Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: flatop on September 27, 2013, 06:35:43 PM
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Well here I go with another gripe about my V7 Stone, Where can I get a comfortable seat to replace the stock seat.
My pain threshold appears to be about 2hrs of saddle time then it`s time to get off and stand a while, even after placing a gel
pad over it barely makes an improvement. I read a blob on this web site that someone actually purchased a replacement gel/foam
MG seat for his bike and it didn`t help either, matter of fact he went on to say it was a rip off. Has anyone out there found a comfortable saddle for the V7 Stone?
Let me just say that the only two things that bug me about the bike are the cold start issue and the hard seat other than that I
love the bike.
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So is the stock seat on the Breva 750! When I heard the prices for replacement seats, I went with an AirHawk seat cushion instead. AirHawk is made by Roho, and cost about $200-250, whereas a custom seat costs hundreds more. I have been very satisfied with the AirHawk, once I learned to inflate it properly.
I have heard that the reason for our discomfort is the high quality of Guzzi materials. All Guzzi seats are made only of the finest Carrara marble. And if you ride on one for more than about 2 hours, your butt better be made of marble as well.
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I've had some bikes with AWFUL seats (Jackal, Sporty), and some that were excellent (B11, R1100).
I think the V7 is decent, but it cuts into my buttocks on the sides where I, uhhh, overhang a bit.
I don't know that there's an answer other than to make it wider there, but I'd be willing to try the gel seat too.
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Well, for starters I've never experienced any discomfort on my Stone seat. As in zero. Granted the longest stint I've put on it at one given time was about two hours, but compared to many other seats I've placed my bum on the V7 is far from the worst. As a direct comparison the seat on my previous "like" bike, a 2009 Bonnieville, caused me discomfort within 1/2 and hour, and downright pain at times. My wife, however, as a passenger, loved the Bonny seat and hates the Stone seat, so go figure. She actually prefers the Stone as a bike, but after 30 minutes or so she starts to get tailbone pain.
As for the gel seat, we have one at the shop for customers to try, and honestly, unless you need the lowered height, it's not worth it. It's actually uncomfortable for me.
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Marble Seat, you described it to a tee, LOL, Wonder if thats how they came up with calling it the STONE, Ha-Ha
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As for the gel seat, we have one at the shop for customers to try, and honestly, unless you need the lowered height, it's not worth it. It's actually uncomfortable for me.
I'm under the impression they have a regular height gel seat as well?
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The V7 Café seat is better, IMO. I usually want to get off any bike after an hour or so anyways though.
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The V7 Café seat is better, IMO. I usually want to get off any bike after an hour or so anyways though.
Hmm, I don't know what to make of that since I'm good on the stock seat for about 100-150 miles which, due to the low HP of the V7 (;)) is more than an hour. :D
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I've spent 8-10 hours of time traveling on both the stock Stone seat, and the lowered gel seat. I can honestly say that the lower gel seat becomes uncomfortable much quicker than the stock saddle from my experience. They also make a standard height gel seat, but haven't tried it. I also own the Cafe seat, which I find quite comforable, but have yet to go long distances with it.
Seats are a personal matter...everyone is made differently, so sometimes 'custom made' is the only solution, unless what's already out there works for you.
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Hmm, wonder how I will get on with the stock seat which is having foam removed to reduce it's height for me - might have to wear very padded trousers!! :o
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You (OP) give no indication of you height and build. It could be the bike is the wrong size! :o
Did the selling dealer do a bike fit? :bike
As well as the 4 *other saddle options from Gussi, lower foot pegs, racer foot pegs, higher or lower bars should be considered in the fit calculations.
*
Gel saddle
Lowered Gel saddle
Cafe Saddle
Racer Saddle
On a more personal note, Chaps or Kevlar? :-[
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I'm in the market for a 2 up seat for my soon-to-arrive V7R.
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We know there are many options to have a stock California seat reworked in a much improved and even good lookin way - I even liked the look better of my Neds Comfort Saddle on the Jackal I had. Has anyone seen a tasteful or attractive reworking of a V7 seat? Any pictures? Seems like the banana seats might be harder to reshape and still have it fit the lines of the bike?
