Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vasco DG on January 05, 2015, 11:54:01 PM
-
Late last year a customer bought in his Stelvio. Long story short it was comprehensively 'Donald Ducked' by the addition of a pair of those bloody O2 sensor foolers. Anyway, I got the go ahead to start fixing it so over the Christmas break when most people were on holiday I started reducing it to this.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7550/16025809107_4ab80f72c0_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16025809107/)
Anyway Erika came down and took a shitload of pics but I'm having trouble uploading them to Flickr but when I do I'll add them.
Motor has been broken down into its main components.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7559/16209751121_562686b620_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16209751121/)
Well today Mark Foster who posts here as 'Oldtime' came over with his bore measuring kit.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7494/16024276730_db8ab87cb0_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16024276730/)
After he'd scattered it all over the shop by dropping its ancient wooden box, (It's German. Crap. No wonder it broke! ;D) we were amazed to find that although the lip in the top of the bore *Felt* a lot bigger it only measured at 0.01! Bore wasn't ovalised and a quick scrub with some wet'n'dry to remove the carbon showed that they'll be perfectly fine to go round again! Bonus! Pistons, (Pics later.) are also perfect, they've even still got the Teflon coating on the skirts! Same can't be said for the rings unfortunately. 100 thou end gap is, err?? A little bit excessive.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8581/16211622875_b3536a2545_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16211622875/)
Sump was full of nasties!
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7515/16185759146_080ecb633b_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16185759146/)
Nastiest thing was the ca chains though. The diluted oil had failed to lubricate the pins adequately and the chains were horribly worn. Even though I tried hand pumping the tensioners and spinning the motor on the starter after installing the roller top end it was to no avail. As soon as it fired it jumped three teeth and bye-bye valves! Well, can't say I didn't try :D. The difference between the length of the 'Old' chain and a new one is obvious when they are hung side by side!
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7538/16024276890_212fe7e9be_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16024276890/)
Took out one rod to check the big end shells. More good luck. Shells are perfect. I ain't replacing these!
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8652/16024276350_ffa40acd10_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16024276350/)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7531/16024276220_61e5bf68c6_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16024276220/)
Mor later.
-
Hey Pete did you get the dimensions and thread dia and pitch off the valve adjusters?
Ciao
-
Nah, sorry, I'll do that tomorrow and PM you. If I forget, well, y'know? Nag! :D
-
Just a question? Is anybody interested in this stuff? Fine if you're not, I don't expect any sort of slavish gratitude or anything but if nobody's interested I won't bother as it does take time. I just thought that it would be interesting. If it's not I won't waste my time.
Pete
-
Just a question? Is anybody interested in this stuff? Fine if you're not, I don't expect any sort of slavish gratitude or anything but if nobody's interested I won't bother as it does take time. I just thought that it would be interesting. If it's not I won't waste my time.
Pete
I'm always interested in this stuff Pete. Same as I keep all my old workshop manuals etc.
Even though I may not ever own some of these bikes/engines its all good interesting engineering information.
I love seeing various engineering solutions and approaches to similar design criterior.
Ciao
-
As far as I am concerned it is hard to be too well informed. One thing I find interesting is the muck in the oil pan, you would think if the oil was diluted with gas that would wash away. Must have built up pretty good before he installed the O2 sensor cheaters.
-
I'm always interested in a frontbottom of a job.
-
I love it, best way to see the new engines.
The O2 fooler things pumped excess fuel and diluted the oil? Wow. Too many folk think rich is good..
-
Just a question? Is anybody interested in this stuff? Fine if you're not, I don't expect any sort of slavish gratitude or anything but if nobody's interested I won't bother as it does take time. I just thought that it would be interesting. If it's not I won't waste my time.
Pete
You have a loyal subscriber from the far east ;-T
-
This kind of stuff keeps me on the forum! ;-T
-
This kind of stuff keeps me on the forum! ;-T
Me to.
-
Just a question? Is anybody interested in this stuff? Fine if you're not, I don't expect any sort of slavish gratitude or anything but if nobody's interested I won't bother as it does take time. I just thought that it would be interesting. If it's not I won't waste my time.
Pete
Pete,
These threads are great! Please continue.
