Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: slepsnys on May 15, 2014, 01:24:28 AM
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Hello,
I am new to this forum and it is my first post, because couldn't find answer in the forum. I have bought Le Mans III from Germany and before starting to ride I wanted to clean the carburetors, when I have cleaned them, I have looked at the needle set and it looked strange to me, it is different than US specification lean burn carburetors. Main body also looks little different than LM3, am I right? Please help me to identify from what model this carburetor is, from Le Mans III or not? I have take couple of photos of the carburetor and of the needles, throttle valve (slide) is 60/3.
(http://i.imgur.com/mivgVOY.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/86ugrFH.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/4ilJLA2.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/oh6KnOC.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/TLd9BAB.jpg)
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The true tell tale will be if you can take the bell crank top off and remove it and the slide. Post up a pip looking down the Venturi with the slide removed and I'll be able to tell you if they are the 'Lean Burn' type or not.
Pete
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after being introduced to the existence of "lean burn" Le Mans III carbs trough this here board a couple of years ago,
I checked with my German Moto Guzzi dealers if they had ever heard about these.
they didn't, that assures me that these carbs have never been put onto the market in Europe, especially Germany
where I am from.
what you have there is a typical Le Mans III Dellorto PHF 36 carb in all of its beauty. ;-T
the 140 main jet is another hint for that, "lean burn" carbs use a way smaller main jet.
and before I forget: welcome to this board, all the best with your new Guzzi. ;-T :BEER:
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To: Vasco DG,
Thank You, I will take photos after work and will add them to forum.
To: Rumba,
Thank You :) :BEER: Well I know that lean burn main jets are smaller, but I thought that it was changed or something. Maybe You know what was carburetor factory settings for bikes (LM3) sold in Germany or Europe, I don't know if they differ from country to country, info I have found about factory settings in the net was about lean burn carburetors sold in US?
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what you have listed there jet wise in your first post is the stock factory setting for the Le Mans II,
it is advised to run this setting with the Le Mans III as well if you plan to run open velocity stacks
or correct sized as in big enough K&N filters.
the idle mixture screw has to be at ~ 1 1/2 turns out for this carb, that is about it.
:)
the lean burn carbs have a kind of shroud around the main-jet / emulsion tube exit I believe,
but I have not seen either one of these carbs or even a picture yet.
:BEER:
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(Sigh.)
A common mistake made by people who think they are cleverer than they are is to suggest that because they have never seen something it doesn't exist.
AFAIK all Mk III's in all markets used 'Shrouded' carbs. Hence my request for a shot down the venturi.
MkI/II/III Le Mans engines are all essentially the same in terms of bore/stroke/combustion chamber shape and valve size.
A common Tuning Modification' made by the ignorant is to fit Mk I/II jetting to MkIII carbs because everybody knows that the only reason the Mk III uses much leaner jetting is because of some tinfoil hat conspiracy by the 'Government' and probably the Illuminatti and anybody else you want to have a conspiracy about who wanted to restrict your fun and curb 'Pollution' which we all know is a lefty plot.
In fact the changes were made to take advantage of the greater cooling of the squarefin head design to promote better fuel economy.
*IF* these carbs are the earlier, unshrouded, type? Then Mk I/II jetting is a fine starting point. If however they are the original carbs as fitted to a Mk III fitting MkI/II jetting will turn it into a thirsty, gutless pig. This is a pity as it will also cause premature wear in the engine but if that is what floats your particular boat? Be my guest.
Pete
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I for myself would put the jets back into the carbs, with the clip at the second notch
from above like where it is at now and take the bike for a ride.
if you encounter a well running machine and find brown spark plugs afterwards, I would call it good.
I do not need to get personal or even unkind on an internet board, that is simply not the way I want to live.
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Why would you do that before finding out whether the bodies were one type or another? The two require completely different settings ???
Pete
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Hi Rumba,
Ive been watching your posts for some time and I have been in agreement with all the ones I've read. Lately the 2 plug issue with timing. May I say spot on! ;-T
I don't want to get in the middle of a misunderstanding but I have a lm 3 with lean burn carbs that I purchased at the factory in 83. I have also purchased a second hand Lm3 since then and it is also fitted with lean burn units. One is a very early 81 and by its numbers about 100 from the start of the model and my original bike is an 83 so between the mid and end.
It is just the little brass shroud that makes the difference. There was absolutely no difference between my EU bike to my Australian bike. None what so ever. From what I can tell this is no longer the case with modern models but back in the 80's there was none.
This is in no way a criticism. I just wish to inform you that the Lean Burn Units existed but there is nothing to really differentiate between them by part number until you look down the venturi and look for the shroud.
My second bike has suffered excessive wear as the previous owner had jetted it like a LM II and the excessive fuel has washed the bores. It still runs but I'm glad I saved it in time.
I look forward to reading more of your posts. I actively seek them out as you seem to have a very similar opinion to me. :BEER:
Cheers
Rod
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(Sigh.)
A common mistake made by people who think they are cleverer than they are is to suggest that because they have never seen something it doesn't exist.
AFAIK all Mk III's in all markets used 'Shrouded' carbs. Hence my request for a shot down the venturi.
MkI/II/III Le Mans engines are all essentially the same in terms of bore/stroke/combustion chamber shape and valve size.
A common Tuning Modification' made by the ignorant is to fit Mk I/II jetting to MkIII carbs because everybody knows that the only reason the Mk III uses much leaner jetting is because of some tinfoil hat conspiracy by the 'Government' and probably the Illuminatti and anybody else you want to have a conspiracy about who wanted to restrict your fun and curb 'Pollution' which we all know is a lefty plot.
In fact the changes were made to take advantage of the greater cooling of the squarefin head design to promote better fuel economy.
*IF* these carbs are the earlier, unshrouded, type? Then Mk I/II jetting is a fine starting point. If however they are the original carbs as fitted to a Mk III fitting MkI/II jetting will turn it into a thirsty, gutless pig. This is a pity as it will also cause premature wear in the engine but if that is what floats your particular boat? Be my guest.
Pete
Informative and well put,- again !
Right,- all the Mk IIIs came with the B-type shrouded 36mm PHFs,- and I see no reason for a B stamped 36 PHF as pictured, not to be the shrouded type ?
I run 12o main jet, 55 pilot jet and 50/3 slides in mine, with 950cc, HMB torque cam, deactivated acceleration pumps (with no off idle stumble) and original air box with the LM IV cartridge in it (bigger surface than LMIII).
According to the spec sheet in my parts catalogue, it looks like there were 2 different versions of the B-type though,- red spot and green spot, with slightly different internals.
But most importantly,- don`t jet a B type as if it were a D type.
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The shrouds are a pressed in fitting.They can be pressed in and out. The carb bodies have the same name in all the documentation that I have. All PHF 36 B with D for Dexter and S for sinista (Right and Left.)
There is a difference. Jetting is different. How you run a lean burn to a conventional carb is different.
