Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: LonerDave on December 13, 2013, 10:08:44 AM
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I'll start out by admitting that I'm one cheap SOB, and that this question is mostly about money.
I realize that the chrome lining of the cylinders in my 850-T is likely to flake at some point, and all sorts of terrible things can happen when the chrome bits start circulating through the motor. So far, I've seen no evidence of sparkley bits in the oil sump, so believe that the linings are currently OK. But also believe that chrome flaking is a probable (but not certain?) event. Then again, I've heard some say that their chrome cylinders are fine after thousands and thousands of miles. (Especially if the bike isn't allowed to sit, which this one doesn't.)
On the one hand, getting the Gilardoni kits now seems like the prudent thing to do. About $800 for kits and gaskets and I could do it now during winter. But that's some serious coin to me.
On the other hand, if I wait for the failure, repair costs will be higher ($800 for jugs/pistons plus whatever else gets trashed).
So my question is, what can I expect repair costs to be if at some point in the future the chrome lets go?
Here's the dilemma in equation form:
$800 = P X C, where P is the probability of chrome failure and C is the cost of the more extensive repair.
I'd do the work myself, so labor isn't a factor.
Can anyone help me solve for either P or C?
Thanks in advance.
Dave
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A different motor will likely be your cheapest option once the chrome goes....
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A different motor will likely be your cheapest option once the chrome goes....
What the good father says. ;D I *have* heard of chrome bores holding up for a long time if used regularly. I've seen what happens when the chrome lets go. It's not pretty. Takes out the bearings, crank, rocker pins, oil pump... you get the picture. I'm a cheap barstid, too.. but I wouldn't take that roll of the dice. ;)
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Sounds like you are at the point where, for piece of mind, you should at least pull the heads off and have a look at things and figure out what to do from there. Look for not so obvious dark pin holes down the bore as well as the flaking at the bore top.
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You need data to assess "P". Here's one data point: 1974 build 850T (no oil filter) with ~22K miles, zero run time from 1984 to 2006 (kids), and used sparingly since (bad hips). No damage or noticable degradation.
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In case you want to lower P and eliminate the risk of popping the chrome, you could opt to have the cylinders replated with Nikasil by this place in Fondulac as an alternative to replacement
http://www.finishing.com/shops/uschromewi.shtml (http://www.finishing.com/shops/uschromewi.shtml)
I would inspect those cylinders before you make any decisions - good time of the year to look and know where you stand
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BTW, If you could get a good used engine for $1000 ( best case ) with upgraded cylinders then anything greater 80% probability of failure of the existing cylinders and you are on the losing end of the equation vs replacing them before they flake. At some point in time the P will reach 80% - the question is when not if. P is a function of time and conditions. Its a known fault of the design.
Like Chuck said I wouldn't take the risk.
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So we know that P is not 1.0, at least not after 39 years (bobdar). And that we can get a better idea of P by having a look (acogoff).
We also know that C probably won't exceed about $2,000 (using Father, Chuck and ATE's advice about whole new motor - saw a used 850 motor on eBay for $1,200, plus new Gilardonis for $800). Perhaps significantly lower if one with iron jugs can be found, making Gilardonis unnecessary.
So worst case, not doing anything makes financial sense only if P<.4 [$800 = .4($2,000)]. RayB's last post suggested that it won't be that low forever.
C could be further reduced, and P lowered to close to 0.0 by replating now (RayB). I've requested a quote from US Chrome.
Thanks everyone. Sorry to drag you into the tortured mess that is my thinking process. This is precisely why my wife won't let me do the grocery shopping.
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The thing is you'll never know what the P will be for your machine until it fails
Spend $800 now or spend more later. You may have over-complicatred the decision process a bit.
I would bet the prob of failure increases at a rapid rate as time goes on and its not a constant (corrosion rate of substrate). The equation you used would be ok for figuring a premium for insurance if you had actuary data but it wouldn't work here as 2 data points aren't good enough and the rest of us are guessing
Let us know how you finally go
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As a preventative repair, if your cylinders and pistons are in fair to good cobdition, having your cylinders Nikasil'd before they go bad costs a bit over $400. Add to that a new set of rings.
Thats $400 if the cylinders are close to factory dimension. Price goes up if they are not. If hhe chrome is intact, that should be a good ballpark. Had mine done by Milenium
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Millennium is the name of the company I've been trying to think of. A number of threads on this board referring to them. Do a search.
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You may have over-complicatred the decision process a bit.
Me? Over-complicate things? Never! Reminds me of my wife's response when I told her I was going to build a heat-seeking robot to pick up dog poop in the yard - "Just get out there and pick up the sh*t, Dave".
