Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vasco DG on April 21, 2014, 11:43:43 PM
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I hit an indicated 200KPH on the coast road today and its turbine smooth all the way from 2,000 to redline and really puts a bee up the Norge's arse!
Pete
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Apparently not! :D :D :D
Pete
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PM sent.
POP0404
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Would this work for a Stelvio? After I get it home I'll give it a go.
Thanks for sharing. :BEER:
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Pete
Micky here. i am getting the tappets updated on the Griso (1/2 warranty that is). How will that effect the map Mark and you see me up with?
I know a little about cam profiles, etc.
Micky
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Pete
Micky here. i am getting the tappets updated on the Griso (1/2 warranty that is). How will that effect the map Mark and you see me up with?
I know a little about cam profiles, etc.
Micky
It will work fine. Although the cam profiles are different for flat and roller tappets due to the way they work the actual lift and duration of the valves is identical, or close to, so the engine breathes the same. There are several roller tappet bikes out there running Mark's map with great results.
Pete
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Would this work for a Stelvio? After I get it home I'll give it a go.
Thanks for sharing. :BEER:
At the moment we don't have a Stelvio specific map and there will be differences depending on whether the machine is single O2 or twin O2 and whether it has ABS and/or TC. We just haven't had test mules to try yet.
Pete
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At the moment we don't have a Stelvio specific map and there will be differences depending on whether the machine is single O2 or twin O2 and whether it has ABS and/or TC. We just haven't had test mules to try yet.
Pete
3 types stelvio
single O2 No ABS or conti ABS (can run Griso map)
single O2 Bosch ABS
Twin O2
First two(small tank) can have same map, only difference is speed sensor calibration, is a setting anyone can change with tunerpro, just see what value is in stock map and put same in new map. If you hold mouse over the item in tumnerpro, I put in all different values.
Twin O2, is complete different map, all have TC and ABS. Not only known maps are different also much where we don't know what it is.
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Mark APO just pointed out to me that Doug, (WCB.) is testing a 1O2 map in his Stelvio. I'd forgotten about that.
Pete
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I have a Norge. I don't think anything needs to change, but if it does what you say, sure. Does it void my warranty? Is it reversible if I don't like it? How do I do it? How will my MPG change?
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I have a Norge. I don't think anything needs to change, but if it does what you say, sure. Does it void my warranty? Is it reversible if I don't like it? How do I do it? How will my MPG change?
Completely reversible. Just did a run to check economy average speed 100KPH, bit of town, windy country roads around Bungendore with brief blasts up to 160 but mainly at a 'Sensible 110-120 measured fuel 6.1L/100km.
Pete
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Is there a way to store the map with Guzzidiag and use at a later time. I have Guzzidiag up and running but the read and write program I have yet to install.
Is the map for stock exhaust? I have a 2012, will it work?
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Get reader up and running and you can store the original map. Using writer you can then either overwrite any other map or simply re-write the original back into your ECU.
Pete
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I hit an indicated 200KPH on the coast road today and its turbine smooth all the way from 2,000 to redline and really puts a bee up the Norge's arse!
So this map simply tweaks the speedometer to read too high then.
~;
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:D Actually a stocker will pull 200 easy enough, it was just the 'Fuque me Drunque' rapidity with which it did it and the turbine like smoothness that surprised me.
Pete
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Is there a way to store the map with Guzzidiag and use at a later time. I have Guzzidiag up and running but the read and write program I have yet to install.
Is the map for stock exhaust? I have a 2012, will it work?
Like Pete said it is important that once Guzzidiag is up and running and you decide to change maps that you use the reader to download your map to a PC/laptop for safe keeping. It can easily uploaded back to the bike at a later date if required or may contain certain info like speedo settings that the new map may require.
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Hmmm, you tempt me greatly (strokes non-existent beard). What OS do I need to run Guzzidiag?
Ah, found the answer. OK, I have my hand half way up. I'll get the cable I need ordered (if anyone can point me to a functional one?)
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3 types stelvio
single O2 No ABS or conti ABS (can run Griso map)
single O2 Bosch ABS
Twin O2
First two(small tank) can have same map, only difference is speed sensor calibration, is a setting anyone can change with tunerpro, just see what value is in stock map and put same in new map. If you hold mouse over the item in tumnerpro, I put in all different values.
Twin O2, is complete different map, all have TC and ABS. Not only known maps are different also much where we don't know what it is.
Thanks Paul. So it looks like I can run the Griso map. ;-T
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Well, I am definitely interested. Just have to get onboard with guzzi.diag. Should only take 10 minutes, maybe 15?
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Well, I am definitely interested. Just have to get onboard with guzzi.diag. Should only take 10 minutes, maybe 15?
Even Pete can do it, as not computer savy oilhead. And if you can find youtube, there it has movies from me that show how it works.
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Yup, really, even ma! I'm about as close to computer illiterate as you can get!
Pete
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Wayne O: You ARE a card...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Does this map disable the o2 sensors or just modify the response under light to heavy load?
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Does this map disable the o2 sensors or just modify the response under light to heavy load?
O2 sensors are disabled. Plus some other tweaks.
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I hit an indicated 200KPH on the coast road today and its turbine smooth all the way from 2,000 to redline and really puts a bee up the Norge's arse!
Pete
PM sent.
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You have a map for a stock 07 2V Norge??
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Sorry, down the beach this weekend. Last week was a bit hectic and I didn't get round to sending stuff out. Email me via the board so I have an address to send stuff to. Frans, I know you already have....
Pete
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I'm also interested in a map for the Stelvio NTX. Herky-jerky at around 3000 rpm.
I received my cables, and have saved my stock map to a couple different mediums..
richy
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You have a map for a stock 07 2V Norge??
Yes. PM me or Pete your email address. Does it have ABS?
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I'm also interested in a map for the Stelvio NTX. Herky-jerky at around 3000 rpm.
I received my cables, and have saved my stock map to a couple different mediums..
richy
The 2O2 Stelvio map is still in development. We'll have a test bike soon to finish it off, but in the meantime if you want to try it out , PM me your email address.
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Yes. PM me or Pete your email address. Does it have ABS?
Yes it does.
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Had the bodies rebalanced and the 8VNorge map installed on my Norge GT8V today.
As Pete says: a bee in the arse - from low (2000) to high rpm. No more dips, no more jerks or on-off. Especially around 3-4000 rpm on partial load, the bike used to jerk a lot. That's gone now.
Remember carb riding? Well, almost alike but with extra pepper.
Very happy with the outcome.
Two minor things:
Coldstart is a bit tricky with rather low and unstable idle. Had to set CO to +10 instead of indicated -10. (So perhaps mileage could become an issue, will keep a close eye on that). Is there another way of keeping the idle more stable and up to 1200 rpm? Has something to do with the stepper motor I guess?
Rpm drop much slower, engine brake a bit less. I can live with that.
Question: now that the lambda's are disabled, is there no chance of 'sooting' them? Should they be removed and the holes plugged?
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As mentioned elsewhere we believe the lambda heaters remain operative even if the trim function is off. No sign of shooting on our bikes.
With the erratic idle? Did you re-set the adjustable parameters after the upload along with the TPS?
Pete
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I'm about to install the new map. Cold start and idle are an issue now (pre installation), I'm curious what causes it?
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As mentioned elsewhere we believe the lambda heaters remain operative even if the trim function is off. No sign of shooting on our bikes.
With the erratic idle? Did you re-set the adjustable parameters after the upload along with the TPS?
Pete
Yes we did. Otoh I did a longer trip today and mileage was excellent, at least 1l/100 km less than before. Main reason (imo): bike pulls like a freight train between 3 and 4 thousand rpm, so the need to constantly high rev it to avoid jerking is gone.
Remains the fact that rpm stay up in the 2000 longer before dropping to 1200 idle. Did you have the same experience?
@nikwax: I can assure you that install is more than worthwile. Yes, idle is a bit of an issue, but perhaps I did someting wrong. All the rest is a MAJOR improvement!
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Pete,
How does the gasoline difference matter with US bikes? or does it.
cheers dude,
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Jon there are a heap of folks testing for Mark now including several all over the US. So far AFAIK there have been no fuel related issues although it is recommended to run the highest octane and lowest ethanol available.
Pete
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Plans are to have a new Norge this week, next week at the latest if all goes well. Is this something that would be worthwhile to do with a new from showroom Norge? I had a 1000 V-Strom that from the crate had this horrible stumble in the 3-4k range and it took me nearly 3 years to get a new ECM from Suki which cured it. By then I was done and sold it but it sure did make the bike a completely different animal.
Most of my riding is coastline riding with a few into cities trips and 3 or 4 longer distance rides during the summer. Never having had a Guzzi, would this mod make that much difference to someone upgrading so to speak to a Norge or leave it alone for now?
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Remains the fact that rpm stay up in the 2000 longer before dropping to 1200 idle. Did you have the same experience?
It's the different warm-up table. I wouldn't be concerned unless it does it for more than 15 seconds.
You have a CO of +10 correct? Have you tried it at zero?
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Never having had a Guzzi, would this mod make that much difference to someone upgrading so to speak to a Norge or leave it alone for now?
Only if you have any issues. Make sure they do a proper pre-delivery and that they balance the throttle bodies.
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It's the different warm-up table. I wouldn't be concerned unless it does it for more than 15 seconds.
You have a CO of +10 correct? Have you tried it at zero?
Yes, we gradually went from -10 to +10.
At less than +10, idle was too erratic.
I'm communicating with the bloke that did the tweaking for me, and he suggested to bring it back in for another try.
Btw, idle 'hangs' a few seconds when the engine is hot and during riding (not when it's cold) and then slowly returns to 1200 rpm. My friend asked to check if it does so with the clutch out and/or in. I didn't pay attention, will do so next time. Don't ask me why, he's the genius, I just ride the bl....thing ;D
For the rest: I have a different bike. The first trip in a long time I really felt happy with the bike and remembered why I bought it.
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Yes, we gradually went from -10 to +10.
At less than +10, idle was too erratic.
I'm communicating with the bloke that did the tweaking for me, and he suggested to bring it back in for another try.
Btw, idle 'hangs' a few seconds when the engine is hot and during riding (not when it's cold) and then slowly returns to 1200 rpm. My friend asked to check if it does so with the clutch out and/or in. I didn't pay attention, will do so next time. Don't ask me why, he's the genius, I just ride the bl....thing ;D
For the rest: I have a different bike. The first trip in a long time I really felt happy with the bike and remembered why I bought it.
He balanced it by adjusting the rod linkage? No No no! it must be done with the bell crank at around 4000 rpm then with the air bleeds at idle.
If he did it that way then you have a problem.
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Oh gawd! Did he play with the linkage rod?
Look, instructions for set-up are everywhere on the net and certainly mine and others go at great lengths to explain that the linkage rod should be LEFT A BLOODY LONE!
Please, if people don't know what they are doing. Just don't touch anything and take it to somebody who DOE'S know what they are doing!
Pete
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He balanced it by adjusting the rod linkage? No No no! it must be done with the bell crank at around 4000 rpm then with the air bleeds at idle.
If he did it that way then you have a problem.
No, he did it with the screw at the bell crank (left throttle body) and left the the air bleeds closed, as at around 3-4000 rpm, balance was smack in the middle and as good as on idle.
Afterwards, tps and other parameters were reset.
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No, he did it with the screw at the bell crank (left throttle body) and left the the air bleeds closed, as at around 3-4000 rpm, balance was smack in the middle and as good as on idle.
Afterwards, tps and other parameters were reset.
Phew. Ok, we need to figure out what's going on. As I recall, we didn't have this erratic idle issue with the test bike.
I'd like some other Norge owners with this map to provide feedback.
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idle 'hangs' a few seconds when the engine is hot and during riding (not when it's cold) and then slowly returns to 1200 rpm. My friend asked to check if it does so with the clutch out and/or in.
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Are dear, I believe my 12 Norge was the first to start doing that and despite everyone's best efforts (and believe me they tried) it still continued to do it. The only way I got around it was to extend the air line that runs from the stepper motor to the air box put a small shut off valve (under the seat) in the line, and shut it off once warmed up . This 100% fixes the problem.
I mention this because my bike has the standard tune, as such your problem may not be necessarily related to the new tune, but I am far from any expert
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I'm having a very significant issue with the IAW5xWriter (linux version):
I connected up and made a copy of my factory map with the IAW5xReader. No problem.
Attempt to load the new 8V map. IAW5xWriter erases the ECU, starts to load the new map, and crashes. Repeated that exercise several times, then attempted to reload the factory map, same problem. I've confirmed that the erase worked, as my bike is now dead/unable to start.
Log from Writer:
# tail -f IAW5xWriter_V0.20_x 64_20140621_155509. log
3740ms File: /home/mark/GuzziDiag/Factorymap.bin
4234ms Init Ok
4436ms Diagnostic started
4541ms Baudrate switched
6271ms ED 3B ED 3C
6271ms 60 83 69 27
6495ms Login Ok
6975ms TesterCode written
7196ms ProgDate written
26418ms erased!
Any suggestions as to how to recover from this?
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Hi Nikwax,
Quick way is using a windows computer. If you want to solved it for running on Linux, best send your log and other info to: guzzidiag at gmail.com
Erasing erases the map, but not all in the ecu, so it will still communicate. And is still able to get a new map. So bike won't start, but ecu is not dead.
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idle 'hangs' a few seconds when the engine is hot and during riding (not when it's cold) and then slowly returns to 1200 rpm.
I believe my 12 Norge was the first to start doing that and despite everyone's best efforts (and believe me they tried) it still continued to do it. The only way I got around it was to extend the air line that runs from the stepper motor to the air box put a small shut off valve (under the seat) in the line, and shut it off once warmed up . This 100% fixes the problem.
I mention this because my bike has the standard tune, as such your problem may not be necessarily related to the new tune, but I am far from any expert
Disconnecting the stepper circuit after warm up has been discussed here for quite some time. Many of those "in the know" claim that this is a tuning issue that can be resolved without some kind of stepper circuit bypass. I had a 1200 Sport that was much more refined feeling "switching off" the stepper after warm up. Maybe new information here helps with this situation, but it seems to me from what I have experienced, and from what I have read here, some folks do have a similar issue, and solution, to your's.
Frank
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Map installed, I went for a longish test ride with the Mrs. on board.
Summary: wow!
Really smooths things out. It's like the tune up from heaven. Smooth all across the range, no need to always get to 4k-5k for goodness.
I do notice, when transitioning to engine braking/closed throttle, a slight hesitation at 1500 RPM before dropping down, but it is only for a second or so.
Thanks very much for producing this!!!