Again, I think there seems to be a misunderstanding here. Pete I know and respect. Rumba, I don't know but I've been reading his posts and he has saved me butting in on numerous occasions. He is no fool. I've read the posts above and I can see where the misunderstanding has occurred. I'm sure this is just a language issue.
Rod in Oz.
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Yeah , Morrizi is correct , a simple misunderstanding :+1 This is an interesting thread ;-T
Dusty
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Fascinating thread.
Would someone be so kind as to post an image of the "shroud" as they know it?
Am currently preparing a set of PHF36's (HD, I believe) for service on a round-fin 850. Still very early in the process. Have yet to determine which cam I want to go with. Can read a spark plug adequately. Would very much like to be instructed on how to proceed with initial jetting.
Thanks in advance,
-Late to the Party
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Hello again :) I see that this is a interesting thread not only for me but also for other people and of course there are a lot of confusion. These are the photos of the shroud I took:
(http://i.imgur.com/EhZ1lSS.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/zg8ijtd.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/YPRPC0i.jpg)
I have found interesting manual of the Le Mans III written in Italian and this is one page from it, I am sure it is about jets:
(http://i.imgur.com/VB7aEnC.jpg)
This is the link to the full manual:
http://www.guzzista.com/ClassicGuzziManuals/850LM3Italian.pdf
What are Your thoughts about lean burn carburetors and differences between US models and European models?
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slepsnys
The pics you posted clearly show that your carbs are not shrouded, even if they have the B stamp on them, so they are to be jetted as the LM850 and LMII PHF D type. Somebody obviously changed the shrouds.
The casting is of course the same for the PHF D and the PHF B versions, and they both additionally have the D or the S suffix stamped on them. D for "destra" and S for "sinistra",- right and left.
So,- : PHF 36 BD and BS,- and PHF 36DD and DS.
Here is what the B type with their shrouds originally look like :
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w477/kidneb51/DSC01976_zps836bf7fc.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/kidneb51/media/DSC01976_zps836bf7fc.jpg.html)
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w477/kidneb51/DSC01973_zpsed1e1c3a.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/kidneb51/media/DSC01973_zpsed1e1c3a.jpg.html)
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w477/kidneb51/DSC01974_zps8c94eec6.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/kidneb51/media/DSC01974_zps8c94eec6.jpg.html)
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Well, understood that shrouds are not lean burn type in the photos I have uploaded, but how to explain the Guzzi manual written in Italian about jets (image I have attached), these carbs clearly are non lean burn type according to the jets, am I right? Can it be that in Italy (maybe in all Europe) was some Le Mans III with non lean burn type carburetors???
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I sincerely doubt it. The thing is we are talking about a bike that is now thirty years old. Who knows what its history is? Perhaps this is a reasonable scenario....
At some time in the past a previous owner who knows no better has decided that the 'Lean burn' jetting is all wrong. Not because the bike isn't running well but because he just *Knows* that the change in jets and needles was done purely for emissions and obviously pouring in more fuel will make it more powerful! So, being *Smart* he finds out what the jetting was for the earlier LeMans models which were unsullied by interference by the dreadful ogres in Brussels and pops them into his carbs. Having done this he now finds that his bike runs like a three legged donkey with a stomach full of sleeping pills, belches black smoke, drinks fuel like a drunken sailor on shore leave necks rum and wont pull the skin off a rice pudding! Taking it on a test run he is overtaken by a septuagenarian nun riding a bicycle so even he can work out its not right!
So, rather than going back to the original jetting he perseveres in his quest for more performance by changing jets, atomisers, slides, you name it and all the time generally going bigger because of course he still *Knows' the bike was deliberately jetted lean!
Eventually in disgust he buys new or second hand carbs off an earlier model, doesn't examine them too closely and runs them with the MkI/II jetting and voila! The bike runs much better 'Proving' beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was something wrong with his original carb bodies! Oh sure, it uses more fuel than it did and it isn't as smooth but that is just a sign of its awe inspiring performance improvement, even though this isn't actually really detectable in any other way other than in his imagination!
Of course this is all mere supposition and I've never actually seen this scenario played out, well, only a dozen or so times over the last thirty years......... :D
Pete
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To Vasco DG:
Well I understand that this theory can be true in most cases, but I found one interesting thing and still nobody haven't made comment about it, I am talking about a copy of genuine factory Le Mans III user manual from the same era bike was build, language is Italian, so clearly it was for Italian market, in 43 page is a complete list of jets, which clearly isn't for lean burn type carburetors??? Somebody who knows please comment about this.
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Probably because when the manual was 'Updated' for the MkIII they forgot to change the jetting specs. This sort of omission is commonplace in Guzzi workshop manuals from back beyond the dawn of time right through to today!
Pete
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So there you have it. ;-T
When you "buy" a used bike you "get" every mistake made by every person who approached the bike with an "idea" and a wrench or screwdriver.
Change the oil and other fluids, return everything to "stock," and you may then have a sweet ride. And if you later have an "idea," hit your thumb as hard as you can with the biggest hammer you can find. If the idea is still there when your thumb stops hurting, well, do what you want to.
;D
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To Vasco DG:
Well I don't think that there is evidence which could support Your theory about bad printing because:
Le Mans II jetting:
Idle jet Main jet needle Clip position (From top) Needle jet Slide
60 140 K-5 2 265 60/1
Le Mans III jetting according to the Italian manual:
Idle jet Main jet needle Clip position (From top) Needle jet Slide
60 132 K-18 3 265 60/3
It is possible that they revised manual changed 4 position out of 6 and the res two left unchanged, I have doubts about it, do You? :)
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Main jet size is definitely a misprint for the MkIII, as is the atomiser. Mk III uses a 268 atomiser and a 118 main. The K18/265 combination is all wrong and definitely would cause issues in an unshrouded carb.
Pete
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slepsnys,
The jets that you show in your photo are identical to those that D. Richardson identifies as being fitted on all LMIIs (in his book Guzziology).
He lists two sets of jets for the LMIII, a "U.S." set and a "European" set. Here are the numbers:
Idle - U.S...53 European...50
Main - U.S...120 European...115
Needle - U.S...K-18 European...K-18
Clip Position - U.S...2 European...3
Needle Jet - U.S...262 European...268
Slide - U.S...50/3 European...60/3
Guzziology also lists a "Performance Kit" for the LMIII that uses PHM carburetors. In the same order as listed above the jets are: 60, 170, K-4, 3, 265, and 60/1. (You never know where people get their ideas for jet choices. "Performance kit? Really? You think we can jet these PHFs kinda' like the PHM kit?")
Perhaps this helps a bit.
Good luck!
Bill
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I stand corrected, yes, MkIII main was a 115. I excuse myself because I was typing at 4.00AM in bed while trying to get to sleep. What I'd give for a full night's sleep.......
Pete
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Interesting the printed specifications for the Italian motor. Different to the English language user manual.
I purchased a LM III new at the factory in 83. It still runs its standard jetting.
