Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vasco DG on November 19, 2014, 12:23:56 AM
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This one, an early A5, had the full complement of factory screw ups. What a POS!
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5602/15801127216_3c92f65d09.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/15801127216/)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7576/15639363458_2e65c621fa.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/15639363458/)
What a terrible thing these new bikes are, despite the fact that it took me really only about 1/2 an hour more to get to this point on a Griso than it would on a Mk V LeMans. Can't see what anyone sees in them........
Pete
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And here I thought you were the converted one.
So what did enzo do on the friday arvo special that has raised your ire?
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I thought you said late model bikes were 100% reliable?
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No problem. Just took six years for the problems to manifest themselves. Never happened thirty years ago, ever.....
Obviously we need a sarcasm emoticon. ::)
Pete
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Well I just love Em :-*
I would be sleeping with mine, :drool, but it's Metric and I'm Imperial :'(
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This one, an early A5, had the full complement of factory screw ups. What a POS!
What a terrible thing these new bikes are, despite the fact that it took me really only about 1/2 an hour more to get to this point on a Griso than it would on a Mk V LeMans. Can't see what anyone sees in them........
Pete
This one of just serviced cam failures ? mileage ?
If it's getting correct length bolts for bearing flange at same time, that took awhile to show, shame, would've been warranty claim if it'd been used new.
Did it eat it's carc bearings too ?
What other factory screw ups are there, apart from mapping which we know you're now happy with aftermarket fix ?
POS indeed, predictable when Piaggio took control, everything de tomasso was accused of now taking place, actually his years were the glory ones.
V7 series excluded of course, someone bright was in charge of that project, haven't heard of problem there.
SB's may be Guzzi's forever bike, Chuck's drone engine (or a 4V) with 6-7" travel would be a very wise move IMHO, priced to sell
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This one of just serviced cam failures ? mileage ?
If it's getting correct length bolts for bearing flange at same time, that took awhile to show, shame, would've been warranty claim if it'd been used new.
Did it eat it's carc bearings too ?
What other factory screw ups are there, apart from mapping which we know you're now happy with aftermarket fix ?
POS indeed, predictable when Piaggio took control, everything de tomasso was accused of now taking place, actually his years were the glory ones.
V7 series excluded of course, someone bright was in charge of that project, haven't heard of problem there.
SB's may be Guzzi's forever bike, Chuck's drone engine (or a 4V) with 6-7" travel would be a very wise move IMHO, priced to sell
Yes Martin, whatever you say.
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LOL, go for it guys :pop
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/-_fighting_red_kangaroos_1.jpg)
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Oh no , It's a white 09 just like mine. Hope I can shake that visual soon. Like a fricken horror movie. Thanks Pete.
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And let it be noted Pete does all his work on a HF lift! Mine should last forever!
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Actually that is my secondary and far the least favourite bench. I bought it as an experiment and it's really pretty horrible. My primary bench is currently full of a dead Norge with no rear shock though so I can't move it! Bloody Australia Post lost the shock on its way back to Albury for a warranty rebuild so I've been condemned to working on this bit of shit for the time being. It's OK but it's narrow and flimsy. I don't entirely trust it. Any port in a storm though.....
Pete
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Well, it's only POS Griso on the HF lift, it's not like you have a good bike at risk..... ::)
<sarcasism off>
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Hmmm
I have a white 09.
Climate here is definitely cold(ish) and wet(ish)
Maybe I should give swapping to roller tappets another thought?
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My primary bench is currently full of a dead Norge with no rear shock though so I can't move it!
Pete
Can't you make a 'mock' shock using a piece of steel strap/bar/quad/angle with a whole at each end and a couple of bolts? ???
I know it will be a rigid frame but so is a wheelbarrow. ;-T
Rod
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I could. I can't be arsed though! ;D
Pete
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Hmmm
I have a white 09.
Climate here is definitely cold(ish) and wet(ish)
Maybe I should give swapping to roller tappets another thought?
As long as you have a full service history it shouldn't be a problem. If they go tits you *Should* get a kit from the factory BUT it is dependent on a final decision from there.
I bought my own kit, it wasn't cheap, so far I haven't felt the need to install it, my bike is running so superbly at the moment I can't see any reason to pull it to bits.
If your bike doesn't have a FSH it might be worth considering replacing them on spec simply because of the damage that may be caused by the disintegrating tappets.
