Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mayor_of_BBQ on March 11, 2014, 03:47:42 PM
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Just had my breva at riders hill for spring service
It was running ok, just a tune up
It had
New plugs outter & inner
Canisterectomy
New fuel filter
Valve adjustments
Brake job
Gps pigtail wired to battery
Tb cleaned/ balanced
Correct updated map for stain tune exhaust
I put a new air filter in about 200miles ago
I got the bike home, took it off the truck and ran it to the corner store and back >4mi
It ran perfect
Parked it two days
Went to ride today, started and purred on first flick
As I pulled out of my driveway onto the street it just cut out when I pulled in clutch & stopped at sign
I live at the top of a hill so I just rolled on and tryed to start it.. No dice
I try to bump start it down the hill.. No go
I pull off at a flat place, try to start it, now the starter keeps turning even when I take thumb off the button, have to hit kill switch to stop it
Key off, key on
Big red SERVICE light is on
Key off key on
No service light, normal needle sweep, but hit start button clunk then nothing
Key off count to ten key on
Normal sweep, starter turns, keeps turning when I release button
Till kill switch
Key off on clunk
Etc
Etc
Etc
Little less than 1/4 tank of gas (opened and looked can't see it but it's sloshing)
Checked main 30a fuses both good
Battery connects tight
HIT ME WITH A GUESS... I'm a mile from my house DOWN. BY. THE. RIVER.
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Sounds like a switch is preventing it from getting going.
Just IMO and I'm about a ready to leave from work.
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Bad connection, This >"Gps pigtail wired to battery"
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When you hit the starter button the motor should turn for four seconds, if it doesn't fire in that time the starter should stop spinning. If its longer than four seconds and its still spinning there has to be some form of direct feed event happening to the starter or the ECU is continuing to send a start command to the starter relay.
Obvious places to look are the sidestand switch and clutch switch but these should not allow the starter to spin.
Pete
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(Points, Carburetors) ummm all kidding aside I'm guessing it has something to do with the GPS pigtail. That sounds like the only electrical work done. That or a pinched shorted wire that happened during the work. My normal diagnostics would say to pull the plugs and check for spark and to listen for fuel pump priming sound. Other than that I don't know enough about the newer bikes to be of any help.
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My first call would be to Riders Hill .
Dusty
Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .
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That's what any good submarine captian would do, yellow or otherwise ::) ::) ::)
My first call would be to Riders Hill .
Dusty
Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .
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The pigtail is wired direct to battery and fused
Tried to call riders hill couldn't get them around 4:30 today
Side stand switch seems to be working-- at least the idiot light on dash indicates the correct position
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As for clutch switch, I tried starting it in neutral with clutch out and in
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Can you hear Fuel pump? Did you pull spark plug and check for spark?
I will assume the Air-filter is not clogged shut so first we need to know what of the other 2 things needed to run the bike is not getting. fuel or spark. Now I go about things differently than others. If it were me I would check spark first. If spark is present I would spray a little starting fluid into the throttle body to see if it tries to start or runs momentarily. If so you would then only need to figure out why the bike is not getting fuel. If there is no spark well then you just need to figure out why?
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Likely, some mystery connector/connection got loosened when they added that GPS wire.
Investigate the areas it is in closely.
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Possible that one of the electrical connectors serviced was not seated 100% and backed out enough to disconnect. Try unpluging and repluging anything you can get to. Good Luck! ;-T
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Probably a weak battery. The voltage is there but it has lost it's punch. My Triumph Tiger has done the same thing to me a couple of times at the end of its battery life. Time spent in the shop is often with the key in the on position for extended periods of time. That can finish off a battery that otherwise seemed ok. You can't bring it back, it has lost it's will to live.
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:BEER: :pop Ian should be around in the AM tomarrow.
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Fuel filter installed in the wrong direction?
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Easy thing to do is pull an outer plug after cranking to see if it is wet with fuel. When my Breva lost it's fuel filter, the plugs were very dry. I would rule out fuel issue by doing that. Could be simply a fuel line came off from when the filter was changed (or filter wrong direction as mentioned before). Then on to electrical.
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I did that to my own filter. The hose clamp fell off after 4 miles. I was home when it failed, but the 4 miles was to the gas station to fill up. So then I had to remove a full tank and remove the fuel pump again. this time I used better hose clamps.
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Thanks for all the suggestions guys.
I got the tech who worked on it on the phone. His only suggestion was check the tubing to the throttle bodies and make sure they are connected? Lol
I reinstalled the charged battery which of course didn't help shit.
At this point I was going to load it up in the back of the truck. But I've never pushed it up the ramps solo without driving it up under throttle.
I found a likely spot further down the hill where I can back the truck and roll it in without the ramps being too steep.
Of course my straps aren't in the truck, they are in my storage unit wrapped around this damn oven I just bought and unloaded solo...
So a trip to Great Northern for furniture dollies to put the range on.. Take the straps off. Back to the bike.