-
I'm in as well :pop
-
My favorite kind of thread actually... ;D
*looking at my own dissection project thread*
Thanks for sharing!
-Joe
-
Pete,
These threads are great! Please continue.
What he said.
-
Please carry on, at least when you are not dodging wild fires. :D
-
Keep it coming. As I am very mechanically challenged, I can at least see parts I normally would kept far away from.
-
Yes please do.... I have a 12 NTX and ran those Phat Duc thingys for a brief spell before I went back to stock.
-
Pete, I'm interested and appreciate the extra effort it takes to post this stuff. Thanks!
Peter Y.
-
Absolutely Pete.. Please keep it coming!
Thanks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Yea, cool stuff, I don't understand much of it, but it looks interesting. ;-T
-
Just a question? Is anybody interested in this stuff? Fine if you're not, I don't expect any sort of slavish gratitude or anything but if nobody's interested I won't bother as it does take time. I just thought that it would be interesting. If it's not I won't waste my time.
I fine it VERY interesting. Much better then reading about someones ingrown toenail. ~;
I'm surprise to hear that the cam chain can jump with that small amount of wear. Are the sprockets damaged too?
-
Pete...keep it coming.
I am pretty sure it was you that once said the only big problems you have ever see with the 8V engines were on ones that had been modified somehow......think this makes your point.
-
Sorry, I was just a bit surprised that there were so many views and no responses of any kind. I do enjoy doing stuff like these photo-essays but they are quite labour intensive so there is little point if nobody's interested. If anyone has any questions?fire away and I'll do my best to answer them.
As for the shite in the sump? Well, yes, the fuel in the oil does wash things clean but it has to end up somewhere and *Somewhere* is in the sump. The best detergents in the world won't keep that amount of crap in suspension in the oil. I still have the filter that came off it when it came in. I might do a Bill and cut it open, it won't be pretty I'm sure.
Pete
PS. Wayne, 'Morse Silent' or as they are sometimes known 'Inverted Tooth' chains are more efficient than a conventional chain but once they wear beyond the design limits of the tensioners they will joyfully climb over the sprocket teeth when load is applied. With this engine I knew I was on a hiding to nothing when, when I was tightening the camchain sprocket retainer bolt on the left hand pot the chain started ratcheting. I also knew that it would be hard to convince the owner or anybody else that consequences of not replacing the chain would be dire without at least trying. I also have two sets of valves off warranty take-off heads that were porous that have less than 5,000km on so they are essentially new. I'll recycle them in this rebuild to save the owner a few bob but given the amount of slobberingly rich fuel that has been washing through I felt the risk, well, almost certainty, of valve damage was worth the risk as the guides were going to need checking anyway. I have to admit I'm actually quite surprised at how little wear there is on the inlet guides. I was expecting the valve stems to be flopping around like a cock in a sock! They aren't! Miracle!
-
As a brief aside people often ask how I go about supporting the bike during disassembley. Here's a pic just before I dropped the motive unit out, (I'm in fact just removing the swingarm.). You can clearly see the jack under the sump and the tie-downs I use from the handlebars to the front of the bench.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7569/16026166439_608ae75cc3_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16026166439/)
The sump casting is quite strong enough to support the bike as long as you take care to spread the load. Stability is the most important issue.
Pete
-
Keep the pics coming Pete! I know it's a bit of an interruption to stop and take pictures. Much appreciated.
Rich
-
You can clearly see the jack under the sump and the tie-downs I use from the handlebars to the front of the bench.
I made this jack to go under the sump and hold the motor when I dropped the Stelvio engine.
Well, I wanted to play with my new torch also. ;D
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/IMAG0101.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/worwig/media/publicshare/IMAG0101.jpg.html)
You run the wingnuts down on the threaded rods and lift the motor by the sump. Then you disconnect everything and unbolt the motor. Then to lower it, you just turn the wingnuts. That was the idea, but that doesn't work so well because the cheap allthread rods have crappy rolled threads that 'lock' when you put any load on them. What was supposed to save me time became really tedious. ::)
-
Pete, while I don't post or reply much, I would like to take this opportunity to say how much I appreciate yours and others labor to document this and other relevant procedures related to my 8 valve Stelio. I come here to learn, thats the bottom line for me. I really don't have that much to offer except to say thanks to you and the others that contribute.