I do understand that P is not fixed and has a temporal component. Maybe my model was too crude? ;)
Perazzimx, I had the same thought, New bores would beg for new pistons, rings, etc.
The Gilardoni options seems best/easiest all around. But in order to convince my inner cheapskate that spending $800 is actually wise, I need to go through all the machinations.
Thanks all.
Dave
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If it were me, I'd go to Millenium with the $400, have them Nikasil the bores , buy new rings and call it a day. May not be a need for pistons
Hope that doesn't slow you down
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Millennium is the name of the company I've been trying to think of. A number of threads on this board referring to them. Do a search.
From what I recall, if your pistons are still in good shape Millenium will Nikusil the cylinders to fit the pistons and all you will need is rings and gaskets.
On the other hand, this is definitely not a new engine. Once you tear into it you might find you need new rod bearings and a timing chain tensioner.
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What you haven't told us (at least that I can see) is how many miles the engine has on it now. You says it "doesn't sit" now, but has it in the past? If it has 30k miles on it for instance, that a lot of sitting around at some point. Lack of use is what kills the chrome bores.
If it's low mileage, the pistons are likely still in spec and reusable. If it has lots of miles on it, then they're likely out of spec and are better suited as paperweights or ash trays. That's why Gilardonis are considered the best way to go - you get everything you need in one nice ready to bolt in package. Plus they'll last virtually forever.
Another thing to consider: if it has 30k miles on it or more and the heads have never been rebuilt (new guides at least), then it's overdue. That about all the miles the original guides are good for, replacement guides seem to last a bit longer.
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Buy a used Jackal motor and stuff it in there -- 25% more displacement and a working charge system/oil filter for not much more than the updated 850 piston kit. Offset the expense by selling ATE your old one for his lawn art project. He likes reusing old bearings and the other robust, 35-y-o wear parts. It's win-win.
I have a running Bassa motor I'll sell for $650.00 plus shipping or pick up for free. Also included are the tb's, ECU and wiring harness. Fuel injected 850T in the making.
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It seems to me from posts by the experts the the liklihood of "P" is 100% or near enough to consider it such. Just a matter of when. How bad things get when "when" comes around is the worst case scenario.
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About 52k on the motor.
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I have a running Bassa motor I'll sell for $650.00 plus shipping or pick up for free. Also included are the tb's, ECU and wiring harness. Fuel injected 850T in the making.
My advice to OP,
buy it, I Luddited a Cali 1100 motor, points and carbs, touch of love, it's brilliant. But fit EFI to run like std. Drop straight into T3 when needed
Run T3 till it fails, people are overlooking one major point, this is an oil filter engine not a loopy or V7 Sport/ 750S/ 850T
Only the oil pump is unfiltered, I've seen loads of T3's with damaged chrome, didn't even wreck oil pump, certainly nothing else.
But if he doesn't want it, I'll buy it if you don't mind storing for a while, will have to get to Cal or Tx to ship to Aus, no hurry at all
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Run T3 till it fails, people are overlooking one major point, this is an oil filter engine not a loopy or V7 Sport/ 750S/ 850T
Only the oil pump is unfiltered, I've seen loads of T3's with damaged chrome, didn't even wreck oil pump, certainly nothing else.
He says in the first post that it's an 850-T, so it could have a filter if it's a late T or not if it's an early one.
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He says in the first post that it's an 850-T, so it could have a filter if it's a late T or not if it's an early one.
My bad --saw 1975 in sig but missed the lack of a 3, but given the year I'd still say it should have filter.
But no question re economics, breathe lightly on the 1100 and it will go harder than throwing bucket loads of $ on the old one.
If every dollar counts and it does have filter, I'd just ride it, forget letters of the alphabet, replate or replace cylinders as and when.
Cost you maybe 2 hours to have a look now, some gaskets, guides or liners and valve job if needed/you can afford it
And let me buy the offered 1100 , I want a few of these to play with
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For those interested in the Bassa motor, I bought the Bassa from a fellow member on here a couple months ago. He bought a new to him Norge so the Bassa was sitting dormant in his shed for a while. The bike has 100,000 plus on it (did not smoke or make any out of the ordinary noises). When I got it home I put fresh fuel in it, checked the oil put in a donor battery then hit the starter. She sprang to likfe purred like a kitten. Rode it around the block a few times the brought it into the garage to stripped off the Bassa trim and put on clubman bars so it would fit better in my shed. I bought it as a future project/parts bike but have no interest in the FI related stuff. All I wanted was the rolling chassis and transmission.
