Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lou Snuts on July 28, 2009, 12:50:44 PM
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I've had my Vintage for over a year and 7000 miles but can't get it to handle like my old '96 Cali' did.
The Vintage weaves in a straight line above 75mph, and bucks and weaves through bends if pushed even a little. I've checked all the usual stuff like wheelbearings, headstock bearings, wheel balance and alignment, I've changed the tyres, adjusted pressures, fitted 'Koni's', adjusted front and rear suspension, changed the fork oil and double checked it's quantity. I've stripped screen, panniers and footsheids off - and still it weaves!!!
The official Guzzi web site under 'specifications' states that wheelbase is 1560mm - mine is 1580mm. fork 'rake' should be 29 degrees, mine is correct - but the 'trail' is listed as 116mm !?, this must be a mistake as mine is 165mms (the Belagio is listed as 28degree - 165 combination, which is much more realistic).
Any one had similar problems with a California?
Any suggestions for a fix?
Anybody be kind enough to check their wheelbase and 'trail' and post the result.
It's spoiling an otherwise lovely bike.
Much obliged.
Lou' UK.
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You are on the wrong side of the road? :)
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Changed your tyres to what? I made the mistake of changing the tyres on my '96 to radials. ::) Never again.
Have you looked at the swingarm bearings?
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Not to start a tire thread, but something is wrong if you removed the shield and it still handles poorly. As for radials, at least with respect the now discontinued Dunlop 205's in our sizes, they were the best tire you could put on a cali from a southern california perspective, I've run many sets as have most of the tonti owners in socal, including many, many track days. your bike should handle perfect. have you checked the centering of the rear and front wheel, several methods are mentioned on guzzitech.com. Your vintage should have near sportbike handling, so something is surely amiss
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The Vintage weaves in a straight line above 75mph, and bucks and weaves through bends if pushed even a little.
Sounds exactly like what my EV does if I put radials on it.
What tires?
If you have a radial on the rear, air it up to about 55PSI and see if that helps. If so, look for a stiffer tire.
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Ta for the prompt responses.
Yeh checked the swingarm bearings and wheel alignment, both okay.
It weaved on the original Metzler Lasertech's and on the replacement Bridgestone BT45's - both of which are rated highly by other Cali' owners. Bridgestone recomend 38psi front and 40 rear - but I've experimented with pressures too, to no avail.
Yeh Goose, right side of the road, left, right!
Lou.
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It's a long shot, but bent frame, or forks?
Has the bike even been dropped? Did you buy it new? Is it still under warranty? :-\
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Have you tried to tighten the steering head bearings a little, even though they appear fine?
I assume the spokes are all fine.
You may want to pull the caps and give the swingarm bearings a little touch tighter.
Pretty odd .
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having had a 1999 bassa with BT45's on it and Mikes XS 650 $75.00 shocks and a 2001 cali EV with Metzler Lasertech's works performance shocks. The Bassa would out handle the EV even 2 up. I have since put Michliens on the EV and this past weekend found the head set to be loose, I have not had it out on the road yet .
My past experience is my 2001 EV handles like crap it does not want to go thru a turn. does not realy wobble just requires more body then the Bassa.
Hopefully this weekend i can up date this with a positive report on my 2001 EV
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The Vintage weaves in a straight line above 75mph, and bucks and weaves through bends if pushed even a little.
Sounds exactly like what my EV does if I put radials on it.
What tires?
If you have a radial on the rear, air it up to about 55PSI and see if that helps. If so, look for a stiffer tire.
+1. Rear radial will do this. Ask me how I know.
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My vintage used to weave terrible at anything over 75MPH
Raise the forks about half an inch through the tripple tree that will cure the weaving, it did on mine.
Let me know how you get on
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It's a long shot, but bent frame, or forks?
Has the bike even been dropped? Did you buy it new? Is it still under warranty? :-\
The bike was three months old with just 900 miles on the clock when I bought it - looked spotless, and with the time Guzzi spares take to get I doubt if it has ever had a repair. The story was that the original owner was too small for it, he couldn't reach the side stand! The warranty is now out.
Thanks
Lou
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having had a 1999 bassa with BT45's on it and Mikes XS 650 $75.00 shocks and a 2001 cali EV with Metzler Lasertech's works performance shocks. The Bassa would out handle the EV even 2 up. I have since put Michliens on the EV and this past weekend found the head set to be loose, I have not had it out on the road yet .
My past experience is my 2001 EV handles like crap it does not want to go thru a turn. does not realy wobble just requires more body then the Bassa.
Hopefully this weekend i can up date this with a positive report on my 2001 EV
My old '96 California was a great handling bike, perhaps I'm expecting too much of the Vintage - though it's bordering on 'dangerous' if you push it - shouldn't be that bad.
The swing arm looks quite weak compared to the old bike which had 'beefy' round section arms instead of the narrowed flat section of the newer type (non shaft side) - modified to accomodate a wider tyre I believe. Does any one know if they are they interchangable?
Thanks
Lou.
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Since you are out of warranty, the cheapest first step is to target the tires. Swap the rear out for an 880 in 160/70 and see if that helps. My bike came used with the BT-45 on the back and it was snake bit in the corners and wouldn't hold a line. The Marathon cured it completely. If that settles it down, the next move is to go to the 110/80 on the front (BT45 has that size).
Also, about 5 clicks down on the left fork adjuster (I think it's the "c") makes a difference on the higher speed "swoopers".
Seems like it would have to be a tire or wheel problem if its that bad. I've got the wider rear wheel on my 03 and I've "tried" to keep up with Wayne on his 04. It's not the swingarm ;D
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My vintage used to weave terrible at anything over 75MPH
Raise the forks about half an inch through the tripple tree that will cure the weaving, it did on mine.
Let me know how you get on
Just to clearify. You mean for the tubes to go down 1/2". Correct?
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Throwing this out there.....tires. Take a look at them especially the bead. See if they match up all the way around the rim. Also rub you hand over the sidewalls to feel for any imperfections...bum ps etc. For the heck of it check your spokes to see if they need tightening. See you can eyeball the rims after all of that to check the truing of the rims and spokes.
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I would be interested to see if the bike handled better if you tested it *before* happy hour... :-X
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Thanks again guys for the input;
I've tried just about all combinations of fork settings - including draining and refilling to check for correct oil and quantity.
The spokes, rims and tyre bead all seem fine too, nice and true with the rim - the rear is begining to flatten off in the centre as they always do, but there is no other damage, wear or whip in them. No tyre sealant in the tubes either.
I don't think 'Marathons' are available in the UK. - I read about them here before fitting the BT45's but my tyre guy couldn't get 'em. I'll look into it again.
Thanks once more for the help.
It's 'happy hour' now Atavar and I'm off to bed - it's midnight here.
Cheerzzzzzzzzzzz... .....
Lou.
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QUOTE: "...My California Vintage handles like a dog"
What is up with that?!? :o I thought these CalVin's were supposed to be "rock solid" in the twisties! ??? ???
That would drive me nuts! ::) - and this should not happen on these models - as I understand it..... :-\
In fact, my '07 Road King exhibited the same, dreaded, "rubbery-cow", flexi-frame issues (now corrected on all '09 models) in the turns when going in too fast!
If not a tire issue, I like the guys suggestion about the triple-clamp. Good luck with that!
After some research and installation of a "Pro-Glide-Stabilizer", that took care of the problem (Big Time) on my RK and I believe it was leafman here (?) who turned me onto this fix, so THANK YOU for this leafman!
After test riding an '09, I was seriously thinking about selling / trading mine in, but now, problem solved! :)
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Lots of possibilities mentioned. Might be a good idea to find a local Guzzi guy to take it for a spin. Someone with a lot of experience with newer Tonti bikes. If you don't trust the local dealers, perhaps get in touch with the UK guzzi owners group and see if you can find someone nearby.
It definitely sounds like there is a flaw in your particular bike that needs attention. Good luck. Hope it works out well for you in the end.
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Assuming it isn't tires or headstock bearings (already checked, i believe), then this sounds to me like "vortex induced vibration" or VIV, the engineering term for a (generally) transverse sinusoidal vibration caused by vortex shedding off of a bluff body in a fluid stream.
That is, I agree with Eldo John "Not to start a tire thread, but something is wrong if you removed the shield and it still handles poorly." As a diagnostic tool, try removing the windscreen and see if you get the same symptom. If it wobbles without the screen on, it's likely not the screen (duh) OR the dampener.
Since this has made me curious, if I think about it tomorrow, I'll guesstimate the Reynolds Number (Re, no relation) for the windscreen at 75-85 and see if it doesn't fall into the vortex shedding region (like high 10^5 or low 10^6). Patenthetically, this is why those "laminar lips" on the top of windscreens can be helpful; they tend to move the boundary layer separation point (like a helical strake on a smoke stack does) which suppresses VIV.
