Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: steven c on January 05, 2015, 11:15:06 AM
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Interesting, just passing it on.
http://www.odd-bike.com/2015/01/millepercento-moto-guzzis-filling-void.html
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And a $40,000 Guzzi is the answer?
Feels like a journalists Troll.
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Guzzi has not lost its way, its been stuck on the road since the Daytona. The only bike with additional value in their current line is the griso.
Is this the same firm that built top technology racers for decades up till the 50's?
It's a shame that the new heads described in the article make the workshops guzzis twice as expensive.
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No thanks, I'll watch from a safe distance as these obsessives create the monster machines for outrageous prices that will be actually purchased by about six dilettantes worldwide. If you think you need more than 60 hp in a bike that you are going to ride on real streets, you need to stop smoking that stuff and sober up.
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Thanks, that was interesting! Inseveral ways.......
I'd like to remind the author of the article though, that it doesn't matter if Guzzi makes even more exciting bikes. Without a vastly improved sales organisation all efforts on the design and construction side will come to nothing.
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As long as Guzzi has a step-mother, wicked or not, she will never even get a look at the glass slipper. :'(
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My hope is that Guzzi is working on a new mill for a new series of sport bikes; both naked and faired and will release it when ready. With all the money and resources needed to do something really new, its no surprise that they would take their time. They have updated the small block, replaced the tonti frame, and created an adv bike. I know they have Aprilia as a sport bike brand but it seems unlikely they would let Guzzi go without any sport offerings so it seems that would be next on the drawing board and I do expect whatever they come up with will be quite different from any past sport offerings. I hope I'm right.
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Now if they would just supply a few more dealers.
GliderJohn
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My hope is that Guzzi is working on a new mill for a new series of sport bikes; both naked and faired and will release it when ready. With all the money and resources needed to do something really new, its no surprise that they would take their time. They have updated the small block, replaced the tonti frame, and created an adv bike. I know they have Aprilia as a sport bike brand but it seems unlikely they would let Guzzi go without any sport offerings so it seems that would be next on the drawing board and I do expect whatever they come up with will be quite different from any past sport offerings. I hope I'm right.
Something really new? I bet against that every time with Guzzi. I have one word; Harley. What do they do that's so cutting edge? New power plants per se? Let everyone else compete at the top hp market and keep on doing what you're doing seems to work just fine. In fact, it separates you from the others in the end. Is Harley unique? You bet they are and getting more so every day. For Guzzi to get back to their racing days they'd have to completely reinvent themselves and prove to the world they are racers. It's simply been too long since they're last race. They are essentially an unknown company to most, but pretty unique when people find out about them. Unique in an old fresh way of air-cooled V-twins. They won't be doing anything unpredictable anytime soon. Still waiting for the re-fresh of the sb like they did with the bb!!!!!!!
Too much $$ for these MP bikes but cool to see what's possible with this lump.
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The future? Dealers on Wheels! ;D
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/glassbikebus_zps100caf86.jpg)
Make it sound like an Ice Cream truck and get em while they are young!
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My hope is that Guzzi is working on a new mill for a new series of sport bikes; both naked and faired and will release it when ready. With all the money and resources needed to do something really new, its no surprise that they would take their time. They have updated the small block, replaced the tonti frame, and created an adv bike. I know they have Aprilia as a sport bike brand but it seems unlikely they would let Guzzi go without any sport offerings so it seems that would be next on the drawing board and I do expect whatever they come up with will be quite different from any past sport offerings. I hope I'm right.
Piaggio have owned Guzzi for almost eleven years.
In that time they have killed the V11 Sport / LeMans line and killed the MGS-01, but they have not released anything as sporting to replace them.
No, the mile-long Griso doesn't count. It's a standard.
The spine-frame bikes were the last link to the Guzzi racing heritage. Piaggio broke that chain and it does not look like they care to fix it.
While Piaggio/Guzzi do make nice bikes, they don't currently have anything available in the dealership that interests me.
Sucks, too, as I really love the marque.
If they'd ever do something about the engine in the small block, or come out with a worthy successor to the V11 line, I'd be more motivated. For now, I will just ride my Sport 1100 and enjoy its link to Guzzi's former glory.
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It's clear that MG is not going factory racing in the forceable future. They do however have a void in their line up, that of a sporting bike, they know this. Word last year was they are well along on a new power plant with some level of liquid cooling, that I feel confident we will see my the big EU shows of 2015. You may recall we were told we would see it this year, but it was held back, kind of like the Cal 1400 was held back until they felt they got it right.
The hole needs filling, and I can't wait to see what shows up this year to do it! 8)
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My guess is they will eventually, when the economy is stronger, launch a new 'Sporting' bike. I also expect that most of the people clamouring for them to do so will stay away from it in droves!
Pete
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When I said something new, I didn't intend it to mean anything in regards to racing or even being competitive performance wise, with the established superbike offerings. Racing is a giant money suck and the Guzzi mounted V-twin and shaft drive (assuming those things remain) are not going to be competitive with high performance machines from any of the major players. Aprilia fills that space for Piaggio.
What they could do is something similar to a millipercento mill, with 120HP or so, put it in a completely new frame and give it some advanced electronics like multiple fuel maps, traction control, suspension settings, and some of the other goodies that Ducati and others already have. And do all of it without having to charge a kings ransom for it. Don't make it so sporty, that you can't spend more than a couple hours on it.
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Now if they would just supply a few more dealers.
