Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Madness MC on January 15, 2013, 06:47:47 PM
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Hello !! I'm a new member (as of 7 PM E.S.T.), having joined on Jan. 15th, 2013. I own a motorcycle repair shop in Elgin, SC and have recently had several (potential) and existing customers interested in having their various year & model MGs worked on at my shop.
I'm currently in the process of "restoring" a 1978 T3 850 for one of my customers and would like as much information as possible in regards to eliminating the dual-point ignition system in favor of a more reliable electronic ignition system. I am also asking this information so that I may eventually perform a similar upgrade to my personal (circa 1970) G7.
If anyone has any information pro or con, regarding this possible enhancement, I'd like to get all of the information possible. I have previously checked with 123Ignition USA and they have informed me that there is no direct replacement available through their sources.
So if anyone out there has additional info, please share what you have been able to find out regarding a solution to my quest.
Thanks.
Madness MC
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Welcome to WG. Search is your friend, here. Dyna will fix you up.
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For the T3, as Chuck says, a Dyna is the most popular unit:
http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=1592
Use these coils with it:
http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=2330
"Circa 1970 G7" - do you mean a V750 Ambassador or a later V1000 G5? The G5 would use the same Dyna and coils. An Ambassador doesn't need an electronic ignition IMO - the single point distributor is dead simple to set and maintain and very durable. If you just gotta' have an electronic ignition though, Harper's sells a Pertronix-made unit: http://www.harpermoto.com/harpers-high-output-electronic-ignition.html . Less reliable than points in my experience. YMMV.
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Thanks for the "Welcome" and the information. Charlie, I believe that you have put me on the correct track for where I want to be.
Thankf for all of your assistance.
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If anyone else is interested, ALL Drag Specialties / Parts Unlimited dealers can get the Dyna III Hi-Performance Electronic Ignition for you. The part number is D37-1 and the SRP is $224.95.
This unit fits all 1974 - 1987 750cc and larger with dual point distributors.
The unit that I installed in my customer's Guzzi works great. Hope this helps other out.
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Make sure the customer understands the importance of keeping a good battery up to the Dyna. They are reliable but if the battery voltage is allowed to drop they can get spiked when the motor starts. Usually its the left hand side circuit that goes from memory?
Personally I nowadays prefer points. The twin point system is very easy and stone axe reliable as long as the points heel is greased from time to time.
OOMV
Pete
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Make sure the customer understands the importance of keeping a good battery up to the Dyna. They are reliable but if the battery voltage is allowed to drop they can get spiked when the motor starts. Usually its the left hand side circuit that goes from memory?
Personally I nowadays prefer points. The twin point system is very easy and stone axe reliable as long as the points heel is greased from time to time.
OOMV
Pete
That's interesting Pete, what happens when they spike ?
I've got an LM 3 here with Dyna has intermittent 1 cylinder drop out for owner, will not do it for me, not certain if I've fixed it or problem waiting for owner.
He is a FIFO rock doctor--bike gets left for months, flat battery certainly an issue with him. Possible it only does it with low battery, heals when charged / replaced ?
Twin points the most reliable ignition for sure, you can set them up perfectly and they last indefinitely, what's not to like ?
They even provided a felt wick to oil, 2 squirts from an oil can once a year, hardly a major chore.
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That's interesting Pete, what happens when they spike ?
I've got an LM 3 here with Dyna has intermittent 1 cylinder drop out for owner, will not do it for me, not certain if I've fixed it or problem waiting for owner.
He is a FIFO rock doctor--bike gets left for months, flat battery certainly an issue with him. Possible it only does it with low battery, heals when charged / replaced ?
Twin points the most reliable ignition for sure, you can set them up perfectly and they last indefinitely, what's not to like ?
They even provided a felt wick to oil, 2 squirts from an oil can once a year, hardly a major chore.
Some times you'll get an intermittent drop out for a while but it usually becomes terminal after a short period of time. Leaving the ignition on for any length of time will cook the coils too, even if you use 5 ohm ones. The dyna system essentially energises them permanently apart from the very short interval they are turned off to collapse the field so even when the engine is running they get much hotter than a points triggered system.
Pete
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adding jumper cables to a bike with the ignition on can spike it as well. after my dyna failed while I was on vacation, I am a points man again. this is after running dyna for 30 years and staunchly defending them against all negative press... if you run them, carry a set of points.
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I've installed Dyna systems on my personal bikes as well as customer bikes over the years. On Tonti-frame Guzzis, the Dyna system works famously and I found it to be a great upgrade over the dual point setups.
There will be people who will argue for points on EVERYTHING; note I've distinguished the Tonti frame Guzzis here. Points are fine on an Eldo where you can get to them without taking the gas tank off, AND they are single points. On Tonti-era bikes, Guzzi buried the points down in the V Valley, plus the dual point setup ofter required tedious filing of the points plates to get the timing just right on both sides.
Guzziology has an excellent writeup on this topic if you want another opinion, but I've been down this road enough to feel pretty confident this is the way to go.
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Does the 850 T3 electronic setup work for the 73' V7 Sport 750 motor / dustributor as well?
Thanks
Jim
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Does the 850 T3 electronic setup work for the 73' V7 Sport 750 motor / dustributor as well?
Thanks
Jim
Yes, all Tontis with dual-point timers. I have a used one that I'm selling for a customer.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?action=classifieds;sa=view;id=1305
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Thanks Charlie!