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I don't think I've ever seen a reworked V7 seat.
The lines might be one reason.
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I'll have to post a pic when mine is done - I was thinking too that there can't be a lot done with it to keep the aesthetics of the bike.
Has anyone tried memory foam seats?
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Corsa makes some 'modified' seats...they don't look too different from stock, but from the pics they 'seem' more padded. Quite expensive, though. Imagine you could have an original modified for less:
(http://www.corsaitaliana.com/users/www.corsaitaliana.com/upload/DSCF2222.JPG)
(http://www.corsaitaliana.com/users/www.corsaitaliana.com/upload/DSCF1744.JPG)
http://www.corsaitaliana.com/index.php?f=data_v7_classic_&a=0
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I like my lowered gel seat better than the V7R cafe.
Go get a custom saddle done?
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A pillion Airhawk and sheepskin cover are working fairly well. As mentioned the trick is proper inflation - basically not too much air.
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I like my lowered gel seat better than the V7R cafe.
How much easier is it to put your feet on the ground?
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I had Bill Meyer rework my V7 Stone seat
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/RickFi/V7/P1000759_zpse88e0ad6.jpg) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/RickFi/media/V7/P1000759_zpse88e0ad6.jpg.html)
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/RickFi/V7/P1000760_zpsf6ff4400.jpg) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/RickFi/media/V7/P1000760_zpsf6ff4400.jpg.html)
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/RickFi/V7/P1000763_zps5cb1e922.jpg) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/RickFi/media/V7/P1000763_zps5cb1e922.jpg.html)
The new seat covering is a bit slippery compared to the stock cover and they said it takes 1000-1500 miles to really break in but after 600 miles I really like it. I did a drive in fitting so they could custom fit it but I think they could have done just as good a job with a photo of me sitting on the bike which is what they do for most seats they rework.
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Just yesterday I have been at my dealer (who was in the process of starting a tour to Mandello with some fellow Guzzisti then-lucky guy). As I also have some problems with the seat after an hour or so I asked whether a comfort seat is available. According to his online list a comfort seat is in preparation. It will be gel-filled.
I will try this seat as soon as it is in delivery state. It´s price here in Germany seems to be around 155,- Euros, which in my opinion is not too expensive.
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I have had several custom seats over the years and the various density foam saddles are more comfortable for me than the gel seats.
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I'm under the impression they have a regular height gel seat as well?
Yes, they do...and for the life of me I can't feel how it's more comfortable. But admittedly I haven't spent much time on one.
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These french guys used to have custom seats for the V7, but right now they only have a leather one. Cool but expensive:
http://www.baak-moto.fr/en/product/v7-en/v7-classic-saddle-leather-moto-guzzi-motoguzzi-vintage-brown/
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To answer the question about the Gel seat, there are both a regular and low gel seat:
Gel Seat: B063597
Lower Gel Seat: B063598
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I thought so, but the REAL QUESTION is (probably rhetorical) ARE THEY COMFORTABLE?
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I thought so, but the REAL QUESTION is (probably rhetorical) ARE THEY COMFORTABLE?
Very good question. If it is anything like the gel seat on the Breva, then, I'm sure it is.
Unfortunately, now that I've seen the red-stitched 2 up seat for the Racer, I'm going to have to buy one of those for my Racer.
But, for now, as the Tom Petty song goes, "The Waiting is the Hardest Part." I should have it in a little more than a week! :D
Now back to the seat thread..... ;-T
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I thought so, but the REAL QUESTION is (probably rhetorical) ARE THEY COMFORTABLE?
As I mentioned above, for my butt, no. No more than the stock I should say.
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And does anyone have a Gel seat they bought but are disappointed with and want to sell?
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I bought my Norge with both seats. I found the lower gel seat to be more uncomfortable than stock so personally I would be reluctant to try another MG gel seat.
Of course I should add that car seats and living room chairs also get uncomfortable for my old, skinny butt so I guess I should think about going back to moving around on all fours! ::) ::)
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I was the opposite. I bought the lowered gel seat for my Breva so Jenn could ride it, but it was so comfortable I left it on all the time and used it myself even though I didn't need the lower height.