Pete
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Well this terrible thing is nearly back together,
I got waylaid by a bloke who was passing through who had had his bike serviced at another place and they'd tried to lower the idle speed with the throttle stop screw so it was running like a POS. Luckily they hadn't re-set the TPS, (Apparently they plugged in the box that goes 'Ping' and gawped at it for a few minutes and then unplugged it and said everything was rosy and didn't adjust anything, thank God!) so I was able to un-screw it up easily. He was charged $700 dollars for the privilege of having these monkeys damage his bike! No worries, all good but it ate into the rear main replacement time. I charged him a pineapple and then bought him a beer. I think he was happy enough with that. ;D
The White Lightning should be all done and dusted early tomorrow. Nice bike, an early A5 like mine but nowhere near as noisy, mind you it's only done 30,000. Mines up at 80! :D
Pete
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My primary bench is currently full of a dead Norge with no rear shock though so I can't move it! Bloody Australia Post lost the shock on its way back to Albury for a warranty rebuild so I've been condemned to working on this bit of shit for the time being
Pete
Rookie mistake Pete:)
Ciao
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No problem. Just took six years for the problems to manifest themselves. Never happened thirty years ago, ever.....
Flaking chrome bores anyone?
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Flaking chrome bores anyone?
Grooved transmission input drive gear splines (clutch lockup).
Misaligned transmission to engine bell housings.
Rear drive failures.
U-Joint and carrier bearing failures.
Timing chain tensioner guide blocks coming apart.
Torque converter center hub cracking and failure.
Porous engine block casting leaks.
Fading paint, general flaking chrome trim and crappy short side stands.
Aha yes, the glory days. ;)
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Crownwheel bolts jumping ship.
Sebac fork dampers that blew as they rolled the bike off the end of the production line.
Too short speedo cables that only lasted a few weeks.
Self-immolating switchgear!
Crappily shimmed selector drums.
Snapping gear change return springs.
And more recently;
Gearboxes that filled up with water flung off the rear wheel.
Oil starvation!
Timing chest covers that crack if the bike falls off its stand.
Cracking gearbox mounts.
Un-tightenable exhaust balance pipes.
The list is endless! Compared to some of the older bikes the 8V is a paragon of Swiss-watch like reliability! ;D
Pete
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Wow
I bought a good one, obviously
Must've dodged a bullet, 37 years ago, took me round the world, still my everyday transport.
Fork dampers and timing chain were stupid, switchgear & wiring a bit howsyerfather, rest awesome. Fixed without thought
To some, Carc disintegrating, fuel mapping needing expertise, oil flying out behind clutch and cam doing what it does is better, choice, a good thing.
Not going into why you need a van if it rains, still can't quite get that bit, never will, only an idiot would ride a Griso in rain apparently, are they cleverer with sun shining ?
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Not going into why you need a van if it rains, still can't quite get that bit, never will, only an idiot would ride a Griso in rain apparently, are they cleverer with sun shining ?
Yup. Not everyone needs to be a needy masochist. Get well soon.
Pete
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There's no curing a troll Pete. It's best just to ignore them.
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There's no curing a troll Pete. It's best just to ignore them.
;-T
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Yeah, but I don't use 'Ignore' buttons and I've always been drawn like a moth to the flame by know it all's.
It all reminds me a bit of the opening scenes of Jurasic Park with the mosquitoes trapped in Amber.
:D
Pete
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Yup. Not everyone needs to be a needy masochist. Get well soon.
Pete
Not often I take offence but I have, many motorcycling friends of mine are actually female , not macho or masochist, motorcycling is a form of transport, enjoyable rain or shine
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Not often I take offence but I have, many motorcycling friends of mine are actually female , not macho or masochist, motorcycling is a form of transport, enjoyable rain or shine
Masochist = enjoying pain, often self inflicted (as in S&M and old motorbikes!)
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Yeah, but I don't use 'Ignore' buttons and I've always been drawn like a moth to the flame by know it all's
Yeah, but you know what they say about arguing with idiots. :D
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Ok, I think we've learnt something here.
Sorry Martin. Look after yourself.
Pete
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Ok, I think we've learnt something here.
Sorry Martin. Look after yourself.
Pete
Sorry, I failed 'Macho Posturing' at school. ;D
Apologies accepted, Merchant banking more up your alley ?
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Hi Pete,
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I bought my own kit, it wasn't cheap, so far I haven't felt the need to install it, my bike is running so superbly at the moment I can't see any reason to pull it to bits.