Jim
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I have been thinking about trying one of these for year, but never pulled the trigger. What is the advantage of this or the Dyna over the other?
http://www.jefferies-au.org/MyECU/MyIgn.html
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I've installed Dyna systems on my personal bikes as well as customer bikes over the years. On Tonti-frame Guzzis, the Dyna system works famously and I found it to be a great upgrade over the dual point setups.
There will be people who will argue for points on EVERYTHING; note I've distinguished the Tonti frame Guzzis here. Points are fine on an Eldo where you can get to them without taking the gas tank off, AND they are single points. On Tonti-era bikes, Guzzi buried the points down in the V Valley, plus the dual point setup ofter required tedious filing of the points plates to get the timing just right on both sides.
Guzziology has an excellent writeup on this topic if you want another opinion, but I've been down this road enough to feel pretty confident this is the way to go.
Actually the twin cb housing is in exactly the same position as the distributor was, it's the chassis that's different.
the advantage of twin points is in getting both sides perfect, requires a little skill but only like being able to time two singles. I just alter gaps, no filing.
3 dizzy V12 Ferraris are a little trickier but is not a daily task, once all mechanics could set ignition timing, lost art perhaps ?
To each his own, but one day when all the black boxes have gone west from "spiking" or whatever, Tonti contact breaker users will smile politely and raise one licked finger
adding jumper cables to a bike with the ignition on can spike it as well. after my dyna failed while I was on vacation, I am a points man again. this is after running dyna for 30 years and staunchly defending them against all negative press... if you run them, carry a set of points.
welcome back mtliberio, you're not the only one, I've refitted a few now, guess the dyna on mk3 LM on my bench is going in the bin too, hard to trust it
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Actually the twin cb housing is in exactly the same position as the distributor was, it's the chassis that's different.
the advantage of twin points is in getting both sides perfect, requires a little skill but only like being able to time two singles. I just alter gaps, no filing.
Single point distributor, (And cam gear obviously.) are different between the two points systems but I'm wholly in agreement about the points plate filing. I've never found it necessary, just set it up by gap. As long as there is sufficient dwell for the coil to make a fat enough spark to light the fire all the way to red-line who gives a shit if the gaps are the same? Nice thing is that as the points heel wears, and they do eventually, all you do is open them up again until the timing is correct and you can go again.
In my experience as long as you throw a new pair of condensors at the system every now and again the points faces will last pretty much forever. Eventually the heels wear down but it takes a very long time if they are lubed.
Pete
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Is it possible to put the "real" distributor on a Tonti engine, or is the camshaft different?
On Dyna coil temps-I can rest my hand on the coils of my bike with Dyna and standard Tonti coils. I was surprised. Not all that hot at all.
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Single point distributor, (And cam gear obviously.) are different between the two points systems but I'm wholly in agreement about the points plate filing. I've never found it necessary, just set it up by gap. As long as there is sufficient dwell for the coil to make a fat enough spark to light the fire all the way to red-line who gives a shit if the gaps are the same? Nice thing is that as the points heel wears, and they do eventually, all you do is open them up again until the timing is correct and you can go again.
In my experience as long as you throw a new pair of condensors at the system every now and again the points faces will last pretty much forever. Eventually the heels wear down but it takes a very long time if they are lubed.
Pete
couldn't swear to it but think my condensors are the ones that came on the bike in 78, I did have one come loose once soon after, cleaned and loctited on, problem gone.
Won't change them if they don't fail
ditto heel, if my gap changes by .001", I abuse myself for being slack with maintenance. Can't remember last time that happened and I only lube wick around 10K miles at same time as fuel filter clean, tank comes off for this anyway. Only time it ever does.
But we did have some Facet points once that were crap, they broke in half on some customer bikes, I should never have changed from the orig Marelli ones.
I had to refit them as warranty anyway
Anyone buying points ONLY use OE Marelli ones (written on them)
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You can fit a single point dizzy to a Tonti or a twin point to a loop by swapping the shaft gear. Any cam with a Tacho drive won't fit in a loop I don't think? Charlie will correct me I'm sure if I'm wrong?
Pete
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You can fit a single point dizzy to a Tonti or a twin point to a loop by swapping the shaft gear. Any cam with a Tacho drive won't fit in a loop I don't think? Charlie will correct me I'm sure if I'm wrong?
Pete
You're correct. You can use a Loop dizzy in a Tonti engine with a swap o' the gear and vice versa. Tonti gear on a Loop dizzy prevents you from pulling just the dizzy out for work - the dizzy and it's "base" both have to come out as a unit since the Tonti gear is larger diameter.
Cams with a tach drive will need to have the drive bit removed.
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One thing electronic ignition can do that points can't is idle stabilization.
Notice the graphs shape near idle for the Boyer & TriSpark.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8377/8483536401_f8dbe16937_n.jpg)
http://www.accessnorton.com/commando-timing-advance-curves-compiled-reva-t6488.html (http://www.accessnorton.com/commando-timing-advance-curves-compiled-reva-t6488.html)
I'm pretty sure Guzzi used it with the 15m and probably other ECMs before the stepper motors to control the idle.
To bad it doesn't appear dyna or the other electronic units available for Guzzi's use idle stabilization.
It's a simple idea, advance the timing below the target idle speed & retard it above.
Anyone that has timed a distributor by ear knows as you slowly advance the timing the idle speed increases to a point. And vice versa.
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One thing electronic ignition can do that points can't is idle stabilization.
To bad it doesn't appear dyna or the other electronic units available for Guzzi's use idle stabilization.
maybe why I like points and carbs, setting the idle is done with minor adjustments, stabil is the word, sub 900 rpm, yes, I know yanks don't like low idle, I do.
