Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Daniel Kalal on December 03, 2014, 04:11:46 PM
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(http://www.dankalal.net/wildgoose/StelvioAIRvOILtemperature.jpg)
Each point represents at least 45 minutes of steady running under point conditions. For continuous running with the air temperature below 50 F (certainly, under 40 F) It might make sense to shield the oil cooler.
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Very nice data. And I don't envy you collecting those data points at below 40°F. Brrrrrr...
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Finally! It is good to see some real data comparing the air temp to oil temp on the Stelvio. I'm betting that the oil temp would be at least 10F lower in rain...maybe as much as 20F. On a recent 2500 mile trip I was surprised to find that I could rest my hand on the valve cover after a few hours of Interstate riding in 50-60F weather. This chart verifies that. The oil cooler is bringing the oil temp down too low. It's time to do some serious thinking about a thermostat for the oil circuit, at least on my NTX. Thanks Daniel.
Peter Y.
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The chart will only be complete with a long 35F degree ride in rain, and a long 110F ride in the dry of Death Valley.
When will you have that data?
~;
As expected, a pretty linear relationship. No wonder I see a lot of water in the oil in the winter. It never gets to the point that it will boil the water out of the oil.
Actually, a test with and without the oil cooler covered is needed now.
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Wayne, while the Griso oil cooler is in a different place the effects of a baffle are the same. I don't know whether you saw the 'Simply Brilliant' thread? Mark III made an easily adjustable baffle to combat the over cooling issue on his Griso. I've done extensive testing in cold and wet weather and believe me it's hard to get the oil hot enough unless tou really flog it and as soon as you return to 'Cruise' the oil temp plummets. If it's wet? Forget it, getting the oil hot enough, even if the ambient is warmish, is a not happening thing.
Pete
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So, if the oil cooler on the Griso and Stelvio is that efficent, can they be used on the ones that run in the hot and humid climates.
I only have the dreaded oil can pop up when its over 95 outside. It only started happening within the last year, never had a problem before. Strangely, it started happening after changing from 20w50 v-twin to Redline 20-60 motorcycle oil. Have changed back to 20-50, but it hasn't been that hot so haven't had the issue.
Old Head
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Oil cooler on your Breva is thermostatically controlled. Also the pushrod motors are not subject to tappet and cam damage due to overcooling.
If you are getting the oil can icon appearing it might be worth checking which type of oil pump you have as there was a bad run of trochoidal pumps but they seem to have all gone in Norges. Chances are your problem is the sender switch.
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Oil cooler on your Breva is thermostatically controlled. Also the pushrod motors are not subject to tappet and cam damage due to overcooling.
If you are getting the oil can icon appearing it might be worth checking which type of oil pump you have as there was a bad run of trochoidal pumps but they seem to have all gone in Norges. Chances are your problem is the sender switch.
Thanks, I will replace it and see what happens.
Old Head
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Hi Daniel,
At which point do you measure your oil temperature?
I have the pick up at the drain plug.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7111/13309468904_0bb3c038d7_z.jpg)
Following is the test in boiling water...
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3693/13310270514_6d4275d544_z.jpg)
So it's accurate enough...
I'm running out of time now.
I'll come back tommorow.
Ad B
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At which point do you measure your oil temperature?
It's the sump temperature using a dipstick gauge. Before using it I checked the calibration with boiling water--it's accurate. The outside air temperature is the dash reading of the Stelvio; which seems accurate--regardless; it will be the best guide for when the oil cooler should be shielded during cold weather.
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Hi,
I didn't like the a-symmetrical headers of my G12, I rebuilt my exhaust system, using Stelvio headers.
Because of that, the oil cooler lump had to move from the right side to a "normal" oil cooler the central front.
Result:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3847/14218074868_9afbbbea3d_z.jpg)
Not knowing what the result would be of moving the oil cooler, I put on a oil temperature gauge on my G12.
As you can see 2 posts above...
:pop :BEER:
I recognize the results from Daniel...
In (for us in Holland) hot summer weather, about 30 C (86 F), in a traffic jam on the highway, the oil went towards 105 C (220 F)
Riding in normal summer condition, the oil goes to the temp of 85 - 95 C (185 - 205 F).
2 weeks back, nice weather, around ~7 C (45 F) outside temp, during a 1,5 hour ride, the oil didn't get more than 75-80 C (165-175 F).
As Pete is writing, these numbers are not good conditions for my tappets...
But I think, the story is even worse....
We are measuring the oil temp in the sump.
But the oil first is going through the oil cooler before it goes up the camshaft and tappets. :o
Once up the oil will be at nearly freezing temperatures... (just kidding)
But the temperature will be a lot lower once it gets up.
Pete, will it be also that worse for roller tappets?