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Don't thank me, thank Beetle. All his work. I'm just the messenger.
Pete
PS. If you like it I suggest you bung him some dosh as a donation to development. Somewhere between a pineapple and a grey nurse is generally seen by others as reasonable.
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I would like to try the map for my 2012 Norge. It has roller tappets if that makes any difference. Pete I will PM you I assume that once the bike is connected up to the reader all the blank boxes will populate.
After the canistorectomy and reset valves and do a throttle body balance my bike feels a little cold blooded and needs started a few times and idles low for the first few minutes..
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After the canistorectomy and reset valves and do a throttle body balance my bike feels a little cold blooded and needs started a few times and idles low for the first few minutes..
Well you didn't look at tps value after that work, you should, and if not 4.6-4.8> tps reset with Guzzidiag
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After the canistorectomy and reset valves and do a throttle body balance my bike feels a little cold blooded and needs started a few times and idles low for the first few minutes..
Besides the TPS reset, I've notice a bit of difference on my Stelvio if I disconnect the battery for a minute so that the ECU resets. I suspect it causes the ECU to 'forget' any learned O2 sensor trim values which are messing with the initial idle mixture.
I was getting ready to burn a map with some warm up tweaks, but the power cycle fixed it for me.
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Isn't there an "unlearn" button in Guzzidiag?
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Isn't there an "unlearn" button in Guzzidiag?
why, what did you do?
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Isn't there an "unlearn" button in Guzzidiag?
Do you mean the 'Reset learning parameters'?? Under the TPS reset button.
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What map is this and how do I get it. I am installing a Guzzi Tech muffler and Y-pipe
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What map is this and how do I get it. I am installing a Guzzi Tech muffler and Y-pipe
The map won't work well with this exhaust. Only for stock exhaust or aftermarket pipe with catcon & dB killer.
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I don't know what pipes Todd is selling nowadays but of it is a stainless open mega it will be terribly loud and will badly screw up the fueling.
Pete
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Would this work for a Stelvio? After I get it home I'll give it a go.
Thanks for sharing. :BEER:
I must have a special Stelvio NTX or something. I hit 131 (gps indicated) on my fully bagged NTX with the stock mapping. It appeared to still want to keep pulling too. Maybe the earth and moon were perfectly aligned, and coupled with a nice tail wind, but it did it pretty quick.
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As we keep saying Luap none of the work Mark is doing is aimed at making the bike more powerful or faster. Its about rideability, enjoyment and economy. People who want to BS about how fast and powerful their bikes are can explore other avenues. We're not interested.
FWIW I've hit the rev limiter in top on my Griso a couple of times at an indicated 247kph. It really isn't a pleasant experience, it isn't even fun. Giving it the berries coming out of a turn at 5,500 in second and having the front end get some air is much more fun! Even that though is something best avoided on a great heavy munter like a Griso! After all any energy being used to lift its great flabbiness up isn't being used to make it go forwards!
Pete
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Beetle sent me a zipped file and I appreciate it. But is was a zipped file of a bin file. I do not know enough about computers to know how to get around why my computer will not open a BIN file. I did a stupid thing and downloaded a program (suppposed to read BIN files)that has again infected both my email Interent Explorer account and my Mozilla Firefox browser. I was able to eliminate much of the garbage but am still receiving pop ups and redirects. Malwarebytes is on it but they say 4-5 days to get a case and personal support.
From what I understand a bin file is the digital equivalent of a CD or DVD and that makes sense. I do not know if my computer is missing an important software program that I should have and do not know where to safely acquire the proper software to open a bin file. I would like to open the map and place a copy of it on a thumb drive along with my stock map.
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Waltr, no need to open the bin file with anything other than the IAWWriter program. The bin file is the map.
Unzip it somewhere, start the writer program and browse to the bin file.
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I unzipped the map and moved it to my decktop. Ran the writer program and under and when I click on desktop or any other item nothing happens. No response when selecting anything.
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Have you followed the directions in my howto? CLICKY (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=69168.msg1070347#msg1070347)
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waltr, it goes like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp9ffHHpou4
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As we keep saying Luap none of the work Mark is doing is aimed at making the bike more powerful or faster. Its about rideability, enjoyment and economy. People who want to BS about how fast and powerful their bikes are can explore other avenues. We're not interested.
FWIW I've hit the rev limiter in top on my Griso a couple of times at an indicated 247kph. It really isn't a pleasant experience, it isn't even fun. Giving it the berries coming out of a turn at 5,500 in second and having the front end get some air is much more fun! Even that though is something best avoided on a great heavy munter like a Griso! After all any energy being used to lift its great flabbiness up isn't being used to make it go forwards!
Pete
Oh, now I understand. Sorry, I misread it. I do wish mine was a little smoother from 2K RPM though. ;-T
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Oh, now I understand. Sorry, I misread it. I do wish mine was a little smoother from 2K RPM though. ;-T
Well Luap, thats what the mappings could do. did you try one of mark's?
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Mark that is a great tutorial. As I expected both reader and writer need to be connected to bike to operate. Thanks. I especially appreciate the CO trim details and tying that to idle smoothness, kinda like setting idle air bleed on a carb. Are results pretty quick or do need to run awhile?
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Waltr, usually with in a few seconds of clicking 'Finish', maybe about 20 seconds before it settles down. Seems to be different for each bike.
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Oh, now I understand. Sorry, I misread it. I do wish mine was a little smoother from 2K RPM though. ;-T
There's a bloke in Brisbane who is very keen to bring his 2O2 Stelvio down to Mark so he can use it as a test mule for a couple of weeks. Once that has been done there is every chance he will have something that will effectively address this and other issues. Once that's done we should be able to flick you a map to try. Who around you has cables? If nobody I suggest you get a set of your own.
Pete
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An update on the Norge 8V map.
As I told before, I was extremely happy with the way the Norge behaved after putting Mark’s map. Grunt from low end to redline, no more snapping on partial load (I hope you get my terrible English), no more need to use the clutch at roundabouts or slow turns – I suppose you know what I mean.
My dealer rode the bike and said: wow, that’s a different bike, too bad MG cannot do that.
The one thing that slightly kept bothering me, was the hanging at 2000 rpm before very slowly returning to idle (clutch out or in).
(Btw, I searched the net and discovered that MG Nederland has covered the subject of hanging at 2000 rpm rather extensively, so I was not the only one with that problem. Which could mean that the problem had nothing to do with the new map)
Anyway, my friend who did the tuning and installed the map, called me back in.
First thing, he reinstalled the previous ‘official’ mg map (the latest), but with lambda’s off and CO on 0. The bike did not run as smooth as with Mark’s map, lost a lot of it’s grunt, more popping at deceleration, weaker throttle respons. And most important, rpm kept hanging at 2000 rpm as well?! The plus was it slightly ran better at a constant 3000 rpm, with almost no vibrations. (Mark’s map gave a bit more vibes)
So back the garage.
Now Mark’s map with CO on 0 instead of previously +10.
Not good, erratic idle with the risk of stalling at a stop.
Back to the garage.
Same, but CO at +5.
And now I have a setting that looks like a very satisfying compromise between before and after.
Hanging around 2000 rpm is a lot less, a slight hesitation around 1500 rpm but overall ok and nice grunt throughout rpm range.
My quick conclusion (I know nothing about mechanics whatsoever), is that fuell mixture is a critical factor. And the reason of the hanging rpm's remains unanswered, which was also the conclusion of the Dutch board, if I read well.
Paul, perhaps you could chime in?
I had to go home, so I could not make enough km’s for a full report, but I’ll keep you posted if interested.
If this comment sounds like rubbish to you wizards, I’ll shut my mouth.
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Just thinking loud:
I have the hanging at 2k/1.8k since I use Marks map that has a griso 803 base map. When I goto nutral the idle drops to 1200. So maybe the idle speed regulation is only active in Nutral gear? When the mixture is a little to lean with closed throttle, in nutral the idle regulation makes it richer to drop the rpm. So adding a bit fuel at 4.6-4.8 tps, from 2200 to 1000rpm might solve it.
I just compared original and modded map, and see that in that range it's much leaner due to taking fuel away to solve the popping. So it could be the explanation.
But the thing was first happening with the 1200 sport/breva maps, that were not modified.
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Beetle, first off many many thanks for this. This is a very nice upgrade for the Norge.
I have a related question: my exhaust collector box sounds to be falling apart....if I replace it with Todd's y pipe, would that mess up the fueling? I've no idea how much resistance to flow the collector contributes.
And again: thanks!
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if I replace it with Todd's y pipe, would that mess up the fueling?
I don't think so. I've not seen inside the collector, but I presume it is baffled instead of being just a big empty box. I can compensate for any noticable changes by modifying the map if you are able to give me specifics of what the difference is, such as vibration, flat spots etc at the affected rpm's.
BTW, it's my pleasure to make your Guzzi more enjoyable.
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frans, keep the feedback coming. This 2000 rpm hang is interesting. We did not get it on our test bike, but if there is anything I can do to fix it with the map, I will certainly try.
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We have a lot of hills here, I have one road I ride that is a steep uphill with lots of tight turns, first and second gear work. On really tight turns, I used to have to fan the clutch so as not to stumble through the turn. Not anymore, the power delivery is so smooth even at lower revs. Fantastic stuff.
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I just wanted to get back and let everyone know that when I topped off the tank before a ride today I got a real world 45MPG. I will say that I tend to ride the bike differently with this map. I shift a little earlier and tend to be in a taller gear. The stock map tended to want to be wrung out a little more, either way the mileage is pretty much the same as stock. If I want to put on the steam the bike goes like snot from 3300 RPM on up. Really pulls like a freight train.
It feels a little soft around 3K though. If I had to say I would say it feels a little rich, all this is with smaller throttle openings. Riding the PA backroad two lanes I find myself often at 40-60MPH. Get the bike on the highway and start to open her up and this all goes away. Can anyone tell me if Fuel Trim could have any effect on this part throttle response? My idle is good and stalling is never an issue. I believe I understand what some have described as idle hanging at a higher RPM but since this only happens pulling up to a stop and in the short time it takes to stop idle is back to 1200.
I have one other FI related question. As you run with a specific map does the bike adapt without the O2 sensors. I was wondering if this is why I am getting better and better milage or is it me that is adapting?
Thanks,
Walt
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Two other general questions regarding guzzidiag:
Under 'preferences' for my 2012 US Norge with roller tappets should I select 1200GT or 1200GTL? I have been running with GTL
Whenever I select CO Trim and go back to make a change the previous value is never indicated except one time when I went back it was listed at -4.
I assume you set the value and then press FINISH. Also if I go back to my Measurements screen from CO Trim everything is locked up and does not read until I disconnect and re-connect. One time going from CO TRIM to measurement the engine temp read 1153 C. Now that is hot.
I would like to ad that I always disconnect at the end of a session and then press quit.
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It's just you adapting. The O2 sensors are off, so there is no trimming at all.
With regard to CO trim, you must click finish to save the value.
I hope to get hold of the test bike again to tidy up any small issues.
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Tony will probably be up for that Mark.
Pete
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It's just you adapting. The O2 sensors are off, so there is no trimming at all.
With regard to CO trim, you must click finish to save the value.
I hope to get hold of the test bike again to tidy up any small issues.
And small issues it is. Read back my enthousiastic reports on this thread. Apart from the little issue of a bit 'lazy' idle (slow to return), nothing but plusses. Bike is pulling like a freight train throughout the rpm range and with better mileage.
Beetle, Paul and all guzzidiag developers, thank you very much (and too bad MG does not supply an adequate solution themselves).
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Running highway at 60 to 90 mph and the wind to my back I got 48 MPG on a non stop 147 mile ride. Seems to do better mpg staying around 75-80 mph. This was the sweet spot with the stock map also. Coming back into the wind I got 42 mpg.
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Subscribed for when a 2012 Stelvio map comes out. I have mine running fine but it could always be better. ;-T
Marc
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All the 8V Nrges are the same. If you want the map? PM me yer address. Mark is in Japan and is probably busy, I can flick it to you easy.
Read the guzzidiag instruction thread, follow the dots.
Pete
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Subscribed for when a 2012 Stelvio map comes out. I have mine running fine but it could always be better. ;-T
Marc
Me too. Just swapped my Breva 1100 for a 2012 Standard Stelvio. Very nice. Runs well, but everything helps.
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I have read all of this thread and I am tempted. My Norge seems to be behaving well, 7000 kms on a new 2012. Smooth throttle good idle. Only thing I have noticed is popping on decel. Milage seems to be a consistent 40 mpg. Don't know the top end, have once hit 195 km/h good enough for me. The one important question, to me, is warranty. I realize the original map can be saved and re loaded, but, can this be detected? If this were done, new map installed then erased and original reloaded, anyone know of a time stamp or other evidence of the owner messing with the ecu map? Has anyone had problems with Piaggio honoring warranty after some mapping? Not that I'm expecting to need warranty...
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In the U.S. warranty cannot be denied because of modifications unless it can be proven that the modifications caused the problem.
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Mine still pops on decel after remapping. I like the sound. And what he said about warranty.
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To be honest I don't know if an aftermarket map will show up when you plug in PADS or Navi? I'll check. Generally I don't use the factory tooling much for Guzzis any more as Guzzidiag is so much simpler and more intuitive and won't brick yer ECU if it drops its bundle mid upload like the factory tools will!
As for whether it would affect your warranty? No idea, I imagine a lot of that would depend on your relationship with your shop. It would also depend on the quality of the map/fueling modifications. A lot of the aftermarket 'Solutions' take an aldehyde sloppy-rich map and make it richer. This isn't good and can cause damage.
Pete
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I have read all of this thread and I am tempted. My Norge seems to be behaving well, 7000 kms on a new 2012. Smooth throttle good idle. Only thing I have noticed is popping on decel. Milage seems to be a consistent 40 mpg. Don't know the top end, have once hit 195 km/h good enough for me. The one important question, to me, is warranty. I realize the original map can be saved and re loaded, but, can this be detected? If this were done, new map installed then erased and original reloaded, anyone know of a time stamp or other evidence of the owner messing with the ecu map? Has anyone had problems with Piaggio honoring warranty after some mapping? Not that I'm expecting to need warranty...
Just curious, if it's not broken then...?
Some very knowledgeable individual gave me advice to not be in a hurry to mess with things unless it needs it.
My new 2013 pops ever so slightly on decel but so do a lot of other things like Triumph sports cars, a few Alfas that have been in the family (recently and decades ago) so that isn't bad company unless it hurts the engine. Like yours, it runs smoothly, powers from idle up and is returning good fuel economy, all that on a new engine.