Only thing that'd make my Guzzi idle unstable is extreme heat and I'd rather kill the engine than fix that.
Without water cooling and a fan I don't think it can be done
Pete's story of 8V with EFI and IE that melted itself idling the proof of that. No air flow on air cooled engine !
Idle stabilized itself to destruction, do you consider that a good thing ? Wasn't idiot proof.
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while you can run a single point dizzy in a "tonti" motor, I wonder if the single point dizzy (cap actually) wouldn't hit the tank if fitted in a tonti frame...
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while you can run a single point dizzy in a "tonti" motor, I wonder if the single point dizzy (cap actually) wouldn't hit the tank if fitted in a tonti frame...
Yep. Maybe the frame too?
http://www.antietamclassiccycle.com/v7_sport_restoration/V7_Sport_01042011_002.JPG
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I like the dyna on my mk2 because I still have the side fairings and its damn near impossible to do anything with them in place - I like fit and forget...
'says paul who is now worried that his timing is off (it isnt) and has an odd desire to check it!"
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Joe, I called you tonight & left a message at your shop. We have a new Moto Guzzi ignition kit that uses dual light beams to track crank/cam position and trigger coil saturation and spark trigger. It's the only full rpm multi spark ignition that i know of in the world. You might be done with your customers restoration but wanted to see if we could help offer a new option besides the mediocre hall effect ignitions we've all been stuck with until now.
We have Ace Mallott testing one right now to help us fine tune ignition curves if necessary. The mounting adapters are in stock and we will be shipping the first ones very soon!
www.c5ignitions.com if you want to read more about the technology. We do not have them for sale on our website yet but contact us if you have further technical questions.
Paul
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I was doing some searching a year or so ago.
I found this company http://www.powerarc.com/ids/development.htm (http://www.powerarc.com/ids/development.htm) They don't list a Guzzi ignition kit on their site currently. If I remember correctly, the Guzzi dual point replacement had been developed and some units had been installed in customer bikes. I inquired by email. To my surprise I got a phone call from someone there who was very helpful & knowledgeable about the product line. It may have been the owner or lead engineer. I was impressed overall. No experience with the product yet..
There are these guys who offer an alternative for Guzzi point igniions http://www.cajinnovations.com/MyECU/index.htm (http://www.cajinnovations.com/MyECU/index.htm) Don't know much about them.
This German Company http://www.silent-hektik.com/MG_Bosch.htm (http://www.silent-hektik.com/MG_Bosch.htm) looks to have some high quality offering, although they all seem to be drive by pulse wheels mounted to the crankshaft. I don't speak German, so it's hard for me to tell much
No affiliation with any of these co,panies. Just sharing what I found.
Matt
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Joe, I called you tonight & left a message at your shop. We have a new Moto Guzzi ignition kit that uses dual light beams to track crank/cam position and trigger coil saturation and spark trigger. It's the only full rpm multi spark ignition that i know of in the world. You might be done with your customers restoration but wanted to see if we could help offer a new option besides the mediocre hall effect ignitions we've all been stuck with until now.
We have Ace Mallott testing one right now to help us fine tune ignition curves if necessary. The mounting adapters are in stock and we will be shipping the first ones very soon!
www.c5ignitions.com if you want to read more about the technology. We do not have them for sale on our website yet but contact us if you have further technical questions.
Paul
Paul, I just visited your web site, very interesting stuff. I'm doing a few early 70s restorations and customs. Always looking for new goodies. I bookmarked your page and will be contacting you soon. Does the Guzzi kit include coils?
Joe (different Joe than madness MC)
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Turns out I posted about the PowerArc ignitions the day I talked to them. Her are some photos of an installed unit and a video of one on a bike running.
https://picasaweb.google.com/111067627485055009519/MotoGuzziPowerArc# (https://picasaweb.google.com/111067627485055009519/MotoGuzziPowerArc#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-lkhk0cDrs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-lkhk0cDrs)
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I was doing some searching a year or so ago.
I found this company http://www.powerarc.com/ids/development.htm (http://www.powerarc.com/ids/development.htm) They don't list a Guzzi ignition kit on their site currently. If I remember correctly, the Guzzi dual point replacement had been developed and some units had been installed in customer bikes. I inquired by email. To my surprise I got a phone call from someone there who was very helpful & knowledgeable about the product line. It may have been the owner or lead engineer. I was impressed overall. No experience with the product yet..
There are these guys who offer an alternative for Guzzi point igniions http://www.cajinnovations.com/MyECU/index.htm (http://www.cajinnovations.com/MyECU/index.htm) Don't know much about them.
This German Company http://www.silent-hektik.com/MG_Bosch.htm (http://www.silent-hektik.com/MG_Bosch.htm) looks to have some high quality offering, although they all seem to be drive by pulse wheels mounted to the crankshaft. I don't speak German, so it's hard for me to tell much
No affiliation with any of these co,panies. Just sharing what I found.
Matt
I am working with Paul at Power Arc to refine the ignition curves for my heavily loaded 76 Convert. Over the years I have used Dyna ignitions in my Guzzi's and older Goldwings. They were a great upgrade at the time. I put a lot of miles on my bikes. I think the longest a Dyna lasted was a little over two years. I don't remember where I was the last time one failed in my Guzzi but the one in my 78 Goldwing failed starting up the north side of the Grapevine in Southern California. At that time I decided I wasn't in to carrying the old points and tools with me to change on the side of the road the next time one failed so I went back to points.
Recently I was contacted by a friend that is an old GL guru and told about the C5 ignitions. He was helping to develop a version for the GL's which they have completed with amazing success. To make a long story short I now have one in my Convert.