I think I also have to make a nice kind of baffle, to get the temp of my oil in better condition.
Pete, question: can a thermostatic switch do that job...?
Than the oil will go up by-passing the cooler.
Ad B
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Cams and tappets are fed from the high pressure circuit that doesn't pass through the cooler. Your supposition there is wrong. Doesn't alter the fact that the engine is grossly over-cooled.
Pete
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Oeps,
sorry, I thought all the oil was going through the oil hoses from the cooler to the heads... :-\
I will think about a baffle in front of the cooler or a thermostatic switch between the lines.
Also I'm going to fit a (plastic) sump protector, I have (from a Stelvio).
So wet roads and rain will influence the temperature less.
Thanks for your input, Pete.
Ad B
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I'm looking for a new sidecar tug in the next couple years, and I kinda like the Stelvio's "excessive" oil cooling...
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Very sweet looking griso Ad b, Curios if the digital gauge you have could be had in the usa? Would love to add one on my 09. Thanks Dave
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While a baffle over the oil cooler is a cheap and simple solution, it requires setting up the bike to precisely monitor oil and ambient temperatures, and the operator now has something else to monitor and adjust.
How about putting in a thermostat to bypass the oil cooler up to a pre-set oil temperature? I am not sure what aftermarket parts can be adapted to this application, but I am curious if anybody has tried this on an 8V model.
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(http://www.dankalal.net/wildgoose/StelvioAIRvOILtemperature.jpg)
Each point represents at least 45 minutes of steady running under point conditions. For continuous running with the air temperature below 50 F (certainly, under 40 F) It might make sense to shield the oil cooler.
Looks like the oil temp in this sample is running about 85 C (185 F) in ambient conditions around 40 F. Most of the oil thermostats that I have referenced open at 180 F so this actually looks like the Stelvio is reaching that temp okay in conditions pretty chilly for most riders.
If you want more than 180-185 F oil when riding at 40 F then, yes, covering the cooler looks like the best option although one of the thermostats was a 190+ F unit.
Experts say optimal temp is 180-210 and that's what the Stelvio is doing in stock form apparently.
http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/oiltemperature.htm
Having said that, an in-line thermostat valve would bring the oil temp up quicker than not having a thermostat. Sounds like, if you do ride in cold weather with a stock bike, you need to ride it a ways to allow it to come to proper temp for an adequate period of time to burn out moisture.
.
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David, I don't think the 180-210F temp range is enough to burn off moisture in the oil. You need at least 220F. The Stelvio won't get hot enough under normal riding and ambient temp much below 70F. A 190F thermostat sounds like a good idea to me, one at 200F would be even better. High quality full synthetic 10W60 can easily take those temps.
Peter Y.
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But the oil temperatures are not uniform throughout the engine. Oil will be much hotter coming off of the piston than the oil in the crankcase, for example. One study says that the instantaneous oil temp is 50 degrees F higher than the oil going into the engine. So 180-200 would get the oil plenty hot (when it is 50 degrees hotter) and keep you out of the danger zone of overheated oil.
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The places where the oil is going to get momentarily very hot are likely the oil galleries around the exhaust valves and the under piston sprays when the contact the piston. While the oil is in the galleries there is nowhere for any impurities to evaporate to. By the time it gets back into the crankcase it will of likely cooled to the point where purging itself of water will be marginal or incomplete.
Then there is the fact that even if the water does sublime off it is liable to condense out, with oil particulates, in the breather box and end up being returned to the engine via the condensate return. It has always been thus. It's the reason Tonti frames that use the spine backbone and Spineframes which also use the frame as a condensor tend to fill their frames up,with rusty mank!
Pete
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David, I don't think the 180-210F temp range is enough to burn off moisture in the oil. You need at least 220F. The Stelvio won't get hot enough under normal riding and ambient temp much below 70F. A 190F thermostat sounds like a good idea to me, one at 200F would be even better. High quality full synthetic 10W60 can easily take those temps.
Peter Y.
I think 180 degrees has always been a benchmark oil sump point to insure moisture burn off. That's why all the thermostats, e.g. the H-D versions, tend to be gauged at 180. I realize water boils at 212 but that is misleading when determining motor oil temp. As already mentioned by others, 180 in the sump is not the highest temp throughout the engine.
Many sources cite 180-200 as best. Here's another regarding airplanes engines-
http://www.reiffpreheat.com/Article-Visser3.htm
"By running at 180° during cruise, the oil should be hot enough to boil off the normal condensation in a one-hour flight."
Having seen that empirical chart, I am not so worried about too-cold oil and I have a little more confidence in the Guzzi engineers.
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SO, who is going to come up with a thermostatic fix so we can all feel good about our hotter oil?
Spuddy
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I have to ask why the factory thought it was appropriate to add 25% more cooling surface to the oil coolers on the New Stelvio versus the original. I have even heard of folks putting the bigger cooler on older bikes.
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SO, who is going to come up with a thermostatic fix so we can all feel good about our hotter oil?
Spuddy
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=73346.0
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Campfire friends, I understand the issue of peak temp near the pistons and such. That's not my concern. We have two oil pumps. One is high pressure/low volume, the other high volume/low pressure. On my Stelvio the high volume/low pressure oil goes from the pump, out the crankcase, and to that huge cooler and then to the valve covers. The oil going through the cooler is only starting out at a maximum of 180F and is then being cooled well below that. Next the oil is sent to the valve covers where it has to lube the rockers, lifters, and cams. That's where we are seeing all the mayo and where I fear for excess wear on the high cam and lifters. Remember, the 8V is not getting lube to those parts high on the head except for what comes from the cooler (Pete Roper, feel free to correct me). Daniel's chart shows the temp in the sump. I think those temps are too low. What is coming out of the cooler will be even lower. If I have explained clearly you can see why I believe we need a thermostat to bypass the cooler until oil temp gets up to about 200F. The engineers at Guzzi may well have figured all this out to a perfect solution, I don't claim to be smarter than them. I'm just recognizing some problems from the field and my experience with my Ducks, which were over cooled.
Peter Y.
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Peter, the oil for the cams, rockers etc. comes from the high pressure circuit. The low pressure circuit only supplies the cooling galleries around the exhaust valves. Even the under piston sprays are fed from the high pressure circuit.
Pete
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I noticed that the oil cooler pump, has a pressure relief valve in it. I wonder if that is just a safety thing, or if it restricted somewhere and there is higher pressures in there then we might think?
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It'll hve a PR valve because if it didn't it might burst the rad when the oil was cold.
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Seems like thermostatically controlled louvers on the oc would be a good fix. Similar to what some of the tractor trailers have in front of there radiators. How do we create such a thing? Sounds like a good winter project.
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Hi Dave
Very sweet looking griso Ad b, Curios if the digital gauge you have could be had in the usa? Would love to add one on my 09. Thanks Dave
You can buy it on E-bay in the UK:
http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Stage6-scooter-motorbike-digital-temp-gauge-aerox-runner-zip-SR-Nitro-jog-DNA-/141445379489?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item20eecd35a1
But watch it, it's not just a easy fix... not difficult, but it's not out of the box to your bike...
You must use the M14x1.25 temperature sender to make M10x1.5 on a lathe.
I couldn't find a temp sender with M10x1.5, so I had to make it myself.
Ad B
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Temp display can be done with android phone and elm327 BT adapter. It can log it too. software from https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=scantwin.scanmM5.AllinOne
http://christian.giupponi.free.fr/Android/SCANM5X.HTM
It can log all values and display in excel, or load it in logworks from Innovate.
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Considering that the temperature readings shown in the above posts are average sump temperatures, or taken from the the drain plug which is quite an exposed place for a sensor, I would say the numbers look pretty reassuring. 80° measured as that point is ok I think.
I used the app that Paul mentioned above for a lot of logging runs earlier this year, (Stelvio) and I was usually running between 95 and 102°.
The valve covers never get really hot, because I think they're well insulated, and the plastic covers are cooler anyway. But I've still never had any Mayo there.
John
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Thanks Ad b , I like the idea of a dash readable gauge . Haven't been able to find one to fit the griso. Might it be easier to tap the sump to fit the sensor? Dave
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:+=copcar i'm looking at anew 2009 stelvio but you guys scare the crap out of me :)
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Hi,
Temp display can be done with android phone and elm327 BT adapter. It can log it too. software from https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=scantwin.scanmM5.AllinOne
http://christian.giupponi.free.fr/Android/SCANM5X.HTM
It can log all values and display in excel, or load it in logworks from Innovate.
aha Paul, I didn't know that... I didn't know you could buy those parts for "normal" prices.
It sure looks nice and interesting.
I have to study.
Dave, don't destroy your sump. Go the way Paul describes.
Ad B
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Using the Android for logging purposes relies on the engine temperature sensor which screws into the RH head or barrel which is all well and good but probably doesn't accurately reflect the oil temperature.
The reason I actually prefer a dipstick thermometer is because of where it takes its reading which is slap-bang in the middle of the sump right next to the pick-up. Tapping into the sump, at any point, opens up the reading to further inaccuracy as despite there being a lot of constant movement of the oil it is always going to be cooler at the periphery of the sump and the sensor itself is going to be influenced by the temperature of the sump walls which will act as a heat sink for the sensor.
Pete
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:+=copcar i'm looking at anew 2009 stelvio but you guys scare the crap out of me :)
The 2009 is a different animal. Much smaller cooler, cam in a different location, lots of changes. Personally, I'd rather have the '12-'13-'14 NTX in spite of this thread...oh wait, I DO have one!
Peter Y.
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The 2009 is a different animal. Much smaller cooler, cam in a different location, lots of changes. Personally, I'd rather have the '12-'13-'14 NTX in spite of this thread...oh wait, I DO have one!
Peter Y.
Errr? No. All Stelvios use the 8V. All 1200-8V's are the same architecture. There have been some minor changes to certain parts, (The size of the tensioner reservoirs for example.) but other than that the engines are all pretty much of a muchness.
Pete
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OK, I thought the '09 was still using the 4V engine. If it's the 8V I am wrong. One more example of how Internet traffic can be wrong. The cooler is still much larger on the later versions.
Peter Y.
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All Stelvios are 8V's. I think the confusion comes from the factory as for a variety of models they use 8V as a descriptor and then for others they use 4V. It's very irritating as it causes exactly the confusion you're experiencing. Probably better to just call them '2VPC' for the pushrod engined bikes and '4VPC' for the Hi-Cams but that'll probably only confuse things further! ;D
Pete
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Dave, don't destroy your sump. Go the way Paul describes.
Point taken, thanks.
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Peter,
My curiosity was based on the fact that my 2010 and your 2012 both have flat tappet engines but yours has a bigger oil cooler. While mine does get a bit hot in slow moving traffic on a 90+ degree day it still seems to manage. Just wondering what the factory justification was to move to a bigger cooler.
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Who knows. If your bike is running rough in hot weather it's more to do with the fueling correction in the closed loop area of the map than the engine overheating per-se. That's pretty easily dealt with.
Pete
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Bruce,
One of the other changes between the '10's (small oil cooler) and '12's (larger oil cooler) was the addition of the second O2 sensor and the separate ECU control of the two cylinders. Maybe that entered into the decision to make the increase in cooler size, although I can't imagine the separate O2 sensor caused an increase in engine oil temperature.
Or -- it could have been something as simple as they were using the larger cooler on one of their other bikes (possibly an Aprillia) and buying in a larger quantity made it less expensive.
Who knows?
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Well my Stelvio must be an exception to the general rule displayed here.
It never runs below 100c (dipstick thermometer tested in boiling water) even in cold weather, and usually 120c if ambient temp is 15 - 25c.
Last week in 34c ambient temp after a 100k/hr freeway run of 30klms it was reading a tad over 130c - that's pretty hot me thinks.
Doesn't in any way seem to effect the bike's running tho.
Larry
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It never runs below 100c...even in cold weather...
That's curious. I can think of no reason why this would vary substantially from bike to bike (yes; crosswinds make a difference along with other variables besides just outside temperature). The chart I presented is down to 3 degrees Celsius. How cold is the air when you still see oil of 100 degrees Celsius?
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That's curious. I can think of no reason why this would vary substantially from bike to bike (yes; crosswinds make a difference along with other variables besides just outside temperature). The chart I presented is down to 3 degrees Celsius. How cold is the air when you still see oil of 100 degrees Celsius?
It doesn't get that cold here in low land Victoria Australia.
But between 10c and 15c it will get to 100c - mind you that is after a decent thrashing through the twisted bits of hilly stuff, where I like to keep the revs around the 5000rpm and above.
Below 10c it'll be around 80-90c.
But yesterday it was overcast and showery with ambient temp at 18c and it was 100c after 30klms of 100kph freeway riding in showers, and 110c coming back but no showers.
Go figure ;)
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...the decision to make the increase in cooler size,
...it could have been something as simple as they were using the larger cooler on one of their other bikes (possibly an Aprillia) and buying in a larger quantity made it less expensive.
That would be "The Guzzi Way". :D
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I inadvertently came across some posting about oil temperature on the KTM ADV website. Some poor guy had troubles with a new bike overheating and the dealer had to bleed the cooling system. Various comments indicate that the operating range observed for these bikes varied from "170'sF" to low "200's" in heavy traffic.
"15 minutes later I was out for my second test ride and the oil temp stayed in the 170s."
"The hottest I have seen my oil sitting in traffic was 214f with break in oil and 209f with Motorex Cross Power."
This seems inline with observed Stelvio temps posted earlier.
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Bump
For recent topics about engine wear.
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brakeconnect.com part number BQ187 is an adapter. Having trouble making a live link to it on this infernal iPad
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"even if the water does sublime off it " Maybe I'm the only one who didn't know definition #10 for "sublime":
verb (used without object), sublimed, subliming.
#10.
Chemistry. to volatilize from the solid state to a gas, and then condense again as a solid without passing through the liquid state
Thanks Pete!