Only now the temp has dropped 20degrees and the wind is howling.. And what's that? Sleet?!? Awesome.
I'm not dumb enough to try and load it solo in the wet so..
My bike is still sitting at the bottom of my street
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I feel your pain - wish I were there to help.
Mark
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I'm pretty sure it's not getting fuel.. I will pull the plugs and check as soon as it stops raining/sleeting or as soon as I get it home .. Which ever comes first.
If it has spark & no gas I'll pull the tank and check the filter.
I'm really kicking myself in the ass for taking it for service. I could do everything they did except the ecu stuff.
Now I have to take it apart on my front steps and more or less do it over again. That's exactly what I was trying to avoid when I took it for service.
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I hope you live in a low crime area , but not wanting to deal with this in freezing rain and wind is understandable .
Dusty
Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .
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Blown off fuel hose in the tank won't trigger a 'Service' warning as it isn't something that the OBD can 'Detect'.
Pete
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To begin with I would remove the fuze from the pigtail just to take that circuit out of the equation. Then go circuit by circuit with a multi meter and test each individually. If you have a mechanics stethoscope you can touch the probe to each relay while energizing that circuit. You are listening for the tiny click that the tiny solenoid in the relay makes when it moves.
I have seen relays too weak to function properly but test okay before you energize them.
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I'm pretty sure it's not getting fuel.. I will pull the plugs and check as soon as it stops raining/sleeting or as soon as I get it home .. Which ever comes first.
If it has spark & no gas I'll pull the tank and check the filter.
I'm really kicking myself in the ass for taking it for service. I could do everything they did except the ecu stuff.
Now I have to take it apart on my front steps and more or less do it over again. That's exactly what I was trying to avoid when I took it for service.
I'm feel your pain on this one for sure. Have you checked the error codes on the dash?
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I'm feel your pain on this one for sure. Have you checked the error codes on the dash?
I don't know how to do this
I will try to search around and figure it out
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To begin with I would remove the fuze from the pigtail just to take that circuit out of the equation. Then go circuit by circuit with a multi meter and test each individually. If you have a mechanics stethoscope you can touch the probe to each relay while energizing that circuit. You are listening for the tiny click that the tiny solenoid in the relay makes when it moves.
I have seen relays too weak to function properly but test okay before you energize them.
There is no fuse in the pigtail.. The mechanic didn't install one because he 'didn't know how many amps my gps was'?
As for the multi-meter I don't have one and I don't know how to use it.
I'll get one and use the manual to try and figure out how to do that if the fuel filter & plumbing all look ok
Thanks
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There is no fuse in the pigtail.. The mechanic didn't install one because he 'didn't know how many amps my gps was'?
One thing for sure - you can quit calling this lemon a "mechanic" .... :o 2 minutes on the Internet would have given him the answer to that ....
Lannis
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This really sounds like an electrical connection is:
1. Loose
2. Has a section of bare wire that is shorting on something
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My recomendation.
Step 1. Turn the ignition switch to the on position with the gas cap open while listening for the fuel pump to work for a few seconds and watch for bubbling/swirling gas (since you just refueled the tank, might be kind of hard to tell). If you hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds, that is good and you know it is getting a proper signal. If you see gas swirling around, that is a sign of a hose loose on the fuel pump.
Step 2. Hit the start button and let the ECU cycle all the way through the start sequence (don't turn it back off unless the starter runs for an extended period of time, as it will turn the starter motor something like 4 seconds and quit on its own if the bike does not start). If no start, pull out a spark plug and check it for being wet with gas.
This will tell you if it is a fuel issue and what I would do first since it is so easy. The red triangle of death warning that popped up once, if I read/understood your report correctly, could be a nonrelated issue like the oil pressure sending unit not reading properly.
Also, download a PDF of your service manual, Guzzitech has then on-line, and read up on how to enter the diagnostics code and interpret the fault codes, recording them for future reference. On my Breva, I would periodically clear the codes after recording them to see what popped up once or was a repeat offender that needed attention.
Good luck and wish I was close enough to come help you rescue yor Guzzi. Note, I've had help pushing a bike up the ramps into my truck from passers by more than once. Seems most guys would be willing to help if asked, gives them something to tell their friends about later at the bar! ;-T
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One thing for sure - you can quit calling this lemon a "mechanic" .... :o 2 minutes on the Internet would have given him the answer to that ....
Lannis
That's for sure. Even without looking it up, no GPS receiver is going to draw anything in the range of whole amps, so he could have guessed and put in a 2A fuse to protect the wiring.
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Electrical problems are the worst. You have my sympathies.
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My recomendation.
Step 1. Turn the ignition switch to the on position with the gas cap open while listening for the fuel pump to work for a few seconds and watch for bubbling/swirling gas (since you just refueled the tank, might be kind of hard to tell). If you hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds, that is good and you know it is getting a proper signal. If you see gas swirling around, that is a sign of a hose loose on the fuel pump.