-
Just a question? Is anybody interested in this stuff? Fine if you're not, I don't expect any sort of slavish gratitude or anything but if nobody's interested I won't bother as it does take time. I just thought that it would be interesting. If it's not I won't waste my time.
Pete, this stuff is gold. If not required today, it will be a fantastic reference for the future. I think you are the only person posting engine work on the 1200 8V and its much appreciated.
-
Thank you Pete for this infomation and yes, I am very interested in this. How many miles were on the motor prior to the overhaul?
This is one more reason that I have kept my Griso 8V stock (except for the Staintune muffler) I have always been leary of the different gismos to change the fueling. The Griso has more power than I can ever use :o and I can put up with the little surging and small amount of popping that is attributed to the lean conditions due to emissions requirements.
Thanks, TonyC
-
Again, as I said I enjoy doing this stuf but it is time consuming. I don't need thanks but I do have a whole load of other stuff I can be getting on with if people aren't interested. It seems that they are which is great, I'll keep going.
As for how many miles on the bike? It's got about 30,000 km but it looks like a 300,000km engine, at least parts of it. The rotten O2 sensor foolers were on it for only about 4,000km I believe.
Tony, your bike doesn't have to surge ,hunt and misbehave. Beetle can offer you a map that will transform it, without risk, without any crappy additions in the form of black boxes or widgets, and all for a modest donation towards development costs. While the symptoms are related to lean fueling this is not actually a function of the map. The map itself is rich as! It's the fact that the un-clever narrow band O2 sensor crudely trims the fuel back almost to the point of incombustability at certain throttle points. You don't have to live with this or spend a fortune to fix it.
Pete
-
The O2 fooler things pumped excess fuel and diluted the oil? Wow. Too many folk think rich is good..
A wee bit rich is OK. The Stupid Rich that these things can cause is A Bad Thing. They don't necessarily cause an over-rich condition across the rev range, but Murphy says it's where you will likely spend the most time - cruising speed etc. Folks find that an over-rich 8V engine is lovely and smooth, right up until it goes 'bang'. Let me be clear - I'm talking about the 8V, because there's a lot of engines out there where grenading is less likely. It's still bad for them, but it's worse for the 8V because it's more susceptible due to the head design and valve timing.
Sorry for the thread hijack, Pete. Rant over. Carry on! :D
-
A wee bit rich is OK. The Stupid Rich that these things can cause is A Bad Thing. They don't necessarily cause an over-rich condition across the rev range, but Murphy says it's where you will likely spend the most time - cruising speed etc. Folks find that an over-rich 8V engine is lovely and smooth, right up until it goes 'bang'. Let me be clear - I'm talking about the 8V, because there's a lot of engines out there where grenading is less likely. It's still bad for them, but it's worse for the 8V because it's more susceptible due to the head design and valve timing.
Sorry for the thread hijack, Pete. Rant over. Carry on! :D
Hijack away :D With the O2 sensor foolers I know that they don't seem to have such an adverse effect on bikes that use the M15-RC, I have several customers with V7's of various types that use them. I still advise against them but they don't seem to cause such serious problems and their owners are happy, (Shrug.).
I first tried a 'Fat-Duc' on my own bike, can't remember if it was the 1100 or the 1200 but I think it was the 1200 because it's original fueling with the GRS8V-01 map was so woefully abysmal. It was obvious to me that it was doing something wrong just by the feel of the bike. It was also obvious to the bike as it kept causing it to throw up a 'Service' error and drop into 'Limp' mode.
I don't fully understand the *Why* of how they can cause such monstrous overfuelling and not make the bike run like a complete Munter and smoke like a 40 year stretch prison inmate but they do. This bike is living proof!
Pete
-
So what exactly happened on the failure?
It wasn't hydraulic lock was it?
-
No, it caused the massive over-fueling on cruise. This washed the bores and wore the rings out, (Rings now have 100 thou end gap! :o) Excess fuel poured unburn into the oil past the rings along with a lot of blow-by. This in turn pressurised the case and over taxed the breather/oil condensor system. At the same point the oil was unable to adequately protect the cams and tappets so they began to fail. As wear occurs the duration reduces but the ECU doesn't know that so it continues to pour in fuel as told making the mixture richer still so wear accelerated and the problem increased.
The owner first noticed something when the oil pressure light came on, (Another reason I'm amazed the big ends are so good!) he checked the level and it was, err? empty! So he filled it up again and rode back to Bungendore. More oil in the sump-greater crankcase pressure-more expulsion. He also hadn't drained the airbox which was where the fuelly oil was ending up and eventually the tide came in high enough that it was pouring down thevinlet manifolds and started dripping out of the throttle body spindles!
By the time it got to me it was comprehensively knackered. It's going to be a very large, very expensive job to fix. Luckily for him it's a Guzzi which means it is pretty much bomb proof! The abuse it's taken I was half expecting the whole thing to be basically scrap. As it is I'm cautiously optimistic.
Pete
-
I don't even own a Stelvio Pete but I love these threads ;D ;-T
-
I don't come here much but when I do, this is what I'm looking for - some peculiar Englishaustralian tearing a bike to bits and putting it back together (with only a few extra parts left over). I'm thinking of selling a bunch of stuff and getting one of these Stelvios so this is quite timely.
-
Favorite kind of thread Pete, really appreciate you taking the time. Maybe some special attention to reassemble of the heads for all of us looking forward to doing are own roller upgrades? Pretty sure I can tear it apart, but putting it together RIGHT is another story. Got a shitload of winter left to think about it.
-
I don't come here much but when I do, this is what I'm looking for - some peculiar Englishaustralian tearing a bike to bits and putting it back together (with only a few extra parts left over).
:+1 And, when we can read comments like "knackered" in a Guzzi thread and not a Triumph thread, so much the better.
-
This will definitely be a thread I will enjoy following!
-
Just a question? Is anybody interested in this stuff? Fine if you're not, I don't expect any sort of slavish gratitude or anything but if nobody's interested I won't bother as it does take time. I just thought that it would be interesting. If it's not I won't waste my time.
Pete
This sort of thing is invaluable Pete, so please keep em coming if you don't mind.
Thanks
Larry
-
Late last year a customer bought in his Stelvio. Long story short it was comprehensively 'Donald Ducked' by the addition of a pair of those bloody O2 sensor foolers. Anyway, I got the go ahead to start fixing it so over the Christmas break when most people were on holiday I started reducing it to this.
After he'd scattered it all over the shop by dropping its ancient wooden box, (It's German. Crap. No wonder it broke! ;D) we were amazed to find that although the lip in the top of the bore *Felt* a lot bigger it only measured at 0.01! Bore wasn't ovalised and a quick scrub with some wet'n'dry to remove the carbon showed that they'll be perfectly fine to go round again! Bonus! Pistons, (Pics later.) are also perfect, they've even still got the Teflon coating on the skirts! Same can't be said for the rings unfortunately. 100 thou end gap is, err?? A little bit excessive.
Nastiest thing was the ca chains though. The diluted oil had failed to lubricate the pins adequately and the chains were horribly worn. Even though I tried hand pumping the tensioners and spinning the motor on the starter after installing the roller top end it was to no avail. As soon as it fired it jumped three teeth and bye-bye valves! Well, can't say I didn't try :D. The difference between the length of the 'Old' chain and a new one is obvious when they are hung side by side!
Mor later.
I'm interested too but think you should clarify for Merkans you're measuring Metric ), 0.01 or hundreth is huge in inches!
I wonder about the hydraulic tensioners too, could that be more the problem than worn chain for slipping teeth ?
Sounds odd that it came in running but slipped immediately after you reassembled.
with MX/Enduro bikes and these chains (my only experience) hydraulic adjuster probs not uncommon with this same result
With ratchet type ones people add shims to get more life out of Donalded chains without jumping a tooth.
Race bikes fit manual tensioner to be certain (and get rid a parasitic load of excessive drag on chain).
Minimal preload on chain much better for everything, chains last longer too.
Not criticising just throwing in my exp, better to check than do it again
Did importer pay for rollers or customer ?
