Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rico88 on December 14, 2014, 07:46:40 PM
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So I just got the recall done at a new moto guzzi dealership. I was pleased with them, and it seems like they actually did all the work they were supposed to (which is always a plus). Anywhoo.
I noticed the engine makes a tapping sound on both heads. I don't know for sure or not if this was there before, since I am still relatively new to this bike. The noise sounds like metal hitting metal, and it persists with acceleration, after the bike has warmed up, and at freeway speeds). It is not super loud, but you can still hear it. It feels almost like something is hitting the head cover. When I put my glove on the head cover and the engine is idling, it doesn't sound as "tinky" anymore it sounds more like a muffled thud and I feel a tap tap tap tap vibration through my glove. So that's why I think the engine cover maybe what resonates the sound, and may be one of the metal pieces that is making contact with another metal piece.
My other theory is that the valves maybe trying to close too far, and the sound of that contact is most easily heard through the head cover.
Any ideas?
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Whip off a rocker cover and make sure they have snapped the tops off the adjusters. If they haven't then the tops of the adjusters bash on the rocker covers.
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I'll check that out! I am hoping it is something that simple.
;-T
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Whip off a rocker cover and make sure they have snapped the tops off the adjusters. If they haven't then the tops of the adjusters bash on the rocker covers.
That would simply wreck my day.
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That would simply wreck my day.
:D :D :D :D :D
Yeah , and where is our update Rico , if your name really is Rico :D Around here , we expect answers ;D
Dusty
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That would simply wreck my day.
Yeah, no kidding! If they did the recall, and forgot to twist off the adjusters, you wonder what else did they"forget "?
Rick
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:D :D :D :D :D
Yeah , and where is our update Rico , if your name really is Rico :D Around here , we expect answers ;D
Dusty
Thats right, Dusty, you tell Rico the way we roll around these parts! We not only want answers, but pictures too! ;D
Rick.
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Thats right, Dusty, you tell Rico the way we roll around these parts! We not only want answers, but pictures too! ;D
Rick.
:D :D Rick , on the oil/waffle thread going now , you'll notice that I have been elected a waffle providing benevolent dictator ::) ;D Or maybe that is a waffling tater head , hard to tell with this group :o :D Either way , we demand answers :BEER: and , hmm , we need a waffle icon :food
Dusty
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I just noticed a clicking sound coming off the right rocker, I need to take a look in there too
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So I just got the recall done at a new moto guzzi dealership. I was pleased with them, and it seems like they actually did all the work they were supposed to.
Almost. ;D
Did they get to it before the cam and lifters self destructed? If not, did they take a look at the oil pump for shrapnel damage? Many posts here regarding collateral damage from cam and lifter failure. You might want to ask your mechanic. Good luck.
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I bought a 03 stone a while back. before I bought it, I checked with 2 dealers to see that the recalls were done. MGNA had the cam recalls performed by a dealer in Jax FL. I bought the bike and a few months later on a long ride, I noticed a taping noise that would come and go. I did some research and pulled the valve covers to find that the recall was never done. From what I remember the original rockers were a gold color and the updated ones were silver. There is a initial vale lash adjustment on the updated set. Once the initial adjustment it set, the adjusters are snapped off.
I found out that the Jax dealer charged guzzi for the recall and just gave the bike back to the owner without even pulling the valve cover. The hydro lifter was loosing its prime when the motor got warm but luckily no damage was done.
Took the bike to Moto Nexus in Ashville NC and they took care of it. I took it on a 5,000 mile road trip a year ago with no problems..
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I found out that the Jax dealer charged guzzi for the recall and just gave the bike back to the owner without even pulling the valve cover.
Unfortunately, that's not the first time I've heard that one.. <grumbling>
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I had a similar problem with a hydro EV I bought. The recall had been claimed by a dealer but he work wasn't all done -- no inspection for internal damage, and the engine was completely ruined by the failure the recall was supoposed to address. MG said all they do is pay the chit -- they don't check to see if the service was competent or complete. They also said that once the recall paperwork has been processed for that VIN they don't care any further. MG refused to name the dealer or give me any other information about the service. If I wanted the recall done *again* I was free to pay for it. The damage caused by the cam failure went through the engine innards like a smart bomb, chewing up the oil pump and embedding shrapnel in the bearings. I had to rebuild the whole damn thing.
Having both jackal and an ev engines in my bikes I still think a sorted hydro is the superior mill. I just wish there wasn't so much grief getting there.
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All this is very unfortunate. We are waiting for a set of tools to complete this job on a bike we have in the shop now. Piaggo ponied up and is paying for this bike to get it done. Looking through the service procedure the job is not exactly a walk in the park and includes a very detailed explanation on how to clean out the block even if there is no sign of shrapnel.
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All this is very unfortunate. We are waiting for a set of tools to complete this job on a bike we have in the shop now. Piaggo ponied up and is paying for this bike to get it done. Looking through the service procedure the job is not exactly a walk in the park and includes a very detailed explanation on how to clean out the block even if there is no sign of shrapnel.
Walt? If you can't get the tools locally give me a hoy, you can borrow mine.
Pete
PS? Why would you claim for the work and then not do it? That is a huge shitfight waiting to happen! Not only is it dishonest but it is opening you up to ll sorts of accusations of sharp practice.
Pete
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PS? Why would you claim for the work and then not do it?
Unfortunately, there was a period in the US when Aprillia, I think, let any swinging dick with a few bux sell Guzzis. Didn't have to know anything about them, no training.. you get the picture, and it wasn't pretty. Turning in a claim and not doing it was pure profit, and most of them would have been totally unable to do the recall anyway. <shrug>
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Sorry for the late reaponse. It turns out they did forget to snap off the adjusters. The mechanic told me it didn't make sense to him to install a new part (the adjusters) and then break them so they could never be adjusted again. That was his rationale for not doing it. They snapped them off and the sound went away. I haven't noticed any other issues now. they said there was signs of premature wear, and they "overhauled the engine". I doing think they replaced anything that was not included in the recall kit. Since I had to provide them with new gaskets, because they weren't provided and they said they could just reuse the old ones, but I wanted them to use new ones.
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Rico: If you ever return to that dealer for any reason but to cop a free calendar, you'll hear from us.
Ralph
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Thanks guys! I have a good mechanic I trust that is not a dealer, and has a lot of experience with guzzis. I will take the bike to him for future work. (Unfortunately he wouldn't get paid to do the recall). Is there anythingin particular I should lookout for? I assumed overhauling the engine meant they fixed everything, but unfortunately my mechanical understanding is limited. Though I try to pick up what I can.
I Have about 1100 miles left until my 12k service is due. Should probably take me 3-4 weeks depending on the rain. So I'll be taking it to my mechanic then. The only other issue I noticed was a small oil leak. Though it looks like it is hopefully from the oil pan gasket, and I don't think they replaced that since they didn't ask me to buy them one. But i figured it is not bad enough yet that it can't wait till the next service. It takes about 2-3 days of sitting for any drops to appear on the ground. (I figured the bike just crys a little if I neglect her) the previous owner locked her in a garage for years, and I promised her I would do that to her again. But she may have trust issues when I ride her daily and take a sudden break due to rain..
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I assumed overhauling the engine meant they fixed everything, but unfortunately my mechanical understanding is limited.
I would assume that since they left the breakoff tabs on the adjusters, that to them, an 'overhaul' means they reset the trip meter.
They didn't 'overhaul' the motor.
Get someone you trust to look over the bike, brake fluid, pads. Grease the drive shaft splines, etc.
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So quick update. I had my mechanic look over the bike, and perform the 12k mile service. I asked him the inspect the valves ands check to see if it still had the proper clearance, to make sure their wasn't any damage from the rockers hitting the valve cover. He said that he there was no clearance and they couldn't even get a measurement. But the compression test was decent. Though the left cylinder was slightly lower than he liked. I believe the left was 115 psi and the right was 125.
They also did find magnetic metal debris in the oil. He said it looked kinda like a coppery sand. He said it was really fine, but it was magnetic. The bike does have a different filter on it, so the dealership did do an oil change when they did the service. Any ideas on if I have anything to worry about?
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If the instructions explicitly say that the adjusters need to be broken off, why would they refuse to do that? Grrr!
Before breaking off the adjusters, they should have checked the clearances! Grrrr! Is there enough room to properly set the clearances?
The engine should have been flushed of all loose metal. Grrrr!
Please tell us which dealer this is. I want to make sure I never do business with them.
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So, they said they did adjust it so there was cleance when they did the job. But they did not re check it before they cut off the tabs. I dont think they are re adjustable after the tabs were cut. Could the rockers hitting have messed up the clearance? Should they have re adjusted them after I had rode it and before the tabs were cut off?
Or would the hydraulic lifters kicking in mean there would be no clearance when he checked it? Do they have to be blead or anything to check the clearances? I'm going to talk to my mechanic later, so Im trying to get a better understanding of how it works.
so does this mean my engine does need to be flushed of metal debris? Is this sand like metal from the previous tappet?
This was done at the San jose bmw. They just became a moto guzzi dealer.
Also what should the pressure be during a compression test? I hear moto guzzi engines aren't known to be high compression performance engines.
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Yeah, check for gaskets.
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Does anyone know if there is supposed to be clearance between the rocker arm and valve stem? (I believe that's what my mechanic said there is no clearance, and that didn't seem right to him)I'm trying to understand how this works, but am having difficulty wrapping my head around how the engine works.
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I don't think an air gap is a good check for lash on the hydros. Some lifters will leak off when the engine is off and some won't. That's why you can get a little diesel clatter for a second when you first start the engine. That's normal for some engines.
You can still adjust the valves, but it's more of a PITA.
To check the lash you remove the rocker assembly, relieve the residual pressure, pull the lifter insert, replace it with a calibrated slug, adjust to the slug, pull the slug, replace the insert, replace the rocker assembly [X no. of valves). During all that, if you need to do an adjustment you can easily work the adjuster post without the screw end attached.
But I ask you -- did the dealer check the lash as I described above, or did he wiggle the adjuster with his finger and make some proclamation about it?
Anyone thinking that hydraulic valves need regular adjustments like solid ones do is ignorant of the technology and should not be trusted past holding the beer for the guy who knows.
I'm not sure you can get a fair compression reading without pumping up the lifters. They need oil pressure to seal.
My recall kit included everything but the mechanic to do the work for me -- parts, gaskets, special tools, etc. IIRC, there's a list provided with the kit telling you what all should be in there. I've seen a lot of incomplete kits sold on ebay missing parts, tools, or gaskets and still commanding several X retail $$$. I think someone tried selling some here once.
If this outfit 'overhauled' the engine, did you get your old parts back? That's the closest you'll get to 'proof of service'. Ask them specifically if they pulled the oil pump and what condition is it in? The vanes in my pump looked like wire brushes from the chewing they gave all that shrapnel.
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The recall kit I purchsed included all of the gaskets, oil filter too if I remember correctly. Not sure this dealer is playing straight with you.
Are you with a dealership and have done this recall? Or did you do it on your own outta pocket?
Do you remeber what gaskets they included? I had to buy 6 or 8 tiny o rings (I'm not exactly sure what they were for, I just remeber them being pretty small), and the two head gaskets. They also charged me $60 labor to "renew the head gaskets."
It also turns out that an exhaust leak is now occurring, and that there is an exhaust manifold seal that is leaking now. This is causing an engine ticking noise on the right side. My mechanic says he would have replaced it when he pulled the head off, if he had done the recall because this commonly happens if it is not replaced. (He is assuming they pulled the head to do the recall). They didn't mention having something that could have been replaced when they did the service. I told them that I would rather buy new gaskets out of my own pocket then for them to put it back together with the old ones. That is why I bought the other head gaskets and o rings for them, because that's all they Told me would be what they would be reusing.
Is this making sense to anyone? Would they have pulled the head to do this recall? And should they have replaced an exhaust manifold seal if they had the head pulled?
I believe I am rephrasing everything correctly, but I will make any corrections when I get a written report/summary of his findings from my mechanic.
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I don't think an air gap is a good check for lash on the hydros. Some lifters will leak off when the engine is off and some won't. That's why you can get a little diesel clatter for a second when you first start the engine. That's normal for some engines.
You can still adjust the valves, but it's more of a PITA.
To check the lash you remove the rocker assembly, relieve the residual pressure, pull the lifter insert, replace it with a calibrated slug, adjust to the slug, pull the slug, replace the insert, replace the rocker assembly [X no. of valves). During all that, if you need to do an adjustment you can easily work the adjuster post without the screw end attached.
But I ask you -- did the dealer check the lash as I described above, or did he wiggle the adjuster with his finger and make some proclamation about it?
Anyone thinking that hydraulic valves need regular adjustments like solid ones do is ignorant of the technology and should not be trusted past holding the beer for the guy who knows.
I'm not sure you can get a fair compression reading without pumping up the lifters. They need oil pressure to seal.
My recall kit included everything but the mechanic to do the work for me -- parts, gaskets, special tools, etc. IIRC, there's a list provided with the kit telling you what all should be in there. I've seen a lot of incomplete kits sold on ebay missing parts, tools, or gaskets and still commanding several X retail $$$. I think someone tried selling some here once.
If this outfit 'overhauled' the engine, did you get your old parts back? That's the closest you'll get to 'proof of service'. Ask them specifically if they pulled the oil pump and what condition is it in? The vanes in my pump looked like wire brushes from the chewing they gave all that shrapnel.
I know for a fact they did not check anything when they pulled the covers off and cut the tabs. Because I watched him take off the cover, looked inside and said he could see where it was hitting the inside of the cover, but there wasn't much damage. He didn't check any lash or anything. He tried to break off the tabs with vise grips, but couldn't do so, so he grabbed an air grinder with a cut off wheel on it and cut off the tabs.
I don't know how this is supposed to be done, so I don't know if that was proper or not.
I did not get the old parts back, but they said they have to hang onto them because recall law in California requires them to hold into any parts for x amount of years or something.
My recipt doesn't say anything about overhaul. That was just what he vibally told me.
I also do now know if they inspected the oil pump or not. Should that have been inspected and was that a requirement of the recall?
Does anyone have a link to, or a document they could email me that shows what parts the dealer gets (or should get from moto guzzi) and what work they are required to do by moto guzzi during this recall?
I haven't been able to find this information from any of my searching online, other than what I've read in this post and other post, and through word of mouth of the dealer. It'd be nice to see an official document though that I could reference and use to educate myself.
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The damage from a bad hydro cam sends metal bits into the oil and through the pump, chewing it up pretty good. What gets through the pump can embed in the main and rod bearings. Mine looked like it had been attacked by baskin robbins sprinkles and were badly grooved. I had to do a complete teardown and replace all the bearings. So yes, the oil pump inspection needs to be done. From where they were with the recall teardown, the pump is four bolts and no gaskets away, so there's no excuse at all for not pulling it and taking a look.
MG was completely uncaring and refused to tell me anything about the dealer who'd done the work, except that the dealer had submitted the paperwork for my VIN. They felt that the paperwork concluded the matter regardless of the facts.
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He tried to break off the tabs with vise grips, but couldn't do so, so he grabbed an air grinder with a cut off wheel on it and cut off the tabs.
Wow! Did he stir up the grinding bits with the oil before replacing the valve covers. Makes a cheap grinding compound for you engine to ingest. Hope he took some precautionary measures before firing up the grinder. Doesn't seem likely, though. Good luck.
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Wow! Did he stir up the grinding bits with the oil before replacing the valve covers. Makes a cheap grinding compound for you engine to ingest. Hope he took some precautionary measures before firing up the grinder. Doesn't seem likely, though. Good luck.
He did put a towel down that shouldve collected all the shavings if he pulled it out without dumping the shavings in. Which I am assuming shouldn't have been too difficult to do
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(Sigh.) The whole point of the elaborate tool kit supplied for the cam/tappet swap for the Hydro motors is that it obviates the need to remove the heads. Did whoever did the swap read the instructions? Can they read?
There are not only hard copy instructions in the kit, (At least I believe there were, I haven't done one for years and years!) but I think they are still up in PDF format on the service portal.
No, there won't be clearance with hydraulic lifters, that's the whole point of them and why they are so quiet. As for compression? Was this test carried out with the throttle held wide open or the throttle bodies removed? If not you are not dealing with anybody who can even pretend to call themselves a mechanic!
When the tappets fail they shed bits of themselves, very hard chilled cast iron, into the oil. The only part of the engine that gets unfiltered oil is the oil pump and unless the failure is caught very early the pump is almost invariably toast. If the damage is allowed to continue for any length of time the filter will clog and go into bypass and then you end up with a situation like David had where all your bearings will be trashed. Simply 'Flushing' the motor as suggested by the factory is woefully inadequate. At the very least the oil pump needs to be removed and inspected and the galleries flushed. The sump should of been removed and cleaned thoroughly and the OPRV disassembled and cleaned and the galleries flushed.
Everything about this tale shrieks of incompetence and disinterest. I strongly recommended you take your bike somewhere else before it is irredeemably broken!
Pete
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I'm not sure the parts changes can be done unless the sump is pulled. How else would you change the oil filter?
But the parts changes without at the very least cleaning the sump, pulling the pump, and blowing out the galleys is like stitching up a gunshot wound without pulling out the bullet. If a guy was smart he'd pull rod caps and take a look too, since from them and the pump he might infer something about the condition of the mains.
I'm always looking past what's right in front of me, wondering what the upstream and downstream interactions are -- causes of the problem and the other things it might affect. I HATE going back into my own work and I REALLY hate it when some other thing a couple degrees removed from the problem fails because I didn't outthink it all the way through. It amazes me that everyone doesn't think that way.
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I just had a scan through the service bulletins and it seems the Hydro Recall instructions are no longer there. No big deal but it does mean that anyone attempting it for the first time would be well advised to ask questions before diving in.
Essentially though you drop the sump, at one cylinder at TDC a compression, remove the rocker gear and pushrods and clamp,on the valve spring compression tool. Then pressurise the cylinder with compressed air to keep the valves on their seats and use the tool to remove the valve springs, caps and collets and replace them with the new ones supplied in the kit. Once this is done the cylinder can be de-pressurised and the tool removed and the rocker carrier replaced and the nuts all re-torqued. Don't forget to replace the o-rings on the long studs.
Repeat for other cylinder.
With the sump off the timing chest should be opened and the chain and sprockets removed. As there are no rockers or pushrods installed there is no need to set it up at any particular point. The 'Grabber' can then be used to pluck the lifters out of the tappets from the top before the camplate is removed and the cam withdrawn. When this is done the tappets, or the remains of them, will tumble down out of the block and onto the bench.
Oil pump should now be removed and inspected and all galleries washed out and blown through to remove crap and detritus. Sump can be cleaned and OPRV removed and cleaned out now as well. Obviously the old filter is discarded along with the old cam, tappets, lifters, springs, caps etc. if needed oil pump should be replaced.
Using the?? 'finger rod' the new tappets, coated in assembley lube to stick 'em in place, can be slid in through the front cam bearing and inserted in their guide holes. Then slather the new cam liberally with assembley lube and reinstall it along with the cam plate. The chain and sprockets can now be reinstalled and timed up and the timing chest cover replaced.
Set one side up on TDC compression and drop the 'False lifter' down into a tappet. Install pushrod and rocker and set valve clearance. Remove rocker and pushrod and use the 'Plucker' to remove the 'False lifter' and replace it with the new hydraulic lifter supplied. Repeat for second valve/rocker and then repeat the operation for both valves on the other cylinder. Finally, snap off the top parts of the adjusters and slap the rocker covers back on.
Reinstall the clean sump with a new filter and fill the engine with 10/40 oil. Spin the motor over on the starter with the plugs out for a couple of minutes to get oil through the bearings and allow the lifters to pump up.
Put plugs back in. Hit the button. Fire it up. Balance the TB's. Go ride.
Lovely!
Pete
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If you have a copy of the instructions I'd be very grateful if you could send them to me. I'll try and get them into a format that is easily downloadable and can send it to Greg Bender or someone who can pop it up on his site for future refference.
Pete
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This may be obvious but make sure they changed the exhaust header to head gaskets. Not part of the recall but when we put ours back together there was a tapping and the gaskets needed to be changed. You can use a big screwdriver as a stethoscope to help locate engine sounds.
Walt
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I hear moto guzzi engines aren't known to be high compression performance engines.
You heard wrong.
He tried to break off the tabs with vise grips, but couldn't do so, so he grabbed an air grinder with a cut off wheel on it and cut off the tabs.
Jeee sus! Run, do not walk away. The guy is absolutely clueless,and has probably trashed your engine. I hate to bear bad tidings, but that's my gut feeling.
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Vasco, Rico88: Please check your PMs.
Thank you! Looking at this, I don't think everything was done that was supposed to be done. I don't recall them mentioning anything about inspecting the oil pump (but hopefully I am wrong).
The only issues I know of right now are:
1) Oil leak on the from of the engine that appears to be coming from the front timing cover.
2) Engine noise that appears to be coming from an exhaust leak where exhaust pipe connects to the cylinder head.
3) unknown magnetic metal debris in the oil pan, (about 20 fine granules, copper-ish in color which are signs they have been exposed to high heat, and magnetic so its not aluminum).
4) Compression test from a good mechanic, that admittedly does not have a lot of experience with hydraulic lifters. But I feel has a strong understanding of mechanical mechanics (does a lot of work on ducati motorcycles), Got a reading of 115 on the left cylinder, and 130 on the right.
What I don't know is:
1) If the oil pump has been damaged, or if their is other hidden damage from this recall.
2) If/if not the valves are still adjusted properly after the engine was ridden for about 100 miles without the tabs being broken off.
Unfortunately I maxed out my credit card paying for the 12,000 Mile service so I can't afford to pay someone to do recall over again, and moto guzzi has already 'paid' for this service to be done.
If I get the oil and exhaust leaks fixed, and continue to ride the bike, it is my understanding one of two things will happen.
Either A: (optimistic) the compression test was performed wrong, the valves happened to not be affected by the fact that I was given the bike without the tabs being broken off, and the recall was done at such a low mileage (9k miles) that the oil pump has not sustained substantial damage from metal debris in the engine. The bike will Run like a dream and we live happily ever after.
Option B: (pessimistic) The valves are not adjusted properly, the Bike run's a little rough, but still runs. The oil pump is damaged but still functions for now (acts as a ticking time bomb). If the oil pump does go out, then the bike will stop pumping oil (hopefully my oil pressure light will come on), but by that time it is probably too late, my engine will seize due to no oil, and the motorcycle will become an expensive paper weight.
Does that sound accurate?
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I'm guessing the compression test was performed wrongly for starters. On any 2V big block Cali I'd be expecting to see 150-160 PSI cold cranking unless there was something wrong. I think the 'Mechanic' doesn't know that you have to have the inlet tracts open to get a proper compression reading so he isn't a mechanic, QED. You could ask him to perform a leak down test but I fear you'd just get a blank stare.
Look, there are a number of things you can do cheaply yourself that may mitigate against disaster. Firstly buy an oil filter and a couple of rocker cover gaskets and a sump gasket. I'd also suggest a timing chest gasket but let's start off with small steps Eh?
Drain the oil and discard it. Now drop the sump, (14 bolts arround the periphery and four underneath.) and drop the sump. How much frag is there in there? If the answer is 'A fair bit' then there is no way the recall has been performed correctly. Remove the filter and oil pressure relief valve, clean the valve by taking it apart and washing it in kero and rinse the sump and all its galleries thoroughly and blow out with compressed air. Install new filter. Leave the sump off for now.
Next whip off the rocker covers and have a look for debris left by the shaved ape when he took an angle grinder to the adjusters. Grab another bottle of kero and rinse the whole head area but try to minimise and prevent it going down the pushrod tunnels. Down the oil return holes in the outer edges of the heads is fine. Put a container/tray under the block to catch it as it rinses down. Now wipe around the inside of the block with a clean rag checking it regularly for particulate matter.
Now re-fit the rocker covers with new gaskets and the sump with a new gasket. Make sure all the old gaskets are removed from BOTH mating surfaces and the oil ways in the gaskets align with the castings in the sump. Double check the filter is tight and re-install the sump.
Fill with 3.5 litres of 10/40 oil, spin it up with the plugs out for a minute to get the oil circulating and the lifters pumped up. Pray a lot!
At least when you have done this you can be pretty certain you've got most of the crap out of the motor. The fact you are finding detritus on the plug is worrying but at least it's ferrous. The copper colour had me worried that it might be bits of big end shell but these are trimetal and non magnetic.
What it won't tell you is the state of your oil pump which may be seriously compromised, a problem made worse by the requirement for a light oil in the hydro motors. While the rocker covers are off take a look at the valve spring retainer caps too. Are they bright, shiny, aluminium? Or are they a dull brown steel? If the latter it is another sign the recall has not been performed correctly as new caps and springs were specified, the original caps being steel and the recall replacements being alluminium, presumably to minimise reciprocating weight in the valve train
Pete
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And, to keep the oil filter from rotating and losing oil pressure over time, do the usual preventive and place a hose clamp around it. Details on this forum.
Also, I note that both Lannis and Pete Roper are suggesting a refill with 10/40 oil. Factory bulletin and Dave Richardson both suggest 5/40 full synthetic for the hydros. Have I missed something? (Wouldn't be the first time.)
3.5 Liters of oil? The factory supplement for the '03 and later hydros says "3 liters". If 3.5 is considered safe, I'll use that amount, but I want to hear clearly that I won't get a mess of blow-by if I do that.
Ralph
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If the filter has been replaced you can use 3.5 litres and it still won't be at the full mark on the stick usually. The important thing is to have it below the 'Full' mark. Other than that the quantity doesn't really matter a lot, it'll find its own level.
As for the viscosity? 5/40? 10/40? I'm not going to die in a ditch over it.
Pete
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Also, I note that both Lannis and Pete Roper are suggesting a refill with 10/40 oil. Factory bulletin and Dave Richardson both suggest 5/40 full synthetic for the hydros. Have I missed something? (Wouldn't be the first time.)
Ralph
OI! I invoke the SODDI defense, your honor. (Some Other Dude Done It!) I haven't even posted on this thread, and if I did, I wouldn't be the one anyone would want to see adding my two cents worth to Roper's recommendations on oil viscosity.
"I ain't even got a garage, you can call home and ask my wife!"
Lannis
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Thank you, Pete. I'll keep the oil below the "Full" mark and not focus on just how much went into the sump.
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So unfortunately I don't really have a place to work on my bike. One of the reasons why I take it to someone else to work on. (that, and last time I tried to work on my jeep, I ended up causing more damage than I fixed..)
But thinking about it. Shouldn't any metal that was left behind have already worked its way down to the sump? I have put almost 3k miles on it since the 'recall.' I am hoping, that the metal at the bottom, was just all that was left behind from before the recall. Shouldn't the mesh filter and oil filter stop the rest of the metal? (though I guess by the time it made its way down there it had already gone through the oil pump?)
If the metal is all gone from the engine, (I did have the sump cleaned and blown out, and the heads were cleaned as well) how big of a job would it be to have someone replace the oil pump? just looking at the recall work, it looks like it is one of the last things before piecing the bike back together, which leads me to believe, the whole front end would pretty much have to be taken apart to get to it. Is that relatively accurate?
As for the oil. Right now the bike has golden spectro 20w/50 oil in it. I keep reading and hearing different things on the subject for oil on the bike. Though if lannis and roper are suggesting 10/40 my inclination would be to use what they suggest.
Will having the spectro 20w50 cause problems for the hydro? Should I replace it with 10/40? and If so, what 10/40 do you guys use?
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mobil-1-10W-40-Full-Synthetic-Motorcycle-Oil-1qt/16767829
Would that be what I would want?
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OI! I invoke the SODDI defense, your honor. (Some Other Dude Done It!) I haven't even posted on this thread, and if I did, I wouldn't be the one anyone would want to see adding my two cents worth to Roper's recommendations on oil viscosity.
"I ain't even got a garage, you can call home and ask my wife!"
Lannis
You are correct, Lannis. My error and my apologies to you. My mind is slipping. Were I still riding flat track I would have a crew member at the end of each straightaway holding a large sign, "98D Turn LEFT". It's enough to remember which side of the Stones' handlebar has the horn button and which has the starter button.
Ralph
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The owners manual for my 04 EVT Hydro calls for 5W40 full synthectic.
I run that weight in the spring/fall and a 5W50 full synthetic in the hotter months. I have over 100,000 miles on the bike and it seems to run better - no oil usage, smoother, it just 'feels' better with the 5W50 in it. The recall was done on my bike before the original owner took delivery.
Good luck.
G
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Not to convert this into an oil thread, but in my hydro EV, I use Shell Rotella T6 full syn 5W-40. It's a diesel-spec oil, which means it is high in zinc and phosphorous (i.e., good for motorcycle engines).
Not that it matters for a Guzzi, but it also works well for wet clutches. In fact, the Rotella T4 specs work across the board for all four of our motorcycles, which simplifies my maintenance routine, as I only have to stock one engine oil.
Another bonus it that it's readily available, and usually on sale or with rebates it can be had for around $21 per gallon.
http://www.shell.com/rotella/products/t6.html
From Moto Guzzi Technical Note No. 010-2006, dated 28-07-2006:
1100 SERIES California - Hydraulic Tappets
Engine Oil: RACING 4T 5W-40
Oil to be compulsorily used for a correct operation of hydraulic tappets
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Rico.
First of all, my condolences that you are caught in this mess. I had similar frustration when my engine failed after the 1st recall and I had to go out of state to find a dealer to do the final recall. I also lack confidence in my mechanical abilities, so tearing the whole engine apart is pretty daunting.
That being said, I still think you need to mitigate the chances that your engine will be trashed. The steps that Pete recommended in « Reply #41 on: February 28, 2015, 07:28:58 PM » of this thread, would give you a fair chance at avoiding disaster. The only change I would make is 5w40 for the oil. That's what the manual specifies, so that's what I would use.
Good luck. Once you get through this, you'll love the bike.
Thanks! I do really love the bike, which is why I am so concerned about fixing anything I can before it turns into a problem. I will take it to a mechanic and see if they can clean that for me hopefully without charging me an arm and a leg. Then Hopefully I will be done with this mess, and can ride it without worry.
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"I ain't even got a garage, you can call home and ask my wife!"
Lannis
But I bet you & Charlie woulda "had 'em all out there steppin and fetchin"!
Howard
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Not to convert this into an oil thread, but in my hydro EV, I use Shell Rotella T4 full syn 5W-40. It's a diesel-spec oil, which means it is high in zinc and phosphorous (i.e., good for motorcycle engines).
Not that it matters for a Guzzi, but it also works well for wet clutches. In fact, the Rotella T4 specs work across the board for all four of our motorcycles, which simplifies my maintenance routine, as I only have to stock one engine oil.
Another bonus it that it's readily available, and usually on sale or with rebates it can be had for around $21 per gallon.
http://www.shell.com/rotella/products/t6.html
From Moto Guzzi Technical Note No. 010-2006, dated 28-07-2006:
1100 SERIES California - Hydraulic Tappets
Engine Oil: RACING 4T 5W-40
Oil to be compulsorily used for a correct operation of hydraulic tappets
it was the zinc in the spectro oil that is why my mechanic recommended that oil over the rockoil 10w60 the dealer put in.
My question about the racing t4 5w-40 you are recommending. The link you shared says "t6", and on their products website I don't see a "t4". Is there a difference between "t4" and "t6"?
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Sorry, I meant Rotella T6. I am unaware of any difference. Fixed it.
I apologize for the confusion.
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Also, can someone tell me what would happen if my oil pump stopped working, and How I would know? Would the oil light come on, implying the engine is not getting oil, and the engine seize up or something? Also, how long can I expect an oil pump to last under normal conditions? if I want to keep this bike for 150k miles or more (Is that a reasonable expectation?), will I expect to change the oil pump? And if so, will it want to be changed after 60k miles or something? or would it only be replaced only after it fails?
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what would happen if my oil pump stopped working, and How I would know?
There would be a red light followed shortly by the dreaded "dogga dogga" noise. ;D
Also, how long can I expect an oil pump to last under normal conditions?
forever
if I want to keep this bike for 150k miles or more (Is that a reasonable expectation?), will I expect to change the oil pump?
Not normally.
or would it only be replaced only after it fails?
If it fails, you'll be replacing more than the oil pump. It's the heart of the engine, if you will. If it dies, so will the engine.
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So if it has been slightly damaged due to before the metal from the tappets, but still works fine now and all the metal has been cleaned out (and I re-clean the engine to ensure of that). Then should the pump still last forever? or can I expect the pump to now wear out slowly? like cracks in a rock that allow water to get in and freeze and melt, slowly increasing the crack and breaking the rock apart if you will. (not an exact analogy, but I am going for that kind of concept.)
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Well , replace it before it fails . The engine won't last long if it quits .
Dusty
Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .
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It depends on what damage (if any) is inside. Mine had the bearings chewed up. If yours are damaged yes, the pump is going to fail. But there's nothing to gain by talking about it -- you need to look.
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The way the twin-gear pump works is that as the gears spin oil is carried around the outside of the gears in the 'Pockets' between the teeth. For this to work there has to be very tight clearances between both the outside of the gear teeth and the pump housing and also the sides of the gears and the face of the crankcase they run against and the face of the pump.
If great chunks of tappet have gone through the pump and gouged any of the faces then the pum's action will be compromised. The lower viscosity of the oil used in the hydros just makes matters worse.
If the pump's ability is compromised enough there will be insufficient pressure at the bearings and they will fail and seize. The first to go are usually the big ends, closely followed by the rear and then front main. Almost invariably the crank will be trashed too.
You need to inspect the pump.
Pete
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Alright. Thank you everyone for all your responses! I will bite the bullet, and pay someone to clean it as Pete described. While they are at it, I will have them replace the oil pump, since I will already have all the labor paid for if I am having them inspect it, so I might as well just pay for the part too and have the extra piece of mind. And I will have them replace the 20w50 spectro with shell rotella t6 5w-50.
Unless anyone sees any problems with this I think I will soon be finally done with it all.
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The flip side is that a new pump is expensive. I wouldn't replace it just because I was in there. I'd need a reason. If the mechanic inspects it and says it's good, I'd keep it. As has been said, an undamaged pump should outlast the rest of the engine. However, I'd not bat an eye to replace it if the mechanic said so.
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Ok, So I replaced the spectro oil 20w-50 with rotella 5w-40. I put in 3 Liters, But didn't drop the sump. I just heated up the bike and drained it from the drain plug. It looks like the oil is just above the full line. But you guys said to keep it below the full line. What happens if there is too much oil in there?
Also I am planning on having the oil pump inspected, I just wanted to make sure I am not driving around on the wrong oil for longer than I have to.
When I drained the oil (its been in there for about 130 miles. I noticed it to have a milky white substance in it. As it was draining there were some signs of milky white streaks, but overall it looked like coffee with a little cream in it..
Would this have anything to do with the recall or putting in the wrong oil? could this also be from the leaking exhaust gaskets that I just had replaced during this 130 miles?
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also I had a pressure test performed correctly which showed 150 psi on both sides, and a leak down of 6 percent on the left, and 9 percent on the right, if that helps any.
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Dropping the sump for a looksee was rather the whole point. The crap, if there is any in there, and the milky substance which is probably mayonaise from water in the oil, won't just drain out.
Look, I'm really sorry that you're having these problems but there are no short cuts. It has to be done right otherwise you might as well not bother.
Pete
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If you have a copy of the instructions I'd be very grateful if you could send them to me. I'll try and get them into a format that is easily downloadable and can send it to Greg Bender or someone who can pop it up on his site for future refference.
Pete
I have a hard copy which I could scan and convert to pdf. There's 53 pages, so might take a little while.
Yell if anyone wants me to do this.
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Dropping the sump for a looksee was rather the whole point. The crap, if there is any in there, and the milky substance which is probably mayonaise from water in the oil, won't just drain out.
Look, I'm really sorry that you're having these problems but there are no short cuts. It has to be done right otherwise you might as well not bother.
Pete
So where would the water have come from is my question. I was just trying to change the oil to the proper oil so I could ride it to the shop confidently. I thought the oil was going to be reused.
If I tow it to a shop, get the sump dropped, everything cleaned, and the oil pump inspected. Does that address the how the water was getting in?
The only time I've seen oil with the milky substance before is in my jeep when the radiator went out and I blew a head, I had to get the head rebuilt and it cost me around $2k. I'm assuming that's not what is going on here, since there is no obvious signs of trouble other than the oil color. With my jeep it was overheating and running rough
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One of the major by-products of combustion is water. There is always some blow-by past the rings so you get moisture in the cases. If you only do short trips or ride slowly in cold weather the moisture won't get expelled through the breather system and will settle out on the inside of the motor as it cools. Moisture from the atmosphere will also be drawn into the engine from outside as the engine cools down after a run and the gasses inside contract.
You can get to the oil pump easily enough without taking the sump off, it lives in the timing chest but since the whole point is to clean out any debris AND inspect the pump both sump and timing chest cover need to come off.
With your compression test figures? They still strike me as a tad low but if they are even they it's probably all good.
Pete
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If you have a copy of the instructions I'd be very grateful if you could send them to me. I'll try and get them into a format that is easily downloadable and can send it to Greg Bender or someone who can pop it up on his site for future refference.
Pete
I have those Pete, printed out on paper and courtesy of MPH. I'll scan them and send them over in the next day or two
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I've already got them in PDF format from another forum member. I'm going to ask Greg Bender if he'd be kind enough to host them on 'Thisoldtractor'
Pete
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OK
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Thanks everyone. I got everything re-cleaned, put new oil in Rotella T6. Got the pump inspected and it is said to be fine and have no signs of damage. The oil leak is fixed, and the exhaust leak is fixed, and the engine seems to ride Great! I Rode it today and was pretty Happy!.. Atleast until I got off of work and went out to find my front tire is now flat and wont hold air... But I am going to start a new thread on that one if anyone wants to chime in..
Sometimes you just have love-hate relationships... I love her even though she hates me.. Hopefully she will stop putting up a fight soon and just let me ride her like she is meant to be ridden..
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;-T
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Good grief. It's a rescue. She's not hating, she's just having a little hissy fit on account of the abuse. You've looked upskirt now and know you can trust her, and She'll come to terms with you as her benevolent master. Once you've got an understanding, it will be all right.
I've owned my favorite Guzzi since '78 and we still go 'round sometimes.