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Corsa makes some 'modified' seats...they don't look too different from stock, but from the pics they 'seem' more padded. Quite expensive, though. Imagine you could have an original modified for less:
(http://www.corsaitaliana.com/users/www.corsaitaliana.com/upload/DSCF2222.JPG)
(http://www.corsaitaliana.com/users/www.corsaitaliana.com/upload/DSCF1744.JPG)
http://www.corsaitaliana.com/index.php?f=data_v7_classic_&a=0
Those look very nice. Hmmmmm
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Several people can redo the seat for you.
Mayer, Rich Maund, Sergeant, Russell to name a few.
You can even have a local shop do it if they have worked on bike seats before.
Or, you can do the foam yourself and have a custom shop do the cover.
http://www.diymotorcycleseat.com/
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And so here we are 2+ years later, I like my new V7 II Stone, the seat isn't bad...but it's not as comfy as my CB1100 or Scrambler seat. Looking at them all side by side, I notice the V7 seat is 3-4 inches more narrow than the others. Maybe that is one key to the (lack) of comfort.
I also would like to be about an inch higher on the bike.
+1 on Sargent, I had a World Sport adventure on my DR650 and it was the bomb in quality and comfort. Molded right to your bottom after awhile and never any pressure points.
Anyhoo, any "new" solutions out there?
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The King of Fleece seat mods work very well. You can see a picture at the FaceBook page of a V7 and Norge seat that we rebuilt. It's not just cosmetic. As for gel, I've found the marketing and performance of gel to sit on just under the surface to be at opposite ends of the spectrum. I'm not a fan of that at all. Correct foam (and there's quite a few parameters that need to be addressed) and correct shape are the tried and true. For instance, look at Russell or BMS. No gel seating stuff, just correct shape and materials. Where the correct type of gel does work is directly on top of the stripped seat pan followed by the layers of foam which are built up on that. For those really interested, it's not the simple gels that were made for hospitals but rather an engineered product shaped a bit like a waffle that will deflect weight and rebound in a controlled manor.
That said, there's always those for whom pads and stuff works. Just as there are those who are fine on a stock seat. There is no "correct " way as everyone likes what they like. However, being in that end of the motorcycle business, working with some of the best seat makers in North America, building my own seats, and talking to over 1000 different customers who use my seat covers, the overwhelming majority of what I hear can be summed up in "shape and materials".
The AirHawk, when correctly inflated, is another way to skin the cat that works great for plenty of riders. In the end, no pun intended, it's all about pressure point management, and there's lots of ways to get there.
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Guess I should add:
Just trying to share a bit of what I've learned along the way-like most here. That's the fun part.
There's a ton of things that go into making a comfortable seat, and what's always interesting is that we're all different in what's considered "good". One thing I learned long ago from Iron Butt Rally guys is that one of the major factors in long distance comfort is the ability to vary the pressure points. More to the point, being able to shift up and back to a small degree every 15-20 minutes or so prior to discomfort setting in is huge. Any seat that locks the body into one position was considered a poor choice for the guys who bang out 1000 mile days one after another. Pelvis tilt is another factor not to be overlooked. Rocky at BMS knows quite a bit about that and his seats reflect his skill in seat making for LD comfort.
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Guess I should add:
Just trying to share a bit of what I've learned along the way-like most here. That's the fun part.
There's a ton of things that go into making a comfortable seat, and what's always interesting is that we're all different in what's considered "good". One thing I learned long ago from Iron Butt Rally guys is that one of the major factors in long distance comfort is the ability to vary the pressure points. More to the point, being able to shift up and back to a small degree every 15-20 minutes or so prior to discomfort setting in is huge. Any seat that locks the body into one position was considered a poor choice for the guys who bang out 1000 mile days one after another. Pelvis tilt is another factor not to be overlooked. Rocky at BMS knows quite a bit about that and his seats reflect his skill in seat making for LD comfort.
Good point.
I have a lowered gel seat. As I understand it the idea with gel is that you sink into it enough to distribute your weight more evenly across your butt - so the theory is no pressure points. but move to adjust your position (especially on a very flat seat) and the gel adjusts to be the same as before.
I modified my seat to add extra foam padding I find the extra foam is more comfortable - it may be what I achieved is being able to vary pressure points, or it may be psychogical although Im sure I achieved a little more springyness.
for what ever reason for me 3/4" of foam down the middle and less to the sides which is almost invisible difference makes a comfort improvement - I wont be buying a new seat now.
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Yep. Another thing with gel pads just under the surface is that they act as a heat sink in summer.
One of the things we do at the shop is leave different seating surfaces (installed on seats) and take reading with a laser thermometer.
We also measure what our covers do or do not add/subtract to any heat sinking.
Here is an example. As we know, air is a good insulator. When we install a seat cover on a dished seat the temperature of the seat surface will drop by a considerable amount. It can be as much as 18-20 degrees F lower. Our material is stretchable as well as waterproof. When installed, it will "span" the dish portion by being suspended above it. As the rider sits on the bike the cover will stretch under their weight and will be undetectable to the riders backside. This is important-remember the pea and the princess.
Anyway, the air gap under the cover has acted as insulation and the result is a much cooler surface for the rider. Our AZ, LA, FL, and such customers are quite fond of that feature.
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For a year now I have the Comfort Gel - seat in normal size. It is a bit shorter of the stock seat and looks better in my opinion. But it is hard. It is a bit more comfortable than the stock seat for me as it is narrower at the edges directly behind the tank. This is the region my stock seat causes me pain after an hour or so.
At my dealer I sat on a V7 II equipped with the full program from the "Dapper" line of Guzzi Garage. The bike had a single seat that according the dealer stems from the Cafe Classic seat. It was good. I will be able to put it onto my Stone soon and test drive it for several hours. I will report the outcome.
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The King of Fleece seat mods work very well. You can see a picture at the FaceBook page of a V7 and Norge seat that we rebuilt. It's not just cosmetic. As for gel, I've found the marketing and performance of gel to sit on just under the surface to be at opposite ends of the spectrum. I'm not a fan of that at all. Correct foam (and there's quite a few parameters that need to be addressed) and correct shape are the tried and true. For instance, look at Russell or BMS. No gel seating stuff, just correct shape and materials. Where the correct type of gel does work is directly on top of the stripped seat pan followed by the layers of foam which are built up on that. For those really interested, it's not the simple gels that were made for hospitals but rather an engineered product shaped a bit like a waffle that will deflect weight and rebound in a controlled manor.
That said, there's always those for whom pads and stuff works. Just as there are those who are fine on a stock seat. There is no "correct " way as everyone likes what they like. However, being in that end of the motorcycle business, working with some of the best seat makers in North America, building my own seats, and talking to over 1000 different customers who use my seat covers, the overwhelming majority of what I hear can be summed up in "shape and materials".
The AirHawk, when correctly inflated, is another way to skin the cat that works great for plenty of riders. In the end, no pun intended, it's all about pressure point management, and there's lots of ways to get there.
OK, I'll bite, what did you do to that seat? And is that something you do for customers seats that are shipped to you?
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We use a column buckling polymer gel with 1/4" columns. This allows the product to deflect and rebound as well as absorb vibrations.
It's placed directly on top of the seat pan and then the foam is built up from there. All foam is open cell which allows air to move in and out of the foam.
Foam can be open or closed cell, for starters. Both have advantages. I like different density and weights of open cell foam. Closed cell, the kind that needs to "break in", is very firm (which is ok for some) but the riders weight is going to have to break down the foam over time for that custom fit as air will not move thru it.
Open cell lets the air move thru the foam and when done correct will be plenty firm, which is key in my mind for support. It won't require a break in period. Mind, it's NOT soft as that is one of the reasons plenty of stock seats are lacking for the majority of riders. As an aside, "blowing thru" the foam and getting your butt bones close to the seat pan is not a good thing.
Finally, memory foam gets mentioned a lot. There are, to the best of my knowledge, two generations of this product. Only the 2nd generation, which (of course) is much more expensive is suitable for use in a motorcycle seat.
As I've mentioned here in the past, seats and screens are very much an individual thing. What we do is based on experience and customer feedback as well as my working with several well respected aftermarket seat makers on seat covers. I try to keep the OEM look with some minor shaping changes where needed and then add something that makes it a bit different in the style department.
A guzzi logo, a custom embroidery, a leather insert (or my favorite Alcantra, which is fantastic in the warm weather but needs a bit of care), a tri color flag, that kind of thing. For the major shaped thing, you can't go wrong with Russell or BMS IMHO. For more of the OEM look-that's where I focus.
There is quite a bit more but this is an overview. Am I the greatest thing since sliced bread? Nope. Can I make a stock Guzzi seat a lot better? That's closer to it. Can I make a 1000 mile a day seat? Yes, if you have a 1000 mile a day rear end!
Finally, I'm a big fan of having a bit of fore and aft room on a seat. I believe it's critical to be able to move slightly during a long(ish) ride so as to vary the pressure points created by your "butt bones". Slight movement changes the angle a small bit with very positive results in term of comfort.
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I could go about 250 miles on the stock seat so I bought an Amphibious Soft Seat from Moto Machines. It is a self inflating adjustable aircell seat pad (like a camping roll-up sleeping pad) that attaches to the top of the seat and that works for me. I also have an Amphibious dry back pack that I strap to the passenger section of the seat for carrying rain gear. I think it is well made quality gear.
I suspect you no the cold start problem has been fixed with the most recent factory dealer remap?
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We use a column buckling polymer gel with 1/4" columns. This allows the product to deflect and rebound as well as absorb vibrations.
It's placed directly on top of the seat pan and then the foam is built up from there. All foam is open cell which allows air to move in and out of the foam.
Foam can be open or closed cell, for starters. Both have advantages. I like different density and weights of open cell foam. Closed cell, the kind that needs to "break in", is very firm (which is ok for some) but the riders weight is going to have to break down the foam over time for that custom fit as air will not move thru it.
Open cell lets the air move thru the foam and when done correct will be plenty firm, which is key in my mind for support. It won't require a break in period. Mind, it's NOT soft as that is one of the reasons plenty of stock seats are lacking for the majority of riders. As an aside, "blowing thru" the foam and getting your butt bones close to the seat pan is not a good thing.
Finally, memory foam gets mentioned a lot. There are, to the best of my knowledge, two generations of this product. Only the 2nd generation, which (of course) is much more expensive is suitable for use in a motorcycle seat.
As I've mentioned here in the past, seats and screens are very much an individual thing. What we do is based on experience and customer feedback as well as my working with several well respected aftermarket seat makers on seat covers. I try to keep the OEM look with some minor shaping changes where needed and then add something that makes it a bit different in the style department.
A guzzi logo, a custom embroidery, a leather insert (or my favorite Alcantra, which is fantastic in the warm weather but needs a bit of care), a tri color flag, that kind of thing. For the major shaped thing, you can't go wrong with Russell or BMS IMHO. For more of the OEM look-that's where I focus.
There is quite a bit more but this is an overview. Am I the greatest thing since sliced bread? Nope. Can I make a stock Guzzi seat a lot better? That's closer to it. Can I make a 1000 mile a day seat? Yes, if you have a 1000 mile a day rear end!
Finally, I'm a big fan of having a bit of fore and aft room on a seat. I believe it's critical to be able to move slightly during a long(ish) ride so as to vary the pressure points created by your "butt bones". Slight movement changes the angle a small bit with very positive results in term of comfort.
Well you answered my first question, but not my second.....or maybe you did....
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Sorry. I get carried away. Seats and seat covers are important to me-I have no idea what that says about KoF as a company!
Sure, we do. Case by case basis. Nothing off the shelf. A rebuilt seat can look the same as stock if desired, or not. Customer call all the way. To be clear, though, shape change is minor if requested or needed (for instance if the OEM seat is convex). For many, the shaped seats from BMS and others is the answer. A lot depends on anatomy. Or desired look. And I'm a BMS owner as well as Russell and Seth Laam, among others. These are all good choices.
As the V7 seat is, in my opinion, short for the driver when stepped, as from the factory. I recommend that the step be removed so the seat is level front to back. This allows the rider to move fore and aft as needed. However, you don't have to have it done that way and if you ride two up it's most likely not the best choice.
The other big decision is top material. Leather, vinyl, or Alcantra. Leather looks great and due to the open cell foam under the surface will breath a bit. Vinyl is "use and abuse".
Top of seat can be smooth, tuck and roll, diamond stitched, and so on.
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KoF,
Sorry my man, you may be the seat guru, but your salesmanship needs work....I still have no idea whether you want to help me or not.
"As the V7 seat is, in my opinion, short for the driver when stepped, as from the factory. I recommend that the step be removed so the seat is level front to back. This allows the rider to move fore and aft as needed. However, you don't have to have it done that way and if you ride two up it's most likely not the best choice."
YES. So you raise up the front to match the rear? Perfect. Do you want an order or not?? Are you a vendor here?? Contact info?? Prices? Turnaround time??? PM outreach?
??
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That's funny. Feel free to email me at info@kingoffleece.com.
I can get a seat done for you but we'll need to chat.
Vendor here? I missed that section if it exists. I will, though, and have mentioned this before, donate back to he forum in excess of what I have alreadyy sent in simply as a member if a forum member needs something.
I don't know about "guru" but I have been fortunate enough to work with and learn from some talented people on top of what I have actively searched out.
I'm not much of a Facebook guy (the web site company does most of that badly I'm told) but I did manage to post a picture of my V7 seat and a Norge seat for a customer. I also made one for Todd at GuzziTech. He may at some point post up a photo.
Jim
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Tag. Just received a deluxe padded seat from AF1, it's a 1/4" taller than the stock seat, I will test her out as soon as the weather clears.
If anything, gives me a spare seat to use while my original stock seat is sent out for a real makeover.
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That's funny. Feel free to email me at info@kingoffleece.com.
What's even funnier is that I've emailed you twice with no response. Moving on....
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I never got any e-mail from you.
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The seat on my V7 beat the crap out of me for a few thousand km, but now, at 9000 km it's really comfortable. It just took dedication.
I've put some 800 km days on it, too.
I've made several custom seats for people, usually "cafes" and "choppers", I suggest good foam over gel. Gel sucks. Proper thickness and density of foam is so much more comfortable. I take the bicycle saddle approach. You need *firm* to support your "sit bones". If your tailbone hurts, it's due to either A) crappy posture or B) TOO MUCH padding, allowing you to sink into the seat, which puts weight on your tailbone instead of your sitbones. Padding is great for short distances, that's why you see big puffy seats on bicycles that get ridden for 3 km every month or so. But commuters and riders? They go for firm saddles, like a Brooks.
I plan on building my own V7 seat here shortly, but I want to find an extra seat pan first... someone's take off, or damaged seat.
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I understand what you are saying, longterm break-in on a firm seat makes for a comfy saddle.
Still, I want another inch of height on the saddle, and I have no other options other than custom.
My stock seat just got delivered to Sargent Cycle today, specs call for a 1-inch height increase with super cell atomic foam and a more bench-like seat profile. Can't wait!!
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You can always take it to an upholsterer and have them shave down the cushion and fill it with gel. I had an issue with my v11 seat. After a few hours my ass was numb and lower back hurt. All I did was have it reupholstered in alcantera and slightly shaved the foam and filled it with a gel. Now it's more comfortable than a Corbin. Sorry, Corbin. :whip2:
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A saddle is something you just have to get used to. Like riding a horse. The first few days are miserable. But you get used to it. I've owned lots of different seats on lots of different motorcycles. After about 200 miles they all start to get uncomfortable. You just have to stop and take a break every once in a while. The gels by the way become superheated if left out in the sun!
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Sargent makes a nice product-you'll like it. A flat seat is a good thing on the V7. Like I said, I never received any e-mail from you. So be it.
As for 200 mile seats-yea, that's typical for stock offerings. We cover plenty of custom seats for IBA competitors and two of my customers are winners of annual mileage contests for the BMWMOA. These riders need seats that perform for, at times, 1000 miles a day for 11 days. Aux fuel supplies means that they are sometimes in the saddle for 500 miles at a time.
Over the years a lot of knowledge has been learned from folks like this. That experience gets incorporated into product development.