We see this in offshore drilling with riser pipes (seabed to vessel) in a 1-4 knot current. It happens at much lower fluid velocities with risers as we're dealing with denser fluid (seawater), but of course at about the same Re number (which is the ROLE of the nasty dimendsionless constant, is't it?)
Now my 09 CalVin had a minor wobble at about the same speed, which I attributed to the bluff-body windscreen. I adjusted the screen back about half to one degree, and then went to adjust the steering dampener, only to find that my particular bike has an non-adjustable gas dampener; BUT I did discover that the frame-mounting widget for the dampener was loose. Loctited it, problem disappeared. The slightly more-canted windscreen does spill more air over the top lip, but that's nice for Houston summertime. Might change the angle back for winter, then will see if the dampener alone was the fix.
See Danilo's review of the CalVin at http://danilogurovich.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/moto-guzzi-california-vintage-commuting-and-first-impressions/
about steering dampener adjustment:
"The Cal’s narrower than current vogue tires allow for the bike to turn in beautifully. I had to adjust the steering shock for high speed turns, as it tends to have an uncomfortable wobbling frequency around an indicated 80-90 in the big sweepers without it. Once dialed in it all disappears. The adjustments of the suspension are also welcome, giving me a very comfortable ride with dynamic handling capabilities." If your dampener is "loose" (either underadjusted or actually physically loose like mine was) you may get earlier onset, at say 75 mph.
A Hobbs mentioned, Guzziology does recommend considering raising the forks in the triple tree by 1/2" to 1". This apparently makes for slightly easier turn-in and sprightlier handling. See page 20-38, last edition.
Not sure why that would help a 75 mph wobble, however; I'd sooner expect it's the coincident change in the windscreen angle which alters the "vortex shedding" off the screen. Perhaps somebody can explain why the raised fork genometry wold help the wobble (the higher rake geometry has a higher dampening coefficient, maybe? I've got no clue so now I'm making stuff up..
Guzziology says "The bikes that should really benefit [from raising the forks]are all the big twins with 18 inch front wheels as the combination of wheel diameter and severe fork rake [~29 degrees on CalVin] makes for fairly slow handling."
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Mornig All, thanks for your input over night.
The bike misbehaves even without screen, panniers and foot sheilds.
I don't use the standard screen any more, it caused too much buffeting for my liking even with a laminar lip fitted (i used a road king lip, slightly too wide but didn't help). I modified the screen clamps to rake it back, tried turning the clamps upside down to raise the screen - non of it helped for me, still too much buffeting. Had no effect on the handling either. I run no screen or a small flyscreen depending on the season.
I have, in the past, tried sliding the forks through the clamps, you get about half an inch before they touch the handlebars - made very little difference to the ride. To my mind this shortens the wheelbase, therefore making it LESS stable in a staight line.
I'll double double check the head bearings, and may just nip them up to see if it helps - I can always slacken them again if it doesn't.
The standard steering damper is a very cheap item, it is as tight as I can get it - maybe I need to replace it with a better one.
I belong to the Moto Guzzi Club GB, but can reach far more Guzzi owners on this forum (greater input). Good Guzzi dealers are few in the UK and non are local to me, many are just selling the bikes and know very little about them. My mate just bought a new Stelvio locally, it came with the wrong side stand (too short, which they missed in pre delivery inspection) the springs fall off when you flick it down, headlamps dipping right instead of left (they wanted to send for new ones when it only needed adjusting) - he asked how to adjust the rear suspension and they couldn't tell him! They couldn't remove the oil filter at the first service because they didn't have the appropriate tool. These are Guzzi trained!? mechanics!! I've got no confidence in them - I have an engineering background and thirty five years 'in the saddle experience' - I'd rather sort it myself.
Thanks again
Lou
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I don't think 'Marathons' are available in the UK. - I read about them here before fitting the BT45's but my tyre guy couldn't get 'em. I'll look into it again.
Marathons not available in the UK? That tyre guy can't have tried very hard. I've got a Marathon rear and a Lasertech front on my '97 EV and they are shaping up to be a very good combination for handling v mileage. Did you look on the Metzler UK website?
http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/web/catalog/moto/moto_catalogo_schedaDescription.page?uri=/metzeler/en_GB/browser/xml/catalog/moto/Custom_ME_880_Marathon.xml&vehicleType=MOTO&menu_item=/products/catalog/custom (http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/web/catalog/moto/moto_catalogo_schedaDescription.page?uri=/metzeler/en_GB/browser/xml/catalog/moto/Custom_ME_880_Marathon.xml&vehicleType=MOTO&menu_item=/products/catalog/custom)
(http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/en_GB/browser/attachments/images/Catalogue/Custom/ME_880_Marathon_173X236.jpg)
GJ
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Thanks 'GJ',
Yes I looked at so may web sites at the time that I got info' overload!
I remember a tyre that was recommended by the guys on this forum (as were BT45's) but had just become obsolete here in the UK - my tyre guy did try to get one but couldn't (I'm probably mistaken about the name).
I'll give the marathon a go next tyre change.
Ta.
Lou.
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I don't think 'Marathons' are available in the UK. - I read about them here before fitting the BT45's but my tyre guy couldn't get 'em. I'll look into it again.
Marathons not available in the UK? That tyre guy can't have tried very hard. I've got a Marathon rear and a Lasertech front on my '97 EV and they are shaping up to be a very good combination for handling v mileage. Did you look on the Metzler UK website?
http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/web/catalog/moto/moto_catalogo_schedaDescription.page?uri=/metzeler/en_GB/browser/xml/catalog/moto/Custom_ME_880_Marathon.xml&vehicleType=MOTO&menu_item=/products/catalog/custom (http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/web/catalog/moto/moto_catalogo_schedaDescription.page?uri=/metzeler/en_GB/browser/xml/catalog/moto/Custom_ME_880_Marathon.xml&vehicleType=MOTO&menu_item=/products/catalog/custom)
(http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/en_GB/browser/attachments/images/Catalogue/Custom/ME_880_Marathon_173X236.jpg)
GJ
Are you using the 110/80 in the Lasertech? I would assume going to the lower profile tire has some of the handling properties as adjusting the forks 1/2" maybe? If so then that adjustment won't be a cure for the problems here but will make the bike turn in better.
Center out the BT-45 rear was horrible on my bike (wobbled, wouldn't stay on line) but the lower profile front made it turn in better than my 110/90 Marathon (they don't come in the 110/80). I didn't think about adjusting the tubes....
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I'd check that the bike wasn't originally assembled with the axle spacers screwed up or missing, and even though you have dutifully reassembled the bike after every tire change, it is still screwed up. I'm not talking about front to rear wheel alignment, my race bike had 10mm (.4") offset to get the 140 rear to fit in a lemans I swingarm, and it handled fine. I'm talking the wheel actually being able to move side to side. I'd also check the swingarm bearing adjuster set screws, once again not for alignment, but looseness.
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Another thought. 8)
Being a Tonti frame the 7 bolts that hold the battery plate to the frame and gearbox need to be tight otherwise the frame isn't rigid.
Check all other frame bolts too.
Hope its something as simple as this.
Cheers.
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Have you noticed its worse with a pillion or not? Simple road check when it gets a tendance to weave move you wieght forward, sit on the tank if you have too. If the bike "settles" it means the front tyre doesn't have enough wieght on it. Try cranking up the rear preload (i'm assuming it adjustable) to at least what they recommend for two people. Then you can try pulling the forks through the tripple tree's. 5mm is a big adjustment here so just a bit at a time. The other suggestion is make sure all the sapcers for the fron wheel are assembled in thier correct order if the forks are splayed they might not be compressing properly.
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The swing arm looks quite weak compared to the old bike which had 'beefy' round section arms instead of the narrowed flat section of the newer type (non shaft side) - modified to accomodate a wider tyre I believe. Does any one know if they are they interchangable?
Just an FYI.
This is the same flat box section as on my 04 EV. It is solid towing a huge camper and overloaded bike. I think the design is fine.
I have my steering damper backed all the way off. Never liked having it on.
Did you new rear shocks raise the rear any? What length are they?
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My vintage used to weave terrible at anything over 75MPH
Raise the forks about half an inch through the tripple tree that will cure the weaving, it did on mine.
Let me know how you get on
Just to clearify. You mean for the tubes to go down 1/2". Correct?
The fork legs protrude through the top of the triple tree by half an inch
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The Vintage weaves in a straight line above 75mph, and bucks and weaves through bends if pushed even a little.
Have you considered the possibility of rider input causing this?
What does the bike do when you take one hand off the bars?
If taking a hand off the bars causes the weave to cease, it's simply rider input and you're riding with stiff arms.
Loosen your grip and relax your arms and see if that helps...
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What Wayne said about the steering damper. I think too tight is worse than too loose, or completely loose. Whatever is causing it, do one fix at a time and ride to be able to evaluate what the problem was. Good luck,
Don Ivey
'83 1000SP
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My vintage used to weave terrible at anything over 75MPH
Raise the forks about half an inch through the tripple tree that will cure the weaving, it did on mine.
Let me know how you get on
Just to clearify. You mean for the tubes to go down 1/2". Correct?
The fork legs protrude through the top of the triple tree by half an inch
I never understood the steering angle/trail stuff much. But that sounds opposite of what you would want.
Always worth a try though.
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I don't think 'Marathons' are available in the UK. - I read about them here before fitting the BT45's but my tyre guy couldn't get 'em. I'll look into it again.
Marathons not available in the UK? That tyre guy can't have tried very hard. I've got a Marathon rear and a Lasertech front on my '97 EV and they are shaping up to be a very good combination for handling v mileage. Did you look on the Metzler UK website?
http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/web/catalog/moto/moto_catalogo_schedaDescription.page?uri=/metzeler/en_GB/browser/xml/catalog/moto/Custom_ME_880_Marathon.xml&vehicleType=MOTO&menu_item=/products/catalog/custom (http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/web/catalog/moto/moto_catalogo_schedaDescription.page?uri=/metzeler/en_GB/browser/xml/catalog/moto/Custom_ME_880_Marathon.xml&vehicleType=MOTO&menu_item=/products/catalog/custom)
(http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/en_GB/browser/attachments/images/Catalogue/Custom/ME_880_Marathon_173X236.jpg)
GJ
Are you using the 110/80 in the Lasertech?
No, I've stayed with the O/E sizes on my '97 EV - 110/90 Lasertech front and the 140/80 Marathon rear.
Whenever I first get on the bike it does feel as if it wants to drop into corners more readily than the other Guzzis but after a couple of corners that goes away. Might be due to the tyres or big bars giving more rider input?
Straightline and all other aspects of handling are fine and the bike has the big Guzzi barndoor screen.
My steering damper is backed right off.
GJ
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having had a 1999 bassa with BT45's on it and Mikes XS 650 $75.00 shocks and a 2001 cali EV with Metzler Lasertech's works performance shocks. The Bassa would out handle the EV even 2 up. I have since put Michliens on the EV and this past weekend found the head set to be loose, I have not had it out on the road yet .
My past experience is my 2001 EV handles like crap it does not want to go thru a turn. does not realy wobble just requires more body then the Bassa.
Hopefully this weekend i can up date this with a positive report on my 2001 EV
My old '96 California was a great handling bike, perhaps I'm expecting too much of the Vintage - though it's bordering on 'dangerous' if you push it - shouldn't be that bad.
The swing arm looks quite weak compared to the old bike which had 'beefy' round section arms instead of the narrowed flat section of the newer type (non shaft side) - modified to accomodate a wider tyre I believe. Does any one know if they are they interchangable?
Thanks
Lou.
The bike should not weave the way it does above 75mph the problem, I think, is something associated with the weight on the front wheel when you reach 75mph, if you lean forward when the bike starts weaving it reduces the effect. I had thought that a "firmer" set of rear shocks might cure the problem (they would stop the rear end of the bike squatting down and reducing the weight on the front wheel) but you have replaced your standard shocks with Koni??????
I raised the forks through the triple tree in order to alter the bikes centre of gravity and it does raise the speed at which the bike starts to weave to around 90 mph, so I may be on the right track. My old T3 handled much better than the Vintage does, your bike is the only other Vintage, that I know of, that has this problem.
At 75mph why does the front wheel get lighter, it must have something to do with the back end squatting down.
I have also checked the head bearing etc etc
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broken frame or triple clamp?
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having had a 1999 bassa with BT45's on it and Mikes XS 650 $75.00 shocks and a 2001 cali EV with Metzler Lasertech's works performance shocks. The Bassa would out handle the EV even 2 up. I have since put Michliens on the EV and this past weekend found the head set to be loose, I have not had it out on the road yet .
My past experience is my 2001 EV handles like crap it does not want to go thru a turn. does not realy wobble just requires more body then the Bassa.
Hopefully this weekend i can up date this with a positive report on my 2001 EV
My old '96 California was a great handling bike, perhaps I'm expecting too much of the Vintage - though it's bordering on 'dangerous' if you push it - shouldn't be that bad.
The swing arm looks quite weak compared to the old bike which had 'beefy' round section arms instead of the narrowed flat section of the newer type (non shaft side) - modified to accomodate a wider tyre I believe. Does any one know if they are they interchangable?
Thanks
Lou.
The bike should not weave the way it does above 75mph the problem, I think, is something associated with the weight on the front wheel when you reach 75mph, if you lean forward when the bike starts weaving it reduces the effect. I had thought that a "firmer" set of rear shocks might cure the problem (they would stop the rear end of the bike squatting down and reducing the weight on the front wheel) but you have replaced your standard shocks with Koni??????
I raised the forks through the triple tree in order to alter the bikes centre of gravity and it does raise the speed at which the bike starts to weave to around 90 mph, so I may be on the right track. My old T3 handled much better than the Vintage does, your bike is the only other Vintage, that I know of, that has this problem.
At 75mph why does the front wheel get lighter, it must have something to do with the back end squatting down.
I have also checked the head bearing etc etc
Weight shifts off the front and onto the rear due to the fact that the aerodynamic center of pressure is above the ground, and the shift is dramatic because the wheelbase is short.
Your comment about shifting forward reminds me of a high-speed weave my Jackal had years ago, which I found to be caused by me. I was supporting myself against the wind with my arms out straight, and at 80 mph or so the bike would weave, and leaning forward stopped the weave. The problem was completely rider induced, and since learning not to impart any forces onto the bars besides steering inputs It hasn't resurfaced, even with 97,000 mile on the stock shocks.
A slight weave when leaned over at 90+ mph might be normal on a stock Cali though. Mine doesn't like that much either.
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...reminds me of a high-speed weave my Jackal had years ago, which I found to be caused by me. I was supporting myself against the wind with my arms out straight, and at 80 mph or so the bike would weave, and leaning forward stopped the weave.
...The problem was completely rider induced, and since learning not to impart any forces onto the bars besides steering inputs It hasn't resurfaced, even with 97,000 mile on the stock shocks.
My thoughts exactly.
Stiff-arming a bike with wide bars will impart a weave due to the wind hitting the rider's upper body...
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Okay - update, I've spent all evening in the garage and checked;
Engine and frame bolts are tight, battery tray too, looked for breaks/cracks in the frame - all okay.
All spokes 'ringing' nicely.
The wheel spacers look to be in the correct sequence on the spindles, and there is no sideways drift. (Front spacers are mudguard stay brackets on this model so they must be right)
I've nipped the head bearing nut down aprox 60 degrees - it felt okay before, and it still feels okay (so maybe it was a tad loose?) checked all fork bolts as I was doing it.
The Koni shocks are 368mm centres (same as the Sachs they replaced). They have improved things over the stock Sachs. Koni are now marketed as Ikon (anagram) they have progressive springs with three tension settings and four way damping adjustment. They are marketed for this bike and model (part 7610 -1607).
I hope to get out and try it tomorrow if it ever stops raining - and I'll try all the 'rider input' stuff thats been suggested -relax, arms bent, lean forward to stop weave etc.
I haven't moved the forks up yet (one thing at a time (and it didn't help much last time I tried it)).
It's been suggested I nip the swingarm too (though it too feels okay) How do I do this please? mine has a 30mm nut with a hole in the middle and an allen screw inside the hole. I'd guess that I slacken the nut and wind the allen screw in, and nip the nut up again - correct? any tourqe values or is it done by 'feel'?
Many thanks once more for the input.
Lou.
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Oh yeh, I took the steering damper off too to clean up, and I've left it off for now to see the effect.
Lou.
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My vintage used to weave terrible at anything over 75MPH
Raise the forks about half an inch through the tripple tree that will cure the weaving, it did on mine.
Let me know how you get on
Wow, I have to try this. My Vintage wobbles a bit (only over 85 or 90), but I assumed it was because of the larger than stock Rifle windshield. As for the other problems listed by the original poster; I had a bike years ago that had wheel alignment problems (caused by improperly marked chain adjusters). Checking and correcting the alignment with a couple of straightedges fixed the problem for me. I realize that the shaft drive complicates this, but at least you can check it.
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It's been suggested I nip the swingarm too (though it too feels okay) How do I do this please? mine has a 30mm nut with a hole in the middle and an allen screw inside the hole. I'd guess that I slacken the nut and wind the allen screw in, and nip the nut up again - correct? any tourqe values or is it done by 'feel'?
Lou,
The pins need to be home, not tensioned. You are right, the 30mm lock nut is just that and the allen head is 8mm. Make sure the swing arm is in the centre between the frame. screw the pins in until they are just firm against the bearing. Give the swing arm a bit of a sideways tug to feel for any play.