(http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1/g9yPovBY7Stu6o1_E01EZA382958)
Slide 60/3
Atomizer 265AB
Main Jet 115
Idle Jet 50
Needle K18/3
That's how mine came and it agrees with the Owners manual and every other manual I have for it. I've got this bike mothballed as I can't afford to keep them all on the road.
My second LM 3 which was pre loved before me came with 'upgraded' jets. ::)
Slide 60/3
Atomizer 268AB
Main Jet 145
Idle jet 60
Needle K18/3
The only thing that compensated for all these big holes was the float was set a few mm lower.
It is now at Slide 60/3
Atomizer 268AB. I tried 265s but it had a real hole in power.
Main Jet 120
Idle Jet 52
Needle K18/3
This is my main touring ride.
(http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1/4FzDjNYfi2d0YjKVLOXI1A605874)
So there you have it. My experience of 2 bikes. One runs happily with a 265AB atomizer and the other doesn't. The one that doesn't has a lot more kms on the clock. 340,000km roughly and it will still give me about 550 Veglia km per 25L tank which is about 500 real kms before I have to push. Economy, power and plug colour are all good.
Lean burn carbs can be jetted up a bit but not too much, IME.
I do find the Italian setting interesting. I can see that it would work with the jets compensating for the atomizer. :BEER:
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slepsnys
The pics you posted clearly shows that your carbs are not shrouded, even if they have the B stamp on them, so they are to be jetted as the LM850 and LMII PHF D type. Somebody obviously changed the atomizers.
The casting is of course the same for the PHF D and the PHF B versions, and they both additionally have the D or the S suffix stamped on them. D for "destra" and S for "sinistra",- right and left.
So,- : PHF 36 BD and BS,- and PHF 36DD and DS.
Not in my memory or by Guzzi factory and Dell Orto books
All of them were B type, just later ones have shroud and jets but not marked differently
one visible difference on first LM to 3's is brass spigots for vent hoses, not in OP's pictures
(http://i.imgur.com/mivgVOY.jpg)
but are in manual pic posted above.
(http://i.imgur.com/VB7aEnC.jpg)
I think they may be on some Mk 2's as well but not all
Unlikely anyone changed the cable support arm, that's another way to tell which model they were from, 1,2 & 3 are all different
But OP's carbs origins may never be known,
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Not in my memory or by Guzzi factory and Dell Orto books
All of them were B type, just later ones have shroud and jets but not marked differently
one visible difference on first LM to 3's is brass spigots for vent hoses, not in OP's pictures
But OP's carbs origins may never be known,
It may never be known,- but this is getting interesting as to approaching the OPs question I think.
Jackson,- you do mean that all of the LMIII`s carbs were B types, and not that all of the early (I+!!+!!!) LeMans carbs were,- right ? If so, you are also saying that not all of the LMIIIs came with lean burn carbs ?
I have some Dellorto manuals, but reading them only adds to the confusion,- Manual nr. 19 even states the LMIII `82 came with PHM40 Ds !!
As I`m sure most of you already have figured out, I don`t come here in any "expert capacity",- and I`m happy to be corrected and learn something new in addition to all the other useful and interesting things I`ve learned here.
But I must admit, conceding that not all of the PHF 36 B type carbs came shrouded from the factory, is some sort of a camel to swallow.
And it immediately opens up the next question : what does the B stand for then ? What makes it differ from the D type ?
And is it likely that a significant mod as the shroud would not earn some kind of marking on the carb? Hmm,-
slepsnys, - do you have the German Ersazteilkatalog for the LMIII ?
On the last page there is a "Datenblatt" that also contains carb jetting specs. Apart from the two clearly lean burn jettings,- "roter und grüner Punkt",- there is one that resembles the jetting you found in Italian.
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w477/kidneb51/DSC01978_zpsa3319c58.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/kidneb51/media/DSC01978_zpsa3319c58.jpg.html)
So I`m thinking that these obviously "unshrouded values" shown for the LMIII may indicate that there were a few early LMIIIs that came with non lean burn carbs ? And that slepnys carbs are, or very well could be, the original ones?
Also, it`s not ver likely that people swop their 36 carbs for another pair of 36s ? Nor that they would change the shrouds ?
slepsnys, - is your LMIII an early one ? High milage ?
Uhh- ohh,- going out for a ride in the sunshine,- on my (lean burn) bicycle ! :)
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Gentlemen, I am holding a Le Mans II Owner's Manual, Technical publications code 14-90-00-56 dated 11/79
It lists the following specs for the PHF 36B Carburators:
140 - Main Jet
265AB - Atomizer
60 - Idle Jet
70 - Starter Jet
38- Pump Jet
10gr - Float
60/3 - Throttle Valve
K5 Needle ( 2nd Notch )
Now, in order to muddy the waters a bit more, I'll mention my Own bike's PHF 36B Carb settings, which differ a bit from those listed above. I'll post them because my bike runs perfectly smooth on all RPM ranges and this info may help someone, somewhere.
My Moto Guzzi is a 1979 CX100. But it is not a stock CX100 - My bike was modified by previous Owners ( I'm #3 ), and in fact I was told by PO#2 that this motorcycle had been modified by the original dealer in Glendale, Ca. ( Woods..? ) with PHF36 Carbs, Bub Pipes, Fork Brace, etc.. And that this work had all been done to the bike before it being delivered as "New" to #1 owner.
Anyhow, over the years I've added on some modifications to the bike in general, and the powertrain in particular. About 2007, after ten years of me beating the living shiite out of it, the engine was diagnosed by Mark Etheridge of MG Classics as needing serious Top End Work. This probably partly due to me running Malossi Open Velocity stacks for 5+ years.. :D
Oh, well...If you wanna play, you gotta Pay ( sooner or later) - So on came Top End Rebuild Time which was done at MG Classics. I forget the exact details list but it included Cylinders bored out, New pistons, rings, etc.. Also the Heads were "massaged" by Etheridge's off-shop expert in the Black Magic world of engine Head Work... I forget this Voodoo Priest's's name, but IIRC, larger valves were installed, new valve guides and seals; Heads ported, flowed and decked, etc..
With the engine out, and while waiting for a new Clutch, my buddy and fellow Weekend Apex Straffer Ed Milich suggested a Diet to lighten the flywheel so as to make the bike more responsive to the way we rode.. Sounded good to me, and so this was as added to the work-scope as well.Next came new FAC fork dampers and wirth Springs, and 7614 IKONs out back. Finally, Delrin Manifolds were fitted, to prevent Carb-Sag.
And when all this stuff was finally said and done, the PHF 36B internals were fiddled with in order to optimize throttle response across the RPM range, as it regarded the new setup.
Since then, the CX100 has run like a dream. ;-T ;-T ;-T
Starts instantly when cold (+choke) or hot (no choke). Idle settles at 980 RPM within 20 seconds of cold startup ( Choke OFF ), No flat spots or stumbles anywhere in the RPM range..
Sweet spot for cruising is about 4800 RPM, give or take 200 Revvs.
Ideal RPM-range for farking around in the Hills is 6000 - 6300 RPM.
Runs out of useable Power at around 7200 - 7300RPM
MPG runs about 35 - 40, depending on the bike's mood and its accelerator pumps.
I mention all this stuff detailed above in order to give context to the following Carb Data, which allows my CX100's engine to run like a Downhill Locomotive on Steroids... ;-T:
So, here are the ( PHF 36B) Carb settings as fitted to my CX100
130 - Main Jet
60 - Idle Jet
K6 Needle (*3rd notch )
2.65 - Atomizer
( Pump Jet - 38, IIRC )
Hope this helps in some degree.
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As I`m sure most of you already have figured out, I don`t come here in any "expert capacity",- and I`m happy to be corrected and learn something new in addition to all the other useful and interesting things I`ve learned here.
Thank You for being open-minded, it leads to ultimate truth not just opinion of majority. :)
I don't have German Ersazteilkatalog for the LMIII, but thank You for the photo You have uploaded.
I also think that jetting spec in Italian and German manual can't be just type errors, probability is to small that errors would be in both manuals, at least I think so, but didn't know.
My Le Mans III is low millage and it has another interesting thing, the gearbox is ZD type, close ratio straight cut gearbox, maybe this helps as I know this is a rather rare gearbox. I have uploaded couple of photos of the VIN numbers and engine number:
(http://i.imgur.com/6KdW391.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/yQLDdDb.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/TDRVxsE.jpg)
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This is a fascinating thread. Very informative.
Though, given my experience with four and two wheeled Italian gas burners, I can't help but chuckle a bit whenever certain words are used in discussing them - words my wife and I try not to use between us if at all possible; always, never, every, none or their synonyms.
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It may never be known,- but this is getting interesting as to approaching the OPs question I think.
Jackson,- you do mean that all of the LMIII`s carbs were B types, and not that all of the early (I+!!+!!!) LeMans carbs were,- right ? If so, you are also saying that not all of the LMIIIs came with lean burn carbs ?
I have some Dellorto manuals, but reading them only adds to the confusion,- Manual nr. 19 even states the LMIII `82 came with PHM40 Ds !!
As I`m sure most of you already have figured out, I don`t come here in any "expert capacity",- and I`m happy to be corrected and learn something new in addition to all the other useful and interesting things I`ve learned here.
But I must admit, conceding that not all of the PHF 36 B type carbs came shrouded from the factory, is some sort of a camel to swallow.
And it immediately opens up the next question : what does the B stand for then ? What makes it differ from the D type ?
And is it likely that a significant mod as the shroud would not earn some kind of marking on the carb? Hmm,-
So I`m thinking that these obviously "unshrouded values" shown for the LMIII may indicate that there were a few early LMIIIs that came with non lean burn carbs ? And that slepnys carbs are, or very well could be, the original ones?
Also, it`s not ver likely that people swop their 36 carbs for another pair of 36s ? Nor that they would change the shrouds ?
Firstly, I am not the font of all knowledge, I only post here to kerb misinformation when I see it
Point 1 Every book or std 850 Le Mans 1,2 or 3 with 36mm Dell Ortos I've seen has PHF36B, if you have book or std bike with PHF36D, I'm amazed but is possible.
Point 2 PHMD 40mm Dellortos were optional from 76 to homologate for production racing, similar to SBK today, manufacturer has to make parts available
Close box falls in same kit, seems unlikely to fit this without carbs and manifolds
What I really don't know is the different market jetting, Rod's 2 bikes suggest Euro did get shrouded but perhaps not all of Europe, books posted & Rumbas comments suggest differences not printing errors IMHO
I can't even remember if UK 3's were all shrouded, at that time I was ripping 36's off and fitting 40's with 90mm bore kits etc
Or if they were all vented with plastic tubes
Interesting the printed specifications for the Italian motor. Different to the English language user manual.
I purchased a LM III new at the factory in 83. It still runs its standard jetting.
(http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1/g9yPovBY7Stu6o1_E01EZA382958)
I think I've just worked out the contradiction, in early 80's we were selling Italian delivery LM 3's in Australia (via PS and Agostini's)
These bikes were Australian complianced and therefore had Aus spec jetting / shrouds. That's why yours is shrouded
My educated guess
Aus and US complianced 3's had shrouds and vent lines, home market and others not (Rumbas German importer verifies this)
The proof of this would be the brass spigots for vent lines, still guessing but 99% betworthy that if they had vents they were shrouded too
So OP carbs are orig IMHO, why close box fitted without tuning engine to match is a bigger mystery to me
Lastly, difference PHFB to PHFD ?
study drawings
http://guzzisti.de/img/upload/service/Dellorto-Katalog%201977%20(Italienisch).2.pdf
1.33.2.427 is PHF 36B-- Guzzi 850 Le Mans 75-, 850LM3 81-
1.33.4.620 is PHF 36D-- not clear OE application, as said not in my memory or books
Neither show shroud or brass spigots, swallow that camel !
1.34.4.458 is PHM 40D 850 Le Mans K 76- and 850 LM 3 82- (only ever optional AFAIK, K could stand for that ?)
Perhaps your D comes from PHMD ? These were the PR 40mm carbs, very different animal
But OP, just tune and ride, start with what you have, read plugs, how it runs much more important than history of bits
Cheers
MH
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Valid points. All I know is that EVERY MkIII I have ever dealt with that hadn't been buggerised about with had the carbs with shrouds in. Over the last 15 years or so there has been a steady trickle of imports from Europe to Australia including a fair few MkIII's and of all the ones I've seen, (Can't give a precise figure but its been a few.) which have come from a a variety of countries including Germany, Italy and the Netherlands have all had the shrouded carbs. Whether their designation was BS or something else I can't remember.
As Martin says though what carbs you have doesn't really matter a jot as long as they are set up right. I personally have a pair of shrouded 36's that I'll be putting on my SP if I ever get it back on the road. I'm sure I will eventually of I live long enough but is simply don't have the time at the moment.
Pete
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Now here is a sentence I thought I'd never put together: I agree with both Martin and Pete! :BEER:
I have worked on a number of LM 3s besides mine and they have always had the shroud. I won't say ALL but I think I'm pretty confident to say Nearly All! :D
To add some more grey areas I know a number of the Laverda guys press the shrouds out. They are trying to emulate the almost impossible to fine PHB carbs that are like the PHF but without the pumper in the body. Some racing classes need that removed too. I don't try and understand Classic Racing rules and politics. I think that would be a fool's errand. :BEER:
After reading Martin's post just above I had a closer look at the carbs on my 2 LM 3s. The 81 has the brass vents coming straight up out of the body. The 83 has small 90 degree elbows coming out the side then bending upwards. They look and feel alloy but they may be very hard plastic. I don't want to do the destruction test. I want to be very clear that they both have the shroud. The cable support arm is the same on both too. My understanding on the PHF B is that the B means flexible mount like the rubber manifolds. A refers to the clamp on type like VHB's on an old roundy. D? I haven't a clue unless it follows the A or B which means it is a RH carb.
I again agree with both that you can just jet the ones you have to suit. I often read a lot of rubbish that you can no longer read plugs but you can. There is still a lot of story there to uncover the mystery. Personally I prefer the lean burn type because I'm used to them. I can judge the numbers and what it will do. I understand that jetting will be bigger on a non lean burn carb and I can sort them but it takes me a bit more trial and error for the final few %.
Enjoy the Italian factor of model specifications. :BEER:
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Some good home truths in this tale
(Sigh.)
A common mistake made by people who think they are cleverer than they are is to suggest that because they have never seen something it doesn't exist.
Pete
EG ?
All I know is that EVERY MkIII I have ever dealt with that hadn't been buggerised about with had the carbs with shrouds in.
Pete
This is gold
I can't help but chuckle a bit whenever certain words are used in discussing them - words my wife and I try not to use between us if at all possible; always, never, every, none or their synonyms.
And cheers Rod, we're all happy now, hope OP got info and entertainment, ignoring the conflicting, obviously.
Now here is a sentence I thought I'd never put together: I agree with both Martin and Pete! :BEER:
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The 83 has small 90 degree elbows coming out the side then bending upwards. They look and feel alloy but they may be very hard plastic. I don't want to do the destruction test. I want to be very clear that they both have the shroud.
You can buy them by the dozen at Dellorto.uk, and they`re not plastic. http://www.dellorto.co.uk/merchandise/products_details.asp?PartNo=9008&CategoryID=2&PartsectionID=21
My understanding on the PHF B is that the B means flexible mount like the rubber manifolds. A refers to the clamp on type like VHB's on an old roundy. D? I haven't a clue unless it follows the A or B which means it is a RH carb.
Just to document my assertion earlier in this thread about PHF36 Bs and PHF36 Ds sharing the same body casting :
http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?f=e&Shnew=1&Model=7&ModelName=Le%20Mans%201,%20Le%20Mans%202,%20Le%20Mans%203,%20Le%20Mans%201000,%201000S&Cat=FUA&CatName=Fuel%20and%20Carburettors&Sort=TitleDesc&spPage=2#topbar
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w477/kidneb51/DSC01991_zps21b6749f.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/kidneb51/media/DSC01991_zps21b6749f.jpg.html)
I guess (but not sure) that the "1" suffix on these D carbs stands for the newer type with the revised slides (redesigned idle adjuster ramp) and bigger float bowl plugs.
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So, I think I will leave these carburetors on LMIII and will try to tune them :) I want little more opinion and confirmation about setup which is written in Italian manual (photo I have uploaded), lean burn type or not, I am thinking to make this setup for my carburetors, which are without shrouds? :)
(http://i.imgur.com/VB7aEnC.jpg)
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With your carbs the only thing I'd change, providing the rest of the bike is stock, would be the needle. I'd think as a starter a K5 would be a better choice. If your bike came with a ZD box though it might also have a 'K' cam in it and that might make a difference.
Pete
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slepnys
Your carbs are obviously non shrouded 36mm PHFs.
The bike has, low milage or not, a running history. The jetting your carbs have now resemble the jetting of the LM II in this chart, so why not start with that ?
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/dk_da_technical_carburetor.htm
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Pete,
Please tell me more about 'K' cam, what it is? Thank You :)
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The factory's 'Production Race' cam the B10. It has a 'K' stamped on the rear end.
Pete
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Hey slepsnys
Why can't we see a picture of your newly acquired wonder ? Is it a white one ?
I have a white one myself,-used import from Italy. It also came with the ZD gearbox, but the cam was the stock one. Not the K stamped B10 which came standard on the LMIV,- but was provided in the "race kit" for the LMI-II-III.
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You can buy them by the dozen at Dellorto.uk, and they`re not plastic. http://www.dellorto.co.uk/merchandise/products_details.asp?PartNo=9008&CategoryID=2&PartsectionID=21
Just to document my assertion earlier in this thread about PHF36 Bs and PHF36 Ds sharing the same body casting :
http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?f=e&Shnew=1&Model=7&ModelName=Le%20Mans%201,%20Le%20Mans%202,%20Le%20Mans%203,%20Le%20Mans%201000,%201000S&Cat=FUA&CatName=Fuel%20and%20Carburettors&Sort=TitleDesc&spPage=2#topbar
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w477/kidneb51/DSC01991_zps21b6749f.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/kidneb51/media/DSC01991_zps21b6749f.jpg.html)
I guess (but not sure) that the "1" suffix on these D carbs stands for the newer type with the revised slides (redesigned idle adjuster ramp) and bigger float bowl plugs.
Now I see where you get the D from, these are offered as replacement and are not identical to LM and LM 2 which also used B type (without shrouds).
Difference between B and D is not shrouds
These D also have spigot for vent as do red dot and green dot mk 3 Le Mans B type (shrouded)
Note Op's B type without shrouds will not take these vent lines without chopping off the "ledge"
(http://i.imgur.com/mivgVOY.jpg)
These are same B type I have here and were on all LM and LM2 AFAIK
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And is it likely that a significant mod as the shroud would not earn some kind of marking on the carb? Hmm,-
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w477/kidneb51/DSC01978_zpsa3319c58.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/kidneb51/media/DSC01978_zpsa3319c58.jpg.html)
I let that one go for a couple of days, see if anyone bothered to translate German
red dot and green dot IS marking on carb, dab of paint
There were at least 3 jetting specs for Mk 3 Le Mans, no misprint.
Guzziology listing only 2 has been read as absolute, forgive him, minor typo
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kidneb,
No, it is red one, I don't have photos and now to take them wouldn't be very pretty it has a lot off parts missing, my bad :) I think mine originally also came form Italy, because in German documents it is written that it was imported from Italy to Germany. I will take photos when it will be all in one piece:)
jacksonracingcomau,
So You think that Italian manual can be true, no errors and some LMIII where jetted like it is written in this manual? :)
(http://i.imgur.com/VB7aEnC.jpg)
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jacksonracingcomau,
So You think that Italian manual can be true, no errors and some LMIII where jetted like it is written in this manual? :)
True is not the word I'd use, but definitely possible, in the English manuals there are no end of funny translations and weird typos but I don't know about Italian ones. Equally possible they also had different sets of jets in home market, that picture shows breather vents that are not on your carbs, so not identical to yours anyway. German book and jetting shows 3 different sets.
However it was then, same rules apply still, jets should be what it needs , if it starts and runs well with what you have and plugs read well, there is no problem but pretty cheap to try other sizes.
Fuel is of course, the key to jetting, these bikes all predate unleaded fuel in Europe (but not US) and certainly E10, so jet to fuel you use
If it were me, I'd do it 1 step at a time, quantify the change, definitely main jet first, no point in running 140 if it prefers 132.