I don't think it's the number of dealers, it's the quality of them. Chicagoland has (had?) three Guzzi dealers: Fox Valley Harley, Vespa Downers Grove, and Rose Farm Classics. None are more than 30 miles away if you live in the area.
But if you go into the first two places and ask about Moto Guzzi motorcycles, they look at you funny and steer you toward a Harley or a scooter. On the other hand, neither of those dealers is great at customer service anyway. It would be interesting to see the results if a top-notch dealer, like MCC in Villa Park or Heritage Harley in Lisle, decided to sell Guzzi.
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Dealers are always a spark! There is none better than Rosefarm Classics, however, it is not for everyone. I have been to Wind City Triumph, and depending on the day and who was working the floor, there excitment for Guzzi varied wildley.
But to the point, great dealers are everything to brand like Guzzi. Slowly Piaggio seems to be learning this, I hope it keeps going in the right direction.
Now what Chicago land needs it a kick but Aprillia shop???
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He lost me after the first few paragraphs. Piaggio has simply paid the bills, but done very little to reinvigorate the brand and dealer network, or better yet, what network! In all honesty, I love my Breva 750 but, like many, I keep looking at newer or different models. I stopped checking out the Guzzi site a long time ago, same old bikes, with few exceptions or a couple of modifications, ho hum! I would love a smaller adventure Tourer but not the Stelvio, I have no interest in a 600+ pound behemoth. I bet you can take a photo of the model line up from 4 years ago and hold it next to the current line up and ask someone who doesn't know MG to pick the most up to date and they would be hard pressed....
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I'd guess Piaggio must realise that there's not really any point in branding their sporty bikes Aprilia only - as far as I know they don't sell any Aprilias!
Travelling in Europe I see few Guzzis, but almost no Aprilias at all. This is very strikingly in Italy itself.
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I don't know... I ride my Stelvio and think its perfect for an every day bike.
105 HP is enough on the street IMHO.
It handles and brakes great.
I haven't ridden a Norge but I assume it does the same thing.
The Griso is a great bike..I really like that one.
My point is: What is the target audience of MG? Middle aged? It seems so in general. Didn't Aprilia go for broke when they purchased MG back in mid 2000's and that technology is in the current line up? My point is: pumping out a leader in sport bikes.. isn't going to happen. And why would it? Piaggo has the Aprilia wing for that.
I believe in general their target audience is middle aged.
So maybe the question is: do they make another sporty bike.. well I guess you mean something a little more harder edged towards the sporting chassis side of things.
If you are not racing the bike, and you're riding it in the street.. I guess maybe you want something a little lighter? Bundled up like a pretzel? Or more like a reboot of the V11 series?
That might fly...
That's my 2 cents. I think its all about $ and cents right now..
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Money and commitment is what it would take to increase Guzzi sales. The factory would have to be able to build more and dealer structure would have to be there to sell them. Guzzi is slowly working through the dealer network and will no doubt end up with fewer dealers as time moves on. Dealers need to have selection and commitment. A demo truck to show up at the major rally's would be nice. I am not worried about the race bike thing. Aprillia has that covered and if your market demands a dealer for ultra performing street bike a Guzzi dealer could consider just carrying both lines.
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Piaggio has simply paid the bills, but done very little to reinvigorate the brand
Well, that's not exactly right. Guzzi was on the verge of demise with its failed hydraulic lifter Californias in 2003/2004 when Piaggio took the reins.
From that point forward it's been a steady upward trend for the motorcycle line, and for the factory in Mandello. Piaggio dumped tens of millions of Euros into the factory in Mandello, and into new product development.
In 2005/2006, we got the California Vintage, Breva 1100, Griso 1100, Norge. Then came the Stelvio 1200, the Griso 8v, the Norge 8v. Not to mention the 2009 V7 Classic line that totally reinvigorated the small blocks. Then the Stelvio NTX and the upgraded 750 engine.
Actually, Piaggio have done a lot for the brand. The only thing they haven't done is provide a successor to the spine frame bikes. They very unfortunately did kill the MGS-01 project, which could've been developed with the new engines. That's really the only bad thing I can say about them.
Had Piaggio not taken on Aprila/Guzzi in 2004, both brands may well have gone the way of Laverda and the other great Italian marques...
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Didn't Aprilia go for broke when they purchased MG back in mid 2000's and that technology is in the current line up?
Not exactly. Aprilia took over Guzzi in 1999. What really hurt Aprilia was what hurt other scooter makers in Italy: Mandatory helmet laws and changing demographics put a major ding in the huge Italian scooter market. Aprilia couldn't take it. Piaggio adapted and was able to buy their chief competitor.
I am not worried about the race bike thing. Aprillia has that covered and if your market demands a dealer for ultra performing street bike a Guzzi dealer could consider just carrying both lines.
I don't care about a racebike, either, but I would like a sporting Guzzi. Aprilia's bikes do not, and have never appealed to me. I would never buy one. Ducati would be my second choice behind a Moto Guzzi. Guzzi really should have a successor to the Daytona/Sport 1100/V11 Sport/MGS-01 in thier lineup.
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Guzzi's heritage has been sensible engineering to the extent of eccentricity, not ultimate sporting street machines.
All the V7 Sports, LeMans etc models were sport bikes improvised from the police or touring machines. The exotic leading edge stuff was all for GP racing.
The beauty of the brand has been just how well they performed given the starting point. Frankly the engineering (the REAL engineering) of the V7 big block was way ahead of the Ducati bevelheads.