If your bike doesn't have a FSH it might be worth considering replacing them on spec simply because of the damage that may be caused by the disintegrating tappets.
Pete
I too want to change my G12 to roller tappets.
It's what you wrote, my engine is still clean on the inside.
What will happen to the rest of the engine if my tappets are going to fail?
I want to do this rebuild this coming winter in Europe.
My G12 has no official history at Moto Guzzi, so I have to pay it myself.
But I can chose to rebuild it before something bad happens.
Which kit did you buy?
My G12 2009 probably needs kit C, but it costs € 1350 (almost Aus $ 2000)
What if I buy kit B, € 702, (Aus $ 1030). Together with the extra parts from kit C?
Such head gaskets, inlet and outlet gaskets, sims for under the valve springs and other small parts.
It's a lot cheaper.
Or isn't that possible, for some reason?
Ad B
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Perfectly possible. The reason for the extra expense is almost certainly that the 'C' kit includes three sets of head gaskets as well as the shims and knick-knacks like guide seals.
The gasket choices are important as not only will getting the squish correct combat detonation and reduce oxides of nitrogen but they also have a bearing on cam chain tension and therefore life.
You can pull the heads though and measure the gaskets, you don't need the DTI holder, then simply buy the ones you need. As long as you aren't replacing barrels? No issue.
Pete
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Pete, there are three thickness for the head gasket in 0.2mm increment from 0.65mm
0.65mm
0.85mm
1.05mm
Will the old gasket get compressed and gives measurements in between the three thickness i.e. 0.75mm, 0.95mm?
I was hoping there is some marking/indication on the gasket itself for easier identification.
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Being laminated steel they don't really compress in any meaningful way. You can micrometer them up and pick which you need. They have a coating on them but it's very thin, if push came to shove you could probably spray them with copper based gasket sealant and re-use them but why would you?
Pete
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Being laminated steel they don't really compress in any meaningful way. You can micrometer them up and pick which you need. They have a coating on them but it's very thin, if push came to shove you could probably at them with copper based gasket sealant and re-use them but why would you?
Pete
Learnt a new English sentence today - "if push came to shove" ;D
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You're welcome. What on earth are you doing sitting in front of a computer at this time in the morning? Don't tell me you're a chronic insomniac too! ???
Pete
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The last good sleep I had was probably in 2005.
I am reading the squish setting in Guzzi manual, interesting piece of gadget the Italian had designed.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/squish_zps6a1b3f79.jpg)
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The last good sleep I had was probably in 2005.
I am reading the squish setting in Guzzi manual, interesting piece of gadget the Italian had designed.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/squish_zps6a1b3f79.jpg)
Its just a dial indicator and mount plate...nothing special
Ciao
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Pete, there are three thickness for the head gasket in 0.2mm increment from 0.65mm
0.65mm
0.85mm
1.05mm
Will the old gasket get compressed and gives measurements in between the three thickness i.e. 0.75mm, 0.95mm?
I was hoping there is some marking/indication on the gasket itself for easier identification.
Oh, Phang, the gaskets may have a paint mark on the edge. White for thin ones, yellow for middle ones and none I could see on the thick ones.
Pete
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I just found this photo
It is a 0.85mm (part# 874622) medium thickness head gasket.
A stroke of yellow paint confirms that ;-T
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/headgasket_zpsab2b405b.jpg)
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I just found this photo
It is a 0.85mm (part# 874622) medium thickness head gasket.
A stroke of yellow paint confirms that ;-T
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/headgasket_zpsab2b405b.jpg)
No, a pair of verniers confirms that. These are parts from Italy remember:)
Ciao
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No, a pair of verniers confirms that. These are parts from Italy remember:)
Ciao
You are damn right, I have encountered many errors i.e. engine oil fill volume, spark plug torque, colour codes in the wiring diagram etc.
Stay skeptical is the word of the day ;D
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Hi Pete and Phang,
thanks for all your info.
The more I read, the more I'm getting to know about our Griso's.
Pete, here's a part of a quote.
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The gasket choices are important as not only will getting the squish correct combat detonation and reduce oxides of nitrogen but they also have a bearing on cam chain tension and therefore life.
...
Pete
What did you mean with the part "but they also have a bearing on cam chain tension "??
Something else...
