, that's not bad at all.
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Till the last few years MOST bikes had a fuel capacity of 5 gallons or less. Even the touring platforms only had about 5 gallons.
Someone correct me, but there were only a handful of models, like the BMW GS PD versions, that had very large capacities.
There are certainly things to be said for 6 or 7 or more for limited applications, but as long as you keep the fuel efficiency somewhere reasonable (north of 40 mpg) I don't see it as a huge issue.
Now if that new motor starts giving 30-something mpg then it is a little disappointing - i.e. 30 mpg with a 5 gallon tank PROBABLY only means 4 gallons or 120 miles before the fuel light comes on. At least 40 mpg would give 160 or more. I could easily live with that.
EDIT - if YCRN is right that it's 5.5, and there is more reserve (and you're willing to ride out another gallon after the light comes on) then yeah 40 mpg = 200 mile range, that's not bad at all.
Kev, I think you are generally correct in your statement. There have been a few exceptions, like the first generation Kawi Concours which started production in 1986 with a huge tank, as well as the Honda ST 1100, also supertanker capacity, but on average, around 5 gallons has been the industry standard for a long time.
Bruce
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My 04 EVT only gets around 40mph and it has a 5 gallon tank. I would imagine the newer engine would get as good or likely better mph. If so, the 5.5 gallon tank is of no consequence to me.
After reading the full description on MCDaily, I am even more enamored. Anyone want to buy my 04 EVT??
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My 04 EVT only gets around 40mph and it has a 5 gallon tank. I would imagine the newer engine would get as good or likely better mph. If so, the 5.5 gallon tank is of no consequence to me.
My Jackal got a pretty consistent 40 mpg too, with occassional spikes up to as high as 50 mpg.
Same with my Breva.
Though owners of both bikes that live elsewhere often reported higher mileage. Which worries me a bit, because my usage, ambient conditions etc seem to make for lower mpg. I generally count on getting the lower end of rated or reported mpgs on all of my vehicles for this reason.
Now that said - I can understand the Jackal making about 40 mpg - it had a certain amount of mass and didn't make too much power. I can even understand the Breva matching it most of the time - yes it made more power, but it weighed a little less.
BUT THIS NEW BIKE WEIGHS A GOOD 200 lbs MORE THAN THE BREVA, and reportedly MAKES MORE POWER.
That generally isn't a good combination to make for better fuel efficiency.
From that alone I kinda expect we're going to hear about it making more like 35-45 mpg, rather than 40-50 mpg like the previous Cali.
Just another SWAG.
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I prefer six gallon tanks, but the industry seems to have settled on +or- five gallons as the norm. My Vintage takes me 160 miles on a tank, with fuel to spare. That works for me...even out West.
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My Jackal got a pretty consistent 40 mpg too, with occassional spikes up to as high as 50 mpg.
Same with my Breva....
BUT THIS NEW BIKE WEIGHS A GOOD 200 lbs MORE THAN THE BREVA, and reportedly MAKES MORE POWER.
That generally isn't a good combination to make for better fuel efficiency.
From that alone I kinda expect we're going to hear about it making more like 35-45 mpg, rather than 40-50 mpg like the previous Cali.
Your hypothesis is contradicted by Piaggio's press releases. They are claiming a 15-20% improvement in fuel economy. That would mean as much as 48 mpg for the nuovo California. 48 mpg x 5.5 gal. = 264 mile range
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Your hypothesis is contradicted by Piaggio's press releases. They are claiming a 15-20% improvement in fuel economy. That would mean as much as 48 mpg for the nuovo California. 48 mpg x 5.5 gal. = 264 mile range
But, their press release also said the Stones are here and available, but I don't have one yet lol. :BEER:
I take press releases with a huge grain of salt.
It would be quite an accomplishment to increase the weight by about what about 25% but also increase fuel efficiency by 20%. If they did, that's awesome, and I hope it is true.
Seriously though, I'm a show me type o' guy (guess I live in the wrong state) and I'll believe it when I see it.
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Well, I agree with your bigger point, which is: with a 5.5 gal tank, 40 mpg would mean an acceptable cruising range; above 40 mpg would be very good-to-excellent cruising range; and below 40 mpg would be fair-to-poor cruising range (for a touring bike).
Nevertheless, if Piaggio Group is quoting a 15-20% improvement in fuel economy, even if they are being "intentionally optimistic," ;) it would be scandalous if the nuovo California returned less than 40 mpg.
Bottom line: I think cruising range is going to be a non-issue.
EDIT: Published fuel tank capacity is 21 liters (5.55 US gallons).
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A press release also said that my Vintage weighed 580 lbs...
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Agreed. The range is not an issue for me. I only have a 120 mile bladder.
One thing for certain. All this hype has increased the luster of my '01 EV.
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Well, I agree with your bigger point, which is: with a 5.5 gal tank, 40 mpg would mean an acceptable cruising range; above 40 mpg would be very good-to-excellent cruising range; and below 40 mpg would be fair-to-poor cruising range (for a touring bike).
Nevertheless, if Piaggio Group is quoting a 15-20% improvement in fuel economy, even if they are being "intentionally optimistic," ;) it would be scandalous if the nuovo California returned less than 40 mpg.
Bottom line: I think cruising range is going to be a non-issue.
Again, I hope you're right, but I'll remain cautiously/skeptically optimistic.
I wonder if they made claims about the Breva 1100 or the Griso 8V fuel mileages?
And if they tested the new Cal 1400 on E-10 when determining those ranges?
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Brief test ride (in Italian) with good pictures..
http://www.motociclismo.it/moto-guzzi-california-1400-gran-bella-moto-moto-53345
Excellent photos! Including ones of many accessories. Photo #35 shows heated hand grips, for example.
This does look like a prairie buster. I'm happy to see that the cruise control will be standard on the Custom as well as the Tourer.
Moto
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Sign up here for exclusive digital copy of limited edition California 1400 Book.
http://california.motoguzzi.com/limited-edition-book/en (http://california.motoguzzi.com/limited-edition-book/en)
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Well, let's see - the Norge is 246 k dry (542lbs) with a 23liter (6 US Gallon) which includes a 4 liter (1 US Gallon) reserve. I generally get between 210 and 220 miles per tank before the low fuel light comes on. Looking at Fuelly.com, I am averaging right at 40MPG. There's only one other Norge listed on the site, and that one is showing 36.4 MPG average. Heck, Harleys only have a 6 Gallon tank and that seems to work out pretty well. The Goldwing is quoted at 6.6 Gallons and a 35 MPG estimated mileage figure. I think Guzzi is well within the ball park on this.
I'd bet it will get close to 200 miles on a tank without much drama.
jdg
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Driven at a steady 50mph I'm sure it might ;) get the kind of numbers projected. I've driven quite a lot of modern bikes with greatly less weight than this gorgeous machine, not a single one of them returned much better than 45mpg on most days. Given, mpg numbers are greatly in the wrist but of the 3 Calis I have owned, none of them charted close to 45mpg except maybe 3 or 4 times in about 20k miles. Technology is a surprising thing but looking at this bike's weight and performance increases I just can't imagine how in the world this bike could eclipse the previos Cali for efficiency. Thankfully, however, I only drive the Vespa for pure economy and as long as this new beauty returns at least 35 or so, I don't think I would care one way or another and I'd say sign me up to ride the white horse.
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So does this mean there is going to be a glut of EV's on the market? :BEER:
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My Italian is limited to varieties of pasta; anyone got that first ride link in a decent translation?
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My Italian is limited to varieties of pasta; anyone got that first ride link in a decent translation?
You should try Google Chrome. It will auto-translate pages to your language. ;-T
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Well, let's see - the Norge is 246 k dry (542lbs) with a 23liter (6 US Gallon) which includes a 4 liter (1 US Gallon) reserve. I generally get between 210 and 220 miles per tank before the low fuel light comes on. Looking at Fuelly.com, I am averaging right at 40MPG. There's only one other Norge listed on the site, and that one is showing 36.4 MPG average. Heck, Harleys only have a 6 Gallon tank and that seems to work out pretty well.
HOWEVER the big Harleys do tend to get better mileage despite their weight, probably due to their mild/torquey/more diesel-like tuning.
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But, their press release also said the Stones are here and available, but I don't have one yet lol. :BEER:
I take press releases with a huge grain of salt.
It would be quite an accomplishment to increase the weight by about what about 25% but also increase fuel efficiency by 20%. If they did, that's awesome, and I hope it is true.
Seriously though, I'm a show me type o' guy (guess I live in the wrong state) and I'll believe it when I see it.
Come on Kev, the press release is right, (yes I saw your LOL) I think your dealer might be your issue, not Piaggio/Guzzi.
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HOWEVER the big Harleys do tend to get better mileage despite their weight, probably due to their mild/torquey/more diesel-like tuning.
Also, HDs are factory-tuned using the actual fuels that us, the unwashed masses use. As a result their fuel maps are appropriate for US fuel blends and the bikes run close to optimally.
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Chad, you can keep believing what you read, but I'm gonna continue to be a doubting Thomas.
Heck, don't you remember Mike Haven giving me a wrath of crap for believing some Guzzi tech literature?
Now in that case I and the literature were right, but the point is that his VAST experience with Guzzi made him skeptical.
Me getting lucky one time isn't going to buck that experience the rest of the time. :D
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Kev, I guess it's too late to avoid getting into a pissing match with you, which you are well famous around these parts for! :)
But if I'm wrong, and you are right, how do you explain post 187 of the following thread?
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=57897.160
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Kev, I guess it's too late to avoid getting into a pissing match with you, which you are well famous around these parts for! :)
What a lousy and uncharitable thing to say. Feel proud of yourself to be the one to make it personal.
For the record, this wasn't a pissing contest.
I expressed an opinion and supported it with examples, that was all.
I even added some self deprecating humor to the statement.
I didn't attack anyone, call anyone names, or even remotely suggest anything negative about anyone.
My stubbornness to accept unverified statements from an OEM when experience suggests a reason to doubt doesn't reflect on you in any way. Yet you seem to have taken this personally. I'm sorry you feel that way as absolutely nothing was meant by it.
s for how I explain...does it really need an explanation? Was anyone arguing that point? Did you think I thought you were wrong about that still? ???
Maybe I should just do what so many others before me have done and bow out of this place so full of angry old men. It's starting to really add nothing positive to my life.
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Maybe I should just do what so many others before me have done and bow out of this place so full of angry old men. It's starting to really add nothing positive to my life.
Sometimes that helps. It isn't like that this is a physical group that you have to see every day at home or at work, and if you wanted to "bow out" you'd have to move to another state or quit your job.
All you have to do is "Just not click" on the WG icon. Don't have to change a setting, nothing, just don't click.
And it ALL disappears! Political issues, hassles, people with different opinions, obnoxious people, all of it. Gone. You won't know if the negatives that you perceive outweigh the considerable positives of participating on this board unless you try it.
Or, if that's too much, if someone particularly annoys you, WALK AWAY from the thread! Don't respond. Don't read the posts. Laugh. Let other cyber idiots crow and strut that they "Spanked You" or "Owned You" because you didn't get the last word in. Doesn't matter. You can make them disappear completely out of your universe if you like ....
Lannis
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Maybe I should just do what so many others before me have done and bow out of this place so full of angry old men. It's starting to really add nothing positive to my life.
Bad Chad is a "young man"... Well below the Guzzisti median, if I'm not mistaken.
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Certainly not every thread has to have one persons perspective posted ad nauseam. It's not like we have a bunch of 16 year old girls here who feel the need to argue every point and have the last word no matter what. Too many young girls seem to think they're the smartest people on the planet.
Just a thought,
Mark
old - yea maybe, if 52 is old
angry - not a bit
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Bad Chad is a "young man"... Well below the Guzzisti median, if I'm not mistaken.
Then maybe this place is adversely effecting those below the median.
Hmmm, what IS the median?
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Then maybe this place is adversely effecting those below the median.
Hmmm, what IS the median?
If it's less than 55, I'd be surprised.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course...
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If it's less than 55, I'd be surprised.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course...
Well, then I beat it by a decade too. ;-T
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Oh come on guys, maybe Chad was just being bad ;-T :D ;D
Age of members - certainly not current as this was 2 years ago:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=41788.0;viewResults
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I love Chad, like I love my brother... Love you Jay!
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wow I can't believe the hits on this post ..... ;-T (huge interest I'd say .. a home run for they Guzzi boys )
a couple of questions (too lazy to scan thru the hundreds of posts here ) :pop
Has anybody lined up to buy one from any US dealer yet? made a deposit?
supposedly (from a GOOD source ) the US prices should be out next week ... with US dealers getting the 1400 in their showrooms in March 2013.
Could we see additional dealer markup if the supply is limited in the US ... maybe a first for MG ?
I have been out of touch with this board since last spring when I sold my Cal Vin to be ready to grab a new 1400.
My size (6'2") is they key reason I am looking forward to the 1400 ... plus the extra HP
I loved my Cal Vin but I was cramped...save me a white bagger please.. with all the options...
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I love Kev.
Fear not brothers on bikes, we shall all move forward from here!
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I love Chad, like I love my brother... Love you Jay!
Room 6, StarLight Motel, Breezewood, PA. Hurry up, it's $15 an hour ....
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I love Kev.
Fear not brothers on bikes, we shall all move forward from here!
Room 6, StarLight Motel, Breezewood, PA. Hurry up, it's $15 an hour ....
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Rubber mounts will do that.
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Evidently, Moto Guzzi has invited some motorcycle journalists to Cannes for rides.
Here is one from Ultimate Motorcycling (http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2013-moto-guzzi-california-1400-touring-first-ride).
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One thing I noticed in some close-up pictures of the nuovo California (can't find the picture right now), is that the underside of the floorboards are equipped with hard plastic or rubber sliders, so when a floorboard touches down, it will slide rather than grab and try to lever the bike off the road. Very cool, and a good example of the attention to detail on this bike.
Here's an old-school artist's rendering that I really like:
(http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201211/2013-moto-guzzi-californi-5_800x0w.jpg)
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First road test that I know of:
http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2013-moto-guzzi-california-1400-touring-first-ride (http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2013-moto-guzzi-california-1400-touring-first-ride)
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More than 2,000 RPMs?
Scrape the floorboards?
I'm not trying hard enough.
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I want one!
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/11/2013-moto-guzzi-california-1400-touring-and-custom-new-flagships-for-legendary-italian-marque/
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Wow... what a beauty!!
