Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gootsz on February 18, 2014, 06:58:02 AM
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Hello I have a 2009 GRISO. The following is my attempt/path to improve the fuel map.
1) Stock map was awful. Reminded me of a two stroke. Slow acceleration then Wham full throttle. Very unruly at low RPM >:(
2) Added Guzzi tech O2 optimizer. Better but still unruly.
3) Had Todd update map to “68”. He was eager and very generous to help me out. Ran much better but as always wanted more. :'(
4) I did not want to go the whole PCV/AT route so I had Todd reflash the ECU (expensive). MUCH better low end, still a dip at 4500 but good top end. PROBLEM (at least for me) fuel went from 37+ mpg to 28mpg. I guess I was just too greedy to accept that. Now this reflash did exactly what I was told so there is no problem with how it worked just the fuel. :'(
Finally I read about Mark’s map thru Pete Roper. I contacted him and discussed the what and how of Mark’s map. I was looking really for smoothness but still wanted it to be a GRISO.
Well it was tough sending my spare ECU to Australia but I did and WOW. :o
The idle is smooth, Very good low end response. No snatch at all. NO dip at 4500 and full power at 5000. It might be a little less on top I have yet to dyno, but 133mph(I am 5’11” 210lb) is sufficiently fast for me. The fuel mileage is BACK. I now get 35+ mpg treating it the same way so I am very happy. Oh yes the price was VERY reasonable even including the shipping to Oz.
Well that’s it; everyone’s attempt to help me out did as they advertised but the return of fuel mileage, cost and the addition smoothness from Mark’s map has my vote. :bow
I highly recommend it to anyone who just wants a smooth good running GRISO.
Micky
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Same engine as '09 Stelvio?
Joe
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Same engine, different airbox and exhaust parameters. As soon as I can tee up a development bike we'll be working on maps for other 8V models. Hopefully once we've got that under controll we'll move on to the 2VPC machines.
Pete
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Well it was not the idea of Guzzidiag that you would ship your ecu over the world, but DIY. Flashing an ecu with whatever map is easy and painless. Even Pete can do it. :-)
And after flashing another map you will need a tps reset, how did you manage that?
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I have the centurion (VDST). just hook it up and push calibarte.
Set ilde trim and do component testing.
Looks like a trip to the coaters. I have one in town just decide on color/finish.
micky
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I have the centurion (VDST). just hook it up and push calibarte.
Set ilde trim and do component testing.
Looks like a trip to the coaters. I have one in town just decide on color/finish.
micky
I just noticed one model of Centurions is on close-out sale now at GuzziTech. Wonder if competition from Guzzidiag had anything to do with that?
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Well it was not the idea of Guzzidiag that you would ship your ecu over the world, but DIY. Flashing an ecu with whatever map is easy and painless. Even Pete can do it. :-)
And after flashing another map you will need a tps reset, how did you manage that?
Getting the ECU shipped was easier in this case than the alternative. Mickey has the Centurion system so he can do all the run-of-the-mill mucking about so he didn't need to get Guzzidiag cables. As you say the great thing about Guzzidiag Reader/writer is that bin. Files can easily be emailed.
The reason we're charging at all is simply to cover costs, that's why our option is so bloody cheap! There is no way we can encrypt or 'secure' our map, anybody can read it or write it. It all depends if they think that would be a decent or honourable thing to do. We've read several of the alternative 'Reflashes', quite frankly we weren't impressed bit we aren't going to publicly disclose what they involve because, well? Simply because we think it would be a bit of a low act. Some others not seem to have the same scruples. (shrug?) such is life.
Pete
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Certainly using a ready made map is a lot easier and probably cheaper than buying a datalogger and spending hours on the road tweaking the fuel maps. I always thought the self tune side of Guzzidiag would appeal to a limited number of people and it would not effect the professional tuners too much.
Having said that I had the time, equipment and a passable knowledge of the editing side to make the whole thing worthwhile and very satisfying.
Remember Paul and his programmer gave us this brilliant piece of software for free and only asks for a donation of your choice.
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Micky, thanks for a good review. I appreciate it. My intention was to make a map that provided great low end grunt and a smooth ride right through the rev range. Linear power delivery from idle to redline without losing that Griso 'something' was my goal - I reckon I did it.
The bottom end has been called brutal by some, the mid range power dip is gone, the engine is a smooth as can be and you can still get 45mpg in cruise mode.
Sure, top end power is down by a few HP, but who rides in the plus 7500 rpm range on the road? This map was for stock bikes with stock or aftermarket pipes with a dB killer in. For those who don't want to add aftermarket gizmo's or spend heaps on some aftermarket options, this is the answer.
Thanks,
Mark
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Its also worth remembering that since my last dyno runs on the Green Pig the dyno has been re-calibrated and the results from this last run were from Mark's bike which has only done 10,000kms or so so its barely run in. Certainly regardless of what the dyno says my bike doesn't feel any weaker than it did before but as Mark says? Who rides around at redline the whole time?
Pete
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I have a 2012 Stelvio NTX which has the Mistral exhaust with DB killer in. the bike has 22,000 miles on it and mods have been on since new. I have had my ECU re-flashed from the local dealer (AF-1) via the Rexxer app. He used a Griso map. He put the bike on the Dyno and tuned the A/F mixture and called it good. He says that the bikes come from the factory tuned in a very lean mixture. The bike runs very well but the gas mileage sucks. 23-27 mpg city and 32 -34 highway. That data is computed by dividing miles/gallons actually put in the bike, not relying on bike computer readout. So can this map improve my mpg or should I be satisfied with what I have got. If so how should I proceed. Thanks.
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My mileage is straight from the pump miles/gallons.
That 35 IS city driving and a little interstate. Now i don't run 6th gear at 50mph. If I did it would be more like 40 mpg.(guess)
I use the gears and the rpm without abusing the speed limit too badly. But for the most part no short shifting.
The map is for a Griso, Beetle would have to say if it would truly work or not.
I too with another's reflash got 27mpg like you. But this map delivers.
Micky
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Interested in whatever this is, for my '09 Stelvio, if will improve bottom end (and maybe get rid of that hunting idle?). Otherwise, she runs pretty well. Bike is bone stock.
Joe
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Does anyone have a map for a Mistral piped 4V Griso?
I have an idea of the bottom end to reduce decel pop as I'll take my adjustments from the PCV and put them into the ECU after I remove the PCV. I don't have my head around the mid to top end and I'm pretty sure the PCV mid-top end might be a tad rich. Dyno time soon to work out a map once I get the Guzzidiag read/write working.
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The Griso map will be far from ideal in a Stelvio due to the disparity in pipe lengths. As soon as I can arrange a test mule we hope to be able to offer something for Stelvios but at the moment its 8V Griso only. Mark has a full time job, this stuff is little more than a hobby for him.
Pete
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Does anyone have a map for a Mistral piped 4V Griso?
I have an idea of the bottom end to reduce decel pop as I'll take my adjustments from the PCV and put them into the ECU after I remove the PCV. I don't have my head around the mid to top end and I'm pretty sure the PCV mid-top end might be a tad rich. Dyno time soon to work out a map once I get the Guzzidiag read/write working.
On this my Mate Dave is on the hunt for a G11, when he finds one we'll have a test mule for that bike. Next cab off the rank looks like it might be the 2VPC Norge as I'm currently sorting one of them and its owner lives in Wagga Wagga, same town as Mark.
Pete
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The Griso map will be far from ideal in a Stelvio due to the disparity in pipe lengths. As soon as I can arrange a test mule we hope to be able to offer something for Stelvios but at the moment its 8V Griso only. Mark has a full time job, this stuff is little more than a hobby for him.
Pete
No problem, bike actually runs fine enough. But if something better comes along, will be interested. Thanks for the response.
Joe
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I have a 2012 Stelvio NTX which has the Mistral exhaust with DB killer in. the bike has 22,000 miles on it and mods have been on since new. I have had my ECU re-flashed from the local dealer (AF-1) via the Rexxer app. He used a Griso map. He put the bike on the Dyno and tuned the A/F mixture and called it good. He says that the bikes come from the factory tuned in a very lean mixture. The bike runs very well but the gas mileage sucks.
One of the consistent things I read about in threads where maps have been modified relying on EGA alone is that the bikes all have lousy fuel consumption. This usually goes hand in hand with the old stalwart that 'These bikes run very lean from the factory'. Thing is that while they run lean when they are in closed loop, especially at lower RPM the top end in all the 8V ones I've looked at seem to be rich once you go into open loop and taking fuel out not puting it in is the order of the day.
Pete
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One of the consistent things I read about in threads where maps have been modified relying on EGA alone is that the bikes all have lousy fuel consumption. This usually goes hand in hand with the old stalwart that 'These bikes run very lean from the factory'. Thing is that while they run lean when they are in closed loop, especially at lower RPM the top end in all the 8V ones I've looked at seem to be rich once you go into open loop and taking fuel out not puting it in is the order of the day.
Pete
Pete, thats just what I see in my lambda measurments. taking 20% fuel of the top is not stange. So thats where you never have an closed loop, why did they do that, give extra cooling?
What I do, is: i looked what rpm/ gas I run at steady speeds, in that range I made the map that it runs 0.95- 1.0 lambda in the range with higher throttle I let it run richer, because thats the accelerating range. Most time on public roads you drive not much over 4000 rpm. So that is where you spend most fuel. What it does with fuel at 7k isn't important, there you want power not fuel efficiency
swmckinley54 what 2012 ntx is that: small tank, one lambda or what? Else a griso map won't work ever. The bike doesn't even run. From 2011 Mandello made big tank 2 lambda Stelvio's
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Hello I have a 2009 GRISO. The following is my attempt/path to improve the fuel map.
1) Stock map was awful. Reminded me of a two stroke. Slow acceleration then Wham full throttle. Very unruly at low RPM >:(
2) Added Guzzi tech O2 optimizer. Better but still unruly.
3) Had Todd update map to “68”. He was eager and very generous to help me out. Ran much better but as always wanted more. :'(
4) I did not want to go the whole PCV/AT route so I had Todd reflash the ECU (expensive). MUCH better low end, still a dip at 4500 but good top end. PROBLEM (at least for me) fuel went from 37+ mpg to 28mpg. I guess I was just too greedy to accept that. Now this reflash did exactly what I was told so there is no problem with how it worked just the fuel.
For those that continue to want to bash and or ignore my fueling efforts for the last 13+ years as an advisor to Dynojet for all things Guzzi, please skip my post below.
Micky, I'm surprised you didn't contact me back again. The 068 map is garbage, and the new 03 map is much better. My 02-optimizer is a band-aid at best. I state that often.
Facts: Bikes change, map revisions are inevitable. There is NO *one size fits all* static fuel map that is solid. With differences in state of tune, wear and tear, etc... so not having Air/Fuel data to correct fueling is simply being ignorant. Outside of what Pete is going on about on how great things with "his" mapping, and despite all of my efforts to show him how well my stuff works, I say be very cautious. Different fuels around the globe show problematic when sharing, this is on *brand new machines* - From what I have seen in 13+ years of Guzzi F.I. manipulation. Wide-band 02-sensors continue to prove valuable in proper tuning, despite what Pete says. Dynojet has built a multi-million $ business on it. It works. Air - air/oil cooled motors are still largely fuel cooled, so getting great fuel mileage is tough, unless you want to stick your head in the sand with excessively lean fueling. To each his own.
Do NOT even remotely attempt to run another bike type of map, even if it uses the same motor (8V). They are all VERY different.
Diag has proven solid for basics such as TPS reset. Kudos to Paul and the programmer. However, I have now re-flashed several ECU flashes corrupted by this software.
A recent inverted connection to positive with my cables sent both up in smoke, so beware. It took me several attempts to obtain the correct cables to begin with, so I'm not sure if I'll go through the headaches again.
For those who are enjoying my efforts, thank you.
Todd at GuzziTech.com
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I just noticed one model of Centurions is on close-out sale now at GuzziTech. Wonder if competition from Guzzidiag had anything to do with that?
No, they are readying an update under a new name, using bluetooth connectivity to smart devices in addition to the normal PC avenues.
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Not 'Bashing' Todd. Its simply that we've found the products you supply wanting. Others may disagree, that's fine. As for Guzzidiag bricking ECU's? Never seen it.
Pete
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This is in no way, shape or form a review of Todd's Griso fueling system. I have no experience with it, and so have no opinion on the subject.
My 8V ECU is goofy enough to require activating DucatiDiag [it apparently wakes the ECU up] before GuzziDiag can start running. It took a couple of pairs of cables and Paul's expertise to figure this out.
Since Paul figured out that my ECU is lazy [like owner, like bike! ;D], I have used GuzziDiag a number of times to change my ECU mapping and never experienced a problem with it. And by "a number of times," I mean well over 100. It seemed like a million times. Between my sophomoric attempts, Paul's suggestions, Tiger_One's suggestions, and finally the many test iterations of the Mark/Pete wonder-map...there were a lot of re-maps.
No bricked ECUs. Not even a scare.
I think it's a testament to the Griso engine's durability that I didn't turn my engine into a brick during my earliest efforts. If you are a maintenance dilettante like me, seek the advice of experts. It'll make the fueling better, the ride smoother, and you won't pull your hair out in frustration. :BEER:
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Not 'Bashing' Todd. Its simply that we've found the products you supply wanting. Others may disagree, that's fine. As for Guzzidiag bricking ECU's? Never seen it.
:beat_horse
OK, but for the record, you've never once used it. If you've seen a few "too rich" plugs, that was likely user error. Dynojet uses this WB-technology on every internal combustion engine (including cars, boats & trucks) to the tune of multi-millions of USD's/year. It works brilliantly.
Diag bricking an ECU, didn't say that. Corrupted enough to run... horrifically. It doesn't surprise me when people who it's happened to don't speak up here.
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For those that continue to want to bash and or ignore my fueling efforts for the last 13+ years as an advisor to Dynojet for all things Guzzi, please skip my post below.
Todd, I really don't think anyone is trying to bash you. I applaud your efforts over the years to assist owners to get better fuelling from their bikes.
My map is a low cost alternative to the all the rather expensive addons available (yours isn't the only one). It certainly does not under fuel the Griso. To say so is misinformed. The map errs on the rich side. Griso's with this map do not run lean or hot, and yet still get better mileage than the stock map and have a much better ride. This map is for stock bikes with exhausts with db killers in. Anyone with a modifed bike should look for alternatives, such as your products.
I have several users on both sides of the US and Australia who are very pleased with their maps. The bikes run great and are NOT under fuelled, even with high ethanol content fuel.
I'm somewhat concerned with your statement regarding corrupt ECU's. To my knowledge and with several hundred reflashes with two separate ECU's, plus all those testing my map, and hundreds of others worldwide, GuzziDiag has NEVER corrupted a ECU. Please do not try to scare people into not using GuzziDiag with your alleged experience. I think Paul will back me on that.
Furthermore, I challenge anyone with a stock 8V Griso to try my map. You'll get a pleasant ride, with more low down grunt and great fuel economy, and it won't cost a weeks salary.
The first five Griso owners to PM me, I will send the map provided they honestly and openly review the map on Wildguzzi. Persons with commercial interests in Guzzi tuning need not apply.
;-T
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For those who don't have access to Guzzidiag who would like to take Mark up on this offer you can send your ECU to me if you want. I'll even cover the postage. The only thing you'll need to be able to do apart from unplug it and plug it is is one of the proprietary tools to re-set the TPS and adjust the idle trim.
Pete
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The first five Griso owners to PM me, I will send the map provided they honestly and openly review the map :Don Wildguzzi. Persons with commercial interests in Guzzi tuning need not apply.
1 taker so far. 4 left!
:D
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Me! MEmemememe.....
Oh, wait. Nevermind.
:BEER:
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:beat_horse
OK, but for the record, you've never once used it. If you've seen a few "too rich" plugs, that was likely user error. Dynojet uses this WB-technology on every internal combustion engine (including cars, boats & trucks) to the tune of multi-millions of USD's/year. It works brilliantly.
Diag bricking an ECU, didn't say that. Corrupted enough to run... horrifically. It doesn't surprise me when people who it's happened to don't speak up here.
Incorrect. Mine didn't work. That, despite the expense, i overlooked. I have also seen quite a few PCV/AT equipped bikes and worked with their owners, both 2VPC and 4VPC. I consistently and repeatedly see the issues i have described.
I am not an idiot. We may not agree but I will not resile from my beliefs because of your 13 years as an advisor to Dynojet, I'm sorry but I think your base precepts and understanding of the 8V engine in particular are deeply flawed. The fact that mark can get such huge improvements in rideability AND lower fuel consumption simply by listening to my theories and taking them on board speaks volumes.
As for 'bashing' your product and efforts this is precisely the reason i decided to cease contributing to Guzzitech. I did not wish to be seen as someone who was in open disagreement about your products and ideas on what is effectively your advertising portal. If you see it in some other light? Well, i'm sorry but there ain't much I can do about that to convince you otherwise. I wish you all the best.
Pete
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That's 2.
3 more Griso's needed!
;D
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Incorrect. Mine didn't work. That, despite the expense, i overlooked. I have also seen quite a few PCV/AT equipped bikes and worked with their owners, both 2VPC and 4VPC. I consistently and repeatedly see the issues i have described.
When you say your's didn't work, could you elaborate? Your 8V was fouling plugs with the full PC treatment?
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Wouldn't connect. At all. I've been told before it was my fault because I was doing something wrong. I wasn't. It just didn't work.
My plan was to take it to the US and fit it to my Griso I had there. The advent of the 68S map made it un-necessary for me to pursue that option.
Over the next four years I had interaction with a number of people who did get the system working. What I and they observed paralleled what I have been stating about my experiences with the PCV/AT system and the reasons it behaves like it does.
If others are happy with it? That's fine by me. I will though not be cowed and misquoted into changing my opinions, that's all.
Pete
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Guzzidiag has been 100% reliable for me and I was the first 5am Guinea pig.
Regards fueling.
My 1200 2v motor once the lambda was switched off was mostly too rich by at least 5%, the exception being in the TPS 29-51/3750rpm range which needed a bit more fuel, but that was my bike.
To be fair if you look at a standard Power commander map for the open loop area (the only bit it alters) it takes as much as 15% fuel away in some areas.
The problem I have found if you don't switch the lambda off and rely on a Optimiser or similar for the closed loop fueling it will be far too rich at times hence the problems with error warnings on the dash.
One other point which I have banged on about in the past is the over compensating the ecu does for air temperature and pressure. Anything below 20c and the thing is over rich by my calculations. It seems the base map is made somewhere in the ballpark and the lambda is expected to keep everything on track with poor results.
My bike is set up with no lambda, adjusted fuel table, reduced fueling for air temp/pressure and engine temperature and runs to my satisfaction. If anyone with a 1200 2v motor wants to try it pm me.
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I have a 2012 Stelvio NTX which has the Mistral exhaust with DB killer in. the bike has 22,000 miles on it and mods have been on since new. I have had my ECU re-flashed from the local dealer (AF-1) via the Rexxer app. He used a Griso map. He put the bike on the Dyno and tuned the A/F mixture and called it good. He says that the bikes come from the factory tuned in a very lean mixture. The bike runs very well but the gas mileage sucks. 23-27 mpg city and 32 -34 highway. That data is computed by dividing miles/gallons actually put in the bike, not relying on bike computer readout. So can this map improve my mpg or should I be satisfied with what I have got. If so how should I proceed. Thanks.
If my bike had been set up this way I wouldn't be very happy. Why use a Griso map? other than to be lazy.
The fuel consumption indicates he may have gone for power and got it wrong in the cruise area.
The Rexxer systems relies on a competent tech to set the bike up and very good results can be achieved. My local Rexxer shop asks the customer their needs i.e. good fuel consumption before starting work and they always custom map to the individual bike.
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swmckinley54 what 2012 ntx is that: small tank, one lambda or what? Else a griso map won't work ever. The bike doesn't even run. From 2011 Mandello made big tank 2 lambda Stelvio's
Paul,
I believe that the O2 sensors are disconnected. It is a 2012 Stelvio NTX with an 8 gal tank. The bike runs very well, like a scalded cat, but as I said the the gas milage sucks and when at a stop and the bike is idling it smells as if it is running rich. I know that part of that smell is the fact that the catylitic convert is no more because it is located in the stock pipe and not the aftermarket pipe. You will have to excuse my ignorance as I am not quite as tech savy as some and my eyes just glaze over when we start talking EFI, Guzzidaig and such. I am SERIOUSLY considering putting the stock can back on and asking dealer to re-install stock map. Thanks for your response.
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Incorrect. Mine didn't work. That, despite the expense, i overlooked. I have also seen quite a few PCV/AT equipped bikes and worked with their owners, both 2VPC and 4VPC. I consistently and repeatedly see the issues i have described. I am not an idiot. We may not agree but I will not resile from my beliefs because of your 13 years as an advisor to Dynojet, I'm sorry but I think your base precepts and understanding of the 8V engine in particular are deeply flawed.
Sorry, but you are pretty much the only one on the face of the planet that couldn't get it to work. It's two injector plugs, a TPS tap and a ground. More so a preconceived notion of not wanting it to work. That's fine.
Even when you swung a leg over my Stelvio with the full kit, you told me you couldn't tell a difference. That spoke volumes. Everyone else that rides my bikes say that they are likely the best they've ever ridden. Now that you've stumbled onto a solution that I wasn't involved with, you are raving about it all over the net. "All of the PC-V equipped bikes you've looked at were problematic" is poetic. You rode Andrew's G11 and thought it was great.
I'm not a mileage chaser. I just enjoy my bikes and put gas in them when needed. I prefer to have a healthy, cool running motor with amazing power.
Static map data has shown inaccurate from bike to bike, much less country to country.
My base percepts and understanding of the 8V deeply flawed? I just use the same brilliant internal combustion fueling technology afforded to me by a $45+ million company, that continues to put bikes on the podium and hold Land Speed Records. You've now seen numerous plug readings from 8V's now that are perfect, which was your only argument. It's clear you don't like the product. Fine.
I'm still waiting to hear how you think a correct map is developed.
I am only stating fact on the corrupted ECUs I've addressed. No scare tactics. They weren't catastrophic failures, just flawed data that caused severe running issues until reflashed.
For those who are enjoying my intense work and huge investment, thank you.
Stop bashing my products, and if you do "wish me the best" stop talking about the PC-V as flawed. It is not. It's just a tool, not a magic wand... and very capable in the right hands.
For those who choose to be blissfully ignorant to this technology, I wish you the best.
My last words on here on this. I'll use my "advertising portal" to continue to spend my own money to test, develop and provide solid products that have proven to work. This is a 13+ year argument that just won't die, yet is the basis of most likely every modern internal combustion engine on the planet using closed-loop mapping technology.
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Molly
I don't know the answer to why he used a Griso map. I have emailed him twice to ask if he could improve it and his response is that the A/F mixture was correct and thats the best we could hope for. So I am SOL and I really am not sophisticated enough to get a laptop out and attempt it myself.
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Your case highlights the perils of tuning Guzzis, not enough of them are seen to gain experience.
Things are moving on in the tuning game and adding loads of bolt on manipulators are not now the only choice.
The best option must still be a Rexxer tune with a tech with all the skills BUT they are few and far between.
The Guzzidiag guys (which I'm one) will get there soon with mapping options for various models and sticking a finger in the dike (Paul will know what I mean) won't stop progress I'm afraid.
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Sorry, but you are pretty much the only one on the face of the planet that couldn't get it to work. It's two injector plugs, a TPS tap and a ground. More so a preconceived notion of not wanting it to work. That's fine.
Even when you swung a leg over my Stelvio with the full kit, you told me you couldn't tell a difference. That spoke volumes. Everyone else that rides my bikes say that they are likely the best they've ever ridden. Now that you've stumbled onto a solution that I wasn't involved with, you are raving about it all over the net. "All of the PC-V equipped bikes you've looked at were problematic" is poetic. You rode Andrew's G11 and thought it was great.
Andrew's bike had far more done to it than the addition of a PCV. I'd also like to know where the data that I'm 'Just About' the only person on the planet who can't get the system to work? As for my 'Raving'? I see a different system that I think is superior and that is simple and intuitive that does not require huge expense or hacking into the stock bike's loom. If that belief is at cross purposes to yours? Well, sorry but that's the way it is.
My base percepts and understanding of the 8V deeply flawed? I just use the same brilliant internal combustion fueling technology afforded to me by a $45+ million company, that continues to put bikes on the podium and hold Land Speed Records. You've now seen numerous plug readings from 8V's now that are perfect, which was your only argument. It's clear you don't like the product. Fine.
But its obviously not fine that I choose to be critical of something that I paid top dollar for and it didn't work simply because its a product you endorse? Sorry but I don't get how that works?
I'm still waiting to hear how you think a correct map is developed.
By using a host of different testing methods in a rigorous manner over an extended period of time rather than relying on one single input and its interpretation by the logic of one piece of aftermarket hardware. I have never said EGA is not a useful tool. Simply that relying on it as the sole tool is flawed when looking to create a different map.
Stop bashing my products, and if you do "wish me the best" stop talking about the PC-V as flawed. It is not. It's just a tool, not a magic wand... and very capable in the right hands.
Once again Todd, I am not 'Bashing' you or anybody else but why should I not be able to be critical of something that I, and others, (I am definitely not Robinson Crusoe on this.) have found wanting? Am I not allowed to express an opinion on something that I paid good money for simply because my opinion differs from yours! That's a very 'Soviet' attitude! :D
My last words on here on this. I'll use my "advertising portal" to continue to spend my own money to test, develop and provide solid products that have proven to work. This is a 13+ year argument that just won't die, yet is the basis of most likely every modern internal combustion engine on the planet using closed-loop mapping technology.
Good-o. Hopefully we'll catch up at the Rock Store or somewhere next time I'm over. I have no axe to grind with you Todd, I just happen to think you're wrong, that's all.
Pete
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Bottom line, we don't go to guzzitech, but it comes here??? I find that a little over the top.
PCV, AT and what ever else = $1500 plus. You have no control to change it or even know what it is doing.
GuzziDiag, you have complete control over your map and cost, about $20 for cables plus any donation you wish to make for the fine programming that allows you to change maps.
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Your case highlights the perils of tuning Guzzis, not enough of them are seen to gain experience.
Things are moving on in the tuning game and adding loads of bolt on manipulators are not now the only choice.
The best option must still be a Rexxer tune with a tech with all the skills BUT they are few and far between.
The Guzzidiag guys (which I'm one) will get there soon with mapping options for various models and sticking a finger in the dike (Paul will know what I mean) won't stop progress I'm afraid.
Rexxer are two things, first there are premade maps that you can load, and have luck that you are happy, or not.
Second there is the more serious option that someone with a Dyno, and the software to edit maps, that comes with the REXXER pro version, ECM Titanium, modifies your map. The rexxer ECM package can do nothing more then Tunerpro. So it still comes to the one doing the work if you get what you wanted.
Most Rexxer maps ive seen were not that special.
@Todd: people like to discuss fueling but at Guzzitech you see that as your secret so it's no use to discuss it there. I share all I know, some people catch up quick, others need more time, but all learn something. And that was the reason of starting Guzzidiag. So people start to understand what is happening inside.
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Bottom line, we don't go to guzzitech, but it comes here??? I find that a little over the top.
PCV, AT and what ever else = $1500 plus. You have no control to change it or even know what it is doing. GuzziDiag, you have complete control over your map and cost, about $20 for cables plus any donation you wish to make for the fine programming that allows you to change maps.
Google Alerts brought me here, when my name and/or company was used. And you are?
@Todd: people like to discuss fueling but at Guzzitech you see that as your secret so it's no use to discuss it there. I share all I know, some people catch up quick, others need more time, but all learn something. And that was the reason of starting Guzzidiag. So people start to understand what is happening inside.
Secret in that I've spent more then most people pay for a new Guzzi on the hard/software, plus 100's of hours on map development... that's called intellectual property, and I care not to share it.
I've said direct, and I'll state for the record on the Diag program; Nice work. It's not perfect, but good for anyone that wants to jack around their mapping without solid knowledge and tools, it's quite amazing people are willing to take such risks.
For the the basics, it certainly is worth what they pay for it.
End.
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More scaremongering? Really Todd? Get over it, please!
Pete
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+1 on that.
You can really tell he has nice cash cow with this in the past. I had the same scare tactic tried when we were in the Super Tenere bunch. The flash by that company did about nothing for $500. Such a big waste of money they later offered a free upgrade which did help some.
Having control over the map is HUGE in my book, I would not trust that to anyone that I don't really trust. Plus there is the money, for a one time flash, just not worth it for those big bucks. Just listen to all the users that are getting terrible MPG numbers after the flash.
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tiger_one has nailed it.
Someone is frightened of a little competition methinks. A $500 reflash that actually doesn't do much is a bit like money for jam. I'd be concerned if it was my cash cow too. Don't worry Todd, I'll not reveal the secrets of your 100's of hours of map development. Intellectual property and all that.
You know what? I'll even put my map up against your reflash only option. Yes, it's that much better.
For my map? All I ask is for a donation to cover development costs, eg dyno, fuel and man hours. $50 compared to $500. It's a no-brainer.
Fuel injection for Guzzis is no longer the realm of self-proclaimed guru's and shops with the expensive tools.
Bravo GuzziDiag!
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Well, I have no dawg in this fight (apologies to Micheal Vick) ;) but let me say this. Todd *has* paid his dues. Back around the turn of the century, ::) his map made the almost unridable Centauro fuel very nicely, indeed. Ask Storm. I think LowRider can attest that his Greenie runs well. ;D Todd's map.
The kid (Brad) had Todd reflash his 8V Grease O, and it is very good. This bike has an open air box and Mistrals, I think. Runs almost as well as.. dare I say it?.. Carbs. ;D Mileage? When Brad and I were on our extended trip last fall, it returned almost exactly the same as Rosie. (About 40 when touring)
Of course, it is capable of burning more fuel. Horsepower has to come from somewhere..
I, personally, don't blame him for being upset, *but* there it is. GuzziDiag and TunerPro will do the job that it's taken *very* expensive software to do previously. Kudos to Paul and Beard. Just the same, we shouldn't be passing around Todd's maps.. that's is only right.
Do you want to pay Todd for his experience? That is your call.
Now.. can some electronic thing not work right out of the box? Yep. Same Centauro, same time frame. I'd upgraded to the Creedon chip. It flat didn't work. :o I called Will, and he said he'd tested it, but send it back. The next one worked just fine. That didn't mean the the Creedon chip was a piece of carp, for what ever reason, *one* of them didn't work in my bike. <shrug>
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3 Griso owners have accepted my offer.
I still need two more!
;-T
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I have a 2009 8v Griso with an a ECU reflash end by Todd. His service was outstanding, he stands buy his products and he had an option for many of us that at the time didn't have any choice to improve their bikes fueling and/or performance. I had his full kit on my 2008 1100 and it truly transformed the bike - it was a phenomenal upgrade.
On my 2009 I went once again with the full kit, then because I couldn't figure it out I was all stressed about it and Todd took it all back, even supported me in the decision and made me feel alright about it.
Stock but for a termi exhaust here was a little bit of decel popping from the bike and some characteristics I wasn't happy with. Todd offered the ecu reflash only as an easy fix, with the promise that I could return it if it didn't help or I wasn't satisfied - it cured the bike completely and made the bike run wonderfully. The only catch is that the fuel economy has dropped quite a bit - which Todd has offered to take a look at. Again, excellent service.
The other side of this is Pete Roper (I know there are others but for me Pete is the key) and his vast experience with griso as a rider and mechanic. When I read that Pete was working on a map I was ecstatic, although still very satisfied with my map. Now I'm reading that his map does most or all of what Todd's map does, plus gives great fuel mileage. Wow - I'm super impressed - in fact I plan on sending my ecu to Pete so I can do a full evaluation and comparison between the two maps and then post about it on my blog, and here too.
But I think we are missing something here. Pete and Co. Are enthusiasts sharing their knowledge and efforts with their forum mates in the spirit of improving the bikes they are passionate about. Todd is a businessman who has made a significant investment and is now working to profit on that investment - also on bikes he is passionate about and also in the spirit of improving those bikes. The thing is he has chosen to do this as his livelihood and brings us many guzzi upgrades in an easy to use place to buy them. Simple capitalism. Supply and demand. What's wrong with that?
Frankly Todd is just charging what any Harley dealer would charge to set up their street tuner or pcv or thundermax. Pete is sharing is time and experience for practically free. One doesn't make the other wrong - they have different points of view. I go to one dealer who tells me the v&h fuelpack is the way to go and the other tells me to get only a Harley tuner because it's the only one that works - you know what I do? I do my research and go with the guy I feel more comfortable with and trust more. Todd's is five times the price but he is a business, with all the protection that comes with doing business with a business. Pete is an expert griso guru who has put in a ton of time to find the best solution for him and is sharing that. Thank you to both of them for their contributions.
If I can get the same effect from the Pete map as I can from the Todd map and get better fuel economy to boot then that's great - more choices are always better.
I think we need to go back to simply highlighting what's good about our own products without bashing our competitors'.
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Bill hagan already has a copy as does Doug in Boston for Jacqui's bike. Steve, (Porterhouse.) is already running it as are several of the Ghetto mob. I think that's a fair sample.
A couple of people have already commented favourably on its performance and so far nobody has said its shit or bricked their bike.
Its just an alternative.
Pete
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And once again I'll re-iterate that my contribution has been wholly advisory and as a tester. The work and development of the map is all Mark's. If it was mine I'd be charging appreciably more for it! As it is its his call.
Yes, I am an enthusiast and very experienced but I too am a businessman, admittedly not a very good one, :D but oddly enough I too have to make a living. While working on stuff like this with Mark is great fun and most importantly challenging the simple truth is it doesn't pay the bills. As I head towards my seventh decade that is something that is always at the back of my mind. The idea that somehow because I don't screw every cent out of everyone I can somehow makes me a less businesslike proposition I find rather perplexing. Oh well, let's put it down to 'Cultural Differences'. :D
Pete
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And once again I'll re-iterate that my contribution has been wholly advisory and as a tester. The work and development of the map is all Mark's. If it was mine I'd be charging appreciably more for it! As it is its his call.
Yes, I am an enthusiast and very experienced but I too am a businessman, admittedly not a very good one, :D but oddly enough I too have to make a living. While working on stuff like this with Mark is great fun and most importantly challenging the simple truth is it doesn't pay the bills. As I head towards my seventh decade that is something that is always at the back of my mind. The idea that somehow because I don't screw every cent out of everyone I can somehow makes me a less businesslike proposition I find rather perplexing. Oh well, let's put it down to 'Cultural Differences'. :D
Pete
Oh I'm not saying you aren't a businessman. I'm just talking about my perception as your primary motivAtion, which to me looks like someone trying to help his mates as cheaply as possible. I thought it was a good thing actually. And I think it's just as good if you're a businessman too. I just mean that it's like coke and Pepsi. You buy what you like.
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8V Griso owners -
You really owe it to yourselves to try Beetle's map. I liked my Griso before testing Beetle's maps, but after he perfected it, it made all the difference.
From a "meh" bike that was great at speed but not so great in the lower ranges to incredible at all ranges.
If you have basic computer skills [i.e.: if you can install USB thumbdrive onto your XP/Win7 laptop], the process is easy and completely reversible. You don't like it, go back to the stock/068/03 map you had.
It's winter here in the States. Some of our bikes are on trickle chargers until the weather gets better. So, no down time!
Some times, a good deal really is a good deal.
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I wish Todd well with his products they obviously have a following and at one time they were the only show in town for the Guzzi tuner so we owe him thanks for his efforts and I hope he is in profit as a result.
I think what has turned people off the Guzzitech reflash is the price which to me was always far too much for a simple task even allowing for R&D. I could get a professional custom map for that.
Guzzidiag, Power commander, Rexxer are all good in their own way and so let's celebrate the choice on offer.
Some of the arguments here are the result of mixing commercial interests with this forums campfire ethos which needs to be resolved to prevent further bad blood.
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Yep, now if we could get Paul to purchase the KTM 1190, then maybe be inspired to work on that map!!! Nothing really bad, but from my experience with the Griso, I can feel the retarded timing around the 3k rpm zone, and you guessed it, that is about where you spend the most time while cruising.
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Have to agree with Chuck, Todd has paid his dues and is an asset to our community. He is also a businessman. Whats wrong with that?
It was well worth it to me to install his Flash and the Autotune setup. It all worked perfectly from the start. After applying changes from the Autotune a few times the bike was dialed in exactly at the AFR I chose at each throttle opening and RPM. Todd has answered every question I have ever had promptly and has reviewed my maps for free. His after sale service is 1st class. The Autotune allows you to make the exact changes to your map to maintain the AFR you desire anytime that you make changes to your engine, exhaust, air box etc. You can make adjustments to your map in the winter and summer to adjust for extreme temperature differences. This adjustability makes it totally worth every penny to me.
YMMV but lets not put down someone that has a very good product that works. If it isn't worth to you, don't buy it. Simple as that.
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Sorry, but you are pretty much the only one on the face of the planet that couldn't get it to work. It's two injector plugs, a TPS tap and a ground. More so a preconceived notion of not wanting it to work. That's fine.
I was hesitant to chime in, but the PCV/Autotune didn't work on my 2001 V11S. The bike ran horribly after the install. After a full summer of sending my ECU back and forth (I think it's corrupt now), I ended up getting a PCIII, installing a new (used) ECU and then I bought an AFR gauge and made my own PC map. The bike runs great now, and I average over 40mpg. Keep in mind that Todd did everything in his power to get things working and keep me happy. I would still buy his products and use his services again. He has been nothing less than professional and answered all of my questions promptly. Just stating that I'm one of the others that it didn't work for...
I believe the ECU is corrupt because we installed it again at my local dealer and the reflashed ECU was set at -73 CO, and my dealer couldn't adjust it with PADS or Axone. Luckily I brought my VDST with me, and we were able to change it with that. Oddly enough, my bike runs much better with the replacement ECU I purchased, even when the original was flashed back to original specs.
On a side note, my dealer set up my bike so well that the PCIII isn't even needed, but I just use it to smooth things out a bit.
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Ken, I think you left out the Guzzidiag part of the story. We have been mailing about it for two month.
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Ken, I think you left out the Guzzidiag part of the story. We have been mailing about it for two month.
Sorry, Paul. That's actually the last piece of the puzzle for this bike. You have definitely eliminated the pinging that I had in the 3-5K during heavy throttle, which was my entire reason for getting the PCV/Autotune in the first place.
I'm still hoping to convert my PCIII fuel trims to the ECU via Guzzidiag, but since it's been so cold here, I haven't been able to ride. Thanks again for all of the help! And yes, Paul has seen my reflashed ECU in order to help me solve the problem I was having.
Ken
I should also mention that Paul gave me the map to turn off the lambda sensor on my 2009 V7C, and the bike does run so much better.
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Have to agree with Chuck, Todd has paid his dues and is an asset to our community. He is also a businessman. Whats wrong with that?
YMMV but lets not put down someone that has a very good product that works. If it isn't worth to you, don't buy it. Simple as that.
I personally have no gripe with Todd and as previously mentioned, applaud his efforts. Let's not forget that he was the first to chime in on this thread and claim 'bashing'. He then tried to scare users that using this map was a risk. I'm sorry he can't accept competition.
This map is a low cost alternative for stock bikes. If you've modified intake or exhaust other than a can with db killer, or a seeking a lot more performance, then you will need to talk to Todd. Simples.
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OK, we now have five Griso owners accept the offer.
Once they have flashed and gone for a ride, they will post an unbiased review. Love it or hate it, or 'ho hum' feelings will be revealed.
;-T
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I'm looking forward to the the reviews it will make interesting reading.
I have done a fair bit of road testing on various products and maps and have found initial thoughts do change over a period of time. People are quick to praise their new piece of kit because it feels different so must be better. I have fallen into this trap before, writing a glowing report for a UK made optimiser only to regret it later.
So the initial findings need backing up with long term feedback as well.
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People are quick to praise their new piece of kit because it feels different so must be better.
So true. I hope that they will update their reviews after a period of riding. A revisit can be a good thing. However, one can get used to something too, so that the shine can wear off. :D
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OK, just to revive this old thread but so far nobody who accepted Mark's offer has responded with a review.
Is it still too cold to ride? Do you reckon its crap? Can't you get it to install? Let us know so we can try and help.
Pete
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OK, just to revive this old thread but so far nobody who accepted Mark's offer has responded with a review.
Is it still too cold to ride? Do you reckon its crap? Can't you get it to install? Let us know so we can try and help.
Pete
I apologize for the delay. The local shop I rely on wasn't really prepared to do this. They were confused with what I was asking about. They have the Piaggo software but do not have the Guzzidiag or the correct cables. So I have downloaded the map reader and writer software and the GuzziDiag. I have also bought the correct cables from Amazon. So I'm ready to get started. Hopefully I will have something to report soon. If I get stuck, I'll let you guys know.
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Hello out there, my name is Tod from Maryland and I was one of the ones who accepted Mark's offer. This past weekend is the first the weather has allowed me a test. I have the 2013 model. I was going to wait for a more thorough test and reply but let me give my initial impression now.
I have a stock bike except: removed the air pollution canister and installed a G2 throttle cam as a band aid for a somewhat abrupt throttle response under some conditions. This devise was originally developed for dirt bikes to mechanically change the throttle response by having a cam profile pulley on the throttle tube rather than a circular one. You get less throttle cable pull for the first so many degrees of rotation compared to stock so it is easier to be smooth opening the throttle. My trackday riding has taught me that the sooner and more smoothly you can open the throttle at the apex, the better control and exit speed you can have. It helped somewhat.
I had the OBD cable from my days messing with my 675 Daytona with TuneECU and bought the 16 to 3 cable through Amazon. Downloaded GuzziDiag and TunerPro without much grief. Saved my stock map. Took a test ride with the stock maps over familiar back roads then the next day installed Marks' maps and rode the same short circuit.
I wasn't happy with the way the stock FI did not seem to know what it was doing at small throttle opening and lower RPMs. Opening the throttle some more gave an abrupt response, part of which seemed like drive line lash. That killed some the fun out of having a big V twin street bike. I also didn't like the engine braking or lack there of. I am used to substantial engine braking without a slipper clutch on my BMWs and the RC51 I once had. I learned to have that as part of my braking. This motor seems to add fuel on a closed throttle when I'm braking and feels like it's pushing me into the turn. I don't think Mark's work can or does address this one. More aggressive pads might help but I don't expect much.
So... the map put a smile on my face. The engine response is such that you would have to be pretty picky to complain about anything. Nice not to have to pay so much attention to the throttle when you are cruising through town and has everything you want when the road opens up. Still have a bit of drive line lash but no worse than my Rockster. I think it is mechanical.
I've been an engineer for the last 25 years or so and was a bike mechanic at a Honda dealer in the 70's so I have some background but have never done engine development. The engineer in me would love to understand how with all those maps and numbers available for tuning that it can be done with the seat of your pants and reading plugs but as long as the fuel map is not too lean or ignition timing too advanced I figure the results speak for themselves.
I'll try to get out and do more testing but my life isn't leaving me a lot of time right about now. If Mark and Pete are offering this for a modest donation, I would encourage anyone to go this way if they aren't happy with stock.
This is a DIY project so computer knowledge is needed and you may get a crappy cable from China from what I've heard. If you wonder why someone hasn't done all the work and investment to make it like a turnkey consumer product, have a go at it. These cables usually are supplied with some pricey diagnostic machines. You would be paying for software, hardware, and all the overhead of a business to offer a commercial product. With some help if you need it, this is doable. Neat in a way that you are putting together free software from two different parts of the world, patching together two cables (cheap) and all this development work on a bike with very low production numbers. Is this what the young ones call crowd sourcing?
I'll write again when I get the chance for more riding.
cheers,
tod
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The engineer in me would love to understand how with all those maps and numbers available for tuning that it can be done with the seat of your pants and reading plugs but as long as the fuel map is not too lean or ignition timing too advanced I figure the results speak for themselves.
The numbers are simply microseconds of injection time, higher number=More fuel.
The thing is reading the plugs is not difficult. Yes it is a skill that has to be learnt but there is no magic to it. It also has the huge advantage that it tells you what is happening in the combustion chamber, not after it. EGA is very useful BUT it analyses the gas in the exhaust pipe. In the case of the Guzzi 8V this can give false information about the burn due to charge transiting the combustion chamber on valve overlap. I believe a five gas analyser would be more useful with this engine but not many people use them nowadays.
Thing is Mark's map was neither quick or easy, in fact it is the 63rd iteration he has built and every one had to be loaded, tested, the results analysed and changes and corrections made. It wasn't a simple matter of plugging in a tool, looking at one set of results and producing a single map in a sort of 'Wham-Bam-Thank You M'am' way, it was a long, hard slog. Something that people sometimes forget or seem resistant to believing or understanding.
Yes, there are those who will continue to say that its been gone about the wrong way and that 'Nobody does it that way any more.' Well, sorry, some people do and as you say Tod, the results speak for themselves.
Thanks for taking the time to review it.
Pete
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I now have the cables recommended to me by Porterhouse. The USB cable came with a small CD that I assume contains a set of drivers necessary to use the cable. However, when I insert the CD the drivers do not automatically install. No big deal, I look for a setup.exe file. I found nothing. What should I be doing to get the drivers to install so this cable will work? I also tried to get the computer to detect new hardware with the cable plugged into the USB port, but it could not detect it.
This is where I bought the cable: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-FTDI-FT232RL-KKL-USB-OBD-ODB-OBDII-OBD2-INTERFACE/370453504187
This a picture of the files on the CD.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/018_zpsa4c1f982.jpg)
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Travis,
Don't use the drivers that come on the CD. You need to get the most recent drivers and they are available on the FTDI website. I believe there is a link to them on the guzzidiag web page. Let me go get a link...
http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/ (http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/) Click the link for the windows driver.
Which takes you to this download: http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/CDM/CDM%202.08.30%20WHQL%20Certified.zip (http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/CDM/CDM%202.08.30%20WHQL%20Certified.zip)
I'm running the Mac version, which once you download and install the Mac FTDI driver, the program will jump right onto your ECU.
Hope that helps.
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Awesome. You are too kind. I'll give it another go tomorrow.
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Also, note the following caveat a little farther down on the GuzziDiag page:
FTDI Driver Windows:
If you have problems to get a connection try to install version 2.08.14 (http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/CDM/CDM20814_WHQL_Certified.zip) of the driver.
It looks like that version 2.08.28 and .30 has problems with the new FT232R chip in some constellations.
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Fellow Guzistas - a mid-mileage review.
I've been using Beetle's SuperMap since early January of this year. This isn't a particularly long time to base a review on, and there have been a few weeks during this time when the weather or circumstances forced me to :shudder: drive to work.
However, I've put a few hundred miles on my bike using this map, in conditions ranging from ~35* F [~1*C] to 75* F [30* C], from nose-bleed dry to super-saturated fog conditions. The vast majority of my 8 mile inbound commute is spent lanesplitting, so a lot of riding in 1st & 2nd gear; sometimes I might hit 3rd on a good day. The ride home is at highway speeds, 65-80 mph. I spend more time in the lower gears than any rational person should, and probably more than most.
My 8v was, in it's stock mapping form, almost unrideable in the lower gears; it's great now. Highway mileage is up to the high 30s mpg; lower when I'm commuting or mixing city/suburbs and freeway, obviously. Power is sublime across the entire throttle range.
I can post a more definitive review this summer, and would be happy to discuss my experiences with anyone that cares. But I'm very happy with the SuperMap, and I can't really imagine my 8v without it.
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If one is still available, I'll take it for the Griso Pinko.
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I now have the cables recommended to me by Porterhouse. The USB cable came with a small CD that I assume contains a set of drivers necessary to use the cable. However, when I insert the CD the drivers do not automatically install. No big deal, I look for a setup.exe file. I found nothing. What should I be doing to get the drivers to install so this cable will work? I also tried to get the computer to detect new hardware with the cable plugged into the USB port, but it could not detect it.
This is where I bought the cable: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-FTDI-FT232RL-KKL-USB-OBD-ODB-OBDII-OBD2-INTERFACE/370453504187
This a picture of the files on the CD.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/018_zpsa4c1f982.jpg)
So does it work now? funny those cd files, 12 years old! If there is no setup with driver files, right click the one ending on in and choose Install.
The ftdi drivers exist with setup
http://www.ftdichip.com/drivers/cdm/cdm20814_setup.exe
run setup with cable not in pc, then put usb in your pc and it should work.
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If one is still available, I'll take it for the Griso Pinko.
Greg, of course. Steve has it, along with all the. Guzzidiag stuff. Unless there has been some insurmountable schism in your relationship I'm sure he'd be happy to load it up. If you'd like it sent direct and have the gear yourself? You're more than welcome.
Pete
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If one is still available, I'll take it for the Griso Pinko.
Greg,
I'd be happy to come over this weekend and load the map up, or at least walk you through getting the correct cables and the read/write process on a Mac. I'm heading down to California on Tuesday morning and will be gone for about 4 weeks. So if I can be of any help, it will have to be this weekend.
SD
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Greg,
I'd be happy to come over this weekend and load the map up, or at least walk you through getting the correct cables and the read/write process on a Mac. I'm heading down to California on Tuesday morning and will be gone for about 4 weeks. So if I can be of any help, it will have to be this weekend.
SD
It can wait until your return. I'll call you later.
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Sorry for the delay, but I have finally got Mark's latest map loaded and just got back from an hour long ride. The bike runs great. It feels a little faster than before. However, it has been about a month since I rode the Griso and in the meantime I've been riding my Ambassador and CX500. So my sense of speed has been altered during that time. I wish I did this all at once and tested the bike before and after on the same day. My bike has always run well. There has never been any of the surging or problems that I've read about on some of the early 8V bikes. The main reason to try this map was make sure the bike wasn't running too lean from the factory. There was always a lot of heat being put off that was especially noticeable during hot and humid weather. This is part of the reason my exhaust pipes were ceramic coated with Jet-Hot. That helped a lot, but even after the Jet-Hot my right foot still received a fair amount of heat from that bend in the exhaust near the shifter. It was only 75 degrees F today with no humidity. So I won't be able to test the hot foot issue for a while.
In addition, there was no popping on the overrun. Many times I tested for this and only heard a little burbling, which is what it has always done.
What else should I look for? Should I check the gas mileage? Check the plugs to see what they look like?
Mark, thank you very much for letting me try your map. Thanks for the tutorial too. I printed it out and it made the job go very smoothly.
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Travis, if your bike is stock or running just a can with a dB killer that map you can check your plugs by all means but you don't have to worry as there are a host of folks running it and slightly earlier iterations and there hasn't been one problem of a mechanical nature.
With the stock map with the lambda active the ECU will try and correct to overly lean settings in closed loop, now its running open loop the while time you should find a considerable improvement in fuel economy because in fact most of the factory maps are in fact far too rich!
Pete
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Travis, if your bike is stock or running just a can with a dB killer that map you can check your plugs by all means but you don't have to worry as there are a host of folks running it and slightly earlier iterations and there hasn't been one problem of a mechanical nature.
With the stock map with the lambda active the ECU will try and correct to overly lean settings in closed loop, now its running open loop the while time you should find a considerable improvement in fuel economy because in fact most of the factory maps are in fact far too rich!
Pete
My bike has a Mistral can with the dB killer installed. I'll check my fuel economy with my next few tanks of gas.
It definitely ran well today, just couldn't say how much better. I really should have done this all in one afternoon instead of spread out over such a long period of time.
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So has anyone developed an 1100 map yet? I have a 2007 G11 with Mistral can, no db killer (not so loud at all). The bike was surging and popping at low rpm before I installed the 02 Optimiser. Now, it's very smooth on the bottom end, runs great all around. That being said, a turn key map with improvements throughout the rev range and no need for an Optimiser is attractive. Anyone? A great working 1100 map with aftermarket pipe?
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I have an 1100 map as well as the 8V map. It's built for cans with catcons and dB killers, but I'm sure I can tweak it for the Mistral with proper feedback. If it's the Hi-Pipe then it will be easy.
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Sounds good, I'll start to assemble the parts and contact you when I have the software working.
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Hi,
Further to Mark's generous offer to try his Griso 8V map way back last year, I decided to forget about work and stuff today and at last I have loaded the latest one I received in October 2014.
When I bought the bike I soon got a bit dissillusioned with the stock map and had a local guy sort something out for me (at a price). Things were better but I still had issues with slow riding and harsh acceleration with popping on overrun - I do a lot of journeys in and out of London (40 miles or so), up the motorway and then chugging around London Streets; I was getting a bit fed up with the very lumpy slow running with clutch in and out to control at slow speeds.....
Well, Mark's map (stock silencer) has been a revelation!! I played with Guzzidiag this morning, hooked up my laptop and found it all a piece of cake (I was a bit worried about f***ing everything up!). Went for a ride of about 60 miles after it was all done and I am amazed how smooth the engine and drive train have become.
No more 'clutch riding' at slow speeds, constant gears through slow corners, etc.. At first I thought the acceleration seemed much softer but it's just as fast (faster) but the smoothness confused me at first. So the brakes got a lot more use as my approach speeds are much higher now.
A different bike, many thanks for the opportunity Mark - I'll email you at some point but brilliant work, all your efforts greatly appreciated.
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Hi,
Further to Mark's generous offer to try his Griso 8V map way back last year, I decided to forget about work and stuff today and at last I have loaded the latest one I received in October 2014.
When I bought the bike I soon got a bit dissillusioned with the stock map and had a local guy sort something out for me (at a price). Things were better but I still had issues with slow riding and harsh acceleration with popping on overrun - I do a lot of journeys in and out of London (40 miles or so), up the motorway and then chugging around London Streets; I was getting a bit fed up with the very lumpy slow running with clutch in and out to control at slow speeds.....
Well, Mark's map (stock silencer) has been a revelation!! I played with Guzzidiag this morning, hooked up my laptop and found it all a piece of cake (I was a bit worried about f***ing everything up!). Went for a ride of about 60 miles after it was all done and I am amazed how smooth the engine and drive train have become.
No more 'clutch riding' at slow speeds, constant gears through slow corners, etc.. At first I thought the acceleration seemed much softer but it's just as fast (faster) but the smoothness confused me at first. So the brakes got a lot more use as my approach speeds are much higher now.
A different bike, many thanks for the opportunity Mark - I'll email you at some point but brilliant work, all your efforts greatly appreciated.
This is one of the things that tricks you at first. After five or so years of running the 68S map I had become acclimatised to riding around its imperfections and one of the things I tended to do was accelerate harder than I needed to in certain situations to avoid the slightly cantankerous small throttle behavior. Using Mark's map because I no longer had to do this I initially thought that overall the performance seemed *Softer*. A few separate timed runs on my local 'Sprint Track' soon disabused me of that notion! :D it's just that the Beetlemap is so linear that there are no discernible flat spots or dips in the torque curve, it just progressively builds torque and power so it's easy to find yourself looking down at the speedo and thinking 'F*ck me drunk!' As you hurtle towards 200kph!
If there is one *Problem* it is that it's so relaxed and effortless that one has to pay much more attention to one's speed as travelling at 'Go to Gaol' speeds feels like bimbling down to the shops for a litre of milk!
Pete
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Pete,
Maybe none of this would have happened without your input - I really appreciate the time and effort you have put in on all matters relating to these bikes; I love the griso but probably wouldn't have persevered with it without your optimism and the reams of information on this and other forums on all matters.
Cheers mate!
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No. My input has been minimal. I am simply a recipient and promoter of others excellent work.
Pete
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I have an 1100 map as well as the 8V map. It's built for cans with catcons and dB killers, but I'm sure I can tweak it for the Mistral with proper feedback. If it's the Hi-Pipe then it will be easy.
Beetle
I have been reading this topic for awhile in the hopes of this statement.
My 06 Breva suffers from a little pinging from time to time, stumbles some at low speed accelerations. Just an irritation, nothing that would want me to do major modifications. If you map would fix these and maybe improve MPG some what that would be awesome. I run premium non ethanol gas about 90% of the time. If I am on the road, then I can't always find non ethanol gas, around my house I have several stations that have real gas. The bike is completely stock, no aftermarket exhaust or modifications to air or fueling.
While I have never done anything of this type, sounds like within my grasp, except for the balancing afterwards, don't have the equipment.
Can the bike be ridden to the shop to be re-balanced afterward, or would you recommend I trailer to the shop.
Old Head
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Old Head,
I have a Breva 1100 specific map. You won't need to trailer your bike anywhere if it does need a TB balance. Load the map and ride. Of course, you'll need the GuzziDiag software and cables to load the map.
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I took Mark's map to the Not a Rally last year (one of his earlier versions and new to me) and it had some teething problems. He kept coming up with maps faster than I could keep up with. The second to last map has been on my bike for about six months as it worked plenty good and frankly I wanted to run a map a bit before updating again. Finally burned in the Gold version from last August and took it to the Not a Rally this weekend. Gas mileage ranged from 36 to 47mpg (the last tank has not been computed but coming from Flagstaff to Phoenix with an over night stay in Cottonwood the on board computer said 36.7mpg but the low fuel light came on at 142 miles. Normally it blinks at 120 for me.
Jerkiness on the round abouts in Cottonwood was gone, acceleration from the basement (1200 rpm) was smooth. While not hammering it really, it does seem to lack some of the eye ball flattening acceleration the stock map had while retaining the sneaking 80-90mph jump without fan fare that can earn you a ticket if you're not watching. Hit 90 a couple times on the Interstate while over compensating for a hill and headwind. Just a minor tweak of the throttle and the bike is going way faster than you think. With NO feedback that she is working hard. The Honda CB1100 has the power to do the same but the inline four lets you know with good audio cues from downstairs.
The "new" map is the bee's knee's. On one hand I'm glad I waited so my seat time on the older maps let me appreciate the final version; if you are on the fence about upgrading it, at this point I see no down side. Go for it. Mark et al; nice job! :bow
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To continue:-
Remapped last Saturday, everything good.
Quick spin on Sunday starting from cold, everything good.
I took the bike to my workshop yesterday to load up some parts for delivery to London today, quite a lumpy start and stalled and then took a while to settle down (about three miles) with some popping on decelleration. I thought maybe it was crappy fuel; went into London to deliver this morning, a little lumpy at the start, still much better but actually experienced some pinking pulling off from a couple of sets of lights.
Running well on the way back with a small empty spot when giving it some throttle at around 3000 - 4000 revs.
I've just got back and filled up....44 UK miles to an imperial gallon so I'm happy with that....
Thinking I may re-install the map and reset TPS and learning again to see if that makes a difference - anyone got any tips on using the GD Stepper Test?
I have my CO trim at -5 .....is it worth going nearer 0?
Still very happy with the smoothness though and I'll see if the new tank of fuel helps any, if not I'll try re-installing.
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Did you re set the self learning parameters?
Pete
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I didn't reset until after the first run on the Saturday. reset after that run and then everything still okay on the Sunday.
Do you think I should re-install, set the CO trim and reset the learning parameters and see what happens?
Cheers for the response Pete.
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No need to reset the parameters again. Try setting CO at zero.
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Okay mate....I'll see if I get time this weekend.
Thanks again.
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The rest of the tune is right? Valves set at six and eight thou, (0.15 & 0.2mm), TB's balanced? No messing with throttle stop or linkage rod?
Pete
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Right - My Carbtune arrived yesterday!
I checked the throttle grip and cables - all okay now (one cable was welding itself on to the rocker cover so I've re-routed that - it operates smoothly so I asume it's okay).
Checked the airscrews, both wound out a bit.
Balanced the TB's and set the idle.
Reset the TPS.
Did it all again :)
Reset the CO trim to 0 (it was -3, not -5)
Went for a 30 mile ride to collect some work parts.
Much better now, apart from some drivetrain backlash when closing then opening the throttle.
So, I tightened up the cables a bit which did help somewhat.
Got home and found the revs rising on left lock so I've adjusted the cables again and have yet to try it out.
Idle is between 1,000 & 1,200, nice and low (maybe too low hence the backlash - a shame you can't really adjust the idle).
Smells a bit of fuel so I'll try going backwards again with the CO Trim on my next graunching session.
Thanks for the advice; I'll check the tappets next week when I have the gear and do it all over.
I'll see what it's like on my next trip out.......Cheers :BEER:
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Idle is between 1,000 & 1,200, nice and low (maybe too low hence the backlash - a shame you can't really adjust the idle).
You sort of can. In the software, you can set 'target idle'. I've had to do it for a couple of Norges. Adjust the CO trim first. It might be a tad rich at idle.
And definitely set the valves at 6 & 8 thou.