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If your mind is set up to live in a chaotic world where certainty is a rare and dubious guest,- this thread is very interesting and informative for us Tonti 850 LM owners.
Just to add to the overwhelming variety of carb specs for the LMIII shown here already, I just found this chart covering all the Tonti and later carbed Guzzis ;
http://www.thepembleton.org.uk/techpages/dellorto/dellorto_specifications.pdf
Interesting how the specs on slides (50/3 versus 60/3) differ in the LMIII specs shown in this thread, and also that the USA LMIII came with PHF36 DD + DS according to this chart, and that they look like lean burn jettings.
So there may even be a shrouded PHF36 D ?
Confusion complete ! ;D
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Equally possible they also had different sets of jets in home market, that picture shows breather vents that are not on your carbs, so not identical to yours anyway. German book and jetting shows 3 different sets.
While not directly equating to the quote, the quote did remind me of my Spot in the shipping crate. It came with, of course, complete and "running" carbs but had another and completely different set of jets taped to the right hand grip.
Were a fella to have bought one Spot and retained the factory installed jets he'd be correct in stating they were the "right" ones - meanwhile - I feel completely correct in stating that mine, removed from the grip and installed in their rightful home are in fact the correct (proper) ones.
Both right... I'm just more right. ;)
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Both right... I'm just more right. ;)
Spot on ;)
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If your mind is set up to live in a chaotic world where certainty is a rare and dubious guest,- this thread is very interesting and informative for us Tonti 850 LM owners.
Just to add to the overwhelming variety of carb specs for the LMIII shown here already, I just found this chart covering all the Tonti and later carbed Guzzis ;
http://www.thepembleton.org.uk/techpages/dellorto/dellorto_specifications.pdf
Interesting how the specs on slides (50/3 versus 60/3) differ in the LMIII specs shown in this thread, and also that the USA LMIII came with PHF36 DD + DS according to this chart, and that they look like lean burn jettings.
So there may even be a shrouded PHF36 D ?
Confusion complete ! ;D
even more complete when you compare that to English version (I have had this in hard copy since 80's)
Almost nothing same, my one has US version as BS and BD
Only proves..........not hing, but maybe these mystery DD and DS's are somewhere,look in book I posted before
http://guzzisti.de/img/upload/service/Dellorto-Katalog%201977%20(Italienisch).2.pdf
1.33.4.620 is PHF 36D-- not clear OE application, doesn't cross reference and don't have vent tubes
but does have bell cranks inferring they were on some Le Mans somewhere along with any of jetting specs mentioned.
Let confusion reign, jet at will , guess modern is same, no end of different maps, both factory and aftermarket, in 30 years time to try and work out what a particular bike "should" have had may be impossible, updates, recalls and fiddles just memories
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Sit Spot , stay , good boy ;D
Dusty
Yep, I'm picking up a bit of angst and competitiveness now too. There appears to be some sort of quest to find the Holy PHF D's and I found them first! ::)
Many of you don't know Martin but he has been working on Guzzis since before I could comb my penis. :D I'd like to thank him as he has presented a few pieces of material that I wasn't aware of. Thanks to Kidneb for pointing out the D's. Funnily I now realise that I have worked on them before.
Ok, now to the PHF D's. I had a look at the bikes I have stored here and low and behold there is an 89 Cali 3 with PHF 30D's. There is absolutely no tuning, I say again tuning, difference to the B's. The jetting would be identical if the shroud system in identical. The 30D's on the Cali have the standard brass ring around the needle aperture and the jetting is consistent with that, 475cc bore cylinder capacity and 30mm chokes. This is why I never noticed the D except for the (D)amn big nut holding on the float bowl.
Why? I can only guess they wanted a bigger reservoir of fuel around the main jet. Not sure why as I've never had an issue with the B's. Maybe being the lowest point in the bowl it allowed more crap to form before affecting things but there is one real advantage that I can see. The Bs had a 14mm AF nut for the bowl. The Ds have a 21mm AF nut. The standard 22mm ring that comes with the standard tool kit for all the oil fillers also fits the D drain. ;-T I can't think of one other 14mm AF nut or bolt on a LM III.
I have a friend with a LM IV and that has the 21mm float nut too. I've never bothered to read the side of his carbs but when working on it the nut is a bigun. Clearly the D's came later but the PHM's had the bigger nut earlier. Maybe they just consolidated the design.
No answers but I just see this as trying to get your head into the Italian way. I'm not even sure that using my logic to try and get sense out of this is the way to go. I just enjoy working my head through an issue. I may never get to the truth but I will reach a better understanding.
Rod in Oz.
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Yep, I'm picking up a bit of angst and competitiveness now too. There appears to be some sort of quest to find the Holy PHF D's and I found them first! ::)
Many of you don't know Martin but he has been working on Guzzis since before I could comb my penis. :D I'd like to thank him as he has presented a few pieces of material that I wasn't aware of. Thanks to Kidneb for pointing out the D's. Funnily I now realise that I have worked on them before.
Ok, now to the PHF D's. I had a look at the bikes I have stored here and low and behold there is an 89 Cali 3 with PHF 30D's. There is absolutely no tuning, I say again tuning, difference to the B's. The jetting would be identical if the shroud system in identical. The 30D's on the Cali have the standard brass ring around the needle aperture and the jetting is consistent with that, 475cc bore cylinder capacity and 30mm chokes. This is why I never noticed the D except for the (D)amn big nut holding on the float bowl.
Why? I can only guess they wanted a bigger reservoir of fuel around the main jet. Not sure why as I've never had an issue with the B's. Maybe being the lowest point in the bowl it allowed more crap to form before affecting things but there is one real advantage that I can see. The Bs had a 14mm AF nut for the bowl. The Ds have a 21mm AF nut. The standard 22mm ring that comes with the standard tool kit for all the oil fillers also fits the D drain. ;-T I can't think of one other 14mm AF nut or bolt on a LM III.
I have a friend with a LM IV and that has the 21mm float nut too. I've never bothered to read the side of his carbs but when working on it the nut is a bigun. Clearly the D's came later but the PHM's had the bigger nut earlier. Maybe they just consolidated the design.
No answers but I just see this as trying to get your head into the Italian way. I'm not even sure that using my logic to try and get sense out of this is the way to go. I just enjoy working my head through an issue. I may never get to the truth but I will reach a better understanding.
Rod in Oz.
No cigar Rod, we knew about them, sorry
It's the 36mm PHF D's you've got to find, OE on some Le Mans (with bell cranks). Not sure why we care but I'm now believing they existed.
I think your correct about nut size consolidation, D's in my book have 14mm nuts same as B's
Probably just 21mm on later models,book shows no vent spigots /shrouds on early D.
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No cigar Rod, we knew about them, sorry
It's the 36mm PHF D's you've got to find, OE on some Le Mans (with bell cranks). Not sure why we care but I'm now believing they existed.
I think your correct about nut size consolidation, D's in my book have 14mm nuts same as B's
Probably just 21mm on later models,book shows no vent spigots /shrouds on early D.
I think I've gotten to a point that I don't care at all but I'll throw in these last pieces of information/theory.
The D's clearly came out after the B's. Even Kidnebs photo shows that later anodised look, they aren't listed in the early Dellorto tuning Guide as the Bs are and D comes after B in the alphabet. :BEER:
If you want to find PHF 36Ds then I'd be looking for the Guzzi mid valve models that came after the Lemans 850 series to find them. They came with PHF 36s. Late Cali III's, last series 1000S's (not imported to Oz I've read) and maybe some of the Stradas and Milles. Not sure but maybe Cali 1100 carb. I'd bet Dusty's last dollar thats where they will be.
No cigar? that's OK, I don't smoke. :BEER:
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Heck Rod , it might be my LAST dollar ::) Wait , AUS or US ? :BEER:
Dusty
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I think I've gotten to a point that I don't care at all but I'll throw in these last pieces of information/theory.
The D's clearly came out after the B's. Even Kidnebs photo shows that later anodised look, they aren't listed in the early Dellorto tuning Guide as the Bs are and D comes after B in the alphabet. :BEER:
If you want to find PHF 36Ds then I'd be looking for the Guzzi mid valve models that came after the Lemans 850 series to find them. They came with PHF 36s. Late Cali III's, last series 1000S's (not imported to Oz I've read) and maybe some of the Stradas and Milles. Not sure but maybe Cali 1100 carb. I'd bet Dusty's last dollar thats where they will be.
No cigar? that's OK, I don't smoke. :BEER:
just to clarify
36 D's are in my early Dell Orto book, with bell crank, pre anodised era, no vents or shrouds , 14mm nut
pic from Kidneb with anodised D is current Gutsibits stock, sold as replacement / add on, not as OE .
"My" mystery D's are not these but the ones in my book, with bell cranks, possibly OE on some LM's (see Kidneb's ref)
My book Nov 1985, lists PHF A-N but not F or L
Just to confirm date, Laverda triples 1980- have PHF D's according to same book, so they're in right time frame .
Sorry Dusty, Rod would've lost your last dollar, is a bit my fault as link I found & posted was 77 book which did only go to PHFB but by 1980 the D had sprung to life.
Here's the early D type, date of print on bottom of page, spot the difference to B type anyone
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/mysterydtype.jpg)
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Relax Dusty, you aren't destitute yet. :D
My Dellorto Tuning Guide referring to PHFs show just the A and B. I can scan it but it won't post to my image folder. Glad your book shows the D but as I stated it isn't in my manual.
Edit, I was able to take a pic and this is what is shown. My Tuning Guide has no print date that I can find.
(http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1/oDCE3Lq892OBryMKpRSp9g337394)
I'm not stating that your Dellorto manual may have inaccuracies but as far as I know the Lavs used the A type as they use the rigid clamp on style.
(http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1/JItRkaeoYcF4K7ZayHWMEg342383)
If you are wondering, that's my hand and my bike. Please note that there simply isn't the room to fit a B (flexible coupling) type in there between the head and filter box.
Many of them came OEM with 32's not 36's.
http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Laverda/laverda_1000_jota%2076.htm (http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Laverda/laverda_1000_jota%2076.htm)
I'm not specifically a Guzzi guy but I do stick with Italians and I'll stick with my original statement that if you find a mid valved 1000 Guzzi from around 1990 I am pretty confident you will be in PHF 36D country.
This is one of those Italian moments, me thinks. :BEER:
Spend that dollar quickly Dusty before he pulls out a Dellorto manual printed on papyrus reeds and written in Latin. :D
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Relax Dusty, you aren't destitute yet. :D
My Dellorto Tuning Guide referring to PHFs show just the A and B. I can scan it but it won't post to my image folder. Glad your book shows the D but as I stated it isn't in my manual.
I'm not stating that your Dellorto manual may have inaccuracies but as far as I know the Lavs used the A type as they use the rigid clamp on style.
If you are wondering, that's my hand and my bike. Please note that there simply isn't the room to fit a B (flexible coupling) type in there between the head and filter box.
Many of them came OEM with 32's not 36's.
http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Laverda/laverda_1000_jota%2076.htm (http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Laverda/laverda_1000_jota%2076.htm)
I'm not specifically a Guzzi guy but I do stick with Italians and I'll stick with my original statement that if you find a mid valved 1000 Guzzi from around 1990 I am pretty confident you will be in PHF 36D country.
This is one of those Italian moments, me thinks. :BEER:
Spend that dollar quickly Dusty before he pulls out a Dellorto manual printed on papyrus reeds and written in Latin. :D
Too late, Dusty, is 32 but 1 x DS and 2 x DD in black and white and yes, I've only seen with A's too
But as Pete so wisely says
(Sigh.)
A common mistake made by people who think they are cleverer than they are is to suggest that because they have never seen something it doesn't exist.
Pete
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/lav1.jpg)
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/lav2.jpg)
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No cigar Rod, we knew about them, sorry
It's the 36mm PHF D's you've got to find, OE on some Le Mans (with bell cranks). Not sure why we care but I'm now believing they existed.
This is your quote Martin.
Read it carefully. :D
According to you only 36's matter so I don't care how many 32s you throw at me they aren't relevant. The PHF 30Ds , in the flesh, I mentioned didn't impress you at all so your 2 dimensional black and white 32's leave me less than tepid. In fact I'm almost insulted you tried such a flimsy trick on me! :D
You tried to flim-flam me with Laverdas but little did you know that i have a very mediocre knowledge and experience of them. :D :D :D :BEER:
I hope you have a grin on your face because I have. I find all this 'trying to quantify Italian logic' hilarious. :BEER:
Rod who thinks we really have gotten as far as we can expect to on this. Like LM I frame numbers, no one at the factory cared enough at the time to keep records that had no relevance to sales or production.
Just my opinion and it is getting time for a beer. I think Dusty's dollar is safe for now. :BEER:
As I cracked my first cold and frosty I thought I would ring the Prez of CLQ (Club Laverda Queensland) as he has been into Lavs for many more years and back to when they were still in production. He can't recall a triple that uses the side pull (belltop) set up. His only question was 'How the f*ck would you route the cables?'
Rod in Oz.
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This is your quote Martin.
Read it carefully. :D
According to you only 36's matter so I don't care how many 32s you throw at me they aren't relevant. The PHF 30Ds , in the flesh, I mentioned didn't impress you at all so your 2 dimensional black and white 32's leave me less than tepid. In fact I'm almost insulted you tried such a flimsy trick on me! :D
You tried to flim-flam me with Laverdas but little did you know that i have a very mediocre knowledge and experience of them. :D :D :D :BEER:
I hope you have a grin on your face because I have. I find all this 'trying to quantify Italian logic' hilarious. :BEER:
Rod who thinks we really have gotten as far as we can expect to on this. Like LM I frame numbers, no one at the factory cared enough at the time to keep records that had no relevance to sales or production.
Just my opinion and it is getting time for a beer. I think Dusty's dollar is safe for now. :BEER:
As I cracked my first cold and frosty I thought I would ring the Prez of CLQ (Club Laverda Queensland) as he has been into Lavs for many more years and back to when they were still in production. He can't recall a triple that uses the side pull (belltop) set up. His only question was 'How the f*ck would you route the cables?'
Rod in Oz.
It is these below that are a mystery to me , really odd part is book shows 4 different sets of Laverda 3 with bell cranks and no straight pull version, I didn't write book and have seen many straight pull. Why different market should get different cables completely beyond me, book in latin Italian.
Back to the mystery 36D with bell cranks, not a later model ,from 1985 or earlier, must be a real train spotter somewhere who knows
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/mysterydtype.jpg)
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How about just jetting the poxy things up so they work?
Who gives a shit what the book says? The book can f*ck my dog!
Pete
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just to clarify
Here's the early D type, date of print on bottom of page, spot the difference to B type anyone
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/mysterydtype.jpg)
Anyone ?
Thanks Martin,- now I don`t feel so alone and abandoned any more ! It`s like finally -after a long , lonely and exhausting walk through an endless desert, to meet a person who gives you water to drink and tells you that he recognizes what you`re saying!
:bow ;D :BEER:
I`ve been searching the web without finding any documentation for the existence of the early PHF36 D`s myself.
just to clarify
36 D's are in my early Dell Orto book, with bell crank, pre anodised era, no vents or shrouds , 14mm nut
Right-
I mainly posted the pic of the newer type, anodized, 21mm float nut D`s to show that they also are rubber mounted like the B type.
Thing is I`ve been monitoring the German eBay for years, and have seen the early type D`s auctioned several times in connection with roundhead LeMans` being chopped up for sale.
And in my usual simple-mindedness and primitive need of jumping to quick conclusions, I believed that (at least many of) the round fin LMs came with the D ,- non shrouded type PHF36`s, and that the LMIII came with shrouded B`s . But I can assure you that I have adopted a more broad and tolerant attitude toward the B versus D issue after following this thread ! ;D
I`ve (reluctantly! :)) given up the idea that all the B`s came shrouded from the factory,- and I`ve learned to accept that also roundfin LM`s came fitted with B type PHF`s !
But I am not yet ready to fully give up the idea that at least some of the round fin LM`s came with the PHF36 D `s,- which also Martins Dellorto catalogue pic could indicate. Thank you for posting that !
So,- as to the difference(s) of the early (14mm float nut) non shrouded B and D type, we still don`t have an answer!
But apart from that,- I fully agree to Vascos last post,- except I`m being ignorant of the doggy thing,- never had one myself ! :P
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Anyone ?
Thanks Martin,- now I don`t feel so alone and abandoned any more ! It`s like finally -after a long , lonely and exhausting walk through an endless desert, to meet a person who gives you water to drink and tells you that he recognizes what you`re saying!
:bow ;D :BEER:
I`ve been searching the web without finding any documentation for the existence of the early PHF36 D`s myself.
Right-
I mainly posted the pic of the newer type, anodized, 21mm float nut D`s to show that they also are rubber mounted like the B type.
Thing is I`ve been monitoring the German eBay for years, and have seen the early type D`s auctioned several times in connection with roundhead LeMans` being chopped up for sale.
But I am not yet ready to fully give up the idea that at least some of the round fin LM`s came with the PHF36 D `s,- which also Martins Dellorto catalogue pic could indicate. Thank you for posting that !
So,- as to the difference(s) of the early (14mm float nut) non shrouded B and D type, we still don`t have an answer!
Your reply here all we ever need to know, if they appear on German ebay as OE LM , chances are they were German market, only thing that jumps out at me is needle clips, just perhaps Germans were more prone to losing the B type clip, so they got the really tiny little clip (#31 in pic) as punishment. If they got funny jetting, it was likely pre shrouds IMHO.
There use to a jerry on here with a few old Guzzis, Jan was his name but I think he offended someone, was going to meet him in Belgium but he didn't like riding in rain so never made it, I'll look for his email and pm it to you, he may know the answer.
Pete , did you mean cattledog ? My Kelpie cross is offended, my Dell Orto catalogue emotionless
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Ah yes, the tiny little E clips. That's what my LM 3s have and I never had an issue years ago but as I get older they seem to have it in for me. :BEER:
There are a couple of simple techniques that can still get them to do what they are told though. ;-T
I was thinking float weights Martin. There are a couple of different ones of those and even though I have no idea why the identifier on the body would change the jetting would be altered.
I've got to say I think the needle clip is a bit of a stretch. :D I'll just throw some ideas out there. The only real difference between a PHF and a PHM is they basically bored out the carb body to such and extent that the standard choke plunger system wouldn't fit so they had to make a tiny little choke box to bolt onto the side. Makes jack all difference to how you deal with them but they gave them a different name.
If you look at the inlet side of a PHF-ish carb here are 3 inlet holes that go to certain fuel circuits. The ones I have here usually have one of these (I can't be bothered to pull carbs off bikes) that have never been drilled/opened/bored. I'm wondering if it a variation in how the circuits are plumbed.
I don't know and I've gotten to the point that I don't care. I'm genuinely glad that Kidneb is a happy man and I'm also glad I participated as I've learned a few things in this thread and dusty memories have been dragged out of archives. If you do ever dig up the Tyrannosaurus D then let me know. I'll happily poke at the fossil. :BEER:
To me the D is the (D)amn big nut on the float bowl. A is for anchored, B is for bouncy and D is for the big nut thing.
Cheers
Your maniacal Italian bike guy in Queensland. :BEER:
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Gentlemen (using the term loosely),
Am in possession of an 850T, snatched from the jaws of death, which I have been piecing back together, bit by bit, over the past three years. It is not stock. Not even remotely close. But neither is it particularly radical.
Am fitting a set of Dellorto PHF 36 carbs to the beast and have been seeking a starting point for the jetting it will use.
Have just waded through this old thread, again, and am struck by the following:
(1) What a wealth of information Wild Goose Chase is. A veritable gold mine, I swear.
(2) What a bunch of laughable tossers many of the contributors are. Said in a kindly and compassionate way. Present company included.
(3) What a nightmare it can be trying to glean consistent data from sources that are Italian, German and with both European and American versions.
Nevertheless, I appreciate all who weigh-in and drink to your health, longevity and cantankerousness.
Late To The Party
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I have purchased a 1983 Le Mans III, but this 'bike has black valve covers, exhausts and wheels, with an engine number beginning with: VF0177** which does not fit with the published information for a LM3, so I am rather confused now. Might anyone be able to cast any light upon this?
This 'bike also has Dellorto PHF 36 D S & D carbs. Are these the "lean burn" type (it came from California) and how should they be jetted?
Thanks.
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Yes, lean burn. Many set-ups depending what bike and intake & exhaust you have. Got a pic?