What you get:
Complete motor (starter and/or clutch not included) (if it is shipped oil will be drained)
Throttle bodies
The main wiring harness including relay/fuse block
ECU and whatever wiring connects to it
Decided to reduce the price to make someone's Christmas dream of owning a Bassa come true!$650 $575.00 plus shipping. (I normally only ship in the lower 48) However if you are outside the lower 48 and can make all the arrangements I will certainly package everything up and have it ready for pickup from your shipper of choice.
You are also more than welcome to pick it up for free in beautiful Northern side of Chambersburg Pennsylvania
The motor and related parts are still in the frame. Will remove from frame once payment is received.
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I would ride it till it quits; then replace the whole thing with the best thing I could find for the money!!!!!
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I'm confident that you would have been sorrier for asking my advice than not. :D
I have no issue at all with what you do on your own stuff, Andy. As a part-time studio photographer you're well qualified to turn wrenches. You've proven that repeatedly here as shown with your success with big valves, distributors, carburation, roadside repairs, etc. -- in fact, you've been equally successful with everything you've done with Guzzis. My problem is when you pretend you're an expert and attempt to instruct others in the "ATE method".
You're correct. I'm selling the convert, selling my other bike to a friend, and just going to focus on photography from here on out. Thanks for the advice.
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My advice:
Skip looking at them, and just replace them.
I had a beautiful V700 once. The bores were perfect when I checked them every year, in November.
One year, I decided to sell the bike, so I checked them again in February. Side light revealed a veritable hill country of small "pimples" in the chrome. A few "hills" had already been overstressed by the rings and had shed the "hilltop" of chrome into the sump.
It is just not worth it. Park the bike until you can afford the nikasils.
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My advice:
Skip looking at them, and just replace them.
I had a beautiful V700 once. The bores were perfect when I checked them every year, in November.
One year, I decided to sell the bike, so I checked them again in February. Side light revealed a veritable hill country of small "pimples" in the chrome. A few "hills" had already been overstressed by the rings and had shed the "hilltop" of chrome into the sump.
It is just not worth it. Park the bike until you can afford the nikasils.
No matter how many times it's said "it's not if but when" this thread goes through the board regularly.. ;D
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Quite!
Really, it ain't worth it. If you're really scratching go Charlie's way and get them Nic plated but you still end up with old pistons and you'll need rings anyway. I would honestly say that I think Greg has it nailed. Just bow to the inevitable and buy a set of Gilardonis now. It'll save a shitload of grief in the long run.
Pete
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For those interested in the Bassa motor, I bought the Bassa from a fellow member on here a couple months ago. He bought a new to him Norge so the Bassa was sitting dormant in his shed for a while. The bike has 1000,000 plus on it (did not smoke or make any out of the ordinary noises).
That is exceptional, a true million miles.
I'm impressed but still interested, Makes the OP's 52K a bit pitiful (as it is for a 38 year old bike)
Let the OP have first bite, then me please
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I So far, I've seen no evidence of sparkley bits in the oil sump.
Dave
My understanding of things if it gets to evidence of sparkly bits its already too late.
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That is exceptional, a true million miles.
I'm impressed but still interested, Makes the OP's 52K a bit pitiful (as it is for a 38 year old bike)
Let the OP have first bite, then me please
Sorry one extra zero. That should have read 100,000 plus miles.
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'Back in the Day', (snaps red suspenders, lites pipe... ;-T)
You could go with iron liners relatively inexpensively. You should be able to get a quality VW piston set as well.
It's not perfect, but it's realtively cheap, and you needn't worry about flaking bores. You will need a GOOD MACHINE SHOP tho....if the guys are under 40, and clean shaven, you should prolly go somewhere else...
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'You will need a GOOD MACHINE SHOP tho....if the guys are under 40, and clean shaven, you should prolly go somewhere else...
;D :BEER:
Pete
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'Back in the Day', (snaps red suspenders, lites pipe... ;-T)
You could go with iron liners relatively inexpensively. You should be able to get a quality VW piston set as well.
It's not perfect, but it's relatively cheap, and you needn't worry about flaking bores. You will need a GOOD MACHINE SHOP tho....if the guys are under 40, and clean shaven, you should prolly go somewhere else...
I looked into doing liners vs. replating a while back. Here's what I was quoted:
- sleeves 98.00 ea.
- bore cylinder block, install sleeve, bore and hone sleeve to match piston: 110.00 ea.
- total 208.00 ea. side
Since Millennium charges $209 per bore to replate in Nikasil, sleeves are a non-starter for me.
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I looked into doing liners vs. replating a while back. Here's what I was quoted:
- sleeves 98.00 ea.
- bore cylinder block, install sleeve, bore and hone sleeve to match piston: 110.00 ea.
- total 208.00 ea. side
Since Millennium charges $209 per bore to replate in Nikasil, sleeves are a non-starter for me.
Well...yeah, but I STILL save $2 the other way......
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Also compare the life of Nikasil vs iron bores.
I'd never choose iron over Nikasil - especially for about the same price
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Also compare the life of Nikasil vs iron bores.
I'd never choose iron over Nikasil - especially for about the same price
One major reason they went with chrome (then Nikusil) in aluminum bores was because of aluminums better thermal conductivity over iron.
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Thought I'd bring everyone up to speed on the 850-T. Been a while... :(
Removed the heads, jugs and pistons to inspect. Left bore and piston looked fine, but right side showed some damage. Looks like something had gotten into the chamber, bounced around, eventually made it past the rings and "smeared" itself between cylinder and piston skirt. The piston wasn't so much scored, as there was a "deposit" of material on it. The cylinder did show some scoring (a small patch, maybe 1 inch square). Removed front cover to replace timing chain and did find some small chunks of metal in bottom. Chain was sloppy enough that it had started wearing the inside of the case. Suspect it was a piece of that that had gotten into cylinder.
I ordered a set of Gilardonis shortly after the options were discussed months ago. Turns out that just as I ordered them, we entered one of those dry spells where Gilardoni kits are hard to find. I waited, but understandably, the vendors were unable to predict when they might get them back in stock, so I went the re-plating route.
US Chrome in Fond du Lac has cylinders and pistons now. Should be done in a week or so. Very nice folks there, BTW (thanks Scott, Klaus and Mark!).
Ordered a set of Deves rings from Eish. Another great supplier. Should get them in next day or so.
Heads are being done by local shop. New Kibblewhite guides and valves. ETA - a week.
So, if everything goes according to plan (does it ever?), should be buttoning this up in the next few weeks.
Now we move to break-in procedure. Don't think this topic is quite as contentious as which oil to use :), but would appreciate any thoughts on the best way to seat the new rings. Deves says their rings are made of Swedish steel alloy. Bores are NiCom (Nickel Silicon Carbide).
What say you?
Thanks.
Dave
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Did any of that noxious flaky garbage make it into the oil circulation network? If so, you've got other work to do. :beat_horse
At the very minimum the oil pan needs to be dropped and the oil pump removed and inspected.
I would remove a bearing cap and check there as well. Bearing failure is never pretty... or cheap.
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Did any of that noxious flaky garbage make it into the oil circulation network? If so, you've got other work to do. :beat_horse
At the very minimum the oil pan needs to be dropped and the oil pump removed and inspected.
I would remove a bearing cap and check there as well. Bearing failure is never pretty... or cheap.
:+1 If the engine is out of the frame, I'd tear it completely apart to clean out the sludge trap (oil filter or not) among other things.
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Take a close look at the sludge trap and the rocker pins as well.
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LonerDave, are you getting the message here? Setting flaky chrome deposits loose in your engine is nothing to be trifled with. I don't mean to tell you your business, but installing a new and expensive set of jugs and slug atop a possibly compromised lower end is to court disaster. Without taking aggressive action to determine whether any of that flaky chrome stuff (a) is present, and (b) has damaged any of your bearing surfaces, we're talking taking a chance with imminent, catastrophic failure.
But, it is your bike, after all.
Godspeed.
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Engine still in frame. I need to remove crank to inspect sludge trap, right? Can I do that without removing engine?
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I need to remove crank to inspect sludge trap, right? Can I do that without removing engine?
Yes, crankshaft has to come out of the crankcase in order to access the sludge trap. Engine needs to be removed.
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LonerDave, are you getting the message here? Setting flaky chrome deposits loose in your engine is nothing to be trifled with. I don't mean to tell you your business, but installing a new and expensive set of jugs and slug atop a possibly compromised lower end is to court disaster. Without taking aggressive action to determine whether any of that flaky chrome stuff (a) is present, and (b) has damaged any of your bearing surfaces, we're talking taking a chance with imminent, catastrophic failure.
But, it is your bike, after all.
Godspeed.
Loud and clear, LttP. :) FWIW, I saw no evidence of chrome flaking. Just scuff mark on bore. But understand how nasty chrome bits can be. Sounding like "buttoning up" is best delayed. Guess it's further INTO the woods I go!
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Loud and clear, LttP. :) FWIW, I saw no evidence of chrome flaking. Just scuff mark on bore. But understand how nasty chrome bits can be. Sounding like "buttoning up" is best delayed. Guess it's further INTO the woods I go!
It won't take long, and we'll all feel better.. ;D
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It won't take long, and we'll all feel better.. ;D
850T, right? Tonti frames come apart so nicely. You'll have that engine out in no time. Get ya a bunch of banker boxes and freezer bags to put everything in. Some Sharpies and masking tape to label it all (and to touch up your eyebrows with). I know it's better to be riding that damn thing. But the weather's warm and the days are long. Put the game on the radio and some beer in the fridge. This won't hurt too bad.
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Thanks for the encouragement, guys.
Deep down I knew that skipping the sludge trap and bottom end would nag at me, but you know how it is when you think you see light at the end of the tunnel. Sometimes I have to remind myself that wrenching on them is one of my favorite aspects of vintage bike ownership.
I'm lucky to have other bikes to ride while working on this one.
Life is good.
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Life is good.
That is a freakin fact, pal.. ;-T
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Here's a great 850-T3 engine rebuild "how to" by Greg Bender:
http://thisoldtractor.com/projects_roy_smith.html
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If you go through it and don't find one flake of chrome, at least you know there is none there.
If you take it all the way down don't, I repeat DON'T, be tempted to bead blast the block. That could be a very expensive lesson.
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Yes, take it out of the frame and check the crank and clean out the sludge trap. You will be happy for many years that you did, even though it seems unnecessary at this time.
Break-in: Warm up the oil as gently as you can as you ride to the steepest, biggest hill available. At the base of the hill, shift up one gear to really load the rings, and roll on hard to seat the rings as quickly as possible. Then, coast down to the base again and repeat, repeatedly. Then, change out the oil.
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Finally picking up where I left off in May. Work on the bikes was suspended as we "enhanced" our garage from a 2-car to a 5-car. Two bays are set off from the others and now form a dedicated shop. Hog heaven.
Removed crank for inspection and cleaning of sludge trap.
Trap is a bit less than a third full. Good, I guess, for a 52k motor. There doesn't appear to be an insert to remove, so I assume I just get the sludge out of there?
(http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/davebohnsack/IMG_0359.jpg)
I have no experience evaluating crankshafts so can't say much about the condition or usability. Bearing surfaces don't appear burned or gouged. They do appear to have what I'd call "scoring". Not deep, but visible. Surfaces on connecting rods and front and rear bearings is in same condition - scored, but not burnt or deeply scratched.
(http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/davebohnsack/IMG_0350.jpg)
Rear (flywheel side) crank surface:
(http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/davebohnsack/IMG_0357.jpg)
Front (timing side):
(http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/davebohnsack/IMG_0353.jpg)
Crankpin:
(http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/davebohnsack/IMG_0356.jpg)
Connecting rod big end:
(http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/davebohnsack/IMG_0369.jpg)
(http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/davebohnsack/IMG_0368.jpg)
Rear bearing:
(http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/davebohnsack/IMG_0366.jpg)
(http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/davebohnsack/IMG_0364.jpg)
(http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/davebohnsack/IMG_0363.jpg)
I assume I'll need at least the crank polished, maybe ground. And that I'll need new bearings (main - front and rear), con rod shells. Don't know about small ends.
Figure I'll take the crank to the same shop that did the heads and ask them to measure and assess. May also spend $200 for a couple micrometers and a bore gauge (Fowler brand) to at least practice measuring myself.
Will be checking oil pump next.
Would love it if anyone with more crankshaft experience (just about everybody!) cares to weigh in on condition and next steps.
Dave
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I would suggest that you take your crank, main bearings and rods along with a list of the specs. to a competant engine rebuilding shop, or a decent machinist who knows how to measure something and have the components checked for dimension, possibly you may find that you are still in spec. and may get away with a polish and new rod bearings, check the wrist pin bushings for size and the wrist pins for wear, while your at it check the rocker pins too. Good Luck ;-T DonG
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^^^^^
Agreed. I've seen worse looking stuff, but you'll know nothing until it's accurately measured.
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What the good father says. ;D I *have* heard of chrome bores holding up for a long time if used regularly. I've seen what happens when the chrome lets go. It's not pretty. Takes out the bearings, crank, rocker pins, oil pump... you get the picture. I'm a cheap barstid, too.. but I wouldn't take that roll of the dice. ;)
I assume only big block used chrome. What were the years and models that had chrome?
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I assume only big block used chrome. What were the years and models that had chrome?
The earliest small-blocks had chrome bores too. Big blocks with chrome bores: V700, Ambassador, V7 Special, Eldorado, 850 GT, V7 Sport, 850-T, 850-T3.