The first time I started the bike after installation I was suprised how fast it started and seemed content to idle without the chokes on. Also, as it warmed up I had to turn the idle down some. Of course playing with a new product I had to see how far I could turn the idle down. I have not seen the charge light with the bike running since I installed the Duralast alternator. Now I was able to slow the idle until the light came on and my sidecar equipped Convert was not trying to run away. Of course this was too low to leave like that but it showed how much better the new ignition was working. The thing here is a more complete burn of the fuel. This system fires three times instead of only once at all RPM.
Obviously I am very happy with this ignition and could turn this into a long post talking about it. I have received amazing support from Paul at C5 refining the ignition curves. It comes with four different curves installed and can be switched from one to the other easily. While these ignitions are new to the Guzzi scene the bonus is that they are not new to motorcycles. Turns out one well know Norton shop here has been using them for a long time. They can supply models for Harley back to the thirties. Where c5 comes in is the development of versions for other bikes, cars, snowmobiles and on and on.
I have over 100,000 miles on my Convert pulling a sidecar. They work quite well in the snow.LOL Recently I have been considering putting a five speed in it to improve performance some. Yesterday I was doing a test ride (any excuse for a ride) and found myself grinning. For the first time in years the bike was performing closer to how I always thought it should. I bought this one from BJ a long time ago and his work with the transmission has kept it going without problems other than over time it seemed to be down on power. Now it's back with more to come. Paul is making up a new set of ignition curves (yes it's programmable ) just to suit my use of the bike hauling a heavy sidecar. Now, back to getting the valves adjusted. >:(
More info at c5performance.info
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I wanted to clarify a few things. We own C5 Performance Inc and develop ignition kits for all types of vehicles, even cars. PowerArc is the company who invented and manufactures the coils and ignition modules. It is a great relationship but we are seperate companies.
Because we feel this ignition is so far ahead of what has been available that C5 ignitions only use electronics from PowerArc. We are always working on new projects and older Guzzis are one of them.
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Be afraid, be very afraid, points are very unreliable, I am on my second set now in 36 years. And it is such a chore to dab a spot of grease of your choice behind the wear fibre every couple of years. And then there is the additional expense of having to purchase a toothpick to put the grease there. Never seen the need for a dyna at this point.
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C5,Power Arc offers multi spark ignitions for the older Triumphs ? I assume the system goes to single spark at higher RPM's? What I'm interested in is an ignition that can drive a low resistance coil.I run a Pazon on my race Triumph and it's a good system but only allows a 3 ohm coil.Not enough energy to open up the plug gap wider than .025 without misfiring at high RPM's.I would really like to experiment with a wider plug gap..
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C5,Power Arc offers multi spark ignitions for the older Triumphs ? I assume the system goes to single spark at higher RPM's? What I'm interested in is an ignition that can drive a low resistance coil.I run a Pazon on my race Triumph and it's a good system but only allows a 3 ohm coil.Not enough energy to open up the plug gap wider than .025 without misfiring at high RPM's.I would really like to experiment with a wider plug gap..
Some info here using an automotive set up
http://forum.guzzitech.com/forum/197/9625?p=72540&hilit=chrysler#p72540
Edit to add
The Chrysler powered Sport
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8NuRFhO_ik
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There are a couple of new units on ebay right now.
As for the intermittent one cylinder dropping out I would have the black box checked. I had the same problem and sent the unit back to Dyna. They set it up on the bench and had to run the unit until hot to get to act up.
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C5,Power Arc offers multi spark ignitions for the older Triumphs ? I assume the system goes to single spark at higher RPM's? What I'm interested in is an ignition that can drive a low resistance coil.I run a Pazon on my race Triumph and it's a good system but only allows a 3 ohm coil.Not enough energy to open up the plug gap wider than .025 without misfiring at high RPM's.I would really like to experiment with a wider plug gap..
NOOOOO...our ignitions never shut multi spark off. We are the only ones that I know of with technology that allows full rpm multiple sparking.
We have sold many ignitions for British bikes, and in two weeks I am going to the Bonneville Salt Flats to help with a supercharged Triumph.
PowerArc has sold thousands and thousands of ignitions over the past 15-20 years.
Our role is to provide new development for this technology, to provide technical assistance for customers, and to be PowerArcs new global distributor. We already have new dealers in Norway, UK, and many here in the USA. If you have specific questions about any project I encourage you to call or email me. I'd love to help out. 920-810-0946 paul@c5ignitions (dot) com
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Be afraid, be very afraid, points are very unreliable, I am on my second set now in 36 years. And it is such a chore to dab a spot of grease of your choice behind the wear fibre every couple of years. And then there is the additional expense of having to purchase a toothpick to put the grease there. Never seen the need for a dyna at this point.
I noticed a hint of sarcasm ;D
You will probably love what I am going to say: I LIKE POINTS.
They usually don't just fail, meaning you could limp home. They are cheap, require minimum labor to keep clean and adjusted, and I've never hated them.
So why did I start a company that develops and sells electronic ignitions?
The modern battery/coil/points system was brought main stream in 1910 on the Cadillac car. That's OLD technology at best.
Less and less mechanics and riders really know how to clean and adjust points for maximum performance and reliability.
Fuel has changed drastically...I do not believe stock coils with points can effectively burn these modern mixes.
I would argue that coils fail much more frequently than points do, but MOST mechanics do not properly troubleshoot this issue.
You don't run points in your car, you don't use a TV with a dial (although they never failed), and you don't use a rotary phone.
I have seen many Hall Effect style electronic ignitions fail, but I've got some great information as to why, and also why optical ignitions dont.