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As I've tried to explain many times the backfiring does absolutely no harm. All it is is the result of uncombusted fuel/air mix that has passed through the engine burning in the exhaust pipe. Yes, it can be addressed but it does no harm.
As for mapping changes? Not all factory maps are created equal and it should be remembered that the 'Map' itself contains many more parameters than just the fueling. Having said that some of the factory maps aren't really too bad, (The 2O2 lambda Stelvio map for instance is one of the better factory maps. Yes it can be improved on but its not awful. The Griso 8V maps in comparison are awful!). What to my understanding is the major problem is that all the factory maps are silly-rich and then depend on the lambda sensors to trim them back lean enough to meet emissions regs. Problem is once you're out of the closed loop area of the map you are still riding around on a sloppy-rich map. Hence the less than stellar fuel economy!
What Mark does, (And I'm sure he'll chime in when he has time-out from laying waste to Japan. Since he got there they've had a super-typhoon and another 6.8 mag. Earthquake ;D) is turn off the Lambdas so the map is open loop and then using a host of inputs including dyno runs and EGA but NOT those exclusively as well as feedback from end users will change and alter various parameters within the map with the aim of achieving a result that means the engine performs smoothly and efficiently with no dips or bumps in the power or torque curves.
As he has said repeatedly neither he nor I are interested in chasing more outright power. The aim is 'Streetable' for want of a better word, performance and decent economy. One of the great myths propagated endlessly is that all the bikes are mapped up very lean to 'Meet Emissions Standards'. While when the lambda/s are on and the ECU is trimming the fueling in closed loop then yes, there will be areas where the mix will be super-lean and its this that makes for the Herky-jerky ride at low speed, small throttle openings, especially with bikes like G8's that aren't tuned right. (Also the Grisos because of their different length header pipes need quite different fuel maps for each cylinder. The delta fueling on the factory maps are a complete clusterf@ck.). Once out of the CL area though most, if not all, of the factory maps go rich, rich, rich. ADDING fuel is the last thing you generally want to do but with the majority of aftermarket map-modifier products this is exactly what they do.
The most work that has been done by Mark has been for the G8 and he has got a map built for this bike with a Mistral Hi-Pipe without dB killer, (The same set up used on both his and my bike.) that is outstanding! (the warm up map still isn't perfect but once warm its tremendous!) and a further 'Generic' map for an aftermarket can with cat-con and dB killer that is similarly outstanding. Other maps are being tweaked and developed as time and circumstance allow and are 'Works in progress'. The great thing is that with access to Guzzidiag the swapping of maps is no longer the province of a *Special* few and map sharing is becoming commonplace and CHEAP, something dear to all Guzzisti hearts! ;D
Anyway, enough banging on from me on a Sunday morning. Now the frost has melted and its above zero I might tog up and take the Griso for a flog around the houses! Thank heavens for heated gear and a 600Watt alternator! :D
Pete
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As Pete says, popping on decel is harmless. If you're otherwise happy, there's no need to change.
As for warranty, if you have a good relationship with your dealer they may not be concerned. If you are really paranoid about such things you can reflash the original map. If you saved the text file the reader creates when you backed up your factory map, you can reflash the original date and name of the engineer. How are they going to know?
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I think I learned more about mapping in that post than all the other stuff combined, Pete. Thanks for that info. I guess I am pretty gun-shy about warranty stuff after a battle with Volvo Penta over two DPH outdrives that grenaded...I'm on my 3rd one at $14,000.00 each. Warranty has been a rather important detail. Anyway, I bought a diagnostic kit from Todd before I actually had the bike. ( very sad news about him, big loss for everyone) I also have guzzidiag, but not the correct cables. I have read a lot about mapping and truly expected my Norge to behave rather badly, with erratic idle, jerky throttle, poor gas mileage and backfiring. I too was under the mistaken impression that Guzzi purposely leaned the crap out of the US bound bikes to meet California's uber strict laws. I even called Piaggio in New York to ask them if they mapped Canadian bound bikes differently. Guess how much info I got on that. I was going to have mapping done at MI Seattle 2 days after I bought the Norge, but the bike ran fine. So far the only thing that happens is popping on decel. Haven't done a canisterectomy either. So, I like the idea of a better map for street, however, I wonder if I should wait until I have different pipes. I'd like a bit more sound from the Norge, and changing that would, from what I can tell, require a different fuel map. The packages that GuzziTech were offering were enticing, exhaust, air and mapping, but...who knows now. At any rate, as Canguzzi asks, why fix it if it ain't broke. I think I need to figure out the right pipes and any other mods like air box changes then do mapping...
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I think you may be confusing your Todd's. No worries, I'm sure the one past caring not only wouldn't care but would have a chuckle.
As for the whole issue of re-mapping? There is a lot to be gained. There are also a lot of different options and opinions as to what is 'Good' or 'Right'. At the end of the day one pays ones money and takes ones choice but the laws of physics reign supreme.
If you are happy though? Stick with it! Hard experience and a lot of cash has taught me that even if it is rolled in glitter a turd is still a turd and you can't polish it. The only way to fix it is to re-design and rebuild the turd. ;D
Pete
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Well, I am embarrassed. I did indeed have the 2 Todd's confused, some basic research revealed my error. Apologies to anyone offended, my bad for making snap assumptions.
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I just got around to messing with the CO setting. I was experiencing hard starts when the motor was cold and rough idle, and guessed that it might be running too rich. Which turned out to be incorrect. I went to -5 on the CO adjustment and could hardly keep it running, so back to zero, then +5. Much better so far.
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Went to +15 on the co trim and cold start and hot and cold idle are perfect. I know this is not a scientific test but overall sound and running has been perfect even at part throttle operation.
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Went to +15 on the co trim and cold start and hot and cold idle are perfect. I know this is not a scientific test but overall sound and running has been perfect even at part throttle operation.
What's your economy like?
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Could someone explain what all changing the CO does? I'm clear that it impacts warm idle. Does it have across the board impact as well? Cold start/idle? Running mixture?
And, am I after "lean best idle" or something akin to "1/4 turn richer than lean best idle" from carburetor days?
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Could someone explain what all changing the CO does? I'm clear that it impacts warm idle. Does it have across the board impact as well? Cold start/idle? Running mixture?
And, am I after "lean best idle" or something akin to "1/4 turn richer than lean best idle" from carburetor days?
It's akin to adjusting the carbon monoxide level without using a gas analyzer. Well, you could use an analyzer. :D
With the 5AM ECU, it affects everything - Cold start, running idle, and yes, it does affect the entire rev range. However, it's effects are non-linear and it has the greatest effect at low revs.
Lean best idle is pretty much what your are looking for.
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After setting CO trim to plus 15 fuel economy dropped 2-5mpg. It seems as if roll on is sluggish also. Dropping fuel back to plus 2 the engine sounds and runs great when rolled on, has a very addictive baawaaa when it hits 5k. Did not do this when richer.
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After setting CO trim to plus 15 fuel economy dropped 2-5mpg. It seems as if roll on is sluggish also. Dropping fuel back to plus 2 the engine sounds and runs great when rolled on, has a very addictive baawaaa when it hits 5k. Did not do this when richer.
The "baawaaa" reminds me of what Kawasaki 2 stroke triples used to do when the throttle was wacked full throttle from less than half. Little did we now it was actually a slight hesitation before the power came on clean. Sounded terrific though.
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Any idea what controls idle speed during warm up? My Norge runs great warmed up, but cold starting is a chore and it barely idles during warmup. Is this a mapping function, or is there an external device/control for idle speed?
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I would love to try the map. PM sent. Thanks
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Any idea what controls idle speed during warm up? My Norge runs great warmed up, but cold starting is a chore and it barely idles during warmup. Is this a mapping function, or is there an external device/control for idle speed?
Idle is controlled by the steep per motor. This is essentially an electronically controlled air valve. The ECU reads what the engine speed is, if it tries to drop below 1200 RPM it will open the stepper to add more air and lean the mixture so engine speed increases, if it tries to rise above 1200 it will cut air off to lower the engine speed. Also when cold there is a cold start mat that enriches the mixture on a sliding scale for two minutes.
If your bike isn't idling when cold check that only one of the air bleeds is open. Both bleeds open confuses the stepper. Having said that some 8V Norges are simply very cold blooded.
Pete
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niwax, what version are you running? I did an update yesterday for Waltr who's Norge seems very cold-blooded. I've just flicked it to Pete.
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niwax, what version are you running? I did an update yesterday for Waltr who's Norge seems very cold-blooded. I've just flicked it to Pete.
Does "WLoad1039T" tell us anything? The checksum is 0XF116. It was sent to me about two months ago.
I've upped my CO to +5 from 0, I'm thinking I may have gone too rich.
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F116 is the very first iteration. There's been two since. PM me your email and I'll flick it to you.
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Have you guys developed improved maps for the 2-valve Norge also? I have an '07 that I wouldn't mind improving performance and/or economy on. I've ordered a set of cables from LonElec.
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Have you guys developed improved maps for the 2-valve Norge also? I have an '07 that I wouldn't mind improving performance and/or economy on. I've ordered a set of cables from LonElec.
The map I got from Beetle really improved my 07 Norge. I'm sure he will have one for you. The cables from LonLec work very well. The whole system is great. ;-T
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John, PM me your email address. I'll send you the 2V Norge map.
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Hammic, new map, hot and toasty, fresh out of the oven! Just emailed. Let Me and Mark have feedback please.
Pete
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I thought I would post here also. Received the mew map today and installed it. Had only a brief chance to ride before work. One thing I noticed right off the bat was more power immediately off idle. Just letting the clutch out even without adding throttle the bike just wants to go. The original map was much improved in the lean lurching on and off throttle while moving slow and this map is even better. This latest map likes to be run above 3K, where the first map was content to shift early. This feels more 'natural' for this bike. Can't wait to put a few miles on with this latest map. I feel for a given speed that throttle opening is less now and that should correlate to improved fuel mileage.
Walt
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I'd just like to say that using the term 'More Power' is probably misleading. While there may at certain points in the map be a result of greater power and torque the main issue that Mark's maps are aimed at is greater 'Drive/Rideability' and enjoyment.
Its very easy to take a machine that is poorly tuned or mapped and simply get it running well and the difference can make one believe that its suddenly much more 'Powerful'.
Seldom is this the case.
What can be achieved is the removal of the compromises built in to cheaply meet emissions regulations that will impact on performance. Nobody apart from morons wants to deliberately waste resources or produce filth. The problem faced is that legislation is a 'Broad Brush' and in that respect anything that has to be applied *Equally* will always result in compromises. With something like internal combustion engines the legislation is bound to favour the *Majority*, ie! conventional multi-cylinder, single or double overhead cam motors with side draft or semi down draft breathing configurations with an eye towards economy rather than performance.
Sure you *Can* chase outright power with an engine but any production engine is going to be engineered conservatively. This is particularly true of an engine like the Guzzi 8V which uses a variety of remarkably *Unconventional* strategies to do what it does. To really extract more outright power though you will have to re-cam and change a host of other aspects of the motor and in doing so you will rob it of its strong points as a 'Road' motor rather than a 'Race' one.
If Mark's latest map *feels* more powerful it may well be, slightly, but most of that perception will be due to the fact that the motor is no longer fighting the laws of physics and chemistry and can perform as it should. The irony is that in doing so it will contravene various emissions regs designed with a broad brush but will actually use less precious fossil fuel and in the long term produce less filth than one 'Tuned Clean' by artifice!
At the end of the day trying his solutions will cost you nothing more than a set if cables, a software download and the encouragement to donate to first of all Paul and Beard who developed the brilliant software and to Mark to help cover his costs. I would also encourage people who are using maps supplied and developed by others like Dave, (Molly here.) to fling them a quid too. None of these people ask for payment or suggest any *Obligation*. To me though it just seems like the right thing to do.
Pete
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PM sent, thanks! I'll load it up this weekend if available.
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PM sent. Got my cables from the highly recommended source, fast delivery and hassle free transaction.
I'm finally headed out on my delayed trip (about 2600 miles) and I can give it a good try.
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Installed the new map yesterday and went for both solo and two up rides over a variety of terrain. Start up was much easier with hot or cold motor. It is hard to quantify the overall difference between the new map and the gen 1, my wife and I both agreed that is feels more refined. I like it very much. Thanks again for your work on this!
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A couple more short stints with the new map. What I described as power has more to do with how immediate the throttle response is just off idle. I am not referring to a lurching or jerky throttle response but more that a feeling that even at in town slow speeds the throttle response is immediate, like as if there is zero hesitation. Previous map had a soft feel to it ridden in the same manner. If I could describe it in other terms it is as if the bike had a well tuned CV carb with accelerator pump.
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Waltr, yes, I agree. I find myself riding with a much lighter hand
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Just loaded this new map from Pete, great improvement. Cold start and throttle response is spot on, kudos to Pete, Mark and others for helping us folks that are not as keen on producing these maps and making are beloved Guzzi's run so fine. ;-T
Also, can anyone PM me info on where I could throw a few $ there way for there work.
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Waltr, yes, I agree. I find myself riding with a much lighter hand
I just had my throttle cables adjusted today, and that made a big difference in response. So now I'd say that this map is perfect and completely transforms the Norge.
Well, the map and new suspension. Fantastic experience!
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Just back from a two week trip with the Frau and luggage, the motor and chassis were superb. Plenty of power, even passing uphill without massively downshifting. I had to run a tank of no name regular gas and was not able to provoke preignition.
Happy happy happy!
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Excellent.
Would those with one of my Norge maps PM which map you currently have, I can let you know when map updates have occurred. I've just sent Waltr a new map with some minor changes to the main fuel map plus a higher rev limit.
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Just loaded this new map from Pete, great improvement. Cold start and throttle response is spot on, kudos to Pete, Mark and others for helping us folks that are not as keen on producing these maps and making are beloved Guzzi's run so fine. ;-T
Also, can anyone PM me info on where I could throw a few $ there way for there work.
No credit to me. I'm just the messenger. Its all Mark's doing.
Pete
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No credit to me. I'm just the messenger. Its all Mark's doing.
Pete
Still appreciate your messengering (Is that a real word? :D) and the knowledge you supply, Pete.
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BigBlock and nikwax, if you want the map update, please PM me your email addresses.
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PM sent
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I've PM'd as well.
What is the difference with the new map?
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New map has changes to the delta-fuel map, main map fuel cut-offs have been changed and the rev limit increased to 8500.
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Got the map, thanks Mark. Hope to load it later this week. Will let you know how she runs.
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Hello Pete
New to Guzzi and the forum - some mechanical ability and tech savvy ... where do I get this map from and how much is it? willing to give it a try.
Have saved bike's map using Guzzidiag.