If I can't find a color mark on the used head gasket and I measure its thickness, I can order the head gaskets with the right thickness
A bit less as 1.05 but no 0.85 I have to order 1.05 gaskets... between 0.85 and 0.65 --> 0,85 gasket; less as 0.65 -->0.65 gasket
I'm thinking to order kit B together with the extra parts, which are extra on kit C.
I don't know how long I have to wait for delevery.
And I want to make the change to roller tappets this winter, which is starting around now till +/- march.
Ad B
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Think about it. If the distance between the axis of the idler shaft and the camshaft is greater the chain will be tighter. If it is smaller the chain will be looser. The thicker the gasket the tighter the chain. Is this important in an real terms? Hard to tell but if you think about how small adjustments to a final drive chain make a huge difference to its overall tension when you are talking about a much smaller chain run the difference in distance will have a proportionally greater effect.
Pete
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Hi,
here's my Christmas present, I bought myself:
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8639/16100667841_80f1613773_z.jpg)
The content is to preserve my G12...
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7570/15915160578_8a1af0f859_z.jpg)
camshaft with rollertappets.
I had my set within a week from ordering.
My G12 is in allmost more than excellent condition...
It has to stay that way.
I have to pay this modification myself, so I can chose to do this as a precaution.
While my engine is in new condition and very clean.
I bought Kit B (in Holland €702,- , ~$575 US).
According to Moto Guzzi I have to use Kit C (€1355,- , ~$1110,- US).
I have to buy other parts like headgaskets, gaskets inlet-outlet, shims for under the valvesprings and a few other parts.
Thats for +/- €150,-.
I'm going to install this modification coming winter, so next spring my G12 will be ready for the next ?? thausends of km's.
I have to sort out which mapping I'm going to use, a visit to a power bench is on my list.
Ad B
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Well done Ad B ;-T
I think, for early A5 engine Griso like yours and mine, we also need a pair of new rocker covers which the spark plug tube is sealed differently.
new type part# 880124
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Stelvio%20Valve%20Adjust/IMG_0460.jpg)
old type part#872607
(http://www.af1racing.com/store/ProdImages/st3/872607_d.jpg)
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Phang, they got around that by machining the top of the casting on the plug tube of the cambox. You use the original cover and retain the early 'Long' plug tube.
As well as the head gaskets and the shims for the inlet valves you'll also need valve guide oil seals for the guides you need to put the shims over. It's wise to get new o-rings for the breather plates too.
Be careful of the oil dowels, both the ones between the barrel and the head and the ones between the head and the cambox. You won't know which head gaskets you'll need until you have the heads off, I have 'em all in stock so if you want I can send you a set and you can just send 'em back with replacements for the ones you use if you don't want to have the bike off the road longer than you have to.
Pete
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thanks Pete, that explained the price difference of Kit-C and also the two chewed up areas around the sealing surface :bow
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/kitc-5_zps24e155da.jpg)
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It's a pain in the arse but the 'B' kit plus the other bits you need will work out cheaper than a 'C' kit because you won't be paying for the extra gaskets.
What is splendidly annoying for me at the moment is that there are no 'C' kits in the country and they aren't expected to get here until February 15th. I was able to get the 1200 Sport I had here up and running again by using my 'C' kit that I had purchased but hadn't yet installed on my old rattler on it but that means that if mine decides to go tits I'll be up shit creek until February instead. I don't forsee mine going bad but you never know. They do have at least one 'B' kit in stock but no valve shims! I've got everything else I need to do a swap apart from the blessed shims and I forgot to measure them when I stuck them in the Sport so I don't know what to grind up as a substitute.
If Ad B has them for his old nail perhaps he could measure it and give me the dimensions?
Pete
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Hi Pete,
I'm on a holliday trip to Berlin for the next 10 days...
When I'm back home, I Will order these party as quickly as possible.
I shall give you the answers quickly after.
Ad B
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Thanks Mate. I have a feeling that I'll probably have something very close to ideal in my selector drum shim box ;D
Pete
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Hi Pete,
Yesterday I've ordered 2 inlet- and outletgaskets, 4 valve guide seals and 4 valve spring shims.
This morning, I received them.
I've measered the shims: ø 25,5 mm x ø 10,3 mm x 0,4 mm
I've ordered them at TLM in Holland, part nr GU877847
He still has 8 on stock...
http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/nl/shim-877847-moto-guzzi
Ad B
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Hi Pete,
Yesterday I've ordered 2 inlet- and outletgaskets, 4 valve guide seals and 4 valve spring shims.