Hope it helps.
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FWIW, I never had a wobble on my 2002 EV, but I was always aware that I could not take my hands off the bars and coast. I'd see guys from time to time ride by hands off like I used to do as a kid on my bike. It bothered me that the bike didn't track straight, even though I never had any intention of riding in the "Hey Mom look at Me!!' hands free position.
It has disappeared and this is what I did.
1)I balanced my throttle bodies and did the TPS. This reduces the vibes and I feel allowed the bike to track better.
2)I switched the bars to Dirt bike bars. This moved my weight forward. It gives, to ME, a much more confident riding postion. I never liked the EV fat bars.
3) I learned to steer with my feet. Thank you Todd Eagan and Rich Rodriguez. So I agree with rider input as a possible issue.
4) Taller seat - more comfortable better riding postion.
I did this all at once so I can't say what did it, but my EV is now a Sport bike. of course with half the power and twice the weight of a current sport bike, but I love it.
I also previously, upgraded the front and rear suspension, opened the air box, punched the mufflers, added H-pipe, PC3, raised the front fork in the triple tree 1/2"( lowered the front end), advanced brake pedal and changes to the Sport wind shield. I endorse all these changes, but none changed the why the bike tracked.
I run Metzler 880 marathons front and back. I have never had an issue with them.
I bring this up because if the bike doesn't track straight that could be a wobble at high speed.
a final thought, If the weight is the issue as suggested above i would suggest you loose the heavy metal hard cases and test ride. That would shift the over mass of the bike forward with out you having to move.
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I have a 98 EV V11 with windshield and ME 880 tires.
I recently road the new Cal Vin at the test ride at the National Rally. My impressions: better power, better shifting, less leg room, wider bars (too wide), and not quite as stable handling. I didn't check the tires.
also regarding tires. I recently replaced the tires with new 880s. The rear first, didn't seem to effect the handling. Then did the front, it must've have taken 200 miles before it felt right. Seemed to run wide at every turn (totally the opposite of all profile radials I've ridden). After they wore in, drove fine. Must explain why they get such good mileage.
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I'm none too happy with my 93Cali3 for handling either. I've rebuilt the internal fork dampeners twice, fitted Ikon shocks, lowered the front end by dropping the forks in the triple tree, fitted new wheel bearings front and back, including having the hub on the back machined and sleeved with steel to repair the bearing housing, thrown away the steering damper, changed the bars to almost straight ones, I run standard Metzler Lasertechs front and back and so on. However I am just about to fit progressive fork springs and I think that could change everything. All the other things made a slight improvement but with soft springs I don't think it could ever work properly. I believe these springs were bad from day 1 according to many stories I've heard.
Just wondering if that could be an issue with the new bikes.
Hope you find the problem.
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Just throwing this out there, as all are more knowledgeable. Is there a possibility of a rear shock being defective? Don't know if there adjustable on the Cal Vin,
H
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OK, anyone have a Vintage that doesn't handle like a dog?
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I have a 98 EV V11 with windshield and ME 880 tires.
Must explain why the get such good mileage.
I found a slice across the thread of my front ME880 last weekend. Prying around it with a screwdriver I saw it hit the cord and the tire showed signs of cracking around the threads..... my first thought was damm..... there's plenty of thread left on it to write this one off so soon. I looked up when I put it on...... 6 years and 16,000 miles ago. :o
The two sets of OEM ME55's(?) lasted me 6,000 & 8,000 miles for comparison.
JU
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My CalVin handles quite well...despite running the shocks with only a little preload. Its intuitive and quick steering, without being twitchy. I'm shocked that something this big handles so well.
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lowered the front end by dropping the forks in the triple tree,
Isn't this going to make the steering more twitchy by reducing the trail and exaggerate a handling problem?
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lowered the front end by dropping the forks in the triple tree,
Isn't this going to make the steering more twitchy by reducing the trail and exaggerate a handling problem?
Hasn't everyone been suggesting this [whether you call it raising or lowering the forks, it is in fact lowering the front end] and doesn't Guzziology also endorse this, to shorten the wheelbase slightly which quickens up the steering?
And no Wayne, it actually helps the handling and feel but as I said, with poor original springs nothing will make enough difference. Are the new Calvins fitted with good quality progressive springs or not?
Why do you always pick on me Earwig?
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My CalVin handles quite well...despite running the shocks with only a little preload. Its intuitive and quick steering, without being twitchy. I'm shocked that something this big handles so well.
+1
Although it could probably tolerate raising the forks a little bit, if only for slightly easier turn-in at slower speeds.
Above ~30 mph it practically corners by itself.
2-up it's excellent.
Since I am relatively light, I backed off the forks several clicks (both compression and rebound); afterwards, accidentally went over a speed bump way too fast, and just launched, completely off the ground (must have looked hilarious- hey, that funny looking cop just launched off that speed bump!) but landed smooth as a baby's butt. LOVE the Marzocchi.
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I'm none too happy with my 93Cali3 for handling either.
I've just picked up a 88 Cali III. I've only done 2,200 km on it in the last 3 weeks but I've got to say it has impeccable manners.
I'll even go so far to say that due to its steering geometry, 40mm forks and extra weight that I would be faster on it than my MK III Lemans in bumpy road conditions through moderate corners.
I've had it up to 162kmh (100mph) and not a twitch but I don't ride like that normally. In the curves it is planted and able to roll over bumps and undulations that would unsettle the much lighter Lemans and much, much lighter Monza.
Its a heavy lump of lard though. ::) Over 60kg heavier then the Lemans and 110kg heavier than the Monza. 110kg!!? :o I've never dated a pillion that heavy. :D
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My vintage used to weave terrible at anything over 75MPH
Raise the forks about half an inch through the triple tree that will cure the weaving, it did on mine.
Let me know how you get on
Wow, I have to try this. My Vintage wobbles a bit (only over 85 or 90), but I assumed it was because of the larger than stock Rifle windshield. As for the other problems listed by the original poster; I had a bike years ago that had wheel alignment problems (caused by improperly marked chain adjusters). Checking and correcting the alignment with a couple of straightedges fixed the problem for me. I realize that the shaft drive complicates this, but at least you can check it.
Sheepdog
My Vintage also has the larger Rifle screen, peoples comments bear out my own thoughts:
At speeds above 75mph the wind acts on the riders body, due to the riding postion, lifting the front end. I have a long body and am fairly "well built" there is a lot of my body for the wind to act upon, despite the screen. When you think of it there must be a lot of leverage lifting the front end from the wind and the riding stance.
Raising the forks does help.
I wonder if attaching some sort of weight to the front forks (purely to prove the point) would raise the speed at which the weaving occurs, if it does than we would know we were on the right track.
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I can not help on the Vintage, but used to have quite bad wobbling problems with my former 2002 EV, to the point of almost being killed at one time. (Terrible speed wobble on the autobahn).
It scared the sh….out of me, so I wanted it to happen NEVER again !
I had several things done, so I do not know what in fact solved the problem (and it WAS solved)
Tyre change (the Michelin Mac 50 replaced with Battlax 45)
Steering head bearings greased
Front wheel bearings replaced
Swing arm bearing greased
Stock steering dampner replaced by hydraulic one (not that I ever needed it after all the other changes)
Rear Sachs shocks went for Fournales air shocks.
After all that, I had a completely different bike. I still think tyres and lack of grease on the bearings were the original problem. Of course, the new shocks improved handling drastically.
But it seems you had all that done, so perhaps something is wrong with your bike (framewise)?
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FWIW, I never had a wobble on my 2002 EV, but I was always aware that I could not take my hands off the bars and coast. I'd see guys from time to time ride by hands off like I used to do as a kid on my bike. It bothered me that the bike didn't track straight, even though I never had any intention of riding in the "Hey Mom look at Me!!' hands free position.
It has disappeared and this is what I did.
1)I balanced my throttle bodies and did the TPS. This reduces the vibes and I feel allowed the bike to track better.
2)I switched the bars to Dirt bike bars. This moved my weight forward. It gives, to ME, a much more confident riding postion. I never liked the EV fat bars.
3) I learned to steer with my feet. Thank you Todd Eagan and Rich Rodriguez. So I agree with rider input as a possible issue.
4) Taller seat - more comfortable better riding postion.
I did this all at once so I can't say what did it, but my EV is now a Sport bike. of course with half the power and twice the weight of a current sport bike, but I love it.
I also previously, upgraded the front and rear suspension, opened the air box, punched the mufflers, added H-pipe, PC3, raised the front fork in the triple tree 1/2"( lowered the front end), advanced brake pedal and changes to the Sport wind shield. I endorse all these changes, but none changed the why the bike tracked.
I run Metzler 880 marathons front and back. I have never had an issue with them.
I bring this up because if the bike doesn't track straight that could be a wobble at high speed.
a final thought, If the weight is the issue as suggested above i would suggest you loose the heavy metal hard cases and test ride. That would shift the over mass of the bike forward with out you having to move.
Your EV sounds like a copy of mine or mine is a copy of yours. It just made a good bike better.
Dean
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Mine handles great. I don't usually ride over 70mph, and I'm not rough on it, but it handles with ease an no wobbles at all. I adjusted the steering damper slightly, and adjusted the compression and rebound slightly on the front, but the rear shock adjustments are exactly as I received the bike brand new. This entire issue seems very weird to me. Has the owner ever tried a different Vintage? I'm still on the original Lasertechs (only at about 2800 miles) and have made no modifications except for addition of a Givi top case.
Also, I don't think anyone discussed rider size or weight, or how loaded down the bike is. Just wondering if that could be an issue, but probably is not.
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lowered the front end by dropping the forks in the triple tree,
Isn't this going to make the steering more twitchy by reducing the trail and exaggerate a handling problem?
Hasn't everyone been suggesting this [whether you call it raising or lowering the forks, it is in fact lowering the front end] and doesn't Guzziology also endorse this, to shorten the wheelbase slightly which quickens up the steering?
And no Wayne, it actually helps the handling and feel but as I said, with poor original springs nothing will make enough difference. Are the new Calvins fitted with good quality progressive springs or not?
Why do you always pick on me Earwig?
I wasn't picking on you, I was asking a question. :P
Thanks for the answer.
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lowered the front end by dropping the forks in the triple tree,
Isn't this going to make the steering more twitchy by reducing the trail and exaggerate a handling problem?
Hasn't everyone been suggesting this [whether you call it raising or lowering the forks, it is in fact lowering the front end] and doesn't Guzziology also endorse this, to shorten the wheelbase slightly which quickens up the steering?
And no Wayne, it actually helps the handling and feel but as I said, with poor original springs nothing will make enough difference. Are the new Calvins fitted with good quality progressive springs or not?
Why do you always pick on me Earwig?
I wasn't picking on you, I was asking a question. :P
Thanks for the answer.
Allright Wayne, sorry for getting stroppy. And yes lowering the front end is generally a good thing. I'll let you know what new springs do for me. The quickening of steering has been very nice and the forks are only dropped about 12mm. I think the setup is quite crucial and I wonder if there ought to be a weight/drop rate scale worked out.
I know Greg Field has a weight versus fork deflection formula pretty well worked out. Have you got that handy there Greg? You know the one with the percentage of deflection versus the unweighted setting etc.???
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I'm none too happy with my 93Cali3 for handling either.
<snip>
Its a heavy lump of lard though. ::) Over 60kg heavier then the Lemans and 110kg heavier than the Monza. 110kg!!? :o I've never dated a pillion that heavy. :D
LOL Excellent standard for The Pillion (60 kg). I must weigh mine to see if she makes the cut
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Mine handles great. I don't usually ride over 70mph, and I'm not rough on it, but it handles with ease an no wobbles at all. I adjusted the steering damper slightly, and adjusted the compression and rebound slightly on the front, but the rear shock adjustments are exactly as I received the bike brand new. This entire issue seems very weird to me. Has the owner ever tried a different Vintage? I'm still on the original Lasertechs (only at about 2800 miles) and have made no modifications except for addition of a Givi top case.
Also, I don't think anyone discussed rider size or weight, or how loaded down the bike is. Just wondering if that could be an issue, but probably is not.
About me - I'm not a racer by any means but I do like to make progress - the bike handles fine if I'm bimbling along - my old Cali' handled fine if I gave it some stick too - the Vintage doesn't (or didn't, read on). I haven't ridden another 'newer' Cali of any type. I'm 5'10", and 11 stone (long and thin), and the bike misbehaves whether naked or loaded.
Update on my handling probs.
Thanks for your input everybody - I have made progress!!
It's very windy here today, but after yesterdays adjustments and checks, and my 'rider input' (as suggested by you all - not pulling on the bars etc) the bike did run better today. It remained pretty steady at 90 (though buffeted by sidewind) it felt safe, not as if it was about to break into a tankslapper - began to twitch a little over 90, which is well illeagal anyway, so I can live with that!
Twisties were better too, perhaps more room for improvement by dropping the yokes down the forks (my next adjustment), which I'll follow with more suspension tweaking and new tyres (eventually).
What's changed?
Nipped the steering head bearings down.
Removed steering damper.
Softened rear shock damping (spring left on softest cos I'm light)
Fork rebound and compression set to middle for each - as a datum for further trials.
I removed the panniers, and it has no screen on at the moment - but if I can get it to run 'naked' I'll be happy and accept that adding extras will have an effect on the handling. I'd like to try a higher seat too, but it'll have to wait until funds allow!
Not as good as my old Cali' yet but it's definately better - never felt dangerous today, and I pushed it fairly hard once the roads dried out.
So THANKS to all for the input. I'll keep ya posted as to further developments (if your not 'bored shi*less' with this thread already!)
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No truly Lou, I'm interested to learn how you fix it. Did you tighten your snuts under the battery by the way?
Definitely keep us posted.
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I've got 13.5K on my stock trim 09 CalVin. Solo, 5'10", 180#, I would experience a nasty weave, would occasionly appear at 80, more often than not at 90. Two up, seemed more contained. My son, 5'6", 140# would get the weave anything above 70, described as even nastier than anything i experienced. Tightening steering head nut eliminated the weave.
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My '09 Calvin will also start weaving or wobbling at 70 or 75 on occasion. I figured it was due in part to the large after market windshield, narrow front tire and the wicked winds we have here. It can be really unnerving. I've owned numerous makes of bikes and have never experienced this to this extent. I have also gotten very cautious taking turns, because it has felt like the rear tire was slipping or not holding as well as it should.
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Pay close attention to your steering damper. At a rally, a friend complained about his Cali's handling. I took it for a ride to compare it to mine and at speed it was downright scary. He had the damper tightened thinking it should help. I looked close and found the pivots in the damper had some play and the frame bracket under the tank was loose. I backed the damper off so it was not active and the problem went away. With the bracket being loose and the play int the damper bushings, the tighter you made the damper the worse it was.
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Mine (09) buffeted at the same speeds, various iterations of windshield placement, LamLip, Saeng, etc.... The only thing that moderated it was tightening the steering damper. I finally bought the H&H fairing and 90mph became a regular for me. I wish I had an answer for you but it looks like you covered all my issues, including tire change/air pressure.
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I thought I was told by Mike (MPH Cycles) that the steering damper on my 09 Calvin was not adjustable. Did I misunderstand?
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OK, anyone have a Vintage that doesn't handle like a dog?
Mine doesn't handle like a dog at all. And this even with the largest Rifle screen as well. Some of my sport bikes friends have followed me through the twisties and were amazed as how fast and steady it is.
Part of this may be that Jim at Rose Farm delivered my bike and went through it the right way and actually checked it and road tested before delivery. Good setup from a Guzzi expert will make all the difference, IMHO. Dave
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Replace everything you removed EXCEPT THE STEERING DAMPER...then go buy a new/better damper and live happily ever after.
Harry
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OK, anyone have a Vintage that doesn't handle like a dog?
Karl Wurth has well over 100,000 miles on his Vintage and he hasn't complained about the handling. He put on the Hannigan faring from the git go.
Tex
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My '09 is far from being a "dog".
More like a "Raped Spotted Snow Ape" - Steady as a rock.
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My CalVin handles quite well...despite running the shocks with only a little preload. Its intuitive and quick steering, without being twitchy. I'm shocked that something this big handles so well.
+ Me too...........no complaints
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Mine handles like a champ. Love it
Anyone remember who had the stock CALVIN exhaust mufflers for sale ?
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put me on the list my 09 is no dog,,,,,I think it owns mountain roads myself,,,I just got off the old connie,,1000 concours,,,I did not have a problem with that either,,,tires ,,bearings,,listen to the pros,,it's no dog,,mine has a high speed wooble around 90 in dirty air that I don't like,,but I blame the fork mounted windshield,,,Dan
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does this weaving problem show up only after a 2-3 visit to the local pub? ;D
Seriously...I have two 2001 californias: a special, and an EV. When I bought the ev, it handled like crap. I felt sure it was some kind of bent frame problem or handlebar problem or something! The previous owner had put a non-stock tire on the back (can't remember the brand/model). When that tire wore out, I put the same tire I had on my stock ev (the stock tire), and bingo, the problem went away. I find that the Californias handle just fine with stock tires.
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raised the forks....or lowered the forks....3/4" +/- is all we could get above the top triple tree before hitting the handle bar
in order to get me closer to flat footing ...still no flat footing for me
difference in handling has not been noticed by me
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raised the forks....or lowered the forks....3/4" +/- is all we could get above the top triple tree before hitting the handle bar
in order to get me closer to flat footing ...still no flat footing for me
difference in handling has not been noticed by me
That is something I have never had to deal with. ;) Guess being 6'7" is the reason.