Here are a few BIG advantages the guys in Iowa (PowerArc) have given us for our new C5 Performance ignitions:
Optically triggered ignitions are not affected by heat, surrounding metal components, or the inherent inaccuracy that magnetic systems have.
Section Bobbin coils are the strongest, quickest refreshing coils made. We only use section bobbin designs.
Accurate coil saturation is critical, and they track rotation 90 times more than a standard ignition to keep coils from overheating.
Multiple Sparking is awesome. It helps starting, smooths out idle, increases performance and efficiency, and our kits continue multi sparking until redline.
IF....and this is a big IF....you choose to upgrade your points operated ignition to something newer that never needs adjustment, then take the time and learn about the key points of each design (Hall effect versus Optical) and understand how big of an advantage multi sparking is. I have many customers who are waiting for an invitation to share their story, if anyone wants to hear them?
Thank you for sharing your opinion in a funny way...i loved the way you stated that :) Point taken sir!
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Be afraid, be very afraid, points are very unreliable, I am on my second set now in 36 years. And it is such a chore to dab a spot of grease of your choice behind the wear fibre every couple of years. And then there is the additional expense of having to purchase a toothpick to put the grease there. Never seen the need for a dyna at this point.
Many years ago when I was replacing that god awful Motoplat electronic ignition for a Dyna Joe Eish said the same thing to me. I needed a used distributor to put the Dyna in as the Motoplat would not accept the Dyna. Joe said just drop the points distributor in, time it and let it go until it stops. He laughed and said he has not touched his points in 70,000 miles. I should have listen to him as Dyna has been VERY unreliable. 3 coils dead and one black box/ECU/CDI or whatever you call it also shot. I had it set up to do a turn key drop the points in system but I have had the Dyna apart so many times I think my wiring harness i made for the change over will need modifying to put the points in.
I would highly suggest staying away from Dyna. I have heard and had my share of horror stories.
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Many of you are aware that I really appreciate "modern" electronics. But, if I had a Guzzi that came from the factory with points that's exactly what I would leave in it. As has been said above, points are as reliable as a stone axe. Once set up, they survive the harshest of conditions for years with very little maintenance.
If the goal is a bike that starts and runs well time-after-time then a points setup is the ticket for an older Guzzi. If you just want to tinker with "new stuff," then go electronic ignition. But don't throw your old points set up away - you're likely to need it at some point. And by all means keep your battery in good condition; if you need to charge the battery consider doing it off the bike.
IMHO.
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I noticed a hint of sarcasm ;D
You will probably love what I am going to say: I LIKE POINTS.
They usually don't just fail, meaning you could limp home. They are cheap, require minimum labor to keep clean and adjusted, and I've never hated them.
So why did I start a company that develops and sells electronic ignitions?
The modern battery/coil/points system was brought main stream in 1910 on the Cadillac car. That's OLD technology at best.
Less and less mechanics and riders really know how to clean and adjust points for maximum performance and reliability.
Fuel has changed drastically...I do not believe stock coils with points can effectively burn these modern mixes.
I would argue that coils fail much more frequently than points do, but MOST mechanics do not properly troubleshoot this issue.
You don't run points in your car, you don't use a TV with a dial (although they never failed), and you don't use a rotary phone.
I have seen many Hall Effect style electronic ignitions fail, but I've got some great information as to why, and also why optical ignitions dont.
Here are a few BIG advantages the guys in Iowa (PowerArc) have given us for our new C5 Performance ignitions:
Optically triggered ignitions are not affected by heat, surrounding metal components, or the inherent inaccuracy that magnetic systems have.
Section Bobbin coils are the strongest, quickest refreshing coils made. We only use section bobbin designs.
Accurate coil saturation is critical, and they track rotation 90 times more than a standard ignition to keep coils from overheating.
Multiple Sparking is awesome. It helps starting, smooths out idle, increases performance and efficiency, and our kits continue multi sparking until redline.
IF....and this is a big IF....you choose to upgrade your points operated ignition to something newer that never needs adjustment, then take the time and learn about the key points of each design (Hall effect versus Optical) and understand how big of an advantage multi sparking is. I have many customers who are waiting for an invitation to share their story, if anyone wants to hear them?
Thank you for sharing your opinion in a funny way...i loved the way you stated that :) Point taken sir!
How forgiving of low voltage is your system? As pointed out elsewhere, Dynas like full V. Points seem to be able to run on a glimmer. I assume your system is weighted a little more to full V?
Problem is these damn AGM batteries, when they fail, they really crap, points or not you're sunk.
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With no modifications you can safely run a 12 volt down to around 6 volts. If you need a system for a 6 volt car or cycle we make changes that allow you to get lower. On the other end, its got spike protection for 25 volts.
The biggest killer of any electronic ignitions is not low voltage. It's a pulsing of voltage from faulty ignition and kill switches or poor wiring.
The best protection for that is a capacitor. Let me know if you have special issues or questions. We'll do the best we can to overcome them!
Let me ask you guys this...what usually causes issues on Guzzi's when using electronic ignitions?
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Be afraid, be very afraid, points are very unreliable, I am on my second set now in 36 years. And it is such a chore to dab a spot of grease of your choice behind the wear fibre every couple of years. And then there is the additional expense of having to purchase a toothpick to put the grease there. Never seen the need for a dyna at this point.
I find it interesting when one attempts to share an experience they have had with a product, good or bad, some people have to jump in and criticize or make some comments to try and show how what they do is better even though the person posting the original message was in no way saying anything bad about their choice or any other option. Case in point. My post in no way made any criticism of using points. In fact, I said I had gone back to points after failures left me stranded too many times. Others have made known how great Dyna was at helping them when a problem occurred, and I agree. They do. Problem is, I travel with my bikes and I don't mean those long 500 mile trips. That is the first day! I don't want to be left broken down on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere. And yes, I can fix my own bikes usually on the side of the road like BJ used to do, well, not as quickly ::), but that is not a part of my travel plans. Again, that is why I went back to points!
That said, (now I feel better ;D) there are many reliable ways to make ignitions work. I have probably tried most of them and I can tell you this, none of them have given me the engine performance I have now. Quicker starting, better idle and a real noticeable difference in power and throttle response and a grin on my face every time I ride it. Only time will tell but with the multi sparking (at all RPM) I suspect mileage will also increase. Engine vibration has also diminished to a much more pleasant level. I believe this may be due to the fact I am not trying to get two sets of points to work together on opposite cylinders. Oh yeah, and no black box, advance weights/springs or points to set. As for reliability this is not a "new" product. With over 15,000 units sold to HD's over the years as well as other bikes, it is a proven product. Just the application is new. I just discovered a well know Norton specialist in my area has been installing these for some time.
Well, tonights project is to start the quest to check/adjust my timing chain tension. That's always fun! I put a new chain and automatic tensioner in my other convert last year. Don't think I'll use an endless chain next time. I did it ok but I find as I get older my patience is not what it once was. Does it show?LOL
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I'll give you some information generic to all electronic ignitions. In fact, it is accurate for every ignition including ours:
Key points to avoiding failure is HEAT reduction (coil saturation control) and the quality of the trigger (points, magnets, or optical reader).
Points actually have good saturation control because the lobe determines dwell. The downside is BY DESIGN coil saturation is excessive at low rpm to avoid coil misfire at high rpm. Think of it as leaving the bathtub water on so long it overflows, just to avoid not having enough water to take a bath.
Most electronic ignitions have horrible dwell control. With one or two magnets, there is no way for the ignition to know where the crank position is. How does it know when to turn the coil on so it starts to fill? It is a total guess. As a result, the ignition companies using Hall Effect sensors leave the coil on for a very long time so there is no misfire at high rpm. The coils get too hot and short out, especially if you drive at low rpm alot. When you see a coil with the metal bar running through it, this is called an "I" core design. It mounts to the frame so heat is drawn away from the coil to help cool it.
Section Bobbin coils are the strongest and quickest filling coils, but they can't handle any heat. So if the "I" core style coils fail from overheating, why use a design that handles even LESS heat? PowerArc ignitions have unique ways to manage dwell control. You notice all the slots in our encoder? As the crank or cam rotates, this wheel continuously tracks crank position using dual optic beams. Now we can turn on the coil EXACTLY when we want. It's also easily adjusted with our programmer kit.
Remember: Heat kills coils, dwell control is key to reducing coil heat, and you cannot accurately control dwell using one or two magnets. You have to think outside the box.
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What are you thoughts on CDI?
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What are you thoughts on CDI?
On a Guzzi you have one coil for every two crankshaft revolutions. In an automotive vehicle you have one coil (to fire) for every 16 crankshaft revolutions. So you can see that the time for coil saturation in an automotive application is much more critical than in a two cylinder engine with two independent ignition systems. In other words the Guzzi coil at 10,000 RPM would fire 5000 times in 1 min. or 83 times each second.
In the automotive application it would be eight times as much or 664 firings per second. This means coil saturation or a full spark would be tougher to generate with eight cylinders as opposed to essentially one on the Guzzi. So a CDI with the much higher voltage is more applicable to an automotive application and high rpm to obtain more complete coil saturation. Drag racing would be a good application. CDI in a Guzzi would be superfluous and in fact problematic since you would need coil wires to contain the higher voltage. Any leak would result in misfires.
I had a CDI in an old Oldsmobile and the spark would jump about 4 inches. It was useless for street application since the spark would always eat through the core wires somewhere and short out.
I use automotive coils on my V7 sport and even at that I have to tame down the spark with a ballast resistor because otherwise the coil wires cannot contain the spark since coil saturation occurs easily and the bike redlines at only 7,000 RPM. Now my Yamaha with an 11,000 redline has CDI.
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On a Guzzi you have one coil for every two crankshaft revolutions. In an automotive vehicle you have one coil (to fire) for every 16 crankshaft revolutions. So you can see that the time for coil saturation in an automotive application is much more critical than in a two cylinder engine with two independent ignition systems. In other words the Guzzi coil at 10,000 RPM would fire 5000 times in 1 min. or 83 times each second.
In the automotive application it would be eight times as much or 664 firings per second. This means coil saturation or a full spark would be tougher to generate with eight cylinders as opposed to essentially one on the Guzzi. So a CDI with the much higher voltage is more applicable to an automotive application and high rpm to obtain more complete coil saturation. Drag racing would be a good application. CDI in a Guzzi would be superfluous and in fact problematic since you would need coil wires to contain the higher voltage. Any leak would result in misfires.
I had a CDI in an old Oldsmobile and the spark would jump about 4 inches. It was useless for street application since the spark would always eat through the core wires somewhere and short out.
I use automotive coils on my V7 sport and even at that I have to tame down the spark with a ballast resistor because otherwise the coil wires cannot contain the spark since coil saturation occurs easily and the bike redlines at only 7,000 RPM. Now my Yamaha with an 11,000 redline has CDI.
One of the first mods I did back in 73 on my Ducati 750 GT was put in a pair of massive Chevy coils+ large condensers. I strapped them to the outside frame and they worked very well compared to the tinnie winnie stock Ducati coils.
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Interesting information. Has anyone had "personal" experience with waste sparking these? I have been asked if it works good, and have heard different opinions from Guzzi shops.
Am I to assume most electronic conversions use stock OEM coils?
Thanks for sharing information about these bikes. I have learned alot already!
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Your probably aware already, the Dyna III is typically installed as a retrofit using the stock coils.
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On a Guzzi you have one coil for every two crankshaft revolutions. In an automotive vehicle you have one coil (to fire) for every 16 crankshaft revolutions. So you can see that the time for coil saturation in an automotive application is much more critical than in a two cylinder engine with two independent ignition systems. In other words the Guzzi coil at 10,000 RPM would fire 5000 times in 1 min. or 83 times each second.
In the automotive application it would be eight times as much or 664 firings per second. This means coil saturation or a full spark would be tougher to generate with eight cylinders as opposed to essentially one on the Guzzi. So a CDI with the much higher voltage is more applicable to an automotive application and high rpm to obtain more complete coil saturation. Drag racing would be a good application. CDI in a Guzzi would be superfluous and in fact problematic since you would need coil wires to contain the higher voltage. Any leak would result in misfires.
I had a CDI in an old Oldsmobile and the spark would jump about 4 inches. It was useless for street application since the spark would always eat through the core wires somewhere and short out.
I use automotive coils on my V7 sport and even at that I have to tame down the spark with a ballast resistor because otherwise the coil wires cannot contain the spark since coil saturation occurs easily and the bike redlines at only 7,000 RPM. Now my Yamaha with an 11,000 redline has CDI.
I have a few comments on what you say. CDI has a very short spark duration. That's why many of them use multiple sparks,especially at lower RPM's...I ran multi spark CDI boxes on high performance auto engines and never ate up wires. No matter what often unreal claims about high voltage coils, if you watch the spark of a running engine on a scope,the voltage to fire clean plugs in a non supercharged engine is less than 10k volts. The plug life can be shorter on a multispark system.
A 12 volt coil ignition gives best point life at 3-4 ohm primary coil resistance. Using less resistance will burn up the points quickly due to the coil drawing excessive current. As far as too much the spark.... plug wires can't contain the spark? Must be very inferior wires. . In fact back before electronic ignitions many drag racers ran low resistance coils to give more spark because point life wasn't a concern.
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Interesting information. Has anyone had "personal" experience with waste sparking these? I have been asked if it works good, and have heard different opinions from Guzzi shops.
Am I to assume most electronic conversions use stock OEM coils?
Thanks for sharing information about these bikes. I have learned alot already!
I have tried various combinations such as two pickup coils and one control box and vice versa one coil and two. The best combination used a Harley coil. The problem with the wasted spark at least on a V7 sport is that one wasted spark is on an intake stroke. I found that at the higher RPMs six or 7000 I could feel some breakup. At the lower RPMs it ran fine. This might be a quirk of the V7 sport because of the cam overlap so I don't know how the application would work on other models. Ultimately I went back to two independent ignition systems. This way if even a control box goes bad I still have half the engine to get home.
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How much is the set up for a tonti guzzi from C5?
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The C5 that I put in my Convert is $492. This includes much higher quality replacement coils and plug wires. The part I'm still having trouble describing to people is the way the bike works now. With a high end ignition I expected it to run and idle better. Was even expecting it to start a little quicker although that has never been a real problem with mine. Sometimes a little squirt from the accelerator pumps and hit the button one more time and it was running. I always had to leave the chokes on for a couple minutes to eliminate the sput and pop during warm up but overall I never thought of it as bad. Now it is like I bought a new bike. One touch of the starter and it is running. On a cold day I can start it, pull out to the end of the driveway and shut the chokes off for a nice steady idle. I can pull out into traffic confident it will not do anything wrong.
Ever since I have owned the bike, about 76,000 miles worth, I have felt I needed to be gentle on the throttle for the first ten or twenty feet to give the torque converter time to tighten up. Not any more. Turn the throttle and go. Where I used to occasionally glance at the speedometer to be sure my speed had not dropped off it is now the opposite. Now I am constantly having to drop my speed slightly to be back at the speed limit. This is one of the things that has put the fun back in riding my bike. I am constantly finding myself grinning at the way it responds to the throttle. Of course the old Convert with the big sidecar and dressed to tour will never be a sport bike but the difference in performance is something I was not expecting to be so great. Actually I did not believe what the result would be until I installed the ignition and rode the bike.
The other thing is the ease of installation and setting the timing. Gone is the need to worry about aligning the distributor gears when installing it. I installed my C5 in a spare distributor first. I actually installed the new coils and plug wires first and used them with the original distributor and points so when it came time to install the C5 distributor I just unbolted and removed the old distributor complete with weights, springs and points plates. Next I dropped the C5 distributor in and tightened it down and ran the wires to power, ground and the coils. Then I put the left cylinder to TDC and turned the ignition on. Next I rotated the encoder wheel until the small red LED on the unit lit up and locked the wheel down. Timing done! Install the distributor cap and start it.
I had to play a little with the carb and idle adjustments and went riding. No timing lights, no rotating the engine to find the right cylinder timing marks and more trying to get the two sides in sync. And on top of that I have four different curves built in that can be accessed simply by various combinations of two ground wires. Actually I now have it on a neat rotary switch that allows me to change curves at will on the go. This thing is more fun than my video games. LOL
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Be afraid, be very afraid, points are very unreliable, I am on my second set now in 36 years. And it is such a chore to dab a spot of grease of your choice behind the wear fibre every couple of years. And then there is the additional expense of having to purchase a toothpick to put the grease there. Never seen the need for a dyna at this point.