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Sounds like you no longer get that famous Italian massage as you ride it. I want one, black, maybe white. Would have to see them in person to choose. Guzzi's white is really beautiful. I like the leather seat and bags idea. Would have to see that first too though. Any idea on pricing yet?? 16K ? 20k? Looking forward to RF getting one in to demo then put money down. :bike ;-T
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For those to lazy to hyper link,
Moto Guzzi California 1400 Test
The all new Moto Guzzi California 1400 Touring is the most comfortable beast ever to leave the Mandello del Lario factory gates. The plush seat kept me comfortable and happy during our whole 125-mile test ride in Cannes, France
There's some excessive heat dissipation from those big new cylinder heads that hits just below my knees, and luckily for us the temperature only ranged between 55-68 degrees Fahrenheit.
The new 1380cc air-cooled V90 is very impressive, and while I preferred to keep her under 2,000 rpm it gets really lively all the way up past 5,000rpm. The new 1400 is a really flexible engine that hasn't sacrificed its low end sweet spot to achieve an almost sporty top end. That's unusual for this size cruiser.
The Guzzi California 1400 Touring features Cruise Control, Traction Control and riding modes to play with. The latest ABS technology is also included for safe braking.
With a big section 130 front and 200 rear from Dunlop, I hadn't expected the California 1400 Touring to handle quite as well as it did. This 742-lbs. mammoth really handles well. When the footboards touch the tarmac it's quite a soft feel rather than a dramatic rattle which can happen with other big cruisers.
With the California 1400 Touring Moto Guzzi is really close to other big twins and gone is the cramped seating position of the old California Vintage. Moto Guzzi certainly means business with the new 1400.
Stay clicked to UltimateMotorCyclin g.com for a full review.
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"I preferred to keep her under 2,000 rpm" ??? Not a guy who know Guzzi engines very well, is he?
Or maybe this is a new type of Guzzi engine? The comment certainly is a testament to the low-speed fueling and out-of-the box rideability of the nuovo California engine. (The 1100 and 1200 engines are not too happy running at 2,000 rpm.)
Keep in mind the engineers purposely kept the 1400's hp figures modest in favor of low-end torque; 90 ft./ lbs. at only 2750 rpm. Meanwhile 96 peak hp is at 6,500 rpm, so maybe you can either putt along at 2,000 rpm, or wind out each gear to 6,500 rpm.
If it works out that way, that's a very flexible engine for the class. For comparison: Harley Road King published figure (optimistic) is 100 ft./ lbs. torque (90 is more realistic), but at 3,250 rpm. Harley doesn't publish hp numbers, but Road King is around 80 crank hp at only 5,200 rpm.
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Aren't the 96 hp / 89 ft lbs torque figures from Piaggio crank and not rear wheel?
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Aren't the 96 hp / 89 ft lbs torque figures from Piaggio crank and not rear wheel?
not bad spex for a 750 lb full boat tourer, really
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Aren't the 96 hp / 89 ft lbs torque figures from Piaggio crank and not rear wheel?
Yes, as are the H-D numbers I cited. The torque figures are from H-D. I'm probably being charitable with the hp numbers; owners report dyno numbers for the stock bikes at around 65 - 70 hp, and I allowed +15% for drivetrain loss from the crank to the rear wheel.
Regardless of the exact peak torque and hp numbers, my point concerns flexibility. Given engines of comparable torque and hp output, an engine that makes peak torque at 2,750 rpm and peak hp at 6,500 rpm is more flexible than an engine that makes peak torque at 3,250 rpm and peak hp at 5,200 rpm.
(Not to mention the 75 lb. weight difference....)
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Well, when you gave the "90 ft. lbs." as more "realistic" you seemed like you were starting to cross over to estimates of rear wheel figures.
FWIW, Harley does sometimes publish some rwhp/torque specs but you have to go looking for them.as
Typically you can get some figures from the dyno charts they include in the Screaming Eagle performance parts catalogs.
As for the Cali 1400 the motor does sound very interesting and could be a real great match to this kind of chassis.
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the engineers purposely kept the 1400's hp figures modest in favor of low-end torque; 90 ft./ lbs. at only 2750 rpm. Meanwhile 96 peak hp is at 6,500 rpm, so maybe you can either putt along at 2,000 rpm, or wind out each gear to 6,500 rpm.
Those are impressive numbers. Wide spread between peak torque and peak power.
Peak torque at 2750 is pretty interesting. The Sport 1100 / V11 Sport engines had peak torque at 6,000 and peak power at 7,000.
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Well, when you gave the "90 ft. lbs." as more "realistic" you seemed like you were starting to cross over to estimates of rear wheel figures.
I probably should have stuck to published figures, so as not to sidetrack the discussion, but here's where I'm coming from on the point you note--
I am skeptical of the H-D published torque figure of 100 ft./ lbs at the crank, because dyno numbers typically show around 75 ft./lbs at the rear wheel. Here's but one example: http://www.johnsonenginetechnology.com/JETIMAGES/dynographs/twin_cam_95%22/95efi_reinharts.jpg
(The lower values are for the stock H-D engine; the higher ones are with certain modifications.)
Now, operating losses from crank to rear wheel are typically: 10 - 20%, depending on operating efficiency. For Harley's belt-drive system, I think 15% is fair. So, if rear wheel torque is 75 ft./ lbs., torque at the crank is likely closer to 90 than 100 ft./ lbs. (75 ft./ lbs + 15%).
Granted, with a few minor and very common modifications, the H-D big twin is capable of peak hp and torque figures that will meet or exceed those of the M-G 1400 8V, but I think my point is still valid -- the M-G engine is the more flexible of the two. I mean, c'mon -- peak torque at only 2,750 rpm AND a 7,000 rpm redline? Even the Harley guys have to be impressed.
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What year and model is the dyno chart? Not all TCs are the same, even in the same model year.
But yes, I'm obviously not poo-pooing the Cali.
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What year and model is the dyno chart? Not all TCs are the same, even in the same model year.
After a bit more digging, I realize that the numbers I was looking at were for the TC 96A engine. Since the FL tourers are probably the most appropriate H-D models to compare to the nuovo California, and they now use the 103 ci engine, I believe that Harley's published 100 lbs. /ft. crank torque figure is accurate (for that engine). (OTOH, my 80 crank hp guesstimate was pretty accurate.)
Harley-Davidson Twin Cam 103 cu. in. engine
Observed* rear wheel hp and torque: 67.65 hp @ 5,000 rpm / 85.8 lbs./ ft. @ 3,250 rpm
Estimated** hp / torque at the crank: 77.80 hp @ 5,000 rpm / 98.67 lbs./ ft @ 3,250 rpm
*http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/model_eval/2011NovHDDyna.pdf at p.12.
** Estimates based on observed dyno max. hp and torque, plus 15% allowance for drivetrain losses.
Note that the difference between my estimates of crank torque for the TC 96A engine and the TC 103 engine (10 lbs./ ft) is consistent with H-D's claim that the TC 103 engine makes 10% more torque than the TC 96A engine.
Also note that the nuovo California's engine is competitive with the TC 103 with less displacement -- 1400cc (85 cu. in.) vs. 1688cc (103 cu. in.).
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Have fun boys, I can see it starting already! :pop
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Good data and helps to really put the Cali 1400 in perspective (a good one).
I don't pay as much attention to the big twins, but I thought there were multiple versions of the TC96a in the same year for a few years, with the FLH models getting a higher output motor, but maybe it was the 96 vs. 103 thing.
Anyway, one of the attractions of the Cali 1400 is the more reasonable motor size, and the lower weight, albeit I was hoping for even less.
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I'm seeing it priced at 4000 pounds more than the Stelvio in England.. that would put it well into Beemer and Harley country.
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Wow.. great pix!! Thanks for posting!
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http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/2013-moto-guzzi-california-1400-touring-ambassador-review-91469.html
Programmable ECU ?
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http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/2013-moto-guzzi-california-1400-touring-ambassador-review-91469.html
Programmable ECU ?
Some of you guys just don't pay attention lol :P
There are 3 different ECU maps the rider can select, basically differences in fueling, timing and traction control.
I think they're called something like touring, sport/speed, and wet or similar terms.
Selections are made through the instrument cluster and one report said the starter switch but maybe that was a typo.
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I'm seeing it priced at 4000 pounds more than the Stelvio in England.. that would put it well into Beemer and Harley country.
really more on an alternative to a Gold Wing or an Electra Glide.
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I was reading the online workshop man today to get an idea of things. The 1st rear drive oil change is @ 40,000km, that's 25,000mi. The drive shaft looks like it's from a car. The exhaust has a flexible piece right before muffler for the engine shaking on rubber mounts.
And in the heads, Hydraulic Tappet Rollers!!!! OH MY an 8V Hydro motor. How many fixes will this one need?
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Cycle World gets in its first unfair kick:
"7. Moto Guzzi California 1400
This large bike, available in Touring and Custom versions, traces its lineage to 1970, when the LAPD chose
the Moto Guzzi V7 Police over Harley and the Japanese to be the agency’s patrol bike. Now, more than 40
years later, we get the California 1400, considered by many to be the star of EICMA. Taking center stage is its air-cooled, 1380cc V-Twin, which features a Y-shaped manifold with long runners that help it produce 96 hp and 88.5 ft.-lb. of torque at only 2750 rpm—quite helpful in an 843-pound machine. Officers Malloy and Reed of Adam 12 fame would approve."
The stated weight is exactly 100 lbs above what Guzzi claims: 337 kg "kerb weight (fully equipped)" = 743 pounds, not 843. I can't help thinking this is not an innocent error, but a little snipe meant to help set first impressions against Guzzi because of its meager advertising budget. Call me cynical.
Here's the url: http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/11/20/ten-new-motorcycles-to-ride-in-2013/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/11/20/ten-new-motorcycles-to-ride-in-2013/)
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Maybe it's just a typo,
Mark
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Cycle World itself is a typo
take that dumbo's
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Cycle World gets in its first unfair kick...
The stated weight is exactly 100 lbs above what Guzzi claims: 337 kg "kerb weight (fully equipped)" = 743 pounds, not 843. I can't help thinking this is not an innocent error, but a little snipe meant to help set first impressions against Guzzi because of its meager advertising budget. Call me cynical.
Here's the url: http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/11/20/ten-new-motorcycles-to-ride-in-2013/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/11/20/ten-new-motorcycles-to-ride-in-2013/)
The whole article reads like it was written by a 14-year-old. Malloy and Reed didn't ride motorcycles, either.
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Other than getting the weight wrong I think it is a relatively flattering blurb.
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Title of Cycle World article:
TEN NEW MOTORCYCLES WE’RE DYING TO RIDE IN 2013
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I wish their article was correct. If so, the new California would be an amazing machine indeed!
Taking center stage is its air-cooled, 1380cc V-Twin, which features a Y-shaped manifold with long runners that help it produce 96 hp and 88.5 ft.-lb. of torque at only 2750 rpm
As I recall, the formula for determining hp, if the torque and rpm are known, is:
hp=torque (in ft lb) x rpm
5255
What it works out to is:
(88.5 x 2750) / 5255 = 46.31hp
She'll have to be spinning considerably faster to generate 96hp, CW seems to be loose and easy with their data in this write-up.
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I am not sure if you are questioning the HP figures or just the grammar.
The HP is at considerably higher RPMs. I believe at 6500.
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I am not sure if you are questioning the HP figures or just the grammar.
The HP is at considerably higher RPMs. I believe at 6500.
Questioning the article's implication that 96hp is developed at 2750rpm. Of course it is probably just a small omission that escaped a proof reader.
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They obviously got the weight wrong AND forgot a comma....nothing to see here, move along.
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I think Kevin Ash of The Telegraph likes it.
"The Touring comes closer to the California’s traditional role as a Euro cruiser, styled on classic custom lines after Harley-Davidson but with superior handling, ride and higher-speed cruising ability." (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorcycle_manufacturers/moto-guzzi/9692716/Moto-Guzzi-California-Touring-review.html)
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02406/Guzzi_California_2406994b.jpg)
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^^^ Nice first look. The comments about fuel economy and range are peculiar, though.
First, the fuel capacity is 5.55 US gals., not 4.5 gals. However, the range the author quoted for a 30 mpg consumption rate is correct for 5.55 gals. Strange.
More strange is that 30 mpg figure. That is terrible gas mileage. Maybe the engine was very tight; Guzzis have a notoriously long break-in period, over which fuel consumption usually improves. Maybe the author just got his math wrong.
Moto Guzzi is quoting a 15% fuel economy improvement over the 1200 8V engine. Is anybody seeing 30 mpg or less from their 8V Stelvios or Norges? A 15% improvement in fuel economy should yield a consumption rate of around 45 mpg and a 250-mile range.
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The fact that this motor, or one essentially identical in the way it is cooled, has been around for over half a decade and the clowns at Cycle World still refer to it as 'Air Cooled' should tell you everything you need to know about their standard of 'Journalism'.
Pete
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As for the weight, Guzzi's claim of a 580 lb dry weight on my Vintage was pure fantasy. It was off by over fifty lbs. As has been suggested before, I guess we'll just have to wait to get some verifiable facts.
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As for the weight, Guzzi's claim of a 580 lb dry weight on my Vintage was pure fantasy. It was off by over fifty lbs. As has been suggested before, I guess we'll just have to wait to get some verifiable facts.
You weighed your CalVin, dry? The reason why I'm questioning this is because "dry" means: no fuel in the tank or anywhere in the system; no trace of oil anywhere in the bike -- engine, transmission, or driveline; no brake fluid anywhere in the system; no battery installed; no air in the tires; and no accessories, factory or otherwise. Add all of those things to the bike, and it will easily increase the observed weight by more than 50 lbs.
I would say that for the CalVin, dry weight 580 lbs / wet weight 640 lbs, is about right. Given the added size and extra equipment of the nuovo California, a 100 lb increase in weight is about what I'd expect (although I was hoping for maybe 30 or 40 lbs less).
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^^^ Nice first look. The comments about fuel economy and range are peculiar, though.
First, the fuel capacity is 5.55 US gals., not 4.5 gals. However, the range the author quoted for a 30 mpg consumption rate is correct for 5.55 gals. Strange.
More strange is that 30 mpg figure. That is terrible gas mileage. Maybe the engine was very tight; Guzzis have a notoriously long break-in period, over which fuel consumption usually improves. Maybe the author just got his math wrong.
Moto Guzzi is quoting a 15% fuel economy improvement over the 1200 8V engine. Is anybody seeing 30 mpg or less from their 8V Stelvios or Norges? A 15% improvement in fuel economy should yield a consumption rate of around 45 mpg and a 250-mile range.
Well, as you know I was already skeptical about their claims based on the general inaccuracy of many of their (and other manufacturer) claims. That said I still wonder what Guzzi claims as the mpg for a Norge or Stelvio anyway?
And it's entirely possible this new bike does show a 15% increase under some ridiculous, not realistic condition, like running 40 mph in 5th for hours at a time or some similar silliness.
Sheep, dry weights (lie weights) are like crankshaft hp, they are a way to compare apples to apples with what most other manufacturers provide. But that doesn't mean the figure given by Guzzi is incorrect. It's still a good starting point to understand the mass of the bike in question.
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You weighed your CalVin, dry? The reason why I'm questioning this is because "dry" means: no fuel in the tank or anywhere in the system; no trace of oil anywhere in the bike -- engine, transmission, or driveline; no brake fluid anywhere in the system; no battery installed; no air in the tires; and no accessories, factory or otherwise. Add all of those things to the bike, and it will easily increase the observed weight by more than 50 lbs.
I would say that for the CalVin, dry weight 580 lbs / wet weight 640 lbs, is about right. Given the added size and extra equipment of the nuovo California, a 100 lb increase in weight is about what I'd expect (although I was hoping for maybe 30 or 40 lbs less).
I did not weigh my Vintage, but Cycle World did in their October, 2008 issue. They listed dry weight at 629 lbs. Even if their weighing only excluded fuel, the other fluids can only tip the scales at around 6 lbs, for a total delta between dry and wet of about 36 lbs (my understanding of "dry weight" includes a battery without acid...if it doesn't include the battery, it is a misleading and untrue metric). On top of everything else, the Vintage "feels" like it weighs well over 600 lbs. I'm guessing mine weighs at least 665 lbs wet...more with the topcase. Don't get me wrong; the Vintage is still a lightweight within the "Bagger" genre (it was the lightest in the 8 bike CW comparo by 117 to 237 lbs) and I really love it. However, Guzzi's published dry weight is indeed "fantasy".
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How would Cycle World weigh a dry bike?
They are not given crated bikes, they ride their bikes to and from the press fleet.
They're certainly not going to empty the fluids to weigh it.
Every magazine I've ever read either have the manufacturer provided dry weight OR their own measured wet weight.
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As I stated above, CW probably considers "dry" to mean "fuel tank empty". Just the same, non-gasoline fluids can only account for about six lbs and five gallons of fuel is just a little over 30 lbs...
OTOH, I'd be delighted to be wrong.
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no air in the tires...
:bow
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Guzzi's published dry weight is indeed "fantasy".
No, it's not.
Motorcycle manufacturers are fortunately moving away from quoting "dry" weights, but in the past, manufacturer's quoted dry weights have been without the battery installed. Adding all fluids, a battery, and air in the tires, will typically result in a "ready-to-ride" weight of around 50 - 70 lbs greater than the factory dry weight; more for some larger bikes -- particularly those that are water-cooled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_testing_and_measurement
By industry standards, the CalVin's quoted dry weight of 263 kg (580 lbs.) is about right. Cycle World may have quoted a different dry weight, but that's probably because Cycle World has given dry weight a different definition from that given by the manufacturer. (It's likely that what CW calls dry weight is the weight as delivered, but without fuel.)
Either version of dry weight may be considered a "fantasy" in that you can't start the bike up and ride it in that condition, but that's not the point. The ready-to-ride weight of the CalVin is around 640 lbs. -- pretty close to 580 lbs. plus what 5.02 US gal. of fuel (@ 6.073 lbs./gal = 30.50 lbs.), 3 liters of motor oil and 1 liter of gear oil (8.0 lbs), and a filled battery (17.0 lbs.) weigh.
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And in the heads, Hydraulic Tappet Rollers!!!! OH MY an 8V Hydro motor. How many fixes will this one need?
Wait. The roller tappets are hyraulic? I thought they were going to be mechanical. So, no valve adjustments? A bold move, indeed.
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Ash is a good guy and I enjoy his write ups. He's usually kind and favorable to Guzzis but he is a British journo who will display a bias for British bikes. The mpg numbers are about what I expected so no big surprise for me in that area.
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Looking at the parts manual there are still adjusters on the rockers. One assumes it will be a 'Set and Forget' system. I just hope that the people who are working on them will in fact read the bloody book before embarking down the track of screwing things up.
I haven't had a chance to look at the manual yet. There are some differences between what's on the Servicemotoguzzi site in the US and here and I haven't checked to see if its up on ours yet.
Pete
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This link should work if people want a squizz at the handbook.
http://www.servicemotoguzzi.com/public/lumGuzzi/Moto%20Guzzi%20California%201400/B063711%20Moto%20Guzzi%20California%201400%20ES-EN.pdf
Pete
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If those mpg numbers are accurate this bike will have a range as short as the Jackal which is a little disappointing. I also don't see a good reason for a cruiser or touring bike to deliver worse fuel mileage than a car that is more than double the weight.
That said, hydraulic lifters are a huge plus for this bike.
More and more, I like this bike and see some real reasons why I might chose it over a Road King in the future.
I'll be watching it the next year or two as I enjoy my imminently to be delivered V7.
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Steve? Looking at the service schedule in the online manual it sez valve clearance adjust every 10,000km?
Pete
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Steve? Looking at the service schedule in the online manual it sez valve clearance adjust every 10,000km?
Pete
Sooo which is the mistake?
Could be the maintenance schedule...or could be the listing calling em hydraulic....
I'm hoping it's the former.
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I'm downloading the manual PDF at the moment Kev. I'm sure as soon as Steve and I or anyone else Cantrell up we'll give what will hopefully be he or react and definitive answer.
Pete
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The only thing I can get is the user man, workshop is only online here is US, and no parts info on US site.
Funny thing is when you hit the label for valve adjustment, you get a blank page on redirection.
Looking at the pics of the rockers, it has the 3mm w/locknut like 8V Norge. It does state they are hydraulic in the assy of them (lifters).
Just had a long day.
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All the workshop stuff is subject to copyright so I can't link it up here but Steve should be able to look at it (Nudge, Wink,) if it isn't available to him. As he's discovered though valve clearance adjustment instructions lead to a blank page. Yes, the service schedule says Adjust every 10,000. Then the manual talks about hydraulic roller tappets implying non adjustability but the also the rockers have lash adjusters.
???
I'll bug Daniel tomorrow...... ;D
Pete
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:bow
Italian air is very heavy, almost triple the weight of American air which varies slightly by state, Texas being the lightest.
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The workshop manual doesn't look complete. We've seen in the past another time that the servicemanual got a lot more pages after a time. I see on page 245 a link to "Checking the valve clearance" leads to nowhere. I can't find how much the play should be. Also like in the past lot of pictures from old models. You see, the head has two sparkplug holes, when I see one, it's an old picture. Not any harm, maybe, but you can never be shure that the pictures are right.
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Longer and, I think, more expansive and flattering, review by Ash on his own site. Lists valve service intervals at 6k miles? Anyhow. http://ashonbikes.com/content/moto-guzzi-california-1400-touring
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http://www.performancemag.it/tecnica-dentro-al-progetto-california/
(http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/images/061400engi.jpg)
(http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/images/09cruiseco.jpg)
(http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/images/11elastoki.jpg)
(http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/images/12finaldri.jpg)
(http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/images/071400engi.jpg)
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I get to ride it next week. Nyah-Nyah!! ~; :BEER: :P
Pete
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As have all the late model single platers. I haven't X-referenced the part #'s but I wasn't aware the clutch had changed. Quite happy to be wrong.
Pete
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OK, I'm in front of my computer now and have my spreadsheets and magazines etc handy.
As for the weight, Guzzi's claim of a 580 lb dry weight on my Vintage was pure fantasy. It was off by over fifty lbs. As has been suggested before, I guess we'll just have to wait to get some verifiable facts.
In my spreadsheets I've got a wet weight for the Cal-Vin of 616 lbs. which is a reasonable (and expected) 36 lbs more than the dry.
Similarly Guzzi claimed a dry weight of 553 lbs for the Black Eagle and MCN showed a wet of 589 lbs, which is again 36 lbs.
I don't see the reason for the angst over Guzzi's specs.
Now that said, they've changed to reporting Curb Weight on some of the newer models like this Cal 1400, so we'll have to see once someone like MCN gets their hands on it if the weights match up like you say, but I'm optimistic.
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I get to ride it next week. Nyah-Nyah!! ~; :BEER: :P
Pete
we expect a comprehensive and unbiased report. Good enough so half the board will buy you a beer and the rest will lynch ya!
:BEER: :BEER: :BEER:
~; ~; ~; ~; ~; ~; ~; ~; ~; ~; ~; ~;
:beat_horse
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I thought the new Cal was supposed to be designed for the US market. Shouldn't it be coming here first?
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I think that the factory tends to release new models, especially if there are substantial changes, in Europe and the smaller markets first. That way if there are teething problems they can try and sort them out before the machine is released in the generally much more demanding American market. Its not a theory that always pans out, look at the tappet failure fiasco on the earlier 8V's. hopefully Guzzi have learnt their lesson and will make a greater effort to ensure their products are serviced correctly to prevent the same thing happening again.
Pete.
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Cycle World just corrected the weight from 843 to 743 pounds:
Andrew Bornhop • an hour ago −
Moto, the Guzzi weight has been corrected. Thanks.
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I thought the new Cal was supposed to be designed for the US market. Shouldn't it be coming here first?
What Pete said plus its summer here and there is no recession, something about making hay while the sun shines.
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Just got back from testing the new California in France. It's big! It handles! More pics here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.484648414913984.112577.124570650921764&type=1&l=beae88d602 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.484648414913984.112577.124570650921764&type=1&l=beae88d602)
(http://s9.postimage.org/d99xaq1qj/cali1400.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/d99xaq1qj/)
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Motorcycle Daily first ride:
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/11/md-first-ride-2013-moto-guzzi-california-1400/
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Cycle World just corrected the weight from 843 to 743 pounds:
;-T
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Motorcycle Daily first ride:
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/11/md-first-ride-2013-moto-guzzi-california-1400/
A very favorable review by Motorcycle Daily!
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maybe the weight issue is better than we thought?
I was checking MG Specs:
Fully Equipped bike is 742 lb
The "Kerb Weight" is 709 lb for the Dresser & 661 lb for the Criuser.
I think my EV was about 620 lb without the bags & windshield.
OK, it might be pure fiction but the new bike is in the 50 lb heavier range than the old Cali? Maybe I'm missing something or drinking the Koolaid but this sounds promising.
:o
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Does anyone know if the gas tank is steel or plastic?
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The "Kerb Weight" is 709 lb for the Dresser & 661 lb for the Criuser.
The curb weight of what? Are you referring to versions of the Cal 1400???
I think my EV was about 620 lb without the bags & windshield.
MCN put a 1999 Cali EV at a wet weight of 605 lbs.
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It's 620lbs dripping wet. :BEER:
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California Vintage is heavier than the EV; California 1400 is heavier than the Vintage. The extra features and equipment aren't free.
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koolaid
:BEER: :BEER: :BEER: :BEER: :BEER: :BEER: :BEER: :BEER:
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koolaid
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/advrider/bert.gif)
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If anybody in England is curios enough about whether the valves need adjusting on the nuovo California, I see that this is available:
http://compare.ebay.com/like/370699905480?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
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If anybody in England is curios enough about whether the valves need adjusting on the nuovo California, I see that this is available:
http://compare.ebay.com/like/370699905480?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
The answer isn't in there.
Pete and Steve have already reported that the relevant section is missing.
Actually, I believe the whole engine teardown section is missing currently.
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I assumed that if the book is for sale, it had been completed. Maybe not.
Anyway, here's an interesting photoshop -- the California 1400 in red:
(http://i49.tinypic.com/2s9yecp.jpg)
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I assumed that if the book is for sale, it had been completed. Maybe not.
Well, the first thing I'll note is that I'm almost certain that's an illegal copy that is being sold (along with the rest of what that Ebay seller is offering). Last time I checked Guzzi manuals sold for more like $100+ not $11.00.
But more importantly, Steve and Pete have downloaded the manual directly from Guzzi. I don't think there's going to be a more complete copy than what the dealers have available.
Adding a different color to that bike (other than black) really changes the look. When everything is black it makes it one big mass/black hole. But color on the tins breaks this up really nicely. I like it, even if red wouldn't be my choice.
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When everything is black it makes it one big mass/black hole.
Exactly why I do not like black wheels either.
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Exactly why I do not like black wheels either.
Funny, I'm the opposite - but it's largely because I'm practical.
I mean, I do like the way black wheels blend into the tire making it look like one large mass.
But more importantly, I like motors, swingarm/fork components, and wheels to be black so they tend to hide grease, oil, brake dust, road tar etc.
I like the contrast to be in the bodywork.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk7lf-IoqAQ
Sorry it's in French.
Dean
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****
Anyway, here's an interesting photoshop -- the California 1400 in red:
(http://i49.tinypic.com/2s9yecp.jpg)
Quite nice.
Any chance you can do that in Carabinieri blue? I'll spring for a (better) beer for your trouble next time you visit the Quad Cities. :BEER:
Bill
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(http://thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/Images_II/C14Blue.jpg)
****
Easy. I won't attempt H&D though. ;D
:drool
Thanks, Carl.
That is a winner. Like it even better than YCRN's red version.
I either need to wait for one of those or -- the WAY smarter choice on all sorts of levels -- buy a beater old Cali and get it up in Carabinieri livery. Already have most of the decals; just waiting on the right Guzzi. I mutter about repainting the HDM, but that would be like painting over a Da Vinci. :D
Bill
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Looks great in blue. ;-T
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk7lf-IoqAQ
Sorry it's in French.
Dean
Dean,
That's a MUST SEE video. It looks as though the rider exerts very little effort banking it into turns, and it also looks like he's having a lot of fun.
Thanks for posting.
Moto
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The video transcends language, appears that this big bagger can drive at least as well, likely better than any of its competion.
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Wow, the red and bue really look great. My favorite color combination was the blue and silver on my 2000 Bassa. Can you photoshop a blue/silver version of the C14?
Thank You,
Mark
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Dean,
That's a MUST SEE video. It looks as though the rider exerts very little effort banking it into turns, and it also looks like he's having a lot of fun.
Thanks for posting.
Moto
Yes, impressive video. Fine scenery, too.
The last few secs with the engine vibrating just a bit as the sun sets are darn nice.
Allez!
Bill
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Yes, impressive video. Fine scenery, too.
The last few secs with the engine vibrating just a bit as the sun sets are darn nice.
Allez!
Bill
Great Vid.. .Too bad we don't have a translation, but it seems to be effortless to ride. Looks really good on the road. Interesting camera shots whilst underway!
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I think they should have used a couple of lower tone horns, or a couple of horns that quickly alternate, or this idea where a normal crap horn sounds first for 3 or 4 seconds, and if you keep the horn button down, the much louder air horn (wolo like) will sound automatically next.
http://www.gizmag.com/screaming-banshee-motorcycle-horn/22994/
Great idea.... can still give a friendly 'toot' or hold down the horn button continuously for a much louder horn a few seconds later.
[/color]
Search in ebay for a "Stebel Nautilus" you can find them for around $50, not sure if they come with a relay, but they would need one. Have one on my KLR650 and it is very effective.
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"Quirks aside, the California's an impressive beast. It handles well, the steering is perfectly neutral and the bike changes direction with astonishing agility considering its size, making it a real pleasure on twisty mountain roads where it ought to be a handful."
That's from a "review" by a UK website called Bennett's. I don't know a thing about them. It looks like a report based on the French press event, judging from the photos. Here's the link, FWIW:
http://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2012/2012/december/2013-moto-guzzi-california-1400-touring-first-test/#.UMUZVxBNezo (http://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2012/2012/december/2013-moto-guzzi-california-1400-touring-first-test/#.UMUZVxBNezo)
**************************************************************************************************************************
EDIT: I've now noticed that this "review" is apparently based on reading the ashonbikes.com review, and borrowing some photos from the same set used in Ash's review. Sorry not to have detected that earlier. M.
**************************************************************************************************************************
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Local dealer had sales brochures rock up today.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=3GCo8e2_L74&NR=1A video viewed from the 1400's tank mount.
The second half of this video shows at great length the lean angles achievable and ground clearance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc5iIBJvrXQ
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The second half of this video shows at great length the lean angles achievable and ground clearance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc5iIBJvrXQ
For the record, I'm a fan of this bike and I WANT it to be excellent. I want it to convince me it's a better mount than an RK when the time comes to add one or the other to the fleet.
But that video was NOT impressive regarding handling or lean angles.
It's probably fine, but that's not evidence of it to me.
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For the record, I'm a fan of this bike and I WANT it to be excellent. I want it to convince me it's a better mount than an RK when the time comes to add one or the other to the fleet.
But that video was NOT impressive regarding handling or lean angles.
It's probably fine, but that's not evidence of it to me.
Yes, boring riding there. It needs someone to push it a bit in the corners.
What I fear, a bike with a small fuel tank. They call it a 'touring' model, but the luggage is small and the range on a tank is barely going to be 100 miles I suspect. Hopefully there will be fixes in the future.
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Yes, boring riding there. It needs someone to push it a bit in the corners.
What I fear, a bike with a small fuel tank. They call it a 'touring' model, but the luggage is small and the range on a tank is barely going to be 100 miles I suspect. Hopefully there will be fixes in the future.
Wayne.. for the market this bike is after, 100 miles is all you can tolerate before you have to replenish your beer... It's perfect !
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Wayne.. for the market this bike is after, 100 miles is all you can tolerate before you have to replenish your beer... It's perfect !
OK.
But will a six pack fit in the luggage?
:BEER:
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What I fear, a bike with a small fuel tank. They call it a 'touring' model, but the luggage is small and the range on a tank is barely going to be 100 miles I suspect. Hopefully there will be fixes in the future.
Yes, good points. They do show two different topcase options available, 50 liters and 60 liters. That would help with the beer.
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How is the nuovo California's luggage capacity small? The side bags are 35L; that's halfway between the Hepco-Becker juniors (40L and 30L). That's 70 liters of storage. Add the 60L top case, and that's 130 liters of storage.
The favored set-up for the prior California models is a pair of the 40L Juniors and the 45L top case. That's 125 liters of storage. So, the new model gives you an extra 5 liters of space. You're welcome. :P
IMO, 40 liter bags would look absurd on that bike, and if you travel by motorcycle with more than 130 liters of stuff, you're doing it wrong.
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How is the nuovo California's luggage capacity small? The side bags are 35L; that's halfway between the Hepco-Becker juniors (40L and 30L). That's 70 liters of storage. Add the 60L top case, and that's 130 liters of storage. IMO, 40 liter bags would look absurd on that bike, and if you travel by motorcycle with more than 130 liters of stuff, you're doing it wrong.
There is another way...
About 207 liters right here:
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2010-September-24-New-Mexico/i-3jssLQ5/0/M/DSCN7150-M.jpg)
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(http://www.ashonbikes.com/sites/default/files/ash_images/articles/121124/Guzzi_Cal_14_01.JPG)
Looks like a reasonable lean angle is attainable.
The 4.5 Gallon tank is a big mistake. On a bike that big surely they could find room for another gallon or so to allow for a safe 200 mile range.
Then again, I am not the target market for this bike so what I think probably shouldn't account for much.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk7lf-IoqAQ
Sorry it's in French.
Dean
Translated loosely they loved the handling, the power, everything about the bike. Only negative if you want to call it that is at near the end of the video the guy mentions that they heading back Cannes slowly as the low fuel light came on with only a little over 100km on the tank! From the tone I am assuming the rapid fuel consumption was due to very spirited riding on the twisty roads along the Cote D'Azur :-)
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(http://www.ashonbikes.com/sites/default/files/ash_images/articles/121124/Guzzi_Cal_14_01.JPG)
Looks like a reasonable lean angle is attainable.
The 4.5 Gallon tank is a big mistake. On a bike that big surely they could find room for another gallon or so to allow for a safe 200 mile range.
Then again, I am not the target market for this bike so what I think probably shouldn't account for much.
First thing I am going to do is paint the exhaust end caps black
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Looks like a reasonable lean angle is attainable.
In the picture you posted, if you draw a line along the shadow under the bike, that corresponds to the angle of the pavement in the photograph. Set another line perpendicular to that one, at the base of the rear tire. Then draw a line through the middle of the rear tire. That line corresponds to the lean angle, and is at just about 45'.
The 4.5 Gallon tank is a big mistake. On a bike that big surely they could find room for another gallon or so to allow for a safe 200 mile range.
The tank is 4.5 gal. to reserve, with a 1.0 gal reserve; total is 5.5 gal. If the nuovo California follows Guzzi custom, the reserve light comes on way, way, way before you need to stop for fuel. I'm interested to see what kind of gas mileage these bikes will get, once broken in. Moto Guzzi is quoting around 45 mpg, but so far, it looks like the press bikes are not coming anywhere close to that kind of fuel consumption. A bigger fuel tank might spoil the styling, but I wonder if there is room under the seat for an auxiliary gallon or so....
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(http://www.ashonbikes.com/sites/default/files/ash_images/articles/121124/Guzzi_Cal_14_01.JPG)
That looks promising.
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The tank is 4.5 gal. to reserve, with a 1.0 gal reserve; total is 5.5 gal.
If it truely is 5.5 gallons, that would be tolerable. I thought is was 4.5 TOTAL, which is FAR too small for a 1400cc land barge.
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(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd94/mwheaties/guzzi1400.jpg)
If I follow the shadow as a reference point as someone suggested, it works out to about 33deg. If the shadow is generated by light from behind, then the ground line should be moved toward the eye which would make for less lean. If the road margin line and barrier wall are to be believed, then the angle is much steeper.
Just adding fuel to the fire....
Matt
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If not already posted here, go to www.cyclenews.com for a really good/thorough road test article. ;) Cali. 1400 on this week's front page CN issue !
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Yet another poorly written review, why can't these guys get the facts right?
I did find the following interesting, assuming its correct. The Cal has 5 degrees more lean on both sides than a Road King, and the author pulled 39 mpg for the day.
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Well I think it is a great review. Makes me want to buy one. Facts not perfect, but glowing comments.
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Is the 39mpg from an Imperial gallon? If so, that's a bit more volume than the American gallon. Sure was a nice article though. All except the alarm system anyway.
Thank you for the link,
Mark
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Wheaties, I think you're base line is off.
Look at the white line on the edge if the road and the stone/mortar wall for a better reference to vertical and horizontal.
Those points of reference suggest more lean.
Chad, I wonder where they got that figure? If true, that's not bad. But heck, that last pic suggests it could even be more.
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I thought it was a good article. Most of the facts seem correct, to me. I could quibble over the transmission history lesson, but, big deal.
Five degrees more lean than a Road King would be 38' each way. (Not bad, but I had predicted 41.5'. :P ) I still think it looks like more than 40' from some of the photographs.
The mpg figure (39) is at least reasonable in this article. The author says the tank holds 5.4 gal, but I'm sure I've seen 5.55 gal reported. Even at 5.4 gal and 39 mpg, though, range is 210.6 miles. So, the effective range is around 200 miles, if you're brave. I'd call that fair or barely adequate. If the tank is actually 5.55 gals, range is 216.5 miles. If after break-in the bike can get at least 42 mpg, that would be 233.1 miles from a 5.55 gal tank, at which point I would say the range is good, as I would feel comfortable planning fuel stops every 200 miles.
The heat comments are starting to worry me. Riding in full gear, in Florida, in the summer, is bad enough. A motorcycle that dumps heat on the rider is a problem for me. My Norge was just bearable in the Florida summers -- just. (My EV runs significantly cooler than my Norge did.)
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;-T
Cycle News/Alan Cathcart tested the new California. Good favorable review.
He only got 39mpg in mixed riding. I wonder if it'll improve after break in - sure hope so...
http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20121212#pg37 (http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20121212#pg37)
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Wheaties, I think you're base line is off.
Look at the white line on the edge if the road and the stone/mortar wall for a better reference to vertical and horizontal.
Those points of reference suggest more lean.
Chad, I wonder where they got that figure? If true, that's not bad. But heck, that last pic suggests it could even be more.
Kev,
I agree, and those lines definitely suggest more lean if the wall and road edge are actually perpendicular to the bike. I don't see enough in the picture to confirm or deny whether that is true. If the wall is significantly closer to the camera on the right hand side, that would account for the relative angle. To be honest, there's very little to establish the plane of the road, but if you see something I don't, by all means, we can try that.
Measured from a base line parallel to the road stripe, I get 49 degrees, measured from a line parallel to the top of the wall, I get 46.5 degrees. To me that suggests that the wall and road are nearer to the right and farther to the left. Either way, it's fun to try to establish that lean.
Matt
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd94/mwheaties/guzzi1400_2.jpg)
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Ooooo, good point.
And I remain more optimistic.
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(http://www.ashonbikes.com/sites/default/files/ash_images/articles/121124/Guzzi_Cal_14_01.JPG)
Looks like a reasonable lean angle is attainable.
The 4.5 Gallon tank is a big mistake. On a bike that big surely they could find room for another gallon or so to allow for a safe 200 mile range.
Then again, I am not the target market for this bike so what I think probably shouldn't account for much.
roadking can't do that.
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Most Roadking owners can't do that.
Fixt!
;)
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the RKs simply don't have the lean angle. You'd be sliding on the boards Big Mike.
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the RKs simply don't have the lean angle. You'd be sliding on the boards Big Mike.
Yeah. Just kidding around. What I should've edited it to was: "Roadking owners don't care", and there'd be a whole lotta truth to it...
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Very good, in depth article. The Cal1400 isn't on my radar, except as it relates to the future of the Moto Guzzi brand. Lean angles, fuel range, whatever . . . it's hard to imagine anyone chipping away much at the empire HD has established here in the states. The culture is too embedded. I'd be happy to be wrong about that! I think the best hope is that the basic R&D that Piaggio has invested in the Cal1400 manifests throughout it's range, ultimately raising MG's stock as a practical choice for the average road bike shopper. It has that potential.
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Very good, in depth article. The Cal1400 isn't on my radar, except as it relates to the future of the Moto Guzzi brand. Lean angles, fuel range, whatever . . . it's hard to imagine anyone chipping away much at the empire HD has established here in the states. The culture is too embedded. I'd be happy to be wrong about that! I think the best hope is that the basic R&D that Piaggio has invested in the Cal1400 manifests throughout it's range, ultimately raising MG's stock as a practical choice for the average road bike shopper. It has that potential.
Keep in mind that Victory has built a pretty good business chipping away at the empire. When the empire is as big as it is and Guzzi is as small as it is, it's not a bad idea.
If they could get 1% of HD owners to buy one, what would that do to their sales volume overall? I suspect they would be pretty happy with that.
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Keep in mind that Victory has built a pretty good business chipping away at the empire. When the empire is as big as it is and Guzzi is as small as it is, it's not a bad idea.
If they could get 1% of HD owners to buy one, what would that do to their sales volume overall? I suspect they would be pretty happy with that.
Exactly. 1% of HD's production would be about 2500 machines.
2500 bikes is more than 25% of Guzzi's current production.
Keep in mind that Honda shares the street motorcycle market with Harley in the USA. Together they own 50%.
If Guzzi can pull a few metric cruiser customers and a few aging sport-touring customers and a few HD customers, they'll have a (Guzzi-sized) home run!
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I don't get the smallish fuel tank. They learned thier lesson with the Stelvio and came back with a correct-sized tank for the mission.
The Cal 14 is slated against motorcycles with 6-gallon tanks returning 45-50 mpg.
5.5 or smaller tank from a bike getting high 30s really sucks, IMNSHO...
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I agree on the fuel tank, but are the competitors really returning 45-50 mpg, or more like 35-40?
Or is this another case of rating vs real life?
Also, IIRC last I saw Harley alone was 50% of the US street bike market, Honda being next closest, but less than 25%.
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The author of the article is British and their gallons are larger than the US but would hope he converted his numbers to the US gallon but since he was riding in France and they use the liter he had do some converting anyway.
I didn't see where he used the on board computer to get his mileage or as I would do used a pencil when re fueling.
Since the 1400 comes with three different fueling maps I wonder if each map would give a different MPG rating?
What errors did people read in the article which I thought overall was good and lengthy.I don't put a whole lot of faith in reading a testers comments on a bike they rode if I did I would never have bought my first Guzzi and that goes double for those clowns I hung around with in the early 70's
The six speed box on the 1400 is all new to this model?
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Also, IIRC last I saw Harley alone was 50% of the US street bike market, Honda being next closest, but less than 25%.
I understood the numbers as:
HD with 50% of the USA cruiser market.
The big cruiser market is about 50% of the USA motorcycle market.
Honda and HD each vary between 25% and 28% of the USA streetbike market.
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^^^^ IIRC, this is correct. However, I think your earlier point is both accurate and more significant. H-D sells around 250,000 bikes per year (down from a pre-recession high of around 300,000); if the nuovo California snags 1% of those customers -- it's a home run for Moto Guzzi.
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Nope, I think you're getting confused by monikers like "big cruiser".
The 50% was all registered street bikes.
The 25/28 MIGHT be accurate if you include non street (dirt/ATV).
I specifically remember some data that a bud shared from Triumph (he was a a Triumph dealer at the time). The data was from new bike registrations and Harley was (to my surprise at the time) clearly equal to all others added together, with Honda being closest, but still a fraction.
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Nope, I think you're getting confused by monikers like "big cruiser".
The 50% was all registered street bikes.
The 25/28 MIGHT be accurate if you include non street (dirt/ATV).
I specifically remember some data that a bud shared from Triumph (he was a a Triumph dealer at the time). The data was from new bike registrations and Harley was (to my surprise at the time) clearly equal to all others added together, with Honda being closest, but still a fraction.
Harley claims to own the over 651cc market, and they do.
The streetbike market usually includes everything over 50cc. There are a lot of motorcycles sold in the USA in the 250cc to 650cc range.
If you add dirtbikes, HD moves way down the list. Honda builds millions of vehicles (18M) when you include offroad and under 50cc.
HD trades places with Honda for streetbikes (over 50cc) in the USA. Like I mentioned, each owning about 25% +/-.
Anyway, here are some links I quickly searched up. Just like with any other statistics, I'm sure they can be made to suit any side of an argument... And, for the life of me, I can't find the old links showing Honda 25% and HD 28%... Maybe my memory is failing me ?!?!?!
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/honda-q1-2012-sales/
"Harley is holding on to 56% of the $4 billion market for heavyweight motorcycles, those with displacements higher than 650 cubic centimeters."
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/09/bullshit-harley%E2%80%99s-young-adult-market-share-and-other-damned-lies/
"The key in all this is the “heavyweight” category, an outdated classification from the MIC that dates from the 1970s when a 650cc Bonneville was a big, fast motorcycle. “Heavyweight” motorcycles start at 651cc, which means all 600cc sportsbikes, 650cc twins like the SV650 and Ninja 650 and, critically, popular learner fodder like the Kawasaki Ninja 250 are excluded from that class."
http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/industry-news/2011/01/25/harley-davidson-increases-u-s-market-share
"The Motor Company stated that U.S. 651+cc sales were down 14.6% for the year, while Harley sales were down only 11.7% for the year. Their U.S. market share in that segment increased to 54.9% from 53.3% a year earlier and 45.4% in 2008."
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/583/9085/Motorcycle-Article/Honda-Makes-18-Million-Motorcycles-in-2010.aspx
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Rocker - As far as I can see none of your links contradict what I said.
I'm well aware that what stats HARLEY reports are "651cc and larger" or "super-heavyweight" or whatever the hell they call it. But I SPECIFICALLY SAID "registered on-road" bikes. And look closer at some of your sources and you'll see that the majority of the UNDER 650cc are NOT registered on-road bikes these days (at least from the stats). They're dirt bikes.
For instance - your own source (and I read this article last year)
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/09/bullshit-harley%E2%80%99s-young-adult-market-share-and-other-damned-lies/
"The key in all this is the “heavyweight” category, an outdated classification from the MIC that dates from the 1970s when a 650cc Bonneville was a big, fast motorcycle. “Heavyweight” motorcycles start at 651cc, which means all 600cc sportsbikes, 650cc twins like the SV650 and Ninja 650 and, critically, popular learner fodder like the Kawasaki Ninja 250 are excluded from that class."
You missed the following from the same source:
Our analyst provides some context: “H-D accounts for over 60% of the on-road market, all displacements. Even if only 10% of those Hogs are being bought by the under 35′s, that’s about 20,000 bikes, more than any single other manufacturer in the US could claim… on road. What that statistic says more than anything, is that H-D has US market saturation, making any kind of statistical claim possible, depending on how you chose to categorize the data.”
and
According to WebBikeWorld, 520,502 motorcycles of all kinds were sold in the US in 2009, down from a high of nearly 1.1 million in 2005. Harley says it shipped 223,023 motorcycles during 2009, representing about 43 percent of total sales (this total includes off-road).
So you see, as I said - 50% or more for ALL ON ROAD REGISTERED IN THE US - but that number drops significantly if you include OFF-ROAD.
Again, my data, and maybe the thread is still here, showed a representative snapshot of the US (this was a specific territory in the mid-west of my buddy's specific territory, but his data suggested it was represantitve of the US in general). It had total motorcycle registrations by brand for the territory - might have been a one month time-frame, I forget. Anyway Harley WAS CLEARLY 50% of total with no one other manufacturer getting anywhere near.
Go to a Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, or Yamaha dealership and see what they're selling. Dont' get me wrong, they obviously sell sportbikes, and some cruisers, and some standards/tourers, but MORE AND MORE square footage is devoted to dirt bikes and ATVs for a reason.
Hell, look at how few bikes Kawasaki and Suzuki imported into the US the past few years, selling leftovers.
Look at the recent Suzuki of America Ch 11/reorganization. They're just not selling the volume they need.
I forget the exact monthly numbers I'm talking about but Harley was 100 and something in that territory and I believe BMW was 9.
Here's another example which that agrees with that:
In the release, BMW didn’t make it clear whether that improvement was in the US or globally. In 2009, BMW sold 87,306 bikes globally and 9,168 bikes in the US.
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Kev:
for the life of me, I can't find the old links showing Honda 25% and HD 28%... Maybe my memory is failing me ?!?!?!
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OOOOPs, sorry, trying to move data to new laptop, watch a 1-year old, and read the BB is obviously spreading myself way too thin. :BEER:
Like I said, I SUSPECT those stats include dirt bikes and scooters or something like that or maybe it's worldwide (but then Harley should be MUCH lower). I dunno man, maybe I can't think of a way to make those 25 and 28 numbers work??? ???
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As was mentioned earlier, all Guzzi has to do is grab a tiny fraction piece of the large HD and metric pie and they'll have a success with the Cal 14.
I think they will have it. ;-T
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As was mentioned earlier, all Guzzi has to do is grab a tiny fraction piece of the large HD and metric pie and they'll have a success with the Cal 14.
I think they will have it. ;-T
;-T ;-T ;-T
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Come on guys, one of you has to have the bigger dink! :D :D
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Come on guys, one of you has to have the bigger dink! :D :D
Why is it that when we're hashing out the proper data someone has to think it's about ego?
I really don't think Rocker is in any way insecure.
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As was mentioned earlier, all Guzzi has to do is grab a tiny fraction piece of the large HD and metric pie and they'll have a success with the Cal 14.
I think they will have it. ;-T
In theory, and perhaps in practice now with this 1400, this is correct. Grab a small market share of the big boy's pie. Seems to be working quite well when we look in areas like adventure bikes and such where everyone has hopped into the game, hoping to get a part of the GS' major sales. And with Guzzi, it seems like this has seemingly been the prevailing logic for a while now; that is, get a few of the HD buyers to cross over. And with this new 1400 maybe they will now achieve it. I sure hope so, but it does make me wonder sometimes. Back in Guzzi's big day in the States, was it because they were creating bikes similar but different from HD? Was it because they had a cool police bike contract? Or was it just chic at the time to ride Italian? I'm honestly asking? Why did Guzzi have such success back in the day versus today's market. Was it because the product then was really more comparable to the bikes of the time? If so, then I probably think this new 1400 will see some success since it more closely resembles other big cruisers that are selling well out there. But again, I wasn't around back then in Guzzi's heyday and I wonder if there's anything to learn from that time that applies now at all?
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Police contracts; created visiability so many folks wanted them. Would not be a bad idea to get California to buy Guzzi again.
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Guzzi's heyday was in the early '70s when they had the LAPD and CHP contracts.
The Eldo/Ambo were great alternatives to 'glides.
Mandelo was pumping out 50,000 bikes per year in like 1972 (though that was short-lived).
The problem today is that the contracts are VERY competitive and have service contracts and buy back guarantees that are expensive for the manufacturers.
HD pretty much has the market locked up. BMW has made some inroads.
It's great advertising, but very expensive for a small builder like Guzzi to get into the game.
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I have heard, but have not independently confirmed, that H-D leases the police Road King to law enforcement agencies for $1.00 per year. If that's the case, then between that and the "buy American" image, it would be very difficult for Moto Guzzi, or any other motorcycle manufacturer, to make significant inroads on that market.
IIRC, in addition to BMW offering a version of the R1200R to law enforcement, Honda has a police ST1300 and Kawasaki has a police Concours 1400. I don't believe that any of these bikes are big sellers.
I'm not saying that Guzzi shouldn't try to re-establish their presence in the law enforcement market. Certainly, California agencies would be the logical place to start. However, I think the broader point is that Harley-Davidson are the masters at marketing "heavyweight" cruisers. In trying to sell the nuovo California, Moto Guzzi shouldn't necessarily take a page out of Harley's book; they should copy the whole thing! (Okay, maybe not the chapter on dressing like a gay pirate....)
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I have heard, but have not independently confirmed, that H-D leases the police Road King to law enforcement agencies for $1.00 per year.
I spoke to a motor officer recently who told me that program has been rolled back. Our village now buys its Harleys instead of leasing them.
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I'd like to see what an LAPD or CHP version of the nuovo California would look like. Maybe someone here with some photoshop skills would like to take a crack at it?
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I'd like to see what an LAPD or CHP version of the nuovo California would look like. Maybe someone here with some photoshop skills would like to take a crack at it?
Some euro. countries use Guzzis for police bikes and once in awhile we get a pic of what they look like.
Back in the `90's I talked to a CHP officer when they were using HDs. He told me if the public knew their HDs only went up to 98 mph they would be in trouble. Hence they now ride BMWs. I don't see a Cali. 1400 being won over a BMW oilhead. :-X
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wow... almost 70 pages... I'm in!
ohh - and I still like the CalVin better than this pig.
(http://media.motorbox.com/data/contenuti/0000043036/img/640/moto-guzzi-california-1400-8c4f1665fc6f650261588ae4c0fb4d46.jpg)
(http://databikes.com/imgs/a/c/t/p/s/moto_guzzi__california_vintage_2006_1_lgw.jpg)
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wow... almost 70 pages... I'm in!
ohh - and I still like the CalVin better than this pig.
(http://media.motorbox.com/data/contenuti/0000043036/img/640/moto-guzzi-california-1400-8c4f1665fc6f650261588ae4c0fb4d46.jpg)
(http://databikes.com/imgs/a/c/t/p/s/moto_guzzi__california_vintage_2006_1_lgw.jpg)
REALLY?
There's a lot to like about the Cal-Vin - but I got most of it out of my system when I sold the Jackal.
Me - I'd take the new Cal 1400 over a Cal-Vin tomorrow.
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REALLY?
There's a lot to like about the Cal-Vin - but I got most of it out of my system when I sold the Jackal.
Me - I'd take the new Cal 1400 over a Cal-Vin tomorrow.
Kev, how can you say that without having ridden the new bike? Were you just so certain the Jackal didn't suite you well, or maybe you are just talkin looks?
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how can you say that without having ridden the new bike?
Based on the reported power/torque of the new 1400 mill, I'd say for loaded 2-up touring, the new bike will walk away from the old one.
One of my bigger complaints I could lodge against my former Bassa was that it simply didn't have enough power when riding 2-up.
The Cal 14 seems to have addressed this in a big way. Max torque at 2750 for the new bike vs. max torque at nearly twice that rpm for the Cal Vin.
Probably the biggest complaint for me on these types of bikes is the seating position. Feet forward and knees high really hurt on long rides. I'd much rather ride the more standard V7 Classic, or my Nero Corsa.
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Well, the Nuovo California is supposed to be an improvement over the Cal Vin. Hopefully, it is everything people like about the Cal Vin, only more of it, plus cures for what people don't like about the Cal Vin.
From the looks of it and the early ride reports, it seems that Guzzi has nailed it. At least, nobody is talking major misfire. IMO, the only things the Cal Vin has over the California 1400 are 100 lbs less weight and a lower price. While the increase in weight and cost are regrettable, all of that "new and improved" has to come at a price.
Which reminds me -- Any word on US prices?
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Well in terms of my Jackal that difference in weight seems to be rather remarkable at closer to 200lbs. Look, it appears to be a great bike and many improvements that needed to happen. It's not for me with that kind of weight, certainly less efficient, I do worry it will diminish the overall everyday use of the bike that I find in my current Jackal. Lots of Rocket 3 guys have told me how their bike is fun and relatively nimble for its size but maybe not the best bike in the garage for all around everyday use. Right now, for having only one bike, I'd take the Jackal. I'm sure I'm relatively alone in that preference and I'm okay with that.
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Based on the reported power/torque of the new 1400 mill, I'd say for loaded 2-up touring, the new bike will walk away from the old one.
One of my bigger complaints I could lodge against my former Bassa was that it simply didn't have enough power when riding 2-up.
The Cal 14 seems to have addressed this in a big way. Max torque at 2750 for the new bike vs. max torque at nearly twice that rpm for the Cal Vin.
Probably the biggest complaint for me on these types of bikes is the seating position. Feet forward and knees high really hurt on long rides. I'd much rather ride the more standard V7 Classic, or my Nero Corsa.
I've got to disagree with you. The Cali doesn't have low end power like a Harley but the top end is pretty good. Keep the revs up over 4k, keep it 4th until 80. I've done an indicated 105 with 2 up and the Mrs dozin' in the back seat.
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I've got to disagree with you. The Cali doesn't have low end power like a Harley but the top end is pretty good. Keep the revs up over 4k, keep it 4th until 80. I've done an indicated 105 with 2 up and the Mrs dozin' in the back seat.
For Marcia and me, same load/same road, the V11 Nero Corsa is more comfortable and much more powerful than the Bassa was.
After watching all the Californias at the campouts, my desire to have one was reignited, so I got the Bassa from JAZZ in Chicago.
Pulling the trailer and hauling Marcia, the Bassa just couldn't cover the miles comfortably like the Nero Corsa can.
Yes, I know we're members of a fringe minority... :BEER:
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Kev, how can you say that without having ridden the new bike? Were you just so certain the Jackal didn't suite you well, or maybe you are just talkin looks?
Jackal suited me fine, except for all the repairs and all the things I didn't like about it (like internal oil filter for example).
That said there has been sufficient analysis of the handling that tells me this would work out for me.
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R59- Cali doesn't have the power of a V11 LeMans. I think it would leave a (stock) RK from 30-100 mph and anywhere there is a corner.
IMHO
Perhaps that's not a fair comparison to the RK which would probably be more comfy on the interstate and can be "built" with a lot of power.
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Well in terms of my Jackal that difference in weight seems to be rather remarkable at closer to 200lbs. Look, it appears to be a great bike and many improvements that needed to happen. It's not for me with that kind of weight, certainly less efficient, I do worry it will diminish the overall everyday use of the bike that I find in my current Jackal. Lots of Rocket 3 guys have told me how their bike is fun and relatively nimble for its size but maybe not the best bike in the garage for all around everyday use. Right now, for having only one bike, I'd take the Jackal. I'm sure I'm relatively alone in that preference and I'm okay with that
Been there, done that, moved on.
That said the wet weight on a Jackal is probably around 600 (especially accessorized), so the difference is probably 150, but feels like less due to center of gravity.
And though I'm enjoying smaller bikes a lot, I never had a problem around town with a Road King.
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VA, how can you be comfy tossing the new Cal under the buss before ever taking it for a spin?
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Been there, done that, moved on.
That said the wet weight on a Jackal is probably around 600 (especially accessorized), so the difference is probably 150, but feels like less due to center of gravity.
And though I'm enjoying smaller bikes a lot, I never had a problem around town with a Road King.
My point still stands. The old Cali is a fantastic all around, all purpose machine, that is actually capable of being a very "fun" motorcycle. I've read enough about this new bike to know it's a different kind of beast.
And I'm not saying the new bike wouldn't work for me. Who wouldn't want one. It's gorgeous, has lots of new ponies, more comfortable, smoother, and many more features than ye old model. And you are probably right about those numbers on the loaded Jackal. This being said, I just can't believe a bike that will be pushing close to 800 pounds won't present more challenges in given situations than the old Cali. And I've had too many owners of such bikes tell me the same. That weight and fuel consumption too, is nothing to brush off. I don't even remotely question Kevin Ash's who got about 28-30 US mpg, that's about what I figured the bike would get. These things plus the heat issue that has been mentioned by just about every person who HAS actually ridden it, then my Jackal starts to look nicer and nicer to me parked out back. Taken individually, none of those issues with the new Cali bother me much, but when I start to put them all together, and then look at my own bike, well then I gravitate to what I view as the positives of my bike. Someone else will very justifiably prefer the new Cali for the new features mentioned.
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Was wondering if the US dealers had heard from Piaggio about prices and dates.
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(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/web-mot-Craig.jpg)
Tennessee Yellow Jackets.
I remember that guy! Bassist for DEVO, right?
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VA, how can you be comfy tossing the new Cal under the buss before ever taking it for a spin?
I just think it is butt-ugly.
Sorry, I won't ride a bike that I don't like the looks of.
But who am I?
I've got the Christmas tree of Guzzis!
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/VASean2005/TriptoMGNOC2008NationalRally007-1.jpg)
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I just think it is butt-ugly.
Sorry, I won't ride a bike that I don't like the looks of.
But who am I?
I've got the Christmas tree of Guzzis!
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/VASean2005/TriptoMGNOC2008NationalRally007-1.jpg)
And it's beautiful for sure. In some cases, though, beauty is in the function, and even though I consider my Stelvio ugly, I still like it.
But once I'd looked at the 1400, read off the weight and dimensions, etc., I don't need a test ride to know I'll never buy one.
Lannis
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And it's beautiful for sure. In some cases, though, beauty is in the function, and even though I consider my Stelvio ugly, I still like it.
But once I'd looked at the 1400, read off the weight and dimensions, etc., I don't need a test ride to know I'll never buy one.
Lannis
yeah --- then there's that!
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^^^^^ I'm a big fan of the Cali 1400, but even I was taken aback by his description of the bike as "one of the great motorcycles of the last 100 years." Rats! Just as I had talked myself out of getting one.
But wait! There's more: "Piaggio’s truly appalling sales and service arms, and the company’s utter contempt for its customers, will ensure that the California will become a financial disaster...." Ahhh... that's better.
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Just my humble opinion, but Moto Guzzi should have done up the Coppa Italia like this:
(http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/wildgoose/Moto_Guzzi_Coppa_Italia_LeMans_Fairing.jpg)
BTW, this isn't a PhotoShop job. Looks a lot like Christmas candy. Frikkin' gorgeous.
Nice find, Carl! :+1
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Was wondering if the US dealers had heard from Piaggio about prices and dates.
I had a few minutes between calls this afternoon. so I stopped by at Matthews Fun Machines. They said 19k.
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I had a few minutes between calls this afternoon. so I stopped by at Matthews Fun Machines. They said 19k.
Is that a guess or the official word?
And which model, the stripped one or?
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I had a few minutes between calls this afternoon. so I stopped by at Matthews Fun Machines. They said 19k.
My EV is looking better every day.
Dean
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From the Matthews blurb:
"Attention that makes every Moto Guzzi California a unique piece, able to marry and to emphasize the strong personality of a passionate and exclusive clientele."
Doesn't that make you feel special folks?
Nick
(PS. the whole blurb is a wonderful example of Google translate's best).
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Mathews has a page up with the 1400's details .... looks like the base unit they are showing, but call for price.... (and don't spread bad rumor$)
http://www.matthewsfunmachines.com/showcaseproductdetail.htm?id=18129121&brand=1701&type=&pos=32
well they have a touring page too:
http://www.matthewsfunmachines.com/showcaseproductdetail.htm?id=18129228&brand=1701&type=&pos=29
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Is that a guess or the official word?
And which model, the stripped one or?
I would guess the base model, but I wasn't really specific, I just threw out 17 and he shot back with "19 or at least that's the plan", we'll see. I also asked when he "spring" to which I said "what year?" lol I don't think they understand Guzzi time. But it will probably prove accurate.
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Unless Piaggio adds road side assistance to the nearest dealer they will have build the best mouse trap that only the mice will appreciate as they chew on them for years to come in warehouse and show rooms.
Even 17K will be too high for the stripped down models. Look at thewhat competition sell for with better networks and parts availability. I hope the big P doesn't "fudge" this bike up by trying to recoup the big investment in the first year of sales.
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Just wondering if I'm the only one who finds the market the new California pitched at confusing. When I first heard about it I was quite intrigued by it, I assumed they would take advantage of the technology they had over the traditional big heavy cruiser / touring end of the market ie overhead cams four valve heads the ability too design decent frames, suspension and brakes and come out with a higher revving / powered cruiser with taught agile handling and reasonably light weight for its class.
They could have built a very unique bike, a cruiser with forward controls that goes handles and stops complete with Italian styling, You can be sure Ducati would never go there and its dynamics would be far superior to the likes of anything Harley is putting out.
Instead they aim it directly at the Harley Road king, a market that has enormous brand loyalty to Harley and understandably so. For that market you need enormous capacity long stroke engines,(which MG doesn't have) 2 valve push rod engines are perfectly suited (no advantage in OHC and 4 valve heads here).
Just look at where the torque peaks at in at on the new California (2750) hell not even Harley produces it that low, and yet despite their efforts to engineer this smaller capacity, shorter stroke higher revving engine to produce torque down low it wont produce anywhere near the torque of that enormous capacity, long stroke Harley engine and as such in this class of bike will be considered to small a capacity engine lacking torque
On top of that they give it huge wheelbase, much bigger than the Harley and as if that weren't enough they kick the steering angle out to extreme levels to the point where I wonder if it will actually handle any better than the road king. Yes it is a bit lighter than a road king but in this class of bike they simply don't seam to care about weight
It may just be me but I just can't help but feel they have lost an opportunity to tap into what could have been a new market, and have instead gone after the most copied and heavily occupied segment there is, armed with engineering that is not suitable for that class of bike
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merged.
who knows what they were thinking?
basically, they're bringing a big cruiser to the big cruiser market.
we don't know what thier benchmark was, though some have speculated Road King.
this has been discussed ad nauseum in the many posts above...
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Just wondering if I'm the only one who finds the market the new California pitched at confusing. When I first heard about it I was quite intrigued by it, I assumed they would take advantage of the technology they had over the traditional big heavy cruiser / touring end of the market ie overhead cams four valve heads the ability too design decent frames, suspension and brakes and come out with a higher revving / powered cruiser with taught agile handling and reasonably light weight for its class.
They could have built a very unique bike, a cruiser with forward controls that goes handles and stops complete with Italian styling, You can be sure Ducati would never go there and its dynamics would be far superior to the likes of anything Harley is putting out.
Instead they aim it directly at the Harley Road king, a market that has enormous brand loyalty to Harley and understandably so. For that market you need enormous capacity long stroke engines,(which MG doesn't have) 2 valve push rod engines are perfectly suited (no advantage in OHC and 4 valve heads here).
Just look at where the torque peaks at in at on the new California (2750) hell not even Harley produces it that low, and yet despite their efforts to engineer this smaller capacity, shorter stroke higher revving engine to produce torque down low it wont produce anywhere near the torque of that enormous capacity, long stroke Harley engine and as such in this class of bike will be considered to small a capacity engine lacking torque
On top of that they give it huge wheelbase, much bigger than the Harley and as if that weren't enough they kick the steering angle out to extreme levels to the point where I wonder if it will actually handle any better than the road king. Yes it is a bit lighter than a road king but in this class of bike they simply don't seam to care about weight
It may just be me but I just can't help but feel they have lost an opportunity to tap into what could have been a new market, and have instead gone after the most copied and heavily occupied segment there is, armed with engineering that is not suitable for that class of bike
All the ride reports I have seen including one by our own Vasco de Gama say this thing handles. With more ground clearance than the other cruisers & great power delivery. I'll keep on drinking the koolaid until proven otherwise.
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I didn't have the opportunity to explore its handling potential.
Pete
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Just wondering if I'm the only one who finds the market the new California pitched at confusing....
I assumed they would take advantage of the technology they had over the traditional big heavy cruiser / touring end of the market ie overhead cams four valve heads the ability too design decent frames, suspension and brakes and come out with a higher revving / powered cruiser with taught agile handling and reasonably light weight for its class. They could have built a very unique bike, a cruiser with forward controls that goes handles and stops complete with Italian styling, You can be sure Ducati would never go there and its dynamics would be far superior to the likes of anything Harley is putting out.
You must be confused, because what you say the nuovo California is not, is exactly what it is.
Every commentator who has seen the bike praises its uniqueness, its high-tech features, and its Italian styling.
All ride reports to date praise the nuovo California for its class-leading handling.
"Heavy" is a relative term. The nuovo California weighs 100 - 200 lbs less than competitive touring cruisers.
Since when is a 1400cc engine not high capacity? That's 85.4 cu. in., close enough to H-D's iconic twin cam 88 that the difference is insignificant. It's smaller that 1600 or 1800cc, but consider performance, to wit:
The 8V 1400cc engine puts out 90 ft./lbs. of torque. How is that "nowhere near" the 100 ft./lbs. that the current H-D 103 cu in engine makes? (Earlier Harley big twin engines made less than 90 ft/lbs. of torque.) In addition to making that torque sooner, the engine puts out 90 hp, about 20 hp more than the H-D 103 engine. Twenty more hp, plus peak torque 500 rpm sooner, plus 100+ lbs lighter = brisker performance.
Your last sentence is internally inconsistent, contradicts the premise that you started with, and makes no sense to me.
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Since when is a 1400cc engine not high capacity? That's 85.4 cu. in., close enough to H-D's iconic twin cam 88 that the difference is insignificant. It's smaller that 1600 or 1800cc, but consider performance, to wit:
Since everyone went to 95, 103, and 110 cubic inches.
Guzzi's 80 cubic inch engine is "mid sized" in the cruiser world.
Tonti Californias have always been up against this. Someone asks "what size is the motor?" and they lose interest very quickly when you respond with "1100".
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^^^ Not 80; 1400cc = 85.4 cu in. Hey, either size matters, or it doesn't. Plus, there are probably still more TC 88 engines in circulation than all of the 96, 98, 101 and 103 engines, combined.
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^^^ Not 80; 1400cc = 85.4 cu in. Hey, either size matters, or it doesn't. Plus, there are probably still more TC 88 engines in circulation than all of the 96, 98, 101 and 103 engines, combined.
That may well be the case but living in the real world the new California is up against the new road king which has a 1700cc engine with 134 nm torque compare that to a 1400cc and 120nm ,and I fear the person in that market only looks at engine capacity and will walk away
I'm not suggesting that guzzi has done a bad job of building a heavy tourer, I feel they have done well especially the torque for such a small motor.
Its just that I believe a smaller stroke/ capacity engine as the 1400 would have been put to better use in a more sporting lighter platform and to hell with the heavy touring class (which is totally dominated by Harley anyway)
Me I'm waiting for them to put this engine into a new Norge with a higher state of tune ie much bigger throttle body, more aggressive cams, more compression and all with traction control WOW
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^^^ Not 80; 1400cc = 85.4 cu in. Hey, either size matters, or it doesn't. Plus, there are probably still more TC 88 engines in circulation than all of the 96, 98, 101 and 103 engines, combined.
The 1400 is not 1400cc. It's more like 1380, which is more like 84.21 cubic inches.
But it doesn't matter. Cubic inches matter to the average pirate, and the new California doesn't measure up for those who place importance on displacement.
The TC88 is dead. It's in the past. 80 cubic inches was the HD standard for many years. It's also dead and gone.
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But it doesn't matter. Cubic inches matter to the average pirate, and the new California doesn't measure up for those who place importance on displacement.
GUYS GUYS GUYS - WHO CARES about the "average" Harley rider. Guzzi is never going to pull the majority of Harley riders away from the brand anyway - no matter what the CC or performance or look or ________________.
Guzzi is HOPING to pull a percentage, a small one for HD, the fringe riders who have additional priorities.
And maybe a few BMW riders who are fed up with BMW.
And maybe a few GW riders who are looking for something with more flair.
Etc.
A SMALL percentage of Harley sales alone would be a boon to Guzzi.
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Agreed. A few hundred sales per year in the USA will be a homerun for Mandello.
Guzzi will not pull hardcore owners from any brand. It may pull a few non-committed owners and potential owners from across the spectrum, though.
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Seems like a lot of gnashing of teeth for a motorcycle only a couple of us have even seen in person. I think it will be one of the best selling Guzzi's ever. That is merely my personal opinion. Everyone makes and sells a cruiser style M/C with different degrees of success. Most more successful than Guzzi in the past 10 years. Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Triumph, Suzuki, Victory, ...where did those sales come from? The average HD rider? I don't think there is an average HD rider, at least the ones I know. I used to ride one.
The existing California hasn't been a viable modern bike for the past several years. Yes I say this even as I own one. Nothing really up to date here in my opinion. The new California 1400 appears to be a clean sheet modern design, at least for it's genre. It should appeal to many riders of all of the above makes riding or considering cruiser style bikes. It may appeal to those with touring bikes, i.e. Goldwings, Concours, etc that are looking for more relaxed ergos. Guzzi will get a piece of the pie, a filling helping for them if the price is competitive.
Now I realize many base their buying decisions on the mag "experts" and their reviews and recommendations. I think the Guzzi will acquit itself well, but who knows. They can be the difference in large numbers of sales.
Will I buy one? It is on my list of possible future purchases, but so are 6-8 other diverse models. I like change.
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GUYS GUYS GUYS - WHO CARES about the "average" Harley rider. Guzzi is never going to pull the majority of Harley riders away from the brand anyway - no matter what the CC or performance or look or ________________.
Guzzi is HOPING to pull a percentage, a small one for HD, the fringe riders who have additional priorities.
And maybe a few BMW riders who are fed up with BMW.
And maybe a few GW riders who are looking for something with more flair.
Etc.
A SMALL percentage of Harley sales alone would be a boon to Guzzi.
+1 The bike is not my cup of tea but imagine several years ago if nobody decided to go after GS sales. Now the market is loaded with bikes in the "adventure" class. Whether the market is sustaining all of these different bikes, I dunno, but I daresay Ducati is happy they sure did some Beemer chasing. I dunno if this California is gonna be the new Multistrada to
Harley's dominance of the big cruiser class, but as noted, it doesn't really have to be. I daresay even a smidge of that market would be significant for MG.
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"Tonti Californias have always been up against this. Someone asks "what size is the motor?" and they lose interest very quickly when you respond with "1100".
Just tell them the hp and torque figures and they will understand.
"A few hundred sales per year in the USA will be a home run."
Piaggio has invested heavily in the 1400 trying to get a percentage of the American cruiser market, a few hundred won't cut it. The 1400 wasn't designed for the European market where gas taxes bring a gallon of gas to 10 plus dollars and weight and good handling are appreciated. Besides the average European rider is probably 160lbs Vs the average American rider at probably 220lbs, pillion rider are probably double that of Europe. Just sayin.........
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Just tell them the hp and torque figures and they will understand.
No. They don't. BTDT.
Piaggio has invested heavily in the 1400 trying to get a percentage of the American cruiser market, a few hundred won't cut it. The 1400 wasn't designed for the European market where gas taxes bring a gallon of gas to 10 plus dollars and weight and good handling are appreciated. Besides the average European rider is probably 160lbs Vs the average American rider at probably 220lbs, pillion rider are probably double that of Europe. Just sayin.........
Just sayin' what?
What "percentage" of the "American Market" do you think Piaggio expects to own with the Cal 14?
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The old arm chair QB... it never tires.
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Cubic inches matter to the average pirate, and the new California doesn't measure up for those who place importance on displacement.
The TC88 is dead. It's in the past. 80 cubic inches was the HD standard for many years. It's also dead and gone.
I think your view of the American cruiser market is myopic. The move to 1700 - 2100cc cruisers is a recent phenomenon, and does not define the market. It only defines a small slice of the new bike market.
Among new cruisers, there are lots of models with displacement under 1700cc, and their combined sales is probably larger than for bikes over 1700cc. Bikes in the 1900+ range seem to be particularly slow sellers. How many Rocket III's have you seen?
Cruiser riders just don't buy new bikes. The market is overwhelmingly made up of used bikes. Unlike the crash-and-burn disposable Japanese supersports, cruisers are very long-lived. Craigslist is awash with them, and the vast majority are under 1700cc. Going back to my example, the TC 88 is not dead. It's alive and well and enjoyed regularly by hundreds of thousands of motorcycle enthusiasts (you know them as "pirates"), most of whom probably don't care that their Big Twin isn't the biggest of the Big Twins.
So, if you look at the entire market for cruisers in the US, a 1400cc bike is not small -- it's big.
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I think your view of the American cruiser market is myopic. The move to 1700 - 2100cc cruisers is a recent phenomenon, and does not define the market. It only defines a small slice of the new bike market.
To your mind, what "defines" the "cruiser market" in the USA?
Among new cruisers, there are lots of models with displacement under 1700cc, and their combined sales is probably larger than for bikes over 1700cc. Bikes in the 1900+ range seem to be particularly slow sellers. How many Rocket III's have you seen?
Do you have any links to information that supports your assertion?
Cruiser riders just don't buy new bikes. The market is overwhelmingly made up of used bikes. Unlike the crash-and-burn disposable Japanese supersports, cruisers are very long-lived. Craigslist is awash with them, and the vast majority are under 1700cc. Going back to my example, the TC 88 is not dead. It's alive and well and enjoyed regularly by hundreds of thousands of motorcycle enthusiasts (you know them as "pirates"), most of whom probably don't care that their Big Twin isn't the biggest of the Big Twins.
We are talking about "new" California 1400s. They compete with new cruisers in the new market. I have never heard of a manufacturer having a marketing plan to compete with used motorcycles. Have you?
So, if you look at the entire market for cruisers in the US, a 1400cc bike is not small -- it's big.
What is "the entire market" for cruisers in the USA?
You can call 1400cc "big in the entire market" of cruisers all you want. You may well believe that.
Fact is, 1400 is just below the middle of the 650cc - 2200cc displacement range of what is found in cruisers. and, it's less than the 1600-1800cc displacement of the top sellers from Harley/Honda/Yamaha/Kawasaki/Yamaha.
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I think your view of the American cruiser market is myopic. The move to 1700 - 2100cc cruisers is a recent phenomenon, and does not define the market. It only defines a small slice of the new bike market.
Among new cruisers, there are lots of models with displacement under 1700cc, and their combined sales is probably larger than for bikes over 1700cc. Bikes in the 1900+ range seem to be particularly slow sellers. How many Rocket III's have you seen?
Well, we are talking about NEW bike sales, not used. But I could argue that used bike sales of cruisers represent a lot of guys who have mid-ranged (by market standard) cruisers and are either getting out of riding, out of cruisers, or moving to a larger bike.
The small cruiser market is relatively small.
For starters, let's remember that HARLEY sales are more than HALF of the US market - so right off the bat in 2011 (last annual figures I could find) out of about 150k bikes sold in the US market, about 100-125k were a 96 (almost 1600cc) or 103 (almost 1700cc). And for 2012 and 2013 almost all of that 100-125k will be 103 (1700cc). So maybe the proliferation of the Sportster may account for 16% of Harley sales and maybe 8% of US cruiser sales - add to that the Vrod and I'll give you about 10% of US cruiser sales under 1400cc from Harley.
The big 4 Japanese brands represent the majority of the remaining cruiser market, with maybe Triumph becoming a major player.
Hondas look to be pretty much 750cc and 1300cc in that category these days, and I believe they'll make up maybe a solid 10% of the cruiser market (a swag based on their position of US bike sales for registered bikes being about 20% and sportbikes/standards making up a decent chunk of that). So we'll give 10% of the US cruiser market, under 1400cc to them. That number is probably generous as I suspect the Goldwing numbers should be included in the "cruiser" segment (as the touring bikes from Harley) since MOST of the market looks at motorcycles as "Cruisers and Sportbikes" but that's another discussion.
Yamaha taking the next biggest sales chunk has some 650cc, 950cc and 1100cc but even more 1670cc and 1854cc bikes in their "Star" lineup. I think they approach Honda sales figures for US street bikes, and likely share a similar split, with maybe a slightly higher percentage being cruisers as they seem to the metric of choice for a number of the non-Harley guys (maybe that Star branding worked in the end or maybe they just have more of a variety). At BEST this is a wash with maybe 50% of their crusier sales being below 1670cc - so MAYBE their cruisers have 5-10% of the US market and 3-5% under 1400cc.
Suzuki and Kawasaki are almost bit players in this, selling a fraction (well less than half if memory serves) of what Honda and Yamaha do in the US these days. Their lineups were devistated with no or few new bikes imported in the last few years. Suzuki has an 805cc, but the rest are mostly 1462cc and 1783cc. Looks like Kawasaki has some 900cc and 1700cc. Again,
I'd bet that more than half of Triumphs cruiser sales are Bonnie variants, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to Harley and they ARE still selling Tbirds (1600cc) or RIII's (2300cc). Overall Triumph sales are still way below Honda and Yamaha. But I thought I read it being over 10k in Bonnies at one point - so let's credit them with a generous 5% of US sales in UNDER 1600cc cruisers.
SO MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE we're looking at 35% of the US cruiser market is on bikes under 1400cc.
Let's remember that BMW, decided to pull out of the market as their marketing people decided that 1200cc was just to "small" to compete (despite the current R1200 models making 100 rwhp).
NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT MAYBE THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR WHEN IT COMES TO BIKES 1400cc and smaller.
THE VAST MAJORITY OF BIKES IN THE US CRUISER MARKET UNDER 1400cc are PRICED AT OR UNDER $10k with only a handful making it to maybe $12k.
EVERYTHING THAT IS $13k or above is 1600cc or larger and pretty much EVERYRTHING that is $15-19k is 1700cc or larger.
THAT is where the Cali 1400 will meet its biggest resistance is those who look at the PRICE TAG vs. the ENGINE SIZE and stop there. And I suspect (as do most OEM marketing guys from their lineups) is what MOST US customers do.
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Note to self:
If I ever decide to engage Kev M in a debate, BE PREPARED.
At the minimum, have a tablet with Google warmed up very nearby ;-T :BEER: ;D
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I have had a good look at the 1400 Cali in my local dealer (Blackburn England GB) and after sitting on it I decided yes it is big and heavy, viewed from the back it appears to be about as long and as wide as a Rocket111, it had panniers (side bags) fitted which did look decent but alas the panniers wont take a normal sized helmet, yes it will be fine for a good run across europe but on the smaller overcrowded english roads well it could be hard work squeezing in and out of traffic on it, the dealer will not be doing test rides untill around March, the UK price is around £16,000 which is around $25,396
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[/quote]
Well, we are talking about NEW bike sales, not used. But I could argue that used bike sales of cruisers represent a lot of guys who have mid-ranged (by market standard) cruisers and are either getting out of riding, out of cruisers, or moving to a larger bike.
The small cruiser market is relatively small.
For starters, let's remember that HARLEY sales are more than HALF of the US market - so right off the bat in 2011 (last annual figures I could find) out of about 150k bikes sold in the US market, about 100-125k were a 96 (almost 1600cc) or 103 (almost 1700cc). And for 2012 and 2013 almost all of that 100-125k will be 103 (1700cc). So maybe the proliferation of the Sportster may account for 16% of Harley sales and maybe 8% of US cruiser sales - add to that the Vrod and I'll give you about 10% of US cruiser sales under 1400cc from Harley.
The big 4 Japanese brands represent the majority of the remaining cruiser market, with maybe Triumph becoming a major player.
Hondas look to be pretty much 750cc and 1300cc in that category these days, and I believe they'll make up maybe a solid 10% of the cruiser market (a swag based on their position of US bike sales for registered bikes being about 20% and sportbikes/standards making up a decent chunk of that). So we'll give 10% of the US cruiser market, under 1400cc to them. That number is probably generous as I suspect the Goldwing numbers should be included in the "cruiser" segment (as the touring bikes from Harley) since MOST of the market looks at motorcycles as "Cruisers and Sportbikes" but that's another discussion.
Yamaha taking the next biggest sales chunk has some 650cc, 950cc and 1100cc but even more 1670cc and 1854cc bikes in their "Star" lineup. I think they approach Honda sales figures for US street bikes, and likely share a similar split, with maybe a slightly higher percentage being cruisers as they seem to the metric of choice for a number of the non-Harley guys (maybe that Star branding worked in the end or maybe they just have more of a variety). At BEST this is a wash with maybe 50% of their crusier sales being below 1670cc - so MAYBE their cruisers have 5-10% of the US market and 3-5% under 1400cc.
Suzuki and Kawasaki are almost bit players in this, selling a fraction (well less than half if memory serves) of what Honda and Yamaha do in the US these days. Their lineups were devistated with no or few new bikes imported in the last few years. Suzuki has an 805cc, but the rest are mostly 1462cc and 1783cc. Looks like Kawasaki has some 900cc and 1700cc. Again,
I'd bet that more than half of Triumphs cruiser sales are Bonnie variants, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to Harley and they ARE still selling Tbirds (1600cc) or RIII's (2300cc). Overall Triumph sales are still way below Honda and Yamaha. But I thought I read it being over 10k in Bonnies at one point - so let's credit them with a generous 5% of US sales in UNDER 1600cc cruisers.
SO MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE we're looking at 35% of the US cruiser market is on bikes under 1400cc.
Let's remember that BMW, decided to pull out of the market as their marketing people decided that 1200cc was just to "small" to compete (despite the current R1200 models making 100 rwhp).
NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT MAYBE THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR WHEN IT COMES TO BIKES 1400cc and smaller.
THE VAST MAJORITY OF BIKES IN THE US CRUISER MARKET UNDER 1400cc are PRICED AT OR UNDER $10k with only a handful making it to maybe $12k.
EVERYTHING THAT IS $13k or above is 1600cc or larger and pretty much EVERYRTHING that is $15-19k is 1700cc or larger.
THAT is where the Cali 1400 will meet its biggest resistance is those who look at the PRICE TAG vs. the ENGINE SIZE and stop there. And I suspect (as do most OEM marketing guys from their lineups) is what MOST US customers do.
Wow That's pretty much what I felt, especially the last point as its extremely relevant in this case
Like I said earlier, I believe that MG has done A good job of building a heavy class tourer with what they had , its just that that market expects such huge capacity motors nowadays that its only having a 1400 motor will automatically have it dismissed by the vast amount of new bike buyers in that class.
Youcanrunnaked does make a good point though, in that it was only 5-6 years ago that a 1400 would have been acceptable in this class,had this bike come out then I doubt we would be having this same conversion unfortunately, we cant live in the past
I still believe that the new 1400 engine in a higher state of tune say 110-115 hp with decent low down torque and a strong mid range would have made the perfect engine for a light weight sports cruiser, complete with forward controls. Totally different market to a Diavell, think more of it as a far superior V Rod, this is where its 4 valve heads and bore and stroke ratios can be take advantage of
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unfortunately, we can't live in the past.
Exactly.
"In the past", HD big twins were 1200cc and there was nothing bigger.
Five years ago doesn't count. What counts is what the current crop of full sized cruisers displace, and that number starts at 1600 and goes up.
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I finally got my little Honda CB350F running and on the road. Years ago the wife would tour along side husband on his 750 and all was right with the world. Can you imagine the market for a 350 four today if someone was nuts enough to bring it to market much less a UJM 750?
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No. They don't. BTDT.
Just sayin' what?
What "percentage" of the "American Market" do you think Piaggio expects to own with the Cal 14?
Just sayin a few hundred per year in sales in the biggest cruiser market will make the 1400 a failure as it would take a century to recover the tooling investment alone, never mind all other costs. Unless this engine will be used in many more new and existing models and eventually putting water cooled heads. I have said many times on this board that Guzzi in the States is a
miracle not appreciated by many that bitch about dealer support and etc..
Let me add that I personally believe that Guzzi maintains a U.S. presence for the prestige that it brings aided by U.S. tax laws.
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Wow That's pretty much what I felt, especially the last point as its extremely relevant in this case
Like I said earlier, I believe that MG has done A good job of building a heavy class tourer with what they had , its just that that market expects such huge capacity motors nowadays that its only having a 1400 motor will automatically have it dismissed by the vast amount of new bike buyers in that class.
Youcanrunnaked does make a good point though, in that it was only 5-6 years ago that a 1400 would have been acceptable in this class,had this bike come out then I doubt we would be having this same conversion unfortunately, we cant live in the past
I still believe that the new 1400 engine in a higher state of tune say 110-115 hp with decent low down torque and a strong mid range would have made the perfect engine for a light weight sports cruiser, complete with forward controls. Totally different market to a Diavell, think more of it as a far superior V Rod, this is where its 4 valve heads and bore and stroke ratios can be take advantage of
Don't get me wrong, I layed out why this bike is destined to be a niche player and not to take ground from the established leaders. But that doesn't mean it will be a failure.
Harley sold 92,000 FLH tourers in 2011 (Road King, Electra Glide, Street Glide etc).
If Guzzi captures just 1% of THAT - it's 920 bikes.
If Guzzi captures 5% of that - it would be 4600 bikes and they won't be able to keep up with demand.
So it doesn't HAVE TO appeal to the majority of those buyers, it just needs to be attractive enough to the fringe that prioritize something more - hopefully it can deliver that in feel, handling, maybe looks too.
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it doesn't HAVE TO appeal to the majority of those buyers, it just needs to be attractive enough to the fringe that prioritize something more - hopefully it can deliver that in feel, handling, maybe looks too.
Yes. I think you and I both have mentioned the same thing earlier in the thread.
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Just sayin a few hundred per year in sales in the biggest cruiser market will make the 1400 a failure as it would take a century to recover the tooling investment alone, never mind all other costs. Unless this engine will be used in many more new and existing models and eventually putting water cooled heads.
I have no idea how much has been invested in the new California. They will sell as many (or more) in the rest of the world as they will in the USA.
How much "profit" do you think Guzzi will see from each bike? How's about a fun little WAG?: If the MSRP has 25% markup at $18000, That means Guzzi will be selling it to the dealer for $14400. How much of the $14400 will be "profit"? Who knows?, but it means Guzzi will take in $14.4 Million for those thousand bikes. Who knows how they will amortize development cost, but at that rate, the company will be taking in MILLIONS in profit off of this one machine!
I have said many times on this board that Guzzi in the States is a
miracle not appreciated by many that bitch about dealer support and etc..
Let me add that I personally believe that Guzzi maintains a U.S. presence for the prestige that it brings aided by U.S. tax laws.
I thank Carlo everyday for Guzzi's presence in the USA. And I agree, they are here because they want to be here. I don't care why. I am just glad!
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How much of the $14400 will be "profit"? Who knows?, but it means Guzzi will take in $14.4 Million for those thousand bikes. Who knows how they will amortize development cost, but at that rate, the company will be taking in MILLIONS in profit off of this one machine!
Yes. Who knows how much the direct materials and labor will be to build the bike. It is also common for manufacturing costs to be higher in the first one or two production years for most vehicles so I don't think we're talking much in profits. Then there are the overhead costs associated with being in the U.S. N. American headquarters, parts inventories and support structure, dealing with US regulatory requirements (they have to get it DOT approved), U.S. specific marketing, advertising, etc.
I hope Guzzi sells a thousand of these in the U.S. the first year but I wouldn't count on it. I don't think they can count on great sales in Europe to carry it cause people aren't so obsessed with big engines and you pay a premium to own them over there. It's really a pretty big gamble and one I hope pays off. I think Piaggio is not stupid either. I think they knew they were looking at something that would take a decade or longer to pay off in terms of how much they have invested in Guzzi. That is probably realistic.
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$17,999 MSRP, 2013 Touring Ambassador ~GP Motorcycles in San Diego
Sorry if this is old news
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$17,999 MSRP, 2013 Touring Ambassador ~GP Motorcycles in San Diego
Sorry if this is old news
HMMMMMMMMMM If accurate:
Now, IF we see a pattern in the BMW and Triumph prices (and in the Triumph I picked what might be the new Cali’s closest competitor other than the RK), one might make a guess as the following:
California Custom
US - $16,999 (<--SWAG)
UK - £14,499
Cali 1400 Tourer
US - $17,999 (<--SWAG)
UK - £16,529 (<--SWAG)
This would price is at about RK levels (note the RK is priced slightly different from the RK classic priced above, it goes for $17,699-18,504).
and
Comparing every other item from MG, the US figures should be equal. But in US$. Just add your local taxes. ;-T
Are you saying
$12.100 California Custom
$13.500 California Touring
$14.270 California Touring (Ambassador)
OR
$16.790 California Custom
$18.790 California Touring
$19.790 California Touring (Ambassador)
I would think the first is too optimistic and the later is too expensive
SOOO IF that number is correct $17,999 for the full bloat-tourer - then there are a LOT of people who were handwringing over silly conversions from EU pricing over the past year that completely missed the mark by generally $2k or more.
I really hope that's the number. HELL, what would that meazn for the Touring and Custom models below it - $16.5k and $15k?
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The number is an estimate, as stated on GP's website. That being said, I suspect 18K is a fairly likely starting point for the new Cal.
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The number is an estimate, as stated on GP's website. That being said, I suspect 18K is a fairly likely starting point for the new Cal.
Aw man, it's just another swag like mine. Oh well...no victory dance lol.
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The number is an estimate, as stated on GP's website. That being said, I suspect 18K is a fairly likely starting point for the new Cal.
Thanks for clearity on this. Gp info culled from alternate site they advertised on and gp made no referance to msrp being an estimate. Sorry for any confusion...
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California promo ad .... nice beat :pop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wcMMC1nnQo
nice. I hope they have a demo at the National.
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I have no idea how much has been invested in the new California. They will sell as many (or more) in the rest of the world as they will in the USA.
How much "profit" do you think Guzzi will see from each bike? How's about a fun little WAG?: If the MSRP has 25% markup at $18000, That means Guzzi will be selling it to the dealer for $14400. How much of the $14400 will be "profit"? Who knows?, but it means Guzzi will take in $14.4 Million for those thousand bikes. Who knows how they will amortize development cost, but at that rate, the company will be taking in MILLIONS in profit off of this one machine!
I thank Carlo everyday for Guzzi's presence in the USA. And I agree, they are here because they want to be here. I don't care why. I am just glad!
Mike....the tooling investment covers new engine cases castings, swing arms etc.. then you have machine tooling to hold the parts hole being machined, then you have drill gigs, then come the assembly tooling. The engineering R&D and tooling costs to bring this bike to life had to be conservatively at least 10million. Guzzi stated they worked on this bike FOUR years.
Guzzi sold 100K tonti Calls and I'm sure that is the number they were thinking when the amortized the engineering, R&D and tooling.
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California promo ad .... nice beat :pop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wcMMC1nnQo
Thank you for the post and the link. I hadn't seen that before and the new Cali looks great.
All the best,
Mark
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Mike....the tooling investment covers new engine cases castings, swing arms etc.. then you have machine tooling to hold the parts hole being machined, then you have drill gigs, then come the assembly tooling. The engineering R&D and tooling costs to bring this bike to life had to be conservatively at least 10million. Guzzi stated they worked on this bike FOUR years.
Guzzi sold 100K tonti Calls and I'm sure that is the number they were thinking when the amortized the engineering, R&D and tooling.
So, you think they would ammortize R&D for 20-years? That was the lifespan of Cal II through Cal 90.
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So is it time to close this thread or continue to merge?
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So is it time to close this thread or continue to merge?
I wanted to dump everything here when it was all speculation and questions being repeated.
Now that we're getting info like ride reports and press releases with pricing/availability, I think those threads can stand on their own.
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KevM:"So is it time to close this thread or continue to merge?"
The problem with merging every mention of a particular subject is going back through to search a particular subject matter. I don't like sifting through X amount of pages to find something that was in the heading at one time. Just my feeling and think it ruins the new topic at hand. What new topic you say? That's my point.
Just my two pennies.
Kevin
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Just saw the Canadian pricing for the California Touring $18,490 +++
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^^^ If you turn on English captions, the translation is quite comical, but the gist is, the reviewer really likes it. Says it is "Excellent."
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^^^ If you turn on English captions, the translation is quite comical, but the gist is, the reviewer really likes it. Says it is "Excellent."
how did you turn on english, I could only turn on german...
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how did you turn on english, I could only turn on german...
The process is needlessly complicated, and the translation is sometimes hilarious, but, here you go:
1. Start the video. (For whatever reason, changing settings only works while the video is running.)
2. Mouse over to the lower part of the window with the video. A control panel should appear.
3. Click on "CC" ("captions"). A pop-up window shows the options. You'll notice that "Translate Captions - Beta" is greyed out and does not work. Only "German (automatic captions)" is an active choice, so select that. This turns on German captions. (You've already figured this part out, but I'm starting at the beginning for anybody else who wants to try this out.)
4. Once you turn on German captions, the other setting -- "Translate Captions - Beta" -- becomes active (is no longer greyed out). Now, select that.
5. This opens a pop-up window with language choices to translate the captions into, from the German. The first one (and only one shown at first) is Afrikaans. If you click on that, the window expands and shows a drop-down list of languages. Scroll down until English (or whatever else you like), is highlighted. Then click "OK" to select that language.
6. Re-start the video, because by now the darn thing is nearly half over! Enjoy!
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Nice review in Cycle World. If this keeps up, we are bound to lose our exclusivity. ;)
http://touch.cycleworld.com/cycleworld/#!/entry/exclusive-test-moto-guzzi-california-1400-custom-italys-oldest-continuously,5164abc794f4be7169467260
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Wow! A very positive writeup. ;-T
Those close up pics of the 1400 are downright sexy!
Now everyone will want one! :drool
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Now I'm torn between the classic look and comfort of the Touring, and the aggressive look and handling of the Custom. I also like the fact that the bags for the Custom are removable. OTOH, I prefer the non-painted wheels of the Touring.
Which do you think will be more feasible? Will dealers be willing to swap shocks on the Touring, or will it be easier and more cost-effective to add all of the Touring's touring accessories to the Custom?
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I finally got to see one in the flesh yesterday. Very nice. TO Guzzi has both a Touring and a Custom, with the Custom being the demo bike. Although Monica offered me a ride on the bike, I had to turn it down as I didn't have the time (Chuck in Indiana were on our way back from a bimble in the hills). But I'll be back probably Thursday to give it a quick run, then a week from Friday, I'm going to take the Custom to the Rock Store and show it off.
The Touring is WIDE with the bags attached. They don't have the bags actually on the bike (nor the windshield as they are waiting for a bag of hardware to mount the bags and windscreen) but the rails are in place.
It feels pretty good just standing still, and sounds very nice.
Looking forward to giving her a quick ride tomorrow. I think they are going to sell a bunch of these.
jdg
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!!!
The performance Cycle World reports for the Custom is very similar to Motorcycle Consumer News's values for the 1100 Griso (my bike):
Quarter mile:
Cali: 12.48 sec @ 105.6 mph
G11: 12.45 sec @ 106.5
Top speed:
Cali: 126 mph
G11: 129 mph
Mileage:
Cali: 34 mpg
G11: 40 mpg
Not bad, but of course still not a Griso in the corners.
Moto
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Now I'm torn between the classic look and comfort of the Touring, and the aggressive look and handling of the Custom. I also like the fact that the bags for the Custom are removable. OTOH, I prefer the non-painted wheels of the Touring.
Which do you think will be more feasible? Will dealers be willing to swap shocks on the Touring, or will it be easier and more cost-effective to add all of the Touring's touring accessories to the Custom?
I have thought about it, although I am not ready to by now, and I can't see a down side to the custom. It appears to have better suspension, is lighter and cheaper. I gotta believe you will be able to find a decent shield and removable bags for less than $3200. Just my opinion.
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I think MG made the same mistake with the Cal 14 that they did with with the Stelvio when it first came out. Gas tank way too small. I have read that it has a range of 170 miles meaning the low fuel light is coming on at 140 miles. That is a deal breaker for me as I commute to work 60 miles a day and would have to be filling up every other day.
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The custom gets prettier each time I see a new set of photos. I was looking at perhaps getting a Griso towards the end of this year but I could be swayed. Good news for Guzzi - pretty much everyone in my age group I've spoken to thinks it's a great looking bike.
(http://www.cycleworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Moto-Guzzi-California-1400-Custom_002.jpg)
(http://www.raptorsandrockets.com/images/Moto_Guzzi/2013/Custom/2013_Moto_Guzzi_California1400_Custom_TOR%20%286%29.jpg)
(http://www.raptorsandrockets.com/images/Moto_Guzzi/2013/Custom/2013_MotoGuzzi_california_Custom_BarcelonaStaticTOR-%287%29.jpg)
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The custom gets prettier each time I see a new set of photos. I was looking at perhaps getting a Griso towards the end of this year but I could be swayed. Good news for Guzzi - pretty much everyone in my age group I've spoken to thinks it's a great looking bike.
I'm not surprised, nor am I suprised many of the old curmudgeons here don't get that.
Now I was surprised at one thing - HOW THE HECK DID THEY RESSURRECT RYAN DUNN FOR THE ADD CAMPAIGN?
(http://www.raptorsandrockets.com/images/Moto_Guzzi/2013/Custom/2013_MotoGuzzi_california_Custom_BarcelonaStaticTOR-%287%29.jpg)
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Because, baby. Just because...
(https://scontent.fmci1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/12289504_1051591218238675_1824955259335351325_n.jpg?oh=aa5f84fdb156637b19722f9fafb9a347&oe=56EE7CFD)
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Because, baby. Just because...
(https://scontent.fmci1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/12289504_1051591218238675_1824955259335351325_n.jpg?oh=aa5f84fdb156637b19722f9fafb9a347&oe=56EE7CFD)
Because butt ugly needs validation too.
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Reviving this thread here a bit. Nice recent feature on MD review of Audace. Not my cup o tea - prefer the Eldo styling, but nice to see the Guzzi getting some good press.
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2016/03/2016-moto-guzzi-audace-md-ride-review/
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:thumb:
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Because, baby. Just because...
(https://scontent.fmci1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/12289504_1051591218238675_1824955259335351325_n.jpg?oh=aa5f84fdb156637b19722f9fafb9a347&oe=56EE7CFD)
That's the first 1400 that looks good to me.
Dean
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We just got in a new Audace , I'll see it w/I get over to work later. Just spent 4 days cleaning the EV, looks like new again. A bike w/no chrome, the reason I bought my SP in 80. May be my next sidecar tug. I just don't want to spend the $ unless I sell 5 of what I have.