Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: virtualhabitat on March 06, 2011, 07:37:46 PM
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So I finally had an opportunity to adjust something on my V7. At 2700 miles, the clutch adjustment had been slowly loosening over the winter ,til finally it was getting difficult to shift (downshifting especially). When I slid the rubber boot away from the adjustment thingy I noticed the locking nut had long since vibrated away from its lock position. I adjusted the clutch really tight, leaving only a little play in the lever and locked it. It was very difficult to get used to when I took it out on the road. I was so conditioned to the poor adjustment I stalled the motor a couple of times. I also noticed that the first gear 'clunk' sound virtually disappeared, but was present when upshifting into second and sometimes third. It feels wrong somehow, but I don't know exactly how.
The question: is there a proper standard adjustment? how much free travel should there be in the hand lever? The owners manual is silent on the subject.
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Absolutely DO NOT adjust all of the play out of the clutch cable on the small block Guzzis. This will leave the clutch push rod pushing continuously on the clutch and within a short period of time, the rod will drill through and weld itself to the clutch plate. Disaster ensues. I'm not entirely clear on which part actually gets ruined but small block experts such as Pat Hayes will soon chime in to correct whatever I've got wrong. Be that as it may, refer to your owners manual NOW and adjust it to specifications.
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As I said, the owners manual seems to be silent on the subject of adjusting the clutch. I did readjust it a little, but it was getting dark and cold so I didn't test drive it again.
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As I said, the owners manual seems to be silent on the subject of adjusting the clutch. I did readjust it a little, but it was getting dark and cold so I didn't test drive it again.
You're right. I just searched the pdf owners manual and nary word on what the adjustment is supposed to be. Interesting though that page 18 and 81 mention clutch fluid. I know it's just wording out of the generic boilerplate owners manual file but what a hoot. They forgot blinker fluid though. ;D
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Oh gods, don't tell me I've ruined the blinkers because I failed to change the blinker fluid. You'd think they would have a blinking warning light for something like that.
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Those Guzzi transmission specialists, Zydeco Racing, wrote a blurb about clutch adjustment. It's informative, but not especially clear.
Find it here: http://www.zydecoracing.com/tips.html (http://www.zydecoracing.com/tips.html)
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Reading that left me thoroughly informed about what happens when it is adjusted improperly and equally confused about what proper adjustment actually is.
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When I was putting my breva back together I was told to put it on the centerstand and adjust until the back wheel was no longer engaged.
I wonder if the older manuals, v65's etc..., cover this in more detail ???
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Absolutely DO NOT adjust all of the play out of the clutch cable on the small block Guzzis. This will leave the clutch push rod pushing continuously on the clutch and within a short period of time, the rod will drill through and weld itself to the clutch plate. Disaster ensues. I'm not entirely clear on which part actually gets ruined but small block experts such as Pat Hayes will soon chime in to correct whatever I've got wrong. Be that as it may, refer to your owners manual NOW and adjust it to specifications.
There is a radial bearing in there with VERY fine needles. Suspect they just crumble under continuous pressure.
I adjust mine so the drag just goes when the lever is hard back, and make sure that when it is released that there is free play onthe lever and no pressure on the lever at the back of the gearbox.
As an aside, having had the mechanism apart when I did the gearbox, I would recommend that the lever at the rear of the gearbox be unhitched from the cable whenever you have the rear wheel out and clean and put some grease on that bearing. Clean if necessary. Watch out for the little pressure relief spring that takes the pressure off the bearing when the clutch is released. Trust me on that one! :-[
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If its like the 5 speeders on the older big blocks, yes everything Muzz and the rest tell you. I can sometimes check it with a feeler between the pushrod in the end case and the adjuster, but its a hit and miss affair. I read somewhere about 0.5mm (in an article, by an owner not official Guzzi), just enough that you do not put constant pressure on the pushrod when the clutch is engaged (by that I mean when you are not operating the lever).
John
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Weird. I could have sworn I saw a graphic showing the proper adjustment in one of the owner's / service manuals, but looking through everything I have I can't find it.
Anyway, here's a good post speaking to throwout bearings, etc, and what happens if you eat one. http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=33562.msg517958#msg517958
The aim, as has been said, is to adjust your clutch so the throwout bearing isn't loaded when the clutch is engaged, and there's no dragging when it's disengaged. And all this is assuming it's first adjusted properly at the arm end, with the clutch arm 90 degrees to the cable. If that's the case, then you can start adjusting at the lever end.
I have free play somewhere between 1/8 to 1/4" - ie there will be a 1/8" to 1/4" gap between the clutch lever and housing before you feel resistance. As long as you can shift down into first without "clunking" the transmission too badly, the cable is tight enough. How much more you tighten it then is rider preference based on feel. Certianly I find with the free play above, I need just a hint of clutch lever for shifts, and mostly don't use it at all upshifting.
But I don't think you can go wrong if you use shifting into first without clunking or lurching as the baseline, then work up from there, with 1/8" free play as the other outside limit.
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well I rode it to school this morning with the new readjustment and it feels much better. I have about a 1/4" of free travel in the lever before I feel any resistance and the first gear clunk is still nonexistent.
thanks for the replies.
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well I rode it to school this morning with the new readjustment and it feels much better. I have about a 1/4" of free travel in the lever before I feel any resistance and the first gear clunk is still nonexistent.
thanks for the replies.
Glad you sorted it out. When you get some free time, check the pivot arm at the other end of the cable, at the clutch itself. You want the arm free from hitting anything, when either the hand lever is pulled or released. You can adjust at the arm itself. The arm connections are deserving of some grease, although it's hard to get in there.
Joe
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My new V7C will not shift into any gear until it warms up for a few minutes. I'm not really concerned as the bike has to go back in for its first check up. I just don't want to get stranded. Is this common issue with Guzzi?