-
The reason it blew after the rebuild was because no matter how hard you try you can't gaurantee the tensioner is pumped up. Agree though that it was weird that it was such a pronounced failure. It was the right side though.
As for the rollers? IllPKyou.
Pete
-
Wow I had no idea these o2 foolers had such a drastic affect on the air fuel ratio, I thought there job was to simply richen it up a bit from the ridiculous 14.7 when in closed loop mode and make it more ride able.
Pete, is there no sort of adjustment on these things or is it one size fits all
-
Dean, if you don't understand how it works? Leave it the f*ck alone! OK?
Oh, I've gotta phone you about the pipe, sorry, I'm run ragged at the moment.
Pete
-
Dean, if you don't understand how it works? Leave it the f*ck alone! OK?
Oh, I've gotta phone you about the pipe, sorry, I'm run ragged at the moment.
Pete
You don't have to worry about me screwing with them (besides Mark's map has them turned off anyway) I was just trying to better understand how they worked.
As to the pipe, I have braised the collar back on and all is well.
Once again thanks for your time the other day.
-
No worries. Is it still in warranty?
-
Slowly getting the pics uploaded.
Here's an example of what is considered adequate greasing of the Swingarm bearings. ::)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7477/15592397963_5b521424e5_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/15592397963/)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8615/16186380186_f6524ca4a3_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16186380186/)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7493/16026432057_cf5e24ed0d_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16026432057/)
There's a heap of shit to take off before you can get at the engine on a Stelvio. Gimme a Griso or Breva/Sport any day!
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7492/16025009780_f3c8ffe98f_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16025009780/)
-
Just a question? Is anybody interested in this stuff? Fine if you're not, I don't expect any sort of slavish gratitude or anything but if nobody's interested I won't bother as it does take time. I just thought that it would be interesting. If it's not I won't waste my time.
Pete
I read every tear-down thread with pics.. Even if I don't own the bike or fully understand wtf ppl are posting about. Don't always comment but it's certainly appreciated!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Here's an example of what is considered adequate greasing of the Swingarm bearings. ::)
I am convinced, that somewhere along the way, some well meaning bearing engineer determined that only a very small amount of grease should be used in a high speed bearing that is well sealed. Any more will just cause heat, drag, and leaking seals. So they publish how important it is not to over do it with grease and everybody treats that as the gospel. I have heard bearing engineers state this very thing, without regard to the actual application. The thing is, that grease film idea which may be perfect for a car wheel bearing, doesn't apply to a low speed, somewhat exposed application like a swingarm bearing, or the needle bearing in the Centauro/V11 Lemans rear gearbox support. So we end up with a rusted out bearing.
BTW, did you ever find a good way to pull the race out of the frame?
-
BTW, did you ever find a good way to pull the race out of the frame?
Yup, I adopted the Hipster Way. Angle grind the bottom of the frame off so the bearing race falls out them weld it back on wonkily with a cheap arc welder without enough amperage. Glue new race to the outside with blue-tac. Stroke beard. :D
In a word no. Going in from the other side with a marlinspike with a bent tip still essms like the best, if shitty, option. That or shrink-weld it out.
Pete
-
No worries. Is it still in warranty?
No
-
Bugger. When did it run out? I can ask about goodwill if it's only a month or two.
Pete
-
Bugger. When did it run out? I can ask about goodwill if it's only a month or two.
Pete
Four months ago. I wouldn't worry about it as was able to fix it myself at no cost, besides I would much rather save any possible good will request to something more major such as a cam failure (God forbid)
Dean
-
Four months ago. I wouldn't worry about it as was able to fix it myself at no cost, besides I would much rather save any possible good will request to something more major such as a cam failure (God forbid)
Dean
You'll get that regardless AS LONG as you have a FSH. No history? You can whistle. It's no real effort for me to fling in a warranty request on the pipe, it's one part, not like I have to spend hours listing bits for a job. You might get lucky. It's the factory's call but I can but try.
Flick me yer vin, mileage etc. and a pic of your service book and I'll see what I can do.
Pete
-
I too like these threads, I hit 'notify' after looking at the first post.
-
Sorry, I'll try to get a bit more of this done this weekend. I've been busy as all week.
Pete