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Sorry, replied to your PM before I saw this. Send me an email address and I'll flip you the map. If you like it? Donate something to Mark to help defray development costs.
Pete
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I have loaded up the latest map. First, I had a great new bike setup and the first service was also very well done. The Norge runs a smooth as silk mirrors are clear at all RPMs and I did not experience stuttering, roughness or anything like that. I did notice that the throttle required more twisting to move along but to be clear, it wasn't that the bike was slow by any means, just that the throttle was not very sensitive.
I followed the instructions to the letter. Here are my observations:
*The throttle position is at 4.80 (engine off of course) where as with the stock map it was 4.70. A TPS reset results in 4.80, not 4.70
* Low RPM is somewhat rougher than stock. Low RPM to me is from idle to 3k. There is some shuddering between 2500 and 3000 that was not present with the stock map. This only happens when the throttle is opened more than halfway but with the stock map there wasn't any regardless of how open the throttle was.
* At 3000 there is less what I call throbbing or very low amplitude "Guzzi" vibes. Now there is a sort of buzz akin to what I've experienced with an in-line 4. That is new. This continues to around 3500 after which it leaves for the most part.
* At 4000 with no acceleration load, the right hand grip buzzes, this is new also. The stock map was dead with no buzz at all. This buzz continues to around 6000 after which it is absent.
* Above 4000 to around 6000 the engine seems smooth but not as much as the stock map. The feel is that there is more going on enginewise whereas with the stock map the engine seemed more relaxed and settled.
* Above 6000 I can discern no difference between the stock map and this latest release.
General observations: The oil cooler fan comes on more often. I took the Norge out with the stock map for a 30 mile run. This is a combination of a short through town trip with 5 stops not involving lights so basically stop, look, go. Then there is about 15 miles of country road with a speed limit if 55 mph and two stops. Then 2 miles of small city with one red light to wait, 4 stop signs. Following that there is freeway riding with posted limits at 55-65 mph. I rode between 55 and 85 with a dash up to 90, taking an off ramp to a stop light. Then easy small town roads with minimal traffic to a stop, idle for 30 seconds, down a gravel drive and engine off.
With the stock map run both before and after the latest release map, the oil cooler fan never came on. In between those runs with the new map, the fan came on after the freeway ride at the stop light and then after the idle at the driveway entrance and then on after engine off for a short time. With engine off right after idle and run down the driveway, the temp reading was 125c. I did not take a temp reading with the stock map but will do so since I am reverting back to stock for now.
Sitting at the light, it felt as if the engine were running warmer than usual. I can't say with 100% accuracy but next run I will shoot the engine with a laser temp reader to compare.
Also, after the freeway portion while at the light, the right cylinder seems to miss just once. I could feel it. It was like the right side turned off and on really fast.This never happened with the stock map, before or since. I've now ridden the stock map after putting it back in and this has not happened again. Perhaps an anomaly?
I did feel the engine more willing to rev in that the tach needle seems to jump quicker between 3500 and 6000 rpms. It isn't that with stock it wouldn't do the same, just that with the new map the throttle seemed more responsive. I could not detect that the Norge was faster or quicker but then those things aren't something I care about much. The more responsive throttle was welcome and it wasn't jerky at all.
Lastly, the throttle position no longer resets to 4.70 and now sits at 4.80 even with the TPS reset. Is there a way to get that back to 4.70?
Update: The throttle position now shows between 4.80 and 5.00 even with the stock map reloaded. It did not do this before, it was 4.70 static. The number jumps from 4.80 to 5.00 back and forth. I'll take it for another ride and see if it settles down afterwards.
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Just going through the notes: The idle is lower at 1100 which with stock it is 1250 even.
Added to above observations. I'll report the ride after another stock map reload later today.
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How certain are you on the TB balance and the rest of the tune? The buzziness and vibration sound tune related to me. Interesting.
Oh, and thank you for the comprehensive feedback. It makes issues a lot easier to address.
Pete
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How certain are you on the TB balance and the rest of the tune? The buzziness and vibration sound tune related to me. Interesting.
Oh, and thank you for the comprehensive feedback. It makes issues a lot easier to address.
Pete
I just got back from another run over the same exact route using the stock map. This time the traffic was a bit more and the ambient temps are higher by about 10-15 degress F.
Idle is back up to 1250 now and rock steady. From higher RPMs, it settle down like right now and sits steady. I think the one side miss with the new map must have been a one time thing.
Gone are the buzzes and it has returned to nearly vibe less running. The shudder below 3k even with wide open throttle is gone. The right bar is now as quiet as the left, very noticeable from the non-stock map.
I do have more popping with the stock map but that never bothered me anyway, last thing I want to sound like is a Honda Accord. ;)
The slower throttle response is back but in traffic it is sort of easier for through traffic navigation. That can very well be just a matter if getting used to it. I could not detect any slower acceleration though, it still runs as fast with either map. I plan to get some GPS readings to confirm that.
Were I to quantify throttle response better I would say the new map is crisper while my stock map is muted although not paying attention to that, the actual acceleration is equal as far as I can tell.
The engine temps are the same, 125c but the ambient as I said is also 10-15 degrees F higher now so how to compare that? Fan did kick on just as I parked.
My throttle position is still 4.80 instead of 4.70. I did not manipulate the throttle when I first loaded the new map, it just changed from 4.70 to 4.80 and hasn't returned to the lower number. Could be anything I guess and I'm not sure how much difference that bit makes.
In summary and I am trying not to draw conclusions, just provide observations (and they apply only to my bike) I rode the map it came on 400-500 mile days and vibes were never a hint of concern. Upon loading the new map, the difference was noticeable right as I left the driveway.
I do have the map you sent me prior to the latest update, I'll load that tomorrow and run the same route to see what happens.
As luck would have it though, as the outside temps got higher, the bigger bugs came out. Darn if one didn't wait until I just flicked up the face shield for a second to wack me square in the nose. Do they aim or just happen to manage that? ;D
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The slower throttle compensation was built in after I had complaints of 'abrupt' throttle in traffic and by some folks who cornered on a trailing throttle. I use it on all 8V maps now. If anyone prefers the old style throttle, I can fix that.
4.7 or 4.8 TPS makes no difference.
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The slower throttle compensation was built in after I had complaints of 'abrupt' throttle in traffic and by some folks who cornered on a trailing throttle. I use it on all 8V maps now. If anyone prefers the old style throttle, I can fix that.
4.7 or 4.8 TPS makes no difference.
Thanks for that info on the TPS. IMHO, I like the stock brand of throttle response because it makes for a more relaxed riding style. If I were on a Griso for example, quicker response is better I'd imagine.
I do think that the short runs I made are not indicative of what observations I might have over a longer period of time. I want to really make that point so that anyone reading my comments takes them as a snapshot, not the whole movie.
I have the rest of this week and through next to run the map. I was thinking of doing it a day at a time instead of ride/switch map/ride method. I did try to keep notes of even little details and when doing that sometimes little things you never cared about come up.
The word I was looking for was "cleaner" as far as throttle response goes. Your map is quite a bit "cleaner" than the stock map is that makes any sense. Sort of like someone talking with a mouth full of popcorn as opposed to not which is what I probably sound like right now so I am going to shut up and go ride again. ;D
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I just loaded the new map yesterday and drove around town a bit to get first impressions:
Cold started right off. I don't think the bike has ever done that. Nice!
Idle speed is around 1100 rpm.
The hanging return to idle (whatever that is called) seems a bit more pronounced. Maybe that was just when the motor was cold?
My first reaction to driving around town was "smooooooooooooooth". I really had that sense of turbine winding smoothness up through the revs.
Again, many thank for creating and improving this. It truly is like being gifted a new bike.
I'll see if I can get some serious backroad time in today with my passenger. I have a winding uphill route that is fun and useful.
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Loaded the same map nikwax did a few days ago and have come up with the same results as he did. Cold start is spot on as is driving around town or low rpm situations (parking lots etc..) Still a little decal pop but nothing I'm concerned with. Its great riding this bike when she runs this good. Like nikwax says it truly is like being gifted a new bike.
Again thanks to Mark and the rest of the crew who puts their time and effort into these maps. ;-T
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The hanging return to idle (whatever that is called) seems a bit more pronounced. Maybe that was just when the motor was cold?
This seems to be a problem that affects some bikes. I haven't yet figured out what's causing it. Would you please let me know if it occurs when the engine is hot?
Anybody else getting idle hangs?
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This seems to be a problem that affects some bikes. I haven't yet figured out what's causing it. Would you please let me know if it occurs when the engine is hot?
Anybody else getting idle hangs?
It only happens on mine before its up to temperature Mark. I can ride quite a long distance in cool weather and the idle will continue to hang until I've done a bit of stop/start traffic and the oil temp has come up. It has to be associated with the stupid over-cooling issue.
Pete
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Pete, do you think it's the stepper causing it? If it is, we're kinda buggered, because it's parameters aren't editable. yet.
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Stepper seems logical but could it be a temporary lean condition in that 'Sort of warm up' area before the engine reaches 95*C? I do tend to think stepper though because my experience is that when I arrive in Queanbeyan, about 25km from home, I clutch it at the first roundabout and the idle hangs at about 2,000. Accelerate round the roundabout and on to the next one up by all the hideous fast food joints and usually I have to actually come to a standstill to allow a stream of monstrous fatties smearing their faces with lard to circumnavigate the second roundabout. If I slip it in to neutral the idle will hang for one, maybe two seconds and then slowly drop back to 1200. If I keep the clutch in and the bike in gear the idle will remain high. Everything points towards stepper.
Once properly warm I still get the slight idle rise when I pull the clutch in at a standstill but I know we can't do anything about that as its hard coded and it doesn't worry me because I know that. If we could work out exactly what causes the hanging idle it likewise wouldn't bother me, (In all honesty it doesn't really bother me much now! ;D). What I find so irksome, as probably do you, is the fact that we don't know what causes it and why it does it!
Once I've traversed Queanbeyan dodging the single mums pushing strollers full of five kids with different fathers, the groups of the chronically work-shy and the mental defectives the bike is usually warm enough to behave *Normally*, ie it just does the 'Clutch-Pull Lift' of 200rpm.
Pete
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I'm pretty sure it is the stepper motor. I have placed a plastic lawn mower fuel shut off valve in the line between the air box and the stepper motor (extended the line and valve to under the seat) and can confirm once the bike is warmed up I can shut the valve off and the bike perform's perfectly with zero idle hang and basically no decel burble through the exhaust
And yes it definitely only does it when hot
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I'm pretty sure it is the stepper motor. I have placed a plastic lawn mower fuel shut off valve in the line between the air box and the stepper motor (extended the line and valve to under the seat) and can confirm once the bike is warmed up I can shut the valve off and the bike perform's perfectly with zero idle hang and basically no decel burble through the exhaust
And yes it definitely only does it when hot
The stepper is not the cause, it just does what the ecu tells it to do. That shutting it off makes a difference just tells us the stepper is opened by the ecu at some moments we don't like. All result of the conditions and parameters the ecu sees.
I have it too. But I noticed the clutch switch doesn't do it's work, even when pulled. When at redlight, idle stays high, until I goto nutral. When I goto first gear then again, idle stays down.
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I don't have the issue. IIRC it happened once on a map I was testing many months ago. If I had the hang, and it was repeatable, I could try a few things to try to eliminate it.
Paul, if we could figure out what why & when the ECU commands the stepper (ie, what conditions), we might be able to change it's functional parameters.
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The stepper is not the cause, it just does what the ecu tells it to do. That shutting it off makes a difference just tells us the stepper is opened by the ecu at some moments we don't like. All result of the conditions and parameters the ecu sees.
I have it too. But I noticed the clutch switch doesn't do it's work, even when pulled. When at redlight, idle stays high, until I goto nutral. When I goto first gear then again, idle stays down.
Yah, that's what I meant Paul. It isn't the stepper itself but the command to the stepper that is the issue.
Pete
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The stepper is not the cause, it just does what the ecu tells it to do. That shutting it off makes a difference just tells us the stepper is opened by the ecu at some moments we don't like. All result of the conditions and parameters the ecu sees.
I have it too. But I noticed the clutch switch doesn't do it's work, even when pulled. When at redlight, idle stays high, until I goto nutral. When I goto first gear then again, idle stays down.
Yes what you are saying is correct, it is obviously the ECU that is controlling the stepper. I can report that if you shift it into neutral before you stop you don't get the high idle, in other words it only happens when in gear, clutch in or out makes no difference.
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I have about 500 miles on the bew map now. Idle drops immediately to 1100 as soon as it settles down from cold start. Warm, hot doesn't matter, rpms drop lime a stone to 1100 and sit there.
Had a 97degree day today but also a cool part of the ride along the coast through marine layer. Made no difference in the idle.
Engine still feels busy compared to stock. Stock map was elecric smooth too so not much to compare there.
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Ran out to the coast and back today with the Mrs., 200 miles, climbing and high speed work. Very nice and smooth, I didn't notice any issues with the return to idle.
I think each map has been a definite improvement over stock, and the last two have been very sophisticated. Impressive that you can keep making this better. Happy me.
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Engine still feels busy compared to stock. Stock map was elecric smooth too so not much to compare there.
This has to make me wonder about other aspects of the tune. Bike is stock? No aftermarket bits? Serviced correctly? Only one air bleed open and TB's balanced correctly?
Pete
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Running the previous version since a couple of months, I am now getting starting problems and pinging from 5000 rpm up.
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Frans, the map is open loop, it doesn't self trim using the O2 sensor so logic dictates that something else must be causing what is happening with your bike.
Pete
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This has to make me wonder about other aspects of the tune. Bike is stock? No aftermarket bits? Serviced correctly? Only one air bleed open and TB's balanced correctly?
Pete
Engine tune is spot on. The Norge runs flawlessly in stock trim, since day one feom dealer new. I've never experienced the roughness, surging or anything else others have reported. There are no aftermarket parts on the bike. Running the stock map, the engine is smooth, idle is steady, pulls from off idle without a shudder even at full throttle (2k and up), cruises at nearly any speed I'm nit leery of running without so much as a hiccup.
I recently completed a long run, got mid to upper 40s mpg without trying too hard (see my out of gas post). Both mirrors are clear at any rideable speed, I can read passed signs on the other side of the road, all with the stock map.
Maybe I got a good one but I won't complain or mess with what is good.
The new maps works just fine, I do feel the engine seems less relaxed at the spwed ranges noted. It isnt a bad thing, just different and after now about 500 miles to compare, I prefer the srock map because the engine just feels better running it. Sitting at a stop light, the idle is smoother stock even through the new map settles down nicely feom higher rpms but so did the stock map.
I am able and have run stock and then the new map one right after the other so that how each ran was a fresh and comparative experience.
I've ridden enough bikes so I know when a bike has a good tune, even with 4 carb fours like the finicky V65 84 Sabre, ST1100 and now more than 35 others.
I feel blessed because how well the Norge runs being stock and not having the stated issues others have related with the 8V Norge.
The new map seems clean and I have no complaints about it, my observations perhaps didn't come up to a completely new bike feel as some have related since it wasn't bad to start with.
I have had a bike with a bad map from stock (05 V-Strom DL1000) that needed several different maps to make rideable enough to trust it and which Suzuki finally put in a new ECU. Now there was a bike that was tranformed with a good map and ECU but the Norge hasnt had a single issue as far as how the engine performs.
I tried the map to see if I was missing something because you don't know until you try it.
I am glad that for some it makes a night and day difference and in the end, that is all that matters. I do appreciate the obvious hard work that went into making these new maps, who knows, some iteration might turn on a light in my Norge so please don't take my expwrience as a negative just different.
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I do want to add that the stock TPS was 4.7 and I noted that when following the Guzzidiag instructions. The new map would never reset back to that, alwaya going to 4.8 and jumping numbers a bit and I never touched the throttle during that time or when guzzidiag was connected.
The stock map will no longer return to 4.7 but does remain rock solid at 4.8 so I can't explain why stock is steady but new one is not.
I would have expected the TP to reset to the stock 4.7 but it does bot. I would consider a problem or issue with the ecu itself or somewhere in the tune if it ran poorly with the stock map but that isn't the case. While I understand thw difference isn't one to worry about, it is strange it can't be reset to what is was in original state.
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Pilot, two questions about your experience with the new maps:
1) have you compared fuel mileage?
2) Where do you have CO fuel trim set?
My experience on smoothness for any of these maps comes down to a compromise of fuel trim. The lower the number better the mileage higher numbers smoother operation. Understand on closed loop the fuel is trimmed for you except when dropping out of closed loop in my experience more fuel is added than needed. This can be seen on the bike if you monitor instant fuel mileage in closed loop, grab some throttle and notice how long the numbers take to clear and go back up when throttle backed off or backed off completely.
I use a Carbmate to adjustthe throttle bodies. It has a series of finer and finer steps and each finer step requires a further adjustment to center the balance. I do not judge my throttle body balance useing my mirrors of grips as a guide. For me I reach behind and put a hand on the passenger grap rails. When my throttle body balance is right on there is next to nothing for vibration there no matter the throttle position or road speed. Something else I notice is if I adjust the fuel trim to where the idle is smooth and response to throttle is good my mirrors are smoother going down the road. Don't you run the risers you made? They could be changing the harmonics.
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Waltr,
The mileage hasn't changed appreciably. Most of the recent riding and all of it with the new map has been varied with a concentration on speeds that don't get me into 6th much. Given that, I haven't noticed a significant change in the MPG, I still get mid to upper 40s consistently although one hotdog run did drop it considerably.
I haven't changed the CO fuel trim from what is in the map. That could change something things so if changing the Co is part of adjusting the map, perhaps I could explore that.
When testing the map and comparing it to stock I did keep good records of the experience and perceptions. I rode the same roads with only some variation in traffic and ambient temps but all were pretty much the same runs. After the initial shorter runs I gave longer runs a shot. Those went about 120 miles each but instead of swapping back and forth I changed every two and when I got two runs in I changed maps. Got to close to 500 miles until today. Lots of riding in a really short period of time.
The risers actually reduced what little vibes I had with the stock map. All the mounting bolts are properly torques and wisely, I did not use any lubricants or penetrates to loosen the stubborn handlebar mounting bolts because the handlebars are rubber isolated from the factory and squirting any lube or penetrates on them would surely have an adverse effect, if not right away, over time it would. They would also be expensive to replace as it would mean a new triple clamp.
With the stock map, there is the typical slight and muted throbbing of engine pulses but right off idle they are practically non-existent. I am pretty sensitive to vibration and have often changed final drive ratios if a bike exhibited vibration at my usual riding speeds. The Triumph Trophy 1200 had some vibes above 4k that bothered few people, I changed out to a 21 tooth countershaft to put the revs lower to avoid them. Same thing with the Honda in-line fours I've had.
When I bought the Norge and before pickup, I expected vibes, having read here some complaints about them. When I got the bike and took it out for the first time I thought for sure everyone was talking only about the older 2V model because there was an absence of them present with this one.
I can only assume, and I don't mind being the ass on this account, that I was lucky, Luigi was well rested, was happy and focused the day he put this Norge together. Maybe the stars all aligned on that day but from the moment I hit the starter it has been nothing but pure joy, aside from the self tightening oil filter and tough to undo handlebar mounting bolts.
I am content to leave well enough alone. I'm going back to the stock map today because for me it just worked as I expect. Its great that the new maps exist and hats off to the efforts to create them.
It could be like seats I suppose, some like Corbins, others Sargants and others Russels. Then some like the stock seat well enough.
I'll continue to try any new maps so long as I'm not persona non grata on the topic. At least I have a standard that I can use to compare them against.
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I can't see why you would be persona non grata?
Please though, saying that you *Know* when an engine is in tune is a bit worrysome. It doesn't work like that. As delivered ex-factory the throttle bodies are rarely balanced correctly. A quick and easy check is to just try moving the air bleeds. If both of them are open the tune is not correct and if they are wrong who knows what else may be? Also CO trim has an influence over the entire range. If it hasn't been adjusted this too may be a contributor to some of the issues you are experiencing.
If you are happier with the stock set up? That's fine. But assuming the tune is correct because the bike feels a certain way is a risky assumption.
Pete
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Question on the new map (7F59): is the throttle response more gradual? I think that's what I'm experiencing.
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Just kidding on the persona stuff.
When I bought the Norge I didn't pick it up for some time. I made it a point to go back to the service center and speak to the service writer, the manager and the tech. I specifically asked them to do more than the standard delivery, if there is such a thing. I remembered the key points you told me about and asked them to go through the Norge top to bottom to make sure it was as good as they could get it. I said that I didn't care if it meant not picking up right a way, I wanted it done right. I didn't watch them do the throttle bodies but I trust they did and from the way it runs can only conclude they were spot on from the factory (unlikely from what I've read) or that they went and took care of it as I requested.
I changed the oil well before the 600 miler and afterwards, took it in for the initial service. I spent more than 30 minutes specifying that all things that should be attended to were on the work order, that everyone was clear that the bike would be laying down miles. I went so far as to make sure all fasteners were checked and where build marker paint wasn't, I applied some to see if things got checked and if needed torqued to proper specs.
When I picked it up, I went over everything, test rode to make sure things seem well sorted.
I can't say I am a mechanic, I can only compare how the bike runs compared to others I have had and in that bunch there have been times they ran outstanding, good, bad and ugly. I trust the people that touch my Norge and it appears they do things the right way. Other than riding it and having it run well I can't say much more.
I am a picky sort of person and if things don't seem right I do make sure it gets right as far as I can tell.
As far as the maps go, I guess much of it is subjective so I can only compare what it came with and how it felt riding it and then the same with the new map. For all I know, maybe what I think is good isn't. I have no way of telling otherwise. I could go through it myself I suppose but if it then doesn't run as good as it did before (my perception) then I haven't done better.
I also don't have another Norge to compare mine to. Sooner or later I'll probably come across another Norge rider although it seems there are only about 6 of us on the continent. ;)
I'm closing on on 6250 miles so very soon it goes in for that service. A few weeks ago I had about 3000. I will be able to compare how it runs after that service to how it runs nows. Maybe then the map might make a bigger difference as some other have said they got. I can say with some absurdness that if it changes significantly I might not like that because I have absolutely no complaints now. Isn't that what the VW driver said until he drove a Rolls? ;D
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Just for kicks, I going to run a vibration meter app to check the stock map against the new one. Could all be in my head.
When I get some spare time, I'll check on those items you mentioned Pete. Since I don't know what I don't know, perhaps I'll learn something. Learned plenty here already.
Thanks
Got several days of rides planned so I'll be sparse around here for bit.
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I for one did not imply anything you are experiencing is 'in your head'. Vibration has never been a factor for me on my Norge. It was never a consideration, I did notice a a significant reduction when I finally figured out how to use my Carbmate and the bike became smooth as glass, regardless of map.
The one important point I tried to make and in reading Pete's post's as well is the stock map has two O2 sensors to vary the fuel balance in closed loop that Beetle's map does without. The O2 sensors are acting to influence throttle body balance and by doing so COULD be resulting in less vibes. I can tell you on my bike I notice no difference in vibes in the maps. Also when you switch between maps did you clear learned parameters in the Actors page of Guzzidiag?
I actually love the fact of being able to adjust my own valves and balance the throttle bodies and this bike was big plus because of it. I do not look at it as a chore. But that is me, takes me back to my old airhead days when in my 20's.
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Ah, of course. I was saying it might be in my head.
I'll try experimenting with the CO as soon as I get a chance, might be a week though, have so much riding to do between now and then.
BTW, I forgot to answer question question. The risers actually reduced what amount of vibes there were. It might be due to the fact that there is a greater amount of distance to travel and vibes tend to become less as distance increases.
Okay, off to the tarmac. Tomorrow a day through the city which I try to avoid but Pacifica and Half Moon Bay are on the other side of the Golden Gate. I'll have a :BEER: for all of you although it will be something else in the glass.
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Dang, had to get this out to others. Check the thread about helpng track things down. Vibe meters for Android.
I found it super interesting and telling as well.
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Question on the new map (7F59): is the throttle response more gradual? I think that's what I'm experiencing.
Yes. Throttle correction ramps up from very little at idle to max at around 7% throttle, then tapers off per norm. If you don't like it, I can send you a map with 'normal' correction.
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Yes. Throttle correction ramps up from very little at idle to max at around 7% throttle, then tapers off per norm. If you don't like it, I can send you a map with 'normal' correction.
thanks, very generous of you. I'll let you know.
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Yes. Throttle correction ramps up from very little at idle to max at around 7% throttle, then tapers off per norm. If you don't like it, I can send you a map with 'normal' correction.
OK, yes, please do send me a map with normal correction.
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I'm away from home for a few days. I'll flick it to you later this week.
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Anybody else getting idle hangs?
I do, in the exact way that Pete describes.
Otoh, it does not bother me.
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I'm away from home for a few days. I'll flick it to you later this week.
Thank you sir!
I've reloaded the 6963 map, which I'm very fond of ;-T
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I'm running 7e0f now, what should I be looking for vs 6963? All I can say so far is that the transition to closed throttle seems harsh.
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The only difference is the fuel cut-off. If you find it harsh (and I wasn't expecting that), you may prefer the 6963.
Anybody else getting a harsh transition to a closed throttle?
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Not sure about this 'Harsh Transition' thing? All I can imagine is that you are experiencing greater engine braking due to the absence of fuel being delivered when the throttle is closed as the motor winds down to 2,750 RPM.
Essentially its a trade off. Either the fuel can be chopped completely and you get rid of the popping on the over-run caused by the engine 8 stroking and this will increase engine braking, or, you leave the fuel on and the engine doesn't brake so hard as the gas in the cylinder is still being heated by combustion but because the mixture won't ignite every cycle some unburnt mixture is passed into the pipe where it will be ignited by the hot exhaust gasses the next time the exhaust valve opens after combustion has occurred during the engines cycle. This is what causes the popping on deceleration.
I don't even notice a difference, at least not unless I'm looking for it, between 'Fuel off' and 'Fuel on' maps apart from the popping. More noticeable is the slight 'Lurch' at 2,750rpm as the fuel cuts back in but I actually enjoy feeling that happen.
Pete
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Pete, the early Norge maps had a stepped cut-off from 3250 rpm at 7% throttle down to 2750 rpm at closed. The 7E0F has the same cut-off as the Griso and Stelvio maps (2750 rpm on a closed throttle)
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Interesting, didn't know that.
Pete
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I should have said "a bit harsh" or "relatively harsh"....didn't mean to sound so absolute about it.
I actually like the burbling. I'll go back and forth between 6963 and 7e0f and see which I prefer. And I'm really happy that you're willing to churn these maps out for us!
I've developed a bit of an oil leak and have to park the bike until it gets serviced later in the week (please not another oil pressure sensor) so I won't be testing again until at least next weekend.
Again, many many thinks for your work! Norge owners, try these maps, you won't be sorry.
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I just reloaded the latest Norge map and when going back to Guzzidiag and resetting learned parameters (had stock map in there for awhile) I clicked on the measurements screen and I noticed something a little strange. I had run the stock map and set up to monitor lambda control so I had the MV1 and MV2. While in the stock map everyling looked as if it worked properly and the voltage fluctuated as expected, all below 1 volt and between 900mv and 75mv but usually more toward the middle of those values. Then I ran the bike and set CO.
So when I went back to the measurements screen I saw that one of the MV screens was always reading a value and would increase in value when throttle was blipped and the settle down to read around 60mv. Could this just indicate the one cylinder that has the idle air bleed open? Or do I need to look at air leaks somewhere.
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I just reloaded the latest Norge map and when going back to Guzzidiag and resetting learned parameters (had stock map in there for awhile) I clicked on the measurements screen and I noticed something a little strange. I had run the stock map and set up to monitor lambda control so I had the MV1 and MV2. While in the stock map everyling looked as if it worked properly and the voltage fluctuated as expected, all below 1 volt and between 900mv and 75mv but usually more toward the middle of those values. So after loading the open loop map I ran the bike and set CO.
So when I went back to the measurements screen I saw that one of the MV screens was always reading a value and would increase in value when throttle was blipped and the settle down to read around 60mv. When throttle opened the value would be 400 - 600mv. Could this just indicate the one cylinder that has the idle air bleed open? Or do I need to look at air leaks somewhere.
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With an 'open loop' map, ie lambda off, the ECU ignores input from the O2 sensors. It doesn't know what the actual lambda value is. The readings you see now are an indication of your CO trim setting, not the real state of the exhaust.
Ignore, and ride!
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I only get a mv reading on one cylinder and since the O2 senssor is reading O2 I am guessing that is the side with the air bleed open. The other side read 0 mv. And like I indicated the closed loop map reading was normal up and down and within normal values so I know th O2 sensors are working.
I guess I am looking to see if this is normal or do I have a vacuum leak on one cylinder.
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The ECU is NOT reporting O2. This function is disabled with this map. What you are seeing is ECU reporting CO trim, nothing else. It is nothing to worry about.