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I never had that problem with mine.
The old Bill ;D
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Hmmmm......my V11 does that and I have to let out on the clutch handle a bit and it slips into 1st. Once warm it is always fine............
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Bigwaves, you're talking about going from neutral into 1st, right?
It's a quirk of the design. Pre-load the shifter before you pull the clutch and shift.
What I mean is, slightly press on the shifter with your foot for just a second or two, and then go to the clutch lever and firmly press the shifter to go into gear.
Without going into the technical details (I need coffee first) let's just say "it's Italian."
Joe
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Bigwaves, you're talking about going from neutral into 1st, right?
It's a quirk of the design. Pre-load the shifter before you pull the clutch and shift.
What I mean is, slightly press on the shifter with your foot for just a second or two, and then go to the clutch lever and firmly press the shifter to go into gear.
Without going into the technical details (I need coffee first) let's just say "it's Italian."
Joe
BW,
It is a common design issue, mainly small block, due to being stationary that is easily overcome with rider technique. Joe is correct but read this as a lot of it applies: ;)
http://guzzista.wetpaint.com/page/Older+Small+Block+Issues%3F (http://guzzista.wetpaint.com/page/Older+Small+Block+Issues%3F)
Hi Joe, use the article if you desire, especially before coffee. Its why I wrote it. It answers most questions. :)
Cheers
Rod
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When mine was new it was very hard to up-shift into second when cold but became smooth as butter after a mile or two, improved when I switched to RedLine Heavy Duty Shockproof. It doesn't do it at all now. Give it some miles to break in. You also might want to check the clutch lever adjustment, what works for me is to sit on the bike in first gear motor off, move the bike with your feet work the lever to see where the engagement and disengagement point of the lever is. If it disengages too close to the end off travel against the bar, adjust the cable, for further out disengagement.
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My new V7C will not shift into any gear until it warms up for a few minutes. I'm not really concerned as the bike has to go back in for its first check up. I just don't want to get stranded. Is this common issue with Guzzi?
Much discussed when the Breva was the new&hot bike.
As the second method to Joes advice, you'll have a troublefree shift to 1st, by letting the clutch bite just a tiny little bit, when kicking in the gear.
If you cannot find the engaging point by fingerspitzgefühl, as Audi would put it, it's a good advice to keep the front brake engaged when performing the procedure... ;D
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The clutch is out of adjustment. When you get the service done I would think it will be perfect once again.
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A smallblock quirk, and some do it and some don't. Mine never did, but Luig ~;i did build some other quirks to compensate... :'( Mine has always shifted slicker than a hot knife through butter.
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When I first got mine I had the same trouble.
I suspected the clutch wasn't fully disengaging to I wound in the clutch cable a couple of turns, which sorted it.
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When I first got mine I had the same trouble.
I suspected the clutch wasn't fully disengaging to I wound in the clutch cable a couple of turns, which sorted it.
Some do respond to clutch adjustment. Mine does as I have very short fingers and have put a "stopper" in the handle to bring it in a bit closer so I can reach it. However, that means there is a VERY close tolerance between the free play and clutch drag, but it can be done.
Having scrutinised my g/box with an intense scrute when I had it apart, I suspect that there are a couple of dogs in there that sometimes dont go in straight off. The "release the clutch and rock" is probably enough to make them line up and in she goes. Coming up to an intersection I usually come to a complete stop and knock it in to neutral. Seems to go straight in doing that, not that it has ever been a problem anyway.
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I am a very happy of a new V7C (just traded the Vespa 300 for it), and mine has exactly the same issue. If I keep pressure down on the shift lever and very slightly engage the clutch it pops right into gear. I suspect a very tight tolerance on some dogs, that will eventually "break in". It reminds me of the stiff shifting on brand new Campagnolo bicycle components. After a bit of use, they get very smooth.
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My V7C has always been tough to shift until it warms up. I figured it was just the way it is from the thick gear oil in it. It's been 40-50f (or colder) just about every day this year, so I figured that added to the slow shifting. Once it warms up (less than 1/2 mile), it shifts perfectly.
The clutch was adjusted at first service, and I didn't notice any difference.
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Thanks for all the great advice worked perfect. Got to love these V7C!
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Didn't have that problem with my small block then again the low's get down to the low 70's here anyway. :-* :-* :-*
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Didn't have that problem with my small block then again the low's get down to the low 70's here anyway. :-* :-* :-*
Too much strong coffee tonight, eh? ;D
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Good one! ;D But in that case it would be a short block that works better in frequent short runs at higher rpm's then the big blocks. :-* :-* :-* :-* ;D
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Mine has similar issues but it seems to be improving as it breaks in.
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My 750 Breva did the same thing when it was cold(40F or colder) in the morning first starting out. I put 75W-90 oil in the tranny instead of the 80W-90 oil recommended. End of cold weather problem. ;-T
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My 750 Breva did the same thing when it was cold(40F or colder) in the morning first starting out. I put 75W-90 oil in the tranny instead of the 80W-90 oil recommended. End of cold weather problem. ;-T
Come to think of it, semi- synthetic 75/90 is what has gone in to it from new.
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Thanks for all the great advice worked perfect. Got to love these V7C!
So what was the problem after all. You never said what the fix was. We need to know!!!!!!
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As with at least one other comment here when I collected my bike from the dealers back in 2008, the gearshift in to and out of first was terrible. Terrible to the point that I eventually pulled over after a few miles and made some basic adjustments to the clutch and lever myself and it was fine thereafter. Can't say I was overly impressed with the dealer - a Guzzi specialist - hadn't been set up correctly at all. Never a problem since.
