Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Guzzitr6 on September 23, 2014, 06:01:49 PM
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Hi Guys!
I have a '74 Eldorado and a host of other loop framed bikes and they all need clutches.
I asked a Moto Guzzi specialist shop in Southern California and got no legitimate answer and only concern that I might "f**k it up" ....very professional
I was hoping to get some help here.
When I am measuring the transmission input shaft for the dimensions of the splines, am I concerned with the height or the width of the splines? Apparently there is a 2mm version and a 4mm version
...also, is there a preferred clutch disk for a bike to be ridden regularly? Apparently there are $400 discs and $75 discs. Big difference. Help!
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I just did my 74 T, which is exactly the same clutch.
Get the 4mm spline hub and friction plates to match. OEM friction plates are $75 each, you need two per bike. If clutches have sat in engagement for a long time they may be stuck -- in which case you'll have to clean up the intermediate plate (one per bike) and the clutch-facing surfaces of the flywheel and pressure plate.
You can't screw anything up taking it apart, and if you use your head it goes together pretty easily. The new spline hub will serve to align the friction plates but you'll need to acquire an expensive tool for aligning the intermediate plate, else it will bend. You can make a cheap effective tool with an 8mm bolt and a cap for 3" ABS pipe -- I'll post a photo of my rig -- for about $6 and five minutes with a drill and saw.
Oh, and you'll need to buy or borrow the special pegged socket to take off the splined-hub nut. This tool: http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80&products_id=657
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I've not had to do an Eldo clutch for about thirty years, but I'd love to see that tool. Thanks...
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When I am measuring the transmission input shaft for the dimensions of the splines, am I concerned with the height or the width of the splines? Apparently there is a 2mm version and a 4mm version
...also, is there a preferred clutch disk for a bike to be ridden regularly? Apparently there are $400 discs and $75 discs. Big difference. Help!
The splines you are concerned with are actually on the clutch hub. The 2 mm or 4 mm dimension is the spline depth. It seems that 2 mm hubs are in very short supply, so most folks use the 4 mm hub and matching plates.
4 mm clutch hub: http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1163
(http://www.mgcycle.com/images/atrex/30081810.jpg)
For clutch plates, I use the bonded and riveted SD-Tech plates with a solid center:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1165
(http://www.mgcycle.com/images/atrex/30084410sd.jpg)
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The 4mm splines are also reputed to be more durable -- more area in engagement etc. I'll just say that my 2mm hub was pretty chewed up after about 60,000 miles.
Here's the info on my cheap centering tool. You'll need
==>a cap for 3" waste pipe.
==> A 12mm bolt (not 8mm as I wrote previously -- these senior moments are annoying). 1.5mm thread pitch. Length depends on the depth of the pipe cap -- bolt needs to extend 60mm beyond the end of the cap. A 120mm bolt may be perfect; I used 100mm and had to cut about half an inch off the cap leaving an inside depth of about 30mm in the cap.
Use a 12mm or 1/2" drill bit to run the bolt through the center of the cap as shown. With the splined hub in place on the crankshaft end, assemble the clutch plates WITHOUT the thrust piece, so you can thread the bolt into the crankshaft. The rim of the cap will now sit on the rivets of the top friction plate. Note that I used a washer to prevent the bolt head scoring the plastic cap.
At this point the teeth of the intermediate plate sit just clear of the outer splines in the flywheel. As you tighten the bolt, you can turn the intermediate plate as needed to slip into engagement. Then drop the starter ring gear in place and bolt it down. Unscrew the center bolt, pull the splined hub, drop in the thrust piece and voila.
(https://skiyoungernow.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/clutchcenteringtool1.jpg)
(https://skiyoungernow.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/clutchcenteringtool2.jpg)
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Simple enough to make an aluminum spacer to fit inside the new clutch hub and then use the hub to both align the friction plates and compress the springs.
(http://www.antietamclassiccycle.com/toms_v7_sport/Tom_s_V7_Sport_12192013_005.JPG)
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Simple enough to make an aluminum spacer to fit inside the new clutch hub and then use the hub to both align the friction plates and compress the springs.