It's normal. There's no problem. Stop worrying. Ride. :D
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I had a boss, my sales manager, when I sold automotive test equipment that always said to me that understanding is the Booby Prize in life. Never seemed to stop me from wanting to know though.
Thanks for your reply.
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Thanks for the new map Beetle, Pete.
Bike: 2012 Norge kms: 22795 Location: NSW OZ.
Summary: Very HAPPY! :bow
Disclaimer - I am not a professional mechanic, have 30+ years experience in mechanical work on my own cars/mobikes/pushbikes/wife :winer
All comments. claims and etc are IMHO and directed at my vehicles.
To continue, Why am I happy: Smooth pull from idle, smooth pull 2000-4000, and once past 4500 in 4th - speedo racing past numbers quicker than tacho climbing thru revs.
... and this was stock after a tuneup... what was missing was the defining word 'STRONG' pull from 2000-4000 rpm.
yes... the above was true in stock form, but there were moments in the rev range that had me commenting - "this could be better"
In stock my comments are: on a light throttle just past idle the pull would soften i.e the engine would slow and require added throttle to keep revs climbing - this behavior would continue until revs reached 4000 or more and then the revs would climb on a light throttle opening - this made for slower speed buildup at light throttle openings and much twisting of the right wrist between 2000-3500 rpm away from traffic lights on my daily commute.
OTOH give her a bit of throttle from first and second - change up at 4500 or more and only the drives flogging their cars (ALOT of these types in the Hunter Valley, NSW) would keep up.
What this resulted in was sedate progress if upshifting between 3000 and 4000 revs in 3rd, 4th and 5th.
Beetle - Pete - this has been fixed with the map you sent me.
Now right from idle a light throttle will keep revs climbing in the lower gears and short shifting between 3000 and 4000 makes for much more rapid progress -
the desired outcome for improved driveability is successful ... well done.
Detail:
I began preparation for the new map by hooking the bike up to Guzzidiag: to find CO reading was at 34 ... this surprised me as a week earlier I had done a tune-up incl TBS synch and Guzzidiag TPS reset with CO2 set at +2 (.... obliviously I had not done this correctly.) So hooked up the Morgan Carbtune again and found RHS at 3500 rpm was fractionally higher - reset this, reset CO2 to 0, clicked Finish, reset TPS, tweaked air bleed on RHS for idle ( thanks again guys for all the information on how to do these tasks on this forum)
Wen completed and happy bike was 'set-up' (rechecked TPS and CO2) I allowed it to cool then downloaded the current map to my PC (was dated July 2011 - guessing it was factory)
Uploaded new map.
Was getting dark by this time so did not fire bike up (if I was not happy when fired up this would have kept me awake all night - thinking the worst case thoughts!)
Next morning got me and missus ready for a ride - cranked bike and nothing but cranking - would not start ... oh dear - look at wife who has a quizzical expression and a hand out with thumbs down ... no ride??? It will be fine I say - all good just a little cranky (I often speak before I think)
Shut her down (the bike ;D) stand pensively for a minute or five lightly holding on to her - what have I missed connecting back up?
Lets have a listen to the cranking to confirm there is pressure and iginition happening so ignition on - press the starter and BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA
GRIN GRIN GRIN thumbs up to SWMBO, pull bike out of park and pointed down the driveway.
On the original map wheeling bike up driveway required balancing throttle and clutch slip for walking progress please - don't stall ... have done a few time.
Today on new map - at idle - no throttle - just gentle clutch slip and awaaay we go - nice!
Get ourselves sorted - get to the give way sign - wait for a break in the traffic - clutch out and light throttle 3500 in first - change - 3000 in second and no 'limp' feeling between 2000 and 3000 - just strong constant pull - Norge 2 Rider " you can change up to 3rd Sir" Rider 2 Norge " its only 3300 rpm, I will wait for more revs - don't want to lug you" Norge 2 Rider " lug me hahaha! - go on change up!" 3200 in 3rd and closing the gap to car in front - 4th at 3000 and settle for awhile - tweak throttle a little later and awaaay we go ... am ENJOYING this.
Did 113 kms round trip around our beautiful Hunter Valley 70kmph in 4th soaking in the lush scenery - 125 in 5th committing Norge to sweeper .. all good.
The last 34 kms was a 110kmph baritone rumble cruise in 6th at 4000 - up gentle climbs Norge hold her revs and speed - a little tweak of the wrist and we quickly overtake traffic in left lane.
Windy conditions cause Norge to gently 'weave' from hips up - tyre line does not change-arrow straight tyres on concrete - mavbe topbox causing this? tyre pressures correct as was checked day earlier.
Feel of the bike: 2000-4000 rpm engine rumble more pronounced - original map engine rumble 'softer' - since the pull is stronger I am guessing the combustion process is producing more power per pulse than before? more effective fuel/air mixture per combustion more pulse.
To the ear this sounds slightly 'off-beat' at these revs compared to original .... my tuning not perfect? Nature of the beast? ???
Will ride this map for the next week in my commute and do a follow up report.
Give me a week or so to establish 'trust' in my Norge with the new map and will be 'making a donation' with a smile.
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Hi All ... day 2 on new Norge map, day 1 of using bike in traffic.
Great! ... will continue to use this map for remainder of week.
Am experiencing cold start problems - many jabs at starter and some tweaking of the throttle required to keep cold idle.
CO2 at 0 ... should I play with CO2 settings? With the Lambda sensors disconnected would this make any difference to cold start?
Bike refuses to fire for about 5 or 6 attempts, once firing can keep it going with throttle at about 1800 rpm. Once warm starts easily.
Small price to pay for benefits available ...
Is there anyone in or close to the Hunter Valley NSW OZ who I can take the bike to for a checkup and second opinion?
Please do not point me to any Dealers ... have had many experiences of poor workmanship on my bikes at dealers workshops and on one occasion
failure of a front tyre at close to 100kmph due to damage during mounting the tyre on the rim.
If there are any Guzzi 'specialists' in the Hunter I would appreciate hearing from them.
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I've heard others comment that starting can be an issue with the Norge map from cold. I've not yet experienced anything *Terrible* but sometimes one bike I loaded the map to needed the throttle to be held slightly open for 30 seconds or so. Might be initial warm-up map related methinks but this is one area where individual bikes seem to differ, perhaps through sensor input differences, I don't know?? I commented to Mark on one map for the Griso a while back that warm up seemed a bit off and I had to be a bit careful about just starting and pulling away immediately. He seemed perplexed. I think the adjective 'Dickhead' might of been used? ;D dunno really.....
Thing to remember is that for this stuff to be addressed Mark needs feedback so keep it coming. I know from many years of working with the same basic sensors though that their inputs can vary greatly. The way that the more sophisticated ECU's interpret the signals will affect more than one parameter or table within the map. I don't have the required skills to interpret and deal with that but it's something that both Mark and I are aware of which is why map development is a constant, on-going thing. There is a lot that isn't known so caution is the watchword. Heaven only knows how many iterations of the 8V Griso map he's up to now?
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Bib, try setting CO trim to +10. If cold starting improves, tweak the CO up or down as necessary.
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Just had the 25k mile service performed. Bike starts and runs great. Cold starts right up. Happy happy.
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Hi All ... day 2 on new Norge map, day 1 of using bike in traffic.
Great! ... will continue to use this map for remainder of week.
Am experiencing cold start problems - many jabs at starter and some tweaking of the throttle required to keep cold idle.
CO2 at 0 ... should I play with CO2 settings? With the Lambda sensors disconnected would this make any difference to cold start?
Bike refuses to fire for about 5 or 6 attempts, once firing can keep it going with throttle at about 1800 rpm. Once warm starts easily.
Small price to pay for benefits available ...
Is there anyone in or close to the Hunter Valley NSW OZ who I can take the bike to for a checkup and second opinion?
Please do not point me to any Dealers ... have had many experiences of poor workmanship on my bikes at dealers workshops and on one occasion
failure of a front tyre at close to 100kmph due to damage during mounting the tyre on the rim.
If there are any Guzzi 'specialists' in the Hunter I would appreciate hearing from them.
The hard starting you describe is exactly what I was experiencing with prior maps, however with Marks latest map and the CO set at 2 it is starting first go from cold. The only slight problem I have now is that it wants to idle a bit low (1100-1000 rpm) but other than that I find this latest map superb and the best so far (for me at least) I feel the bike is smoother and more responsive everywhere now and for a bonus its also slightly better on fuel as well.
A bloody miracule if you ask me, well done
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Day 3 on new map:
End of day 2 I connected Guzzidiag and checked TPS(4.6) and reset the "Learned Parameters"(neglected to do this on map install)
Day 3 was careful on cold start, caught engine with throttle as soon as it fired on the second jab, engine firing uneven, a little erratic, manual idle control for about 20 seconds then engine firing began to even out so allowed throttle back to stop, bike idled on its own - noticed after about a minute from first start the idle settled down to normal.
Bike enjoyable in traffic, find shifting between 3800 and 4000 fast enough to keep away from 90% of the cages.
On the original map the engine would pull steadily but without urgency until 4000+ then would feel more willing to rev and answer throttle input with strong pull,
from idle to 4000 engine feel was 'soft'.
With new 'Beetle Juice' map idle to 4000 engine feels more 'vibey' without discomfort (TBSynch done) and STRONG.
Mechanical noise slightly less with beetlejuice, am guessing the TBS helped there?
I love the decel pop ... also love the http://soundbible.com/1282-Lion-Roar.html (http://soundbible.com/1282-Lion-Roar.html) going up the gears.
will adjust CO2 to +10 or around there soonish and report back... the cold start issue is NOT a deal breaker with beetlejuice, just more character! ;-T
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I went up to a CO trim of +14 to get my norge to start and idle well when cold this summer & fall. The bike has been running great but now that the mornings have been getting colder (40F) I've found it very difficult to start even giving it a little throttle. Once running it is fine & starts right up with a warm engine but I've decided to go back to the stock map for the cooler weather.
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Hi All ... first day completed with CO2 now at +16
Began CO2 at +10 and then found +15 was a little smoother so made it +16 as max -will come down from here.
Starts much easier, cold idle around 1800rpm, no need to nurse throttle at start up for more than 5 seconds.
Engine seems quieter (?) possibly sounds a little on the rich mixture side of the equation.
Warm idle revs a little lower than before but stable.
A little fun today -- in 5th at 4000 (95kays) then opened throttle a bit (not WOT) and in the length of 2 semi's was looking at 130+ ...
what I have missing with my other bikes ... burble along at 70kays in smooth baritone then roar at 130 in a rush of acceleration building.
Past bikes had the 'RUSH' in spades but never the high gear smooth burble at low speed, the ST had the purr at 70 and the rush up higher.
My impression is the engine is not quite as smooth below 4000 as on original map - will hook up Carbtune again to double check my last adjustment.
Could just be the more urgent feel of the engine. Will ride this for at least 4 weeks before passing any confident judgement.
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Some observations and questions of the the 7F59 map with the altered fuel cut off and redline at 8500. The 6963 map seems to idle better/stronger. It just seems to settle into idle in stop and go better than 7F59. I do not know why that is it just seems to hold a stronger idle. The stock map is criticized for high idle but on my bike that idle will settle down after a brief moment and the 6963 seems to do the same.
The 7F59 map does seem stronger in the mid range and the hole at 4000-4700 that the dyno noticed (I never noticed it) could be gone but the bike is just not as smooth at lower speeds and stop and go. Smooth may not be the right word but what I believe is happening is the more rapid fuel cut off may be creating a much larger difference between on throttle and off throttle and I am trying to ride around that with my wrist. If the 6963 is just too good and with this map in and CO set to about 16 every time I pulled up to a light I felt that this is the way this bike sound run/sound at idle. Why the 7F59 does not give me that same feedback I do not know. Is would be great to have the stronger mid range, 8,500 redline and better/stronger idle and on/off throttle performance of 6963.
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Well, I could simply change the max rpm of the 6963 and leave everything else the same?
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Is there any difference besides the extended RPM and fuel cutoff. If so an extended rpm 6963 would be great. I thought the 7F59 was an attempt to fill in the depression in power at 4,000-4,700 rpm and at least by seat of pants I can verify that. But given a choice the 6963 is better overall. Was anything else modified on the 7F59 beside fuel cutoff and rev limit rpm?
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Question on 7E0F (which I'm running now) vs. 6963 (previous): is the situation with the revs not returning to idle in a timely manner on off throttle (there has to be a better way to express that) down to mapping or is it some other part of the ECU? I'm finding this an intermittent issue with 7E0F.
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Question on 7E0F (which I'm running now) vs. 6963 (previous): is the situation with the revs not returning to idle in a timely manner on off throttle (there has to be a better way to express that) down to mapping or is it some other part of the ECU? I'm finding this an intermittent issue with 7E0F.
Mine does the 2000 rpm idle thing regardless of what map is in it (including the stock map)
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Mark
Other than the hanging high idle issue, the only problem I have with mine is it wanting to idle a bit low 1000 - 1100 rpm (both warmed up and cold) , can I just raise my "target idle" speed a bit in the guzzi diag programe ?
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Waltr - the newer maps only had changes to the fuel-cutoff and max rpm. Everything else is the same.
nikwax - this seems to affect some bikes and not others. I believe it to be a a function of the stepper motor not driving 100% correctly. It affects bikes with and without my map, so I cannot say for sure why it happens.
dddd - Target idle is a function of the map. It's based on engine temp. I will send you a map with a modified idle table.
I have built a new map based on the 6963 with only the max rpm changed. I will send it out shortly.
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I didn't realize you'd cracked the target idle issue. Good-O.
Pete
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Just as a note 6963 for me has always had what some describe here as a hang in idle. The stock closed loop map acts the same way. It never bothered me in fact it seemed to be beneficial in stop and go traffic that it holds a slightly higher idle for a short time before settling down. It never did the 2,000 rpm idle though. Idle RPM on 6963has also been a little higher centered around 1150 rpm compared to the later map. It could be that the later map would benefit from a slightly higher idle in fact I know it could. My version of the later map even has a lower cold start idle rpm vs 6963. Id you do a later map with higher target idle for dddd I would like to try that along with the 6963 with 8500 rpm redline.
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I did two for dddd, one based on the modified 6963, and one from the 7F59, which he preferred. I'll send you the one based on the 6963.
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Hi all ... did my first full tank refill last night and had to double check my numbers ... 310 kms for 18.8litres = 16.5kmpl or 6litres/100kms (39 mpg)
This is in my daily commute - EXCELLENT. Now on the original map I has less 'Thrust' between 2000 and 4000rpm, I has less enjoyment in my commute and I averaged 275 kms per refill --- now that is having your cake with icing! So fuel economy is better - no change to riding style other than going a little faster away from lights.