Step 2. Hit the start button and let the ECU cycle all the way through the start sequence (don't turn it back off unless the starter runs for an extended period of time, as it will turn the starter motor something like 4 seconds and quit on its own if the bike does not start). If no start, pull out a spark plug and check it for being wet with gas.
This will tell you if it is a fuel issue and what I would do first since it is so easy. The red triangle of death warning that popped up once, if I read/understood your report correctly, could be a nonrelated issue like the oil pressure sending unit not reading properly.
Also, download a PDF of your service manual, Guzzitech has then on-line, and read up on how to enter the diagnostics code and interpret the fault codes, recording them for future reference. On my Breva, I would periodically clear the codes after recording them to see what popped up once or was a repeat offender that needed attention.
Good luck and wish I was close enough to come help you rescue yor Guzzi. Note, I've had help pushing a bike up the ramps into my truck from passers by more than once. Seems most guys would be willing to help if asked, gives them something to tell their friends about later at the bar! ;-T
DING DING DING
looks like a gas tornado in there, matey
So now I know one of the fuel lines is off.. Thats simple enough to fix
Too bad I have to push it up a huge hill back to the house to pull the tank and fix it :-/
Im going to be really pissed if he used the chintzy clamps that came with the filter instead or the Otelikker (ear clamps) fancy clamps that guzzisteve recommended... Those were a PITA to find but i got them and put them in the box with the fuel filter when I dropped it off!
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DING DING DING
looks like a gas tornado in there, matey
So now I know one of the fuel lines is off.. Thats simple enough to fix
Too bad I have to push it up a huge hill back to the house to pull the tank and fix it :-/
Im going to be really pissed if he used the chintzy clamps that came with the filter instead or the Otelikker (ear clamps) fancy clamps that guzzisteve recommended... Those were a PITA to find but i got them and put them in the box with the fuel filter when I dropped it off!
Bummer, but at least it isn't a major problem.
If it is still at the bottom of the hill this weekend let me know. I may be heading up that way this weekend.
Call them and give them hell. Maybe they'll throw out something to compensate you. Maybe loan you a Cal 1400 for a day. :BEER:
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(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/CA1884AC-743A-4CB1-A0C2-ED9C4F565560-3156-000003737C4FEC1D_zps5d76ee45.mp4)
Well I got it pushed up the hill and to the house whew
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http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/CA1884AC-743A-4CB1-A0C2-ED9C4F565560-3156-000003737C4FEC1D_zps5d76ee45.mp4
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Wow, that's a lot of fuel churning around!
You said you say Brev-ah and not Breeve-ah because the latte is brev-ay. Then you said Goo-zee. Does this mean you order a pepperoni pee-za? Sorry, but you brought it up. ;D
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Brevé Latte
Gootzee Breva
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I'm betting that after pushing the Breva up the hill he was calling it something else .
Dusty
Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .
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SWEET (but sucks if it was the tech's fault and not just dumb luck).... Still, it's gotta feel good to find it!
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Doesn't explain the 'Service' message though........
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That shop has all the right parts and clamps, at least w/I was there, should be all stock stuff. You could also use fuel injection clams w/the screw on the side. They have curved edges and tighten round. Auto parts store. OR if you have the stock clamps the store sells the tool to clamp it, it's for the clamp on front wheel drive boots.
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Doesn't explain the 'Service' message though........
That's what was making me lean toward something electrical. BUT, if she stalls because of low fuel pressure can't the ECM get one or more signals from one of the sensors to cause it to temporarily set a trouble code?
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I don't rightly know but I can say that I've never seen a deader from the fuel hose popping off throw up any kind of error or service message and I've seen a few. Doesn't mean it can't happen, just that I've never seen it.
Any-which-way if replacing/refitting the hose works? So much the better.
FWIW almost every failure I've encountered the owner has just filled up with petrol when the hose pops off. I can only suppose that its related to the sudden change in temperature somehow but once again that is pure speculation....(Shrug.)
Pete
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Out of dozens of attempts to start it.. I only got the svc warning once... It does have a Breva dash afterall.. and I have gotten the service warning randomly before.. along with a couple times weird stuff like the indictor wont turn off while riding in the rain... So I am hoping the service light was a fluke
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Out of dozens of attempts to start it.. I only got the svc warning once... It does have a Breva dash afterall.. and I have gotten the service warning randomly before.. along with a couple times weird stuff like the indictor wont turn off while riding in the rain... So I am hoping the service light was a fluke
Same with mine on the service warning lights occasionally coming on and also the left turn signal after riding in the rain for extended periods. Sorry about the fuel line coming off. It is a pain to deal with, but glad it is something simple and inexpensive to fix! ;-T
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Key off key on
No service light, normal needle sweep, but hit start button clunk then nothing
Not sure how this fits in with a fuel line off.
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Had a similar problem with a 1998 Ducati ST2. :BEER:
Matt
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Not sure how this fits in with a fuel line off.
Did you miss the part that this is the Breva 1100, "startus interuptus" and all the fun part of the "ECU with it's own mind" kind of thing. That is why I hard wired a starting button under the seat to always make sure I could spin the starter, even though it had the added relay wire fix. Just some of the "character" of those bikes. ;D :BEER:
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Maybe Kckershovel is on to something . Laughing here.
Dusty
Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .
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Ok got my tank off and I'm inside
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/B210AAF0-991D-4382-A7A2-1320E1F8F70F-5094-000005110B4CECD3_zps4934fe56.jpg)
Found that the hose from the intake point had in fact popped off
I reclamped that in place using a screw down clamp instead of the locking clamp
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/3CEE521C-9D71-43E1-BB71-7F05D2608DB9-5094-000005115A15C220_zpsab14c852.jpg)
The hose to barb was a very loose connection. Further odd was that the hose 'upstream' from the filter was a plastic accordion tube... The hose on the intake side looks like air type rubber hose
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/8794EA5A-33EA-44E9-A1DA-39D5006F755B-5094-00000510FF49E54E_zpsbfb6a59e.jpg)
This seemed odd?!? Also it seemed damn near impossible to get the assembly back in the tank.
I look close at the rubber hose on the intake side... It clearly says NOT FOR FUE
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/5F556B71-AE66-4C4B-94F0-BAA35F8D1E3B-5094-00000510F6D851A7_zpsfb22f178.jpg)
So my conclusion is that the Rider's Hill Mechanic not only subbed a piece of hose too short for the application... It's ALSO too large ID to prevent blow-off... AND....
It's not even a hose for use with gas!!!
So looking at this, no way it's the stock config and the mechanic has f-ed me over big time? That's all I can guess??
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Please feel free to chime in I'm going to get more tubing and fix this for good!
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Gates make a fully submersible hose. Its actually made in Turkey! At least the stuff we get here is. I've got a pic somewhere of the bag it comes in. Its expensive, about $45AU for about eight inches, but it works. I took the pic to keep the part #. I'll try and dig it out for you.
Pete.
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It looks like the Gate submersible hose is about $20 per foot here.
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No no no...pay no attention to VDG. ;D We have fuel injection hose here in the *Stites*. It's not cheap, but nothing like that. A few dollars a foot. Be sure to use fuel injection clamps, too. They will have rolled edges to keep from cutting the hose.
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I went to O'riley and got fuel hose that says 50psi working pressure? Will that cut it?
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your screw clamp is the wrong kind of clamp for that line. You need FI clamps, they stay round.
What is the SAE #?? Should be 30R10 I think
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Standard fuel injection hose is only needed for the high pressure loop -- between the pump and the injectors. You've got 2.5bar (~42-45#) potential there. Everywhere else is well within pressure specs for standard fuel hose (<15# unless tank venting gets out of control). I point that out because injection hose is prone to sidewall checkering and cracking more than standard hose is. I replace my high pressure hose about 3-1. So I use good marine-grade stuff (because it's an exposed and often gunky environment) and use the right grade per application.
Fuel injection hose, fuel hose and immersible fuel hose are all different animals. The Gates marine grade submersible fuel injection hose is good for ethynol and 100# pressure, and costs about $20/ft up here. but a foot will do a lot of in-tank work, so the investment is worth the peace of mind. It's a very stiff hose over small (inches) of length and can be hard to fit on oversized spigots without boiling the ends or using a heat gun to soften the tube. It's one reason why folks are unwilling to use it in that tight space and on those fittings, even though it's the right stuff for the job. I can't imagine a shop doing the 'fix' without it.
The accordian hose seems to be a good idea where it's being used -- it's working on mine. I was skeptical of it splitting when I really cinched it up because of its plastic feel, but it is holding up well (since 2008).
The stats are facts per Gates -- all else $0.02
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Well I think I'm done for the night
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/52FEB2E0-5202-4982-8429-0B0645C475DC-228-0000001B79B1A099_zps35fade79.jpg)
I've used Gates hose 5/16" rated to 50psi working pressure.
Banded rolled edge clamps
I left the hose extra long so I can load the filter in 1st.. I will prob zip-tie the hoses to the shaft loosely
Hopefully riding tomorrow!
You guys are awesome thanks for all the help so far
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Get the SAE 30R10 submersible fuel Hose/Fuel Hose. Regular fuel injection hose will turn to mush over a long period of time.
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When my fuel line popped off alongside the highway last fall, my tank was low on gas. Same symptoms, but I couldn't see anything swirling around. This was after the dealer switched out the hoses and clamps when prepping the new bike. Wrong hoses, wrong clamps....
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I didn't know about the *submersible* rating on F.I. hoses. Thanks, RK, and others..
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Get the SAE 30R10 submersible fuel Hose/Fuel Hose. Regular fuel injection hose will turn to mush over a long period of time.
This is fact. When I bought my '07 CalVin used with 7000 on the clock I pulled the tank to check the hoses (thanks WG!) They'd been replaced....with Gates hose rated 30R7 or 30R9 FI hose (don't remember which) and were "this" close to coming off again even with good clamps. VERY soft and delaminating. I bought the 30R10 submersible hose and now after 11000 miles the hoses look like new and are tight.
Terry
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Ok I see you replaced your original replacement clamp with the proper type. A question about the hose: Did you get submersible fuel line hose? YES, that is important. As important as it being fuel injection hose, which of course you did consider.
Please, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. Just save you another bit of aggravation like you have just gone through.
John Henry
edit, I see RK and others have already brought this to your attention, but I think it is worth repeating rather than me deleting my post.
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At this point I've just put it all back together...
I used Gates Barricade hose rated for 50psi
It was only $1.99 /ft at O'Riley and it's fixed with FI hose clamps.
I will prob put about 2-3k miles on the bike this spring/summer...
I will do full fluid swaps, valves, etc at the end of '14 riding season so I'm gonna renew my roadside assistance and hope for the best.
I have a breather hose under there that will also need replacement in a few thousand miles....
So if it can hold for 3k I'll pull the tank and swap it out for full submersible hose with oetiker clamps then!
If not, it only takes an hour or so to pull it, mess with it and replace the tank... Even with roadside tools.
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If not, it only takes an hour or so to pull it, mess with it and replace the tank...
Honestly, I'd rather to it in the comfort of the Guzzi Garage (tm).. After all it's fresh in your mind how to do it, and it will give you peace of mind this summer.
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Honestly, I'd rather to it in the comfort of the Guzzi Garage (tm).. After all it's fresh in your mind how to do it, and it will give you peace of mind this summer.
I have no garage; that's why I tried to schedule an appt with guzzisteve for 3mos and then decided to take it to Riders Hill
It wasn't that I couldn't do the repairs.. It sucks running in and out of the house for tools and working literally on my front steps.
I got the pump assy together last night but didn't put back in the tank..
When I got up this am it was raining all over my 'workspace' and open upside-down tank. I just had plastic wrap around a wadded towel blocking the tank hole!
My whole house stinks of gas and there were piles of various gas-soaked parts tools and towels all around.
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I now have a shop bay secured for work but it's a 7am to 5pm weekday deal. Sometimes the place is slammed w/bodywork and my space goes away. It would be nice to have an understanding wife so I could do a few here at home. I do sneak in a few quickies from time to time if I can get away w/it.
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Well steve I totally got that and no problem to me if you aren't able to fit me in. It's a good thing to be so busy that capacity becomes an issue!
I really wanted to do this service myself anyway ! That's why I wanted to work with steve. Do it myself but expert guidance.
Taking it to the dealer was a mistake.. On many levels. Let's just say that all the work was completed with a simular amount of care & attn as the fuel filter swap :-/
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Not trying to be a PITA.... I know it sucks to work in crummy conditions. But maybe it'd be worth it to get some 30R10 submersible hose now and forget about it. I looked up the Barricade hose and on Gates' site and the note at the bottom says "do not submerse in gasoline".
http://www.gates.com/products/automotive/passenger-car-and-light-truck/fuel-system/barricade-fuel-injection-hose-mpi
Terry
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I do sneak in a few quickies from time to time if I can get away w/it.
Pffft. Who doesn't? ~; ;D
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Do it NOW while you have the pump out! My bike died in the left lane of the slab doing 80. By sheer luck it was clear for me to swerve over to the shoulder. Thank goodness I had two riding buddies to make the repair. I didn't have all the tools needed to remove the pump, and borrowed them from a guy who stopped in a pickup. Murphy's law. NOT FUN!
Cam
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Well back at it after I got all the bits and pieces in the mail
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/4ED1B349-34A3-43BB-8942-180535037D08-2636-00000295ACE67730_zpsc45215e3.jpg)
Oetiker clamp assortment: $17 Amazon Prime
Gates correct hose $18 Amazon Prime
The pliers are Advance Auto 'CV boot clamping pliers' for $8.97
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You won't regret it!
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I do have a question right off the bat...
Where does this drain to?
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/E01E08F2-0307-4537-90C9-EF272560066C-2636-0000029873AE0FBF_zps375210a7.jpg)
I tried to fish it out with a bicycle shifter cable .8mm I think but it wasn't making the bends or either the drain is clogged
I looked on bottom of the tank, I can't see where it exits?
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/81BCFA4B-A63A-4088-9D3D-195113FCC7F0-2636-000002985F5737A0_zps78d3f5e1.jpg)
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Originally, one drain tube goes to the evap system. The second went down toward the ground for an overflow. When I removed the charcoal canister on my Norge, I simply put both hoses into a T fitting and let both head toward the ground.
John Henry
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Ok, NOW I'm ready
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/DF2A40F8-22B7-4513-8918-A7D3FA47BF5D-2636-0000029BAAAD565D_zpsce10ce31.jpg)
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Well back at it after I got all the bits and pieces in the mail
Attaboy.. ;-T ;D
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Are you able to blow through the hoses? I **think** they plugged onto a fitting right there on the bottom of the tank. The internal part routes somehow from the top to where you have the hoses on the bottom. And yes, you may not be able to get a wire through there because of the bends.
John Henry
edit: You could also take some carb cleaner, insert the spray wand into the top and blow some carb cleaner through there if you think they are plugged.
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Are you able to blow through the hoses? I **think** they plugged onto a fitting right there on the bottom of the tank. The internal part routes somehow from the top to where you have the hoses on the bottom. And yes, you may not be able to get a wire through there because of the bends.
John Henry
edit: You could also take some carb cleaner, insert the spray wand into the top and blow some carb cleaner through there if you think they are plugged.
I've read of them getting plugged.. no experience though.
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(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/ED7EA4C3-4662-4DFC-9CB3-09B2EE81905D-2636-0000029EDAF5F9FC_zpsfa47cf09.jpg)
Ok final time
Thanks guys, you rock
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Well she's back together, everything seems tight n right
Unfortunately the lil bitch still won't start.
Cranked twice, didn't kick.. That seemed normal, need to get some gas flowing back thru there..
Tried to start it again.. Clunk
Guess time to search startusinterruptus
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Well I have no joy here I'd be happy to hear any suggestions before I load it up and drive 6hrs round trip to riders hill & ruin my Saturday
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How much gas did you put back in the tank? Fuel filter in proper direction? Plug in power to the pump?
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Do you have tank plugged in(elektrik)? Does it (pump) run, build pressure and shut off?
Do you have spark?
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Air lock or do you need to prime the pump?
Oh - and might be worth giving the battery a good coat of charging. It could be feeling a bit limp after the various attempts to start the bike. Electronics can get a bit "precious" if there is a drop in voltage
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Battery showing fully charged
Yes wiring is plugged in
Can hear pump run when key is turned
Tank is about 1/4 full
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Does the pump build pressure and shut off? If it doesn't crank you could jump across starter from Batt hot lead to spade connector on solenoid, it will crank.
For fuel check, just pull out an injector, it's 1 screw and it wiggles and pops out. See if it's squirting while cranking.
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Battery showing fully charged
Yes wiring is plugged in
Can hear pump run when key is turned
Tank is about 1/4 full
Is the starter engaging and cranking the motor now?
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Is the starter engaging and cranking the motor now?
Sometimes it clunks, sometimes it cranks and wont fire... Sometimes the service light comes on :-/
I'm at work now, thanks for the feedback guys... I will have a few hours of light when I get home to try all your suggestions before I load it up and head for Rider's Hill at 6am ON A SATURDAY WHEN I HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO
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So there was more than one problem here - both fuel (now solved) and electric (still an issue).
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So there was more than one problem here - both fuel (now solved) and electric (still an issue).
And we know that that is extremely unlikely to have made the bike just stop .... so what sort of brainstorming can we do to figure the problem based on the premise (no "ass" in there!) that the two problems are directly related?
Lannis
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Well I got home from work and tried again...
When you turn the key the pump does run for about 2secs then shuts off...
I opened the gas cap again, turned the key and I can see it is still spraying a little gas inside the tank... Nothing like before where it was a gushing stream but deff droplets spraying.
I guess this means it's possible that now, my hose that I installed has come off but damn that doesn't seem likely! I had that sucker clamped down tight and replaced it in the tank very carefully. I really REALLY do not want to take the tank off and pull the pump and check and re-install the pump and mount the tank again! (then wash and dry it because it's covered in gas)
I'm going to go to O'riley and get a bore scope or mirror or something and see if I can look in there and see where the gas spray is coming from
I'm really paranoid that the pump or some fitting is cracked from this now three times in - and - out routine
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If the pump shuts off it is holding pressure, your line did not come off.
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If the pump shuts off it is holding pressure, your line did not come off.
Is that right?? I thought the pump just ran for a few seconds to pressurize the line, then didn't come back on until the ecu detected the engine was running..
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Fwiw, even if the hose isn't off, once the high pressure system is pressurized it regulates additional pressure by bleeding it off, back into the tank, so you should always see some motion in there with the pump running.
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The hose to barb was a very loose connection. Further odd was that the hose 'upstream' from the filter was a plastic accordion tube... The hose on the intake side looks like air type rubber hose
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/8794EA5A-33EA-44E9-A1DA-39D5006F755B-5094-00000510FF49E54E_zpsbfb6a59e.jpg)
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Just a crack at it....... If the underlined quote above is true, would that mean that your filter is in backwards?
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Is that right?? I thought the pump just ran for a few seconds to pressurize the line, then didn't come back on until the ecu detected the engine was running..