:+1
Exactly how I made my tool too. I don`t know why some people obviously find it appealing to include the friction- and intermediate plates in the compressing procedure.
And :+1 on the deep spline hub and the SD-Tech friction plates.
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Simple enough to make an aluminum spacer to fit inside the new clutch hub and then use the hub to both align the friction plates and compress the springs.
Nice. You could even use a stack of washers.
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Hey Charlie, how did you like the clutch action with those SD tech plates? I put the same ones, and a new 4mm hub on my eldo. I had the clutch hub coated with "cermalube" by a gent. in the northeast that does that. I previously had those solid "Sureflex" plates with 2mm hub.( now that was one grabby sucker!) I expected a nicer clutch action with a smoother friction zone, but its still kinda "abrupt" you have to feather the lever over narrow friction point, that sometimes feels like a ON/OFF switch.
Rick.
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Hey Charlie, how did you like the clutch action with those SD tech plates? I put the same ones, and a new 4mm hub on my eldo. I had the clutch hub coated with "cermalube" by a gent. in the northeast that does that. I previously had those solid "Sureflex" plates with 2mm hub.( now that was one grabby sucker!) I expected a nicer clutch action with a smoother friction zone, but its still kinda "abrupt" you have to feather the lever over narrow friction point, that sometimes feels like a ON/OFF switch.
Rick.
The clutch engagement does seem slightly more aggressive than other plates such as the "Newfren", customers report that it gets better with use. As Chuck says <shrug>. ;D
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im gona stick with 2mm spline on my eldo, my hubs mint so why change it? shrug
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since everyone seems to go to deep spline clutchs has anyone got a good pair of shallow spline plates they want to get rid of? mine are good but oil soaked, there were no o rings on the clutch pushrod. can they be successfully cleaned?
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since everyone seems to go to deep spline clutchs has anyone got a good pair of shallow spline plates they want to get rid of? mine are good but oil soaked, there were no o rings on the clutch pushrod. can they be successfully cleaned?
You may be able to clean yours by soaking them in a solvent, like lacquer thinner, but they will never be like plates that were not exposed to oil.
I have a pair of Sureflex plates I replaced in my eldo, not because they were worn, but because I wanted to go with a new 4mm hub, The Sureflex plates have little use, and they are a very tough clutch plate,favored by guys that pull a trailer ,or sidecar, but known to be "grabby" when you take off from a stop. At this point, I cant say for sure, that my SD tech clutch, with 4 mm hub, is much smoother than the sureflex, with 2mm hub.
Rick.
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My plates got some trans grease on them too. I washed mine in dawn dish soap then took them out to the garage and I took some ashes from my wood stove and layered the plates on an old cookie sheet in the ashes. Set the sheet on the woodstove and let them sit for a week and it cooked the oil out. They don't even smell like gear lube anymore. So I'm using them. Time will tell.
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That sounds like a good idea. Using Dawn rather than solvent, won't soak in. ;-T
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Simple enough to make an aluminum spacer to fit inside the new clutch hub and then use the hub to both align the friction plates and compress the springs.
(http://www.antietamclassiccycle.com/toms_v7_sport/Tom_s_V7_Sport_12192013_005.JPG)
Note here that Charlie has drawn a black arrow at TDC on the perimeter of the flywheel. The spring-loaded pressure plate has one tooth with an alignment tic on it and that plate MUST be aligned properly with the flywheel in order for the internal springs to seat properly. Common error for new Guzzi mechanics.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Hi Guys!
I have a '74 Eldorado and a host of other loop framed bikes and they all need clutches.
I asked a Moto Guzzi specialist shop in Southern California and got no legitimate answer and only concern that I might "f**k it up" ....very professional
I was hoping to get some help here.
When I am measuring the transmission input shaft for the dimensions of the splines, am I concerned with the height or the width of the splines? Apparently there is a 2mm version and a 4mm version
...also, is there a preferred clutch disk for a bike to be ridden regularly? Apparently there are $400 discs and $75 discs. Big difference. Help!