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raised the forks....or lowered the forks....3/4" +/- is all we could get above the top triple tree before hitting the handle bar
in order to get me closer to flat footing ...still no flat footing for me
difference in handling has not been noticed by me
That is something I have never had to deal with. ;) Guess being 6'7" is the reason.
You bragging or complaining there Goose? ;D
Goose
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/73/Shrekcharacter.jpg/220px-Shrekcharacter.jpg)
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my cal vin handles beautifully since it got a swannee/H&H fairing.
Out in Germany I cruised at 170kmh+ all day long (100mph) and it felt like it was on rails, not to mention the wind protection!
And yes, a 60kg pillion is perfect.
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Hallo from Warsaw, Poland (European Union) !
I think I have the same problems with my vintage. When I try go up 70-80 mph (130-140km/h) weaving of bike is horrible. If remove windsheld - it starts about 90 mph. Its not "shimmy" ((5-10 kHz). It's "weaving"(app. 1 Hz= 1/second).
Bike: California Vintage 90 Anniversary (white-brown colour, limited ed.). I'm first owner. It has 2000 km only. Warrianty still exist.
I check all: tyres, pressure, wheels, bearing of head, bearings of wheels...
And...at the end...
...I found strange "clearens" of rear wheel bearings (2 ones). It was not regular bearings (without any space) but bearings C3-specification - bearings like that constructors use inside engine, where temperature of work is much, much higher, than into rear wheel. "Axial clearance" of those bearing is about 0,5 mm. "Axial clearance" measured on "top" of tyre - about 5 mm (!!!). I'm not sure why somebody used C3-model there ? Maybe it's mistake of MG Company?
I ask mechanics in MG authorised service in Warsaw, but they can not answer if those part was used corectly.
So... I decided " I do it myself":
I removed C3-bearings and used regular ones. And... then winter and a lot of comes to Poland (week ago) and I can not chec if I'm right...
PS sorry, my English is still "under construction" :)
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I had no trouble understanding your well written treatise . Keep us updated .
Dusty
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
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Thanks for reviving this topic, doktor. It has given me food for thought regarding my bike's handling, itself an "under construction" project ;D ;-T
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Please don't get me wrong. I don't expect Cali ever to be "Master of Stability" in any speed... It is no Hayabusa :) But... With
my old 95' Cali I had no any problem with steering, no any weaving - with, or without, big windsheld (almost as big as "Germania" model).
May any Vintage User to check wich model of bearings (C3 or regular) are used in their bike (may be when somebody will change rear tyre).
By the way. Last 2 years, after Euro 2012 Soccer Campionship we have, in Poland, fiew new highways (really !!!). It is not Germany, yet, but highway-building is going in right direction. Max speed on highway is 140 km/h but police start try stop the drivers over 160 km/h. So, almost anybody drive highway almost 160. Truck speed: 100 - 110 km/h. To ride safetly rider should keep between 110 to 160 on our highway. It is not so easy with my new Vintage because of those shitty weaving :(
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Is it OK if we call you Dok ? A well set up Cali should handle and steer well , don't sell it short . Hmm , dawns on me one of my favorite MC people is Taddy Blazuziak (sp) , met him at an Endurocross event , Poland can be quite proud of him , great racer and a nice young man , if a bit crazy .
Dusty
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
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Of course, please call me Doc or Wlodek, Vlad, :)
..."You can trust me - I am Doctor !" :)
I agree, Taddy Blazusiak is one of the best in Polish and Europe Motocross and Enduro history. Nice person, too.
I don't wanna to sell Cal - Vin, yet. I'm brave and like mechanical challenges ! (... and 1400 models are for pussyes :) ...no, no, no . It's joke, of course :) But, to say true, 1100 models are 80 kg lighter and only 25 HP weaker. 1100 Cali is "living youngtimer", in 2012 still be produced. I have faster bike (Haya), too, but really like ride Cali :)
It is not so good situation when company did not check bike stability before they sell it. It is dangerous for user. I remember times before 1990, when, if you buy new bike from East Europe, you buy completly uncheck machine. Of course russian URAL motobikes were much, much worse - was build like "kit bikes". If You buy anyone You must immidietly rebuilt it because of "life hazard" :).
PS While ago people from MG Aut. Service from Warsaw call me and they said, they wanna to send these C3 bearing with large clearance to main factory, to Mandello,Italy, because of possibility of damage to production of these bearing. Next week we will see...
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Dok , you are going to be a welcome addition to WG , a sense of humor to go with intelligence .
Yep , have some experience with older MZs , cool but quirky , and of course CZs were almost common in the US at one time , on an MX starting grid in 69 half the bikes would be Czeds .
Dusty
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Dusty,
A bit off topic, but quite a battle in AMA Endurocross this past year between Taddy and Mike Brown. Have to admit I was pulling for Brown. He's an old dog. ;D Good stuff!
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Posted this before but here it goes:
2011 California Black Eagle 1100 did the same thing with both stock Metzlers and Avon Road Riders. Tried 3 or 4 different windscreens.
The Fix: Got rid of the cruiser handle bars & put on some DanMoto adjustable clip ons, raised the forks up about 1-1/2", installed a small windscreen and played with it until I got it right.
The weave may be rider induced to some degree. What I found out was that the wind would come around the screen and "play" off my shoulders sometimes my helmet vibrated like a two stroke.
One day I took the windscreen off & when the weave started I put my hands down on the center of those cruiser bars by the clamps and leaned into the wind like I did on the old 850T and the weave stopped. I started playing with lower & narrower bars but did not like any of them so I went with the adjustable clip-ons mounted above the top triple tree. I can ride in an upright cruiser position or lean forward and put my feet on the back pegs. have ridden 500 mile days with no problems. See pic below:
(http://s5.postimg.org/j80dvhavb/IMG_0412.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/63utisitf/full/)
screen shot windows (http://postimage.org/app.php)
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Had the metzer laser tec tyres tyre to start with changed then for B45s and doesn't track or weave but the other thing is tyre pressure to low and they track. I usually ride two up and don't have a problem on our roads but one thing to look at is the load on each wheel like race bikes. Get the scales out and have a piece of wood the same size as the bathroom scales. Weigh the front wheel weight and then the rear. too much weight to the rear could cause problems. But the other thing every change you made did you do one thing at a time and see if it made a differance
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Bias ply tires will flex in the sidewalls even if you're running them at the oem air pressures. Better to run them near the max air pressure on the sidewalls. A lot of times 40 lb. will be better than 36. ;-T
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Handling problems of this type can usually be attributed to a combination of improper shock setting for the riders weight and spoke wheels not being correctly adjusted. Raising the shocks will bring the fender to close to the triple tree. You should check the clearance to be sure you don't dent that pretty fender.
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Bias ply tires will flex in the sidewalls even if you're running them at the oem air pressures. Better to run them near the max air pressure on the sidewalls. A lot of times 40 lb. will be better than 36. ;-T
My rear is a BT45 radial and since reading this resurrected topic, I have inflated it to 45 psi from 38, with no ill effects. Trouble is, roadworks after the bad rain we had last year have seen road maintainence crews fix the corrugations in my "test-bend" so the usual wobble is not going to happen. Looking for a new test track ;D
But I take your point about the tyres/crossplies. My bike has always had the radials and has always had the shakes when heeled over in fast bends. Ikon suggested stiffer fork springs and I was going to do it when the front tyre (not a radial) wore out. Instead, I will put a cross ply on the back when the time comes.
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Okay....you have a radial tire on the rear and a bias-ply on the front of Cali with wire wheels?
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Okay....you have a radial tire on the rear and a bias-ply on the front of Cali with wire wheels?
Avon Roadrunner on the front now . Two sidewall plies. Four tread plies. Previously BT45. Two wire wheels. BT45R on rear.
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Replace that radial on the rear with a bias-ply.
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Replace that radial on the rear with a bias-ply.
Right ;-T
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I use BT45s on my Vintage; and I like them. However, they did require a bit of a break-in before they felt their best. I did inadvertantly bend the flange of my front rim using that long tire lever that came with my Harbor Freight tire changer. This caused a runout problem with the rim that led to oscillations. It required a trip to Woody's Wheel Works in Denver to get corrected. Also, my bike likes lots of preload and rebound damping in the rear to handle its best. Another thing that has improved both the ergos and the weight distribution of my machine is a set of Stone Handlebars. They are narrower and have less pullback; placing more of my bodyweight toward the front wheel. Finally, adding Vetter Pop-Vents to my windshield reduced buffeting substantially. This not only makes the bike more comfortable, but reduces unwanted forces on the forks and the operator...
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c229/JamesBagley/1405f0f8.jpg)
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Right ;-T
The consensus with the Cali Tonti frames is that radial motorcycles aren't a good match.