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my 2010 v7 classic makes a lot of noise downshifting-i,ve tried adjusting the clutch lever, using different positions , ect-this is my first guzzi-is it standard to have this loud clacking while shifting-it just got 1500 miles on it-it happens upshifting on occasion too
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hello there-my 2010 v7 classic makes lots of noise mostly downshifting-i've tried adjusting the clutch lever and can't seem to find the right position to stop the loud clacking-is this standard on guzzi's? this is my first one-it also happens half the time upshifting-i'm waiting to fall in love-it has 1500 miles on it now
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On some bikes there can be noise when the clutch is pulled in, or when sitting in neutral. The noise should be eliminated or greatly reduced when in gear and running.
It's from the clutch plates, or the vibrating plate springs. The noise is amplified by the clutch bell, and is a characteristic of the dry clutch.
If you're worried, have another Guzzi or Ducati rider listen to it. Ducatis have dry clutchs too, and are famous for the noise.
Joe
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Our Breva does the rustle on idle, but no noise on downshifting. Shifts slicker than a lizzard up a drainpipe.
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If I keep the clutch in while coming to a stop over bumpy terrain my breva makes a good bit of noise. It has always done that.
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The "clunks" and "clinks" in the tranny as well as the Italian percussion section under your valve covers are all part of the "classic" in V7 Classic. Normal.
Now enjoy those sounds. ;-T
-Kev
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Mine gives a hefty "clunk" when downshifting, occasionally. Particularly when going in first from neutral. I've understood this to be normal.
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My 2007 Breva 1100 gives a healthy clunk about 50% of time whether upshifting or downshifting. Other times I hardly know I've changed gear at all. It never misses a gear though and there doesn't seem to be any technique I can devise to change it. I'm assuming its character too.
Amazingly my Eldo has the slickest box of the three. I put it down to the higher miles.
Nick
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For upshifts, pre-load the shift lever with your foot, then roll off the throttle 25% combined with a quick stab of the clutch - transmission unloading does the rest (snick, no clunk). Full throttle upshifts need no clutch at all. For downshifts, blip the throttle 50% while simultaneously pulling in the clutch, followed by gear change and letting out clutch. This should be all one smooth motion and works best with bikes that have slipper clutches. These techniques work real well with the V7C. The only clunks are the occasional ones going in and out of first gear. Not to sound like a commercial, but I rode many years before I read about proper shifting techniques in Lee Park's Total Control book. Smooth shifting saves wear on your transmission!
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I have no problem with mine, shifts as smooth as silk, up and down ;-T Heading towards the 16,000 mile mark ;D :D :BEER:
The old Bill ;D
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As has already been sais, match the engine speed to the road speed for the gear as you change down by blipping the throttle. Especially when new the five speeds in the smallblocks seem to be very 'Tight'. I'll probably get better with time.
VDG
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I'd say too that it has to do with riding style. I can shift gears using my clutch and adapting rpm's and it will sound like an automatic transmission. I can also make it sound like a semi truck missing/jamming its gears :D
It's all in the wrists of your hands and you left footty ;-T SB's transmission mostly works very nice in spite of its old fashion design, just DON'T let the lube level get below 1L :o ;)
Ciao
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I'd say too that it has to do with riding style. I can shift gears using my clutch and adapting rpm's and it will sound like an automatic transmission. I can also make it sound like a semi truck missing/jamming its gears :D
;-T Said another way, some days I'm a Rider 8) ....and some days I'm a Dufus. ::)
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The shifting gets better as it breaks in. I'm assuming the tranny oil was changed at the first service? A good quality oil helps with shifting.
For proper clutch adjustment, there should be 1-2mm of freeplay at the clutch lever. No freeplay is bad-it can cause clutch plate problems. I've noticed that my bike shifts better with less freeplay. YMMV.
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Picked up my new V7 Racer today. It shifts fine up and down however when coming to a stop or at a stop it will not go into neutral. Extreme pressure is required to move from first to second or second to first when idling at a stop. If I shut the engine off it goes into neutral no problem. The dealer seemed to think things were stiff and needed seating in but after a couple hundred km's it's just as bad. I seem to remember reading a post about a V7 with shifting problems but I can't find anything. Has anyone else had this problem? Other than that my first impression is this is going to be a fun little bike. It even manages to haul my fat a$$ around ;D
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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clutch cable adjustment?
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When I took it back to the dealer that's what we looked at and checked but he didn't think that was the problem but that's what it feels like to me.
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I"m not sure they'll fit, but I can send you a couple of extras from my EVT. They don't light the light though. ;D
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Mine does that. It's hard to find mechanical neutral unless you are rolling. I think it is just a very tightly assembled transmission. Another 20,000 miles on them will make us appreciate this quirk. It will loosen up with miles.
What number did you get and where was the delivery?
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The dealer is in Chilliwack BC. He ordered 4 but only received 3. #57,58 and 61. I was first in line so got to pick my number and seeing as I'm 58 and my wife was born in 58 that made it simple. #58
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Clutch adjustment.
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Hey Rick, mine (#61) is the same, i don't have a chance to bring the bike back yet. mine feels like when the clutch level fully squeeze, the clutch didn't disengage all the way. sometime I cant even shift up when the bike is moving (specially 1 to 2 and 2nd to 3rd). I have to left the gear level up before I squeeze the clutch to shift up.
How do you adjust the clutch on these V7 racer?
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Hey Rick, mine (#61) is the same, i don't have a chance to bring the bike back yet. mine feels like when the clutch level fully squeeze, the clutch didn't disengage all the way. sometime I cant even shift up when the bike is moving (specially 1 to 2 and 2nd to 3rd). I have to left the gear level up before I squeeze the clutch to shift up.
How do you adjust the clutch on these V7 racer?
If it is notably easier to shift down than to shift up, ask the dealer to adjust the bolt at the rear of the tranny. DO NOT DO THIS YOURSELF!!! You take it 1/6th turn at a time one way or the other (because who knows which way does what?) and if it gets worse you went the wrong way, if better than you have your answer. If you take the bolt too far (more likely more than 1/2 turn) you will be pulling the transmission. >:(
I'm only saying that this is the adjustment for the problem of up-shifts being troublesome in comparison to down-shifts, or the opposite. In the case that some shifts hit false-neutrals, or sometimes things are good and other times they're not, I would give it time to settle in or try adjusting the cable at the bars to make sure it has precise slack, then give it time. These bikes need to break in over several thousand miles.
-Kevin
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For some reason your clutch is dragging making neutral difficult to find when stopped with the motor running. When you shift up it goes into second or when you shift down it goes into first. I suspect you are not having trouble finding neutral when the motorcycle is rolling or as you stated with the engine stopped. I also suspect rocking the motorcycle back and forth while shifting seem to help. If you are satisfied all external adjustments are correct then slid the transmission back and check the clutch splines for starters. Your clutch or a clutch component could be warped however if this were the case I would also expect to see some chatter. I would take a hard look at the splines of both the clutch and the transmission input spline/gear. Your motorcycle should shift correctly right off of the show room floor.
Matt
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Hey Rick, mine (#61) is the same, i don't have a chance to bring the bike back yet. mine feels like when the clutch level fully squeeze, the clutch didn't disengage all the way. sometime I cant even shift up when the bike is moving (specially 1 to 2 and 2nd to 3rd). I have to left the gear level up before I squeeze the clutch to shift up.
How do you adjust the clutch on these V7 racer?
You can do the same thing without pulling in the clutch lever infact, with some exceptions, you can shift any motorcycle that way. Your clutch is dragging. Please see above.
Matt
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Picked up my new V7 Racer today. It shifts fine up and down however when coming to a stop or at a stop it will not go into neutral. Extreme pressure is required to move from first to second or second to first when idling at a stop. If I shut the engine off it goes into neutral no problem. The dealer seemed to think things were stiff and needed seating in but after a couple hundred km's it's just as bad. I seem to remember reading a post about a V7 with shifting problems but I can't find anything. Has anyone else had this problem? Other than that my first impression is this is going to be a fun little bike. It even manages to haul my fat a$$ around ;D
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
You will need to let the clutch out slightly if you want to shift from Neutral into first at a stop.
Here's the drill: Pull in clutch. Push down on shifter. Slowly and slightly let the clutch out until you feel the bike slip into gear with your foot that's still pushing down on the shift lever...
It's a characteristic of Guzzi transmissions, and not a big deal.
There's no good reason to move from first, past neutral, to second at a stop, so don't do it.
However, as I said, letting the clutch out slightly so that it can move the tranny's internals should allow you to do it, if you must...
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You will need to let the clutch out slightly if you want to shift from Neutral into first at a stop.
Here's the drill: Pull in clutch. Push down on shifter. Slowly and slightly let the clutch out until you feel the bike slip into gear with your foot that's still pushing down on the shift lever...
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+1 TRUST ME- Rocker is dead on here. If you search for it- you'll find other threads about this with confounded small block owners. It's just how they work and it will become second nature. Ease the clutch lever out and apply a little pressure on the lever- you'll feel it snick in. If you just hold the clutch in and stomp on the lever, she will resist your crude advances!
Your toe will "learn" how to shift into neutral in time. It's actually a very rugged, well designed gearbox. Another factoid is that it is NOT shimmed- so it's not an "adjustment" issue.
So, you are faced with the advice I've been told all too often: seat time! Now get out there and tear off to a cafe on that sexy little scoot!
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Sit on the bike, motor off, pull lever all the way to the bar, Put in first gear, Start foot paddling the bike, slowly release clutch lever, How far or how little does the handle have to move to stop the bike ?
How much or lack of free play is in the clutch lever ?
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I think some of you are misunderstanding my problem. I have no problem going into first or any gear. The problem is finding neutral either rolling to a stop or at a complete stop. The clutch starts disengaging with the lever only about 1/4" from the grip. I have adjusted the cable at the bar end out and it still won't find neutral. This is frustrating when at a long red light or coasting in stop and go traffic. I was going to look at the adjustment at the transmission but I can't find anything in the manual. I may just follow everything and see whats what.
Dan, with the foot paddling, the clutch disengages 1/2" from the grip. The cable adjustment at the bar is almost all the way out.
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Thanks Carl, I just went for a short blast (before the rain) and I adjusted the lever out a bit more. It was better. I hit neutral in a couple of rolling stops. Maybe it just needs some more time to loosen up.
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Thanks Carl, I just went for a short blast (before the rain) and I adjusted the lever out a bit more. It was better. I hit neutral in a couple of rolling stops. Maybe it just needs some more time to loosen up.
Maybe it just needs to be properly adjusted.. 8)
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Congrats on the purchase Rick! I'll watch for you on the road in Burnaby. I bought my V7 Cafe Classic back in December. I had the same issues you described in your post and I found that fine tuning the lever adjustment for the clutch helped a little, but ultimately it was just miles on the road that eventually loosened up the gearbox enough to now be quite smooth.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Kyle.
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I think someone mentioned that the gears are straight cut as well. Is that the case?
Yep.
I can help you finding neutral. It's right between 1st and second... ;D
It takes some time to loosen up. In the meantime a little fiddeling with the clutch will help a lot.
As finding 1st...
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Straight-cut gears, no shims, and I have doubts about quality control, at least during the De Tomaso era as the mainshaft in my Monza gearbox cracked *outside of the front bearing* halfway through the threads under the peened nut that holds it all together.
Result was that the shaft flexed just enough that the gearset I was in at the time -- third -- went BANG! and shed teeth. As I rattled to the side of the road, clutch in and hearing ugly noises from underneath, my first thought was "if I can get out of this for under a grand, I'll be happy". $850 later, and two reassemblies as the clutch pushrod seal leaked after the first time, it was better than new.
And recently has been shifting incredibly well. Micro-adjustment of the locknut/allen screw combo on the lever on the back of the gearbox is essential, iterative, and time consuming. It helps to have tiny hands. Some Guzzis (Monza) use an allen bolt (metric fine-pitch), others (V50 and LM IV) have a special bolt with a flat projection that resists needle-nose pliers. "special tool" in the toolkit or make your own. Or needle-noses and special incantations…
V50 shifts much klunkier but has half the miles. Just passed 10,000. So not even broken in yet.
Regarding neutral - which one? ~;
cr
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Regarding neutral - which one? ~;
cr
+1
Matt
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The sb trannies are a bit on the whiny side. So I'm told it's the straight cuts.
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I wish I could add something, but it's already been said. Here is a link to clutch adjustment instructions and transmission tips from a racer outfit that specializes in Guzzi transmissions.
http://www.zydecoracing.com/tips.html (http://www.zydecoracing.com/tips.html)
They are just like the factory instructions though, because it's hard to fathom the real meaning.
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Hey Rick,
When are we going to see this beauty?
Perhaps we should start a bike night
What about Cumpari's on North road near the Louheed mall.
I was talking with the owner last Sunday, he used to ride a Gillera
now drives a newish Bently
Roy
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Rick, Do like Carl suggested, all smallblocks nowdays come from factory w/adjuster at lever loose and almost all the way out w/adjusted properly. Run the lever adj almost all the way in (gives you adj space after cable stretch in future) then run adj on lever in Carls pic in (should be about 1/2 to 3/4 turn) and tighten locknut. I do not know why they all come this way, maybe it is to sell more cables, cuz after awhile you have no more adj at the lever. All I have done this to shift like butter and have no problem finding nuetral. Make sure you have 1/4" freeplay at lever so no load is on clutch rod.
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Thanks Steve, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. I'll do it when I get home from work.
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Wow 28 posts on a simple clutch/cable adjustment.Its not unusual for any bike to be difficult to find neutral at a dead stop,just a bit of clutch drag.
A Guzzi and BMW should be better in this regard due to the automotive style dry clutch which will release more cleanly than your usual wet multi plate unit.
BTW the reason at some times the pressure on the shift lever and gently let the clutch out for it to drop into gear is for precisly the opposite reason to this post.This is because the trans stops completely and if the selector and gear dogs dont line up letting the clutch out a little gets the trans to turn a little for them to line up and drop in with pressure on the shifter.
Just adjust the cable until there is minimal free play at the lever.There needs to be some free play though.
If its still an issue get used to finding neutral as you roll to a stop and give the clutch a couple of thousand miles to bed in.It should be fine by then.
Ciao
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Hey guys. Getting the old girl cleaned up before selling her and there is a nagging problem that has been bothering me since I dusted it off from winter storage and started riding her a bit. When I put the V7 away for the winter shifting was crisp and clean, no issues what so ever. Come spring time I find its like trying to push the shifter through mush. All of the gears work fine, no mechanical noise or grinding, just the physical exertion required to change gears is much higher than it used to be and there's no mechanical feedback like a click when it slips into place. It's very soft just, eh...
I tried adjusting the clutch cable, no joy. Thinking perhaps shifting linkage needs some lube or even a gearbox oil change. 6500 miles and it's had the 6000 miles service done.
Thoughts?
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Check linkage. Should not be a change in the internals from sitting. That gear lube is not going to thicken unless you boiled it uncovered all winter. :P Sounds like grease that got gritty or something external.
-Kevin
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Have a lube recommendation?
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I'd try a bit of WD-40 to clean and lube the linkage. If it's a litlle rusty, the WD will help with that too.
Did you just pull the bike out of storage recently? Being 40f around here today, my V7C always shifts slow and mushy until the tranny starts warming up. Take it for a good long ride to make sure everything warms up properly. That could be all it needs.
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I had this happen to a v700 and a t3.After sitting over winter the shift rods that the shift forks slide on, got some rust.This made the forks hard to slide.Had to take the traney apart to get it right.
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Whisper into her left mirror that you're not really going to sell her. She may relax and loosen up.
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The only time I ever had an issue like that was when the lock nuts on the linkage (8 in the diagram above) came loose. Wound the rod length back out where it needed and tightened the locknuts and she was perfect again.
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I suspect the linkage is loose and/or needs lubrication. Cold trany oil may be contributing too. Chipmaker's experience (internal rust) is interesting, but try the other suggestions first.
Let us know how it works out.
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Whisper into her left mirror that you're not really going to sell her. She may relax and loosen up.
You'd still have to lube her! ;D ;D ;D
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I have had the ball(s) on the linkage come loose on the Breva which altered the feel a bit. The nuts on them are a bit awkward to get at but it can be done.
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There's been some weirdness going on with my V7C since I got it. I posted a couple of weeks ago after I bought the bike and found out that most of the things I was experiencing were normal but I'm pretty sure this problem isn't.
Since I bought it I've felt that the clutch isn't quite right - at first the lever had a lot of slack so I tightened it up. That, through my own fault, made shifting between first and second very difficult when cold and often resulted in the bike stalling as I pulled away in the mornings. Discovering this, I loosened it again to have about 2/8ths of an inch of slack at the lever and for about a week everything was running really well, shifting was much smoother, etc. But then yesterday I rode into work and while the bike was fine in the morning it repeatedly died when I was trying to leave in the evening. I'd got ready to go so the bike had about a minute to warm up, checked the sidestand was up, down into first and out of the car park. When I got to the first junction there was traffic so I pulled the clutch all the way in but the revs dropped below 1000, down to about 500, as if the clutch was still engaged and then the bike stalled. It did the same when I tried to restart it and I had to pull over and tighten the clutch lever before I could leave. After that adjustment it wasn't playing up any longer (though the hard-to-get-into-second problem is back) but what worries me is that the lock nut was still tight and I had to use a key to undo it - surely that means that either the clutch cable has stretched or some other part of the linkage has gone and slipped somehow? I mean, clutches shouldn't adjust themselves, should they? :o
I still have dealership warranty so is it worth them having a look? Any ideas what might be happening?
Update: Idle revs seem fine - about 1000 when cold, 1100 when hot.
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Idling revs are adjustable but not by an analyzer; it's completely manual work. Let the workshop do the job if under warranty, otherwise there's a how-to here: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=9976.msg147175#new
If it doesn't come up, join the smallblock forum http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/MG_750/ and look for the "files" section. Much about Brevas and Nevadas, but they are all the same unless you got the new motor.
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be sure to set the slack at the handlever to the value that is requested in the owners manual,
it shall be done with a warm engine IIRC.
Any idea what that might be? I couldn't find any reference in the V7 user or service manuals. I remember hearing 1/8" somewhere but that seems to be quite taut.
The idle revs are normally fine when I pull the clutch in...about 1000 once the bike has settled. It was just yesterday that they dipped and it stalled, I don't usually have to play with the throttle to keep it running.
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I just picked up my new V7 Racer this weekend (my first MG). Put about 5 hours on it over 2 days and loving it - not a lot of power but a blast to ride. Couple issues though: 1) Having a lot of difficulty getting it into nuetral while stopped at lights. From 1st, it skips through nuetral into 2nd and vice versa. Not a problem getting inot neutral when the engine off and can rock back and forth a bit - but just won't go into neutral when out on the road and running. Is this somewhat normal for a brand new MG? Will it break in or do I need to bring back to dealer for adjustment? 2) The distance between the foot peg and the shifter lever is a little high requiring me to really jack my foot high in order to change gears. Can the shifter lever be adjusted (essentially lowered) to make shifting easier and if so how easy is it to do? The owners manual offers virtually no help. I am trying to avoid a trip to the dealer if I can as I live fairly far away. Any input or guidance would be much appreciated. Thanks, PMR15
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Yes it will improve as the box wears in. It is a straight cut gearbox and neutral can be a little bit of a tap dance, especially when the box is hot. 1st requires clutch technique. on the other hand, when the box is cold. File under "Character"!
There is a massive amount of adjustment in the lever position. Check the threaded rod that runs beside your foot. Loosen off the two locknuts (one either end) and then turn the rod to adjust to your heart's content. You'll also see the end of the shifter is mounted on a cam - you can loosen off the hex bolt and rotate the shift alloy/rubber to where you want it.
The pegs themselves can also be raised rearwards and dropped forwards about 1/2" with a single bolt. Those billet rearset pegs on the Racer are a work of art!
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Those in the know, who have opened up one of those gearboxes can educate me on this, but I was under the impression that the transmission on those was pretty much the same as the 1986 small blocks. Or am I mistaken. Meaning, thats just how they are, long throw and inprecise.
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Muschi,
I have about 140 miles on my new V7R. The first fifty miles the transmission seemed stiff, and neutral elusive. Second ride it got better and yesterday better still. My interpretation is these bikes need some break-in, and then the shifting gets easier. I also think a gentle touch with the boot is preferred. My riding style includes a lot of shifting, on purpose right now, to get used to the bike and get those metal bits meshing.
Yes, you can adjust the linkage, I played with mine a bit, and also the clutch free play. I think if you are patient, you will have less problems. But, I am far from an expert.
Good luck!
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Proper clutch freeplay if I remember right, is 1mm. Next to nothing, but not nothing. Try to get near that number, as too much or too little can wear the mechanism (tired, don't want to dig up the details).
Lee, in some ways you're right that the trans is a design from 1986, but actually Guzzi has made a number of improvements. The modern smallblock transmission is much better now than the old days. There is better lubrication for 5th gear, better shifting, durability, etc.
I'm not sure if the trans gets better with use, or the rider simply learns how to deal with it's idiosyncrasies. Probably a little of both. I know it was that way with me.
Joe
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There have been a bunch of threads on this V7 shifting issue. I'm going to merge as many as I can drag with the search engine.
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Thanks to all for the great feedback. I will give the shifting issue a little more time as the bike breaks in to see if it resolves. Also thanks for the instruction on the lever adjustment. Sounds like a fairly easy task - I will give it a try. Pmr15.
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I've got a 2013 V7 Stone with just over 10,000 km and recently, I've found myself occasionally approaching an intersection, trying to gear down from second to first and having no luck. So, when the light turns green, I'm stuck in second gear and having to rev up the engine more than usual to pull away. It's been happening most often in stop and go traffic. But it doesn't happen consistently. On my last commute, I once found myself unable to gear down from third.
I had the bike with the dealer for routine annual maintenance in January. I also checked the free-play and there is about 1/8 of an inch at the clutch lever. The lock nuts are tight. I also left it with the dealer last week to see if they could figure it out and they claimed they couldn't reproduce the symptoms. When I picked up the bike again from the dealer, the symptoms reappeared for me. Appreciate any thoughts on what might be the problem ..... with the bike :)
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Are you rolling or sitting still when trying to gear down?
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FWIW - I have about 100 miles on my new V7. I actually find that it goes into first gear (both moving stopped) similar and even slightly easier than my old V11 Sport. Unless there is some other issue with the setup the rocking certainly makes it easier as well as letting out the clutch just a smidgen.
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I've got a 2013 V7 Stone with just over 10,000 km and recently, I've found myself occasionally approaching an intersection, trying to gear down from second to first and having no luck. So, when the light turns green, I'm stuck in second gear and having to rev up the engine more than usual to pull away. It's been happening most often in stop and go traffic. But it doesn't happen consistently. On my last commute, I once found myself unable to gear down from third. (etc)
I've had this issue on mine as well. It's only happened on longer rides and stop and go on hot days, as if something is swelling and preventing the shift. Doesn't happen often, but when it does it's bad. I don't have a solution though aside from pulling over, turning off the bike, and letting everything cool down a quick minute.
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There's no reason to EVER pull away in 2nd on that bike.
1. Slip the clutch a little as you try and shift it into first. If necessary slip it for a second, pull the lever back again and shift at the same time. It should work.
but
2. If "1" doesn't work then the clutch cable is NOT properly adjusted and is, most likely, not fully releasing when held toward the grip.
In my experience a number of machines (demo, my own when delivered etc.) simply were not releasing the clutch sufficiently when the held toward the grip. The first time I rode a V7 Stone demo (and it was it's maiden voyage from the dealership) the clutch had not been touched and I literally had to pull over on the side of the road, shut off the motor, and adjust it before I could easily shift from 2-1 not moving.
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I've had this issue on mine as well. It's only happened on longer rides and stop and go on hot days, as if something is swelling and preventing the shift. Doesn't happen often, but when it does it's bad. I don't have a solution though aside from pulling over, turning off the bike, and letting everything cool down a quick minute.
I too have noticed the shifter can get tougher in very hot weather... and I agree I've always thought it was heat expansion reducing play. But again, careful clutch adjustment seems to eliminate or minimize it.
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Are you rolling or sitting still when trying to gear down?
I'm still rolling while gearing down ...
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There's no reason to EVER pull away in 2nd on that bike.
1. Slip the clutch a little as you try and shift it into first. If necessary slip it for a second, pull the lever back again and shift at the same time. It should work.
but
2. If "1" doesn't work then the clutch cable is NOT properly adjusted and is, most likely, not fully releasing when held toward the grip.
In my experience a number of machines (demo, my own when delivered etc.) simply were not releasing the clutch sufficiently when the held toward the grip. The first time I rode a V7 Stone demo (and it was it's maiden voyage from the dealership) the clutch had not been touched and I literally had to pull over on the side of the road, shut off the motor, and adjust it before I could easily shift from 2-1 not moving.
Thanks. I'll give "1." a try.
In terms of "2.", I have the play on the lever set at about 1/8". Should it be tighter or looser?
Re: local temperatures, it's between 10C and 15C here in Victoria BC, so I don't think that's a major factor.
thx all
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Thanks. I'll give "1." a try.
In terms of "2.", I have the play on the lever set at about 1/8". Should it be tighter or looser?
Re: local temperatures, it's between 10C and 15C here in Victoria BC, so I don't think that's a major factor.
thx all
Try a TAD tighter. Make sure that when the lever is held to the grip it is truly releasing the clutch and allowing the input shaft to stop spinning.
Just make sure it isn't so tight that it allows it to slip when you let go of the lever.
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Funny, I have never had that problem on the Breva.
However, when Steamdriven and myself had the box apart (again) to replace the Mk11 pattern pre-select mechanism that was not supposed to jamb but did, we saw that the one noticeable area that the V7 box was different was in the style of that pre-selector mechanism. Don't know whether it has any bearing on the problem but it begs the question why MG have had three different iterations in basically the same box.
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There's no reason to EVER pull away in 2nd on that bike.
1. Slip the clutch a little as you try and shift it into first. If necessary slip it for a second, pull the lever back again and shift at the same time. It should work.
but
2. If "1" doesn't work then the clutch cable is NOT properly adjusted and is, most likely, not fully releasing when held toward the grip.
In my experience a number of machines (demo, my own when delivered etc.) simply were not releasing the clutch sufficiently when the held toward the grip. The first time I rode a V7 Stone demo (and it was it's maiden voyage from the dealership) the clutch had not been touched and I literally had to pull over on the side of the road, shut off the motor, and adjust it before I could easily shift from 2-1 not moving.
I tried both "1." and "2." over the weekend, but no luck. And the downshifting problem is becoming more frequent. I'm thinking that my V7 Stone is now destined for a clutch job very soon. :(
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Before you do that .....
Check for any slop or looseness in the shift linkage - I had trouble shifting for a while until I found my shift arm #9 in the diagram, was loose. I had to replace the fastener #6 with a new one.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/shift%20linkage_zpsxspzxeax.jpg)
Check for any slop in the linkages!
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And on my 1100 Sport, that shift arm would no longer grip the spline. Removing some of the metal with a 1mm disc in an angle grinder widened the split enough for the bolt to grip. Got me back on the road again (in the pouring rain on the west coast of NZ's South Island, thanks to a friendly local).
Mal
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Before you do that .....
Check for any slop or looseness in the shift linkage - I had trouble shifting for a while until I found my shift arm #9 in the diagram, was loose. I had to replace the fastener #6 with a new one.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/shift%20linkage_zpsxspzxeax.jpg)
Check for any slop in the linkages!
I checked the linkage. Unfortunately, all seems tight.
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(in the pouring rain on the west coast of NZ's South Island, thanks to a friendly local).
Mal
It don't do anything else over there. ;D
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OK, only because he's tried everything else shy of removing and opening the box, here's the last adjustment (the arm on the transmission):
Pete Roper:
OK. Firstly, unless you have an issue leave it alone!
There should be a couple of mm of movement at the lever on the bar before you begin to feel resistance. This is the free play needed to prevent the arm riding the thrust bearing and constantly pre-loading the clutch. I know a lot of people like the clutch lever to feel 'Firm' and not move about in the perch but this is actually bad for the system. You have to have that free play!
If you have the handlebar adjuster on the perch backed all the way out and there is still TOO MUCH free play at the bar? Then and only then do you need to frig about with the difficult to access adjuster on the actuating arm on the back of the gearbox.
In the case you cannot get the free play right with the perch adjuster proceed like this.
1.) Turn the perch adjuster 3/4 of the way in towards the lever increasing the free play.
2.) Grab a 13mm spanner and I think for a V7 of your vintage a 3mm Allen key and lie down by the bike. Make sure it can't fall on you while you're messing about. If you have a lift? Elevate the bike appropriately.
3.) Loosen the 13mm locknut on the arm adjuster and then using the Allen key wind the adjuster IN towards the engine until resistance is felt. Back it off about an eighth of a turn and lock up the locknut.
4.) Slither out cursing from under the bike and go round and feel the free play in the lever on the handlebar. If it is close to the 2mm of free play you are aiming for simply use the perch adjuster to get it right and you're done. If it is too tight? Get back under the bike and loosen the locknut and wind the arm adjuster out a smidge more. If you still have too much play at the lever wind the arm adjuster in a bit and lock it up again.
5.) Repeat step 4 until you have the free play correct and most of the adjustment at the perch is available for tightening in service. This will coincide with your being really dirty and pissed off but life's like that.
6.) Put 13mm spanner and Allen key back in toolbox, curse, brush off as much grot as possible from your clothes and go to the fridge and crack a beer.
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thx Kev: Appreciate you taking the trouble to dig this up for me. I'll give this a go on the weekend.
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Funny, I have never had that problem on the Breva.
However, when Steamdriven and myself had the box apart (again) to replace the Mk11 pattern pre-select mechanism that was not supposed to jamb but did, we saw that the one noticeable area that the V7 box was different was in the style of that pre-selector mechanism. Don't know whether it has any bearing on the problem but it begs the question why MG have had three different iterations in basically the same box.
Three different versions of the pre-selectors? Well, I hope they are all improvements on the previous version.
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Three different versions of the pre-selectors? Well, I hope they are all improvements on the previous version.
Sounds like they all behave the same no matter the selector, so technique is the key. All gears are easier to find while in motion. As you're coming to a stop, find neutral while in motion as well as all downshifts. Best of luck downshifting while stopped. First gear is a hit/miss thing, but better while warmed up and broken in. This thread will pull a lot of newbies in thinking they have an issue when they don't. Give it time and use proper techniques given and 99% should be just fine.
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OK, only because he's tried everything else shy of removing and opening the box, here's the last adjustment (the arm on the transmission):
Quote
Pete Roper:
OK. Firstly, unless you have an issue leave it alone!
There should be a couple of mm of movement at the lever on the bar before you begin to feel resistance. This is the free play needed to prevent the arm riding the thrust bearing and constantly pre-loading the clutch. I know a lot of people like the clutch lever to feel 'Firm' and not move about in the perch but this is actually bad for the system. You have to have that free play!
If you have the handlebar adjuster on the perch backed all the way out and there is still TOO MUCH free play at the bar? Then and only then do you need to frig about with the difficult to access adjuster on the actuating arm on the back of the gearbox.
In the case you cannot get the free play right with the perch adjuster proceed like this.
1.) Turn the perch adjuster 3/4 of the way in towards the lever increasing the free play.
2.) Grab a 13mm spanner and I think for a V7 of your vintage a 3mm Allen key and lie down by the bike. Make sure it can't fall on you while you're messing about. If you have a lift? Elevate the bike appropriately.
3.) Loosen the 13mm locknut on the arm adjuster and then using the Allen key wind the adjuster IN towards the engine until resistance is felt. Back it off about an eighth of a turn and lock up the locknut.
4.) Slither out cursing from under the bike and go round and feel the free play in the lever on the handlebar. If it is close to the 2mm of free play you are aiming for simply use the perch adjuster to get it right and you're done. If it is too tight? Get back under the bike and loosen the locknut and wind the arm adjuster out a smidge more. If you still have too much play at the lever wind the arm adjuster in a bit and lock it up again.
5.) Repeat step 4 until you have the free play correct and most of the adjustment at the perch is available for tightening in service. This will coincide with your being really dirty and pissed off but life's like that.
6.) Put 13mm spanner and Allen key back in toolbox, curse, brush off as much grot as possible from your clothes and go to the fridge and crack a beer.
I gave this a go and but when I had a look for the "arm adjuster" near the transmission, I couldn't see one. The clutch cable appears to be connected directly to the clutch release shaft on the transmission. Not giving up, this weekend I took my bike to a local motorcycle coop for some advice. After a quick spin, the mechanic suggested that my shifter linkage is indeed sloppy and that the problem could be a failed shifter return spring....the spring near the letter "A" in the image posted by Penderic above. I'm going to let coop's mechanic have a closer look next week...
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Just a quick update to say that the coop's mechanic was right. The shifter return spring had failed but ... because it wasn't completely broken, it would work intermitantly. So having had the spring replaced, I'm a few $hundred lighter now .... but things are working nicely again.
Here's a photo of the offending part.
(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w366/omaslany/2015-06-06_11-52-03_zpsj0rqtvi0.png)
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Awesome! Glad to hear and thanks for reporting back!!!
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This thread will pull a lot of newbies in thinking they have an issue when they don't. Give it time and use proper techniques given and 99% should be just fine.
Correct. The first pre-selector fork did not last long in production at all. Mine is a 2003 model and it had the later one fitted. It was just bad luck that I got a 2nd generation one that just happened to be able to jam. Before we installed the 2nd hand one that Pete sent over we tried to get it to jam but could not.
OJM, that is the first spring break that I know of to happen in the small block gear box. Simple bad luck.
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My .02 worth. Proper clutch adjustment is first. Second, I use full synthetic gear oil. Some times I will get a clunk into first when cold, most I won't. It has gotten better with miles (now 3900), but the best advice I got here is to 'preload' the shift lever and it WILL shift much smoother more often. With previous experience with Italian transmissions, it will take a lot of miles to get close to Japanese smooth and consistent shifting. It is just the 'character' of the bike.