That's my understanding, but I have cali's. These fancy-pants bikes might be different. Also, the internal pump in mine (looks identical to yours) has its pressure relief upstream of the injectors and wants to avoid pressure pulses for even, repeatable injector action. So as near as I can do the math, it should be running constantly once the engine is ticking over, and you'll probably see the return side swirling in the tank a little.
If you could get a pressure gauge spliced into the line you could tell a lot. That initial couple of seconds should bring you up to 42-45psi (ish). If not on the first turn of the key, maybe on the second. It should not bleed off immediately when the pump shuts off. Once running it should hold pressure rock-steady -- no wiggle in the gauge.
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The ECU just runs the pump on a timer, or when the motor is spinning. Nothing detects pressure.
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Yeah, pressure regulation is strictly mechanical (spring force).
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Just a crack at it....... If the underlined quote above is true, would that mean that your filter is in backwards?
Good eye! That should say DOWNSTREAM
IT'S FOR SURE ORIENTED CORRECTLT!
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Good eye! That should say DOWNSTREAM
IT'S FOR SURE ORIENTED CORRECTLT!
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Wait a sec, it looks like you have 3 possible hose connections that you could hook up to. You sure that tubing is connected correctly? Shouldn't your smooth tube be connected to the pump discharge?
Is that lower nipple connected to the inlet of the filter a vent, blow off and or possibly recirc for the fuel pump. which nipple is the pump discharged?
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/ED7EA4C3-4662-4DFC-9CB3-09B2EE81905D-2636-0000029EDAF5F9FC_zpsfa47cf09.jpg)
Shouldn't it look something like this:
(http://s4.postimg.org/u3wlw2m2k/P5240364.jpg)
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Can't see the second pic above but looking at the top one it appears that you have the hose connected to the presure relief valve outlet rather than the pump outlet do you not?
Pete
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Can't see the second pic above but looking at the top one it appears that you have the hose connected to the presure relief valve outlet rather than the pump outlet do you not?
Pete
I don't know! Remember the first time I ever saw this thing, the hose had blown off! I put it on the most obvious barb!
There is no close picture or diagram in my service manual of this 'assy
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Rosie's fuel pump assembly. Good catch, MG.. ;-T
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Rosie/013_zpsd6582d64.jpg)
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Boy, it has been a while since I did my Norge, but I am thinking like the others. The fitting on top of the fuel pump near where the electrical wires connect is probably where you need to connect the fuel filter. The one you have the hose on is probably left open. That would be where the pressure can bleed off back into the tank. (The pump itself does not regulate pressure. If it is running, it puts out X amount. It is always pumping that amount. What does not get used on the engine, bleeds back off into the tank.)
John Henry
edit: Per Chuck's pic. (Which was snuck in while I was not looking.) ;D Thanks Chuck, that is what I was referring to.
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This WOULD Explain why the hose installed by the dealer was so short lol
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Well I have the bike all loaded up to go to riders hill this AM
Thanks for looking guys, I will go pull the tank back off and move the hose!
You just saved be about 6hr round trip... Plus a day of sitting in a rocking chair playing on my phone!
I could have this thing running by 10am if this is the answer!
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:pop ;D
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50 minutes to go, get on wi' some work!
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I'm heading to Riders Hill. Wonder if he will be there. ~;
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(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/0E0E4898-06BF-4D34-B96C-27C412B34047-662-000000BDB13108B5_zps04604153.jpg)
Boo-Ya
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That is right. The regulator just blows off freely into the tank...
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That's more gooder! :BEER:
John Henry
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Thanks so much guys! She lives and breathes!
Donation on the way! WG rules!
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Thanks so much guys! She lives and breathes!
Donation on the way! WG rules!
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Like I said the other day.. WG isn't a tech forum, but I've had answers here faster and more accurately than any tech forum I belong to. Even wildly off topic things, like "what year was my snub nosed revolver made?" was answered here faster than the Smith and Wesson forum. WG rules. ;D ;-T
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So there WASN'T an electrical problem... :D
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Summary:
Tech at Riders Hill used wrong hose & insufficient clamping pressure when replacing fuel filter.. Hose blew off after 5mi test ride.
I pulled the fuel pump assy and replaced with correct hose + clamps.. But since I had never seen one assembled, I ran hose to pressure blow-off barb, not the correct pump output.
Pulled & corrected thanks to eagle-eyed WG member MotoGuzzi
Oh yeah I also pushed it .5mi up one of Asheville's signature hills... Loaded & unloaded it solo 4 times.. Drove 12hrs back and forth to RH... And generally stressed out and bombarded you with questions & pics
Grassy Ass boys! I'm going to ride :-)
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Have been following this thread closely. Glad you're up and at em! Sure makes me want to rush over to Riders Hill for service!......NOT!
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Glad your back on the road........... :bike
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Have been following this thread closely. Glad you're up and at em! Sure makes me want to rush over to Riders Hill for service!......NOT!
There used to be a guy that wrenched there that was pretty good, I hear.. ~;
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All's well that ends well...