Millepercento's stuff is neat and all, but that is not Guzzi. Just building on what Guzzi does.
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Something really new? I bet against that every time with Guzzi. I have one word; Harley. What do they do that's so cutting edge? New power plants per se? Let everyone else compete at the top hp market and keep on doing what you're doing seems to work just fine. In fact, it separates you from the others in the end. Is Harley unique? You bet they are and getting more so every day. For Guzzi to get back to their racing days they'd have to completely reinvent themselves and prove to the world they are racers. It's simply been too long since they're last race. They are essentially an unknown company to most, but pretty unique when people find out about them. Unique in an old fresh way of air-cooled V-twins. They won't be doing anything unpredictable anytime soon. Still waiting for the re-fresh of the sb like they did with the bb!!!!!!!
Too much $$ for these MP bikes but cool to see what's possible with this lump.
Nailed it................ me too machines are just a total yawner..... as far as I'm concerned I hope they can continue marching to their own for eternity.
They are one of the very few that are left out there............ all you have to do is go for demo rides of other manufacturers and your gonna have a whole new appreciation for our good old Guzzis ( Hard pressed to tell the difference between a Honda and a BMW these days , seriously don't take my word for it ).......... the only thing they could have improved on as far as feel goes on the Cali is loose that ride by wire stuff.
OK.......... now I'm monologuing..... ;D
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All the V7 Sports, LeMans etc models were sport bikes improvised from the police or touring machines. The exotic leading edge stuff was all for GP racing.
The V7 Sport appeared in 1971 with a purpose-built sporting frame, the "Tonti Frame", specifically to address sporting shortcomings of the Loop Frames.
New frame, suspension and upgraded engine. The V7 Sport was not improvised from police or touring machines.
Actually, the later 850T and following standard/touring bikes built on the Tonti frame were police and touring machines improvised from a sportsbike.
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I think what also is important is the volume of bikes they put out and their manufacturing capacity.
It doesn't seem they can work on the volume/reduced cost model at their current plant.
So their target audience needs to have cash, that takes you out of the young racer boy market in general.
Although to my surprise Ducati seems to have that working.. their monster series seems to have did a lot for them.
Although I love Ducati's (well their GT1000 was a great bike and really the only one I would consider), I just can't past the perception of the horror story of their valve train and timing belts... Then I hear stories of folks who actually put the miles on them (like having a Multistrada) and when the motor needs rebuilt.. now you are in a pickle.. Pricey rebuild? Sell it for next to nothing for the fear of the pricey rebuild for the potential purchaser...
Anyways.. I think they are actually in a pretty good spot right now.
Their target audience has money, they don't live way up in the high cost R&D market (Sport bike genre), they get to play around with a design/build motorcycle that has a small but pretty loyal following... Seems pretty good to me.
I personally think the brand is a jewel for the right person.
Sounds like Harley (other than the small volume) doesn't it?
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Many of you are more enthusiastic about MG's than I am. But I like the mechanical presence...once the junk is stripped away ;D Way back I read a bike comparison test in Cycle, and most likely Cook Neilson said the Guzzi V7 was like a time release drug compared to the Meth bikes of the time, Ducati etc...
Nothing has changed since 1973 except all the other bikes have advanced far more than Guzzi...In my opinion...
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Somebody brings up this tired subject every year or so and all the responses are the same. :beat_horse
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Oh I know the history, I bought a V7 Sport new. Right next to the Eldorado on the showroom floor.
But it was an adaptation of the basic engine to sporting use. The transmission, bevel drive et al all were available on the Eldorado.
Lino Tonti's frames all looked sort of like the Sport's-straight tubes, basic parallelogram shape. He just did a great adaptation, just like Wittner did to get his bikes around a track more quickly.
I can't think of any pure sporting bike back then, developed that way from the start, they all seem to have come from basic existing designs except for MV fours. Unless you count Ducati's GT750 as a development of the 500 GP bike.
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Somebody brings up this tired subject every year or so and all the responses are the same. :beat_horse
Yeah, but people seem to really enjoy discussing it, judging by the thread responses. So may it isn't so tired?
Lannis
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My guess is they will eventually, when the economy is stronger, launch a new 'Sporting' bike. I also expect that most of the people clamouring for them to do so will stay away from it in droves!
Pete
Boy, I agree with that! lol
Only thing is that some folks not even considering a Guzzi may be drawn into the fold. So much of the current ownership base for Guzzi are not the people to buy their new bikes.
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Why is all of that plastic on the Millepercento bike?
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Why is all of that plastic on the Millepercento bike?
It's there to channel the air to the under seat mounted radiator. ::) Which brings me to mind an episode of 'Chopper build offs' where the builder made the seat pan a 'muffler'. He wound up tossing the seat into a ditch to put the fire out.
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Guzzi makes "sport" bike:
Guzzi followers: "I wish they did this or that" (usual Lemans series re-hashing)... never consider purchase.
Non-Guzzi riders: "They call that their sport bike?" (too heavy, too little hp, all the usual panning)
Guzzi loses
How about a retro round-fin with carbs like the CX? :P
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I do have to say, when your business is in the crapper, you make sure that you have a solid base product that lots of people are buying and enjoying before you go out and make something crazy. Otherwise you end up like Motus making their stupid overpriced V4 that no one is going to buy no matter how good it is unless they can slash the price in half. I think it's a testament to MG that there are NEVER any v7 bikes for sale on craigslist up here in the seattle area. I don't know how many dave sells, but there are a lot more brevas, norges and grisos up for sale on the second hand market.
With a solid business, which is where they are right now, Guzzi can afford to innovate. In fact, they can't afford NOT to. They need a tour-de-force engine redesign that will at least show that they are still relevant, something that captures people's imagination. Sure Ducati makes the Panigale and a bunch of other hyperbike pornography, but the Monster is really the bread winner for the brand. Along the same lines, it makes sense that they would make sure the V7 line is as good as it can get, and make sure that it's constantly evolving and improviing, before they go and make something outrageous. But they DO have to make something outrageous. Not power-wise, unless they abandon the transverse V-twin or find a way to make it shed 100 pounds, but yes in the styling and looks department.
In Miguel Galluzi's own words: "The Guzzi crowd is extremely conservative, but if we only concentrate on those, we are going to lose eventually. So these bikes are looking into the future." This is similar to the balance sought with earlier Ducati designs, but, "the advantage Guzzi has versus Ducati is that Ducati makes sportsbikes, Guzzi can do anything it wants because they’ve been doing it a long time and on all sorts of bikes. We are not in a box, we can do anything we want as long as we are able to make it."
At least the days of the horsepower wars seem to be over, Kawasaki's idiotic H2 attempt to rekindle the flames non-withstanding.
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A long time ago a friend much smarter than me, told me that no matter how good the product is, if you are not constantly marketing you are slowly going out of business. I don't want to be riding the same bike everyone else is, but when riding all over my state, Florida, for over 3 years and i have only seen one other Guzzi on the road, then that speaks volumes about Piaggio's commitment, or lack of. Additionally the local bike shop dropped the Piaggio line several years ago because of a horrendous experience with them, and I have heard the same from other ex-dealers. Just sayin.....
I certainly understand that without Piaggio MG may not be around, but their commitment to growing the dealer network and brand is questionable in my mind.
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Honda sells 87% of its motorcycles in Asia, mostly scooters at 125cc or less. Guzzi survival is likely not about selling to us few remaining old guys in the western hemisphere, but the huge numbers of young people in high-traffic cities in Thailand and China.
Go back its horizontal single that was Guzzi's bread and butter for almost 50 years! Ie, a scooter that happens to be a motorcycle.
PS sorry, had to fix the "it's" in the subject line, that was bugging me.
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Honda sells 87% of its motorcycles in Asia, mostly scooters at 125cc or less. Guzzi survival is likely not about selling to us few remaining old guys in the western hemisphere, but the huge numbers of young people in high-traffic cities in Thailand and China.
Go back its horizontal single that was Guzzi's bread and butter for almost 50 years! Ie, a scooter that happens to be a motorcycle
A Nuovo-Nuovo Falcone ---now that would be interesting. Something in a 375cc (1/2 a V7) horizontal single! Perfect for around town.
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What we need is a well built 700=800 cc sloper single with all the inherent ease of riding without a lot of plastic body shell. The engine should be prominent, well displayed and artistically finished. A real pussycat to ride to or around town, panther like in its grace. ;D ;D ;D
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What we need is a well built 700=800 cc sloper single with all the inherent ease of riding without a lot of plastic body shell. The engine should be prominent, well displayed and artistically finished. A real pussycat to ride to or around town, panther like in its grace. ;D ;D ;D
:D :D :D :D
So ... a modern Phelan & Moore . Actually , that ain't a bad idea , it would probably sell by the tens ;D
Dusty
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Piaggio have owned Guzzi for almost eleven years.
In that time they have killed the V11 Sport / LeMans line and killed the MGS-01, but they have not released anything as sporting to replace them.
Sorry, that was a missed opportunity when they killed the MGS/01. Would it have sold in large numbers? We will never know but it would have brought people into the showroom. I know that I would have owned one.
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Sorry, that was a missed opportunity when they killed the MGS/01. Would it have sold in large numbers? We will never know but it would have brought people into the showroom. I know that I would have owned one.
If they wanted to, why couldn't they bring it back?
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someone mentioned dealers on wheels ?
check this out :)
Milan circa 1951
(http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab53/arveno1/bikes/10361393_874366422608846_1119680747042422668_n_zps299f8750.jpg) (http://s849.photobucket.com/user/arveno1/media/bikes/10361393_874366422608846_1119680747042422668_n_zps299f8750.jpg.html)
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OK , let's look at this from a business perspective . What have been the biggest sellers for Guzzi since 1967 . The loop frame models , followed by the Tonti frame Californias , and now the V7 series , correct ? So , why would Piaggio put any R&D money into a sporting model that will sell in very limited numbers ? You guys wanting a true sporting bike are gonna have to look elsewhere , or learn to live with the current style of offerings . Even if the SB is seriously updated , what , maybe 60 HP from 850 CCs , and they will need serious suspension upgrades to use even that much power . I remember the last Le Mans in '04 gathering dust on Atlas motorcycles showroom . Yeah , guys would say it was cool , but it just sat there . Even the mags liked it , didn't help .
Dusty
I remember Ken having a 1981 G5 that sat there longer than any bike he ever had, why....I am guessing the 3600.00 dollar price tag he would not come down on. Sometimes it is not the bike... Just my thoughts.
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IMO, as long as Piaggio has Aprilia under the tent, there's no need to invest in cutting edge sportbikes from Moto Guzzi.
The best I'd expect to see is a Guzzi badged Aprilia, as was done with Benelli.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=45342.0
Tobit
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As someone new to the Guzzi brand, I am looking at it from afar. The Guzzi culture I see are enthusiasts who like traditional design, not the greatest performance numbers. That is a race with no end and one someone else will always win! (Supercharged H2R?) I think instead Guzzi might make better inroads attracting new (different?) riders with their classic naked frame designs. That is what attracts me, at least.
I am guessing reliability is somewhat similar to other Italian brands; that might be another thing that perhaps they are trying to improve. Ducati went through a phase circa 2007 where a massive ad campaign was launched specifically to address the issue that "Ducatis were expensive to own"... although that is true, and the engineering didn't catch up until around 2010. When I see a Guzzi at our shop it is mainly for simple things like an oil change or new tires, almost never do I see it in for a "cylinder head rebuild" like our Ducatis.
So perhaps these new designs are more to showcase the new, more reliable engineering of the motor? Although I am a bit disappointed to see so much plastic -- the Guzzi V-design is quite beautiful. And second only to the BMW boxer. ;D I too wish they would move to smaller displacement motors more reminiscent of the classics. I'm sure modern technology can make up for the lost cc's!
Time to run before people come after me with pitchforks for saying that. :wife:
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As someone new to the Guzzi brand, I am looking at it from afar. The Guzzi culture I see are enthusiasts who like traditional design, not the greatest performance numbers. That is a race with no end and one someone else will always win! (Supercharged H2R?) I think instead Guzzi might make better inroads attracting new (different?) riders with their classic naked frame designs. That is what attracts me, at least.
I am guessing reliability is somewhat similar to other Italian brands; that might be another thing that perhaps they are trying to improve. Ducati went through a phase circa 2007 where a massive ad campaign was launched specifically to address the issue that "Ducatis were expensive to own"... although that is true, and the engineering didn't catch up until around 2010. When I see a Guzzi at our shop it is mainly for simple things like an oil change or new tires, almost never do I see it in for a "cylinder head rebuild" like our Ducatis.
So perhaps these new designs are more to showcase the new, more reliable engineering of the motor? Although I am a bit disappointed to see so much plastic -- the Guzzi V-design is quite beautiful. And second only to the BMW boxer. ;D I too wish they would move to smaller displacement motors more reminiscent of the classics. I'm sure modern technology can make up for the lost cc's!
Time to run before people come after me with pitchforks for saying that. :wife:
The damn things have been built like an anvil for many years. What's new except the FI systems and the 8V engines?
Maybe you haven't seen an Eldorado or an Ambassador swing in your way.
I just damn glad we have Moto Guzzi and I am lucky enough to own two of them. Wish I had discovered them back in the 70's.
Dean
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Piaggio have owned Guzzi for almost eleven years.
In that time they have killed the V11 Sport / LeMans line and killed the MGS-01, but they have not released anything as sporting to replace them.
No, the mile-long Griso doesn't count. It's a standard.
The spine-frame bikes were the last link to the Guzzi racing heritage. Piaggio broke that chain and it does not look like they care to fix it.
While Piaggio/Guzzi do make nice bikes, they don't currently have anything available in the dealership that interests me.
Sucks, too, as I really love the marque.
If they'd ever do something about the engine in the small block, or come out with a worthy successor to the V11 line, I'd be more motivated. For now, I will just ride my Sport 1100 and enjoy its link to Guzzi's former glory.
Come on....give Piaggio a break. They have the dominant bike in WSBK, a V4 and the best naked version of it in the known universe. Why try and reinvent another sportbike just to call it GUZZI.
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If they wanted to, why couldn't they bring it back?
"If they wanted to" is the key. The MGS-01 was a victim of the "not invented here" phenomenon.
Though it would be a halo product for the brand, it would probably never sell very well.
Plus, its getting pretty old now, and I'm sure Miguel Galluzzi would like to exercise his talents on a new bike, rather than reissuing the chassis and styling of a preceding third party contributor...
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Come on....give Piaggio a break. They have the dominant bike in WSBK, a V4 and the best naked version of it in the known universe. Why try and reinvent another sportbike just to call it GUZZI.
Unfortunately, some people confuse superbike race bike with sport bike. It's not an all or nothing deal, World Superbike or nothing. That's silly.
Most of the people who post in these threads asking for a Guzzi sportsbike are not asking them to create a superbike and field a WSBK team. That's a whole 'nother thing, and you're right Piaggio have Aprilia for that game.
Sportsbike does not have to equal top tier world championship race bike.
My Sport 1100 was never a WSBK competitor, but there's no mistaking it's a sportsbike. Though the Toni LeMans 850/1000 and Daytona 1000 were successfully campaigned in the 1980s in endurance championships by privateers, they were never World Superbikes. No one thought they were.
If you want a comparative road-going bike, look at the BMW R1200S. A sportsbike that was not, and was never intended to be, a World Superbike competitor.
Piaggio have done wonders for the Guzzi brand. However, they did kill the V11 Sport / MGS-01 line shortly after taking over eleven years ago, and have yet to fill that void with a suitable sporting replacement.
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You know, I don't see a problem with sharing engines with Aprilia. I'd even take it a step further and see both Aprilia and have entries into Moto GP and/or WSBk. Whether competing or in separate series.
Here's a thought. Aprilia brand is going to Moto GP. No doubt the GP engine will have a much bigger bore (and shorter stroke) than the V4 in the Superbike Aprilia. So if they marketed a Guzzi "GP Production Commemorative", it could be made with a big bore version of the Aprilia production engine (but having more displacement by keeping the Aprilia stroke). Two separate bikes from the same hardware for different buyers.
Remember, the engines are "corporate" engines. Not Aprilia or Guzzi but Piaggio. There could be more sharing among the brands but the models would be unique. The Guzzi guys want a street oriented canyon carver, super sport tourer while the Aprilia guys want a track bike. Just consider two versions of basic design, one marketed to some guy that 28 years old and the other guy that's 48.
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The Guzzi guys want a street oriented canyon carver, super sport tourer while the Aprilia guys want a track bike.
...one marketed to some guy that 28 years old and the other guy that's 48.
That pretty much sums it up. ;-T
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Yeah, but people seem to really enjoy discussing it, judging by the thread responses. So may it isn't so tired?
Lannis
Naw, we're just old and can't remember what we talked about last year. Maybe part of Guzzi's "problem"? :BEER:
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Naw, we're just old and can't remember what we talked about last year. Maybe part of Guzzi's "problem"? :BEER:
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
We are getting like our grandfathers , telling the same old story over and over ;D
Dusty
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:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
We are getting like our grandfathers , telling the same old story over and over ;D
Dusty
Like my dearly departed old man. A man of very few words, but damn, he sure used them a lot.
I for one would not mind at all seeing a "Piaggio" V4 under a Moto Guzzi tank decal.
Speaking of the R1200S, that was one gorgeous bike I still lust over in silver and red.
http://www.stocklogic.com/R1200S/sideviewnomods.jpg
Tobit
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I would have no problem with Guzzi branching out and using motors from other divisions, the motor vechical is full of such cross polination. I would, however, want them to hold on to there core old school style Ltwin, it's what gives Guzzi a real identity.
Not many people out side of the Guzzi world know about Guzzi, but those that do know it by its signiture vtwin, drop that and you might as well start from scratch.
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The article is pretty much a PR piece for Millepercento. Why they felt the need to trash the modern Guzzis in order to elevate the MP bike is beyond me -- the latter are, after all, based on the former.
Putting that aside, I think Piaggio is making a mistake with the current division between Aprilia (sport / racing) and Moto Guzzi (heritage / retro). IMO, a little intra-company rivalry is exactly what Piaggio Group needs to wake up both Aprilia and Guzzi. Remember the heyday of General Motors? Chevy and Pontiac each trying to out-do the other in performance and value made for some great cars. For all of Aprilia's recent racing success and Guzzi's refreshed line-up, Triumph, Ducati, BMW and KTM are leaving them in the dust. The current strategy is not working, so why not?
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Reminds me of all the advice Apple constantly gets on what it has been doing wrong for the last 25 years, and what it needs to do differently right now to survive. Amazing the company hasn't gone belly up. Well, maybe this year will be Apple's last.
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The article is pretty much a PR piece for Millepercento. Why they felt the need to trash the modern Guzzis in order to elevate the MP bike sis beyond me -- the latter are, after all, based on the former.
Putting that aside, I think Piaggio is making a mistake with the current division between Aprilia (sport / racing) and Moto Guzzi (heritage / retro). IMO, a little inter-company rivalry is exactly what Piaggio Group needs to wake up both Aprilia and Guzzi. Remember the heyday of General Motors? Chevy and Pontiac each trying to out-do the other in performance and value made for some great cars. For all of Aprilia's recent racing success and Guzzi's refreshed line-up, Triumph, Ducati, BMW and KTM are leaving them in the dust. The current strategy is not working, so why not?
Uh Craig , you mean like the Fiero , or the Vega ??? Considering that Pontiac AND Oldsmobile are long gone , not sure that is a great strategy :D
Dusty
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The heyday was a decade or two before that. I fondle remember the GTO, Chevelle, 442, Camaro, Firebird, and the Cutlass of the '60s.
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The heyday was a decade or two before that. I fondle remember the GTO, Chevelle, 442, Camaro, Firebird, and the Cutlass of the '60s.
Most of us do fondly recall those cars , but you said the magic word "remember" :D The fact is , most of them were not really very good cars .
Dusty
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Most of us do fondly recall those cars , but you said the magic word "remember" :D The fact is , most of them were not really very good cars .
Dusty
Reminds me that the best thing that ever happened to Ferrari quality was the arrival of the Acura NSX.
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Reminds me that the best thing that ever happened to Ferrari quality was the arrival of the Acura NSX.
One of my old HD riding buddies once said, " If it wasn't for Honda we would all still be riding panheads" . Which was a bit ironic because he still rode a panhead :D
Dusty
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The truth is that Guzzi exists nowadays only as a nameplate for Piaggio-built products, in the same way that Buick only exists as a nameplate for GM-built products. (Cue all the Piaggio faithful to hog-pile on . . . )
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Does show biz motorcycling marketing really work? ;)
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/rde5722l_zpsbf52fc6c.jpg)
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The truth is that Guzzi exists nowadays only as a nameplate for Piaggio-built products, in the same way that Buick only exists as a nameplate for GM-built products. (Cue all the Piaggio faithful to hog-pile on . . . )
But that has been the case for decades Greg. Guzzi hasn't been an *Independent* manufacturer for decades. I'm not going to 'Hog Pile' on ;D but I really can't see the problem.
Pete
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$40,000.00 for a Guzzi? That's like.......33 Jackals! There are so many old Guzzi's around that still have so much life left in them. Buy cheap and ride like you ripped it off!
js
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I would have no problem with Guzzi branching out and using motors from other divisions, the motor vechical is full of such cross polination. I would, however, want them to hold on to there core old school style Ltwin, it's what gives Guzzi a real identity.
Not many people out side of the Guzzi world know about Guzzi, but those that do know it by its signiture vtwin, drop that and you might as well start from scratch.
From a marketing and brand perspective, Moto Guzzi today means v-twin across the frame to the broader motorcycling community, meaning not just the Guzzisti. Just like Harley-Davidson would be mad from a marketing basis to move to any other engine format than a v-twin, so to Guzzi would be shooting themselves in the foot to make any sudden departure from what makes them "Guzzi" to the broader market place.
If Piaggio want to bring Guzzi into a place as successful internationally as H-D are now, they are going to have to improve their marketing tremendously, and that includes their product lines. They will need to look at gradual improvements in tech based around the v engine format, and also look at where their products can take them, probably by looking at where their heritage has brought them. After all, what are the key attributes that MG has always has (the positive ones anyway - we're not talking Italian electrics here!)? How about sporting handling no matter what the type of bike? I'm very new to the brand (I'm still dreaming of buying my first Guzzi!) but all my reading tells me that a Guzzi "cruiser" for example always handled like a proper motorcycle rather than a land yacht!
I think Guzzi has great potential for a very healthy future and an immensely solid brand to build on. It could use a company like HD as an example of how to build on heritage and brand values successfully. Here in Australia HD is successfully achieving a significantly younger market - definitely not just an older bloke's bike, and most certainly still an aspirational one.
I hope to see MG go the same way.
My thoughts anyway!
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The truth is that Guzzi exists nowadays only as a nameplate for Piaggio-built products, in the same way that Buick only exists as a nameplate for GM-built products. (Cue all the Piaggio faithful to hog-pile on . . . )
Well, at least it is still around for us to tear it down, rip on how it's not what it once was, and the band played on... or we could talk about all the cool new bikes flying out the doors at the BSA plant...oh, we might want to hold off on that for a time.
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I think if Piaggio is willing to sink the cash, Guzzi could certainly bring to motors in. The key as I see it, would be not to abandoned the L90 motor that is today how Guzzi is known, but to market any new motors along side the current incarnation of the current lump and go for it. Guzzi has a vast history of cool motors, make something of it!
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Thirty five years ago any 90 degree, Common crankpin, V or L twin was Italian. If it was a transverse V it was a Guzzi, if it was an L twin it was a Ducati essentially. Things have changed.
I know a lot of people would like to see a horizontal single return but there are severe limitations to the format as it requires a long wheelbase to accomodate the length/height of the cylinder. Make it a DOHC engine and cramming it in gets harder still.
I'd love to see some new designs. I really don't care what the format is but I do regret that the owners of the brand didn't see fit to use the name on a range of up-market scooters. 'Performance' bikes have always been the blue riband models but Guzzi has a long and illustrious history in the past for building high quality 'Bread and Butter' machines and I've never understood the prejudice against simple, cheap transport that some people seem to have. It's the 'Bread and Butter' models that made Honda the behemoth it is today and while Guzzi could never hope to emulate that company's success, (It was a product of the age.) producing a successful range of commuter vehicles would enable the factory to at least have some clout with Piaggio as a major contributor to overall profit rather than simply sucking at the parental teat.
Pete
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There are lots of machines in Guzzi's past from which to draw inspiration...
(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1503583_841279699243812_3225053194325613593_n.jpg?oh=724313d998efa9398d3896729bf94d5b&oe=55681486)
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Man, if they sold a modern equivalent I don't care if the wheelbase is long, the weight bias is wrong, I'd be after it. I'd even accept telescopic forks and liquid cooling.
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But that has been the case for decades Greg. Guzzi hasn't been an *Independent* manufacturer for decades. I'm not going to 'Hog Pile' on ;D but I really can't see the problem.
Pete
Well, we'll just have to disagree on that. Guzzi was never before owned by a major multi-line, multi-vehicle mega-corporation such as Piaggio. And previous owners largely left Guzzi alone and left design and manufacture in Mandello. This owner is not like all the others. Some will think that good; others see it differently.
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Reminds me of all the advice Apple constantly gets on what it has been doing wrong for the last 25 years, and what it needs to do differently right now to survive. Amazing the company hasn't gone belly up. Well, maybe this year will be Apple's last.
Are you really comparing the success of Guzzi with Apple???
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Interesting Podcast on Motorcycles ... round table type of discussion on the new models, dealer attitudes toward test riders, new inflatable racing jackets now used in skiing, horse jumpers ......
http://thepacepodcast.com/archives/3176
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/gratitude3_zps8273b3c6.jpg)
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I love the idea of an Aprilia V4 under a Guzzi badge. Why not this set up Motus-style?
(http://image.sportrider.com/f/36293703/146_1104_05_z+aprilia_dorsoduro_1200+engine.jpg)
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Are you really comparing the success of Guzzi with Apple???
The phrase "like comparing apples to Guzzis" will never catch on ;D
Dusty
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From a marketing and brand perspective, Moto Guzzi today means v-twin across the frame to the broader motorcycling community
Thanks to the relative success of the V7, Moto Guzzi today means "entry level stylish bikes" to a broad community that, first to see it, barely knew what an engine was, and, given the same technical and aesthetic qualities, would have bought it with any engine arrangement.
This is an opportunity to produce something out of the usual pattern.
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Thanks to the relative success of the V7, Moto Guzzi today means "entry level stylish bikes" to a broad community that, first to see it, barely knew what an engine was, and, given the same technical and aesthetic qualities, would have bought it with any engine arrangement.
This is an opportunity to produce something out of the usual pattern.
:+1
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That's a interesting take on it DogW. I unlike you hadn't really thought about that market plan, but Piaggio surely has!
We have been talking a lot about how do we get new blood on Guzzi? But it does seem like Guzzi is going hard after the hippster crowd, and those hipsters will age like we have to want something more as time goes on, and many will want a Guzzi!
They don't show up to rallies yet in droves, but if they are buying v7s in big enough numbers it might all work out in the end. :)
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I'm drinked.
Personally, I've found my niche in the pecking order and it's (hic) the Tonti framed "cruisers" from 98 - 04. They'll outlast my need to own a bike and beyond that I don't care.
I'd like another '74 eldo someday.
and maybe wedge a 1200 2v mill between the front wheel and the torque converter. Yeah. That's the ticket.
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As someone who has been called a "hipster" once or twice in my life, I bought my first bike this year and the V7 fit the bill perfectly for me. *And* I did show up at a rally early this fall (Hey there, crazy cold, Michigan rally folk!). So, consider that a double win for Guzzi.
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I'm with eunos9494 - but too old to be called a hipster.
As a returning motorcyclist, I was looking for a bike to have for commuting on in nice weather, trips to the store, and really nothing in particular, but I didn't want to ride something that looked like an insect or a Transformer.
Horsepower doesn't interest me, neither does anything hi tech or cuting edge in motorcycle design unless it concerns safety. I also have no time or interest in wrenching my own bike when I can keep others employed doing that and they can do it better than I could. I just wanted something reliable and easy to ride and with understated but definite style. My choice came down to a V7 Stone or a Triumph T100 and I chose the former - but I'd have been happy with either one (though I had mixed feelings about a British bike being made in Thailand.. ).
So, I like the direction Piaggio is heading if that means simpler and more reliable and but not losing that great Euro styling. And if they came out with a Falcone replica with updated engineering, I'd probably have to have one of those, too.
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Thanks to the relative success of the V7, Moto Guzzi today means "entry level stylish bikes" to a broad community that, first to see it, barely knew what an engine was, and, given the same technical and aesthetic qualities, would have bought it with any engine arrangement.
This is an opportunity to produce something out of the usual pattern.
Absolutely. Most folks know nothing about the traditional V layout and don't even recognize the architecture when expressing curiosity about my LeMans. I point out that it's a V by drawing in the air with a finger in front of the block and they see it.
So, that said, a badge engineered Guzzi "Aprilia" V4 in more traditional clothes isn't a stretch. I'd love to see it, even with chain drive and twin shock rear end. An sexier CB1100.
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I'm with eunos9494 - but too old to be called a hipster.
As a returning motorcyclist, I was looking for a bike to have for commuting on in nice weather, trips to the store, and really nothing in particular, but I didn't want to ride something that looked like an insect or a Transformer.
Horsepower doesn't interest me, neither does anything hi tech or cuting edge in motorcycle design unless it concerns safety. I also have no time or interest in wrenching my own bike when I can keep others employed doing that and they can do it better than I could. I just wanted something reliable and easy to ride and with understated but definite style. My choice came down to a V7 Stone or a Triumph T100 and I chose the former - but I'd have been happy with either one (though I had mixed feelings about a British bike being made in Thailand.. ).
So, I like the direction Piaggio is heading if that means simpler and more reliable and but not losing that great Euro styling. And if they came out with a Falcone replica with updated engineering, I'd probably have to have one of those, too.
Yeah, I'm a returning motorcyclist too. Disassembled the '56 Panhead I've had since '74 about 10 yrs. ago and then had to take work out of the country 2/3 of the time. Never any time to wrench on it. Retired now and hope to get it back together before too long. Of the many I've owned over the years, the most reliable motorcycle I'd ever had was an MG 850T3 in the late 70's. And saw the new Norges and read all I could on them and had to have one. But I enjoy tinkering with the new fuel/ign/etc. electronic contols systems and am familiar with it. My new MG is not even to the first service mileage yet, but I'm looking forward to getting rid of the nasty looking exhaust collector hanging underneath it for an Agostini crossover. (Colostomy bag, I think the folks here call it and it fits.) And a less restrictive muffler with no catcon. Then balancing the TB's and loading new maps in with the harness I bought from Guzzitech. And a little more horsepower is a good thing, but my hotrod days are over. Looking forward to learning this machine and sure hope it holds up as well as it's older brother from back in the day. The Blue Ridge parkway is not far from me and that'll be a good breakin trip this spring. Life is good.
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I just read on one of the many Motorcycle Web sites that Triumph had its best year yet and the model with the biggest increase % in sales was their Scrambler model. (84%). http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-industry/triumphs-record-year/26124.html
Where are we going? Looks like ......
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/joe-dator-the-moai-statues-of-easter-island-are-changed-to-resemble-hipsters-they-n-new-yorker-cartoon_zps9c1e288e.jpg)
;)
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Viva la difference! ;-T
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/00b_zps85ea1893.jpg)
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Why the short stroke, twin plugged, tonti framed CARC fitted bellagio never made it to the USA has always been a mystery..
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y137/mozman87/oldroad2_zpsc236f5af.jpg)
tho it's a :beat_horse now..
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All I can say is, Ho. Lee Fuk.