Don't know where you went, but Mark at MGC will do good job, as will Sean Fader, he did my clutches while he worked for Mark and now has his own shop.
Mark got me resurfaced clutch plates for ~80 and still working good. If you called MGC and did not get good service, call again and ask for Mark, his help may not have the most people skills ~; If you went to Cycle Garden, well, you will need more than a clutch, you will need some chrome and powdercoating ;D
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I also got my plates from Mark at Moto Guzzi Classics, and they work very well. I hear good things about his brakes, too.
By the way, if you happen to prefer not to make your own clutch alignment tool, it looks like the one from MG Cycle has gone down in price:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80&products_id=2618 (http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80&products_id=2618)
Good instructions here as to how to go about this, too.
Finally, be aware that the intermediate plates can sometimes suffer from coning, resulting in problems. If yours is good, no problem, but they don't cost that much to replace:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=220 (http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=220)
Cheers,
Shaun
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Guzzitr6, it is not that difficult. Perhaps a bit time consuming. Take step by step notes as you disassemble and have a helper when you pull the engine/ tranny out of the frame.
By the time you are done you will know the bike(s) quite well.
Do a few steps each evening aftet work and it will be done quicker than you expected.
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Note here that Charlie has drawn a black arrow at TDC on the perimeter of the flywheel. The spring-loaded pressure plate has one tooth with an alignment tic on it and that plate MUST be aligned properly with the flywheel in order for the internal springs to seat properly. Common error for new Guzzi mechanics.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
To resurrect an old thread, the arrow on my flywheel correlates to not much. Is this merely something to correct when taking out the clutch, or is the arrow just there to reference the alignment mark on the plate? I currently have the engine out, pulley is TDC for the Left cylinder, arrow on the flywheel is almost at the bottom of the flywheel. For someone that hasn't yet removed the clutch on a Guzzi, this thread is a little confusing. Done BMW and multi-plate Jap and Austrian bikes, but this is a little different it seems.
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To resurrect an old thread, the arrow on my flywheel correlates to not much. Is this merely something to correct when taking out the clutch, or is the arrow just there to reference the alignment mark on the plate? I currently have the engine out, pulley is TDC for the Left cylinder, arrow on the flywheel is almost at the bottom of the flywheel. For someone that hasn't yet removed the clutch on a Guzzi, this thread is a little confusing. Done BMW and multi-plate Jap and Austrian bikes, but this is a little different it seems.
The arrow denotes Top Dead Center. When the left (viewed from the flywheel side of the engine) cylinder is at TDC, the arrow should align with the left nub cast into the engine case. You can see it just clockwise of the arrow in my photo in a previous post. If the arrow on the pulley is pointing to TDC for the left cylinder, then so should the arrow on the flywheel.
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The arrow denotes Top Dead Center. When the left (viewed from the flywheel side of the engine) cylinder is at TDC, the arrow should align with the left nub cast into the engine case. You can see it just clockwise of the arrow in my photo in a previous post. If the arrow on the pulley is pointing to TDC for the left cylinder, then so should the arrow on the flywheel.
It definitely is not pointed anywhere but the ground in my case. At least the front pulley is correct. I will hope to re-clock it when I pull it part.
Arrow is below the orange mark.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Moto-Guzzi/i-PfKNqXx/0/0c4a68c9/X3/IMG_8654-X3.jpg) (https://b-rod.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Moto-Guzzi/i-PfKNqXx/A)
Front pulley, verified with the left connecting rod at TDC.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Moto-Guzzi/i-SSZsMb6/0/c8110e72/X3/IMG_8655-X3.jpg) (https://b-rod.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Moto-Guzzi/i-SSZsMb6/A)
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The flywheel was reinstalled incorrectly at some point, it's two bolt holes counter-clockwise from where it should be. Easy to fix.
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Sadly my clutch falling out in a rain of dust and chunks is not quite as easy. :sad: