Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: zari on June 09, 2014, 11:35:03 PM
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hello
I'm countered the old problem with my navada 1994 clutch .
every time after couple of ride , I'm adjust the clutch with the adj pin under the bike , but After a while I needed
to do this job again and again till I can't adj because the screw reach the end .
my friends tell me that is possibility of motor movement and this cause the motor to seat on the puserode and
wear him.(bearing play)
could anyone please comment on this following.
help
this make me mad !!!!!! :wife:
zari :+=copcar :bike
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Hmm , don't believe the motor moving , if it can , would have any bearing on the clutch . Unless you mean the rear main is so bad that the crank is thrashing about and causing problems . I do think that would manifest its self in lots of noise . Have you inspected the cable and actuating arm for damage ?
Dusty
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hello
and thanks for the feedback
I'm already check the cable and the Arm and found thus O.K the cable is new maybe the adjust screw have a play
there is no stopper on it (nut (of a bolt).
waiting for advice
zari :PICS!:
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Zari , we may have a language barrier here , so please be patient with us . Are you saying the clutch will not disengage after some use , or it feels as though it is slipping ?
Dusty
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the clutch will not disengage after some use
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Zari:
First I recommend that you join the discussion forum at yahoo groups, "small_block_guzzi" as there will be many people there with bikes similar to yours.
Second, please tell me more about the symptoms of your hand clutch lever and your cable. When the clutch friction material wears, the clutch system gets tighter and tighter until it begins to slip when hard power is applied. Conversely, when the mechanical parts of the throwout system wear, the clutch system gets looser and looser until it becomes difficult to disengage or to shift gears. I can't quite interpret which problem you have.
Third, do you say that the adjuster in the transmission arm has no nut on it? That would be incorrect. It must have a lock nut or it will change adjustment while you drive.
Fourth, tell me how much you adjust the system. Do you 'snug' it up until all the components are tight? That is a BAD thing to do for a Guzzi. The rear of the transmission has a radial throwout bearing. It is intended to move or work only when you pull the clutch handle to change gears. That bearing is NOT intended for constant rotation. If you adjust your system tight, the bearing works constantly and then wears very rapidly. When the Guzzi clutch is adjusted properly, there should always be some looseness or freeplay in the cable so that the lever at the back of the transmission is NOT touching the clutch throwout parts.
Fifth, see #4 above. If you let the bearing wear, it can then do serious damage to the center of the clutch components and you will have to remove the engine/transmission to correct it. I would immediately remove the swingarm and remove the throwout bearing from the back of the transmission. It is a radial bearing with two 'race washers'. These race washers have a very hard bearing surface, but the hardness does not penetrate very deep. Once you wear through the hard surface, the softer underlying steel wears very rapidly. All kinds of bad things happen to the clutch and transmission. Here is a picture of a worn bearing. Both of those race washers should be mirror smooth.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/MVC-060L_zpsbb22df21.jpg)
Sixth, the suggestion of motor moving or crankshaft moving seems false. Either would be an exceedingly rare circumstance.
Seventh, go under your bike with a camera and with a light. When all the parts are new, the 'outer body' of the throwout system should be flush with the surrounding casting of the rear transmission cover like this:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/smallblock/RepairedBearing_zps644f0733.jpg)
As the friction material wears, the outer body begins to protrude outward from the transmission. As the throwout components wear, the outer body begins to become recessed into the transmission like this:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/smallblock/RecessedBearing.jpg)
Which condition do you have? I highly suspect the latter condition. Please inspect and report back. If you can, please post a picture of the rear of your transmission showing the lever and its contact with the throwout system. If you take my advice and remove the swingarm, please post a picture of your throwout bearing components.
Lastly, the arm at the back of the transmission is a class-2 lever and it produces about 5:1 mechanical advantage. That ratio also applies to the motion of the parts. 1mm of motion or wear in the throwout system will produce about 5mm of change in the cable adjustment! Most people don't realize that tiny amounts of wear in the component parts can create huge and rapid changes in the cable system.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Hmm , don't believe the motor moving , if it can , would have any bearing on the clutch . Unless you mean the rear main is so bad that the crank is thrashing about and causing problems . I do think that would manifest its self in lots of noise . Have you inspected the cable and actuating arm for damage ?
Dusty
Small-blocks do have a thrust bearing, no. 9 in this illustration:
(http://www.stein-dinse.biz/bilder/auto/breite_800/303038313030.gif)
I suppose if these were worn enough the crank could move forward and cause the described issue.
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:winer thanks about your answer tell me what do you think about next another friend answer (wear bearing inside the motor)? see next answer
best regards
zari :bike
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Gonna take lots of coffee to understand that last question :D **C . Zari , try rephrasing that last one , and no , I am not picking on you , what is your native tongue ?
Dusty
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nothing wrong with the engine ,
but do inspect the throwour beaing.
the throwout bearing can pulled out from the back , but you might need to remove the swingarm.
dont ride the bike with a defective throwout bearing , debris is going to end up in the gearbox bearing ,
to change that means a complete gearbox strip.
( and it is a special guzzi bearing)
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The clutch will not disengage after some use and i must adj the tension by adj screw under the bike , but after a couple of adjust , I can't doing this job because the screw reach the end . I hope this help to view my problems
best regards
Zari :+=copcar :PICS!:
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The clutch will not disengage after some use and i must adj the tension by adj screw under the bike , but after a couple of adjust , I can't doing this job because the screw reach the end . I hope this help to view my problems
best regards
Zari :+=copcar :PICS!:
OK , shot in the dark here , actually two shots . First , are you adjusting the free play correctly at the lever , and is there any adjustment left at the lever ? I have a theory that if the clutch cable is adjusted to tight and the clutch is on the verge of slipping all of the time, the heat generated expansion causes problems . Don't scoff , I have seen this more than once .
Dusty
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hello
what is the Dimensions (length and D) of the push road clutch? I want to compare between my and the original . picture(http://www.stein-dinse.biz/images/product_images/popup_images/20085720.jpg
:PICS!: :bike :+=copcar
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this is the pic of my clutch plate
are this central hole is ok I MEAN ORIGINAL OR IS THE RESULT OF WEAR ?(https://www.flickr.com/photos/119534634@N05/14582129431/
:wife: :+=copcar :PICS!:
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hello
how can I check this bearing free play without open the crank ? :PICS!: :bike :beat_horse
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how can I check this bearing free play without open the crank ? :PICS!: :+=copcar :bike
Small-blocks do have a thrust bearing, no. 9 in this illustration:
(http://www.stein-dinse.biz/bilder/auto/breite_800/303038313030.gif)
I suppose if these were worn enough the crank could move forward and cause the described issue.
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If you are talking about the thrust bearings (9).. I would think a dial indicator on the end of the crankshaft snout would tell if there is any fore and aft movement.
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Zari: Have you removed the swingarm and removed the throwout bearing at the back of the transmission? We need photos of that bearing at the back of the transmission. This discussion is going nowhere until we know the condition of that bearing.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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throwout bearing at the back of the transmission some pic
https://www.flickr.com/photos/119534634@N05/sets/72157644011196104/ :bike :+=copcar :beat_horse
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It looks like the thrust races have used up about 120% of their expected lifespan.
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I've seen this before. Replace the thrust bearing, inner body, outer body, and push rod. Not too expensive. The thrust bearing caused the damage to the other parts. The pictures you posted told the story. The burned end of the push rod showed it wasn't rotating with the clutch lever pulled in. That is the job of the thrust bearing. Unfortunately, that also damages the inner and outer bodies.
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Hello
What do you mean. Inner and. Outer bodies. Please explain
What kind of damage it can cause
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The two parts the thrust bearing and its races sit between.
Pete
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I offered to replace all components of. The. Clutch Is it supposed to solve the problem? :+=copcar
Could it be more serious damage
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Inner and outer bodies, races. Are these....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/eroman/14419746669_4e21771461_q.jpg)
Should look like one of these....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/eroman/12087001.jpg)
(picture obviously borrowed from MGCycles.)
Your clutch, (the friction and driven plates) should be fine.
Replace the throwout bearing (MGCycle picture) and probably your rod.
Tobit
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I've seen this before. Replace the thrust bearing, inner body, outer body, and push rod. Not too expensive. The thrust bearing caused the damage to the other parts. The pictures you posted told the story. The burned end of the push rod showed it wasn't rotating with the clutch lever pulled in. That is the job of the thrust bearing. Unfortunately, that also damages the inner and outer bodies.
:+1
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Hello everybody
I just finish to replace all clutch parts. Push rod bearing .and ... But I have. One question. When I see the. Corona. (Timing hole). See in att digram. And. Push the clutch. Lever. I see. The corona moving forward 1 millimeter when I. Released lever the corona moving back is this. Normal
Pic link https://picasaweb.google.com/m/viewer?fgl=true&pli=1#search/117012899164096054821/clutch/6138605363513925346
Please help :+=copcar
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I can't see your picture.
If you mean that you see the edge of the flywheel (corona? crown?) moves forward and backward with the clutch, a little bit is normal. The crankshaft is loose end-to-end and needs to float. You could easily move it by hand with a screwdriver in the timing hole and hear a little 'clunk' noise. The amount of float is set up by the front main bearing and is not adjustable. So don't worry about it. ;-T
Good to ask though.
How's the project coming along?
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The early 650C had a small batch of mismade crank thrust bearings that deformed when the case halfs were bolted together. It would destroy the thrust flange on the crankshaft . The symptoms would be that an engine perfectly tuned would die when the clutch lever was pulled in when warmed up. You can visually see the crank move fore and aft by pulling the lever which moves the crank forward then using a screwdriver through the inspection hole prying the crank aft you will be able to see the total end float, engine off. With the thrust too much the crank is being squeezed against the forward crankcase wall or moving away from the clutch pushrod. Your friend is wise and with a millimeter or more end float I suspect a crankshaft thrust bearing problem.
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hello
what do you think about answer from john suspect a crankshaft thrust bearing problem. :PICS!: :beat_horse :bike :winer
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to do the job a replace the suspect crankshaft thrust bearing I have to disassemble the engine? :+=copcar :+=copcar :+=copcar :+=copcar
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Try to measure the crank end float accurately. 1mm is far too much (40 thou). I recently had to check out the end float on my Le Mans 2 and it came in at 0.12mm / 4.7 thou, which gives you an idea of how much in excess 1mm / 40 thou is.
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Thanks guys, for the timely revival of this thread, I may well have missed it. (So what else have I missed?)
Timely because the V7C's clutch has started slipping - especially under load out of an uphill corner - and I've been loosing available cable adjustment. Those photos of the outer body in post #5 helped. It looks like the thrust bearing is worn - see my photos. But as the clutch is slipping as well, I think that the friction plate might be worn as well - the bike has only done 120,000k (75,000 miles).
(http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n538/hatihati/V7C%20clutch/clutch%20arm%20outer%20body%201.jpg)
(http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n538/hatihati/V7C%20clutch/clutch%20arm%20outer%20body%202.jpg)
Do you think I should try releasing the adjuster screw on the arm to find out if the outer body sits further out without the pressure? The locknut releases, but with the swingarm in place, getting at the end of the adjuster screw is difficult. (I note that the clutch operating arm - called the "1 clutch release shaft" in the parts manual - has been relocated on the V7 II to the same place as on the 1100 Sport, so easier to access).
My thoughts as of this morning, are that I should replace the thrust bearing first & see how the affects things. I would prefer to put off taking the clutch apart as long as possible - that would need a few days at least for me and a roof would be convenient. Oh for a shed! I'm going to need to do it anyway, sooner, rather than later, as I've still to replace the gearshift return spring, bush & replace the kickstand pivot bolt, and straighten the centrestand.
Mal
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Hello
OK. Oust finish to assemble the clutch rod and all and go out to test drive. I. Push. Gear no 1 but when I try to move up. 2 3 4 5 Can't. Sucsses the gear seem to be stuck. Why. 1. And neutral OK help. Please :bike :+=copcar
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Have you moved the bolt at the rear of the gearbox return spring adjustment.
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/72%20Eldo/Pawl%20Adjustment_zpsdxkxdsoo.jpg)
When you move the gear pedal by hand does it spring back when you let go?
Here's a link I found very useful when doing the 5 speed on my Eldorado
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_complex-technical_gearbox-rebuilding-pictures.htm
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The inner and outer bodies I refered to are sometimes called top-hats because of their shape. They are the parts that fit over both ends of the pushrod.
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after assemble all new pushrod parts take some pic what do you think about the space (red in the pic )
link pic https://plus.google.com/photos/117012899164096054821/albums/6143502760799046225?authkey=CJeUi6La2sXxOA :+=copcar :+=copcar :+=copcar
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after assemble all new pushrod parts take some pic what do you think about the space (red in the pic )
link pic https://plus.google.com/photos/117012899164096054821/albums/6143502760799046225?authkey=CJeUi6La2sXxOA
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hELLO
ARE THIS STATUS OF GEAR ARM MECHANISM (PIC ) IS CORRECT? (ALL 90 DEGREE) I MEAN IN NEUTRAL MODE
https://plus.google.com/photos/117012899164096054821/albums/6144961593004982689?authkey=CLSsjrLX1O-mFQ :winer :wife: :wife:
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hELLO
ARE THIS STATUS OF GEAR ARM MECHANISM (PIC ) IS CORRECT? (ALL 90 DEGREE) I MEAN IN NEUTRAL MODE
https://plus.google.com/photos/117012899164096054821/albums/6144961593004982689?authkey=CLSsjrLX1O-mFQ :winer :wife: :wife:
Yes all 90* when possible, adjust lever angle with rod length adjustment.