This morning, I received them.
I've measered the shims: ø 25,5 mm x ø 10,3 mm x 0,4 mm
I've ordered them at TLM in Holland, part nr GU877847
He still has 8 on stock...
http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/nl/shim-877847-moto-guzzi
Ad B
Bonza! Thanks.
Pete
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Hi Pete from Arizona. 8)
Do you think the build quality of the 2015 Griso 1200 8V has improved over what you have seen and experienced previously? In today's modern times, and with all the new improved components and quality control metrics that should be in place at the Mandello factory, why are these Griso's having such issues as you have described?
Last question: In your experience, which years and model Guzzi motor, in terms of overall reliability, do you think is the best as a daily driver and for sport touring? Thanks in advance.
JJC
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(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7579/15604389093_fc39b83251_t.jpg)
oooh dear....
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What do you think was wrong with the build quality of the earlier bikes? Apart from the roller top end and a different sump they are essentially the same machine.
Pete
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JJ got to be fishing, right?
Build quality has been very good for years now.
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(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/image-2adb_4b83468f_zps2f453a89.jpg)
:pop
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Max power won't of changed but as it stands now my bike is running a Mistral Hi-Pipe, with dB killer and it is seriously silly from nothing to rev limiter.
Can you remember what I was running when I did that run or was it somebody else's bike? I can't remember?
All of my runs have been done at about 800 metres elevation on hot, dry days with temperatures in the high twenties to low thirties centigrade and very low humidity. Run the same bike in cooler, damper conditions at sea level and you'd find peak power up by probably two to four HP at the rear wheel but to be honest that is an irrelevance, nobody travels anywhere at WFO in top gear and the torque tables in the map will alter performance in each gear.
Pete
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Pete, you planning on getting the Green Meanie dynoed with that Mistral?
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JJ got to be fishing, right?
Build quality has been very good for years now.
They have improved. My 2010 Griso came with the chrome-plastic-crappy mirrors. The new mirrors are better... ;D ;D
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Pete, you planning on getting the Green Meanie dynoed with that Mistral?
Plan a trip up and I I'll tee up the Dyno. Brett is pretty accomodating, (If a bit arrogant and inflexible but he's a PC devotee.) you can see how your Arrow pipes shape up with the new map. I have to say I'm so happy with mine at the moment I really don't give a shit what the dyno sez! It'll be interesting to have results on paper though and your project needs some print-out-for-pencilnecks.
You haven't stuck a pic up here yet of your pipes. You ought to, thry are cool,as all get-out!
Pete
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Hi,
Almost 4 years ago, I had my G12 on a powerbench.
I also have a Mistral High Rise pipe like Pete. Mine is the carbon version.
We started at 92 Hp and a major dip in his torque curve.
After several runs, try outs, open BMC airfilter set up, without Db killer, we finally had an amazing 112 Hp
And a much, much better torque curve.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5534/12266067525_37f3a84fdb_z.jpg)
The original Mistral DB killer also killed more than 10 Hp...
After getting hints about making a better db killer, I made one myself:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7397/13919594095_153d8e3385_z.jpg)
My G12 runs like hell and sounds nice.
Ad B
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Plan a trip up and I I'll tee up the Dyno. Brett is pretty accomodating, (If a bit arrogant and inflexible but he's a PC devotee.) you can see how your Arrow pipes shape up with the new map. I have to say I'm so happy with mine at the moment I really don't give a shit what the dyno sez! It'll be interesting to have results on paper though and your project needs some print-out-for-pencilnecks.
You haven't stuck a pic up here yet of your pipes. You ought to, thry are cool,as all get-out!
Pete
Might do it just for grins. I'm still not happy with that midpipe. After the second remap, I now have a bit more torque right at the bottom and even more power at the top, but there's a bit of a dip in the middle. I'm going for the custom midpipe I think.
Gratuitous pic:
(http://www.griso.org/coota.jpg)
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Them is some crazy rainbow colored pipes!
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Hi,
those Arrow pipes are not as the double tubes like the original.
Defenetly not my kind of thing. I like a bit of bling, bling...
Ad B
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What? Purple ain't bling? :D
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...
Obviously we need a sarcasm emoticon. ::)
Pete
;D ;D ;D
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What? Purple ain't bling? :D
No, Beetle...
For me, it isn't bling... :-\
Sorry...