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Got to say that during all my years on the forum, this has been one of the most "interesting" and exciting threads to follow.
Glad it appears to have turned out well!
I seem to remember that Rider's Hill is one of the most respected Guzzi dealers - what's happened?
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I seem to remember that Rider's Hill is one of the most respected Guzzi dealers - what's happened?
They let GuzziSteve go.
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They let GuzziSteve go.
;-T :+1 ;-T
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In the end, having a fuel line blow off is not that big of a deal BUT trained techs are not supposed to overlook stuff like proper tightening of clamps.
Honestly other aspects of this service were just as troubling tho so I don't know what to think. I know they are very nice friendly folks and have quite a following. But I for one will not return for service.
1. Mechanic did canisterectomy. He just pulled the canister and capped or linked the lines right there? I guess you could say maybe I would want to return it to stock at some point... But to me if the tech Says "once the warranty is out, yeah chuck that thing". Then I would expect him to remove the bracket, pull all the extraneous hoses, and make it neat and tidy!!
2. Before service I went to great pains carefully painting the plastic side faring pieces from the tank. When I too the bike for service, I took the pieces also and ask they re-install when they pull the tank for the fuel filter. Somehow during the brake & clutch fluid swap he managed to dribble brake fluid on my nice fresh parts. Of course brake fluid vs. Rattle can bumper coat is no bueno.
This irritating thing was he did it ON BOTH SIDES!?!?
Wouldn't u think after you ruined one side you would be extra careful on the second side? Jeeze put a towel down.
3. On the GPS pigtail I specifically asked it be wired to an ignition hot wire. I wanted it to turn on and off with the key. He said "don't you want it direct to battery in case you need to use it in a parking lot or while your bike it off?"
I told him don't worry about that, it's got like 6hrs of battery life and if I park my bike for weeks w/gps in the cradle I don't want it to drain battery.
He wired it direct to the battery posts.. AND didn't put a fuse in there because 'I didn't know how many amp fuse to use with your GPS'
Alls well that ends well, but I won't be taking my bike back there.
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Glad you got it going and sorry to hear about your negative experience.
But................ ..... Now that you're a pro at getting that tank off, the plug for the GPS is under the front near where the frame rails converge. It is switched, like you want. I removed the end that was there and soldered an SAE polarized plug in its place. Using the other half of the plug on my GPS harness, where I inserted an in line fuse. I would suggest figuring out which lead is the positive, and use the end of the SAE plug that has the insulated red wire there. That way, if you unplug it altogether, it is less likely that it would short against a ground source.
Also, IIRC, you can probably use a 2 amp fuse for the GPS. Maybe even a 1 amp.
John Henry
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Did it run w/o fail?
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Did it run w/o fail?
Yessir
Only put on about 60mi Saturday, didn't want to head too far afield... But every indication is it's great. Looking like more winter weather here tues, will try to commute to Brevard for work on wed or thurs and then run it long next weekend.
Tomorrow's projects is cutting/Dremeling out the remaining bracket stuff from the canister to make a stash spot for my emergency rain gear.
My side skirting actually looks better the second time I painted them, so him ruining my paint job wasn't all that bad after all
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to make a stash spot for my emergency rain gear
I've wondered how hot it gets in there...let us know!
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I've wondered how hot it gets in there...let us know!
I don't think it will get hot in there? The space is cantilevered out over the rear wheel with plenty of airflow underneath... the muffler is at least 2' away.. and nothing around there to raise the temp? But now I'm curious so I will check it out!
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They let GuzziSteve go.
GuzziSteve is the only reason I flew from Ohio to Georgia, took delivery, rode for 2 days on their lovely roads, and had Steve do the first service before I rode the Griso 8vSE back to Ohio.
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As for fuel injection special hose clamps, I get them @ a local auto store and the special tool to clamp them on/off($9) with. Forget what they're called. My NAPA store doesn't carry them.
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As for fuel injection special hose clamps, I get them @ a local auto store and the special tool to clamp them on/off($9) with. Forget what they're called. My NAPA store doesn't carry them.
I can probably find that info .... give me a minute to look over some records.
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Here's info about the inexpensive tool used to crimp the clamp.
Replacing the questionable fuel filter on the 1200 Sport
PT (Performance Tool) - W83013
CV JOINT BOOT CLAMP PLIERS (ear type)
I believe he got them at Advance Auto
the tool manufacturer address is:
P O Box 88259
Tukwila, WA 98138
1-800-497-0552
www.wilmarcorp.com
Or simply ‘Google’ for W83013
EDIT - 2-20-2010 - FINALLY used these - WOW, they rock, such a simple, elegant tool (ok, maybe not elegant, but man, they do the job very nicely for what, something like 10% of the price of the special German tool
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I used clamps I purchased at NAPA. The label read 'SUR&R - Part Number K2982 - Bar Code # 90453 00275
Hope this helps.
Bob
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The pair I bought had a piece in between the 2 jaws that I removed for it to work better in my application.