The old map was a spider's web strand smoother at commute revs (3000-4500) this could be tune - will check this ... anyone reading this please advise on following: When bike was smoother on old map my TBS was a little 'out' at 3000rpm ... RHS was about a 10mm higher than LHS.
Now with TBS set about equal on both sides I am tempted to tweak the RHS back to a little higher than LHS and feel the difference ... any thoughts?
Not really interested in 5000+rpm smoothness as I hardly spend much time there. Shocked faces all round??? sorry- really enjoy my riding close to set speed limits, not very confident in my multi-tasking abilities at 130kmph down two lanes looking out for fee-collectors and not seeing that dog about to meet the 'gyroscope' keeping me upright.
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What's the balance like at 4000 rpm? If not quite balanced, redo the balance at 4000 instead of 3000.
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Found the time to do a TBS and balance at 4000, was a smidgen out at 4000, small adjust needed .... also reset the CO2 down from 16 to 12 (idle slows below 10 and above 17)
Results from these adjustments are a slight improvement of smoothness at 3500 -5000rpm, starting is more immediate now, (CO2 adjust) does not require babysitting the throttle to get idle happening, so all good all around.
I kinda like the engine idling at 1500 rpm when slowing down ... if I synch it right my downchanges are smoother with little effort.
once at walking pace the idle goes down to 1100 - 1200.
The popping on decel has stopped except on rare occassions, once again I liked that and do miss it a bit.
My second tank refill confirms I am getting 300 kms from 18 litres or between 38 and 39 mpg in my commute.
Am not going back to the original map folks - what for???
cheers
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On the 'Hanging idle' issue Paul posted over on the Ghetto that he'd found it was linked to poor operation of the clutch switch. I'm not exactly sure I understood his explanation but have a squizz for yourself and see if it makes sense to you. I haven't had time to scratch meself today, never mind go and look at my clutch switch!
Pete
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Hi ... now been over a month with new map ... now that I am 'used to' the new operation of the bike my thoughts are:
Great enjoyment in engine below 4000 rpm
Not quite as smooth from 3000 to 5000 rpm as original (TBS set at 4000 with Morgan Carbtune)
Much improved fuel consumption.
Between 3000 and 4500 rpm:
The original map gave the engine an 'elastic' feel that was very relaxed.
The new map gives the engine an 'urgent' feel more like a big bore non balance shaft inline 4(think Waltr said this before)
the trade-off is worthwhile ... far better throttle response with new map.
None of the CO2 changes made any difference to this 'feel' with new map.
The TBS fine tune at 4000 has not altered this 'feel' with new map.
I am guessing the original map had a trick up its sleeve with regards to this relaxed feel ... ???
Possibly with lambda inputs that are now disconnected ???
Am not playing with tune as am happy with it :bow
cheers
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Hi ... now been over a month with new map ... now that I am 'used to' the new operation of the bike my thoughts are:
Great enjoyment in engine below 4000 rpm
Not quite as smooth from 3000 to 5000 rpm as original (TBS set at 4000 with Morgan Carbtune)
Much improved fuel consumption.
Between 3000 and 4500 rpm:
The original map gave the engine an 'elastic' feel that was very relaxed.
The new map gives the engine an 'urgent' feel
My feelings exactly. After months of riding with the new map:
The far better rideability (is that English?) especially below 4000 rpm make the whole thing worth while for me.
Smoothness, throttle respons, no more clutch use in slow turns or at roundabouts.
The 'hanging' of the idle does not bother me, the engine running 'rougher' between 3 and 5 k rpm does a bit. And the engine struggles to get into the high rpm.
So mixed feelings, but at this moment, I would not want to go back to the original map.
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So far Mark hasn't had a Norge to log develop a map for. That means that what you are riding on is based on comparative speculation and feedback.
As soon as I can convince someone local to allow me to keep a Norge 8V for a couple of weeks that are convenient for Mark, (Remember, he has a real job too!) I can set up the tune, take it to Wagga and he can really crunch the numbers.
I'm hoping soon to be au-fait with the logging process myself and have the tooling. Once I'm up to speed it will make it a lot easier as I'll be able to do a lot of the 'Donkey Work'. Once again though I also have a job, (Two if you consider the Midget Porn Empire a job?) so this stuff all has to 'Fit in' as it were. My guess is that this midrange 'roughness' will be addressable but it needs concrete data and first hand examination to get things spot on. There are no 'Magic Wands' here. It's all done the hard way without fairy dust or magic boxes.
Pete
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So far Mark hasn't had a Norge to log develop a map for. That means that what you are riding on is based on comparative speculation and feedback.
As soon as I can convince someone local to allow me to keep a Norge 8V for a couple of weeks that are convenient for Mark, (Remember, he has a real job too!) I can set up the tune, take it to Wagga and he can really crunch the numbers.
I'm hoping soon to be au-fait with the logging process myself and have the tooling. Once I'm up to speed it will make it a lot easier as I'll be able to do a lot of the 'Donkey Work'. Once again though I also have a job, (Two if you consider the Midget Porn Empire a job?) so this stuff all has to 'Fit in' as it were. My guess is that this midrange 'roughness' will be addressable but it needs concrete data and first hand examination to get things spot on. There are no 'Magic Wands' here. It's all done the hard way without fairy dust or magic boxes.
Pete
wow, you've gotten all this done without a test bike? That is astonishing!
Thanks again for the work!
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Not to log build a map. There are certain things we have learnt and *Know* about the 8V engine that mean Mark can take a pretty good stab at a map. We have had test bikes but not so far one Mark can log build a map on.
Pete
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Not to log build a map. There are certain things we have learnt and *Know* about the 8V engine that mean Mark can take a pretty good stab at a map. We have had test bikes but not so far one Mark can log build a map on.
Pete
I invite Mark over to Belgium. You won't believe the number of award winning beers we have. In the meantime, he can ride and test and batter my Norge. By the time all of the beers have been tasted, the Norge is set up to perfection. Or not, but we wouldn't care, would we?
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I like beer! ;D
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Hi ... now been over a month with new map ... now that I am 'used to' the new operation of the bike my thoughts are:
Great enjoyment in engine below 4000 rpm
Not quite as smooth from 3000 to 5000 rpm as original (TBS set at 4000 with Morgan Carbtune)
Much improved fuel consumption.
Between 3000 and 4500 rpm:
The original map gave the engine an 'elastic' feel that was very relaxed.
The new map gives the engine an 'urgent' feel more like a big bore non balance shaft inline 4(think Waltr said this before)
the trade-off is worthwhile ... far better throttle response with new map.
None of the CO2 changes made any difference to this 'feel' with new map.
The TBS fine tune at 4000 has not altered this 'feel' with new map.
Just before Xmas I checked TBS again- made sure 'both' air bleeds were snug then redid TBS at 4000rpm - reset TPS (4.6 I think)
After this the smoothness was little improved - throttle response 'feel' better (my imagination? -no matter, feelings of joy!)
I did find the throttle cables required loosening as idle was hanging at 1800 or so - once cables were loose idle was fine.
Fuel cons has gone up a little ... (guilty smile) frustrated cagers with bike in crosshairs find themselves sitting in exhaust fumes....
(better for them than that ciggie maybe??)
Observations:
Original map 0 to 3000 rpm was a little smoother BUT had slow throttle response, less eagerness to rev than Marks map. Also engine stalled easily at idle with a little load.
New map: 0 to 3000rpm - eager to rev, takes load in stride, does not stall easily at idle. Smoothness similar to original but with more 'Thump' Hah! Now THAT's why I bought a Guzzi!
original map 3000 to 5000 revs engine pulled well (expect more for 1200cc by this stage) -smoothness increases with rising torque so that by 4000 there was strong pull - elastic in feel in that as revs got past 3000 so did eagerness to rev increase.
New map 3000 to 5000 strong thumping pull, smoothness slowly decreased with revs so that by 4000 a 'tingle' in bars is evident along with light 'rumbling vibration' in chassis - not unpleasant at all.
original map 5000 to 8000rpm - VERY smooth and quick to rev ... like power is ramping up with each 100rpm
new map 5000 to 8000rpm not quite as eager to rev as original - not quite as smooth, more rumble evident, power builds with revs but 'FEEL' is different
------example: with original map you have to twist throttle (many millimeters) below 5000 to get bike really moving BUT once close to 5000 a little movement of throttle gives a lot of urge,
------more throttle sensitive 5000rpm up.
=====New map throttle sensitive right from idle to 4500 or so then sensitivity drops off and you have to twist throttle .. almost like its a reverse of original?
MUCH PREFER NEW MAP - 90% of my riding is below 5000rpm.
Norge is a beast of beauty to ride AND look at!
Thanks MG -thanks forum members - my riding enjoyment is increasing with each day.
Been riding near on 40 years - NOW I get the bike I always needed while I enjoyed all my past bike except for 1 - my fault for choosing someone else's restoration project.
Next bike will be a MG.
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Hi Guys
I, am new to the forum and have been reading about the new map for the norge 2V 2007 is this map still available as I have just purchased the bike and would to give it a go
Thanks in advance
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I have a map for the 1200 2V motor PM me if you are interested.
You will need Guzzidag and some cables to load it.
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I've got a map too. What Molly said.
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Hi guys, I am also also interested about maps for Guzzi 2V Norge 1200.
I sending PM to Beetle.
Gretting rom Czech
Gelos
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Just before Xmas I checked TBS again- made sure 'both' air bleeds were snug then redid TBS at 4000rpm - reset TPS (4.6 I think)
After this the smoothness was little improved - throttle response 'feel' better (my imagination? -no matter, feelings of joy!)
I did find the throttle cables required loosening as idle was hanging at 1800 or so - once cables were loose idle was fine.
Fuel cons has gone up a little ... (guilty smile) frustrated cagers with bike in crosshairs find themselves sitting in exhaust fumes....
(better for them than that ciggie maybe??)
Observations:
Original map 0 to 3000 rpm was a little smoother BUT had slow throttle response, less eagerness to rev than Marks map. Also engine stalled easily at idle with a little load.
New map: 0 to 3000rpm - eager to rev, takes load in stride, does not stall easily at idle. Smoothness similar to original but with more 'Thump' Hah! Now THAT's why I bought a Guzzi!
original map 3000 to 5000 revs engine pulled well (expect more for 1200cc by this stage) -smoothness increases with rising torque so that by 4000 there was strong pull - elastic in feel in that as revs got past 3000 so did eagerness to rev increase.
New map 3000 to 5000 strong thumping pull, smoothness slowly decreased with revs so that by 4000 a 'tingle' in bars is evident along with light 'rumbling vibration' in chassis - not unpleasant at all.
original map 5000 to 8000rpm - VERY smooth and quick to rev ... like power is ramping up with each 100rpm
new map 5000 to 8000rpm not quite as eager to rev as original - not quite as smooth, more rumble evident, power builds with revs but 'FEEL' is different
------example: with original map you have to twist throttle (many millimeters) below 5000 to get bike really moving BUT once close to 5000 a little movement of throttle gives a lot of urge,
------more throttle sensitive 5000rpm up.
=====New map throttle sensitive right from idle to 4500 or so then sensitivity drops off and you have to twist throttle .. almost like its a reverse of original?
MUCH PREFER NEW MAP - 90% of my riding is below 5000rpm.
Norge is a beast of beauty to ride AND look at!
Thanks MG -thanks forum members - my riding enjoyment is increasing with each day.
Been riding near on 40 years - NOW I get the bike I always needed while I enjoyed all my past bike except for 1 - my fault for choosing someone else's restoration project.
Next bike will be a MG.
I experienced some of what you reported and went back to the original map for a couple thousand miles. Then I reloaded the new map and all those gremlins vanished. It could be that I did something wrong but I chalk it up to the Norge running in.
My Norge is now as smooth with the new map as the original and it is a jewel to run it between 4 and 5 and even above without nary a vibe being intrusive.
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I'm in!
Finally broke out my cables, read GuzziDiag tutorial umpteen times, hooked everything up and a few tries into it......copied my original map to the netbook. Mind you, I've very little time on this bike (less than 10 miles)...but I do know it pops on over run, starts and idles nicely.....and that's about all I know so far.
Soons the world is a little less white and roads clear....I'll chalk up up some rides and impressions 👌
But I'd like to have another map or two ready to go.....
Thanks all!!!
Lee
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Winter is finally gone in this (still chilly) north land, but...J finally removed the front wheel chock, the trickle charger, and eased the Norge off the center stand a few weeks back!!
Up to a paltry 150-200 more miles on the odo, and keeping in mind this is a new bike to me with about 3400 miles from the previous owner. All stock, no mods. Have noted a definite flat spot 3,500-4,000 rpm. At lower (parking lot) speeds it feels more like stumble, at higher speeds/gears feels flat, like it's being held back. I have popping on over run, but nothing terrible.....in fact, I like that.
Recertifying for my MSF safety card (returning riders) in two weeks and would be much happier without that stumbling/flat spot. Always on the verge of grabbing clutch in case she actually falters or completely misses. Not interested in doing a face plant with an instructor watching😅
So Beetle, Vasco what might you have for mapping a 100% stock, 2012 8V Norge parked at 600' elevation.....oh it is not Red, so you'll want factor that in too :bow
And yes, Ive spoken to the bike with GuzziDiag, and copied/downloaded my MAP....unsure if it is "as built" or dealer updated. Can provide if needed.
Thanks!!!
Lee
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Flick me your email and I'll send you a map to try.
Pete
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GuzziPilot, you might want to make another copy of that original map and put it on something else like a CD or thumb drive in case your netbook takes a dump and you need the original.
Netbooks can fail just like laptops with spinning drives. It never happens until you need it.
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GuzziPilot, you might want to make another copy of that original map and put it on something else like a CD or thumb drive in case your netbook takes a dump and you need the original.
Netbooks can fail just like laptops with spinning drives. It never happens until you need it.
Good call! And, even though I know better, haven't gotten to it .....quite yet. I'll make it top priority this morning. ;-T
Thanks for the nudge 👍👍
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Since moving from the NW to the SE my riding patterns have changed and I am noticing different things about the way my Norge runs. I'm wondering if remapping may change a couple things for the better.
It is hotter and more humid here. In addition, the highways are less congested and move much faster.
The things I notice are a bit of surging at steady throttle cruising around 70 or 80mph. Also, I now see what people mean when they comment on the heat off of these mills.
I am guessing the surging on steady throttle will be addressed, how about the heat? Ha anyone noted a decrease in heat off the engine from a remap?
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Most 'Surging' problems are the result of incorrect tuning. I fear that there is this belief that remapping is a panacea for all ills. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the bike isn't serviced and tuned properly with the beat developed map in the world it will still run like a hairy wombat with a burning branch up its date!
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Most 'Surging' problems are the result of incorrect tuning. I fear that there is this belief that remapping is a panacea for all ills. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the bike isn't serviced and tuned properly with the beat developed map in the world it will still run like a hairy wombat with a burning branch up its date!
:1: :bow:
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Most 'Surging' problems are the result of incorrect tuning. I fear that there is this belief that remapping is a panacea for all ills. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the bike isn't serviced and tuned properly with the beat developed map in the world it will still run like a hairy wombat with a burning branch up its date!
This is not my first bike by any stretch, nor is it my first Guzzi. I have been riding and wrenching on everything I own, ride and/or drive for about 35 years. I have only had a couple of injected bikes, however. This surging is the exact symptom that was most recently exhibited by my carbureted Scrambler when the needles needed a shim. Logic would seem to lead me to thinking that the same symptom may be an issue with the modern equivalent of the carburetor, the fuel injection system which, coincidentally, is tuned by uploading different maps.
Perhaps I simply need to rephrase the question.
Has anyone with a properly tuned and maintained Norge experience surging at steady state freeway cruising speeds? If so, was this symptom aleviated with a remap?
The bike has less than 10k miles on it and it has had all the recommended services.
By moving across the country, I am riding in a different climate, in very different traffic and on different roads. Perhaps it is because of the different riding patterns that I have not noticed this symptom before. Is this an unreasonable assumption?
I have so far not bothered to pursue a remap because, aside from the bike likely not being fully run in, I have never experienced the poor performance or glitches that so many others have that have apparently been cured by the miracle of the remap. Perhaps this is one of those symptoms, eh?
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When did you last balance the throttle bodies? How did you recalibrate the TPS after the procedure?
I wasn't aware I'd suggested you don't look after your shit. I was simply suggesting that if your bike is exhibiting a symptom that it previously didn't exhibit then a remap is highly unlikely to offer a miracle cure. I didn't think in fact I'd said anything disparaging about you, who I don't know from a bar of soap, so how's about not being such a bloody drama queen.
Pete
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How many miles have you done since relocating?
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Yeah, I was thinking dump the trims and see what happens as it re-trims.
Look, I know I can come across as a bit blunt. It's not my intention but you have to understand it from my point of view. I've been working on bikes that use the W5AM controller for nearly a decade. Mark has been developing maps for them for several years now. Do we 'Know it all'? No of course not, a fine example of that is my very recent discovery that the roller cam bikes breathe significantly differently to the flat tappet bikes. I didn't know that and the obvious pointers indicated the roller cam mimicked the flat cam very closely. How wrong can you be?
The thing is though that I DO have a lot of experience now with these bikes and what works, what doesn't and what causes problems. In 99 instances out of 100 if there is a significant problem or change of behaviour of a machine it will either be because it's broken or because it isn't tuned correctly. If someone just says "My bike has started running like crap. I want a map to make it better." The chances are that there is an underlying problem. This isn't to say that if the person who owns the bike is doing the servicing they are wrong or an idiot, it's simply that they may not know the correct tuning procedures or recognise the symptoms of a problem because their total experience of a W5AM controlled bike is limited to a sample of one, their own!
Now a LOT of time and not inconsiderable expense goes into the development of a decent, log built, map. If it is uploaded into a bike that isn't tuned correctly or has some bunch of weird-harold aftermarket shite fitted to it IT WON'T WORK VERY WELL! The next thing you know the uploader is pissing and moaning that the map builder or advisor has buggered their bike. On numerous occasions both Mark and I have sent maps out to people who have said "My bike is stock". We can spend hours scratching our heads and offering advice and then slowly they will start telling the real story that their bike has some crappy rock-strainer air filter and a flatulo-matic triple layer orgone accumulator linked to a voodoo fetish under the seat! Either that or some basic step in the tuning or mapping process has been overlooked!
Given these facts and our experience is it so totally unreasonable that I suggest that if the bike has started misbehaving we be given some pretty detailed explanation as to what an owner has done and what they think tuning their bike involves?
I never suggested that Mr. Forrest was an idiot. All I did was say that unless the bike is correctly serviced and tuned it will run like a bag of shit regardless of what map it has in it. Given prior experience it would seem not unreasonable to expect the person requesting a map explain a bit more thoroughlywhatthey do when they service and tune their bike. It could simply be that something has been overlooked or done wrong.
Pete
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My sweetie looked over my shoulder at this and told me I was an ass. She's right.
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Beetle, I have put about 400 miles on it since moving.
The bike was stored for a few months before I was able to get it trucked over. Note that I previously ran premium gas with Start-Tron treatment to (theoretically at least) neutralize the corn squeezings in the gas. The gas I've bought here is ethanol free premium so far.
Pete, that's the kind of hints I was hoping for.
I have experienced much of what you're talking about working as a service writer in a scooter shop.
I have made no mods to the drive train except removing the carbon cannister to make room for a better tool kit. Aside from checking the balance and TPS, I will double-check the cap on the intake where I removed the hose from the carbon can. An air leak there might cause issues.
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An air leak may well cause problems. Do you have the tooling to calibrate the TPS? What procedure do you follow when balancing the throttle bodies? Do you service the bike yourself? If not does the shop you used have a good reputation? Have you checked the valve clearances? What are they set to? Are both the air bleeds open?
Pete
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I'd still reset the trims.
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From what I remember and I could be mistaken, reports of surging always went away after a good tune. Those with a good tune didn't have surging. The map just made the engine run smoother with a crisper throttle response and if you have a tune that isn't right, whatever slight issues were present remain and might even be more apparent.
I am surely not the one to say past offering an opinion but anytime a bike of mine didn't run right, if it had any modification done at all, no matter how slight, I put the thing back to completely stock and then did all I could to get it as good as possible. Then I was reasonably confident that step by step, as any changes were made I wasn't trying to correct something with the mask of some mod.
Too bad there is no quantifier for surging because there have been reports of surging, micro-surging and all that and then bumpy roads causing some erratic RPM changes because the engine response wasn't as muted as with the stock map.
Just some observations.
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Pete, that's the kind of hints I was hoping for.
I have experienced much of what you're talking about working as a service writer in a scooter shop.
I have made no mods to the drive train except removing the carbon cannister to make room for a better tool kit. Aside from checking the balance and TPS, I will double-check the cap on the intake where I removed the hose from the carbon can. An air leak there might cause issues.
First up, as Mark see, re-set the trims. You can do this by pulling the main 30A fuse or disconnecting the battery for a few seconds.
Secondly. Are you familiar with the procedure for balancing the throttle bodies on a W5AM bike? If not do a search here, it's been posted up a zillion times but if you can't find it I'll run through it again, it's very simple BUT you do need some sort of tooling, Guzzidiag being the obvious choice, to re-set the TPS after the balancing is carried out as the TPS value is interpretive rather than being an actual physical adjustment.
Your sweetie sounds like she has her head screwed on right. Stop being paranoid. We want to help.
Pete
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So, I just purchased a 2014 Norge last week and while it does have a super smooth power band from about 3500 rpm on, I do feel the huge slap in the back at lower speeds (da tight stuff, meaning tight roads). So very hard to be smooth with the throttle on this bike. I also feel the higher rpm after riding at California freeway speeds, come to the stop and the idle speed is at 2000 rpm plus. it does come down very slowly. I did a ride this weekend with the wife, and I knew she would say something about the harsh on off throttle in the super tight turns :violent1:, just can't be smooth. Not like my older fuel injected Guzzi's . The other thing I feel is at low throttle openings is the bike seems to go rich than lean, like it is searching for where the fueling wants to be, yes, it could be what people call surging. No issues once the throttle is opened up more. I just ordered the Guzzidiag cables, so hopefully Mark or Pete can help me though this. The bike just has 550 miles on it, but I will be doing the first service myself. General Motor's tech since 1978.
Thanks,
Mike
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Mike, the 8V has outstanding throttle response (some say it's too much of a good thing). Too much slack in the throttle cables can accentuate this and cause the harshness you mention. First thing to do is adjust your throttle cables for minimum slack.
Secondly, proper throttle body balance is paramount. Sometimes these bikes leave the factory with both air bleeds open, so a proper balance can smooth things out quite a bit. I would also check/set your valves and then perform a trim reset, either with GuzziDiag or by pulling the main fuses for 30 seconds.
Then, PM me your email address and I'll flick you my Norge map.
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Thanks Mark,
I checked the throttle cable play and it was quite large, will take the bike out for a spin today after the adjustment.
Hopefully the GuzziDiag cables I ordered from England will be here this week, so I can give the bike a good base setting (valve adjustment/throttle body sync, tps reset and trim reset). I PM ed you as well.
I also have a friend that has a 2 valve Norge, I would like to see him remap his bike as well, as when I ride behind him, it brings tears to my eyes cause his bike runs so rich. :violent1:
Mike
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Hello all,
I finally had a chance to download the map into my 2014 Norge, and wow! The motor feels like it is electric, meaning smooooth power once the clutch is let out. I too find my self riding down lower in the rpm range, yes, I still like to hit redline when merging into traffic!
I have about 200 miles on the map so far and my only spot that may need some tweaking is on the cold startup. When starting cold, the bike seems to stumble, trying to keep running. Sometimes it will dye and require a restart. Once running for 1-2 min., it all seems to smooth out, but does require the full 2 min. warmup to be able to ride away. This is in fairly warm temps (65-70 degree F). The CO is set at +5.
Another question, when the trim is reset, what exactly is being reset, 02 trim?
Oh, ok, another question, will this map work ok with a Mistral muffler with the DB killer installed or would I need a different map? I know, I just love the way the Guzzi exhaust note sounds :copcar:
So Mark, how can I make a donation for your work? You have saved me much as I didn't have to send my computer out to get remapped and no PC5,
Thank you again, MIke
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I have about 200 miles on the map so far and my only spot that may need some tweaking is on the cold startup. When starting cold, the bike seems to stumble, trying to keep running. Sometimes it will dye and require a restart. Once running for 1-2 min., it all seems to smooth out, but does require the full 2 min. warmup to be able to ride away. This is in fairly warm temps (65-70 degree F). The CO is set at +5.
How's your throttle body balance and valve adjustment? When running an open loop,map, these must be spot on for best performance.
Another question, when the trim is reset, what exactly is being reset, 02 trim?
Yes.
Oh, ok, another question, will this map work ok with a Mistral muffler with the DB killer installed or would I need a different map?
Yes and no. It will run with the current map, but won't be optimal.
So Mark, how can I make a donation for your work? You have saved me much as I didn't have to send my computer out to get remapped and no PC5,
If you wish to donate to the cause, you can do so via PayPal to my email address to help cover costs. If you'd rather donate to something worthwhile, I support the Red Cross.
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Thanks Mark,
I just preformed the 1st service and to my surprise, just the intake valves were about 1 thou. loose. I guess the roller cam followers are working well?
The TB balance was fairly close at 4000 rpm and idle, one side air bleed was slightly opened. I did adjust to get everything as equal as possible with my mercury sticks, I even switched the vacuum lines to double check, spot on.
I still had somewhat of a rough cold start in the am, I'm thinking of going more positive on the CO trim.
I'm still a rookie at with the guzzidiag and while adjusting the CO, it seems like it takes several seconds for there to be an audible change in the idle, so it isn't like adjusting a carb, run the needle in and than back off 1/4 turn as there is a big lag time. Seems like almost like a full 60 seconds or more? I can hear a difference in the idle, but it is very hard to pick up by ear, I listen and then hear the bike stumble like missing a heart beat but I'm not sure that was from me making an adjustment or the computer making an adjustment to my commands quite a few seconds down the line. Yes, this is going to be a learning curve.
I will play with it more,
Mike
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Yes, it takes time for the bike to settle in after a CO adjustment. Let me know how you get on. I can always tweak the warm-up table.
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Hello !
I would like to try the 8V Norge map if someone would be willing to send it to me.
I have a 2012 Norge with these modifications :
1. rollerized
2. canisterectomy
3. Agostini exhaust pipe
If the map will work with these modifications I would like to give it a try. I was able to successfully save the stock map to my PC and connect with Guzzidiag by following the instructions from Beetle's thread. The bike is running well now, but after reading through this post I'm really interested in giving the new map a go !
Thank you to all on this forum who have made all of this possible --
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Ditto here, i know i am coming late to this thread but i would like to try it out as well if someone can send it to me, PM me for email etc
regards
Jim Mac
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guys it works other way around: PM Beetle with what your bike is and has, and he will see if he has a map for you, AND include your emailaddress!
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AFAIK there has been no development of roller maps for the Norge, dunno about pipes? I think what Mark has done was based around the stock unit.
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Ok, thanks for the head's up. I'll PM him as suggested about it --
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Hello,
looking for a new map for my Norge 1200 8V 2015, I found this discussion for a map fromBeetle. How I can find it ? I tried to click on Beetle nickname to send him a private email but doesn't work.
How I can contact him or get his map?
Many thanks
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Hello,
looking for a new map for my Norge 1200 8V 2015, I found this discussion for a map fromBeetle. How I can find it ? I tried to click on Beetle nickname to send him a private email but doesn't work.
How I can contact him or get his map?
Many thanks
The best mod I ever made for my Norge 8V and my Griso. That and a tune up per Roper spec results in a smooth tower of power. Feel free to IM if you have questions.
http://griso.org/
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Hello,
looking for a new map for my Norge 1200 8V 2015, I found this discussion for a map fromBeetle. How I can find it ? I tried to click on Beetle nickname to send him a private email but doesn't work.
How I can contact him or get his map?
Many thanks
If you have facebook, click on this link
https://www.facebook.com/commerce/products/norge-8v/1556983831041554?ref=mini_shop_serp&referral_code=mini_shop_profile_plus_header_cta
If not, just google 'Beetle maps' and you'll find what your're after.
Steve.
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Hello,
looking for a new map for my Norge 1200 8V 2015, I found this discussion for a map fromBeetle. How I can find it ? I tried to click on Beetle nickname to send him a private email but doesn't work.
How I can contact him or get his map?
Many thanks
If you don’t do any good, let’s know here and we’ll get you sorted.
Also by way of enquiry..
What CO setting are you 2VPC guys running ?
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Beetle's website is here. http://griso.org/
All the information you could ever need regarding the process to download and upload to your bike is on the site.
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Beetle contacted. Thanks a lot to everybody!
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I installed this on my 2012 Norge 8V and am happy with it. Overall improvement in MPG and performance, but interestingly caused a "hanging throttle" where it takes a second for the RPMs to come down after you let off the throttle. Doesn't really bother me. YMMV