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My rear is a BT45 radial and since reading this resurrected topic, I have inflated it to 45 psi from 38, with no ill effects. Trouble is, roadworks after the bad rain we had last year have seen road maintainence crews fix the corrugations in my "test-bend" so the usual wobble is not going to happen. Looking for a new test track ;D
But I take your point about the tyres/crossplies. My bike has always had the radials and has always had the shakes when heeled over in fast bends. Ikon suggested stiffer fork springs and I was going to do it when the front tyre (not a radial) wore out. Instead, I will put a cross ply on the back when the time comes.
Before I bought the Breva 750 I test rode one fitted with a BT45 on the front. Almost put me off buying the Bike. However, because it was the most "right" bike I have I ever ridden I took the plunge. The one we got was fitted with the Pirelli Sport Demon. When in for a warranty claim I was given the Breva with the BT45 again, and it was absolute cr*p. It felt 'orrible. I did not know where the front end was. I will NEVER buy a BT45, at least for the front.
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"I've nipped the head bearing nut down aprox 60 degrees - it felt okay before, and it still feels okay (so maybe it was a tad loose?) checked all fork bolts as I was doing it."
Tad loose could easily cause a wobble but generally at lower speeds?
Worn centering of the head bearings can cause severe weaving but as the bike has only done 7000 miles this should not be an issue but as you say it is straight line I would have my suspicions as to whether the bearings had sufficient grease from new?
Don't know how the swing arm bearings are adjusted on the Cali EV but on 70/80's Guzzis you have a locknut and adjuster each side where the swing arm joins the frame.
Once the locknuts are removed the adjuster screws have to be set exactly the same amount out from the bearings. I use a metric vernier calliper. This is most important.
Is there any play when you you try to push or pull the rear end in the frame?
Otherwise I would agree with Rocker about wind buffeting putting bad pressure on the bars.
:)
Rob
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Make sure the spokes are tight too.
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Before I bought the Breva 750 I test rode one fitted with a BT45 on the front. Almost put me off buying the Bike. However, because it was the most "right" bike I have I ever ridden I took the plunge. The one we got was fitted with the Pirelli Sport Demon. When in for a warranty claim I was given the Breva with the BT45 again, and it was absolute cr*p. It felt 'orrible. I did not know where the front end was. I will NEVER buy a BT45, at least for the front.
:+1 to the Pirelli Sport Demon tires. After changing out the OEM Metzlers that came with my CalVin to the Pirelli's the bike's handling was transformed. I'm now a Sport Demon convert (when it comes to the Cal).
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What air pressures are you running?
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Make sure the spokes are tight too.
That's a nice heads-up. I haven't even once considered checking my spokes... Seems like a good time to get after it since it's down with it's third toasted battery in 12,000 miles. Now, where's that tuning fork? :BEER:
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stmike #104
Tom #103, 100
Muzz #101
Thankyou gentlemen ;D ;-T Boy there's some good stuff on here today ;D
Isn't it amazing; you go for years, knowing there is something wrong and all of a sudden it turns out to be something that someone did way back in the early days that you/I had completely forgotten and taken as Gospel anyway.
The bloke who replace my original tyres reckoned that BT45s were better than anything else in the wet and I used to go to him later with the handling problems too but he did not twig. He was an enthusiast too.
If only i had known about this forum :'(
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On my T3, I had to replace 3 broken spokes. On my Jackal, 2 spokes. The Jackal repair was on the rear and the T3 was the front. Either, I suspect gave me some weird handling.
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I just noticed that the original poster, Lou Snuts, hasn't posted in this thread since the end of July, 2009. Did he ever get the handling the way he wanted it? His last post ended with "So THANKS to all for the input. I'll keep ya posted as to further developments (if your not 'bored shi*less' with this thread already!)".
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That's a nice heads-up. I haven't even once considered checking my spokes... Seems like a good time to get after it since it's down with it's third toasted battery in 12,000 miles. Now, where's that tuning fork? :BEER:
Cruzzi check mine before MOT as this in the UK can cause failure. Ding'em with a small spanner and if the tone is similar you are Okay.
:)
Rob
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What air pressures are you running?
I generally run 34F 36R, but only check them every couple of weeks or so.
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My rear is a BT45 radial and since reading this resurrected topic, I have inflated it to 45 psi from 38, with no ill effects. Trouble is, roadworks after the bad rain we had last year have seen road maintainence crews fix the corrugations in my "test-bend" so the usual wobble is not going to happen. Looking for a new test track ;D
But I take your point about the tyres/crossplies. My bike has always had the radials and has always had the shakes when heeled over in fast bends. Ikon suggested stiffer fork springs and I was going to do it when the front tyre (not a radial) wore out. Instead, I will put a cross ply on the back when the time comes.
:winer
I belive the BT45 is not radial tyre..
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:winer
I belive the BT45 is not radial tyre..
On the wall of the tyre it says, "Battlax BT45R". I took it that the R stood for radial. Am I wrong? :)
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I believe BT-45R is a rear tire and BT-45F is a front tire. Bridgestone's site says BT-45s are bias ply tires. Mine say "Spitfire 11F" and "Spitfire 11R" on the front and rear tires, respectively.
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I believe BT-45R is a rear tire and BT-45F is a front tire. Bridgestone's site says BT-45s are bias ply tires. Mine say "Spitfire 11F" and "Spitfire 11R" on the front and rear tires, respectively.
Thanks Triple Jim
So I still have a handling problem. Heavier fork springs might be in order after all.
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:winer
I belive the BT45 is not radial tyre..
Thanks for pointing that out mate ;D
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My jackal did that once. It was dry steering bearings.
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My jackal did that once. It was dry steering bearings.
Are You writing about "weaving" ?
PS: When I take out the wheel bearings, wheel axles front and rear were completely dry. Grease was not also on the lifter at the differential. Perhaps there are not lubricated bearings at steering head??? They did not use grease in Moto Guzzi Manufacture, now ??? - I took COMPLETLY NEW 1100 Cali from authorised Guzzi Dealer :( ... and was not so chip :(
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PS: When I take out the wheel bearings, wheel axles front and rear were completely dry.
I'm not sure what you mean. Grease should be in the bearings, not on the axles.
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Dok,
The maker, known on this forum as Luigi, is notorious for under lubrication. This applies to the splines inside the bevel box as well as the drive shaft splines, in addition to the sites you mention.
Unsure what is meant by, "the lifter at the differential". I am pretty much a novice so others might be able to help.
As for the dealer, mine was/is notorious too. Nothing new there. Reminds of a saying seen somewhere on this forum, "Moto Guzzi...making mechanics out of riders since 1922". Sorry for the inaccurate quote but it conveys an accurate summary of the maker's attitude to its product IMO. Ditto for my dealer. A potentially great motorcycle spoiled by inattention to detail.
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I'm not sure what you mean. Grease should be in the bearings, not on the axles.
Of course, grease should be into the bearings. But, I think, on the axles and on drive shaft splines, should to be,too - to protect agains corrosion (Poland, and Nord Italy it's not Sunny California, climate is much like in England). Such neglect reflect poorly Manufacturer, I think.
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Dok,
The maker, known on this forum as Luigi, is notorious for under lubrication. This applies to the splines inside the bevel box as well as the drive shaft splines, in addition to the sites you mention.
Unsure what is meant by, "the lifter at the differential". I am pretty much a novice so others might be able to help.
As for the dealer, mine was/is notorious too. Nothing new there. Reminds of a saying seen somewhere on this forum, "Moto Guzzi...making mechanics out of riders since 1922". Sorry for the inaccurate quote but it conveys an accurate summary of the maker's attitude to its product IMO. Ditto for my dealer. A potentially great motorcycle spoiled by inattention to detail.
Sorry, Sorry! My mistake. I think "the lifter at the differential" should be "the drive shaft splines", of course. And I'm fully agree "A potentially great motorcycle spoiled by inattention to detail."
I still wait for better weather to do test ride. Tonight was -9 Celsius in Warsaw (16 Fahrenheit). Today is -4C (25F)...and some snow.
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I don't remember that lovely weather in february like last fiew days in Poland. Temp. app.10 C, no snow at all.
Yesterday I ride on the highway from Warsaw to Poznan (about 20 miles) at speeds to 190 km / h. Configuration: New bearings at rear wheel. Max inclined original windsheld and founded lightbar; without knees covers and without bags (trunks).
Conclusions:
1 Very, very subtle "snake" I caught only up to 180 km / h, without fear of loss of control over the motobike. I could even accelerate.
2 Even so inclined, original windsheld, generates a powerful turbulence. Riding at speeds like 180 - 190 km/h, possible, but only position is: maximal close helmet and chest to the handlebar. "Sitting on fuel tank". I want to lean a little this oryginal windsheld by enlarge the holes in the rack, at the future. I'm sure I should to mount something like "Vetter Pop-Vents" like Sheepdog did before. (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=27946.msg1040481#msg1040481)
3 Today I'm on duty in Hiperbaric Chamber, so I have not had the opportunity to test the configuration with the other windshelds, yet: 1. "My idea" cuted transparent part of windsheld from broken EV and 2. really large "Grose Germania windsheld".
I hope weather in Poland will be still "Ride - able" (sunny, no snow :) Greetings from Warsaw !
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1 Very, very subtle "snake"
I realize you have been chasing this problem, but that is "normally" steering head bearings that are just slightly too tight..
Edit:
Oh, forgot.. a steering damper with too much stiction will do it, too..
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"I realize you have been chasing this problem, but that is "normally" steering head bearings that are just slightly too tight..
Edit:
Oh, forgot.. a steering damper with too much stiction will do it, too.."
I check head before... I take off damper.
If You are talking about low speed (5- 20 km/h), I'm 100% agree. In the time of "slow ride comtetition" on motorcycle rally - this is the key :)
But my problem starts up to 160 - 180 km/h, near maximum speed (on highway, good asphalt - surface conditions).
Another test drive:
Initial assumptions:
1. Yesterday I wear all oryginal equipment on bike. I set up the damping and rebound of shock absorbers near the maximum (only 5 clicks down from max) and rear spring preload on the fourth (of five).
2. I took my girlfriend named Renata ("big blond one", near 65 kg weight) for a ride.
Results:
1. I checked the motorcycle at 190 km / h, many, many times. Day was really beautiful. No any problems with steering, snacking, shacking, etc. It was almost as stable, as Hayabusa. Even as I wanted to initiate sway motorcycle was still stable. Of course, for a maximum bent windsheld - annoying turbulence.
2. Then I left my fiancee at our home and went for a ride alone. At maximum speed gave to introduce the "something resembling a small shimmy" High frequency, but, fortunately, with a low amplitude.
Conclusion:
1. Replacing the bearings in the rear wheel was necessary and resulted in an improvement conduct .
2. In old books is written " The center of gravity is essential for the stability of the motorcycle".
If you charge the rear ( passenger weight ) - geometry varies little from "sport " to " chopper - like " . Increasing the angle of the steering head has a large stabilizing effect.
3. Oryginal windsheld is really shity, so I will experimented with it. May be solution will be cutted "Germania windsheld" ?
Yesterday I felt like a test pilot .
Bride gets a reward new helmet - Shark
(http://10013504_705671722810777_460208363_n.jpg)
My new bike, 90 Anniversary Cali, with NON-ORYGINAL windsheld (cutted from EV model)
(http://1235901_10202211906566105_1099109097_n.jpg)
My lovely Old Yellow Cali 1100 IE with ugly, but perfect windsheld. Last autumn I sell it to my friend. He is a husband of my ex-girlfriend. All stay in family :)
(http://1157719_10202031736301961_1815616945_n.jpg)
I hope all images will be in post...
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"1. Replacing the bearings in the rear wheel was necessary and resulted in an improvement conduct ."
Dok, this could easily cause the problem you describe.
Also slop or any movement in swing arm bearing?
I've known very worn Koni Dial-a-ride shock absorbers to create a nasty bounce at speed but this sounds different from what you are saying?
:)
Rob
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TL/DR all of the above... but do your test runs wearing different jackets. Some get air inside and without the "out" vent it will shake your body just a little, which introduces movement to shoulders/hands and you are all over the place.
My friend didnt believe me... finally after 3+ years of his bike handling like a dog he got himself a new jacket and the bike handles like its on rails... :)
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Check the runout on your wheels. Hamfisted tire installers can easily bend the wheel's flange, causing oscillations at various speeds. Even a little bulge will make a difference...
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Wondering if there was ever a fix found....
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Stay away from 110/80 fronts. Use 110/90
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Get the bike up to operating temps. Go back to your house and pump up the tires to the max. air pressure that's on the tire. You probably have too much flex in the sidewalls at oem air pressures.
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Lou, sliding the fork legs UP though the clamps (read lowering the clamps on the fork legs) will slightly steepen your rake angle and reduce the trail.
This will quicken the bikes steering while reducing it's directional stability. If the steering geometry is such that you have too much trail or, your front tyre is too wide, then you can get directional instability because of the tendency of the front tyre to over correct.
Though the bike may benefit from slightly quicker steering I doubt that over correction is the problem.
Given that everything is set up and as tight as it should be, I think it's a trye problem.
I was most unhappy with the Metzler lazertechs that came on my 02 Calli but all problems disappeared and lighter steering resulted too, with a set Pirelli Sport Demons.
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Hi All
My 08 Vintage also goes into an alarming wallow when cornering under fairly spirited riding. Usually at speeds over 130kph. Under normal, i.e. quasi legal speeds, riding conditions it handles OK - a tad harsh, but no wobble or wallow.
I have reviewed this thread and, after eliminating the anecdotes and non-Vintage items, have come up with a list of things to check out.
They are, in no particular order:
1. Steering head bearings
- adjust. BTW what is meant by "I've nipped the head bearing nut down aprox 60 degrees" ?
- grease
2. Swing arm bearings
- adjust
- grease
3. Wheels
- Alignment
- runout (side to side)
- out of round?
- spokes
4. Steering damper
- tighten to frame & reduce damping
- or remove entirely
5. Tires
- radial bad - bias ply good
- I'm not going to discuss manufaturers - each to their own.
- tire pressure Again, each to their own - I run my Avon RRs at 38psi fr and 40psi rr.
- ensure tires are correct width and profile.
6. Wheel bearings
- ensure proper bearings in place
- grease
7. Front forks
- raise forks (lower bike) by 1/2 inch in the triple trees
- set preload & sag per rider's weight. Sag should be 1/3 of total travel - i.e. 20-25mm
8. Rear shocks
- set preload & sag per rider's weight. Sag shoud be 1/3 of total travel - i.e. 20-25mm
- shock length - 14 inches - eye to eye
NB - sag & shock length figures were provided by Todd at Guzzitech.
9. Hydraulics
- once preload and sag have been set, compression and rebound damping can be addressed.
- this is usually pretty subjective, depending on the rider's weight, road conditions, riding style etc.
Anyhow, that is my take. Did I miss anything important?
I'll be stepping thru all of these next spring to try and get this machine's handling sorted.
Then it's on to the FI.
Cheers!
G
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I have been studying this for a while as I also had problems, the bike was scary to ride. It is now fantastic. What I did was remove steering damper, checked all the suggestions such as steering head and swingarm bearings, but the major difference was, as suggested by two others, Pirelli Sport Demons front and rear. 42 psi rear, 38 front.
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look at the date of the first post. wow, a 10 year thread.
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I've had a Vintage for 13 years and occasionally some handling quirks came up. The worst was after installing new tires. The rim got bent outward very slightly by the ham-fisted installer (me) and fouled up the wheel's runout. This resulted in some wobbles that became worse at higher speeds. I sent the wheel to a wheel builder in Denver and he was able to fix it for about $250 (including shipping).
One of the other quirks came about from a windshield that was too upright and not quite centered. Careful windshield setup is pretty critical on these bikes, particularly with a taller aftermarket shield. Measure carefully to make certain the shield is fully centered. By the way, raking the shield back reduces buffeting, also.
I ran my Vintage with a top case for a while. There were times when passing trucks or side winds would push the rear end of the bike around. I no longer use the trunk, though it was nice for around town.
My 2007 bike was delivered missing one of the bolts that secures the rear rack to the frame. I wouldn't mention it, but a friend's Vintage was also missing the same bolt.
I had nothing but trouble with Metzler Lasertecs on two separate bikes. They lose traction all at once and make the bike handle worse and worse as they wear. I tried the Bridgestone BT45s and they were better, but felt twitchy...the steering was not linear and the bike seemed to fall into turns. I have had my best luck with Michelin Activs and Metzler ME88s. Also, my friend BrineyJim uses the Shinko 230 Tour Master on his Vintage and has been very satisfied for over 5000 miles.
Someone else mentioned it, but my bike handles best with both the compression and rebound fork dampening set 4 or 5 clicks back from max. I put a set of Ikon 7610 shocks, Hyperpro fork springs, and a Matris steering damper on my bike after 10 years of ownership and that really sharpened the bike's handling up a great deal. I also switched out the front brake rotors with the Grimecas from an Aprilia RSV4. This saved a kilo of unsprung weight.
My bike is pictured below. This was taken during a 650 mile weekend trip.
(https://i.ibb.co/w65NCT2/03-B55-F2-C-F4-AD-43-A4-A9-B4-3-C7-B4-D1-BBAE5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GPzvkXr)
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Just a thought, since the previous owner was "too short" for it.....just perhaps that little guy or his dealer/friend attempted to lower the bike through the triple tree or something else. Just a thought.