Indeed. I needed to replace the MotoSplatt in my 91 SP III, dropped in a points dizzy from a CAL II and never looked back. Adjusted it once a year (gap & lube, then set timing with lite at full advance) in the winter same time I did the valves and changed oil.
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The Cali II points swap would work on any motoplat ignition bike then including small blocks?
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The Cali II points swap would work on any motoplat ignition bike then including small blocks?
Big block distributors do not fit in small block Guzzis. Am I correct guys??
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Big block distributors do not fit in small block Guzzis. Am I correct guys??
That would be correct. The small block normally benefits from installing the Dyna S, which is a different animal.. no black box. Seems reliable enough. I use the Dyna S as a secondary ignition on a homebuilt aircraft. <shrug>
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That would be correct. The small block normally benefits from installing the Dyna S, which is a different animal.. no black box. Seems reliable enough. I use the Dyna S as a secondary ignition on a homebuilt aircraft. <shrug>
Good point! While the big block points set up is quite good - IME the small blocks benefit greatly from a Dyna S. It's just an electronic trigger, like a petronix you might stick in an air cooled VW. I use a slightly modified Dyna S meant for a Honda 750 in my Laverda SF.
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I love points and would like to buy a set for my V65SP
Not just the points, but the mounting plate as well. My sad cafe racer project bike arrived with a Dyna S and I would love to replace it with ... the original mechanical points.
Might some one here have a the old points, condensers, and mounting plate laying around, and care to part with them?
I have the mechanical advance system, just need the bits above the bob weights.
Ciao,
Dick
Vashon Island, WA
USA
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The C5 that I put in my Convert is $492. This includes much higher quality replacement coils and plug wires.
The system you describe sounds very interesting but seems quite expensive compared to its rivals.
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The system you describe sounds very interesting but seems quite expensive compared to its rivals.
How many of us have been stranded by points. I have had 3 or 4 dyna coils go bad and one black box. I was real luck to get home. I was only 10 miles from home and the black box would die and then cool down and then restart. Now what happens if I am 200 miles from home. Yes sure Dyna was great about it but I have had way too much trouble on with this. Not as bad as the moto plat but still a piece of crap. Now that I have new coils and new black box I'll not change back to points for the moment.
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How many of us have been stranded by points. I have had 3 or 4 dyna coils go bad and one black box.
Well, er, never. But I want some of the mojo that Sparrowhawk claims his bike now has with this new C5 system. I like the logic of the multi spark and more efficient combustion it seems to provide. I just don't like the price! Call me cheap but while my bike works well enough as it is that is good money that I'd rather spend on a pair of bigger carbs or a lightened flywheel. Or more realistically pay household bills with!
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I've retro-graded a couple of MG's to points because the MotoPlat ignitions went out and the Dyna ignition set-ups that had a QC manufacturing problems. Anyone can correct me....that problem should have been fixed by now. I carry points/plate in case my Dyna in the '80 SP 1000NT goes bad.
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I've retro-graded a couple of MG's to points because the MotoPlat ignitions went out and the Dyna ignition set-ups that had a QC manufacturing problems. Anyone can correct me....that problem should have been fixed by now. I carry points/plate in case my Dyna in the '80 SP 1000NT goes bad.
I retrofitted my '90 SPIII with a points dizzy when the LH Motoplatt box went south with the plan of fitting a Dyna. But the points just worked, and it was easy to set them at the same time I did the valves (once a year in Feb wether it needed it or not!) so never bothered.
That said, after a mere 27yrs one of the Marelli coils went bad while I was on a business trip in Germany. I limped into a German junk yard, pulled another far older coil off a VW Bug, strapped it to the frame with zip ties, and went on my merry way back to Italy.
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I've put 25,000 trouble-free miles on my CX100 with points. It starts at the merest touch of the button, idles well, runs up to however close to the redline my mood warrants. That said, Sparrowhawk's enthusiastic report piques my interest. Five hundred smackers is a lot of money to replace something that already works, though. I'd love to see some documented objective comparison of the same engine with dual points set up vs. retrofitted with C5's Powerarc ignition viz. HP, torque and fuel economy numbers.
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I've put 25,000 trouble-free miles on my CX100 with points. It starts at the merest touch of the button, idles well, runs up to however close to the redline my mood warrants. That said, Sparrowhawk's enthusiastic report piques my interest. Five hundred smackers is a lot of money to replace something that already works, though. I'd love to see some documented objective comparison of the same engine with dual points set up vs. retrofitted with C5's Powerarc ignition viz. HP, torque and fuel economy numbers.
I agree. Let's come back to this convert in 10,000 miles and read all about it.
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Just a little update on my Convert hack hauler with the C5 ignition. Still working as it should after almost 9,000 miles. Yes it cost some $ but like the $500 dollar upgrade to the Enduralast alternator it is doing what I expected with no trouble. A lot of the initial ping issues I had have since been linked to other issues that I'm currently working on. Valve guides being one of them.
Just to be clear, I had no problem with just the stock points ignition. I was just looking for less maintenance and an easier way to set the timing accurately. The increase in performance was just a welcome surprise.
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Loads of discussion on the adding of a Dyna ignition system. A smart person will carry the breaker points plate with them as back-up. They did have some qc problems for a little while. One of the friends went through 3 boxes on his Cali III. I'm still on the original box but carry the points plate with me. :thumb: